2118|2118|2005-01-06 14:41:32|ogzigensenza1|Chuck and Lee?|
I'm curious. Are the Chuck and Lee in "A.A. Comes of Age"/Los
Angeles A.A., Chuck and Elsa C.?
| 2119|2119|2005-01-14 10:50:11|hjfree2001|Jim's Stroy|
In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,

Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and
became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the
story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early
meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)

Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?

blessed2bsober
rob
| 2120|2120|2005-01-16 09:31:07|Bill Corcoran|Thank you and question on Big Book royalties|
Hello,

First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the
membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the
message archives and found it fascinating.
I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an
AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous
individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He
mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the
royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to
indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base
as I suspect he was. Any takers?

Thanks,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI
| 2121|2120|2005-01-16 19:20:11|Arthur Sheehan|Re: Thank you and question on Big Book royalties|
Hi Bill

The basis for the specific matter you inquire about derives from an August 1941 letter from Bill W to Dr Bob. Bill asked Dr Bob if he could take $500 from accumulated Big Book royalties.

There is a web site community that propagates revisionist screeds about Bill W (among others). Something as plain as I described previously, has been convoluted by them into portraying Bill as out to pull one over on Dr Bob.

How someone writing a letter, asking permission to take funds, could be portrayed as trying to "stiff" his closest associate is beyond my imagination (but apparently not beyond the conspiratorial imagination of others). I suspect the web site provided the origin of the negative opinion formed by the person you mention.

Unfortunately, the topic is not related to history, it really involves mean-spirited slander. Sadly, there seems to be an ever-growing increase in the number of people who try to make themselves look good solely through the mechanism of trying to make someone else look bad.

Arthur

PS - if you want more info let me know through direct email to the "from" address above.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill CorcoranWCOC121558@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comAAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Thank you and question on Big Book royalties



Hello,

First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the
membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the
message archives and found it fascinating.
I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an
AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous
individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He
mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the
royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to
indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base
as I suspect he was. Any takers?

Thanks,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI





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| 2122|2119|2005-01-16 20:48:33|Arthur Sheehan|Re: Jim's Stroy|
Hi Rob

Dr Jim mentions initially having meetings at Ella G's home as "... the first meeting of a colored group in AA ..." Dr Jim does not identify the location as "Ella and Charlie's" home but only as "Ella G's."

In the story (pg 244 in the 4th edition Big Book) it infers that Ella G was black and explicitly states that Charlie G was white. My interpretation is that Ella and Charlie were very close friends through the fellowship and common bond of AA.

The racial intolerance that existed at the time (which is very well documented in "Pass It On") I believe would have precluded them from being husband and wife and their difference in race would preclude them from being siblings.

In early AA, it was supposed to be fairly common for alcoholics and spouses to attend meetings together. Afterwards, the alcoholics would gather privately into a "closed" meeting of alcoholics only. When AA was under the umbrella of the Oxford Group, other non-alcoholic Oxford Group members could (and did) attend the "open" portion of the meetings as well.

Cheers
Arthur
----- Original Message -----
From: hjfree2001hjfree@fuse.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comAAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:39 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's Stroy



In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,

Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and
became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the
story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early
meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)

Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?

blessed2bsober
rob







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2123|2123|2005-01-17 10:47:28|Rwj|Big Book Royalties|
Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago
-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the
first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped
write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit
the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who
owned the copyright and would get the royalties.

Can you shed light on this?

Rocky



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| 2124|2123|2005-01-17 14:37:17|Arthur Sheehan|Re: Big Book Royalties|
Hi Rocky

It was Hank Parkhurst. He was very instrumental in getting the Big Book published and is also credited with writing chapter 10 "To Employers." Hank got drunk after 4 years sobriety and harbored many resentments against Bill. He married a sister of Clarence Snyder who founded AA in Cleveland. Clarence was a thorn in Bill's side for decades.

in 1940 or 1941 Clarence S accused Bill of ripping off money from sales of the Big Book. He tried to set up Bill by calling a special meeting in Cleveland and asking Bill and Dr Bob to attend. The meeting was going to be used to accuse Bill of many negative rumors that were circulating. Bill got wind of the true purpose of the meeting and had a CPA audit the books and provide a finance statement. Bill showed the audit report at the Cleveland meeting and all but Clarence apologized to him.

If you are looking for this kind of detailed info you can find a bunch of it in a timeline document I periodically distribute. You can download a copy from oso-aa.org/library/pafiledb.php or silkworth.net/aahistory/general.html

The copies are a "public" version (member last names are reduced to last initial). Silkworth.net has the material in html, PDF or Word format. I'll be issuing an updated/corrected and expanded version in a few months or so. I'll post a message on AAHistoryLovers when it is ready for distribution. Anyone who replies to the message gets a copy.

Cheers
Arthur
----- Original Message -----
From: Rwj
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Royalties


Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago
-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the
first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped
write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit
the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who
owned the copyright and would get the royalties.

Can you shed light on this?

Rocky



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2125|2125|2005-01-20 12:51:14|Jim|Big Book Editions|
What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California
| 2126|2126|2005-01-20 13:19:02|Peter Tippett|A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking.|
Do we have any idea who he was?
Curiously,
Pete


=====
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time."



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| 2127|2127|2005-01-21 10:40:07|Richard Johnson|Introduction|
When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m a
alocoholic...???
| 2128|2125|2005-01-21 10:51:56|ArtSheehan|Re: Big Book Editions|
Hi Jim

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical
change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has
also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by
Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too
far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.
"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in
the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and
"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative
speculation.

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W
sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his
presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to
inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the
personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report
stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery
principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd
edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],
remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand
as first written."

The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because
this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such
large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a
sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first
portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left
untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third
editions."

There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text
(including two changes to Step 12):

1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual
awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed
Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the
1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of
Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition.

2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"
was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express
growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"
etc). Also, foot notes were added.

Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to
edition.

Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and
"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd
edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."
It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to
the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was
likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory
actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized
making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other
hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the
original punctuation.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Jim [mailto:khanti1008@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:45 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions


What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?





Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California



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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2129|2129|2005-01-21 13:21:02|Jay Lawyer|Re: Big Book Editions (ex-problem....)|
Hi Art,
Thanks for your response to Jim. Now I have a question for you. I have inquired why the change to "ex-problem" drinker in the 11th printing of 1st Edition from "Ex-Alcoholic", but no replies. Do you have any kind of explaination for this change? Also if so could you provide any kind of reason for this action? Thanks

Jay


----- Original Message -----
From: ArtSheehan
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions


Hi Jim

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical
change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has
also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by
Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too
far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.
"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in
the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and
"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative
speculation.

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W
sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his
presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to
inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the
personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report
stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery
principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd
edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],
remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand
as first written."

The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because
this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such
large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a
sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first
portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left
untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third
editions."

There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text
(including two changes to Step 12):

1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual
awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed
Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the
1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of
Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition.

2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"
was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express
growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"
etc). Also, foot notes were added.

Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to
edition.

Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and
"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd
edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."
It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to
the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was
likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory
actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized
making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other
hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the
original punctuation.

Cheers

Arthur


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2130|2127|2005-01-22 10:20:26|Roy Tellis|Re: How did the "I'M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________" Custom Star|
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Johnson"
wrote:
>
> When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m
a
> alocoholic...???
-------------------------------------------
from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June
2001 :

"I'M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________"

How Did The "I'm An Alcoholic" Custom Start?

Who was the first to start a meeting or a qualification with the
statement, "I'm an alcoholic"? How did the worldwide custom begin?

As late co-founder Bill W. used to observe: "Nobody invented AA.
It just grew." And so probably did its classic introduction at
meetings.

"Many members ask these questions." says G.S.O. archivist, Frank
M. "Unfortunately, only a few earlytimers are left, and not many of
them are able to produce plausible theories. So we can only
speculate."

According to an early friend of AA, the late Henrietta Seiberling,
the expression dates back to meetings of AA's forerunner, The Oxford
Group Movement, which had it's heyday in the early 1930's. Mrs.
Seiberling, a non-alcoholic who had sought spiritual help in the
Oxford Group meetings, introduced Bill to AA's other founder, Dr.
Bob, then struggling to get sober in the Oxford Group.

At small meetings, the members knew one another and didn't need to
identify themselves. But in the large "public" meetings, there
was "witnessing," along the lines of an AA talk today, so personal
identification became necessary. Chances are that someone at
sometime said, "I'm an alcoholic" but, Mrs. Seiberling wasn't sure.
Nor did she remember that the phrase was used at early AA meetings
in Akron, before publication of the Big Book. In fact, she said the
word "alcoholic" was rarely uttered, at least in Akron. People
referred to themselves as "drunks" or "rum hounds" or "boozers" or
other epithets reminiscent of the Temperance Movement that gained
adherents during prohibition.

An early New York AA first heard expression as "I'm an alcoholic and
my name is...". According to his recollection, that was after World
War II, in 1945 or 1946. And it is a matter of record that, in
1947, a documentary film, "I'm an alcoholic" was produced by RKO.
From there on, as Bill might say, the custom "just grew."

from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June
2001

Roy T.
Baldwin, NY
| 2131|2131|2005-01-22 10:22:56|Roy Tellis|Re: Author of "Life Saving Words" - BB 3rd Ed.|
Dear Nancy,
My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in Bombay India
in April 1990. I was going through the brief biograpies of the
authors ot the stories and I notices that you did not have the name
or accurate sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words" from
the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends involved in service in
India and am forwarding you some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots started a
meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but it did not survive the
war. Till 1957 a few individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early 1957, a
Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to the Candian Embassy at
New Delhi. Prior to his coming to India, Charley wrote to our co-
founder, Bill W. informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A. activities, and if
there are any contacts there, that I can get in touch with, I would
surely welcome the opportunity". The reply from General Service
Office, N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti M.
to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence indicates that Charley
M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th January 1957 and was able to locate
Sylvia and Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to those with a
drinking problem. It was through one of these "ads" that Lieutenant
Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment of the Indian Army had the
opportunity to come in contact with Charley M. From his response,
Trevor K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his death on
31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K. appears in the BIG BOOK
entitled - "Life-saving words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had
the good fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M., who
suggested that he register as a "loner" due to his army postings.
Trevor's service postings took him to new places in India and he
became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in India sowing the
seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore, Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India
| 2132|2132|2005-01-22 12:42:11|Ernest Kurtz|Conference of possible interest to some|
Hi,

Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to some of
us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA supporters
will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who can
verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my biography,
but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging ditches
today.

For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan. 9th. She
worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest. We
will miss her.

ernie kurtz

MARCH 10-12, 2005
SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY

www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm

Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and alcohol
problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be related or
ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the latest
research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality and
addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological and
clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three full
day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.

Keynote Speakers:
· Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research Center,
University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of
Addictive Behaviors"
· Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology at the
Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of Addiction and
Recovery"

Other Presenters:
· Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California - Berkeley: "The Good,
the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
· Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Explaining the
Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
· Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's God Got to
Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among African
American Youth"
· Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-Month
Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
· Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
· Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The Spiritual
Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis in
Addiction Research"

Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
· Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan Marlatt &
Jean Kristeller)
· Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley & Kathy Goggin)

Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
· Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and Addiction (Tom
Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
(Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop may do
so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the workshop)

The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health Education
1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and includes
continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend only
one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee, continental
breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available for
psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors (see
the conference web-site for details). For more information about the
conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-2449.

To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.
| 2134|2132|2005-01-23 12:44:34|cometkazie1@cox.net|Re: Conference of possible interest to some|
>
> From: "Tom P." <tomper99@yahoo.com>
> Date: 2005/01/22 Sat PM 11:01:54 EST
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>

Are there any references that go into the specific differences between the metabolism in non-alcoholics and alcoholics? As a chemist I have been intrigued but haven't been able to uncover anything specific for over a decade.

Tommy in Baton Rouge
| 2135|2132|2005-01-23 13:47:54|ArtSheehan|Re: Conference of possible interest to some|
Hi

I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.

For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there will
be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
dishonest).

I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
contrarian theories.

Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He asserts
that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.

I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
and telling Bill to go start a meeting.

We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating illness
and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
spiritual living.

Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta Sieberling,
T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs and
Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some




Thanks for the info Ernie.
I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
Tom P.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
some of
> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
supporters
> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
can
> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my
biography,
> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
ditches
> today.
>
> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
9th. She
> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
We
> will miss her.
>
> ernie kurtz
>
> MARCH 10-12, 2005
> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>
> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>
> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
alcohol
> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
related or
> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the
latest
> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
and
> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
and
> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
full
> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>
> Keynote Speakers:
> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
Center,
> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
of
> Addictive Behaviors"
> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
at the
> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of
Addiction and
> Recovery"
>
> Other Presenters:
> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
Berkeley: "The Good,
> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
University: "Explaining the
> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's
God Got to
> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
African
> American Youth"
> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-
Month
> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The
Spiritual
> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
in
> Addiction Research"
>
> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
Marlatt &
> Jean Kristeller)
> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
Kathy Goggin)
>
> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
Addiction (Tom
> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
may do
> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
workshop)
>
> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
Education
> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and
includes
> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend
only
> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
continental
> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available
for
> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
(see
> the conference web-site for details). For more information about
the
> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
2449.
>
> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.






_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2136|2132|2005-01-23 14:09:47|Mel Barger|Re: Conference of possible interest to some|
Hi,
I appreciate Arthur's observations here. I have occasionally pulled up
Stanton Peele's website in the hope of finding him saying something good
about AA, but he rarely does.
I do think being an alcoholic gives us a good understanding of the nature
of compulsion. I am not a compulsive gambler, for example, but in knowing
how the first drink affected me, I can well understand how some gamblers can
be swept into insane, irrational behavior after experiencing or expecting a
win.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some


>
> Hi
>
> I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
> academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
> perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.
>
> For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there
> will
> be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
> dishonest).
>
> I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
> non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
> with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
> be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
> when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
> contrarian theories.
>
> Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
> debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He
> asserts
> that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
> somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
> founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
> later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
> months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.
>
> I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
> disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
> are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
> Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
> Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
> and telling Bill to go start a meeting.
>
> We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
> to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
> something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
> doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating
> illness
> and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
> illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
> clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
> spiritual living.
>
> Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta
> Sieberling,
> T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
> Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs
> and
> Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
> experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
> alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
> afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
> _____
>
> From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
>> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
>> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
>> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
> some of
>> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
> supporters
>> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
> can
>> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my
> biography,
>> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
>> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
>> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
> ditches
>> today.
>>
>> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
>> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
> 9th. She
>> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
> We
>> will miss her.
>>
>> ernie kurtz
>>
>> MARCH 10-12, 2005
>> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
>> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>>
>> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>>
>> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
> alcohol
>> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
>> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
> related or
>> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
>> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the
> latest
>> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
> and
>> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
> and
>> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
> full
>> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
>> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
>> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
>> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>>
>> Keynote Speakers:
>> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
> Center,
>> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
> of
>> Addictive Behaviors"
>> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
> at the
>> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of
> Addiction and
>> Recovery"
>>
>> Other Presenters:
>> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
> Berkeley: "The Good,
>> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
>> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
> University: "Explaining the
>> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
>> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's
> God Got to
>> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
> African
>> American Youth"
>> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-
> Month
>> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
>> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
>> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
>> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The
> Spiritual
>> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
>> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
> in
>> Addiction Research"
>>
>> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
>> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
> Marlatt &
>> Jean Kristeller)
>> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
> Kathy Goggin)
>>
>> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
>> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
> Addiction (Tom
>> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
>> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
> may do
>> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
> workshop)
>>
>> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
> Education
>> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
>> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and
> includes
>> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
>> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend
> only
>> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
> continental
>> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available
> for
>> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
> (see
>> the conference web-site for details). For more information about
> the
>> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
> 2449.
>>
>> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
>> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2137|2137|2005-01-25 09:22:59|hrlywolfiz|The most important lesson-2nd edition?|
A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has
something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
how to pray you learn a little about that too.

Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different
groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.

I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
meeting.

thanks
Sheila H
| 2138|2137|2005-01-25 10:51:58|pennington2|Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition?|
The quote is from "There's Nothing the Matter with Me!" (page 499 in
the Second Edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous). The
story is in the section "They Nearly Lost All," and the complete quote
reads:

"That taught me the most important lesson I have ever learned in my
entire life. That is that A.A. doesn't need me, but I need A.A. Very
desperately, very sincerely, very humbly. Not all at once, because you
can't get it all at once, just a little bit at a time. They told me,
"You've got to get out and work a little; you've got to give." They
told me that giving was living, and that living was loving, and loving
was God. And you don't have to worry about God, because He's sitting
right in front of your eyes.
You get just a little sobriety, and you get just a little
humility. Not much, just a little. Not the humility of sackcloth and
ashes, but the humility of a man who's glad he's alive and can serve.
You get just a little tolerance, not too much, but just enough to sit
and listen to the other guy."

(quoted text is from page 507 of the Second Edition of the Big Book of
Alcoholics Anonymous)

p2

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "hrlywolfiz"
wrote:
>
> A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
> of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
> important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
> need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has
> something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
> how to pray you learn a little about that too.
>
> Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different
> groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.
>
> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
> meeting.
>
> thanks
> Sheila H
| 2139|2137|2005-01-25 10:53:03|Thumper|Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition?|
The title of the story you are looking for is in the
Second Edition 499 - 508

THERE'S NOTHING THE MATTER WITH ME!


That's what the man said as he hocked his shoes for
the price of two bottles of Sneaky Pete. He drank
bayzo, canned heat, and shoe polish. He did a
phoney routine in A.A. for a while. And then he got
hold of the real thing.


I found it in a search on silkworth.net. Enjoy!

Paula Barnette


=====
in the right formation, the lifting power of many wings can achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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| 2140|2137|2005-01-25 14:38:57|Arkie Koehl|Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition?|
On Jan 25, 2005, at 6:40, hrlywolfiz wrote:

> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
> meeting.

It's fairly common here in Honolulu, in some meetings, to read the
beginning of "More About Alcoholism" in the 3rd Chapter. In the history
meeting (see below), we read the preface to "Pass It On," where it
explains how the book got its name.

Arkie

PS & FWIW: I attend two meetings which have slightly "off the beaten
path" reading formats:

1. Thursday noon, "AA History 101." We read from the
conference-approved histories; we're currently reading "Pass It On."
It's a new meeting, gaining popularity. Not geared at newcomers,
obviously. The way I position it is that I gain a greater appreciation
for my Program by knowing its history; just as I understand my country
better by knowing its history.

2. Friday "High Nooners." Having completed reading all the stories in
the 4th edition, the group purchased several copies of "Experience,
Strength & Hope," the conference-approved collection of all the 1st,
2nd and 3rd Ed. stories no longer appearing. We read a story a week,
and it's wonderful seeing some of the old stories again or coming upon
stories for the first time.

Arkie
| 2141|2111|2005-01-25 19:49:25|john pizzamiglio|Re: Stools and Bottles|
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor"
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review
listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors
bios to see if it is listed to any one
| 2142|2142|2005-01-25 20:29:37|steve|amateur archivist at it again|
Hello everyone,

Thanks to Mel and others who helped me build an archive for the
kalamazoo Michigan area--it is now safely in the hands of the current
Delegate.

I have moved to Mount Pleasant Michigan and am at it again...if
anyone has any info please pass along, I'm starting from near nothing
here.

Also I've recently heard of a recording of Glenn Cofee sp? in 1969 in
Indiana at a conference--if anyone has any info on him or a Don
Stevens from Michigan that would help too...Thanks a bunch

Steve
| 2143|2111|2005-01-25 23:09:46|Corey Franks|Re: Stools and Bottles|
HI Victor. We at www.archivesinternational.org have a picture of Ed Webster along with Barry Collins those two are the authors of that book and a few others you may recognize. Take a look we also have much more information on both of them and will be putting it on out site soon. THX! Corey F.

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor"
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review
listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors
bios to see if it is listed to any one





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2144|2111|2005-01-25 23:10:00|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Stools and Bottles|
Dear John (and Victor),

Ed Webster (who lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota) published The Little Red Book in 1946 under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed had the help and support of Dr. Bob, who gave numerous suggestions for wording various passages. That was his most famous book, but Ed also wrote the book you were asking about, Stools and Bottles (1955), and he also wrote Barroom Reveries (1958) and Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities (in 1970, just a year before his death). In various places in the U.S. and Canada, Ed was the third most widely read A.A. author.

For more information see http://hindsfoot.org/redbk1.html

Jack H., an AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, has all of Ed Webster's papers, and knows an extraordinary amount about him. We need someone to write a biography of Ed. Jack's material would be invaluable for that.

Bill Pittman at the Hazelden Archives also knows a good deal. See the Foreword which Bill wrote for the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition of the Little Red Book for more about Ed Webster.

Ed went to the famous Founders Day Camping Trips in Minnesota held from 1944 to 1947 (see the photo of Dr. Bob holding a fish he caught on one of these trips in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) and was close to many of the early AA leaders from places like Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, and Winnipeg. He was especially close to Dr. Bob, and Dr. Bob warmly supported Ed in his writing and publishing.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN)

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" wrote:

I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first publish.
Thank you in advance
Victor F.
Austin, Texas

i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors bios to see if it is listed to any one



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2145|2111|2005-01-25 23:43:15|Glenn Chesnut|Stools and Bottles|
It's probably simpler to combine these two postings into a single message:

"Stephanie Burgess" <SBURGESS2004@msn.com> wrote in and said: "Stools and Bottles is written by the same person who wrote The Little Red Book & Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities. It comes out of the Nicolette Group in Minnesota, and was published originally by ?Cobb Webster as I seem to remember. Since my copies are in storage in Michigan and I am in New Mexico, I cannot verify the publisher."



James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net> wrote in and said: "For what it is worth, the page at: http://www.martydee.com/AA/archives/000825.html states: 'Ed Webster (who later wrote Stools and Bottles and Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities) was probably the principal author.' Talking about The Little Red Book."

To this let me add just a few of notes of my own:

When "The Little Red Book" first came out, the short title was simply "The Twelve Steps." The long title was "An Interpretation of THE TWELVE STEPS of the ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM." It had a dark burgundy cover, and therefore eventually came to be referred to by AA people as "the little red book," which was eventually used as the official title.

It said on the title page of the first edition (1946) that it was published by "Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" in Minneapolis. This simply meant that Barry COLL-ins and Ed WEB-ster paid for printing it themselves. There was not really any commercial publishing firm called Coll-Webb. Ed Webster and Barry Collins did it under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. It was based on the beginners' lessons which Ed Webster had been giving at the Nicollet Group for some time. These were the earliest known AA beginners' classes, on the basis of our current knowledge.

Jack H., the AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, who has all of Ed Webster's papers, says that Ed was the one who did all the writing on all four books (The Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, Barroom Reveries, and Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities). Barry Collins seems to have helped pay for getting The Little Red Book published, Jack says, and that sort of thing, but not to have been involved in the writing itself.

Well, the one exception to the statement that Ed did all the writing on all four books, is that Dr. Bob sent a lot of comments to Ed as he published the various early editions of The Little Red Book, so in one sense we could say that Ed Webster was the primary author of The Little Red Book, but that Dr. Bob also played a part in writing it.

If you find a copy of Barroom Reveries anywhere, this is a VERY rare book. Ed intended it to be a book of AA humor, and it fell flat on its face, Jack says, so it was never reprinted. The "first edition first printing" is the only version of this book that exists, and there could not be many copies at all surviving by this point.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2146|2146|2005-01-26 10:00:47|Naomi Blankenship|Re: I am an alcoholic?|
Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again
it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me
long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing
and sharing in my sobriety.

Naomi
| 2147|906|2005-01-26 10:01:09|Nicholas J. Hernandez|Herbert Spencer|
How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?
| 2148|906|2005-01-26 13:09:44|ArtSheehan|Re: Herbert Spencer|
Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the
1st edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual awakening” and the term “as the result of these steps” was
changed to “as the result of those steps.” Along with the wording changes to
Step 12, the appendix, “Spiritual Experience” was added (it was appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the
“educational variety.”



The initial version of the “Spiritual Experience” appendix did not contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term “those
steps” back to “these steps.” The quotation attributed to Spencer originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled “An Artist’s Concept” by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book’s dust jacket). Ray C’s story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation (a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the last
sentences of the appendix that “Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.”



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term “survival of
the fittest.”



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








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| 2149|906|2005-01-26 13:37:55|Rob White|Re: Herbert Spencer|
I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








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ADVERTISEMENT

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k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>



<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676

2470184944>



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2150|2150|2005-01-26 16:12:03|ny-aa@att.net|To Wives|
The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
"To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
been found to support that?
___________________________________________

An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
Cleveland, Ohio
p. 378 in 1st edition

Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.

There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
wrote it.

She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
and good fortune because we found a new way of living."

Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
and their son.

When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
to give their problems to God.

She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
When we live with God we want for nothing."
| 2151|906|2005-01-26 16:13:37|ArtSheehan|Re: Herbert Spencer|
I had the same thought about the source of the quotation - that it might
come from a piece of correspondence rather than a published work.



A reputable web site has had a posting for over a year now asking anyone who
might be aware of the source of the quotation to please identify it. Some
citations were sent in but they haven’t been verified.



Searches through web sites specializing in quotations, either will not have
the quotation in their data base or cite the Big Book as its source (not
surprising since there have been so many Big Books distributed).



Arthur



_____

From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer



I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c56dp7k/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr

phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1106848870/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kcu6pau/*http:/cl
k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>



<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/
<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676
> &time=110676

2470184944>



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2152|906|2005-01-26 16:14:08|Bill Lash|Re: Herbert Spencer|
This just in. Can anyone verify this?

Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido CA for sending this.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer


I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2153|2146|2005-01-26 16:15:18|Steve Aeilts|Re: I am an alcoholic?|
naomi,

well, my sponsor taught me to ID my self (in any open meeting) as:

"My name is Steve, and I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous..."

he showed me a paragraph in the BBook forwords that came from the first edition where Bill wrote:

"When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as 'a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.' "

this is on page xiii of the fourth edition.

i do refer to myself as "I'm Steve and i'm an alcoholic" at our Home Group business meetings or at any closed meeting i might attend.

this is just the way we do it here in Casper, Wyoming.

or at least this is the way i do it here in town.

thanks, and maybe i'll see you on the Great Highway down the road!

i remain,

love&peace, steve a. dos: April 24, 1998
----- Original Message -----
From: Naomi Blankenship
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: I am an alcoholic?



Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again
it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me
long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing
and sharing in my sobriety.

Naomi




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2154|906|2005-01-26 17:32:22|Tom P.|Re: Herbert Spencer|
"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.








--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Bill Lash
wrote:
> This just in. Can anyone verify this?
>
> Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
> "The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
> Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192
>
> Special Thanks to Dave Howard
> of Escondido CA for sending this.
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@p...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
> I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were
taken
> from an unpublished letter.
>
> any truth to that?
>
> Rob W.
> Baltimore
>
> >>> ArtSheehan@m... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>
>
> Hi Nicholas
>
>
>
> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd
printing
> of the
> 1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
> to
> "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
> steps" was
> changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
> changes to
> Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
> appendix I
> then, not appendix II).
>
>
>
> The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought
that they
> had
> to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to
the
> one
> Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
> spiritual
> experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James
called
> the
> "educational variety."
>
>
>
> The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
> contain
> the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the
appendix
> until
> mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd
printing
> of
> the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the
term
> "those
> steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
> originally
> appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
> Concept" by Ray
> C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
> C's story
> was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the
quotation was
> added
> to the appendix.
>
>
>
> The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
> written
> work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the
quotation
> (a
> few works have been cited but not verified).
>
>
>
> I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had
much, if
> any,
> influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis
to the
> last
> sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
> mindedness are
> the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
>
>
> PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
> "survival of
> the fittest."
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
>
>
> How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
> mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or
was
> his work more thouroughly studied?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2155|2155|2005-01-27 06:06:24|Roy V. Tellis|Re: Author of "Life Saving Words"/Early AA History in India|
Dear Nancy,

I may have inadvertantly caused some confusion when I
sent in the email regarding Trevor K., the author of
"Life Saving Words" in the 3rd Edition of the Big
Book. I may have given the impression that Trevor K.
was the founding member of AA in India. In actual fact
the FIRST Indian who sobered up in response to the
Canadian Charley Marshall's advertisemet was a
schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harry
Mathais, to be soon followed by John G., Ignatius P.,
Tony M., and Vithal P. The author of the story Trevor
K. INDEPENDENTLY saw the advertisement, wrote to
Charlie in Delhi, received literature and sobered up
as the result of studying the literature and later had
the opportunity to meet Charley. I apologise for any
confusion caused and am sending you a revised email.

Thank you for letting me share,
Roy T.




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
| 2156|2150|2005-01-27 06:08:26|Diz Titcher|Re: To Wives|
In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@att.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives


>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing."
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2157|2157|2005-01-27 06:10:34|Roy V. Tellis|Revision: Author of "Life Saving Words" 3rd Edition|
Dear Nancy,

My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in
Bombay India in April 1990. I was going through the
brief biograpies of the authors of the stories and I
notices that you did not have the name or accurate
sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words"
from the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends
involved in service in India and am forwarding you
some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots
started a meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but
it did not survive the war. Till 1957 a few
individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early
1957, a Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to
the Candian Embassy at New Delhi. Prior to his coming
to India, Charley wrote to our co-founder, Bill W.
informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A.
activities, and if there are any contacts there, that
I can get in touch with, I would surely welcome the
opportunity". The reply from General Service Office,
N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti
M. to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence
indicates that Charley M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th
January 1957 and was able to locate Sylvia and
Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to
those with a drinking problem.

The FIRST Indian who responded to the advertisemet was
a schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harold
Mathias, who called on Charley M. personally in New
Delhi. Harry M. spent some days with Charley at Delhi
learning about the disease of alcoholism and the
program and spiritual principles of Alcoholics
Anonymous. He returned to Mumbai armed with the
literature given to him and stopped drinking from 5th
May 1957 till his premature sober death on 5th June,
1967. On his return to Bombay he twelve-stepped John
G., Ignatius P., Tony M., and Vithal P., who were
(are) some of the pioneers in India.

A letter from G.S.O. New York to Charley M. dated 5th
March 1957 saying "Thanks so much for your letter
dated 24th February 1957 and the enclosed registration
card for the New Delhi Group". This indicates that an
A.A. group was started in New Delhi in early February
1957.

The efforts of Harry M. in spreading the message were
indeed stupendous, and by November, 1957, after about
six months, a small group was already functioning in
Mumbai. A letter from G.S.O. New York to Harry M.
dated 17th March 1958, discussed several issues and
enclosed such literature as "The Structure and
Services of AA", and also material on "A.A. and
Hospital Co-operation". Within less than a year the
A.A. group in Mumbai had become active. In the A.A.
Grapevine of October 1958, there was a two page report
of A.A. in India written by Charley M. The report
says that the largest concentration of A.A. members
was in Mumbai mentioning the figure as 23. The A.A.
directory card of December 1958 records that A.A. in
India consisted of 48 members, of whom Mumbai had 30,
Delhi 7, Calcutta 5 and one or two in other cities.

AUTHOR OG LIFE SAVING WORDS
Another pioneer of the A.A. movement outside Mumbai
was Lieutenant Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment
of the Indian Army. He to responded to the newspaper
advertisemnt, and had the opportunity to come in
contact with Charley M. through correspondence. After
receiving literature from Charleyin the mail, Trevor
K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his
death on 31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K.
appears in the BIG BOOK entitled - "Life-saving
words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had the good
fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M. for
the first time, almost a month after the sobered up
through the mail. Charley suggested that he register
as a "loner" due to his army postings. Trevor's
service postings took him to new places in India and
he became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in
India sowing the seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore,
Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
| 2158|2158|2005-01-27 10:49:53|ArtSheehan|Herbert Spencer Redux|
Hi

Just checked with the webmaster of the link via e-mail.

He replied that the cited source is still not verified.

I'd buy that book if I was sure the quotation is in it.

Sure don't want to pay a $225 tuition to learn that it's not though.

Cheers

Arthur



From: "Tom P." <http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=4Ak-8lWjaa
SZYeCpCv8eZorpjTVULZwo0AzMkETZClojkxB8LhiEcexINAHDuCosf0p9lmIKO1qr-hhBjw> >
Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:16 am
Subject: Re: Herbert Spencer

"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2159|2150|2005-01-27 13:34:46|ArtSheehan|Re: To Wives|
Mary C Darrah's excellent biography "Sister Ignatia" (pgs 128-129) states
that Bill wrote to Dr Bob that he thought Anne (Dr Bob's wife) should write
the chapter. Anne declined. Darrah goes on to state that a discrepancy
exists in comparing NY and Akron archive records regarding the authorship of
"To Wives." At the end of her commentary, Darrah reports that Marie B wrote
a draft that Bill W revised. I presume this was premised on the Akron
archives records.



Other sources state that Bill W wrote the chapter:



(1) Lois W's in "Lois Remembers" (pg 114) states that Bill wrote the chapter
although she suggested to him that she should write it.



(2) Francis Hartigan in "Bill W" (pgs 114-115) cites Lois as being far
angrier than she described herself in "Lois Remembers" and also states that
Bill W wrote the chapter. Hartigan was Lois W's personal secretary and
confidant.



(3) "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" states "Bill himself wrote the chapter
that came to be called 'To Wives' and Marie B, the wife of a member from
Cleveland, wrote a personal account for the story section of the first
edition."



More sources may comment on the matter, however, barring revelation of the
details in the Akron archive's "indication" the weight of evidence leans to
concluding that Bill W was the author of the chapter rather than Marie B.



But I'd still be very curious to learn what is in the Akron archives data.
Does anyone know?



Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Diz Titcher [mailto:rtitcher@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:44 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives



In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@att.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives


>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing."
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2160|2158|2005-01-28 10:34:59|Nicholas J. Hernandez|Re: Herbert Spencer Redux|
When you look at the Amazon site, you can check the table of
contents of the book. The source pointing to p 192 is in a chapter
titled "Closed Head Injury" by a David I. Graham. So the chapter is
not even by Herbert Spencer. Maybe Mr. Graham metions the quote,
but I doubt if he cites its source as anything other than Herbert
Spencer or the Big Book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/

The bigger question I had was how much influence did the ideas of
Herbert Spencer have on Bill Wilson.

By the way Herbert Spencer was a big influence on Henri Bergson who
in turn had a big influence on William James.
| 2170|2170|2005-02-08 20:21:39|Jaime Maliachi|Jack Alexander'Birthday and place|
Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2172|2170|2005-02-09 15:49:22|Mel Barger|Re: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place|
Hi Jaime,
I do know that Jack Alexander died in 1975. He was an AA trustee for a
length of time. Perhaps the 1975 Grapevines would have a mention.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander'Birthday and place




Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2173|2173|2005-02-09 19:42:58|Charles Knapp|Jack Alexander|
Hello,

I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I have written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They only knew he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles he had written and I am including that list. I would really like to find a photo of Jack for our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most information I found on him was from his memorial found in the December 1975 AA Grapevine.
Hope this helps
Charles from California

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 1975 AA Grapevine
Passing of Jack Alexander
Recalls Early AA Growth

Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died on September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years old, with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer was assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of recovering alcoholics.


Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in the March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had reached 8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the story-behind-the-story, "Were the AAs Pulling My Leg?'


During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the "Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement, in 1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept in touch with AA until his health began to fail.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical

a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18 1939
c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31, Nov 7 1953
d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 12 1947
i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7 1959
j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943
k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948; about Chic Young.
l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 2 1957
m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950; Alcoholics Anonymous.
n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great library can house romance as well as books.
o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8 1938
u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1958
v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939
z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 18 1954
aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1947
ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30 1949
ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 16 1944
ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3 1938
af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951
ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10 1960
ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26 1941
aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939


ALEXANDER, JACK by Date

a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3 1938
b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8 1938
c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939
g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18 1939
i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26 1941
q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great library can house romance as well as books.
s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943
u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 16 1944
w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 12 1947
y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1947
z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948; about Chic Young.
aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30 1949
ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950; Alcoholics Anonymous.
ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951
ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31, Nov 7 1953
af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 18 1954
ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 2 1957
ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1958
ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7 1959
aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10 1960






----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699




There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place


Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2174|2173|2005-02-10 06:42:20|Patrick Morgan|Re: Jack Alexander|
I’ll check and see if we have a picture for you im sure we have archives on
jack let me get back to you
Thanks
Webmaster@archivesinternational.org (Pat M.)

_____

From: Charles Knapp [mailto:cdknapp@pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:57 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander

Hello,

I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I
have written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They
only knew he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles
he had written and I am including that list. I would really like to find a
photo of Jack for our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most
information I found on him was from his memorial found in the December 1975
AA Grapevine.
Hope this helps
Charles from California

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

December 1975 AA Grapevine
Passing of Jack Alexander
Recalls Early AA Growth

Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died
on September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years
old, with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer
was assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of
recovering alcoholics.


Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA
convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now
re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in
the March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had
reached 8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the
story-behind-the-story, "Were the AAs Pulling My Leg?'


During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General
Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the
"Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement,
in 1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept
in touch with AA until his health began to fail.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical

a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
18 1939
c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
31, Nov 7 1953
d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1
1941
h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Nov 7 1959
j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13
1943
k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10
1948; about Chic Young.
l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Mar 2 1957
m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1
1950; Alcoholics Anonymous.
n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26
1940
s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Oct 8 1938
u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Aug 9 1958
v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12
1950
x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Dec 18 1954
aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8
1946
ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul
30 1949
ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Sep 16 1944
ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Sep 3 1938
af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
10 1960
ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul
26 1941
aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939


ALEXANDER, JACK by Date

a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3
1938
b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
8 1938
c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18
1939
i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26
1941
q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943

u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
16 1944
w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10
1948; about Chic Young.
aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30
1949
ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;
Alcoholics Anonymous.
ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950

ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
31, Nov 7 1953
af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec
18 1954
ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Mar 2 1957
ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug
9 1958
ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
7 1959
aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10
1960






----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699




There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place


Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



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| 2175|2175|2005-02-10 17:09:29|George Cleveland|Bill W and depression|
What is the best source for information on what Bill W did to overcome
his depression? And is there solid information on his research with
Vitamin B therapies?

Thanks.

George Cleveland
| 2176|2175|2005-02-10 20:09:10|ArtSheehan|Re: Bill W and depression|
Hi George

The references in the text below offer some informative
reading.

SOURCE REFERENCES:

AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big
Book, AAWS

AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS

BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft
cover)

BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard
cover)

BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,
autobiography (hard cover)

GB Getting Better Inside
Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)

GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by
Nell Wing (soft cover)

LOH The Language of the Heart, AA
Grapevine Inc

LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
(expanded edition, soft cover)

NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

PIO Pass It On, AAWS

1912

Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and
Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star
football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball
team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)

Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,
died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital
in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the
Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it
at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of
depression, which severely affected his performance at
school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,
BW-FH 19-20)

1915

Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill
W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother
in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent
him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart
attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused
him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several
weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors
sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East
Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)

Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but
doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much
of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."
(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him
with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.
Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest
people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he
nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of
his lost love). (BW-FH 23)

1927

On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room
apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough
for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment
next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT
144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)

By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior
and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title
and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and
Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)

1934

Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him
about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill
fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and
had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If
there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later
assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to
what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash"
experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG
19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)

1944

Summer, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout
for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members
were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the
program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill
endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH
6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)

1945

Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a
Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her
until 1949 for his episodes of depression. (BW-FH 166-167,
GB 66, PIO 334-335)

1955

After 1955 the depression that had plagued Bill W for so
long, lifted and he regained his bright outlook. However,
during 1956, his best friend, Mark Whalon, died. (PIO 359,
364)

1956

There is a link between Bill's LSD and niacin (vitamin B3)
experiences:

British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to
Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
Abram Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry).
Humphrey and Osmond were working with schizophrenic and
alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.

Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA
on August 29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist
Sidney Cohen of the LA VA hospital, the LSD experiments
occurred well prior to the "hippie era" of the late 1960's.

At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic
potential (research was also being funded by the National
Institutes of Health and National Academy of Sciences). The
intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience
similar to the DTs in hopes that it might shock alcoholics
away from alcohol.

Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who
accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker
and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated
in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from
Roosevelt Hospital).

Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps
into the early 1960's). The book "Pass It On" (PIO 368-377)
reports the full LSD story and notes that there were
repercussions within AA over these activities. Lois was a
reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to
the chemical.

1966

Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill,
in December 1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It also created
Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused a bit of
an uproar. The book "Pass It On" (PIO 387-391) has a fairly
full discussion.

Note:

In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The
Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a
bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also
mentions what he did in response to it.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: George Cleveland [mailto:pauguspass@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression



What is the best source for information on what Bill W did
to overcome
his depression? And is there solid information on his
research with
Vitamin B therapies?

Thanks.

George Cleveland











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| 2177|2177|2005-02-10 20:43:25|chesbayman56|Frank Lynch|
Hello Folks,
I have been trying, with little success, to get any historical info
on Frank Lynch and his wife. I know that he was very instrumental in
helping several people to get sober in the mid- Atlantic region and
that his sponsor was Clarence Snyder. He brought meetings into St.
Elizabeth's Hospital in DC and started several regular meetings in
Southern Maryland. I also have heard it said that he died with a
resentment about his story not being published in the 3rd edition.
However I have spoken with another who had lunch with him a week
before he passed away in the mid 80's and that he was more concerned
with helping this person get sober than he was with his own physical
health.

Any information would be greatly appreciated
Billy C
Annapolis Maryland
| 2178|2178|2005-02-11 09:41:08|Charlie Bishop Jr.|Re: B-3 & LSD from Charlie Bishop, Jr.|
There are two books published by The Bishop of Books that treat the B-3 and LSD questions.

The COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ. Wheeling, WV, The Bishop of Books, 1999. FIRST EDITION, with SIGNED KURTZ BOOKPLATE. 231pp. Eleven great essays by Kurtz over the years, including "Bill W. & LSD." Others: William James, Lay Treatment, AA Spirituality, Shame, Research on A.A., etc. Kurtz, of course, is the author of "NOT-GOD: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous." There are only 17 copies left out of the first edition printing of 1,000 copies. $17. + $3. USPS book rate postage.

and ...

Bill Wilson & The Vitamin B-3 Therapy 1965-1971. Reprinted by The Bishop of Books, Wheeling, WV, 2002, approx. 100 pages, 8.5x11" softbound. Three communications from Bill W. to A.A.'s Physicians about the research done on B-3. This was NOT Conference-approved literature and was Bill's last major project before his death. A good number of the early oldtimers in AA took niacin every day. Only 3 copies left out of the second reprinting of 50 copes. $25. + $3. USPS first class mailing.

I rarely ever post any message promoting my books and will not feel offended in the least if you decide not to use this; however, both items contain solid information not available anywhere else about B-3 and LSD. As always, thanks and servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr. (304) 242-2937 or email me at bishopbk@comcast.net or write: 46 Eureka Ave., Wheeling, WV 26003.

amen.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2179|2175|2005-02-11 10:16:01|Theron|Re: Bill W and depression|
The pamphlet that Bill had published on niacin therapy was a collection of
articles by several doctors who had done research in the area. My former
sponsor (since moved out of state) had a copy and I believe I saw one at
the Akron A.A. Archives, too, if memory serves correctly (always
questionable). When searching for information on this, try using
"nicotonic acid" and "nicotinamide"; both are forms of niacin and the terms
are often used in the research literature.

The Akron Archives also has a letter from Bill W. to a member on the
subject of depression; if you get a chance to visit, be sure to ask to see it.

Peace,

Theron


At 10:15 PM 2/10/2005, ArtSheehan wrote:


>Hi George
>
>The references in the text below offer some informative
>reading.
>
>SOURCE REFERENCES:
>
>AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big
>Book, AAWS
>
>AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS
>
>BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft
>cover)
>
>BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard
>cover)
>
>BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,
>autobiography (hard cover)
>
>GB Getting Better Inside
>Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)
>
>GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by
>Nell Wing (soft cover)
>
>LOH The Language of the Heart, AA
>Grapevine Inc
>
>LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
>
>NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
>(expanded edition, soft cover)
>
>NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)
>
>PIO Pass It On, AAWS
>
>1912
>
>Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and
>Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star
>football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball
>team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)
>
>Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,
>died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital
>in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the
>Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it
>at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of
>depression, which severely affected his performance at
>school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,
>BW-FH 19-20)
>
>1915
>
>Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill
>W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother
>in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent
>him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart
>attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused
>him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several
>weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors
>sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East
>Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)
>
>Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but
>doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much
>of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."
>(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him
>with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.
>Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest
>people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he
>nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of
>his lost love). (BW-FH 23)
>
>1927
>
>On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room
>apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough
>for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment
>next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT
>144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)
>
>By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior
>and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title
>and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and
>Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)
>
>1934
>
>Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him
>about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill
>fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and
>had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If
>there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later
>assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to
>what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
>later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash"
>experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG
>19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)
>
>1944
>
>Summer, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout
>for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members
>were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the
>program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill
>endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH
>6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)
>
>1945
>
>Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a
>Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her
>until 1949 for his episodes of depression. (BW-FH 166-167,
>GB 66, PIO 334-335)
>
>1955
>
>After 1955 the depression that had plagued Bill W for so
>long, lifted and he regained his bright outlook. However,
>during 1956, his best friend, Mark Whalon, died. (PIO 359,
>364)
>
>1956
>
>There is a link between Bill's LSD and niacin (vitamin B3)
>experiences:
>
>British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to
>Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
>Abram Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry).
>Humphrey and Osmond were working with schizophrenic and
>alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.
>
>Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA
>on August 29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist
>Sidney Cohen of the LA VA hospital, the LSD experiments
>occurred well prior to the "hippie era" of the late 1960's.
>
>At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic
>potential (research was also being funded by the National
>Institutes of Health and National Academy of Sciences). The
>intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience
>similar to the DTs in hopes that it might shock alcoholics
>away from alcohol.
>
>Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who
>accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker
>and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated
>in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from
>Roosevelt Hospital).
>
>Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps
>into the early 1960's). The book "Pass It On" (PIO 368-377)
>reports the full LSD story and notes that there were
>repercussions within AA over these activities. Lois was a
>reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to
>the chemical.
>
>1966
>
>Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill,
>in December 1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
>promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It also created
>Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused a bit of
>an uproar. The book "Pass It On" (PIO 387-391) has a fairly
>full discussion.
>
>Note:
>
>In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The
>Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a
>bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also
>mentions what he did in response to it.
>
>Cheers
>
>Arthur
>
> _____
>
>From: George Cleveland [mailto:pauguspass@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression
>
>
>
>What is the best source for information on what Bill W did
>to overcome
>his depression? And is there solid information on his
>research with
>Vitamin B therapies?
>
>Thanks.
>
>George Cleveland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
><http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ckmmk9j/M=298184.6018725.7038
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>020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108084170126921>
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>/01/&time=1108084170126921>
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>1176/D=grphealth/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=215587363>
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>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>* To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
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>AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=
>Unsubscribe>
>
>* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
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>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005
| 2180|2180|2005-02-12 07:18:59|lghforum|Jim's insanity... BB|
A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH
| 2181|2180|2005-02-12 08:16:34|Robert Stonebraker|Re: Jim's insanity... BB|
http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a
short biography.

Bob S, Richmond, IN




-----Original Message-----
From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB



A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH










Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2182|2182|2005-02-13 17:20:30|jlobdell54|Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander|
The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
| 2183|2183|2005-02-14 13:21:21|Bill Lash|AA Here Meet With Chief of Society (Tuscon AZ 4/6/44)|
The author of this article was a close friend of Dave S. The author was not
one of us and passed away last year at age 79. His wife, who is also close
friend, found this newspaper article in his things and copied it for Dave.
At the time of its writing (April 6, 1944) Louis was a reporter for the
Tucson Daily Star.
Anecdotally - at the time of this article Dave was 8 years old. The only
meeting of AA was held at the church he attended. He remembers playing
basketball in the courtyard while the meeting (which he didn't know was AA)
was going on in an adjacent room. Bill W. may have been in that room but
Dave was too young to know it.


Alcoholics Anonymous Here Meet With Chief of Society
By Louis Witzeman

They call him simply “Bill.” He’s the head of Alcoholics Anonymous,
national organization of men and women who were formerly alcohol addicts.
Tall, lanky, with his hair slightly grayed, he looks more like a Texas
cattleman than a Vermonter and an ex-Wall Street broker. One of the
shrewdest of amateur psychologists, he today concludes his visit to Tuscon
as the guest of the Tuscon unit of “AA.”
Bill has led an interesting life. Alcoholics Anonymous – actually there was
no name for the group until 1939 – got its start in 1934 in Akron, Ohio, at
a time when Bill had been pronounced an “incurable alcoholic” by medical
men. He was in Akron on a business trip and had made a failure of it.
After he had been pronounced “incurable” a few months before, he had taken a
hospital “cure” for alcoholism and it had worked for a month. Faced by
failure, Bill saw his “cure” relaxing its hold, just as it had several times
before.

Talked Out Of Binge
Before he lost control of himself, however, he happened to meet an Akron
doctor who was also an alcoholic. The two of them got together and talked
themselves out of going on the binge they had both contemplated. Instead,
they found the release they had sought in trying to stop other alcoholics
from other binges.
They weren’t very successful – Bill says so quite bluntly. In the first
year of their work, the two of them led just five men to recovery, the next
year ten, the next 20 and the next 60. In spite of the fact that he had
been on the receiving end of virtually every sort of cure in existence, Bill
had not found any key to what later developed into his own special knack.
Then, in 1939, he decided to put his ideas on paper. He wrote an anonymous
book, entitled it “Alcoholics Anonymous” and thus founded the organization.
In it he finally found expression of his ideas.

Progress Swift
Once the book was written, progress became swift. Headquarters were
established in New York City and today AA adds approximately 500 members per
month. Thousands write to find out what the group has to offer.
It’s a combination of the attitudes of the preacher, the doctor and the
former alcoholic, he says. He recognizes alcoholism as a disease, one of
which no one can ever be “cured” but from which he can “recover.” Never
when there is a chance of a relapse is there a cure, he says, and any
alcoholic stands a chance of a relapse. An alcoholic can recover by the
change in outlook advocated by the doctors or the faith advocated by the
clergy, Bill says, but it is AA’s job to provide the element which makes the
remedy stick. That element, he says, is simply association with other
alcoholics in “converting” them.

Anonymity Used
Anonymity is the protection that allows a man to try to cure himself of his
addiction, Bill maintains.
He and the Akron doctor together founded their groups on that thesis. In
250 communities they now number 10,000 members. They have chapters in
Canada, Australia, and India in addition to those in the United States.
Traveling service men all over the world spread their work. In New York
City they maintain an office employing four full-time secretaries.
Bill’s salary is paid by a special fund created by John D. Rockefeller which
gives him $30 per week. In addition to this, he makes approximately the
same amount from sales of his books. He and his four secretaries are the
only paid members in the entire organization of 10,000. No chapter pays any
dues for any work other than its own – there are no national dues.

Board of Trustees
A board of trustees composed of seven men manages the organization’s
financial activities in New York. This board is composed of four New York
business men and three former alcoholics. The four business men, with three
of the secretaries, are the only members of the entire group of 10,000 who
are not former alcoholics.
Tuscon’s group is small – now consisting of 14 members. It was formed only
a few years ago. Like all groups of its sort, it permits no use of names of
members. Those interested in its work need simply write to Box 4432,
University Station. All whose names are turned in to the group will be
personally visited by a member of the group. To those interested in being
cured, AA will point out that it can cure 50 per cent of them on the first
try, and 25 per cent on the second. The remainder will either fall out
completely, or be partially cured.
Bill was paying his first visit to Tuscon last night. He came here two days
ago from the Pacific coast, where he was visiting other groups. Last night
he met members of the Tuscon group. Today he goes on eastward with his
wife, planning to visit other towns and other AA units as he goes.
| 2184|2184|2005-02-14 17:02:18|richard johnson|court slips??? Any Info??|
I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704


>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
| 2185|2180|2005-02-14 17:44:05|John S.|Re: Jim's insanity... BB|
Bob,

That’s an interesting article and one I enjoyed reading, it’s also an
excellent web site I thank you so much for the information; but it doesn’t
address the original question to wit: “Who is ‘Jim’ and what else is known
about the car salesman who used to own the agency he now works for?”

In Love,

John S.

"If you can read this, thank a teacher"
This e-mail scanned by 'Norton' anti-virus software

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB


http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a
short biography.

Bob S, Richmond, IN




-----Original Message-----
From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB



A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH










Yahoo! Groups Links











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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2186|2186|2005-02-15 06:08:54|michael oates|NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS|
DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP
| 2187|2187|2005-02-15 07:45:06|ArtSheehan|Consolidated: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB|
(Several replies are consolidated below - Co-Moderator)



From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=180110428> "lghforum" <lghforum@earthlink.net> Date: Sat Feb 12,
2005 11:06pm
Bob . Thanks! But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the "Jim" who
thinks
".he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk!" on page 37 of
the BB 3rd Edition?



From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=6285566> TBaerMojo@aol.com Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:18pm
People in Alcoholics Anonymous West Baltimore Group + A. A. +
alcoholism +
recovery + aa + AA + health. Jim -- listed as 35-7 Ralph F "Jim" car
sales, mixed milk and whiskey



From: 3cejlawyer@midtel.net%3e> "Jay
Lawyer" <ejlawyer@midtel.net> Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:40pm
John - Ralph Furlong is the Jim in this little story about a car
salesman. - Jay



From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=34059972> "Maxwell Clemo" <maxclem@msn.com> Date: Tue Feb 15, 2005
7:02am
Suggest you try this one........Max C.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell30.html



-----Original Message-----



From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@i...
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=VmKW
JL0N8jP8N0V3oCgfwmZWpoT6VnudkxGl7RqHbqevXQ3jbWEkDjHOLaAttUurJnQT-ea017
YaSkJZVwyaSz5ERM_poa0r> ] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there,
plus a
short biography. Bob S, Richmond, IN



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2188|2184|2005-02-15 10:03:32|Rob White|Re: court slips??? Any Info??|
Court slips started around here (Baltimore) in the 70's when Judge Dave
Bates , a recovering alcoholic, started sending people to AA meetings.
There was a big uproar in the 80's about whether groups should sign
slips .
Most of that has worked itself out. Some do , some don't.

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> hotshots@elltel.net 02/14/05 07:36PM >>>

I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in
jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704


>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>






Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2189|2186|2005-02-15 10:05:29|Margie Keith|Re: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS|
Jimmy Kinnon
Wikipedia
Jimmy Kinnon

James P. Kinnon (commonly known as Jimmy Kinnon or "Jimmy K") was the
founder of Narcotics Anonymous (NA), an international association of
recovering drug addicts. During his lifetime, he was usually referred to as
"Jimmy K" due to NA's principle of personal anonymity on the public level.
It appears he never referred to himself as the founder of NA although the
record clearly shows that he played this role.

From the very start, unlike many other attempts to form self-help groups for
drug addicts, Narcotics Anonymous was based on both the Twelve Steps and the
Twelve Traditions devised by Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and adapted to the
specific needs of NA. While there is no official biography of Jimmy Kinnon,
a certain amount of pertinent information can be found on the web and in
print (see links and resources below).

Kinnon was born on 5 April, 1911 in Paisley, Scotland. On 8 August, 1923, he
arrived with his family on Ellis Island, NY. He worked as a roofer,
struggling with his drug addiction until he achieved permanent and complete
abstinence from all drugs in Alcoholics Anonymous on 2 February 1950.

He and a few other drug addicts who had met in AA started holding a series
of independent meetings for drug addicts, beginning 17 August 1953. The
first documented recovery meeting of Narcotics Anonymous was held on 5
October 1953 in Southern California. Today, members of Narcotics Anonymous
hold more than 30,000 weekly meetings in over 100 countries worldwide.

Kinnon is a key figure in the history of Narcotics Anonymous for several
reasons. He wrote several portions of the Little White Booklet, which formed
the basis for NA's basic text, published in 1983 under the title Narcotics
Anonymous (ISBN 0912075023). This book also contains his anonymous
biography, titled We Do Recover. Kinnon also designed the NA logo and served
as the volunteer office manager of NA's World Service Office from the time
it began to 1983.

Kinnon died on 9 July 1985, having spent the last 35 years of his life as a
"clean" and recovering member of Narcotics Anonymous. At the time of his
death, his daring vision of a worldwide autonomous association of recovering
drug addicts had become a reality.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If I ever have an epitaph on my headstone [...] it should read something
like this: All we did was sow some seeds and worked and wrought to make this
work, so that we and others could live -- in Peace, in Freedom and in Love."

James P. Kinnon, 1982

----- Original Message -----
From: michael oates
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:53 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS




DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2190|2184|2005-02-15 10:22:25|timderan|Re: court slips??? Any Info??|
I believe one of the pieces of literature on Corrections work talks about
this.

tmd

-----Original Message-----
From: richard johnson [mailto:hotshots@elltel.net]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:36 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] court slips??? Any Info??



I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704


>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2191|2191|2005-02-15 10:27:28|groovycharacterdefects|Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster|
In a post concerning Ed Webster and his book, "Stools and Bottles,"
I read that one of Ed's other books, "Bar Room Reveries," is very
rare. I have a copy of "Bar Room Reveries," which I read often and
lend to friends. I was wondering if the book is valuable or
historically significant? If it is historically important, I'll be
much more careful with it in the future, to ensure preservation.

Thanks for your time
& Kind Regards,
Brian
| 2192|2192|2005-02-15 10:47:57|Jim Blair|NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954|
These Drug Addicts

Cure One Another



By Jerome Ellison


A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction - has been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they help users out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining engineer, the hot musician, the minister and the movie actor.







Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance band, was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small gathering in a New York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years ago, "fooling around for thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band went on the road. One night in Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and became so shaky he couldn't play. It was the first time the band management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent home.

"Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.

His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug addicts who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to make this freedom secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The New York group, founded in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of several which have been piling up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics Anonymous can help release people from other drugs than alcohol - drugs such as opium, heroin, morphine and the barbiturates.

The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few. The population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but incompatible authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of Narcotics estimates that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses $275,000,000 a year. About 1000 people a month are arrested for violation of Federal, state or local laws regulating the opiates. Addiction to the barbiturates, it is believed, involves more people. There are some 1500 known compounds of barbituric acid, some of them having pharmaceutical names and others street names such as yellow jacket, red devil and goofball.

Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted person or an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three young addicts met and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual reactions; the third went into convulsions and in a few hours was dead. Many barbiturate users daily consume quantities, which would be lethal to a normal person. Others have demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates for years, under medical supervision, without raising their consumption to dangerous levels.

The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to pilfering from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his children's lunch money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family doctor? As a ruse to flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated a doctor for several months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with the newcomer. Then he shares his hope and finally, sometimes, his recovery.

To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or more and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some of these, including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been pronounced medically hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient membership of about eighty men and women patients. The group mails a monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who want it, currently a list of 500 names. Many of these are interested but nonaddicted friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who have left the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few weeks to several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely affiliated fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the addicts term for a state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with volunteer A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton, Virginia, has a prisoner group which attracts thirty men to its weekly meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New York is the sole "free world"-outside of institution-group which conducts its own weekly open-to-the-public meetings in the A.A. tradition.

Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium. References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to Homer, Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care. Opium was employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy and Coleridge are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its dual role it appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man in surgery and his enemy in addiction.

The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that time the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to one of his patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a desperate drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses, the doctor admitted that his treatment had been a failure.

"Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a profound religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted to know, could such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on order, the doctor said, but if one associated with religious-minded people for a while _______



Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother



The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford Group, found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The friend sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New York stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had much use for religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business trip to Akron, Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able to keep his sobriety unless he passed on the message. He sought out a heavy drinking local surgeon named Bob and told him the story to date. They sat down and formulated a program for staying sober-a program featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message, and the news spread. The now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday Evening Post of March 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there were A.A. groups in the major cities.

In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll call Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and the local A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began helping other alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales executive who can be called Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but also morphine. A.A. took care of the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's drug habit unchanged. Interested and baffled, Houston watched his new friend struggle in his strange self-constructed trap.

The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's pattern had been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over, get drunk again and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted. He drove through a red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The officer found morphine and turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with the result that Harry spent twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both voluntary and involuntary patients are accommodated, as a prisoner. After his discharge he met Houston and, through A.A., found relief from the booze issue. The drug problem continued to plague him.

During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences which A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his employers to Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington. "Harry's troubles kept jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was convinced that the twelve Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as for alcohol if conscientiously applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H. Vogel, the medical officer then in charge at Lexington. I told him of our work with Harry and offered to assist in starting a group in the hospital. Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on Feb. 16, 1947, the first meeting was held. Weekly meetings have been going on ever since."



The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"



Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence, Harry reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending meetings. He was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again. "This time," he says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol and drugs for more than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his story at meetings, in the A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.

In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named Dan who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the doctors assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This same Dan later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group in New York. Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently incurable addict apparently cured.

An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts, and Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three years old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster physician and spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor in a Kansas City hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and Illinois. When he was sixteen he developed an ear ailment and was given opiates to relieve the pain. During and after an operation to correct the condition he received frequent morphine injections. Enjoying the mood of easy, floating forgetfulness they induced, he malingered.

Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer drugs, and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An addict at the hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he was able to recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster mother professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact to himself, was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs began to close up, and one day there was no morphine to be had. He went into an uncontrollable panic which grew worse each hour.

There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears gushing from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights. It was Dan's first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness which is experienced sooner or later by every addict.

In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few weeks to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer function properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from habit may be illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of gum. His unease would be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum and also water, on which he is physically dependent, he'd feel an increasingly painful craving called thirst. The drug addict's craving is called the "abstinence syndrome," or withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases it includes everything Dan experienced, plus hallucinations and convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the death of a healthy person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known to. The violent phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under expert care be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and ordinary habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.

This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members say, to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit of using his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision before he is physically and medically back to par, the temptation to relapse may be overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the addict most needs the kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields to the call of habit, physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his body calls for ever greater doses as the price of peace.

Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half dozen withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state institutions, and numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden and complete abstinence, the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the withdrawal pangs with alcohol, and found it only cancelled out his ability to think, so he automatically returned to drugs. When he attempted withdrawal with barbiturates he "just about went goofy."

All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he had no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an addict in the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as a salesman and traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit and his scrapes with the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting from one employment to another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in Brooklyn.

His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods of abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan was an able sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten Island girl. They had a son. Dan continued to have short relapses, however. Each new one put a further strain on the family tie. For a time, to save money for drugs, he used slugs in the subway turnstiles going to and from work. He was spotted by a subway detective and spent two days in jail. A month later he was caught passing a forged morphine prescription. As a result, he was among the first prisoner patients at the new United States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts at Lexington, when it was opened on May 28, 1935.

After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs for good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug pushers he found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved his money and sent for his family. By this time, however, it was too late; his wife refused to come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave me what I thought was a good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports. After that, his deterioration accelerated. On his seventh trip to Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound depression.

After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I still wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was impressed by what Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us his story. For the first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I would die, but at least it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he recover. Within six months of his discharge he was found in possession of drugs and sent back to Lexington for a year-his eighth and, as it turned out, final trip.

"This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston and Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a Southern city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in the same mood I was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change. The three of us used to have long talks with Houston every Saturday morning, besides the regular meetings." All three recently celebrated the fifth anniversary of their emancipation from the drug habit.

Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of the Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help. He proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it Narcotics Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested they start weekly meetings.

There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter named Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on hand for the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would be; nobody it seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or "twelfth step," work of the new group would be hampered by the law. When the A.A. member is on an errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants, administer appropriate "medicine" to stave off shakes or delirium long enough to talk a little sense into the prospect. If the N.A. member did so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug peddlers were not enthusiastic about the new venture. Rumors were circulating discrediting the group.

Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness and help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street cafeteria. Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting room. Two doctors backed their oral support by sending patients to meetings. Two other doctors agreed to serve on an advisory board.

There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes marred by obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained faithful and the group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were worked out by trial and error. Some members once thought that a satisfactory withdrawal could be made at home. Some hard nights were endured and it was concluded that the doctors were right-for a proper drug withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts are not admitted to meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make their withdrawal first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without drugs.

Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been answered, constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600 addicts have attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective living without drugs. One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now doing well on his own. One relapse after the first exposure to N.A. principles seems to have been about par, though a number have not found this necessary. "A key fact of which few addicts are aware," Dan says, "is that once he's been addicted, a person can never again take even one dose of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol and the barbiturates, without running into trouble."

The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned outsiders. The room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than twenty-five turn up, crowded.

There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about nine o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and department -store cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat the well-known prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." The secretary then introduces a leader-a member who presents the speakers and renders interlocutor's comments from his own experience with a drugless life. The speakers-traditionally two in an evening-describe their adventures with drugs and with N.A. In two months of meetings I heard a score of these case histories. I also charted the progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom, whose first N.A. meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.

Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription pad of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken advocate of psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of ribbing as the groups "psychiatric salesman." Florence, the housewife-cashier-secretary, recently celebrated her first anniversary of freedom from morphine, which she first received twenty-five years ago in a prescription for the relief of menstrual cramps. Carl, an electrician, became interested in the effects of opium smoke thirty years ago, and reached a point where he could not function without his daily pipe. He eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.

Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities began using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards alcohol as his main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with self-prescribed barbiturates before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian, to N.A. Pat, another young advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from the barbiturates to which he had become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl have now been four years without drugs; Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat, one.

Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still enjoys as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present teen-age population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American Harlem, was one of the group's first members. Along with a number of her classmates, she began by smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical introduction to drugs-then took heroin "for thrills." She used the drug four years, became desperately ill, went to Lexington and has now been free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero, became a heroin addict because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to which he aspired, being hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the pusher who frequented the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There followed seven miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says, "really found friends."

Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early in his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly alarmed at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out. N.A. friends recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by which a patient may commit himself under a local statute to remain at Lexington 135 days for what the doctors consider a really adequate treatment. He attended meetings in the hospital and more meetings when he got home. Now happy and grateful, he thanks N.A. His boss recently presented him with a promotion; his wife recently presented him with a son.

Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed meeting at the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was permitted to attend a closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss the daily application of the twelve steps.

The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was raised as to whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination and do more harm than good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the proper application. A life of drug addiction, they said, often built up an abnormal load of guilt and fear, which could become so oppressive as to threaten a relapse unless dealt with. When the addict used step 4 honestly to face up to his past, guilt and fear diminished and he could make constructive plans for his future.

The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There was Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid kits in the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and took his first morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge his curiosity led him to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington, where the Narco Group struck a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to New York to see him, and on his return to Washington looked around to see what he could do. He discovered that there was a concentration of addicts in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton, Virginia. Working with Alcoholics Anonymous, which already had meetings in the prison, he obtained permission to start a group like the one at Lexington. Now a year old, these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract the regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world group, but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering them to A.A. meetings for doctrine.

Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in A.A.'s founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The average A.A., he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug addiction, and rightly reply that this specialty is outside his understanding. There are, however, a few A.A.'s who have been addicted both to alcohol and drugs, and these sometimes function as "bridge members."

"If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears 'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many ex-addicts, in the larger population centers where meetings run to attendances of hundreds, attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming Drug) Group, which is activated by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic of the Los Angeles area named Betty, has dozens of members, but no meeting of its own. Individual ex-addicts who are "making it" the A.A. way include a minister in a South-eastern state, a politician in the deep South, a motion-picture mogul in California and an eminent surgeon of an Eastern city. The role call of ex-addict groups is small. There is the parent Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000, Lexington, KY; Narcotics Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.; Notrol Group, c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay Area Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.

A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually interested is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do they get the stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history explaining how opiates come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors used them freely to treat the innumerable ills then lumped under the heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic injection of morphine was introduced in 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine preparations were common drugstore items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1 per cent of the population was addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave of legislation swept the country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and culminating in the Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after the passage of this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin soared. A fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of heroin purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and sold in America.

Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined. Dr. Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority on narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the traffic in narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In an address before the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the financial props could be knocked from the illegal industry by minor revisions of present laws and rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming more widespread. Doctor Howe proposes a system of regulation similar to that of the United Kingdom, which reports only 364 addicts.

Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our British cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just slightly less grim than it might have been five years ago. Since then a few addicts have found a way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction to a normal life which may seem humdrum enough at times, but which when lost, then regained, is found to be a glory.





Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2193|2192|2005-02-15 11:29:50|Mel Barger|Re: NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954|
Hi Folks,
It was a pleasant surprise to receive the Saturday Evening Post article on
Narcotics Anonymous authored by Jerome Ellison, whom we called Jerry. Jerry
wrote a very nice spiritual biography called "Report to the Creator" which
detailed his own drinking life and recovery. I visited him once in his home
in Guilford, Connecticut. He was also the author of "Twelve Steps and the
Older Member," a Grapevine series which he later published privately as a
book.
He passed away many years ago, but did stay sober all his life.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954


>
> These Drug Addicts
>
> Cure One Another
>
>
>
> By Jerome Ellison
>
>
> A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction -
> has been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they
> help users out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining
> engineer, the hot musician, the minister and the movie actor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance
> band, was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small
> gathering in a New York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years
> ago, "fooling around for thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band
> went on the road. One night in Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and
> became so shaky he couldn't play. It was the first time the band
> management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent home.
>
> "Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.
>
> His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug
> addicts who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to
> make this freedom secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The
> New York group, founded in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of
> several which have been piling up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics
> Anonymous can help release people from other drugs than alcohol - drugs
> such as opium, heroin, morphine and the barbiturates.
>
> The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few.
> The population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but
> incompatible authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of
> Narcotics estimates that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses
> $275,000,000 a year. About 1000 people a month are arrested for violation
> of Federal, state or local laws regulating the opiates. Addiction to the
> barbiturates, it is believed, involves more people. There are some 1500
> known compounds of barbituric acid, some of them having pharmaceutical
> names and others street names such as yellow jacket, red devil and
> goofball.
>
> Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted
> person or an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three
> young addicts met and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual
> reactions; the third went into convulsions and in a few hours was dead.
> Many barbiturate users daily consume quantities, which would be lethal to
> a normal person. Others have demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates
> for years, under medical supervision, without raising their consumption to
> dangerous levels.
>
> The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to
> those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a
> principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by
> another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to
> pilfering from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his
> children's lunch money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family
> doctor? As a ruse to flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated
> a doctor for several months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with
> the newcomer. Then he shares his hope and finally, sometimes, his
> recovery.
>
> To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective
> ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or
> more and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some
> of these, including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been
> pronounced medically hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States
> Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient
> membership of about eighty men and women patients. The group mails a
> monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who want it, currently a list
> of 500 names. Many of these are interested but nonaddicted
> friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who have left
> the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few weeks
> to several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely
> affiliated fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the
> addicts term for a state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous
> meetings with volunteer A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton,
> Virginia, has a prisoner group which attracts thirty men to its weekly
> meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New York is the sole "free world"-outside
> of institution-group which conducts its own weekly open-to-the-public
> meetings in the A.A. tradition.
>
> Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two
> historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium.
> References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to
> Homer, Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care.
> Opium was employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy
> and Coleridge are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its
> dual role it appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man
> in surgery and his enemy in addiction.
>
> The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich
> office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that
> time the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to
> one of his patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a
> desperate drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses,
> the doctor admitted that his treatment had been a failure.
>
> "Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a
> profound religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted
> to know, could such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on
> order, the doctor said, but if one associated with religious-minded people
> for a while _______
>
>
>
> Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother
>
>
>
> The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford
> Group, found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The
> friend sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New
> York stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had
> much use for religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business
> trip to Akron, Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able
> to keep his sobriety unless he passed on the message. He sought out a
> heavy drinking local surgeon named Bob and told him the story to date.
> They sat down and formulated a program for staying sober-a program
> featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill
> devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message, and the news spread. The
> now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday Evening Post of March
> 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there were A.A. groups in
> the major cities.
>
> In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll
> call Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and
> the local A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began
> helping other alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales
> executive who can be called Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but
> also morphine. A.A. took care of the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's
> drug habit unchanged. Interested and baffled, Houston watched his new
> friend struggle in his strange self-constructed trap.
>
> The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's
> pattern had been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over,
> get drunk again and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted.
> He drove through a red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The
> officer found morphine and turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with
> the result that Harry spent twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both
> voluntary and involuntary patients are accommodated, as a prisoner. After
> his discharge he met Houston and, through A.A., found relief from the
> booze issue. The drug problem continued to plague him.
>
> During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences
> which A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his
> employers to Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington.
> "Harry's troubles kept jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was
> convinced that the twelve Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as
> for alcohol if conscientiously applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H.
> Vogel, the medical officer then in charge at Lexington. I told him of our
> work with Harry and offered to assist in starting a group in the hospital.
> Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on Feb. 16, 1947, the first meeting
> was held. Weekly meetings have been going on ever since."
>
>
>
> The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"
>
>
>
> Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence,
> Harry reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending
> meetings. He was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again.
> "This time," he says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol
> and drugs for more than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his
> story at meetings, in the A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.
>
> In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named
> Dan who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the
> doctors assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This
> same Dan later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group
> in New York. Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently
> incurable addict apparently cured.
>
> An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts,
> and Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three
> years old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster
> physician and spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor
> in a Kansas City hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and
> Illinois. When he was sixteen he developed an ear ailment and was given
> opiates to relieve the pain. During and after an operation to correct the
> condition he received frequent morphine injections. Enjoying the mood of
> easy, floating forgetfulness they induced, he malingered.
>
> Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer
> drugs, and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An
> addict at the hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he
> was able to recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster
> mother professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact
> to himself, was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs
> began to close up, and one day there was no morphine to be had. He went
> into an uncontrollable panic which grew worse each hour.
>
> There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears
> gushing from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights.
> It was Dan's first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness
> which is experienced sooner or later by every addict.
>
> In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body
> adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few
> weeks to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer
> function properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from
> habit may be illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of
> gum. His unease would be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum
> and also water, on which he is physically dependent, he'd feel an
> increasingly painful craving called thirst. The drug addict's craving is
> called the "abstinence syndrome," or withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases
> it includes everything Dan experienced, plus hallucinations and
> convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the death of a healthy
> person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known to. The violent
> phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under expert care
> be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and ordinary
> habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.
>
> This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members
> say, to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit
> of using his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision
> before he is physically and medically back to par, the temptation to
> relapse may be overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the
> addict most needs the kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields
> to the call of habit, physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his
> body calls for ever greater doses as the price of peace.
>
> Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half
> dozen withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state
> institutions, and numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden
> and complete abstinence, the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the
> withdrawal pangs with alcohol, and found it only cancelled out his ability
> to think, so he automatically returned to drugs. When he attempted
> withdrawal with barbiturates he "just about went goofy."
>
> All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he
> had no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an
> addict in the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as
> a salesman and traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit
> and his scrapes with the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting
> from one employment to another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in
> Brooklyn.
>
> His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods
> of abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan
> was an able sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten
> Island girl. They had a son. Dan continued to have short relapses,
> however. Each new one put a further strain on the family tie. For a time,
> to save money for drugs, he used slugs in the subway turnstiles going to
> and from work. He was spotted by a subway detective and spent two days in
> jail. A month later he was caught passing a forged morphine prescription.
> As a result, he was among the first prisoner patients at the new United
> States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts at Lexington, when it
> was opened on May 28, 1935.
>
> After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs
> for good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug
> pushers he found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved
> his money and sent for his family. By this time, however, it was too late;
> his wife refused to come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave
> me what I thought was a good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports.
> After that, his deterioration accelerated. On his seventh trip to
> Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound depression.
>
> After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group
> meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I
> still wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was
> impressed by what Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us
> his story. For the first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I
> would die, but at least it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he
> recover. Within six months of his discharge he was found in possession of
> drugs and sent back to Lexington for a year-his eighth and, as it turned
> out, final trip.
>
> "This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston
> and Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a
> Southern city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in
> the same mood I was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change.
> The three of us used to have long talks with Houston every Saturday
> morning, besides the regular meetings." All three recently celebrated the
> fifth anniversary of their emancipation from the drug habit.
>
> Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of
> attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of
> the Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help.
> He proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it
> Narcotics Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested
> they start weekly meetings.
>
> There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly
> gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter
> named Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on
> hand for the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would
> be; nobody it seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or
> "twelfth step," work of the new group would be hampered by the law. When
> the A.A. member is on an errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants,
> administer appropriate "medicine" to stave off shakes or delirium long
> enough to talk a little sense into the prospect. If the N.A. member did
> so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug peddlers were not enthusiastic
> about the new venture. Rumors were circulating discrediting the group.
>
> Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness
> and help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street
> cafeteria. Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting
> room. Two doctors backed their oral support by sending patients to
> meetings. Two other doctors agreed to serve on an advisory board.
>
> There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes
> marred by obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained
> faithful and the group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were
> worked out by trial and error. Some members once thought that a
> satisfactory withdrawal could be made at home. Some hard nights were
> endured and it was concluded that the doctors were right-for a proper drug
> withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts are not admitted to
> meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make their withdrawal
> first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without drugs.
>
> Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been
> answered, constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600
> addicts have attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective
> living without drugs. One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now
> doing well on his own. One relapse after the first exposure to N.A.
> principles seems to have been about par, though a number have not found
> this necessary. "A key fact of which few addicts are aware," Dan says, "is
> that once he's been addicted, a person can never again take even one dose
> of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol and the barbiturates, without
> running into trouble."
>
> The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to
> thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned
> outsiders. The room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than
> twenty-five turn up, crowded.
>
> There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about
> nine o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and
> department -store cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat
> the well-known prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I
> cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to
> know the difference." The secretary then introduces a leader-a member who
> presents the speakers and renders interlocutor's comments from his own
> experience with a drugless life. The speakers-traditionally two in an
> evening-describe their adventures with drugs and with N.A. In two months
> of meetings I heard a score of these case histories. I also charted the
> progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom, whose first N.A.
> meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.
>
> Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual
> histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an
> optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription
> pad of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken
> advocate of psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of
> ribbing as the groups "psychiatric salesman." Florence, the
> housewife-cashier-secretary, recently celebrated her first anniversary of
> freedom from morphine, which she first received twenty-five years ago in a
> prescription for the relief of menstrual cramps. Carl, an electrician,
> became interested in the effects of opium smoke thirty years ago, and
> reached a point where he could not function without his daily pipe. He
> eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.
>
> Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and
> Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities
> began using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards
> alcohol as his main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with
> self-prescribed barbiturates before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian,
> to N.A. Pat, another young advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from
> the barbiturates to which he had become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl
> have now been four years without drugs; Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat,
> one.
>
> Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age
> heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still
> enjoys as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present
> teen-age population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American
> Harlem, was one of the group's first members. Along with a number of her
> classmates, she began by smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical
> introduction to drugs-then took heroin "for thrills." She used the drug
> four years, became desperately ill, went to Lexington and has now been
> free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero, became a heroin addict
> because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to which he aspired, being
> hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the pusher who frequented
> the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There followed seven
> miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a
> veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says,
> "really found friends."
>
> Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early
> in his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly
> alarmed at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out.
> N.A. friends recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by
> which a patient may commit himself under a local statute to remain at
> Lexington 135 days for what the doctors consider a really adequate
> treatment. He attended meetings in the hospital and more meetings when he
> got home. Now happy and grateful, he thanks N.A. His boss recently
> presented him with a promotion; his wife recently presented him with a
> son.
>
> Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed
> meeting at the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was
> permitted to attend a closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss
> the daily application of the twelve steps.
>
> The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make
> a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was
> raised as to whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination
> and do more harm than good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the
> proper application. A life of drug addiction, they said, often built up an
> abnormal load of guilt and fear, which could become so oppressive as to
> threaten a relapse unless dealt with. When the addict used step 4 honestly
> to face up to his past, guilt and fear diminished and he could make
> constructive plans for his future.
>
> The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There
> was Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid
> kits in the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and
> took his first morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge
> his curiosity led him to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington,
> where the Narco Group struck a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to
> New York to see him, and on his return to Washington looked around to see
> what he could do. He discovered that there was a concentration of addicts
> in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton, Virginia. Working with Alcoholics
> Anonymous, which already had meetings in the prison, he obtained
> permission to start a group like the one at Lexington. Now a year old,
> these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract the
> regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world
> group, but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering
> them to A.A. meetings for doctrine.
>
> Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol
> sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in
> A.A.'s founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The
> average A.A., he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug
> addiction, and rightly reply that this specialty is outside his
> understanding. There are, however, a few A.A.'s who have been addicted
> both to alcohol and drugs, and these sometimes function as "bridge
> members."
>
> "If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears
> 'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many
> ex-addicts, in the larger population centers where meetings run to
> attendances of hundreds, attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming
> Drug) Group, which is activated by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic
> of the Los Angeles area named Betty, has dozens of members, but no meeting
> of its own. Individual ex-addicts who are "making it" the A.A. way include
> a minister in a South-eastern state, a politician in the deep South, a
> motion-picture mogul in California and an eminent surgeon of an Eastern
> city. The role call of ex-addict groups is small. There is the parent
> Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000, Lexington, KY; Narcotics
> Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.; Notrol Group,
> c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay Area
> Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.
>
> A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually
> interested is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do
> they get the stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history
> explaining how opiates come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors
> used them freely to treat the innumerable ills then lumped under the
> heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic injection of morphine was introduced in
> 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine preparations were common drugstore
> items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1 per cent of the population was
> addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave of legislation swept the
> country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and culminating in the
> Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after the passage of
> this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin soared. A
> fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of
> heroin purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and
> sold in America.
>
> Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked
> there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined.
> Dr. Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority
> on narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the
> traffic in narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In
> an address before the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the
> financial props could be knocked from the illegal industry by minor
> revisions of present laws and rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming
> more widespread. Doctor Howe proposes a system of regulation similar to
> that of the United Kingdom, which reports only 364 addicts.
>
> Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our
> British cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just
> slightly less grim than it might have been five years ago. Since then a
> few addicts have found a way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction
> to a normal life which may seem humdrum enough at times, but which when
> lost, then regained, is found to be a glory.
>
>
>
>
>
> Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2194|2186|2005-02-15 13:51:55|Bill Lash|Re: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS|
Jimmy Kinnon from California started the current version of NA. There are
two great websites for
NA History at http://www.mwbr.net/narchive &
http://www.na-history.org/speaker_audio.html


Just Love,

Barefoot Bill





-----Original Message-----
From: michael oates [mailto:moates57@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:54 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS




DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2195|2186|2005-02-15 13:54:28|marathonmanric|NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS|
I don't have it in front of me now, but the book which relates this
information is "Slaying the Dragon" by Bill White

Ric from Miami, Area 15, dist 10

Modertor's note: see pgs 239-241 in the cited reference
| 2196|2196|2005-02-16 09:09:08|rwj426|Bill W's funeral|
THE NEW YORK TIMES MONDAY FEBRUARY 15, 1971
500 Meet at St. John's to Mourn Loss of Bill W.
By Paul L. Montgomery

"He was my inspiration, and not mine alone," said Marty M.; one of
the first women members of Alcoholics Anonymous. "He was one of the
most gifted human beings who ever lived on this earth. She spoke at a
memorial service yesterday afternoon at the Cathedral Church of St.
John the Divine for William Griffith Wilson, the co-founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous, who died Jan.24.

In the tradition of the group whose inspiration he was, Mr. Wilson
was known during his life as Bill W. His full name, like that of the
other co-founder, Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith, was disclosed only after
death. Dr. Smith died in 1950.

About 5000 members and others; including Mr. Wilson's wife, Lois,
gathered in the crossing of the cathedral for the service, one of
many held throughout the world yesterday to honor the founder. There
was fond laughter at remembrance of his first direct and sometimes
irascible ways, reverent silence when his virtues were described, and
a few tears.

"When we saw him, we knew we were in the presence of greatness," said
Bob H., general manager of the group's World Service Office. "Bill
really needs no panegyrics from us, no monuments. We just have to
think of the half million recovered alcoholics," Dr. John L. Norris,
chairman of the group's board of trustees, recalled that Mr. Wilson,
after doing much to develop the group therapy methods, decreased his
role in the organization to promote group responsibility.

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness." Dr. Norris, a retired physician, was not an
alcoholic, so he acts, as he says "the face man" for the group and
allows his name to be used. "I drink once in a while," the doctor
said in an interview. "It doesn't do much for me though."

The service was conducted by the Rev. Yvelin Gardner of St. George's
Episcopal Church, Hempstead, L.I.; Rabbi David Seligson of the
Central Synagogue, 55th Street and Lexington Avenue, and Father Joe
A., a Catholic priest, read prayers.
| 2197|2184|2005-02-16 10:07:40|Nick Hernandez|Re: court slips??? Any Info??|
I've heard that slip signing started in Lincoln Nebraska around 1959
when a lawyer in AA was nominated to the bench and started the
practice. His rational was that some familiarity with AA wouldn't
hurt and might do them some good.

Nick

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "richard johnson"
wrote:
> I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30
days in jail
> or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704
>
>
> >
> >
> > There is 1 message in this issue.
> >
> > Topics in this digest:
> >
> > 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> > From: "jlobdell54"
> >
> >
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> > From: "jlobdell54"
> > Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> >
> >
> > The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> > died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> > 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the
GRAPEVINE
> > notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> > born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> > Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
| 2198|2196|2005-02-17 05:41:06|Arkie Koehl|Re: Dr Norris' Comments at Bill W's funeral|
Thanks for the NY Times obit.

I was amused to read:

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness."

In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write
the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is
usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group
consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an
adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times
reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu
| 2199|2199|2005-02-17 05:41:49|unclebearboy@yahoo.com|Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book|
I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
local areas?

Do you know who any of them are?


~ bILL
| 2200|2191|2005-02-17 05:43:00|sbanker914@aol.com|Re: Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster|
In a message dated 2/15/2005 1:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
groovycharacterdefects@yahoo.com writes:

I was wondering if the book is valuable or
historically significant?

A Google search reveals that a signed copy is selling for $75.

Susan Banker


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2201|2196|2005-02-17 06:14:19|Bob McK|Re: Dr Norris' Comments at Bill W's funeral|
Our Regional Historian, Rick S., just sent out Dr. Norris's full talk and
yes he said "group conscience" and not words that sound like it. Don't take
this rendition as gospel! Go back to more original sources since I had to
fix internet-altered punctuation and one typo. But this is the gist of his
talk.

Bob

DR. NORRIS' TALK
MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL
NEW YORK, N. Y. FEB 14TH, 1971


Our beloved Bill is dead. Evan as I stand before you and say the
words, I cannot really believe that it is true. In my heart I choose to
believe that Bill is here with us at this very moment. And I somehow can
almost hear him saying in that half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh
come on now Jack, do you really think all this fuss is necessary?"

Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of Trustees, shortly after
Bill's passing, there was a rather lively discussion about a matter
involving the whole fellowship. When it had reached a certain level of
intensity, I found myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so often did
and say those few words that would put everything in perspective. But he
didn't speak. And it was then that I realized way down deep that we would
never hear his voice again...that we could no longer count on the constant
presence of his wisdom and strength. We could never again say as we had said
so many times before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at least, have not
yet come to accept this completely.

Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a man of stubborn will
and purpose. How else could he have lived through the years of frustration,
failure, and discouragement while the steps, the traditions, and the
conference were being hammered out on the anvil of hard experience with the
first few groups? That he had the self-honesty, the clarity of vision to see
the vital necessity for the Third Step, and turning one's life and will over
to a Higher Power is just one part of our great good fortune that Bill
lived. I have seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility. And I have
been present when people from far countries have met him for the first time
and started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter - could do was stand
there and look like he wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no saint,
although many of us wanted to make him into one. Knowing this, he was
insistent that legends about him be kept to a minimum - that accurate
records be kept so that future generations would know him as a man. He was a
very human person -- to me an exceptionally human person.

Bill's constant concern during almost all of the years that I knew him was
that Alcoholics Anonymous should always be available for the suffering
alcoholic--that the mistakes that led to the fading of previous movements to
help alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure of his greatness is the
clarity of his vision of the future in his determination to let go of us
long before we were willing to let go of him.

Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer determined to relinquish the
role of founder because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say, come of age
and take complete responsibility for itself. He had an abiding faith that
our Fellowship not only could, but should run without him. Repeatedly,
during the last few years, he has said in General Service Conference
sessions "We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that the wisdom of A.A.
came out of church basements and not from the pulpit; that it was directed
from the groups to the Trustees rather than the other way around. He
sometimes felt, though, when the Conference disagreed with him as it
sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be better informed, but it was
this way that we really shared experience and developed strength and
confidence that the answers would work out.

Bill knew that it was not one voice that should be heard, but many thousands
of voices. And it was his gift that he was able to listen to them all, then,
out of the noise and confusion discern the group conscience. Then he would
put it all together, the tension of argument would fade, and everyone would
realize that his answer was right. What Bill's death means to me now is,
that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates, the Trustees--will have to
listen much more carefully than we once did in order to make out the voice
of the group conscience.

And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained us for it beginning in
St. Louis in 1955. For this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel of
communication within the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous that would make
it possible for everyone to be hear: from the individual through the group,
to the delegates and to the Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to
extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very moment crying out in the
darkness of his night as he reaches for help.

In closing, I want to say that it has been an honor for me to have had this
opportunity to participate with you in giving thanks to God that Bill lived
and was given the wisdom and strength and courage to make the world a better
place for all of us. There are many more things I could say, but what can
one say finally of a man's goodness and greatness? How many ways can you
take his measure? I cannot do it or say it for any of you -- only for
myself. He was the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above everything, he
was a man. And I believe that he left his goodness and greatness and wisdom
with us, for any of us to take in what measure we can. May God grant us the
wisdom and strength to keep Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive,
unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so easily spoil it.


-----Original Message-----
From: Arkie Koehl [mailto:arkie@arkoehl.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:05 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Norris' Comments at Bill W's funeral



Thanks for the NY Times obit.

I was amused to read:

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness."

In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write
the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is
usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group
consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an
adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times
reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu








Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2202|2199|2005-02-17 08:51:42|Hugh D. Hyatt|Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book|
unclebearboy@yahoo.com is alleged to have written, on or about 02/17/05
05:03:
>
> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
> local areas?
>
> Do you know who any of them are?

One is fairly good friend of mine who I met when I came into the rooms in
1992. She had less than a year's sobriety at the time. Most people do
not know that she's the author of a story in the Big Book. She doesn't
say that she is in her story. She obviously has quite a bit of humility
about it. Those of us who do know are -- as far as I can tell, which may
not be very far -- generally people who knew her before her story was
published and so do not treat her like a celebrity.

I also once met another author of a story from the Big Book at a meeting
in NJ. I didn't know till after we'd left the meeting and never would
have guessed it if I hadn't been told. He certainly didn't act like a
celebrity and no one at the meeting treated him that way. I have no idea
how many people knew that his story had been published.

--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

Liberty has never come from government.
Liberty has always come from the subjects of government.
The history of liberty is the history of resistance.
-- Woodrow T. Wilson
| 2203|2125|2005-02-18 17:43:49|Kimball Rowe|Re: Big Book Editions|
In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions



What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2206|2206|2005-02-19 10:19:43|gentle_bear|Re: Digest Number 709|
Hi Guys,
I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
Is this the total global estimate?
Where is this figure from?
Regards
Robin F.
Queensland
Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Big Book Editions
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
Subject: Re: Big Book Editions

In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions



What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

Clyde; alcoholic,
I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone
outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom
and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us
to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to
keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and
film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for
the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom
are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the
regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I
believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in
part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone
seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to
know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to
agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to
wonder about.

Love in fellowship, Clyde G.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 2207|2207|2005-02-20 06:04:41|J. Carey Thomas|change ? to BB text|
Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------
| 2208|2208|2005-02-20 06:06:20|ArtSheehan|Special Post - Anonymity|
To the AA members in the AAHistoryLovers (AAHL) special interest group

AAHL is neither an AA group nor an AA entity. While AAHL is not bound
by AA’s anonymity Traditions, everything possible will be done to
respect them.

Some recent posts have been distributed which inadvertently reveal the
identity of an AA member (the pseudonym used to disguise the member’s
identity is far too easy to figure out).

The message of concern (and others containing embedded copies of it)
cannot be recalled but the archived copies have been deleted.

The error was an honest one and every effort will be made to avoid
repeating it.

Arthur S
Co-Moderator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2209|2209|2005-02-20 06:09:25|MikeB|Re: Digest Number 707|
On Feb 17, 2005, at 10:51 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
> local areas?
>
> Do you know who any of them are?

I really had to chuckle at your questions, since I know one of the
authors quite well, and he's certainly not considered a celebrity
although he's a fine member of Alcoholics anonymous.

Mike B.
| 2210|2206|2005-02-20 06:11:31|Kimball Rowe|Re: Digest Number 709|
The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can be found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on 2002 and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken out by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.

Kim

----- Original Message -----
From: gentle_bear
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709


Hi Guys,
I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
Is this the total global estimate?
Where is this figure from?
Regards
Robin F.
Queensland
Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
the gift of life to a sick child.
Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Big Book Editions
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
Subject: Re: Big Book Editions

In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions



What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

Clyde; alcoholic,
I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone
outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom
and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us
to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to
keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and
film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for
the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom
are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the
regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I
believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in
part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone
seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to
know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to
agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to
wonder about.

Love in fellowship, Clyde G.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------







Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Get unlimited calls to

U.S./Canada




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2211|2206|2005-02-20 09:17:07|Doug B.|Re: Digest Number 709|
I just looked in my final report and the total number is not 2.6 million.

It is 2,066,851 .... so the number should have been written 2.06 million.
(thats a difference of 600,000 members....or 29% of the actual membership)

These are the actual membership estimates:

United States was 1,187,169
Canada was 96,446
Correctional Facilities was 66,509
Internationalists was 70
Lone members was 204
Total is 1,350,398

Outside US and Canada was 716,453

Grand Total (estimated) is 2,066,851

I find that there is no substitution for the actual source of information,
whenever possible, because folks make mistakes...then others will quote
them....and then the myth becomes "truth" in some minds....thats one reason a group like this exists....to seek the actual truth.

Doug B.

[Ref:] 2004 Final Report, Our Singleness of Purpose - The Cornerstone of AA,
from the staff report on page 32

The 54th Annual Meeting of the
General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous




Kimball Rowe wrote:

> The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can be found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on 2002 and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken out by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.
>
> Kim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gentle_bear
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709
>
> Hi Guys,
> I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
> Is this the total global estimate?
> Where is this figure from?
> Regards
> Robin F.
> Queensland
> Australia.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
> the gift of life to a sick child.
> Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
> There are 2 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Big Book Editions
> From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
> 2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
> From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
> From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
> Subject: Re: Big Book Editions
>
> In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
> direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
> Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
> to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
> conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
> the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
> which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
> Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
> the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.
>
> A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
> the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.
>
> On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
> general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
> is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
> conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
> in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
> conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
> recovers is his opinion.
>
> Kim
> In love and Service
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions
>
> What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
> pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?
>
> Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
> Edition?
>
> Who originally made this decision?
>
> I am looking for documented historical sources.
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Jim
> California
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
| 2212|2207|2005-02-20 11:07:03|Robert Stonebraker|Re: change ? to BB text|
Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill
was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could
have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to
"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)

And

On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I
think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid anything
that would look like a claim of 100% result."

Bob S.




-----Original Message-----
From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text


Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------







Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2213|2213|2005-02-20 11:08:43|DeafAA@aol.com|History|
Hello

I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during 1940's or 1950's???

Jane

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2214|2206|2005-02-20 11:10:18|ny-aa@att.net|Re: Digest Number 709|
An Advisory Action by the 1995 General Service Conference authorized work on a Fourth Edition of the Big Book. It repeated previous decisions that the first 164 pages, the\Prefaces, the Prologues, "The Doctor's Opinion," "Dr. Bob's Nightmarem" ane the Appendices remain as is.

The area delegates to the General Service Conference are from the United States and Canada. Certainly they considered the needs of alcoholics in other countries and those who were incarcerated (total estimate of 1,922,269) but they directly represented the group conscience of 1,251,192 A.A. members that year.
| 2215|2213|2005-02-20 16:11:08|Ernest Kurtz|Re: History|
Hi Jane,

I doubt that you will find the exact information you seek (unless
someone else on this listserv knows it) but there is a wealth of general
information at http://www.dhh12s.com/index.htm Not much history, I'm
afraid, but I am often amazed at what I find browsing such pages.

ernie

DeafAA@aol.com wrote:

>
> Hello
>
> I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings
> during the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob
> during 1940's or 1950's???
>
> Jane
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cfd4js7/M=324658.6070095.7083352.3001176/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109012923/A=2343726/R=0/SIG=12ida89nd/*http://clk.atdmt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=1108926523659646>
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
| 2216|2216|2005-02-20 17:27:42|ArtSheehan|Response to Inquiry About Big Book Editions|
The 1st edition

In November 1937, Bill and Dr Bob met in Akron. Bill had ideas for a
chain of hospitals, paid missionaries and a book of experience to
carry the message to distant places. His ideas passed by 2 votes among
18 members (1 vote actually made the difference).

Up to December 1938, the recovery program was made up of 6 Steps
(passed on to new members by word of mouth). Bill changed this to 12
written Steps to add clarity and close loopholes the alcoholics were
wiggling through. Differing versions of the 6 Steps are listed in “The
Language of the Heart,” “AA Comes of Age,” “Pass It On” and the Big
Book Pioneer story “He Sold Himself Short."

In March 1939, a heavily edited manuscript was turned over to Tom
Uzzell, an editor at Collier’s and a member of the NYU faculty. The
manuscript was variously estimated as 600 to 800 pages. Uzzell reduced
it to 400 pages. Most cuts came from the stories.

On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the 1st edition of “Alcoholics
Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy ($46 a copy today). The
printer was told to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large,
bulky volume became known as the “Big Book” and the name has stuck
ever since. The idea behind the thick and large paper was to convince
the alcoholics they were getting their money’s worth.

Despite many assertions to the contrary, the Big Book does not
"precisely" (in the sense of "exactly") describe the recovery program
used by the first 100 members. The book actually transformed the 6
Step recovery program then used into something quite different. In the
literary sense "precisely" simply means "short and to the point."

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was from 1 to 179
(not 164). “The Doctor's Opinion” was originally page 1. “Bill's
Story” did not become page 1 until the 2nd edition.

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the 1st edition. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual awakening” and “as the result of these steps” was changed
to “as the result of those steps.” The appendix “Spiritual Experience”
was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular
spiritual experience like the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The
changes emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type
that the psychologist William James called the “educational variety.”

The 2nd edition

In April 1952, based on a 1951 advisory action, the Board formed a
special committee on literature and made a report to the 1952
Conference. The Board recommended literature items that should be
retained and future items that would be needed. Bill W also reported
on the literature projects he was engaged in. One of them included
updating the story section of the Big Book.

The Conference unanimously approved the Board proposals and Bill's
projects. This led to Conference-approval of the 2nd edition and
retroactive approval of the 1st edition and several pamphlets.

In 1955, AA’s 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention
occurred in St Louis, MO. AA came of age. The General Service
Conference became the Guardian of the Traditions and group conscience
of the entire Fellowship. The 2nd edition Big Book was also published.
30 new personal stories were introduced.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition. The term “as the result of those steps” was restored
to “as the result of these steps.”

The 3rd edition

The 1976 Conference approved the 3rd edition.

300,000 copies of the 1st edition were distributed from 1939 to 1955.
1,150,000 copies of the 2nd edition were distributed from 1955 to
1976. 19,550,000 copies of the 3rd edition were distributed from 1976
to 2002. Distribution reached the 1 million mark in 1973 and the 22
million mark in 2001.

4th edition

The 2002 Conference approved the 4th edition. More than 3,000,000
copies of it have been distributed so far. Big Book distribution
surpassed 25 million copies in January 2005.

Changes to the basic text

Contrary to popular belief, many wording changes have been made to the
“basic text.” In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term
"ex-alcoholic" was replaced by "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

Other changes updated numerical values to show growth (e.g. "scores"
changed to "hundreds" changed to "thousands" etc). Also, foot notes
were added. Several web sites have tables detailing all the wording
changes from edition to edition.

The sentiments of the membership

The basic text is "protected" from radical change by the prevailing
sentiment of the entire AA Fellowship. Changes can be made by
Conference advisory action but it’s doubtful they would get very far.

As early as the 2nd edition (1955) Bill W sensed that the Fellowship
was resistant to changing the basic text. The inside flap of the 2nd
edition dust jacket states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1
to page 165 [sic] remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of
most AAs, this should stand as first written."

The foreword to the 3rd edition probably best describes it with the
statement "Because this book has become the basic text for our Society
and has helped such large numbers of alcoholic men and women to
recovery, there exists a sentiment against any radical changes being
made to it. Therefore, the first portion of this volume, describing
the AA recovery program, has been left untouched in the course of
revisions made for both the second and third editions."

Several Conference advisory actions for the 4th edition reaffirmed
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text,
appendices and “Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to remain "as is."

Cheers
Arthur
| 2217|2217|2005-02-20 23:33:27|Glenn Chesnut|New articles on AA history|
Articles and essays from the Hindsfoot Foundation webpage have been appearing in the AAHistoryLovers for quite some time. They have been on topics like early AA prison groups, early black AA leaders, the role of the Upper Room in helping shape the spirituality of the Big Book, the authors of Twenty-Four Hours a Day and The Little Red Book, and so on.

It has been decided to discontinue doing this, because the way AAHistoryLovers messages have to be posted, it is difficult to format many of the articles so that they can be read easily, and even more important, it is impossible to include photos of first editions and people and places.

If however you would like to continue to read them when they come out, could you please send us an email at "hfaabooks" hyphen "mail" at "yahoo" dot "com":

hfaabooks-mail@yahoo.com

If this link doesn't work, click on this link instead -- http://hindsfoot.org/hfaabooks.html -- and then click on the email address given on that page.

Every month or so, when a new article or essay comes out, an email will be sent to your address giving the title of the piece and a link which you can click on if you want to read it.

If later on you decide that you don't want these notices coming, just let us know at the same email address, and we'll remove you from the list immediately. (This is just a little private sub-account in the e-mail system we use for corresponding with authors when we are editing their books. It's handy for this purpose because there is a button we can click in that separate address folder and send the same email to a number of people simultaneously.)

Or you can just check the Hindsfoot Foundation site itself every once in a while:

http://hindsfoot.org/

This address takes you to the home page. At the bottom of that page, there is an index of all the articles and essays arranged in reverse chronological order. The ones at the top of the list are the ones which have appeared most recently.

Thanks,

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2218|2207|2005-02-21 15:47:58|Bill Lash|Re: change ? to BB text|
"Rarely - or Never?"

How co-founder Bill Wilson answered a frequently asked question.

The AA Grapevine, December 1978

From time to time over the years, some AA members will question the wording
of the first sentence of Chapter 5 of Alcoholics Anonymous: "Rarely have we
seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Why, the
enthusiastic member asks, doesn't the Big Book say, "Never have we seen a
person fail..."?

This question was answered - several times - by an AA well qualified to
speak on the subject, since he wrote the book, with the assistance of other
early members.

Bill Wilson, AA's co-founder, answered a 1961 letter from Minnesota with
these words (preserved, like those of the following letter, in the archives
at the AA General Service Office): "Concerning your comment about the use of
the word 'rarely" in Chapter 5 of the Big Book: My recollection is that we
did give this considerable thought at the time of writing. I think the main
reason for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid anything that would
look like a claim of a 100% result. Assuming, of course, that an alcoholic
is willing enough and sane enough, there can be a perfect score on [a person
of this sort]. But since willingness and sanity are such elusive and
fluctuating values, we simply didn't want to be too positive. The medical
profession could jump right down our throats.

"Then, too, we have seen people who have apparently tried their very best,
and then failed, not because of unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of
physical tension or some undisclosed quirk, not known to them or anyone
else. Neither did we want to over encourage relatives and friends in the
supposition that their dear ones could surely get well in AA if only they
were willing. I think that's why we chose that word. I remember thinking
about it a lot.

"Maybe some of these same reasons would apply to present conditions. Anyhow,
I do know this: The text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds of tens of
thousands of AA’s that even the slightest change creates an uproar."

*************************

In 1967, Bill made the following reply to a Florida member asking the same
question: "Respecting my use of the word 'rarely,' I think it was chosen
because it did not express an absolute state of affairs, such as 'never'
does. Anyhow, we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely.' My few efforts
to change the wording of the AA book have always come to naught - the
protests are always too many."

*************************

And at the 1970 General Service Conference, this Ask-It-Basket question was
addressed directly to Bill: "If there was any change you would make in the
Big Book, would it be to change the word 'rarely' to 'never' at the start of
Chapter 5.

Bill answered, "No."

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:43 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text

Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill
was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could
have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to
"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)

And

On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I
think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid
anything
that would look like a claim of 100% result."

Bob S.

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text

Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2219|2219|2005-02-21 22:02:54|Keith Dunn|1st Edition, 7th printing|
Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing
shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there
are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into
account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that
the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and
the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more
books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay
within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for
information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?
Love and Service, Keith D

*****
Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who
can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this
straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists
directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of
research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.
Thanks for your help.
| 2220|2220|2005-02-23 17:01:09|righteousthug|Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II|
It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
think about it.

Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.

Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
diaspora because of the aviation industry.

I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
(apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.

My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
that WWII had on the spread of AA?

/rt
6/14/88
| 2221|2221|2005-02-23 17:01:20|Audrey Borden|Re: Deaf People in AA|
Greetings everyone,

Regarding Jane's recent question about deaf AA members, this isn't much but
it might be helpful. The information is from Bob P.'s unpublished material
(from the section on Special Purpose groups in AA):

* The first group of AA for deaf and hearing impaired members was formed
in Los Angeles in 1962.

* In 1985 the AA General Service Office listed over a hundred groups and
contacts for deaf members.

Perhaps the Los Angeles Central Office could put you in touch with someone
who knows more about the history of this first group, or the archivist at
the General Service Office.

Regards, -- Audrey in California


Message: 3
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:29:11 EST
From: DeafAA@aol.com
Subject: History


Hello

I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during
the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during
1940's or 1950's???

Jane
| 2222|2222|2005-02-23 17:03:28|Mel Barger|McGhee Baxter|
Hi Friends,

In "On the Tail of a Comet," Garth Lean's splendid biography of Frank Buchman, there's a mention on page 140 of McGhee Baxter, who is described as an alcoholic whom Buchman had helped. Baxter resumed drinking, however, and was apparently quite a problem for the Oxford Group team that went to South Africa in 1929. He was reportedly pursuing Eleanor Forde in the hope of marrying her, but she wisely resisted his charms!

McGhee later was in Richmond, Virginia, and was one of the early AA members there. In "Pass It On," pp. 170-173, Bill Wilson explains to a Richmond member why AA separated from the Oxford Group. Though not mentioned in the book, the Richmond member was McGhee Baxter. McGhee also may have lived for a time in Weaverville, N.C.

Eleanor Forde later married Jim Newton, who was responsible for carrying the O.G. message to "Bud" Firestone in Akron, thus starting a chain of events that resulted in the 1933 Oxford Group rally that brought in several people who would help Dr. Bob and the early Akron AA members. Some years ago, I spent a pleasant afternoon in Ft. Myers Beach with Jim and Ellie Newton. They remembered McGhee fondly and were delighted to hear that he may have found sobriety in AA.

Does anybody have any information about McGhee and how he fared in AA? He was obviously a very conscientious and devoted AA member at the time he wrote to Bill. The Newtons have passed on (Ellie lived to be 103), but it would still be interesting to know how things worked out for McGhee.

McGhee also appears to have been an Oxford Group member who made an early transition into AA. Nell Wing did some research and concluded that quite a few O.G. members found their way into AA.
Mel Barger




~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2223|2219|2005-02-23 17:06:20|ArtSheehan|Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing|
Hi Keith

From the information I have (see below). it shows 20,000 copies for
the 8th printing. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this figure and
am uncomfortable with it. Plus the number you cite (5,000 copies)
seems much more consistent with the trend of the war years
mobilization period from 1941 thru 1943.

AA membership exploded after the War. I have a table that contains
figures on the number of Big Books distributed over the years but very
little info on the printings.

Printings of Alcoholics Anonymous First Editions

1st - Apr 1939, 4,730 Printed, Red Binding
2nd - Mar 1941, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
3rd - Jun 1942, 5,000 Printed, Light Blue Binding
4th - Mar 1943, 3,500 Printed, Green Binding
5th - Jan 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
6th - Jun 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
7th - Jan 1945, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
8th - Feb 1945,20,000 Printed, Blue Binding
9th - Jan 1946, 20,000 Printed, Blue Binding
10th - Aug 1946, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding
11th - Jun 1947, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding
12th - 25000 Printed, Blue Binding
13th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
14th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
15th, - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
16th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
_____

From: Keith Dunn [mailto:werdunn_99@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing

Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000.

The eighth printing shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945.

But, taking into account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay within government guidelines.

Any suggestions as to where to go for information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?

Love and Service, Keith D













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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2224|2224|2005-02-23 17:23:47|WCompWdsUnl@aol.com|Singleness of Purpose|
Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the principle of
Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members. Who? When? Why?
Under what circumstances? Were there any members who disagreed, if so, why?
etc>

Thank you,

Larry W.
(Atlanta, GA)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2225|2225|2005-02-23 17:24:54|courtautomation|Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg|
Hi Folks!
Thanks for having this fantastic group!

I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and
Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's
family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about
whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?

Thanks in advance for the help.

-Craig S.
Alcoholic
| 2226|2225|2005-02-24 04:18:54|Jeffrey Johnson|Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg|
Craig,

Below, please find a compilation of posts to AAhistorylovers from the summer of 2003 regarding the topic of �Swedenborgian roots in AA�. Please be aware, you should search the AAhistorylovers archive during that period, as there may be additional relevant information in other posts. These particular posts were of interest to me, and as a result, they are the only ones I saved.

Regards,
Jeff J

They must be thinking of Lois Wilson as Swedenborgian. Her grandfather, Nathan Clark Burnham, was a Swedenborgian minister in Lancaster, PA. We can assume that some of this influenced Lois. The connection is mentioned on page 2 of "Lois Remembers," published in 1979 by Alanon.

Mel Barger

Lois Wilson's paternal grandfather, Nathan Clarke Burnham, practiced law, medicine and was also a minister of the Swedenborgian Church. He wrote a book "Discrete Degrees" about the relation Swedenborg had found between the spiritual and natural life.

Re the book "Lois Remembers" page 2.

On January 24, 1918 Lois and Bill were married in the Swedeborgian Church in Brooklyn, NY.

Cheers
Arthur

I wouldn't be surprised if all four of them (Bill W., Lois, Dr. Bob, and Ann) had read some Swedenborgian material at some point, because they were all fascinated with unconventional religious movements, spiritualism, and so on -- it's a possibility, but I've never run across any specific references. Perhaps someone else in the AAHistoryLovers could come up with a specific reference?

But I wonder if your Swedenborgian chaplain got something a little garbled here, and left out a step or two in the transmission process. William James, author of The Varieties of Religious Experience, had a profound effect on the founders of A.A. -- we all know that.

William James' father was a Swedenborgian theologian, and I should imagine that a Swedenborgian would notice many things in The Varieties of Religious Experience (some of the questions asked, and the kind of data that James was looking at, and some of the interpretations) that were the product of a Swedenborgian upbringing. And the Swedenborgians may still claim William James as "one of their own," which may have been why the chaplain made that statement.

So it is possible that all that the chaplain was really referring to was the heavy use which Bill and Bob and Lois and Ann made of The Varieties of Religious Experience and the ideas of William James.

On the other hand, there may have been more involved -- which would be very interesting to know -- so I too would be curious to find out if anyone else in the AAHistoryLovers group knows of any specific references to the Swedenborgians in the lives (and reading) of Lois or Ann.

Glenn Chesnut, Indiana University (South Bend)

P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772) was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and visionary in his later years (direct contact with the angels, etc.). He insisted that the spiritual realm was more basic than the material realm, and that the Universe had a fundamental spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is God, and God is in everything.

Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox et al.) and similar movements which came later on. The New Jerusalem Church (the group which his followers formed) established their first congregation in the United States at Baltimore in 1792, and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians worldwide. I've seen their place in Boston.

courtautomation <courtautomation@excite.com> wrote:

Hi Folks!

Thanks for having this fantastic group!

I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and
Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's
family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about
whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?

Thanks in advance for the help.

-Craig S.
Alcoholic

Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2227|2224|2005-02-24 04:20:14|ArtSheehan|Re: Singleness of Purpose|
The Washington Temperance Society

In April 1840, six drinking friends in Baltimore, MD formed the
“Washington Temperance Society” and later became known as the
“Washingtonians.”

They required a pledge of total abstinence and attendance at weekly
meetings where members would relate their stories of drunkenness and
recovery. As a body, they recognized no religion or creed. They were
politically neutral and each member was supposed to help alcoholics
who were still drinking.

Over the following years, Washingtonian membership evolved to consist
primarily of non-alcoholic temperance advocates and a large number of
adolescents who were under age 15.

Their membership reached several hundred thousand but the number of
alcoholics in the mix was likely well under 150,000.

As the membership makeup changed, sentiments shifted away from
reforming (or helping) alcoholics, to pursuing a legal means of
prohibiting alcohol. Washingtonian practices came to be viewed as
outmoded and interest in them faded. There was no sudden or massive
collapse. They simply faded out of existence over time.

Some claim that issues such as Washingtonian involvement in religion,
politics and abolition of slavery led to their downfall. While there
were some incidents of this, there is not much compelling evidence to
support the conclusion that it played any real significant role in the
Washingtonian’s downfall.

The root cause of the Washingtonian’s downfall appears to be their
major departure from their original membership makeup (of all
alcoholics) and their major departure from their original primary
purpose (of one alcoholic trying to help another alcoholic).

It’s a powerful lesson on the importance of AA’s Traditions.

________________________________________
From: WCompWdsUnl@aol.com [mailto:WCompWdsUnl@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:40 AM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of Purpose


Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the
principle of 
Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members.  Who?
When?  Why?
Under what circumstances?  Were there any members who disagreed, if 
so, why?
etc>

Thank you,

Larry W.
(Atlanta, GA)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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| 2228|2219|2005-02-24 04:21:14|Ken WENTZ|Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing|
Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would be worth today?

My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need to have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated

Ken W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2229|2220|2005-02-25 09:16:56|Ernest Kurtz|Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II|
Hi RT,

Not much has been written of the effect of WWII on AA. There is a lot
"between the lines" in *AA comes of Age*. A current scholar, Rich
Dubiel, who is stydying AA styles in Newfoundland, learned that AA got
to that island only after the war.

But what a great topic fow whoever is going to be revising *Not-God*!
And we had better get to that generation fast

ernie

righteousthug wrote:
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| 2230|2225|2005-02-25 09:17:12|Hugh D. Hyatt|Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg|
As a life-long practicing Swedenborgian, this has been a topic of great
interest to me even from the time before I joined A.A. Some of my fellow
alcoholic Swedenborgians see a profound influence of Swedenborgianism on
Bill W. Personally, I do not. To me it seems, at best, to have been a
minor influence and quite likely more indirect, through Jung and James,
rather than through any connection via Lois's family.

My basis for saying this is simply the lack of any clear Swedenborgian
influence in anything I've seen that Bill W. wrote. I am quite familiar
with the church's doctrines and Emanuel Swedenborg's writings. If they
had had a profound impact on Bill, I would expect him to have wrestled
with a different set of issues than he seemed to.

I don't consider myself an expert on the subject of Swedenborgian
influence on Bill. I did forward the original post to a Swedenborgian
minister who I know has an interest in this subject, having corresponded
with him not too long ago about Susan Cheever's biography and her
mentions of Swedenborg. I'm hoping he will respond with something I can
forward to this list.

> P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg
> (1688-1772) was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and
> visionary in his later years (direct contact with the angels,
> etc.). He insisted that the spiritual realm was more basic than
> the material realm, and that the Universe had a fundamental
> spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is
> God, and God is in everything.
>
> Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox
> et al.) and similar movements which came later on. The New
> Jerusalem Church (the group which his followers formed) established
> their first congregation in the United States at Baltimore in 1792,
> and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians worldwide. I've
> seen their place in Boston.

This is a fair summary, except for the allegation that it's a pantheistic
system. While Swedenborg's writings seem to me to recognize an certain
immanence of god (and not every -- maybe even very few -- Swedenborgians
would agree with me on that), the primary doctrine Swedenborg taught was
that Jesus Christ is the one and only god of the universe, spiritual and
natural. He identified Jesus as the incarnation in the natural world of
the Jewish god, Yahweh or Jehovah.

Swedenborg vehemently opposed the division of god into three persons and
the Protestant doctrine of faith alone. "Faith without works is dead" is
a very Swedenborgian thing to say, but Swedenborg himself averred that
the book of James was *not* a part of the Word of God, i.e. not a
divinely inspired book that belonged in the Christian canon. His list
included only five books of the New Testament: the four gospels and
Revelation.
--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

How can you expect to govern a country that
has two hundred and forty-six kinds of cheese?
-- Charles de Gaulle
| 2231|2220|2005-02-25 09:17:37|Dolores Rinecker|Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II|
Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent. I have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in AA Dolores R.





"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:
>
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2232|2232|2005-02-25 09:18:06|Tommy|Information Needed for Big Book Column Inventory History|
Hi everyone,

I am searching for any information on the Creation of the 4th step
inventory used in the Big Book,the column one.I have noticed
liabilities and assest checklist in articles,personal stories in the
Big Book,Grapevine articles,and from speakers themselves.The creation
of the column inventory remains a mystery to me.I would appriciate any
information I could get.Thanks for your help.
Tommy H.
N.Carolina
| 2233|2219|2005-02-26 05:20:51|Pete|Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing|
Ken,

Five years ago I was offered a 1st edition 1st printing Big Book signed by
Bill Wilson. Bill wrote a flap message in the book to "My Dear Pete" in
1951. Looks like the Pete he signed the book for was an AA delegate. As my
name is Pete, I got hooked and bought it after some research.

First, I showed the book to a rare book collector who is in the program and
offered to pay him to appraise the book. He did not charge me and said the
book and message looked valid to him and he said it was simply worth what I
was willing to pay. The bottom third of the flap page had been replaced with
a new piece of paper and he said this is common as many times there was an
Al-Anon message there from Lois and that folks removed and saved those
messages for a number of reasons. He said there simply are not enough of the
early books selling to establish a price structure and he could not price
mine.

Then the book seller, Earl H., an excellent AA archivist in Oklahoma found
some personal letters written in 1961 from a Howard B. to a George (both
delegates) mentioning the Pete B. on the flap of my book that gave good
insight into some of the AA issues of the day for the delegates.

Earl also said he had the book pages treated so that they would not crack
and they are soft and flexible today. The binding had also been repaired. So
I felt I knew who the owned the book and who restored it and that Bill had
written in it. And Earl said there were 4,650 books printed in the first
printing.

My web research in 1999 showed that a number of 1st edition books were being
sold abroad and that the prices were increasing dramatically. There was a
value at that time of about $2,500 for a good condition 1st edition 1st
printing book. I had trouble finding more than a few for sale at that time.
The prices looked like they doubled if Bill had signed the book and the
price doubled if it had an original dust cover because most original buyers
ripped off the bright red/yellow jacket and threw it away. There is a laser
copy reproduction of the original dust jacket that is on my book.

Last year I color photo copied the inside message and the Contents and sent
it to the curator at Stepping Stones to see what she thought of the Bill
Wilson signature and the message and the book. The signature actually reads
Bill Wilson. She said she had never seen a Bill Wilson signature on a book
as he always signed them just Bill. She felt (after years of seeing Bill's
writings) the handwriting was Bill's on my book from the "My Dear Pete" to
the "Bill" but that someone else had added Wilson and I believe she is
correct. She also said I have a good book and to enjoy and treasure it. She
knew of no easy way to place a value on the book or any of the early Big
Books.

This book fired my interest in AA history and membership in this group. It
somehow gives me a connection I needed to Bill as I read it and share it
with others. Recently I spent some time at Stepping Stones and read all
available on the last 60 days of Bill's life and got to see his Big Book. He
had penciled in on the stories in the CONTENTS who was in and out of future
printings - I assume based on sobriety.

Not sure why you need it appraised, but enjoy and treasure it and keep on
sharing it with all interested.

Peace,

Pete K.
PS: Below is a current listing from AbeBooks.com

Alcoholics Anonymous
BILL WILSON]

Price: US$ 20000.00 [Convert Currency]
Shipping: [Rates and Speeds]

Book Description: New York: Works Publishing Company, 1939. Half-title
+ TP + v-viii + half-title + 1-400 + 3 blank leaves, large Octavo. First
Edition, First Printing wth the Original Dust Jacket. " A rare book despite
a press run of 4,650 copies. FIRST PRINTING ISSUE POINTS: Jacket spine and
inside front flap do not have a printing number The binding is red - the
only issue in that color There is gilt lettering on the front cover and the
spine The title page states: "How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered
From Alcoholism". Page 154, line 29: "abberations" misspelled Page 234, line
27: repeats line 26 Dust jacket is a bit faded on spine and very slightly
worn an torn. There are some old tape discolorations along the front edge of
the dust jacket, the rear edge of the dust jacket and in the lower left
corner of the rear panel. There is an old library label affixed to the lower
portion of the spine with "616.86 / AAt" written on it. Nevertheless, this a
VERY honest dust jacket. The book has been dustjacketed throughout its life
with bright and completely intact gilt lettering on the front cover and the
spine. The book has three names neatly written on the front flyleaf: "Dr. R.
S. Bookhammer" / "Reve. A. F Greene" / "Rodney Elder". Otherwise, a bright,
clean and totally unmarked copy. ADDITIONAL PHOTOS AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST.
Bookseller Inventory #000120

Bookseller: Athena Rare Books ABAA (Fairfield, CT, U.S.A.)




----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken WENTZ" <ayceeman@msn.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing



> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would
> be worth today?
>
> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need
> to have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated
>
> Ken W.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2234|2234|2005-02-26 05:21:19|Charles Knapp|WWII & AA in Calif|
Hello from rainy California

Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the growth of
AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19, 1939 in
Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first real
meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in
downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and approx.
10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500 members in
the Southern California. By 1945 the AA population grew to 30 groups and
2,000 members. Interviews of early members contribute the growth to three
things: (1) rapid transportation with the scarcity of automobiles owned by
alcoholics still licensed to drive and (2) the rationing of gasoline due to
World War II. (3) 1941 Saturday Evening Post article.

Up until about April 1941, the Friday night meeting was the only meeting
around. Some members would drive 2 hour one way just to attend the meeting
that was held in the Cecil hotel. Keep in mind there were no freeways back
then. Many of these members paid very close attention on how the meeting was
run and after just a few meeting they tried staring meeting in their
hometowns so they would not have to make that drive each week and use up
their rations.

After the Saturday Evening Post article cane out in March 1941, the New York
office forwarded inquires that came in from all over Southern California to
the Cecil Hotel meeting. At the end of the of the meeting each week those
in attendance were ask if any one was from Palm Springs or San Bernardino,
or from this city or that city. If you raised your hand and gave the town
you were from, you were give a stack of letters told to contact these people
from your city and tell them about AA. Almost all held at least one open
meeting in their town to introduce possible alcoholics to AA. As a result
weekly meeting sprang up almost over night.

Hope this helps

Charles from California
| 2235|2225|2005-02-26 06:44:06|corafinch|Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg|
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "courtautomation"
wrote:

>
> I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
> history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
> generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
> current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

With regard to Jung, Swedenborg seems to have increased his respect for modes of
understanding that operate outside of everyday consciousness. Jung's thinking about
"exceptional experiences" derives in part from the theories of Swedenborg.

In Mel B's book on spiritual roots, New Wine, he does not mention Swedenborg but he
does write about Jung's theory of synchronicity. I'm not sure if Mel B thinks that the theory
itself was influential with early AA's, or if it is simply a better explanation than
"coincidence" for some of the occurances in AA's early years.

Synchronicity is a Jungian theory of acausal connection. Here is what Frank McLynn, a
Jung biographer, says about the concept:

"In its simplest manifestation, synchronicity involved the coincidence of a psychic state
with a corresponding and more or less simultaneous external event taking place outside
the observer's field of perception, at a distance, and only verifiable afterwards. A famous
example, often cited by Jung, was that of Emanuel Swedenborg. In 1759 he was staying
with friends in Gothenburg. At 6 PM on a Saturday evening in July he had a vision of the
great fire that broke out that night in Stockholm. He described the course of the fire in
detail to his friends, and when couriers arrived from Stockholm on Monday and Tuesday
with the news,his account was confirmed in every detail. When asked how he had known,
he replied that the angels had told him."

Immanuel Kant wrote a short book about Swedenborg, Dreams of a Spirit-Seeker, which
Jung read during the time (in his early career) when he was most interested in psychic
phenomena. That is apparently where he read the accont about the fire, not through
reading Swedenborg himself. So it appears that Swedenborg was an influence, although
minor.
| 2236|2219|2005-02-26 06:45:20|george cleveland|Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing|
Ken,

Probably the most up to date idea of true value would
be in the realm of eBay. They always have a variety of
first editions for sale. Tracking prices over a week
or two would give you a pretty good idea. A true first
first is a pretty significant item. Even more so if it
has the original dust jacket and clutch the pearls
honey if there's a notable signature.

A suggestion would be to put the future of the book to
group conscience with an eye to the traditions and see
what you come up with. Many states have active
archivists who might be able to help.

Early editions of the BB are wonderful things. It's a
tangible link with a past that has given a future to
so many. BUT it IS a THING and a thing of value. Many
big resentments have been spawned over much less.

Good luck!

George

PS-I once got a first fourteenth at a garage sale for
twenty five cents. One of my best scrounging days
ever!


--- Ken WENTZ <ayceeman@msn.com> wrote:

>
> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First
> edition Big Book would be worth today?
>
> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine
> condition & may need to have it appraised. Any help
> would be appreciated
>
> Ken W.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
| 2237|2234|2005-02-28 02:27:59|Arkie Koehl|Re: WWII & AA in Calif|
Thanks, Charles, for the accurate wording ("The first meeting in
Southern California"). "Pass It On" incorrectly states that LA was the
location of first meeting on the "west coast." On November 21st, 1939,
an AA meeting was held in the Clift Hotel in San Francisco. Ray W., a
New York member, was in SF on a business trip, and had made a contact
with Ted. C., an alcoholic resident at the Duboce Park boarding house
of Zilpa Oram. Ms. Oram had heard about AA on the radio (the Heatter
broadcast?) and had written to the NY office in an effort to get some
help for her tenant.

Arkie
Honolulu

On Feb 24, 2005, at 21:16, Charles Knapp wrote:
>
> Hello from rainy California
>
> Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the
> growth of
> AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19,
> 1939 in
> Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first
> real
> meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in
> downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and
> approx.
> 10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500
> members in
> the Southern California.
| 2238|2238|2005-02-28 02:29:55|John G|Gnostic AA...?|
I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some commentaries on
them.

I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual practices, and
the practices of AA.

Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

Thanks....

John G.



FYI, here are a few gnostic links:

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
-2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2239|2219|2005-02-28 02:30:22|Tom Hickcox|As Bill Sees It/3rd Step Prayer|
A lingering mystery for me has been why the editors of As Bill Sees It
changed the word "victory" to "transcendence" on p. 210, which has the
paragraph containing the Third Step Prayer and an edited version of the
following sentence.

Bill warns us in the Foreword, "Because the quotations used were lifted out
of their original context, it has been necessary in the interest of clarity
to edit, and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them," but I do not see a
need for this change of words.

What was the justification for it?

Tommy in Baton Rouge
| 2240|2238|2005-02-28 11:53:22|Ernest Kurtz|Re: Gnostic AA...?|
Hi John,

No, I do not know of any AA connections with gnosticism, but AA lore and
some of Bill W's comments in the early 1960s suggest that whenever AA
got into a new area, especially in Asia, and some member explained the
12 Steps, the religious leaders of the region would say, "Yes, that is
what we have always believed and thought." Since many gnostic teachings
were close to early Christian beliefs, what you say is not surprising.

Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it in
"") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.
There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact with
an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the stories
of Islamic AAs?

One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were "adapted
to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that faith
to have been able to understand his follow-up.

ernie kurtz


John G wrote:

>
> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some commentaries on
> them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual practices, and
> the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?
>
> Thanks....
>
> John G.
>
>
>
> FYI, here are a few gnostic links:
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> -1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> -2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cs2c8qa/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109672995/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
>
>
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>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
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>
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
| 2241|2238|2005-03-01 19:47:58|Arkie Koehl|Re: Gnostic AA...?|
On Feb 28, 2005, at 6:09, Ernest Kurtz wrote:

> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it
> in "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.

> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
> identification.  Anyone out there who might put me in email contact
> with an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the
> stories of Islamic AAs?
>
> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were
> "adapted to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that
> faith to have been able to understand his follow-up.

I duly Googled the site and found this rather detailed rationale for
the deletion of the phrase:

------------------

"Millati Islami Step Five     

5. We admitted to Allah and to ourselves the exact nature of our
wrongs.

 Having had the experience of thoroughly working through the 12 steps
of Alcoholics Anonymous several times, we can say from our own
experience, that we, in Millati Islami, do understand why in Islam,
Muslims are not to go about advertising their faults to other people.

 We have had personal experience and have heard of others who have
shared their personal stories with, what was believed to be a trusted
person, only to later hear some of the most private details of their
life being discussed publicly. And we are well aware of the AA saying
that says we are as sick as our secrets, and this is not without some
validity.

 In Islam, there is no equivalent to the confessional of other faiths.
Or rather, it should be said that we confess our wrongs to and beg for
forgiveness from Allah alone, Who already knows our defects. We also
are required to mend our ways, to repent, and to do good deeds. Our
belief as taught by Rasulillah (the Messenger of God)(pbuh) is that one
sin equals one sin, and we are rewarded several times over for the one
good deed that we do. This is indeed mercy from the only One that can
dispense mercy, Ar-Rahman (Most Merciful), Allah.

 It is also viewed as a good deed for one brother to cover another
brother’s (or sister’s) faults. This does not mean to not share a
guiding word with any of our straying friends. It simply means that we
do not broadcast theirs or our wrongs to anyone. The reason for this is
to not allow justification for doing wrong to grow from having heard of
so and so doing wrong. And then saying “well so and so has not been
struck down dead from his wrong. If he was forgiven, then I will be
forgiven also”

 Of course there is a difficulty with this step, because the Big Book
of Alcoholics Anonymous says on page 72-73 that we must tell someone
our entire life story if we are to stay sober. How can these two
contrary views be reconciled is the question?  I would say with common
sense we have our answer. In our faith of Islam we have brothers and
sisters that we are close to. Or I should say we should make it our
business to get close to the Ummah (community of believers). It is a
command of Allah that we stand together as one unit. There is not much
witnessed of great harmony among the Ummah today because of outside
influences and of varying schools of thought, but as recovering
Muslims, we have no choice but to tighten our ranks. We NEED each
other. We NEED to share our experience and hope with each other. We
NEED to strengthen and understand each other. It is in this way that we
relieve and assist each other, where Allah allows us, in staying clean
and sober. We then fulfill part of our Islamic responsibility and the
command of Allah to stay unified and not allow division to appear in
our ranks.

Under these life and death circumstances of active drug addiction and
the very real need to stay drug-free, there is no one that we should be
closer to, besides Allah and His Messenger (pbuh), than to each
recovering/repentant Millati Islami brother or sister. To share our
experience strength and hope with each other, in Millati Islami, is our
Step Five.

--------

Arkie
Honolulu
| 2242|2238|2005-03-01 19:49:26|Alex H.|Re: Gnostic AA...?|
> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
> commentaries on them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
> practices, and the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

No. But I've noticed the same thing.

Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is
called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you
will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual
principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just
as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a
number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual
principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general
spiritual principles that can be found in any number of
religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9
1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary
Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different
ways but have a common thread.

One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a
group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of
Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program
for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad
uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish
mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring
Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].

One should use caution when following mysticism and especially
Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this
spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one
should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd
action.

That is truth.

Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.

Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would
leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character
defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In
Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually
made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart
and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you
have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon
your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say
that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required
to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as
suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*
powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the
parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful
enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet
established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We
need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in
my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might
disagree and see the requirement of another person in the
process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be
tempted to remove that requirement.

Alex H.
| 2243|2238|2005-03-01 19:49:37|Barry Murtaugh|Re: Gnostic AA...?|
John and Ernie,

Contact Bart Ehrmann at UNC or Elaine Pagels at Princeton.

They may very well have some sources or guides to the downdrift of
gnostic spirituality into modern times.

Certainly Karen Anderson in several of her works shows how it reveals
itself in strains of sufism and mystic judaism not to mention non
canonical early christian writings.

Barry Murtaugh
Barrington

>
> Hi John,
>
> No, I do not know of any AA connections with gnosticism, but AA lore and
> some of Bill W's comments in the early 1960s suggest that whenever AA
> got into a new area, especially in Asia, and some member explained the
> 12 Steps, the religious leaders of the region would say, "Yes, that is
> what we have always believed and thought." Since many gnostic teachings
> were close to early Christian beliefs, what you say is not surprising.
>
> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it in
> "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.
> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
> identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact with
> an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the stories
> of Islamic AAs?
>
> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were "adapted
> to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that faith
> to have been able to understand his follow-up.
>
> ernie kurtz
>
>
> John G wrote:
>
> >
> > I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
commentaries on
> > them.
> >
> > I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
practices, and
> > the practices of AA.
> >
> > Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?
> >
> > Thanks....
> >
> > John G.
> >
> >
> >
> > FYI, here are a few gnostic links:
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
> >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> > -1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> > -2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > click here
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cs2c8qa/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109672995/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Barry Murtaugh
jbmcmc@voyager.net
| 2244|2244|2005-03-01 19:50:26|Lee Nickerson|Chip Club|
Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?
| 2245|2245|2005-03-01 19:52:55|Lee Nickerson|The Lord's Prayer|
When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?
| 2246|2244|2005-03-03 11:09:22|Jim Blair|Re: Chip Club|
Lee asked
Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?

Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of
the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the
history on them.

Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program
started at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use
medallions in Alcoholics Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St.
Thomas after a five day dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them
that the acceptance of the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A.
and to recovery and that if they were going to drink, they had a
responsibility to return the medallion to her before drinking.

The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew
Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance
Movement of the 1890s.

The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y.
in 1947 and has grown from there.

The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they
celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem
with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink.

Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr.
Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this
phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV,
Sept. 65)

"Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the
local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday
cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a
short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not
stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no
birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from
ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The
group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We
celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets
much of a kick out of that anymore."

The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a
brief summary of some.

Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on
anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor."

July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries.
The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on
a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries.
"The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,
to live for 24 hours without a drink."

August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you
are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes
into the Foundation Fund.

June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We
have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation
period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is
presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety.
The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for
four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine
months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped
with gold A.A. letters.
Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a
group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting.

January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end
of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men
that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his
sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red
one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new
member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a
clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In
some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip,
at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living.

March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a
chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in
the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the
chip away before starting drinking.

October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to
drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him.
He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls
friend.

April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th
anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a
set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans.

July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one
dollar for each year of sobriety.

July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her
sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The
Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk.


April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin
talks."

And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions.
| 2247|2245|2005-03-03 11:09:32|Jim Blair|Re: The Lord's Prayer|
Lee asked

When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What about
the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

The following is a letter by Bill W. on the use of the Lord's Prayer in AA.

The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the
International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and
join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first
time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the
Toronto experience.
---------------------------------------------------------

A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord's Prayer At A.A.
Meetings

April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,
Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of
the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu
that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did
want to explain my delay.
Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting.
This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in
the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA. Comes of Age what the
connection of these people in A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's
Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore
it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.
Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also,
it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document.
Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the
arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is
also true that most A.A.s believe in some kind of God and that communication
and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general
consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the
Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem
necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to
the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel.
However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join
him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst
that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is
doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.
So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter
made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.
Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of
you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days.
Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson


WGW/ni Mr. Russ
From the A.A. Archives in New York
| 2248|2245|2005-03-03 11:10:16|Robert Stonebraker|Re: The Lord's Prayer|
Dear Lee and Group,
The "Lord's Prayer" carried over from the Oxford Group and was used at the
first AA meeting that Clarence Snyder started at Abby Golrick's home; 2345
Stillman Rd, Cleveland Hts., OH, on May 11th, 1939. For verification
please read page 261 of "Dr. Bob And The Good old Timers."

Bob S.





-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Nickerson [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:08 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer



When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?










Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2249|2245|2005-03-03 11:10:32|righteousthug|Re: The Lord's Prayer|
From - http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabwlordprayer.html

A Letter From Bill W. Regarding The Lord's Prayer In A.A.
From the A.A. Archives in New York



----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time
out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon
type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,
however, but I did want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.
meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were
influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA.
Comes of Age what the connection of these people in A.A. really was.
I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the
close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a
general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering.
Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a
Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread
use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems
to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most A.A.s believe in
some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable
through His grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only
right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used
in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer
to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent
of completely hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to
join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.
The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen
to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their
stage of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your
letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the
friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross
one of these days.

Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson

WGW/ni
Mr. Russ



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson"
wrote:
>
>
> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?
| 2250|2245|2005-03-03 11:10:49|Bruce Lallier|Re: The Lord's Prayer|
I first remember the holding of hands from the early to mid 70's in Ct.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@gwi.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer


>
>
>
> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2251|2245|2005-03-03 11:11:34|Ken WENTZ|Re: The Lord's Prayer|
The practice of saying the " LORDS PRAYER " at the end of the meetings & holding hands came from the meetings that were held first, at the home of T. Henry & Clarace Williams in Akron, and at Dr. Bob's house. They would read from the bible then ( there was no " Big Book " ) and conclude with a prayer they were all familiar with. From Dr. Bob & the good old -timers & Pass it on...........................Ken W

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2252|2245|2005-03-03 11:11:44|ArtSheehan|Re: The Lord's Prayer|
Hi Lee

I found the information below on the Lord’s Prayer and its place in
AA.

Cheers

Arthur

A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord’s Prayer At A.A.
Meetings

April 14, 1959

Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time
out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon
type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,
however, but I did want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.
meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were
influential in the early days of AA. You have probably noted in AA.
Comes of Age what the connection of these people in AA really was. I
think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the
close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a
general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary AA gathering.
Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian
document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and
recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a
little farfetched. It is also true that most AAs believe in some kind
of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His
grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only right that at
least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection
with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings
of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely
hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to
join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.
The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to
it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage
of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your
letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the
friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross
one of these days.

Devotedly yours,

Bill Wilson

On page 293 of “As Bill Sees it.” It states:

“He can do this because he now accepts a God who is All - and who
loves all. When he says, ‘Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be
Thy name,’ he deeply and humbly means it …”

General Service Conference Advisory Actions:

1952: all Conference sessions are to open with the Serenity Prayer and
close with the Lord’s Prayer.

1954: the General Service Conference will end with the recitation of
the Lord’s Prayer.

1975: convention meetings will open with the Serenity Prayer and close
with the Lord’s Prayer.

On page 16 of “The AA Group Pamphlet” it states:

Whether open or closed, AA group meetings are conducted by AA members,
who determine the format of their meetings. [Page 19] many meetings
close with members reciting the Lord’s Prayer or the Serenity Prayer.

_____

From: Lee Nickerson [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:08 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer


When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?











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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2253|2253|2005-03-03 11:11:54|lester112985|1st ed, 1st printing errors|
Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st
printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
Thanks
Lester
| 2254|2254|2005-03-03 11:13:39|gentle_bear|AA geographical membership rates|
Hi Folks,

My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of
AA membership was in various countries around the world.

I was able to calculate the following.

These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a
country.

Australia - 0.150%
USA - 0.402%
Canada - 0.297%
New Zealand - 0.095%

Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.

The New Zealand membership census is on their website.

The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its
based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.

Can anyone add to these figures?

The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?

In Fellowship

Robin F.

Brisbane

Australia.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2255|2255|2005-03-03 11:15:35|George Cleveland|Now about sex|
Hopefully that message header won't get this thrown into the spam
file.

The third part of the 4th Step Inventory is about our sex conduct. It
is about our CONDUCT, not the number of notches on the bedpost. In the
instructions for the Resentment portion, the alcoholic is asked to
look at their part in the resentment and answer where they were
selfish, dishonest, self seeking and afraid. In the sex inventory, we
are given a huge magnifying glass and asked to answer 9 questions
instead of four.

Anyone who has done this knows what a transforming process it is and
that it is the jumping off place for the start of the spiritual
awakening that the Big Book says is the whole point of the book.

The reading on sex that begins at the bottom of Page 68 appears to be
a practically perfect manifesto of fairness, directness and, to use
the overused, inclusive.

I have searched the archives here and can't find a reference to the
genesis of this piece and what kind of fallout it may have created. I
am sure that nearly 70 years later, the sex reading raises many
hackles.

I greatly appreciate the thoughtful and sometimes intense research and
scholarship that is evident in this group.

Now....about sex?

George Cleveland
| 2256|2253|2005-03-04 04:40:11|Robert Stonebraker|Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors|
Dear Lester and Group,

One misprint can be found on page 234 where the second and third lines from
the bottom are repeated, e.g.:

". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "

". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "
However, I am not sure whether or not the same misprint occurs in later
printings.

Bob S. from Indiana



1

-----Original Message-----
From: lester112985 [mailto:lgother@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:56 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors



Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st
printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
Thanks
Lester










Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2257|2257|2005-03-04 04:46:07|Robert Stonebraker|Holding hands|
Thanks Jim,

Ten years later I was living in Southern California (1975) and the custom of
holding hands was then prevalent at most groups. However, in 1978, I moved
to a mid-sized town, Richmond, Indiana and the practice was not yet in
vogue. But by the early 1980s most of the groups had begun holding hands.
Of course, here I am not talking about the Responsibility Declaration, but
the Lord�s Prayer.

Bob S.

The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the
International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and
join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first
time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the
Toronto experience.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2258|2253|2005-03-04 05:31:12|Jim Blair|Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors|
Lester wrote

Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.

Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.

The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition

1st Edition - 1st Printing
- Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
- 29 personal stories.
- Price 3.50$.
- Cover is red, only printing in red.
- Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
- Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
- Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
- 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
- Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
- P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
- Published by Works Publishing Company.

1st Edition - 2nd Printing
- Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- 28 personal stories
- Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
- Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
- Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
- Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
- Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
- Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
- P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
- P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
- P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
- P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
- P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
- P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
- P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
- P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
- P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.

1st Edition - 3rd Printing
- Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
- Cover changed to light blue.
- Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
- P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
- P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
- P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
- P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
- P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
- P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
- P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
- P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
- P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
- P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
- P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
- P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
- P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.

1st Edition - 4th Printing
- Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
- Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
- P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
- P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
- P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
- P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
- P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
- P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
- P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
- P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
- P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
- P398-L10, members to older members
- P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
- P398-L16, this book, to this book.
- P398-L16, send money to please send money.

1st Edition - 5th Printing
- Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
- Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
- Last Big Book in size.
- Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
- P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
- P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
- P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.

1st Edition - 6th Printing
- Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
- Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
- Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
- P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
- P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
- P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).

1st Edition - 7th Printing
- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
- Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
- Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
- P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
- P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
- P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
- P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
- P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
- P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
- P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
- P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
- P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
- P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.

1st Edition - 8th Printing
- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
- P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

1st Edition - 9th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
- P323-L20, Two years to several years.

1st Edition - 10th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.

1st Edition - 11th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P178-L20, Him to HIM.
- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

1st Edition - 12th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Decreased height by 1/16.

1st Edition - 13th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .

1st Edition - 14th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in thickness 1/16.

1st Edition - 15th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased in height by 1/16.
- Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.

1st Edition - 16th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.

Last printing of the First Edition.
| 2259|2253|2005-03-04 13:27:10|snowlily|Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors|
Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors


>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2260|1528|2005-03-04 13:41:48|eze_kiel03|Aldous Huxley|
I can find many references to Aldous Huxley's claim that AA was the
greatest social movement of the 20th century, but not the original
source. Where and when did he say or write it?
| 2261|2261|2005-03-04 16:54:57|kilroy@ceoexpress.com|Fwd: Lords Prayer|
It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A. meeting in Philadelphia PA.

Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at
least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us during the prayer.

Kilroy W.
4021 Club
Philadelphia PA


_____________________________________________________________
A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com
| 2262|2262|2005-03-04 16:56:12|Jim Blair|Re: Lone Endeavor Story|
Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim
| 2263|2253|2005-03-04 16:57:16|Bill Lash|Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors|
"Lone Endeavor" (no "The" or "A" in the title) was removed after the first
printing. Namaste!
Just
Love,

Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: snowlily [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:20 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors


Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors


>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2264|2262|2005-03-05 05:19:54|kilroy@ceoexpress.com|Re: Lone Endeavor Story|
Sorry, I hit the wrong button, sent the beginning of my draft
on Pat C. (Lone Endeavor Story). Here is what i wanter to say.
Pat C. Read the manuscript and got sober. He wrote bill in NY
and the NY group took up a collection and sent Pat a bus ticket
to NY. They wanted to show off the power of the written
message. In the mean time the big book was in its final hours
before going to press. Ruth Hock who was Bill W.'s and Hank
P.'s sect. in there office in ND. rushed to writer Pats Story.
To their heart break, when the bus from Calf. pulled into the
NY station Pat C. was on the floor drunk. It was too late the
book had gone to press and the story had to stay for that
while.
Kilroy W
4021 Cuub
Philadelphia PA


_____________________________________________________________
A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com
| 2265|2261|2005-03-05 23:07:01|Corky Forbes|Re: Fwd: Lords Prayer|
We held hands in our meetings in Tulsa, Oklahoma when I came into the program May 4,1965.
I don't know when it had become a ritual. There were four groups in Tulsa at that time.
Corky
----- Original Message -----
From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:35 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Fwd: Lords Prayer



It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A. meeting in Philadelphia PA.

Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at
least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us during the prayer.

Kilroy W.
4021 Club
Philadelphia PA


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| 2266|2262|2005-03-05 23:07:47|kilroy@ceoexpress.com|Re: Lone Endeavor Story|
The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)

--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story




Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim








Yahoo! Groups Links









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| 2267|2238|2005-03-05 23:08:39|alev101@aol.com|Re: Gnostic AA...?|
I believe that this comment is untrue.

In Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

For sins between man and God we, ask God for forgiveness.
For those sins between man and man, we must seek out our man and ask
forgiveness directly.


That is how I explained the 9th step to my parents when I made my formal
direct amends.

Ava
(nice Jewish girl from Brooklyn and sober in AA)

In a message dated 3/1/2005 10:53:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, odat@utj.org
writes:



> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
> commentaries on them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
> practices, and the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

No. But I've noticed the same thing.

Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is
called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you
will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual
principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just
as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a
number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual
principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general
spiritual principles that can be found in any number of
religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9
1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary
Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different
ways but have a common thread.

One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a
group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of
Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program
for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad
uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish
mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring
Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].

One should use caution when following mysticism and especially
Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this
spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one
should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd
action.

That is truth.

Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.

Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would
leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character
defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In
Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually
made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart
and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you
have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon
your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say
that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required
to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as
suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*
powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the
parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful
enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet
established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We
need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in
my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might
disagree and see the requirement of another person in the
process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be
tempted to remove that requirement.

Alex H.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2268|2268|2005-03-05 23:09:08|ny-aa@att.net|Lone Endeavor|
An exchange of letters with a man in California became "Lone
Endeavor" as the last story of the first printing of the first
edition of the Big Book of "Alcoholics Anonymous." The story
was not included in later printings after the man arrived in
New York more than slightly intoxicated.

Did anyone other than Pat C himself verify that he was sober
for as long as he claimed at the time they decided to include
his "Lone Endeavor" story? His mother got the book manuscript
for him. Were there any letters from her saying Pat was sober?
Did they contact the doctors in the state sanitarium?

His letter said, "Six weeks ago I returned from the sanitarium
and your book was here waiting for me. I read, more pored over
it so as not to miss anything. I thought to myself, yes, this
is the only way. God is my only chance. I have prayed before but
I guess not the right way. I have followed out the suggestions
in the book, am happier at this moment than I have been for years.
I'm sure I have found the solution, thanks to ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS."
This does not include an actual sobriety claim like, "I have not
had any alcohol since that day."

He wrote, "I go down to the sanitarium every week for a check-up
and medicine which they give me, just a tonic, no sedative."
Never mind the no sedative part. In 1939, alcohol was a common
ingredient in what was called a tonic. Just what sort of tonic
was he using?
| 2269|2262|2005-03-06 09:44:16|ArtSheehan|Re: Lone Endeavor Story|
First Edition Big Book - First Printing

On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book
“Alcoholics Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to
$46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told
to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became
known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea
behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was
getting his money’s worth.

The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. “The Doctor’s
Opinion” started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray C
(whose Big Book story is “An Artist’s Concept”) designed the “circus
color” dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).

The manuscript story of an Akron member “Ace Full - Seven - Eleven”
was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes
made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories
were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from
the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from
the book in the second printing).

One of the stories “An Alcoholic’s Wife” was written by non-alcoholic
Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob’s story was originally titled “The
Doctor’s Nightmare” and later changed to “Dr Bob’s Nightmare.”

First Edition Big Book - Second Printing



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second
printing of the first edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as the
result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.”



Appendix II, “Spiritual Experience” was added to the book. This was
done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and
spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns
Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were
of the type that the psychologist William James called the
“educational variety.”



The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second
edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story “An Artists Concept”
by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book’s dust jacket). The Spencer
quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work
by Spencer can be found containing the quote.



The story “Lone Endeavor” (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been
ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from a
manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the
book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.



Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story




The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some
how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)

--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story




Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim








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| 2270|2270|2005-03-06 17:25:49|WCompWdsUnl@aol.com|History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous.|
Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I
am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in
places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am
interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from
city to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the
"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities.

Thank you.

Larry W.
Atlanta, GA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2271|2219|2005-03-14 11:06:46|Roger Wheatley|Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing|
I found this letter dated Feb 1945 which would likely be sent from "Works Publishing" to the fellowship explaining the paper reduction requirements of the war effort and the delay. Apparantly we ran out of books at the office waiting for this delivery. Perhaps as you indicate, it was trimmed down to 5000 copies to get through the run and catch up on the publishers work.


Box 459 Grand Central Annex

New York 17, New York



February 12, 1945



NEW WAR TIME EDITION OF THE BOOK

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



Because of the acute shortage of book paper we have repeatedly, on order of the War Production Board, reduced the weight of the paper used in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous.

We have now arrived at the point where because of further reductions in paper we must sharply cut the overall size of the book by trimming margins to a minimum. Happily we shall still be able to use the same book plates so the type face will be as readable as ever.

Practically every publisher has long ago been obliged to make these changes so we hope that AAs everywhere will understand the necessity for them and be glad of this small additional contribution to the war effort.

Our printers are a badly overworked firm and though this new edition was arranged for many months ago, we are told there will be some delay on delivery. We will be out of books by February 15th and will probably not be able to ship copies of the new war time edition until after March first, how long after we do not yet know.

I hope you will all be patient if your orders are delayed somewhat. Please be sure we shall make shipments the moment we can.



WORKS PUBLISHING INC.

BY

Margaret R. Burger (signed)

Margaret R. Burger
Secretary

Keith Dunn <werdunn_99@yahoo.com> wrote:


Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing
shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there
are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into
account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that
the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and
the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more
books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay
within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for
information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?
Love and Service, Keith D

*****
Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who
can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this
straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists
directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of
research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.
Thanks for your help.








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2272|2220|2005-03-14 11:07:22|Roger Wheatley|Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II|
History Lovers and Dolores,
I have the beginnings of a collection on this topic which includes the early Grapevine column "Mail Call" which is now available on GV digital archives to any subscriber. Also we had teh opportunity to interview Pappy, reported as the oldest living member of AA in Belgium. When I asked him through an interpreter how AA started in Belgium 50 years ago (they celebrated in 2004) he gave credit to two Irish Soldiers who came over during WWII and stayed on in Belgium marrying local girls. One of these men 12 stepped Pappy in 1951.
The Frankfurt Group celebrated their 50 year anniverary in 2004 and credited Servce Members with their origins as well as groups in France. It would be an interesting project and I am willing to help uncover more history for anyone capable of piecing it all together.
Dolores, when I move to your neck of the woods this summer, I would like to go through the local archives and see what we can learn or what leads we can generate.
Roger

Dolores Rinecker <dollie@t-online.de> wrote:


Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent. I have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in AA Dolores R.





"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:
>
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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| 2273|2273|2005-03-14 11:07:39|tflynn96|6 tenants of the Oxford Group?|
If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.
| 2274|2273|2005-03-14 11:22:03|Robert Stonebraker|Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?|
There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though he
could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced of
the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects, restitution
to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in and
dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six Steps
listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or p.
263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had twenty-eight
'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.

Bob S., from Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?



If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.










Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2275|2262|2005-03-14 11:29:48|billyk|Re: Lone Endeavor Story|
for information.

there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;
Dicobe Tapes
1020 Lincoln Road
Bellevue, NE 68005
Phone: (402) 291-3381
Fax: (402) 292-6148
Email: dicobesales@dicobe.com
http://www.bellevuenebraska.com/audiovideo.html


that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'
as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.

i have it, read it and found it fascinating.

billyk



--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:

>
> First Edition Big Book - First Printing
>
> On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book
> �Alcoholics Anonymous� were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to
> $46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told
> to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became
> known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea
> behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was
> getting his money�s worth.
>
> The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. �The Doctor�s
> Opinion� started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray
> C
> (whose Big Book story is �An Artist�s Concept�) designed the �circus
> color� dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).
>
> The manuscript story of an Akron member �Ace Full - Seven - Eleven�
> was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes
> made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories
> were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1
> from
> the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from
> the book in the second printing).
>
> One of the stories �An Alcoholic�s Wife� was written by non-alcoholic
> Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob�s story was originally titled �The
> Doctor�s Nightmare� and later changed to �Dr Bob�s Nightmare.�
>
> First Edition Big Book - Second Printing
>
>
>
> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second
> printing of the first edition Big Book. The term �spiritual
> experience� was changed to �spiritual awakening� and the term �as the
> result of these steps� was changed to �as the result of those steps.�
>
>
>
> Appendix II, �Spiritual Experience� was added to the book. This was
> done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and
> spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns
> Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences
> were
> of the type that the psychologist William James called the
> �educational variety.�
>
>
>
> The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second
> edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story �An Artists Concept�
> by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book�s dust jacket). The Spencer
> quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work
> by Spencer can be found containing the quote.
>
>
>
> The story �Lone Endeavor� (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been
> ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from
> a
> manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the
> book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
> _____
>
> From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story
>
>
>
>
> The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some
> how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)
>
> --- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story
>
>
>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?
>
> I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
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> lf/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here
>
>
>
>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grp
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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| 2276|2276|2005-03-14 11:30:56|charlieindallas|Allergy theory|
Gentlemen:

In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
alcoholism is not a true allergy".

Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.

I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.

Grandaddy

Charles Rutherford
AKA Charlie "Brown"
The Lambda Group

Residence 119
5109 Cedar Springs Road
Dallas, TX 75235-8723
214-528-1553
| 2277|1934|2005-03-14 11:31:02|charlieindallas|Re: old preamble|
I am sure that many people have written to inform you that this is
the "TEXAS PREAMBLE". The ending few words are a litle fifferent
from the way I remember it. Check with the Dallas Central Office.-

-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson"
wrote:
> Does anyone know the origin of this?
>
> "We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we
are
> powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without
> the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel that each
> person's religious views, if any are his own affair. The simple
> purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may
> be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves
> regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be.
>
> In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do
> to that Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some
diligence.
> By often repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help
> rendered becomes natural to us.
>
> We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from
a
> serious illness for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may
be
> the result of an allergy which makes us different from other
people.
> It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar,
> permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute
> abstinence, the second meaning of A. A.
>
> There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is
a
> desire to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping
> others to recover.
>
> An Alcohoiics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application
and
> adherence to the A. A. program has forsworn the use of any and all
> alcoholic beverage in any form. The moment he takes so much as one
> drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he
> automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous
> A.A. is not interested In sobering up drunks who are not sincere
in
> their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers. we
> offer our experience only to those who want it.
>
> We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we
> can join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail
who
> has thoroughly followed our program. Those who do not recover are
> people who will not or simply cannot give themselves to this
simple
> program. Now you may like this program or you may not, but the
fact
> remains, it works. It is our only chance to recover.
>
> There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people
> might be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just
> underneath there lies a deadly earnestness and a full realization
> that we must put first things first and with each of us the first
> thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink is to die. Faith must
work
> twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish.
>
> In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our
> heads in a few moments of silent prayer and meditation.
>
> I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting
expresses
> our own individual opinion as of today and as of up to this
moment.
> We do not speak for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or
> disagree as you see fit, in fact. it is suggested that you pay no
> attention to anything which might not he reconcilied with what is
in
> the A. A. Big Book.
>
> If vou dont have a Big Book. it's time you bought you one. Read
it.
> study it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from
it
> what it means to be an A.A."
| 2278|2270|2005-03-14 11:33:07|ny-aa@att.net|Re: History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous.|
For the city by city spread of A.A. for 1944 thru 1948,
check the archives of this AA History Lovers forum like:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messagesearch/1451?query=grapevine%20circuit%20tcumming

That is a series of monthly "News Circuit" articles from the
AA Grapevine. If you subscribe to the AA Grapevine Archives,
you can pull up the same articles there.
| 2279|2270|2005-03-14 11:34:03|Arkie Koehl|Re: History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous.|
Interesting project, Larry.

I'm not sure if your thesis is that AA tends to spread according to
certain patterns? If that is so, you might be interested in the Havana
and Beijing examples, cases with which I'm directly familiar.

The first AA meeting in Cuba took place in the Vedado neighborhood of
Havana in January, 1993. Within two years there were several more
groups in various sections of Havana. In addition to the usual reasons
for growth (word of mouth, resentments), growth was accelerated in this
case by the sorry state of public transportation in Havana at that
time, a result of the loss of Soviet fuel subsidies. Travel was
principally by bicycle, and burdensome if you lived more than a couple
of miles from a meeting. I'm told this difficulty was a major factor in
new group formation.

Beijing's first Chinese (as against ex-patriate) meetings were held in
the An Ding Hospital among current and former inpatients, in 2001. The
meetings were tolerated by the authorities, despite a dislike of
"spiritual programs," and the members were given to believe that
meetings outside of the hospital would be frowned upon. However, when
the SARS epidemic struck in 2003, the hospital was quarantined and the
AA group was freed up to seek other venues. There are now several
groups around Beijing, I believe.

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu


On Mar 5, 2005, at 22:01, WCompWdsUnl@aol.com wrote:

>
> Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, 
> chronologically?  I
> am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and  founding of
> AA, in
> places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron  and New
> York.  I am
> interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of  this fellowship,
> from
> city to city.  I am hoping I can get as complete a  list as possible,
> during the
> "flying blind period of the founding of groups, and  in what cities. 
>
> Thank you. 
>
> Larry  W.
> Atlanta,  GA
| 2280|2280|2005-03-14 12:51:58|Glenn Chesnut|Dates at which AA was started in specific cities|
Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:

"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from city to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the "flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."

Several people have written in responding to this question. To sum up what they said (so we don't have so many messages), one person wrote in saying that there is a book by Bob Pearson (with which I am unfamiliar) giving information on this. It was pointed out that there are timelines at:

http://archivesinternational.org/

And (from the West Baltimore Group)at:

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/chronology_of_aa_groups.htm

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/times.htm

None of these seem to give the kind of detailed list that Larry is really looking for, where it talks about the date at which AA was founded in various specific cities around the U.S. (and around the world), and has all this information gathered together in one place.

There is also Archie M's timeline, which Arthur S. has been involved with, but about which I do not know the details.

At one point, Nancy Olson was posting in the AAHistoryLovers, every month, a list of important dates in AA history: events that had happened during that month in previous years. Nancy did in fact have the dates at which the first AA groups were formed in a number of cities. I think that this would be the best list for Larry W.'s purposes.

Messages 209, 212, 216, 218, and 590 are on this topic. But I cannot find anywhere in the list of past messages, any of those monthly date lists that Nancy put together. I do hope that no one went through and deleted those messages.

Am I looking in the wrong place? Are Nancy's monthly date lists still there among the past postings?

There are articles on the internet talking about AA in individual cities. Detroit, for example, has a nice website. I have been trying to assemble this kind of material on Indiana AA history at http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html giving the founding dates in cities such as Evansville, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, South Bend, Muncie, Anderson, and so on. But that's just Indiana, and Larry wants a list that includes everyplace that AA has spread.

So once again, does anybody know where Larry can find, in one place, a list of when AA was founded in specific cities. None of the date lists and timelines that have been sent in so far, seem to me to give what Larry is actually looking for.

G.C.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2281|2273|2005-03-14 12:57:19|jst4tdy|Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?|
Hi, on page 292 of the third edition Big Book you will find the six tenants
of the Oxford group. Bill M.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "tflynn96" <flynn22896@sbcglobal.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:36 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?


>
>
>
> If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
> that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
> about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
> can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
> Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2282|2262|2005-03-14 12:59:16|ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net|Re: Lone Endeavor Story|
Hey billyk and Group,
Better yet, and more appropriate. for all the personal stories removed from all three Editions of Alcoholics Anonymous, order Experience, Strength, and Hope from AAWS. There is much more archived there, including the early segments "And Now We Are..."
Many AAs try to support the Fellowship by purchasing Conference-approved literature---imagine that!
rickt

----- Original Message -----
From: "billyk" <billyk3@yahoo.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:08 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story


>
>
> for information.
> there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;
> Dicobe Tapes
> that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'
> as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.
> i have it, read it and found it fascinating.
> billyk
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2283|2276|2005-03-14 14:53:31|Billlwhite@AOL.COM|Re: Allergy theory|
Charles,

Dr. William Silkworth presented his allergy theory of alcoholism to
Bill W. (during Bill's stay in Towns Hospital in 1934), elaborated on this
theory in two articles in the late 1930s, and restated this theory in The Doctors
Opinion in 1939.
The greatest elaboration of this concept is in: Silkworth, W. (1937).
Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy. Medical Record, 145:249-251. Here are a
few representative quotes:

"...true alcoholism is a manifestation of allergy."
"...true alcoholism is an allergic state, the result of gradually
increasing sensitization by alcohol over a more or less extended period of time."
"...compares to hay fever in terms of progressive exposure and then
full emergence of disease"
"The patient can not use alcohol at all for physiological reasons. He
must understand and accept the situation as a law of nature operating
inexorably. Once he has fully and intelligently grasped the facts of the matter he
will shape his policy accordingly."

The allergy theory gained little credence in the larger medical
community, although two references are worth noting. Robert Seliger used allergy as
a metaphor to describe the alcoholic's "psychobiological sensitivity" to
alcohol in his 1937 article, The Problem of the Alcoholic in the Community
(American Journal of Psychiatry 95(3):701-716), and the psychiatrist Edward Strecker
and the lay alcoholism therapist Francis Chambers spoke of a "psychic allergy
to alcohol" in their 1938 book, Alcohol: One Man's Meat.
During the mid-1940s, the allergy theory was under scientific attack.
I suspect the "our friends" reference in Living Sober is to opinions
expressed by Howard Haggard and E.M. Jellinek of the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies.
Haggard published the most definitive critique of the allergy theory (Haggard,
H. (1944). Critique of the Concept of the Allergic Nature of Alcohol
Addiction. Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, 5:233-241.) He reviewed the
available scientific evidence and concluded that there was no scientific
foundation for the idea of an allergy that creates a biologically abnormal response to
alcohol among alcoholics.

Hope this helps.
Bill White

In a message dated 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net writes:

> Subj: [AAHistoryLovers] Allergy theory
> Date: 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From: chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net
> Reply-to: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
> alcoholism is not a true allergy".
>
> Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
> anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.
>
> I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
> written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
> title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.
>
> Grandaddy
>
> Charles Rutherford
> AKA Charlie "Brown"
> The Lambda Group
>
> Residence 119
> 5109 Cedar Springs Road
> Dallas, TX 75235-8723
> 214-528-1553
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2284|2273|2005-03-14 14:54:26|Cloydg|Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?|
Does anyone know whether or not Dr. Bob and Bill W. did their steps over
after writing chapter 5? It's my understanding that shortly after Dr. Bob
quit drinking on June10, 1935. He and Bill did their steps together over a
few hours using the 6 tenents. Any information would be appreciated!

Love and service, Clyde G.
| 2285|2280|2005-03-15 13:57:06|ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net|Re: Dates at which AA was started in specific cities|
I need to inform the group that Bob Pearson's AA history book was much more
about the history of the General Service Office than specific growth of
selected cities and AA "Chapters." In my own view of the draft manuscript,
the scope of specific cities' growth was not covered extremely well in it. I
learned a great deal about the GSO relation to the General Service
Conference, and Bob P. did write about trends in AA
with a keen insight.

His book was never published, but was severely compromised from photocopying by
1988s Delegates, which means that there are unauthorized copies of it floating around.

Here are some facts, worthy of further on-site study at the AA Archives at
GSO. There is no better access that I know of outside of in-person, approved
research. Write and call first!

The 1940s Alcoholic Foundation Office described our growth as taking hold in
"Chapters" (cities) and "Sections" (a number of Groups close to each other
in different sections of states or counties, such as, the Long Island
section, the northwest Illinois section, the New England section, etc.). At
Bill+Lois' home in Katonah, NY (Bedford Hills), Bill's writing studio has a
1950s US map with many pins placed where AA Chapters flourished. It is
current to around 1960 and was moved from one of the GSOs to his home and
the "Wit's End" studio ledge.

The most accurate resource of original dates. locations, and growth is the
record of the AA Directories, published every six months beginning in 1940.
Towns, cities, membership numbers, group secretaries names and addresses,
group addresses (PO boxes), telephone numbers, and even semi-annual group
contributions are recorded from registered Groups.

Group membership numbers and contributions are no longer presented in the AA
Directories published today, but the earliest records are still being
researched through the AA Archives in NYC.

Yours in fellowship,
Rick T., Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Chesnut" <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
To: "AAHistoryLovers group" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:44 PM
| 2286|2273|2005-03-15 14:09:49|ArtSheehan|Re: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?|
Actually there are no "6 tenets" mentioned on page xvi of
the Big Book. What it states is:

"From this doctor, the broker had learned the grave nature of
alcoholism. Though he could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford
Groups, he was convinced of the need for moral inventory, confession
of personality defects, restitution to those harmed, helpfulness to
others, and the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

Those "tenets" only add up to 5.

Core principles of the Oxford Group consisted of: the "4 absolutes" of
honesty, unselfishness, purity and love; the "5 C's" of confidence,
confession, conviction, conversion and continuance; and the "5
procedures" of: 1) Give in to God, 2) Listen to God's direction, 3)
Check guidance, 4) Restitution and 5) Sharing for witness and
confession. The OG gave AA the term "sharing." They were also strong
advocates of one member working with another. Dr Bob wrote that this
was a key part of the message carried to him by Bill W when they first
met.

Prior to the writing of the Big Book, the recovery program consisted
of 6 steps passed on to new members by word of mouth. There are 4
differing versions of the 6 steps recorded in AA Literature. They can
be found in the books "The Language of the Heart" (pg 200), "AA Comes
of Age" (pg 160), "Pass It On" (pg 197), the Big Book Pioneer story
"He Sold Himself Short" (pg 292 - 3rd ed, pg 263 - 4th ed) and in the
pamphlet "Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W, Co-Founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous" (pg 8).

Sometimes reference is made to the "6 steps of the Oxford Group." This
is not accurate. The OG did not have any Steps (or "6 tenets" per se).
The alcoholic members of the Akron and New York groups (sometimes
called the "alcoholic squad") developed the "word-of-mouth" versions
of the early 6 steps.

The book "Not God" in its extensive collection of end notes (pg 331,
end note 32) states "AA legend has it that these six steps derived
directly from the OG; this is simply wrong."

In a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin
of the Twelve Steps" Bill W wrote:

". the main channels of inspiration for our Steps were three in number
- the Oxford Groups, Dr William D Silkworth of Towns Hospital and the
famed psychologist, William James, called by some the father of modern
psychology."

"During the next three years after Dr Bob's recovery our growing
groups at Akron, New York and Cleveland evolved the so-called
word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form
a society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our
principles something like this:

1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol.

2. We got honest with ourselves.

3. We got honest with another person, in confidence.

4. We made amends for harms done others.

5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or
money.

6. We prayed to God to help us to do these things as best we could.

Though these principles were advocated according to the whim or liking
of each of us, and though in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by
the OG absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness and love, this was
the gist of our message to incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our
present Twelve Steps were put to paper."

In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 160) Bill wrote: "Since Ebby's visit to me in
the fall of 1934, we had gradually evolved what we called "the
word-of-mouth program". Most of the basic ideas had come from the
Oxford Groups, William James and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to
considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent
procedure, which comprised six steps. These were approximately as
follows:

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over
alcohol.

2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.

3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person
in confidence.

4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our
drinking.

5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward
in money or prestige

6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to
practice these precepts."

Compare the previous two versions with the version below stated by
Bill in an April 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society on Alcoholism.
It illustrates the ways variances can enter into a "word-of-mouth"
program. In describing the visit made by Ebby T to his home, Bill
wrote:

"Next Ebby enumerated the principles he had learned from the Oxford
Group. In substance here they are as my friend applied them to himself
in 1934:

1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life.

2. He became honest with himself as never before; made an
"examination of conscience."

3. He made a rigorous confession of his personal defects and
thus quit living alone with his problems.

4. He surveyed his distorted relations with other people,
visiting them to make what amends he could.

5. He resolved to devote himself to helping others in need,
without the usual demands for personal prestige or material gain.

6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for his life and the
help to practice these principles of conduct at all times."

AA's group number one, in Akron, OH (and later other groups in the
mid-West) were more closely aligned with the OG movement and stayed a
part of the OG until 1939 (the NY group left the OG in 1937). In his
Big Book story "He Sold Himself Short" Earl T (pioneer AA in Chicago)
records a version of the 6 steps used in Akron at the time. Dr. Bob
was his sponsor. The description by Earl varies from the versions used
in New York and is a much more orthodox portrayal of the Oxford
Group's influence:

1. Complete deflation.

2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.

3. Moral inventory.

4. Confession.

5. Restitution.

6. Continued work with other alcoholics.

Although semantic variances exist, the substance is all the same.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:19 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?




There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though
he
could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced
of
the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects,
restitution
to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in
and
dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six
Steps
listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or
p.
263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had
twenty-eight
'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.

Bob S., from Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?



If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2287|2276|2005-03-15 14:09:49|kyyank@aol.com|Re: Allergy theory|
There are also some additional quotes and references in Silkworth, The Little
Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Hazelden Publishing, 2002, Mitchel


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2288|2273|2005-03-15 14:27:37|Ernest Kurtz|Re: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?|
The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The
Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to
find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book
sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,
especially OG insiders.
| 2289|2273|2005-03-16 11:17:10|John G|"Tail of a Comet," was "6 tenets of the Oxford Group?|
Any thoughts about Garth Lean's Frank Buchman biography, "On the Tail of a
Comet?" I'm reading it now, and enjoying it very much, though his quick
chronology on the history of AA founding seems somewhat inaccurate.

John G.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernest Kurtz [mailto:kurtzern@umich.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:06 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?




The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The
Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to
find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book
sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,
especially OG insiders.
| 2290|2276|2005-03-16 11:18:27|cck|Re: Allergy theory|
charlieindallas <chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Gentlemen:

In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
alcoholism is not a true allergy".

Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.

I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.

Grandaddy

Charles Rutherford
AKA Charlie "Brown"
The Lambda Group

Residence 119
5109 Cedar Springs Road
Dallas, TX 75235-8723
214-528-1553







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| 2291|2291|2005-03-16 11:39:32|Naomi Blankenship|Nancy O. in hospital|
Nancy was taken to Mary Washington Hospital on Friday the 11th of
March after a fall. Possible broken leg, maybe hip also. I am
unaware of more details at this time.

Naomi

=========================================
From G.C. (South Bend)

The latest information I have is that both her leg and hip were broken, but that the doctors decided they would not try to operate, because her heart is so weak. So she has to stay in bed lying down, and they are giving her massive pain killers and trying to keep her as comfortable as possible. But she is still in a lot of pain. I think we are all aware that there is no good prognosis at this point.

I don't have any other information past this point. She is in Virginia and I am in Indiana, so I am too far distant to have detailed information. This most recent information I have came via telephone from Lori, an AA friend of hers in Frederickburg, around noon today (Wednesday).

Nancy can't handle receiving messages at this point. She's drifting in and out, and wouldn't be able to understand them.

I will post additional information as I receive it. Since there are over a thousand members of the AAHistoryLovers, I won't be able to respond to individual emails on this -- I apologize in advance, but there would be hundreds I'm sure, because we all loved her so much.

I'm very sorry to have to pass this news along. We just need to pray for her at this point. She is in the Lord's hands, and he will be good to her.
| 2292|2276|2005-03-16 11:41:30|MarionORedstone@aol.com|Re: Allergy theory|
Not God is now published under the name "The Story"

Marion O. Redstone, Atty.
Indianapolis, Indiana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2293|2293|2005-03-16 11:45:03|Glenn Chesnut|Dates when AA was established in individual cities|
Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:

"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from city to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the "flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."

Nancy Olson once had a list put together with a lot of these dates, but the list seems to have disappeared. She got a lot of her dates from pages on the website put together by Doug B. (Riverside, California), beginning with:

http://www.aahistory.com/jan.html

It took Nancy a lot of work to cull out the dates she actually needed, but Doug's date list represents a lot of really good research. It doesn't give every city in the world, but it is the closest thing I have found so far to what Larry W. was asking for.

It would be a really good piece of service work if someone put together a list like the one Larry W. wants. Looking at Doug's list would be the first thing someone would want to do in assembling such a list.

The next thing a person would want to do, would be to look at what "t" has assembled:

This is a series of postings which tcumming (Denton TX) sent in to the AAHistoryLovers, starting with post 1183 [Metropolitan Circuit, June 44] posted on 8/2/03 and ending with post 1450 [New Groups, Aug 48] posted on 11/2/03. This is material from the Grapevine.The New Groups columns will probably be easiest to pull the info from ... then the Metropolitan Circuit and News Circuit columns will require a bit more work to pull out names of groups mentioned that were already in existence [or somehow slid by a New Groups mention].

To look at these messages, call up http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages/ and there will be a place to type in the number of the particular message you want to see, marked Msg #.

You will be able to pick them out of the list of messages easily, because they will all have been posted by tcumming.

http://archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/groups.pdf gives a list of the first 22 cities where AA groups were established, although not the date of the first AA meeting held there. That is very useful information though.

Somebody putting a good list together would need to search on the internet for the AA websites for specific cities, like Detroit. Some of them have some historical information on there, including sometimes the date at which the first AA group was founded in that city.

I think it would also be useful to include a short timeline which was sent to me by "t" (Denton TX), because there are some dates on that list that would need to be included:

===========================================================================
First AA Locations (many had more than one group by the end of 1940 )

Akron June 10, 1935 - Dr. Bob has last drink (some say it may have been June 17, based on date of medical convention he attended.) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS FOUNDED

Nov-Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group.

Meetings moved from T.Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members homes.

Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.

New York Fall & Winter 1935 - Bill back in New York. Begin to hold meetings at 182 Clinton St. Tuesday nights. Hank P and Fitz M get sober.

1937 - Bill and the New York alcoholics split from the Oxford Group. Among residents at Clinton St. were Ebby T., Oscar V., Russell R., Bill C., Florence R.

June 18, 1940 - Meeting held in first 'AA clubhouse', at 334� W. 24th St, NYC. Bert T. & Horace C. guarantee rent for building.

Washington DC 1937 - Fitz M. was spending much of his time trying to get AA started in Washington, by ... fall of 1939 - the nucleus of a small group had been established. Joined by Hardin C., Bill A. and Florence R

Cleveland May 11, 1939 - The first group to officially call itself Alcoholics Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland, OH - old Borton Group (?). 1st group to have no Oxford Group connection.

Dec 1940 - A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups.

Toledo summer 1939 - Charles ("C.J.") K. & Eddie B. 12 stepped Duke P. Toledo, both were in state insane asylum, Toledo, on voluntary commitments, had read Big Book manuscript and got out. Sept 1940 - AA group started in Toledo, Duke P & others started it.

Chicago Sept 1939 - group started by Earl T in Chicago/Evanston. The first meeting held outside the Chicago Chapter was located in Sterling, Illinois, on a March Wednesday night in 1943 at the home of Ken S.

San Francisco November 1939 - (from correspondence & no other info provided)

Rockland State Hospital Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution, Rockland State Hospital, NY.

Los Angeles Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting Los Angeles Kaye M.'s house

Detroit & Youngstown 1939 - Meetings being held in Detroit. Archie T. & nonalcoholic friend Sarah Klein helped start; expanded into Youngstown.

St. Louis 1939 - Father Ed Dowling responsible founding A.A. St. Louis

Greenwich Connecticut 1939 - Marty M pioneered group at Blythwood Sanitarium

Philadelphia Feb 1940 - Jimmy B. moved there & started group

Houston April 1, 1940 - started by Larry J. of Houston, who wrote "The Texas Prayer". He is also said to have written the "Texas Preamble". Additionally, he wrote a series of articles for a Houston Paper which were collected and reprinted as the first AA pamphlet/booklet distributed by the New York office.

Little Rock April 19, 1940 - Little Rock, Arkansas group was formed. First 'mail order' group.

Evansville, Indiana April or May 1940 - met in J[ames] D. H.'s home, 420 South Denby Street. (from correspondence)

Richmond, Va June 6, 1940 - AA group founded in Richmond, Virginia.

Baltimore June 13, 1940 - Jimmy B helped Jim R start group in Baltimore.

Indianapolis October 28, 1940 - Doherty S credited with starting AA in Indianapolis.

Ashtabula, Ohio Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer articles.

Boston 1940 - Paddy K. founded A.A. Boston

High Watch Farm 1940 - 1st A.A. oriented drying facility 'High Watch Farm' in Kent, Connecticut.

_________________ Added Information _________________

In an October 1, 1940 report to the Trustees, Bill W. estimated the A.A. membership as follows:

Akron, Ohio 200

Jackson, Mich. 15

Baltimore, Md. 12

Little Rock, Ark. 27

Camden, NJ. 5

Los Angeles, Cal. 100

Chicago, Ill. 100

New York City 150

Cleveland, Ohio 450

Philadelphia, Pa 75

Coldwater, Mich. 8

Richmond, Va. 20

Dayton, Ohio 6

San Francisco, Cal. 15

Detroit, Mich. 30

Toledo, Ohio 6

Evansville, Ind. 24

Washington DC 100

Greenwich, Conn. 25

Waunakee, Wis. 20

Houston, Texas 30

Youngstown, Ohio 15

22 Cities 1433 Total

===========================================================================






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2294|2276|2005-03-17 14:50:36|Ernest Kurtz|Re: Allergy theory|
Please. may I try to clear up this confusion. Not-God was first
published in 1979. Sometime around 1985, in an effort to pre-empt Nan
Robertson's coming book on AA, Hazelden arranged with another publisher
to put out a somewhat abridged version under the title "AA: The Story."
It never did well, deservedly.

In 1991, Hazelden re-issued Not-God under its original title and with
all the original material (including the infamous notes) plus an
"appendix" taking the story from Bill W's death in 1971 to the
anniversary of 1985. That edition, in paperback and with a dark blue
cover, is still in print. In my experience, it seems easier to purchase
from Amazon than from Hazelden. Search under the title -- Not-God -- or
under my name.

Thanks.

Ernest Kurtz


MarionORedstone@aol.com wrote:

>
> Not God is now published under the name "The Story"
>
> Marion O. Redstone, Atty.
> Indianapolis, Indiana
>
| 2295|2273|2005-03-17 14:51:56|Tom Hickcox|Re: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?|
To complement the information Arthur posted on 3/14/05, this is from a
footnote, #2, on page 206 of the book Pass It On:

In later years, some A.A. members referred to this procedure as the six
steps of the Oxford Group. Rev. T. Willard Hunter, who spent 18 years in
full-time staff positions for the Oxford Group and M.R.A., said, "I never
once saw or heard anything like the Six Tenets. It would be impossible to
find them in any Oxford Group - M.R.A. literature. I think they must have
been written by someone else under some form of misapprehension."

We may be seeing an example of the fact that oral history passed down over
the years is often inaccurate if not wrong.

Tommy in Baton Rouge
| 2296|2296|2005-03-17 14:52:11|mojo@halfaworldaway.org|More info on Helen Wynn?|
Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the
best sources for more info? Thanks!
| 2297|2297|2005-03-17 15:05:33|saturntad|Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism"|
I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are
referred to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."

1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty". Who was this man?
2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who
was this man?
3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...". Who was this
man?

Thank you!
| 2298|2296|2005-03-17 15:08:28|David Grant|Re: More info on Helen Wynn?|
There is quite a bit of content about Helen in "Bill W. by Francis
Hartigan."

Cheers,

David G.




----- Original Message -----
From: <mojo@halfaworldaway.org>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 5:13 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] More info on Helen Wynn?


>
>
>
> Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the
> best sources for more info? Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2299|2299|2005-03-17 15:08:37|Robert Stonebraker|National Meeting Directories|
Dear AA history Lovers Group,

While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when
the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether
they are on display at the GSO Archives office.

Information would be appreciated � thanks in advance.

Bob S.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2300|2299|2005-03-17 16:06:15|Jim Blair|Re: National Meeting Directories|
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] National Meeting Directories

While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when
the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether
they are on display at the GSO Archives office.

First appeared as "List of AA Groups as of February 1946."

It included one group in the Canal Zone, Mexico (1), Australia (1), Canada
(4), England (1).
| 2301|2297|2005-03-17 20:20:25|Jim Blair|Re: Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism"|
I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are referred
to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."

1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty." Who was this man?

This story was adapted from the chapter "First Steps" in the book Common
Sense of Drinking by Richard Peabody.

2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who was this
man?

Ralph Furlong, "Another Prodigal Story" (1st Edition)

3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...." Who was this man?

Harry Brick, "A Different Slant" (1st Edition) He sued the Alcoholic
Foundation for money loaned to print the Big Book.

Lee C. of CA, produced a document titled "Between the Lines" which explains
the people and places mentioned in the first 164 pages of the BB and Dr.
Bob's story.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MODERATOR: Let me add to Jim's message some additional info from two other people who wrote in at the same time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:21pm

Lester adds that Ralph F. was from Springfield, Mass., and Harry B. was from New York.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From: "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:18pm

Diz adds that Peabody's book did not identify the "man of thirty" in that story.

Harry B. (whose story was "A Different Slant") later got drunk.
| 2302|812|2005-03-18 17:47:33|Ron Sessions|Re: The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous|
Hello all -

My first chance to post in this group – I want to thank all of you
for so much effort and time – great information here - very helpful!

I know this is a little late – but I just joined this group recently
and ran across a post I wanted to reply to while searching the
archives for "Between the Lines".

(All page numbers refer to `Alcoholics Anonymous' 3rd Edition)

Here is how I see what is stated on pages 158-159 regarding the `A
year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.'
statement:

OK, You have Bill W. and Dr. Bob – they 12th step Bill D. – then
these three 12th step the devil may care chap (Ernie G. who later
married Bob's daughter Sue). That makes four. After Ernie sobers up,
Bill W. returns home, leaving three in Akron.

I believe the `three' mentioned on page 159 are Dr. Bob, Bill D. and
Ernie - they succeeded with seven more in the next year and six
months. The following pages (159, 160 and 161) speak exclusively of
Akron and its environs. At the bottom of page 161 New York is finally
mentioned (eastern cities). So the seven in the first year and a half
only speaks of Akron area folks – not New York area.

At least that is how I read it.

Also – I would like to get of copy of the document titled "Between
the Lines" by Lee C. of CA mentioned by Jim Blair in message # 2301
if possible.

Thanks – Ron Sessions

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lee Carroll"
wrote:
> Keith M. asked about the first twelve into AA. During my research
on
> the People Places and Things Mentioned in the First 164 pages of the
> Book, I have come up with the following:
>
> re; Page159 Who were the "seven more?"
>
> Akron
> Ernie Galbraith 9/35 ("The Seven Month Slip")
> Phil S. 9/35 - First AA court case
> Tom Lucas,11/35 or 12/37, ("My Wife and I")
> Walter Bray, 2/36, ("The Backslider")
> Joe Doppler, 4/36, ("The European Drinker")
> Paul Stanley, 7/36, (Truth Freed Me")
>
> NY
> Fitz Mayo, 10/35, ("Our Southern Friend")
> Hank Parkhurst, 11/35, ("The Unbeliever")
> William Ruddell, 11/35 or 1/37 ("A Business Man's Recovery")
> Myron Williams, 4/36, ("Hindsight")
>
> Granted, this is more than "seven more," but that is because some
of
> these folks drank again and came back (two dates next to their
name)
> Most, as you can see, were stories in the First Edition.
>
> I have a list of the first 100 (more or less). I'll see if I can
find
> it.
>
> Lee
>
>
> >>> dangerousa@y... 02/03/03 05:47PM >>>
> Hello, AA History Lovers, I am trying to find information on who
the
> first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous were and the order in
> which they joined? The source of information used to determine this
> is also helpful.
>
> Thank you,
> Keith M.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
| 2303|2303|2005-03-18 18:01:27|cdknapp@pacbell.net|Pink Seven|
Hello group,
I was asked a question that I could not answer or find on the
Internet. I was wondering if any of you can help. In "Physician,
Heal Thyself!" Earle uses a term "know as Pink Seven" on page 304 in
the 4th Ed. Can any one give me a definition of this term? Thanking
you in advance.
Charles from California
| 2304|2299|2005-03-18 18:08:44|ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net|Re: National Meeting Directories|
hello Group,

From my research and notes, the first National Directories were booklet-published in the spring of 1940 by the Alcoholic Foundation office. The "LISTING OF A.A. GROUPS WITH THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION" directories were updated every six months. The printed documents reported group membership numbers, locations, meeting nights, and contact addresses for the groups (when available as P.O. Boxes, otherwise the names and addresses of Group Secretaries). Later directories published contribution amounts, telephone numbers (beginning in 1947), and discontinued the semi-annual booklet printing sometime in the 1950s.

The AA Archives at GSO will not provide photocopies, due to current confidentiality policies. Judit Olah, Archivist, has a staff of three who reply to requests on the history of specific groups, and I'm sure that information on the original meetings (or any group's meetings) in any given city would be provided on request. The first place the research staff would go is the printed semi-annual "Listing" that was sorted alphabetically by State and cities in that State. Today, no one may get the early contact names but would receive details of the group's earliest recorded information.

Write: The AA Archives,General Service Office, 475 Riverside Drive, 11th Floor, New York, NY 10115

of note: ACROSS THE UNITED STATES IN 1940: 59 active groups, 1,400 members (courtesy of the AA Archives and used with permission).

Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2305|2305|2005-03-18 18:37:03|ArtSheehan|FW: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?|
The questions about the tenets of the Oxford Group prompts me to comment on the important influence religion had on early AA. When Bill wrote “Let’s get friendly with our friends” it is worth noting that the “friends” are physicians and the clergy. In AA's early decades, men and woman of religion were celebrated for their contributions to AA. “AA Comes of Age” is filled with tribute to them.

Prior to taking on the name “Oxford Group” the society was called “The First Century Christian Fellowship.” The Oxford Group (OG) is not fairly summed up in a few lines of “tenets” any more so than the use of the Ten Commandments would aptly describe the substance of Judaism.

The OG was an evangelical movement that, although neutral in its advocating a specific religious denomination, regarded its code or system of beliefs to be firmly rooted in Christian Scripture. Dr Bob, his wife Anne, Frank Buchman, Rev Sam Shoemaker, Rowland Hazard, Jim Newton, Shep Cornell, Henrietta Seiberling, Rev Walter Tunks, Norman Shepherd, Russell Firestone and T Henry & Clarace Williams were most of the key names that carried the OG influence to the two fledgling AA groups (in Akron and NY) that initially met under the auspices of the OG.

A July 1945 Grapevine article reported that in June 1945, Cleveland, OH hosted a 2-day “Big Meeting” at the Cleveland Music Hall and Carter Hotel to celebrate AA’s 10th anniversary. Estimated attendance was 2,500. At the event Dr Bob publicly commented, and is cited in the Grapevine, that over the last 10 years he averaged at least an hour’s reading per day and “always returned to the simple teachings in The Sermon on the Mount, the Book of James and the 13th chapter of First Corinthians in the Bible for his fundamentals.”

Cheers, Arthur

Sources: Dick B, "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous" (http://www.dickb.com/Oxford.shtml) and "Alcoholics Anonymous and Its Real Oxford Group Connection" (http://www.aabibliography.com/article21.html).
| 2306|2306|2005-03-18 18:37:53|Glenn Chesnut|I have talked with Nancy O.|
Nancy O., the founder and moderator of the AAHistoryLovers, did in fact break her leg and her hip in the fall she took on Friday, March 11. Her heart is too weak for them to operate on her and set the broken bones properly. Her heart stopped beating on Sunday, and they thought they had lost her, but then it started beating again.

She has now been moved to a nursing home in Roanoke, Virginia, only five blocks away from her sister and her nephew and niece, who are watching over her.

I talked with Nancy briefly at 8 p.m. this evening (Friday, March 18). She was able to talk clearly, but she is in a lot of pain, and began crying at one point from the pain. No one can blame her for that.

I feel totally helpless in this situation myself. All we can do is pray for her.

Either Lori W. in Fredericksburg, Virginia, or I will keep the members of this group posted on what is happening, as we get information.

G.C.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2307|812|2005-03-18 18:38:33|Diz Titcher|Re: The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous|
This is the first twelve I have:
Bill Wilson
Dr. Bob Smith
Eddie Reilly
Dr. McK.
Bill Dotson
Ernie Galbraith
Hank Parkhurst
Phil Smith
Wes Wymans
Fitz Mayo
Freddie B. NY
Brooke B. NY
Some of these were failures.

Diz Titcher
| 2308|2254|2005-03-19 18:54:38|Roger Wheatley|Re: AA geographical membership rates|
Robin,
A member in the UK attempting to show the growth over here needs improvement attempted to use some logic, census data, and determined that the US has sobered up 10% of those who need it and the UK only 1%. Here is how that is determined for sake of discussion, I do not believe it will hold up under scientific scrutiny.

Membership of AA in UK approx. 22,000 according to GSO's 2002 survey.
Population in UK approx. 45 million according to census beaureau.
About 7% of population has drinking problem according to some agency.
Therefore, approximately 0.7% of those who need it are recovering in AA.

Membership in AA in USA approx 1 million.
USA is 5 times more populous than the UK.
Therefore they have 10x the membership per alcoholic (Assumpton alcoholism is found at the same rate in both countries).


Roger W.

gentle_bear <gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Hi Folks,

My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of
AA membership was in various countries around the world.

I was able to calculate the following.

These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a
country.

Australia - 0.150%
USA - 0.402%
Canada - 0.297%
New Zealand - 0.095%

Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.

The New Zealand membership census is on their website.

The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its
based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.

Can anyone add to these figures?

The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?

In Fellowship

Robin F.

Brisbane

Australia.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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| 2309|2309|2005-03-19 19:57:48|Jim Blair|Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley|
THE FAMOUS QUOTE ATTRIBUTED TO HERBERT SPENCER

It may really have come originally from William Paley (1743-1805)

-------------------------------------------

Jim Blair: Scholarship on Herbert Spencer

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm#Anchor-Rumor-53375

-------------------------------------------

At about the same time "anonaholic" <anonaholic@yahoo.com> wrote in and reported discovering the same article on the internet:

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/

-------------------------------------------

Glenn Chesnut: Jim has found new information on the quotation attributed to Herbert Spencer,

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is contempt prior to examination."

Michael StGeorge argues that it was a modification of a quotation from William Paley (1743-1805), who wrote a book in 1794, entitled " A View of the Evidences of Christianity." In the original version, the lines read:

"The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of rank and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz. contempt prior to examination."

StGeorge's full article:
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation02.htm
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm
| 2310|2310|2005-03-21 13:25:03|ny-aa@att.net|AA Percent of Potential Members|
The question was to compare A.A. penetration around the world.
The rate of substance abuse is not the same in all countries.
To see what percentage of alcoholics are in A.A. in any given
country, you need to know the population and the rate of
alcohol dependence there. For the United States, a reasonable
estimate is that one in ten alcoholics are active A.A. members.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/press/2004/NESARCNews.htm#chart

Here is a 1992 vs 2002 comparison for United States adults.
It uses the DSM IV ("APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
of Mental Disorders") definitions of Alcohol Abuse (drinking
caused trouble = problem drinkers) and Alcohol Dependent
(loss of control = real alcoholics). The distinction is
clearly defined. Note that there was a significant enough
reduction in the percentage of alcohol dependent adults that
the actual number went down in spite of population growth.

Alcohol Abuse (but not Dependent)
1992 3.0% 5.6 Million
2002 4.7% 9.7 Million
Alcohol Dependent
1992 4.4% 8.2 Million
2002 3.8% 7.9 Million
Total Abuse or Dependent
1992 7.4% 13.8 Million
2002 8.5% 17.6 Million

The 2002 A.A. membership in the U.S. was over one million.
If you assume A.A. is for "real alcoholics" then one in eight
are members. If you recognize that some "potential alcoholics"
or "problem drinkers" might join, then A.A. has one in seventeen.
Since most alcohol abusers aren't alcoholic enough to hit bottom
(yet) we could approximate that A.A. in the United States has
one in ten of all potential members.

GSO changed the way membership counts were calculated after 1993.
It would be misleading to attempt a historical comparison of
1992 vs. 2002 A.A. depth of reach without adjusting for that
change.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION SENT IN BY "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sun Mar 20, 2005 0:34am

It�s very difficult to obtain reasonably accurate AA membership counts over any broad geographical area. Oddly, sometimes it�s just as difficult to get an accurate membership count in a particular group.

For a table showing US and International group and membership counts from 1935 to 2002, please check Appendix 2 contained in the PDF file at the link below. The table in Appendix 2 is from various written materials (which are identified). Data from 1951 on are from annual final Conference reports.

http://www.silkworth.net/timelines/AA_Timeline_2004-04-01_Public04.pdf

Group and membership count estimates must be interpreted very carefully, very skeptically and in proper context. Group counts include only those groups asking GSO to be listed (thousands do not). Groups may or may not report membership estimates or update estimates over time. Members can be counted in multiple group estimates and the composition of the numbers has changed at various times from �reported� to �estimated.�

AA is in about 150 countries (with 51 GSOs overseas). Each year, the US/Canada GSO attempts to contact overseas GSOs and groups requesting to be listed in their records. Where current data are lacking, earlier year�s figures are used. An estimate of membership of non-reporting groups is arrived at by taking an average of reporting groups.

From the beginning, the numbers are at best, �fuzzy� and do need to be interpreted prudently to avoid drawing erroneous conclusions. The table data are not an accurate measure of a specific year�s increase or decrease. However, trends over the decades are indicative (but not exact) of AA groups reaching more places and more AA members achieving recovery.

The last (2004) estimate of AA membership showed: the US with 1,187,000 members, Canada with 94,000 members, US and Canadian correction facilities with 66,000 members and 716,453 members outside the US and Canada.
Various US demographic statistics can be found on the web site of the US National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism at:

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/databases/qf.htm#abdep
| 2311|2309|2005-03-21 13:27:03|Mel Barger|Re: Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley|
Dear Friends,
I'm impressed by the sleuthing that enabled Jim Blair to trace this
alleged Spencer quote to William Paley. Paley is famous for "intelligent
design"---i.e., insisting that if you found a watch you must believe that
there is a watchmaker, so the "intelligent design" in the world suggests
that there must be an "intelligent designer" behind it all. This view is
under attack by people such as Richard Dawkins, who argue that no designer
is necessary to explain life.
My own proof of "intelligent design" is in the wonderful change I found
when I began to believe in, and consciously contacting, a Higher Power who
is living and working in our lives.
Mel Barger
| 2312|2303|2005-03-21 13:29:19|Jim S.|Re: Pink Seven|
Cloud Nine, Pink Cloud, Seventh Heaven----Take your pick.
| 2313|2297|2005-03-23 19:10:48|daly_thomasj|The people in the Big Book stories|
The West Baltimore Group of Alcoholics Anonymous has a section on its website called Biographies of the Authors. This is one of the first places one ought to check to find out more about who the people were who appear in the stories at the end of the Big Book.

This website says that the short biographies of the various authors of the stories in the back of the book Alcoholics Anonymous have been graciously supplied by Nancy O., the moderator of the AA History Lovers list and her friends.

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm
| 2314|2314|2005-03-24 20:42:14|Martha Brummett|Death of former Trustee Don P. (Aurora CO)|
Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who helped carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20. He touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.

Martha B.
Denver CO
| 2315|2315|2005-03-26 01:00:43|Glenn Chesnut|Nancy's gone home to God|
I'm so sorry to have to deliver this news, but our founder and moderator Nancy Olson died at 3:22 p.m. on Friday afternoon, March 25th.

I was told that Nancy wanted to be cremated with no funeral service, so I am not sure what is happening at this point.

We have prepared a Memorial for her, with a brief account of her life and all the good things she did for alcoholics over the years, and some photographs from various points in her life. I think everyone in the group will want to look at it. We can't attach or include photos in the AAHistoryLovers messages, so we have posted the memorial at this website:

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html

Glenn Chesnut

Eternal rest grant unto her, O Lord,
and let perpetual light shine upon her.
May the angels receive her in paradise,
at her coming may the martyrs receive her,
and bring her into the holy city Jerusalem.
There may choirs of angels receive her,
and with Lazarus who once was poor,
may she have eternal rest. Amen.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2316|2316|2005-03-28 15:24:19|Glenn Chesnut|Memorial Book for Nancy O.|
MEMORIAL BOOK FOR NANCY O.

I know that a lot of people would like to express their appreciation for Nancy and what she did for us in the fellowship, and that there are people who would like to share some of their memories of her with the rest of us.

Doug B. at the AAHistory website ( http://www.aahistory.com/ ) has kindly offered to let us use his site for a Memorial Book for Nancy. The Memorial Book is at

http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html

and has a place to write your message and post it.

Doug already has some very beautiful Memorial Books for a number of warmly remembered people, including Dr. Paul (acceptance is the answer), Esther Coleman, Searcy W., and Sue Smith Windows.

And I suppose that since Nancy's last contributions to the fellowship were through this AA History Lovers web group which literally spans the whole globe by electronic means, and touches every continent, a kind of "website memorial service" of this sort would be the only way that all of us in the AAHistoryLovers could ever get together in one place.

Glenn C.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2317|2317|2005-03-28 15:45:57|Martha Brummett|Don P. Memorial Service|
> Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who helped carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20. He touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.

The memorial service will be held Monday, April 11, at 2:00 p.m. at the Mile High Church of Religious Science, 9077 W. Alameda Ave., Lakewood, Colorado.

Cards, etc., to:

Ms. Jackie Pritts, 1009 S. Lewiston Way, Aurora CO 80017.




Regards,
Martha B.
Denver CO
| 2318|2318|2005-03-31 05:09:09|Don Kozak|Choose conception|
Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own
conception of GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular part of Oxford Group teaching?
TIA Don...TGCHAHO...
| 2319|2319|2005-03-31 05:16:35|Jon Markle|Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder |
Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?

Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh

-----Original Message-----

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1, 640786.story

Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics
By Elaine Woo
Times Staff Writer

March 30, 2005

Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering alcoholism and drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20 at her Long Beach home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung cancer, said her partner, Vicki Lewis.

Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its first director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first such facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.

A recovered alcoholic herself, Weathers understood that society treated drunk women more harshly than their male counterparts. Lesbian alcoholics, she believed, had three strikes against them - female, gay and alcoholic - that resulted in their drinking remaining hidden longer. Lesbians, like gay men, are believed to have higher rates of alcoholism than the general population, but they were often shunned by traditional recovery programs, which were dominated by men and sometimes compounded the stigma that gay women felt by trying to convert them to heterosexuality.

The Alcoholism Center for Women, which began as a program at what is now the Gay and Lesbian Community Services Center in Hollywood, encouraged women to accept themselves and fostered a feminist awareness.

In addition to offering traditional crisis intervention, counseling and weekly Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, it organized dances, potluck suppers and other recreational activities as alternatives to gay bars.

"Women were fighting to be heard, and it was difficult during those times," recalled Nora Steel, a longtime counselor at the center who worked with Weathers. "Brenda forged ahead and said, 'We have issues and needs. We're out there drinking and dying and no one cares, and I want do something.' She
was courageous."

Born in Smithfield, Texas, the daughter of a Baptist preacher had been expelled from Texas Women's University in 1957 after college officials learned of her sexual orientation. When the father of her girlfriend discovered their relationship, he beat both girls with a rubber hose.

Weathers moved to California in the 1960s. She earned a bachelor's degree in anthropology from Cal State Long Beach, then became a social worker for Los Angeles County. She eventually turned to alcohol in an attempt to hold together her dual identities as a closeted lesbian and straight professional, but her drinking got out of hand and she quit to avoid being fired.

She opened a second-hand store in Los Angeles called the Junk Lady, where she would cloister herself after hours and get drunk on jug wine.

"I'd wish and wish someone would call me, and no one did," she told The Times in a 1975 interview. "I would be filled with self-loathing. I'd hit myself on the head, throw myself against the wall, screaming, 'I want out of this.' "

She eventually became sober through a self-help program and began working at the Gay and Lesbian Center, where she helped write a proposal for a $300,000 federal grant to start an alcoholism recovery program for women. The proposal was funded and evolved into the Alcoholism Center for Women, with a 13-bed recovery house and bustling outpatient program. It observed its 30th anniversary last year at a celebration honoring Weathers.

After leaving the center in 1977, Weathers moved to San Francisco, where she ran an alcohol and drug recovery center for the Whitman-Radclyffe Foundation. In the early 1980s, she directed the Gay and Lesbian Chemical Dependency Program in Seattle, where she met Lewis, who became her longtime partner.

Weathers is also survived by a sister, Carolyn Weathers of Long Beach.
| 2320|2318|2005-04-06 09:35:18|Colston|Re: Choose conception|
"It is so with the decision about Christ. We surrender as much of
ourselves as we can to as much of Christ as we understand." p71 How
to Become A Christian - Samuel M. Shoemaker... 1953, Harper & Row.

On Mar 30, 2005 7:03 PM, Don Kozak <d_kozak@hotmail.com> wrote:
Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular part of Oxford Group teaching?
| 2321|2321|2005-04-06 09:41:17|Jduplain@aol.com|Re: Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder|
Hi Jon:

I was very sad to hear of the loss of my friend Brenda Weathers. When I was Director, Office of Women, National Council on Alcoholism, (1975-78) Brenda was my contact for the gay community.

Jan Du Plain
Du Plain Enterprises, Inc.
4201 Cathedral Avenue, NW Suite 1011W
Washington, DC 20016
Tel: 202-244-3338 Fax: 202-244-4539 Toll: 1-866-DUPLAIN
jan@duplain.com
www.duplain.com

-----Original Message-----
Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?
Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1, 640786.story

Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics
By Elaine Woo, Times Staff Writer
March 30, 2005

Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering
alcoholism and drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20 at her Long Beach home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung cancer, said her partner, Vicki Lewis.

Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its first director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first such facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.
| 2322|2318|2005-04-06 09:54:39|Bill Lash|Re: Choose conception|
The Oxford Group expression that I have heard about was, "Bring as much of yourself as you understand to as much of God as you understand." I believe that probably out of frustration (you can tell in the Big Book that Ebby went back & forth for a while with Bill W. about the God thing), Ebby finally said to Bill, "Listen, you don't need to believe what I believe, you can choose your own conception of this Power."

Just Love, Barefoot Bill

We received similar messages from "John" <burcjo@yahoo.com> who linked it to the Rev. Sam Shoemaker.

Also from Karen <honey_dot_com@yahoo.com> who referred to the frustration that Ebby must have been feeling by that point as an important part of the context of the statement.

-----Original Message----- From: Don Kozak d_kozak@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:03 PM

Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular part of Oxford Group teaching
| 2323|2318|2005-04-06 09:55:57|TBaerMojo@aol.com|Re: Choose conception|
On the source of the idea that we should choose our own conception of God:

Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship
http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

There may be a clue here from the Emmanuel Movement in Boston and its
influence on Rowland H.

Tim B
| 2324|2324|2005-04-06 10:01:50|Mark Morse|Wombley's clapboard factory|
I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12 and 12.

I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this
question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison
wasn't able to find the information.

Thanks!

Mark M.
Eau Claire, WI

******************
>>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>
03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>
REPLY from RLL:

RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion

I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion
Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I emailed the Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting
information, but never received a response.

Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East
Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.
RLL/jo

M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian
Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library
Madison, WI 53716

Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:

Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county. (Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)

And a reference in the AA History Lovers:

From: Jim Blair Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion

David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory
explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event, or just a figure of speech?"

I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East
Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be seen.
| 2325|2325|2005-04-06 11:34:06|Audrey Borden|Boston AA Circa 1949|
Greetings AA History Lovers,

I'm hoping someone here might help me decipher some references to AA in
Boston, made by an AA speaker on a tape I have.

The speaker is describing some of his experiences in Boston AA in 1949. He
mentions talking with some other AA members at a placy on Myrtle Street
behind the State House. I am trying to figure out what this place was and
what connection it might have had to AA in Boston at that time. An Internet
search this morning turned up an AA meeting that meets at 19 Myrtle Street
today, in a place called Beacon Chambers, but Beacon Chambers doesn't
suggest anything to me.

The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost
house," words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no
churches at (or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a
church-sponsored half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help
might have lived or gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?

And finally, the speaker also mentions that he'd heard Bill Wilson speak "in
a brown bagger lunch. The office workers used to run in, chomp on their
sandwiches and listed intently to what sobriety was all about."

Is he refering to an AA group called the "Brown Baggers?" What office
workers might he mean, people who worked in this place on Myrtle Street?
Government workers at the State House? I have no clue!

As I know very little about Boston geography or AA development in Boston any
help you could give me would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Audrey Borden
Sober in San Francisco
| 2326|2325|2005-04-10 21:52:32|Cindy Miller|Re: Boston AA Circa 1949|
A "father, son, and holy ghost" house isn't a church--rather, a tiny
3-floor row house consisting of one room on each floor....

On Monday, April 4, 2005, at 05:37 PM, Audrey Borden wrote:

The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost house," words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no churches at (or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a church-sponsored half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help might have lived or gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?
| 2327|2327|2005-04-10 22:08:25|oicuradry12|who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?|
To all grateful historians abroad:
My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be forever grateful!
| 2328|2328|2005-04-10 22:12:36|Carl P.|The two patients in the Doctors Opinion|
Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth
edition big book.

Can somebody verify who these patients are ?

1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very
strange sensation. I knew the man by name" ?

2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case
brought in by a physician prominent in New York. The patient had
made his own diagnosis, and deciding his situation hopeless, had
hidden in a deserted barn" ?

Many Thanks
Carl P.
Enfield.UK.
| 2329|2329|2005-04-12 03:09:16|Glenn Chesnut|The Factory Owner & the Convict|
Notice of new book on A.A. history:

Glenn C., The Factory Owner & the Convict, Vol. 1 of Lives and Teachings of the A.A. Old Timers, April 2005, ISBN 0-595-34872-6, xii + 325 pp. Published by the Hindsfoot Foundation and iUniverse.

The beginnings of the A.A. center which developed in the St. Joseph river valley and spread its influence outward through many parts of Indiana and Michigan during the 1940's. Includes material on an important early A.A. prison group and on early black A.A. groups along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend axis which runs along the southern coast of Lake Michigan.

For more information see:

http://hindsfoot.org/

http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2330|2330|2005-04-12 03:12:17|Aloke Dutt|AA movies|
I am collecting commercial films like

>The Lost Weekend,
>When A man Loves a Woman &
>The Days Of Wine & Roses.
where alcoholism & recovery in AA are so wonderfully depicted.

Are there any other such movies also ?

Thanks for your help.
Aloke
in India




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2331|2324|2005-04-12 03:14:40|Charlie Bishop Jr.|Re: Wombley's clapboard factory|
Dear all: The following is unsubstantiated hearsay history...

I recall seeing a modern art painting and a commentary about it comparing it
to the Explosion of Wombley's

Clapboard (or Roof Shingle) Factory. The multi-colored shingles were
exploding outward in total chaos in the

painting. So maybe my handicapped memory will provoke some real research
in the explosion of the factory.

servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Morse" <markm@eauclaire.lib.wi.us>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:41 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Wombley's clapboard factory


>
>
> I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and
reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something
like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12
and 12.
>
> I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this
> question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison
> wasn't able to find the information.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark M.
> Eau Claire, WI
>
> ******************
> >>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>
> 03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>
> REPLY from RLL:
>
> RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion
>
> I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion
> Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I
emailed the Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting
> information, but never received a response.
>
> Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East
> Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.
> RLL/jo
>
> M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian
> Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library
> Madison, WI 53716
>
> Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:
>
> Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an
Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the
century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as
that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through
Chittenden county. (Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)
>
> And a reference in the AA History Lovers:
>
> From: Jim Blair Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion
>
> David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory
> explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event,
or just a figure of speech?"
>
> I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East
> Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can
still be seen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| 2332|2328|2005-04-16 11:08:04|Jim Blair|Re: The two patients in the Doctors Opinion|
FROM JIM BLAIR:

Can somebody verify who these patients are ?

1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange
sensation. I knew the man by name" ?

Hank Parkhurst

2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in
by a physician prominent in New York.

Fitz Mayo

--------------------------------------------

FROM CHARLES KNAPP: <cdknapp@pacbell.net>

#1 - Hank Parkhurst His Story "The Unbeliever" in First Edition. Hank was a high-pressure kind of guy. Was called a "promoter among promoters." Worked for Standard Oil of New Jersey.

#2 - Fitz Mayo author of "Our Southern Friend".

--------------------------------------------
SAME INFO ALSO FROM:

"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>

"Tommy" <skyrocket1954@yahoo.com>
| 2333|2333|2005-04-16 11:11:01|Dick Spaedt|Dr. Silkworth's two patients|
Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth edition big book.

Patient #1 was Henry (Hank) Parkhurst, Bill's partner in writing the Big Book. He wrote the chapter "To Employers". His story "The Unbeliever" was in the first edition of the Big Book.

Patient #2 was John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo, whose story is "Our Southern Friend" page 208 in 4th Edition. He is also the minister's son referred to on pages 56 & 57 of the text.
| 2334|2327|2005-04-16 11:16:45|Diz Titcher|Re: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?|
The first person that Bill and Bob tried to help was Eddie Reilly(sp), whose wife was a professor at Kent State Univ. They moved in the middle of the night and Eddie showed up with two years of sobriety at Dr. Bob's funeral.

Diz T.
Tallahassee

--------------------------------------
From: "dikilee" <dikilee@yahoo.com>

The first person Bill and Bob worked with was Edgar "Eddie" R. He didn't get sober then, but showed up at Dr. Bob's funeral in 1950 and had been sober for a short time.

Dick Spaedt
| 2335|2327|2005-04-16 11:17:30|Mitchell K.|Re: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?|
There is a letter at the Stepping Stones Archives written by Bill to
Lois on Dr. Bob's letterhead from May 1935 while Bill was staying at
Dr. Bob's home. Bill states that they met with a Dr. McKay who was
a "rake." Given the early date of that letter I would place this person
as the first one they met with. There was no reference to any earlier
people in that letter.


> To all grateful historians abroad:
> My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the
first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but
some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name
was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be forever
grateful!
| 2336|2336|2005-04-16 11:20:12|Charles Knapp|Re: Who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?|
Actually there was a Dr. McKay they tried working with first, according to a letter dated May 1935. This was prior to Dr Bob's last drink. Don't know what ever happen to him. But yes the name of AA # 3 for a short time was Eddie Riley and in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers you can find more about him on pages 77-78; 80-81; 85,93,97,99 and in Pass It On pages 151,152,159

Charles from California
____________________________________

From: "oicuradry12" <oicuradry12@yahoo.com>
Subject: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?

My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history?
| 2337|2327|2005-04-16 22:56:24|ArtSheehan|Re: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?|
Two alcoholics in Akron, OH unsuccessfully preceded Bill Dotson for
the opportunity to be AA #3: the first was a Dr McKay, the second was
Eddie Reilly.



SOURCE REFERENCES:



AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS

AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)

BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)

CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by
Christine Brewer (soft cover)

DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS

EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)

GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)

GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)

LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)

NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

PIO - Pass It On, AAWS

SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)



1935



May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to
enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.
He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He
reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who
then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford
Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a
rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan
Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting
the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,
DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories
(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out
under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Big Book story Dr.
Bob’s Nightmare pg 179 4th ed).



May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age
39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at
Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat
dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,
Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by
Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.
(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB
21)



May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in
vain to sober up a Dr McKay, a “once prominent surgeon” who developed
into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C). Henrietta
Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country Club.
(DBGO 70, 77)



Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill
insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that
he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with
alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at
the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to
the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,
DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture
readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians
Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96
says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the
Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)



Jun 10 (more likely Jun 17) after a multi-day binge on the way to, and
at, an AMA convention in Atlantic City, NJ, a drunken Dr Bob was
picked up at his office nurse’s house in Cuyahoga Falls. Bob went
through a 3-day sobering up period with Bill W’s help. Scheduled for a
surgery at City Hospital, Bob pronounced, “I am going through with
this - I have placed both operation and myself in God’s hands. I’m
going to do what it takes to get sober and stay that way.” Bill gave
Bob his last drink (a beer) and a “goofball” (a barbiturate) to steady
him prior to the surgery. (AACOA vii, 70-71, SI 22, DBGO 72-75, NG 32,
PIO 147-149, AA video Bill’s Own Story)



Jun 11 (more likely Jun 18), Dr Bob suggested that he and Bill W work
with other alcoholics. A local Minister, J C Wright, provided them
with a prospect. They tried in vain, throughout the summer, to sober
up Edgar (Eddie) Reilly (described as an “alcoholic atheist” and “able
to produce a major crisis of some sort about every other day”). Eddie
missed the chance to be AA #3 but he showed up at Dr Bob’s funeral in
1950. He was sober a year and attending the Youngstown, OH group.
(AACOA 72-73, DBGO 77-81, 85, NG 37, 319, PIO 151-152, AAGA 184, CH
5-6)



Jun 28, Bill W, Dr Bob and Eddie R visited Bill Dotson (Big Book story
Alcoholic Anonymous Number Three) at City Hospital. A prominent
attorney in Akron, Bill D had been hospitalized 8 times in 1935
because of his drinking. Bill W and Bob visited Bill D every day. It
took about 5 days before Bill D would say that he could not control
his drinking. He checked out of the hospital on Jul 4 and within a
week, was back in court sober and arguing a case. (AACOA 71-73, AABB
184, BW-RT 219-220, DBGO 81-89, NG 37, 319, PIO 152-154, GB 42, AGAA
202-203) (Note: Bill D was Ohio’s Delegate for Panel 1, the first
General Service Conference in 1951).



Jul (?), Lois went to Akron to join Bill W at the Smith’s house for
two weeks (LR 197, NG 41, BW-FH 85).



Jul, encouraged by T Henry Williams, Ernie Galbraith (AA #4, Big Book
story The Seven Month Slip) contacted Dr Bob and sobered up. He later
married Dr Bob’s adopted daughter Sue in Sep 1941. Ernie could not
stay sober and their marriage was a disaster. Tragically, on Jun 11,
1969, their daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking the life of
her 6-year-old daughter Sandy. Ernie G died two years later to the
day. (AACOA 7, 73, DBGO 92-95, AAGA 68, CH 72-74, PIO 154-155)



Aug 26, Bill W returned to NYC. Meetings were held at his house at 182
Clinton St on Tues. nights. His home also became a halfway house, of
sorts, for drunks. (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51,
AGAA 145)



Nov 19, Ebby T came to live with Bill W and Lois at Clinton St. (LR
197, EBBY 72, NG 42-44)



Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book story The Unbeliever) and
John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book story Our Southern Friend)
sobered up at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to
Bill W. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in
Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO
191 says 1937)



Cheers

Arthur S

_____

From: oicuradry12 [mailto:oicuradry12@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 11:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?




To all grateful historians abroad:
My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the
first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed"
but some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose
name was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be
forever grateful!









_____

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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

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e>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2338|2338|2005-04-16 23:58:02|Glenn Chesnut|List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism|
There were so many messages sent in on this topic, that I thought it was best to gather them together into a single posting. When a number of people all sent in the same movie, I did not always list everyone. -- Glenn C.

------------------------------

Aloke in India started us off with three movies:

"THE LOST WEEKEND"

"WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN"

"DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES"

------------------------------

A GOOD LIST OF MOVIES WITH EXCELLENT COMMENTARIES adds some other movies to the list given below:

From: philip luppy lupp713@yahoo.com Here is a link to a bibliographic essay on motion pictures and AA:

http://www.bks.no/partyend.pdf

------------------------------

"MY NAME IS BILL W."

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com

A must have in any AA film collection is "My Name is Bill W." starring James Woods and James Garner. The story of Bill and the early days in AA. Much Love Disco Dave

From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com

My Name is Bill W., a Hallmark film, starring James Woods as Bill and Jo Beth Williams as his wife. It is the story of Bill's life. It is, in my opinion, the best AA movie made (and I've seen them all).

From: "Diz Titcher" rtitcher@comcast.net How about A Man called Bill. Diz T.

"DRUNKS"

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com

There is also a terrible film from 1997 called "Drunks" which is an example of how AA has become group therapy in many places. Don't see it.

From: Ron Sessions pqrgs@yahoo.com

I don't know about wonderfully depicted, but there is a film that I think does a VERY good job of depicting what AA has become - the movie is called 'Drunks' from mid-1990's staring Richard Lewis, Faye Dunaway and others. It shows the result of the self-help, pick any higher power you want AA that is so common today in a very revealing light.

"CLEAN AND SOBER"

From: Lynda lynda_rivers@yahoo.com

Another great movie that you might want to add to your collection is Clean and Sober, starring Michael Keaton. It was released in 1988 and it's excellent. Have a great day! Lynda

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com "Clean and Sober" is also a classic with Michael Keaton.

From: george cleveland pauguspass@yahoo.com Clean and Sober

"MY NAME IS KATE"

From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com "My Name is Kate"

"28 DAYS"

From: rich northouse rnorthouse@wi.rr.com 28 Days is a good one.

From: "Rob White" rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu

I like Sandra Bullock's movie, "28 days." It's a great story about a woman that goes to rehab.

From: MarionORedstone@aol.com

28 days with Sandra Bullock. Marion O. Redstone, Atty., Indianapolis, Indiana

From: george cleveland pauguspass@yahoo.com 28 Days--not a milestone.

"I'LL CRY TOMORROW"

From: Pam Lanning prlanning@gmail.com

I'll Cry Tomorrow. It's a true story. I just read the book. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048191/plotsummary

Deprived of a normal childhood by her ambitious mother, Katie (Jo Van Fleet), Lillian Roth (Susan Hayward) becomes a star of Broadway and Hollywood before she is twenty. Shortly before her marriage to her childhood sweetheart, David Tredman (Ray Danton), he dies and Lillian takes her first drink of many down the road of becoming an alcoholic. She enters into a short-lived marriage to an immature aviation cadet, Wallie (Don Taylor), followed by a divorce and then marriage to a sadistic brute and abuser Tony Bardeman (Richard Conte). After a failed suicide attempt, Burt McGuire (Eddie Albert)comes to her aid and helps her find the road back to happiness after sixteen years in a nightmare world, not counting the first twenty with her mother.

"SHAKES THE CLOWN"

From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net

One done in 70's and a great comedy about an alcoholic clown, "Shakes the Clown."

"SHATTERED SPIRITS"

From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net

Martin Sheen, Shattered Spirits, 1989. Great Movie!!

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net Shattered Spirits- Charlie Sheen

"ON THE NICKLE"

From: "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@insightbb.com

"On The Nickle" is a thoroughly forgotten film about skid row hi-jinx in Los Angeles. It is directed by Ralph Waite who also plays a part in this 1980 movie. It is a film which I was lucky enough to tape from the "Z Channel" (now defunct) in Los Angeles many years ago. The brainchild of actor Ralph Waite (of Waltons), it was independently made on a very low budget. In it, Waite manages to balance the tragedy of skid-row life with humor and irony, and in spite of an easy, fellini-esque ending, tells a moving story of a man (Donald Moffat) a former alcoholic and skid row dweller, struggling to "put his demons to rest" as he searches the "Nickle" (Fifth Street) for his old pal, C.G., played by Ralph Waite. The movie is bookended by the Tom Waits song, "On The Nickle", presumably written for the movie, and has a score that quotes the song frequently. Maybe the Independent Film Channel will consider running it.

Bob S., from Indiana

"VITAL SIGNS"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Vital Signs - Ed Asner

"LEAVING LAS VEGAS"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Leaving Las Vegas

"UNDER THE INFLUENCE"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Under The Influence -Keanau Reeves, Andy Griffith

"STUART SAVES HIS FAMILY"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Stuart Saves His Family

"THE GREAT SANTINI"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

The Great Santini

"ON THIN ICE"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

On Thin Ice

"LADY SINGS THE BLUES"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Lady Sings the Blues

"SMASH UP"

From: "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net

Try Smash Up, with Susan Hayward, Aloke, which came out about the same time as Lost Weekend.

"LIFE OF THE PARTY"

From: Julie zulie55@yahoo.com

There is a movie coming on encore, April 23, "Life of the Party: The Story of Beatrice," 1982. It has Carol Burnett in it.
| 2339|2339|2005-04-17 00:00:25|Carl P.|Ebby Thacher|
Hi all,

I would like to thank all the people that replied to my last
couple of questions.

I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8, and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to Bill?

Many Thanks
Carl P.
Enfield UK
| 2340|2340|2005-04-17 00:07:38|Jarvis|celebrated American statesman|
Hello
On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American statesman" as having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they refering to, who is the statesman?
Thanks
Jarvis
| 2341|2341|2005-04-17 00:07:53|Bill Lash|Toronto 2005 AA Int'l. Conv. Available Hotel Rooms|
Shortcut to: http://2005internationaltorontoaccommodations.com/
| 2342|2340|2005-04-18 20:28:06|Jim Blair|Re: celebrated American statesman|
Jarvis asked
On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American statesman" as having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they referring to, who is the statesman?

Alfred E. Smith. Four time Governor of New York and unsuccessful first Roman Catholic presidential candidate.
Jim
____________________
MODERATOR: WE WERE ALSO GIVEN A GOOD REFERENCE BY RICK B. FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO KNOW MORE.

Rickydotcom <rickydotcom@yahoo.com>
According to the Anonymous Press Study Edition of the Big Book it is Alfred E. Smith, former governor of New York. See this website for a bio on Smith http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1495.html
Be well, Rick Benchoff, Hagerstown, Maryland
____________________
MODERATOR: AND OTHERS AMONG OUR INTREPID HISTORICAL RESEARCHERS ALSO CAME UP WITH THE NAME ALFRED E. SMITH
Sbickell@aol.com
lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
J N P <jopet34@yahoo.com>
"Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
"Roy V. Tellis" Baldwin, NY <roytellis@yahoo.com>
Thumper (Paula) <dsgrl121501@yahoo.com>
| 2343|2339|2005-04-18 20:34:38|Mel Barger|Re: Ebby Thacher|
Hi Carl,
I doubt that Ebby had any amends to make to Bill, as he hadn't harmed him
in any way. They did take that drunken airplane ride in 1929 but Bill was
as much involved in it as Ebby and no lasting harm resulted from it. The
pilot might have been drunk too and it was a dangerous action, but they got
through it.
As I understand it, Ebby was living in the Calvary Mission and just
happened to drop in on some friends in a Wall Street brokerage office. (Ebby
had worked briefly as a broker in Albany.) The friend (or friends) told him
that Bill was in terrible shape in Brooklyn. Ebby then decided to help
Bill, if he could. So Ebby called Lois and this led to his call to Bill.
As you can read in "Pass It On," Bill even visited the mission where Ebby
was staying and made a fool of himself. Bill finally decided to go back to
Towns Hospital, where he had the transforming experience mentioned in his
personal story.
Mel Barger


----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>
I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8, and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to Bill?
Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK
| 2344|2339|2005-04-18 20:34:52|Arthur Sheehan|Re: Ebby Thacher|
Hi Carl

Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C (see "Pass It On" pg 116 - several other books document this as well). Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too highly of Shep).

Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several times, once even staying for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that while this may not reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time when Bill was at the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events would probably be far more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.

Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that much drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived in NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane ride from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year of high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing each summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).

My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary Mission, was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and Cebra G.

Cheers

Arthur

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl P.cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>
When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8, and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to Bill?
Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK
| 2345|2339|2005-04-25 09:10:31|Mel Barger|Re: Ebby Thacher|
Hi Friends,
I agree with Art's review here re Ebby's contacts with Bill, etc. Bill was, however, a friend of Shep's but Shep didn't think he had had much of a drinking problem and wasn't qualified to serve as an example of recovery! Shep later drank again, but only as the moderate drinker he had been right along. He had been abstaining because that was required by the Oxford Group. Shep still had some money and could take Ebby, Lois, and Bill to dinner. He became a lieutenant colonel during WWII and then was general manager of A.O. Smith Company in Milwaukee. He was retired and living in Earlysville, VA, when I talked with him by phone. Lois also knew Shep well and mentioned that he was a great golfer. Undoubtedly he and Bill had
played together at the Ekwanok club in 1929 when Bill acquired golf fever.
Mel Barger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:46 AM

Hi Carl

Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C see "Pass It On" pg 116 - several other books document this as well).

Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too highly of Shep). Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several times, once even staying for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that while this may not reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time when Bill was at the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events would probably be far more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.

Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that much drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived in NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane ride from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year of high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing each summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).

My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary Mission, was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and Cebra G.

Cheers, Arthur
| 2346|2346|2005-04-25 13:13:51|Glenn Chesnut|The dozens of Oxford Group tenets|
QUESTION ASKED BY: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk> Wed Apr 20, 2005

SUBJECT: Oxford Group Tenets

Please can somebody confirm, did the Oxford Group have five or six tenets ?

Many thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK

------------------------------------------------------

Carl,

The short answer is, neither five nor six, but many dozens of tenets.

It would be useful to look at some of our previous messages on this one to get some of the details on this. See particularly messages 2274 (Robert Stonebraker at rstonebraker212@insightbb.com ), 2286 (Arthur Sheehan at ArtSheehan@msn.com ), 2288 (Ernest Kurtz at kurtzern@umich.edu ), and 2295 ( Tom Hickcox at cometkazie1@cox.net ). There is some really good AA history in these postings.

Let me try to give you a summary though. In the Foreword to the Second Edition of the Big Book (page xvi in the third and fourth editions) we find the following sentence, which Bill W. wrote in 1955, where he was trying to describe what he came to believe back in 1934, some twenty-one years earlier.

"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to others, and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

Let us remember the full historical context here, when we are talking about the end of 1934 and what Bill Wilson believed at that time.

In November 1934, Ebby and Bill had their talk in Bill's kitchen, and Bill says that the "scales ... fell from my eyes" (see page 12 in the Big Book). The reference here was to the Apostle Paul's conversion experience on the road to Damascus, as described in the book of Acts in the New Testament (see Acts 9:18), and this particular phrase would have been instantly recognized by any Bible-reading Christian of that time as a reference to a person's fundamental conversion experience. The saving message which produced this, which was Bill W.'s first conversion experience (see page 12 of the Big Book), was "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" It put him back into contact with his awareness of God-presence at Winchester Cathedral (Big Book pages 1 and 12).

So Bill's first conversion experience was therefore a re-establishment of his awareness of the Holy (see Rudolf Otto, The Idea of the Holy, 1917, English translation 1923, written by the German theologian who was regarded as one of the two most important Protestant theologians of that era). It was a realization that learning to become intuitively aware of the holy and sacred dimension of reality at the feeling level was at the root of real God-consciousness. If you could walk into a church and "feel" the presence of the holy, and then could learn to feel that same intuitive sense of divine presence in other places too, then you could learn how to practice God-consciousness on an everyday basis. God became real only when we could learn to "feel" his presence -- a God who was only an intellectual theory or an ecclesiastical dogma blindly believed in, could not help an alcoholic stop drinking.

But then in December 1934, when Bill was in Towns Hospital, he had another even more dramatic spiritual experience of an extraordinary sort. The majority of AA members, however, never ever have a spiritual experience of that sort, and it is not at all necessary to getting sober and obtaining deep serenity and spirituality (see Appendix Two to the Big Book, on pages 569-570 of the third edition). So it is the first conversion experience which we in AA ought primarily to focus on in developing our own spirituality, not trying to obtain visionary experiences like the one Bill W. had in Towns Hospital, and we are also warned in Appendix Two that learning to fully feel the presence of the sacred dimension of reality and God's presence with us, may only develop slowly over a long period of time.

The reference however to the "sudden spiritual experience" in the Foreword to the Second Edition (pages xi-xvi) sounds like Bill W. is referring to the later one in Towns Hospital instead of the earlier one in his kitchen when he was talking with Ebby.

However, Ebby was still important. Ebby was at this time deeply involved in the Oxford Group (although there was also a connection, via Rowland Hazard, to Courtenay Baylor and the Emmanuel Movement). So in the Foreword to the Second Edition of the Big Book, Bill Wilson tries to summarize what he picked up from the Oxford Group in his first contact with them, at the end of 1934. So this is where the reference to Oxford Group "tenets" comes into the Foreword:

"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to others, and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

By "the tenets of the Oxford Groups," Bill Wilson here simply meant all the many different parts of the Oxford Group teachings. It was just a general reference to everything the OG taught. Bill W. was not making a reference here to some formal list of five or six or seven particular rules. That is, there was no list of five or six particular Oxford Group rules that were called "The Tenets" and were listed in the way in which the Hebrew Bible has Ten Commandments and A.A. has Twelve Steps. There were dozens of Oxford Group beliefs.

So what Bill W. was saying was that the OG had all sorts of "tenets" or beliefs, that is, all sorts of various teachings on all sorts of various topics, but that he rejected many of these, even back in 1935, believing that they were not useful or appropriate for him or other recovering alcoholics. This is important to note -- Bill W. is insisting here in 1955 that he NEVER bought the ENTIRE Oxford Group line, even back at the end of 1934. Alcoholics Anonymous historians can and will argue about that one. But Bill W. was saying that he did find SOME Oxford Group teachings useful for recovering alcoholics, and tosses off a quick sample of five of the kinds of things which he and the AA movement had found to be of continuing usefulness.

It is also important to note though that Bill W. did not actually say here that these were the ONLY five Oxford Group teachings that he was following back at the end of 1934, or that AA people were following in 1935, 36, and 37. In context here, Bill W. was trying to give a very short list of only the most important influences on him back at the end of 1934 when he was first getting sober himself, which means that all he was really saying was that these were five OG teachings that he thought were especially useful back at that time.

Anybody who knows the sorts of teachings and practices which were found in Oxford Group circles c. 1934-1937 can point out many other things which Bill W. and early AA were pulling from the OG back then, and many other OG teachings and practices which are still being used in AA today.

Where some of the additional confusion occurs, is that there are also lists of what we might call an early six step version of what would eventually become the twelve steps. See for example page 292 in the 3rd edition (page 263 in the 4th edition), where it says that in very early Akron A.A., "The six steps were:

1. Complete deflation.

2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.

3. Moral inventory.

4. Confession.

5. Restitution.

6. Continued work with other alcoholics."

The first one, ego deflation, was primarily tied in with psychiatric principles (see especially the writings of Dr. Harry M. Tiebout, one of AA's early friends) and not the Oxford Group per se, and the sixth one is coming from Bill W.'s own personal experience in the period right after he got sober at the end of 1934. But AA people certainly first realized the importance of the other four steps on this early list from their association with the Oxford Group when AA had just begun.

Arthur Sheehan in Message 2286 gives a very thorough list of other early AA versions of a sort of six-step program.

So the basic answer to your question, Carl, would be that the Oxford Group did not have five tenets or six tenets, but dozens of different beliefs and teachings. There was no formal list of five or six which they singled out in particular which corresponded to Bill W.'s list of five items in the Foreword to the Second Edition. There was also no "six step program" in the Oxford Group itself. There was however a kind of informal statement of the AA program sometimes given during the early period which broke it down into six steps roughly. Some of these were connected with Oxford Group beliefs and practices, and others were not.

However, when the Twelve Steps were finally written by Bill W., there were obviously deep influences still coming from the period when AA had been part of the Oxford Group. It is still valuable to go back and look at the Oxford Group if we want to understand how to interpret some of the Twelve Steps. So Step Eleven, for example, which tells us that we are to pray to God for "knowledge of His will for us," derives from the Oxford Group's belief in divine guidance, and so on.

Some of AA's spirituality (for example this belief in praying to receive divine guidance) was fairly much common Protestant evangelical belief which showed up in all sorts of evangelical groups during the early twentieth century, but even in those cases, it was the Oxford Group where Bill W. and Dr. Bob were initially introduced to them, or at least initially had the importance of these ideas pounded into their heads!

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2347|2347|2005-04-25 13:35:24|johnpine@comcast.net|"The Independent Blonde" Dies in Pennsylvania at age 97|
My former sponsor, based in southeastern Pennsylvania, informed me today that Nancy Flynn, the "Independent Blonde" of the second edition of the Big Book, passed away on April 16th in Kennett Square, Pennsylvania, at the age of 97. She was 57 years sober.

Nancy, who was born in Philadelphia and got sober in New York City, was a speaker at the International Conference in Minneapolis in 2000. She was so tiny that she had to stand on a platform to reach the microphone but was so spirited that she received thunderous applause and cheers of "More" from many in the crowd at the Saturday night main meeting in the Metrodome.

Here is a link to the local newspaper obituary:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14371521&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=17786&rfi=6

In unity, love and service,

John Pine
Richmond, VA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2348|2348|2005-04-25 13:35:57|kadgen2001|Pre AA recovery|
Does anyone have any ideas or information about Wilson's thoughts
regarding pre-AA recovery? And why, with the exception of the 1945
Washingtonian article, he left it unaddressed.

Thanks
| 2349|2349|2005-04-25 13:49:29|Richard Foss|Our will and our lives|
In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will" singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after the meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?
| 2350|2350|2005-04-25 13:51:42|saturntad|Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital?|
On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an
alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?

Your help would be appreciated.

Sincerely, Tad
| 2351|2346|2005-04-28 16:34:09|Mel Barger|Re: The dozens of Oxford Group tenets|
Hi Glenn,
Have you taken into account the six steps Bill W. mentions on page 160 of "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age"? The Oxford Groups are listed as a partial source for these.
It's also interesting that several "lists of six" are bouncing around in this early history. Writing in The Atlantic Monthly of August 1934, the noted theologian Henry P. Van Dusen listed six points to cover the Groups' work:
1. Men are sinners
2. Men can be changed.
3. Confession is prerequisite to change.
4. The changed soul has direct access to God.
5. The Age of Miracles has returned.
6. Those who have been changed must change others.
As for The Oxford Group having six specific tenets, Willard Hunter has always said they didn't.
Mel Barger

IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE pp. 160-161 BILL WILSON WRITES:

"I was in this anything-but-spiritual mood on the night when the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous were written. I was sore and tired clear through. I lay in bed at 182 Clinton Street with pencil in hand and with a tablet of scratch paper on my knee. I could not get my mind on the job, much less put my heart in it. But here was one of those things that had to be done. Slowly my mind came into some kind of focus.
Since Ebby's visit to me in the fall of 1934 we had gradually evolved what we called "the word-of-mouth program." Most of the basic ideas had come from the Oxford Groups, William James, and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent procedure which comprised six steps. These were approximately as follows:
1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol.
2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.
3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence.
4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking.
5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or prestige.
6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice these precepts.
This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling newcomers. Several of the Oxford Groups' other ideas and attitudes had been definitely rejected, including any which could involve us in theological controversy. In important matters there was still considerable disagreement between the Eastern and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were still active Oxford Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year before. In Akron and vicinity they still talked about the Oxford Groups' absolutes: absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. This dose was found to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we had abandoned the expressions."
| 2352|2350|2005-04-28 16:46:06|Diz Titcher|Re: Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital?|
QUESTION from "saturntad" <saturntad@aol.com>
On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?

ANSWER from Diz Ticher (and also from Bill Lash):

Bill Wilson
| 2353|2349|2005-04-28 17:24:16|Rob White|Re: Our will and our lives|
its english.
it doesn't make cents.
it just sounds better that weigh.

>>> richfoss@sprintmail.com 4/25/2005 12:28 AM >>>


In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will" singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after the meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?







Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2354|2349|2005-04-28 17:33:58|Alex H.|Re: Our will and our lives|
> In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives
> over.." Why is "will" singular, and "lives" plural? This
> was the question at the "meeting after the meeting," and this
> one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in
> any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes
> in the various editions and printings of the Big Book? Any
> ideas?

Yes.

Assuming that this is not a simple mistake in grammar.... I
suggest that "our will" might refer to our collective will.
While we might collectively act as a single person, we cannot
live as single person so we might say "We dedicate our
collective will and our individual lives to our Higher Power."

Good question.

Alex H.
| 2355|2355|2005-04-29 13:31:33|Glenn Chesnut|"Checking" other people in the Oxford Group|
shaynamedel@yahoo.com wrote in asking about one aspect of the Oxford Group practice of "checking" other members. In OG literature and practice, sometimes that word was used to describe one OG member walking up to another OG member and "taking the other person's inventory," as we would put it in AA terminology.

(In my understanding, the word "checking" could also be used to refer to another element in their program, where it was part of the introduction of newcomers into the program, done with the intention of producing "change" in the newcomer, that is, a fundamental alteration of the person's basic attitude towards life, where the person would become willing to make restitution for any wrongs done, and take up a whole new way of life.)

The sense of the word that we are interested in here, however, is illustrated in a story told by J. D. Holmes, the tenth person to get sober in A.A., who eventually left Akron and started the first A.A. group in Indiana. I am quoting here from "How A.A. Came to Indiana," see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html , which in turn is quoting from Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1980), p. 140.

<
"'You interrupt and talk too much. I'm getting a lot of resentment here, and I don't like it, and I'm afraid I'll get drunk over it.'

"She laughed and said something. Then we sat down and had a very pleasant visit. And I lost all resentment.">>

With a group of alcoholics, as opposed to polite, well-behaved normal OG members, this sort of thing would obviously start wild, angry shouting matches on many occasions, and maybe even worse. So in the A.A. program, this practice of criticizing other people's behavior to their face in this kind of way was eventually called "taking someone else's inventory," and strongly discouraged.

The question which shaynamedel@yahoo.com raises is, can anyone tell us when checking other people like this first began to be rejected as an A.A. practice? And can anyone tell us if there are places in the early A.A. literature talking about the break with the OG and discussing this particular issue?

Also, it would be useful if some of our real OG experts could tell us more about "checking" in the Oxford Group, including the way it was practiced on newcomers when they first came in, in order to produce people who had been "changed."

Moderator









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2356|2356|2005-04-29 14:10:57|Julie|13th stepping|
Where did the term "13th stepping" come from? When did AA people first start using this phrase to refer to men AA members hitting on new women in the program (and vice versa), pretending that they were going to "help" the newcomer understand the program?
| 2357|2357|2005-04-29 14:12:15|Carl P.|The man who committed suicide in Bill's story|
Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Mnay Thanks
Carl P
Enfield UK
| 2358|2358|2005-04-29 14:20:59|erstwhile_erratic_aa|ICYPAA archives|
I was recently elected as the archivist for ICYPAA (International
Conference of Young People in AA). I am hoping to make contact with
some people that have been involved in past years. The 50th ICYPAA is
two years away and I'd like to put together a presentation of archives
for that convention. Interviewing any of the people intimately
involved would be deeply appreciated. I was hopeful some of you
history buffs could help me.

You can email me directly or from www.icypaa.org

Thanks in advance,

Tom Hoban
ICYPAA archivist
| 2359|2357|2005-05-02 11:23:16|lester gother|Re: The man who committed suicide in Bill's story|
Hi Carl, The man in Bill's story is Bill C. a Canadian attorney. Bill and Lois were away at Fitz Mayo's in Maryland. It's reported that Bill put his head in the oven. Seems that it was quite a bitter end!

Love and Service
Lester Gother

------------------------------

"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>

His name was Bill C. and the year was 1936. Bill and Lois were off to
Vermont for a visit and Bill C. was house sitting. He hocked all of their clothing for booze and when the booze was gone he stuck his head in an oven, turned on the gas.

Diz T.

------------------------------
Original Message From Carl P., Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:50 PM

Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Many Thanks, Carl P,Enfield UK











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| 2360|2357|2005-05-02 11:24:05|ArtSheehan|Re: The man who committed suicide in Bill's story|
Hi Carl
SOURCE REFERENCES:
AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)
GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)
GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
When Bill W returned from Akron, OH in August 1935 he began holding
meetings at his house at 182 Clinton St on Tuesday nights. His home
also became a halfway house, of sorts, for drunks. Ebby T moved in
that November (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51, AGAA
145).
The suicide occurred two years later in October 1937. The prior April,
Ebby T got drunk after two years and seven months sobriety. (LR 197,
EBBY 77, BW-FH 63, PIO 177) In august, Bill and Lois stopped attending
Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs separated from the OG. (LR 197,
AACOA vii, 74-76)
Alcoholic residents at 182 Clinton St were Ebby T, Oscar V, Russell R,
Bill C and Florence R (whose Big Book story is A Feminine Victory). In
October 1937, Bill C, a young Canadian (and former attorney who sold
Bill W’s and Lois’ clothes to get liquor) committed suicide in the
house while Bill and Lois were away visiting Fitz M (PIO 165 says
summer of 1936). Florence R, the first woman at Clinton St, later went
to Washington, DC to help Fitz M. She started drinking again in 1939
and later died destitute in 1941. (AACOA 19, AABB 16, BW-RT 237-239,
LR 107)
Cheers
Arthur
_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl P.
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:51 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The man who committed suicide in Bill's
story

Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who
committed suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Mnay Thanks
Carl P
Enfield UK











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| 2361|2355|2005-05-02 11:25:03|ArtSheehan|"Checking" other people in the Oxford Group|
To add to Glenn’s commentary, one of the key OG practices was to
“check guidance.” From what I’ve been able to glean from various
readings, the most noble and spiritual context of “check guidance”
would be equivalent to AA’s 11th Step - that is to seek the knowledge
of God’s will in every aspect of life.
It might also include more than one person in the process and occur in
OG meetings. Henrietta Sieberling reputedly used this approach on Dr
Bob to get him to start admitting his alcohol problem. In the
illustration cited by Glenn, it could also involve the principles of
taking a moral inventory and honestly discussing it with someone else
(Steps 4 thru 10). While some may brand the example as “taking someone
else’s inventory” it really doesn’t depart that much from the type of
discussion that goes on between a member and his/her sponsor or
trusted AA friend.
The following is a rather lengthy timeline to highlight the influence
of the Oxford Group on the founding and practices of AA. The size of
this message will probably result in it being truncated in the AAHL
on-line archives, but the email version should arrive intact. Source
references are noted at the end of the message.
Timeline
1908 - Jul, Frank N D Buchman arrived in England to attend the Keswick
Convention of evangelicals. After hearing a sermon by a woman
evangelist, Jessie Penn-Lewis, he experienced a profound spiritual
surrender and later helped another attendee to go through the same
experience. His experiences became the key to the rest of his life’s
work. Returning to the US, he started his “laboratory years” working
out the principles he would later apply on a global scale. (NG 9, NW
32-45, PIO 130)
1918 - Jan, Frank Buchman met Sam Shoemaker in Peking (now Beijing)
China. Shoemaker had a spiritual conversion experience and became a
devoted member of Buchman’s First Century Christian Fellowship. (NW
29, 47-52, RAA 117-118, AGAA 209)
1921 - Frank Buchman was invited to visit Cambridge, England. His
movement The First Century Christian Fellowship would later become the
Oxford Group and receive wide publicity during the 1920’s and 1930’s.
Core principles consisted of the “four absolutes” (of honesty,
unselfishness, purity and love - believed to be derived from scripture
in the Sermon on the Mount). Additionally the OG advocated the “five
C’s” (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance)
and “five procedures” (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God’s
direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution and 5. Sharing - for
witness and confession). (DBGO 53-55, CH 3) (GB 45 states Buchman
dated the founding and name of the OG when he met with undergraduates
from Christ Church College of Oxford U).
1922 - Frank Buchman resigned his job at the Hartford Theological
Seminary to pursue a wider calling. Over the next few years, he worked
mostly in universities (Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge). During the
economic depression, students (particularly in Oxford) responded to
his approach and were ordained ministers. Others gave all their time
to working with him. (www)
1928 - Summer (?), a group of Rhodes Scholars returned home to S.
Africa, from Oxford U, England to tell how their lives changed through
meeting Frank Buchman. A railway employee labeled their train
compartment The Oxford Group. The press took it up and the name stuck
(the name First Century Christian Fellowship faded). (RAA 120, www)
1931 - Dec, Russell (Bud) Firestone (alcoholic son of Akron, OH
business magnate Harvey Firestone Sr.) was introduced to Sam Shoemaker
by James Newton on a train returning from an Episcopal conference in
Denver, CO. Newton was a prominent Oxford Group member and an
executive at Firestone. Bud, who was drinking a fifth or more of
whiskey a day, spiritually surrendered with Shoemaker and was released
from his alcohol obsession. Bud joined the OG and became an active
member (but later returned to drinking). (NW 15, 65, AGAA 8-9, 32-36)
1932 - Rowland H found sobriety through the spiritual practices of the
Oxford Group (it is not clear whether this occurred in Europe or the
US - and it could have occurred in 1931). Rowland was a dedicated OG
member in NY, VT and upper MA and a prominent member of the Calvary
Episcopal Church in NYC. He later moved to Shaftsbury, VT. (NW 10-19,
NG 8-9, PIO 113-114, AGAA 28, 141-144, LOH 277-278, www)
1933
Jan, Harvey Firestone Sr. (grateful for help given his son Bud)
sponsored an Oxford Group conference weekend (DBGO says 10-day house
party) headquartered at the Mayflower Hotel in Akron, OH. Frank
Buchman and 30 members (DBGO says 60) of his team were met at the
train station by the Firestones and Rev Walter Tunks (Firestone’s
minister and rector of St Paul’s Episcopal Church). The event included
300 overseas members of the OG and received widespread news coverage.
The event attracted Henrietta Sieberling, T Henry and Clarace Williams
and Anne Smith. (NW 65-67, CH 2, DBGO 55, AGAA 9, 37-51, 71)
Early, Anne Smith attended meetings of the Oxford Group with her
friend Henrietta Sieberling (whose marriage to J Frederick Sieberling
was crumbling). Anne later persuaded Dr Bob to attend. The meetings
were held on Thursday nights at the West Hill group. (NW 67-68, SI 32,
34, DBGO 53-60, CH 2-3, 28-29) Beer had become legal and Dr Bob
previously went through a beer-drinking phase (“the beer experiment”).
It was not long before he was drinking a case and a half a day
fortifying the beer with straight alcohol. In his Big Book story, Bob
says that this was around the time when he was introduced to the OG.
He participated in the OG for 2 ½ years before meeting Bill. (DBGO 42,
AABB 177-178, NW 62)
1934
Jul, Ebby T was approached in Manchester, VT by his friends Cebra
Graves ~ (an attorney) and F Sheppard (Shep) Cornell ~ (a NY
stockbroker). Both were Oxford Group members who had done considerable
drinking with Ebby and were abstaining from drinking. They informed
Ebby of the OG in VT but he was not quite ready yet to stop drinking.
(EBBY 51-55, PIO 113)
Aug, Cebra G and Shep C vacationed at Rowland H’s house in Bennington,
VT. Cebra learned that Ebby T was about to be committed to Brattleboro
Asylum. Cebra, Shep and Rowland decided to make Ebby “a project.” (NG
309) Rowland H and Cebra G persuaded a VT court judge (Cebra's father
Collins) to parole Ebby T into their custody. Ebby had first met
Rowland only shortly before. In the fall, Rowland took Ebby to NYC
where he sobered up with the help of the Oxford Group at the Calvary
Mission. (RAA 151, AACOA vii, NW 20-21, 26, EBBY 52-59, NG 9-10, PIO
115, AGAA 155-156)
Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the Calvary Mission and working
with the Oxford Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with drinking. He
phoned Lois who invited him over for dinner. (EBBY 66) Ebby visited
Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one
alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii, 58-59) A few days later,
Ebby returned with Shep C. They spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group.
Bill did not think too highly of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited
several times, once even staying for dinner. (AACOA vii, NG 17-18,
311, BW-FH 57-58, NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192)
Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the Calvary Mission on 23rd St.
He showed up drunk with a drinking companion found along the way (Alec
the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the service wanting to speak. On the
verge of being ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate of beans.
Bill later joined the penitents and drunkenly “testified” at the
meeting. (AACOA 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, NW 23, PIO
116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156-159, EBBY 66-69)
Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had
his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got
financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA
61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).
Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the
Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep
depression (his “deflation at depth”) and had a profound spiritual
experience after crying out “If there be a God, will he show himself.”
Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang
on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
later refer to this as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience.
(AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO
120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)
Dec 15, Ebby brought Bill W a copy of William James' book The
Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply inspired by the
book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or
complete defeat in some vital area of life (hitting bottom), 2)
admission of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a higher power for
help (acceptance). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited
in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152,
NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)
Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He
and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at
Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary
Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park
Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held)
was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St.
(AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB
32-33, AGAA 144)
Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG
alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission.
Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA
141-142, NG 314)
1935
Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns
Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic
Oxford Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had
no success sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO
131-133)
Mar/Apr, Henrietta Sieberling (nicknamed “Henri”) encouraged by her
friend Delphine Weber, organized a Wednesday-night Oxford Group
meeting at T Henry and Clarace Williams’ house on 676 Palisades Dr.
The meeting was started specifically to help Dr Bob who later
confessed openly about his drinking problem. OG meetings continued at
the William’s house until 1954. (DBGO 56-59, AGAA 103 says May)
Apr, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop
preaching about his “hot flash” and hit the alcoholics hard with the
medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of
alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to
drink and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then
be easier to get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13,
67-68, BW-RT 211, NG 25-26, PIO 133) Bill W returned to Wall St and
was introduced to Howard Tompkins of the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins
was involved in a proxy fight to take over control of the National
Rubber Machinery Co. based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211, NG 26, BW-FH 74,
PIO 133-134, GB 33)
May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He
remained behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212,
PIO 134-135)
May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to
enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.
He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He
reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who
then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford
Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a
rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan
Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting
the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,
DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories
(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out
under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Dr. Bob’s
Nightmare 179, 4th Ed).
May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age
39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at
Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat
dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,
Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by
Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.
(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB
21)
May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in
vain to sober up a Dr McKay, ~ a “once prominent surgeon” who
developed into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C).
Henrietta Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country
Club. (DBGO 70, 77)
Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill
insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that
he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with
alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at
the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to
the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,
DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture
readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians
Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96
says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the
Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)
1936
Bill W's efforts in working only with alcoholics were criticized by NY
Oxford Group members. Similarly, in Akron, T Henry and Clarace
Williams were criticized as well by OG members who were not supportive
of their efforts being extended primarily to alcoholics. (NG 44-45, NW
73, AGAA 76)
Jun, the Oxford Group was at the height of its popularity. 10,000
people (GB 46 says 5,000) flocked to the Berkshires for a meeting at
Stockbridge, MA. (PIO 170) An OG “house-party” (a cross between a
convention and a retreat) in Birmingham, England drew 15,000. (GB 46,
AAGA 173)
Aug 26, Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group experienced an
international public relations disaster. A NY World Telegram article
by William H Birnie, quoted Buchman as saying, “I thank heaven for a
man like Adolph Hitler, who built a front-line of defense against the
anti-Christ of Communism.” Although the remark was taken out of
context in its reporting, it would plague Buchman’s reputation for
many years. It marked the beginning of the decline of the OG. (NW 30,
96, DBGO 155, BW-FH 96, PIO 170-171, GB 53, AGAA 161)
1937
Early, Bill W and Lois attended a major Oxford Group house party at
the Hotel Thayer in West Point, NY. For the previous 2 ½ years they
had been attending two OG meetings a week. (NW 89)
Late spring, leaders of the Oxford Group at the Calvary Mission
ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St.
Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having “drunks only”
meetings at their home. The Wilson’s were described as “not maximum”
(an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG
principles). (EBBY 75, LR 103, BW-RT 231, NG 45, NW 89-91)
Aug, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs
separated from the OG. (LR 197, AACOA vii, 74-76)
1938 - Nations of the world armed for World War II and Frank Buchman
called for a “moral and spiritual re-armament” to address the root
causes of the conflict. He renamed the Oxford Group to Moral
Re-Armament. (www, NW 44)
1939
May 10, Led by pioneer member Clarence Snyder ~ (Home Brewmeister) the
Cleveland, OH group met separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at
the home of Albert (Abby) Goldrick ~ (He Thought He Could Drink Like a
Gentleman). This was the first group to call itself Alcoholics
Anonymous. The Clevelanders still sent their most difficult cases to
Dr Bob in Akron for treatment. (AACOA 19-21, NW 94, SI 35, DBGO
161-168, NG 78-79, PIO 224, AGAA 4, 201, 242).
Oct (late), (AACOA viii says summer) Akron members of the “alcoholic
squad” withdrew from the Oxford Group and held meetings at Dr Bob’s
house. It was a painful separation due to the great affection the
alcoholic members had toward T Henry and Clarace Williams. (NW 93-94,
SI 35, DBGO 212-219, NG 81, GTBT 123, AGAA 8-10, 188, 243)
1941 - Nov, Dr Sam Shoemaker left the Oxford Group (then called Moral
Re-Armament) and formed a fellowship named Faith at Work. MRA was
asked to completely vacate the premises at Calvary House. Shoemaker’s
dispute with Buchman was amplified in the press. (EBBY 75-76, AAGA
161, 244)
1949 - Jul 14, in a letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote “So
far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA.
It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning.” (AGAA 137)
1961 - Frank N D Buchman died. Moral Re-Armament had declined
significantly in numbers and influence and became headquartered in
Caux, Switzerland. (NW 45, 97-98) In 2001, MRA changed its name to
Initiatives of Change. A month after Buchman’s death Bill W wrote to a
friend regretting that he did not write to Buchman acknowledging his
contributions to the AA movement. (www, PIO 386-387)
SOURCE REFERENCES:
AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)
CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by
Christine Brewer (soft cover)
DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS
EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)
GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)
GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)
LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)
NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman, nee AA the
Way It Began (soft cover)
SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)
www - Internet Sources (e.g. Google, Microsoft Encarta, etc.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2362|2355|2005-05-02 11:27:21|ny-aa@att.net|Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group|
Checking in the Oxford Groups was not necessarily intrusive
or confrontational. In morning Quiet Time, there would be a
period in which members would write "luminous thoughts" they
received into their Guidance Books. This was at a level
of inspiration that was almost automatic writing. When a
member then read what he had written, it might apply to
some situation he was dealing with or it might not mean
anything to him until later that day.

If a number of OG members were in Quiet Time together, it
was common practice to share what Guidance had been written.
Others might help to Check the interpretation. Sometimes,
what one member had written might match the Guidance that
another had received that same day. This was taken as
further evidence that it was Guidance from God.

Some of this brought criticism to the Oxford Groups that
automatic writing was an occult, not a Christian, practice.
| 2363|2363|2005-05-02 12:17:46|erstwhile_erratic_aa|Origins of 4th step column format|
I am wondering if anyone out there knows where Bill got the 4th step
format as found in the Big Book? It is clear self-apprasial,
restitution, etc. come from common spiritual practice. But did Bill
get the column format from an early psychologist or the like? The
4th step prayer (the so-called 3 1/2th column) and the looking at our part(the infamous 4th column), the things he asks us to focus on: self-
esteem, security, ambitions, personal and sex relations. That
troublesome little word fear, etc. Thank you in advance.

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.
| 2364|2364|2005-05-02 12:19:23|erstwhile_erratic_aa|3rd legacy voting procedure origins|
In a similiar request to the 4th step origins I asked. What about the
3rd legacy voting procedure. It is unique to AA but the recent voting
at the Vatican seems very similiar. Any ideas where Bill got this
format for voting?

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.
| 2365|2365|2005-05-02 12:27:50|ny-aa@att.net|WayBack Machine Internet Archive|
AA's presence on the internet is part of AA history.
Much of that history has been archived and is available
on-line. You can get to it through the WayBack Archive:

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

When that page comes up, enter a URL that interests you.
There is a good chance that versions of that web page
will be available going back a number of years. If the
exact page you want did not exist in the past, you may
have to start with the root URL and work from there.

Here is an example of the history of http://aa.org/
It was also available as http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/
so try it both ways. Both go back to 1996 but they are
slightly different:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://aa.org/
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/

Some of the images may not be available in the WayBack
Archive but you get a good idea of what was on a page.
I believe I've seen cases where a missing image became
available a day later. If you don't get any response,
try again when the server is less busy.

There is even a link that you can drag to your browser's
toolbar to perform WayBack lookup on what you are seeing
at the moment.
| 2366|2366|2005-05-02 12:27:54|gvnurse2001|Bill W Quote|
There is a quote attributed to Bill W, where (talking about
Television) he says something about "The future of AA depends on how
we use this new technology." It was widely circulated in Online AA.
Can anyone give me the exact wording of the quote and tell me where it
originated?
Thanks,
Sharon H in California
| 2367|2367|2005-05-02 12:28:50|Danny S|Bill W.'s Golf Game|
We all know that Bill Wilson never did manage to "overtake" Walter
Hagen, the flamboyant golf champion. Bill's golf playing is mentioned
in several books, including the Big Book.

But, does anyone know of any mention, anywhere, that would give even a
hint of just what kind of game Bill played?

I like substantiated facts regarding our history, but I'd settle for
hearsay on this one.

How good a golfer was he in fact?

Peace,

Danny S
| 2368|2338|2005-05-02 12:28:52|jimmy|Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism|
In addition to these movies, there was a made for tv film (like
hallmark hall of fame, but it was ABC Afterschool Special), entitled
"Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic."

I know a number of teenagers in AA, who actually refer to that film as
instrumental in carrying the message to them.

Jimmy Moss, Burbank, CA USA
| 2369|2355|2005-05-02 12:36:52|Jim Blair|Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group|
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group

Here are a couple of explainations from Bill W.



7Q - What did A.A. learn from the Oxford Group and why did they leave them?

7A - AA's first step was derived largely from my own physician, Dr.
Silkworth, and my sponsor Ebby and his friend, from Dr, Jung of Zurich. I
refer to the medical hopelessness of alcoholism - our 'powerlessness' over
alcohol.

The rest of the Twelve Steps stem directly from those Oxford Group teachings
that applied specifically to us. Of course these teachings were nothing new;
we might have obtained them from your own Church. They were, in effect, an
examination of conscience, confession, restitution, helpfulness to others,
and prayer.

I should acknowledge our great debt to the Oxford Group people. It was
fortunate that they laid particular emphasis on spiritual principles that we
needed. But in fairness it should also be said that many of their attitudes
and practices did not work well at all for us alcoholics. These were
rejected one by one and they caused our later withdrawal from this society
to a fellowship of our own - today's Alcoholics Anonymous.

Perhaps I should specifically outline why we felt it necessary to part
company with them. To begin with, the climate of their undertaking was not
well suited to us alcoholics. They were aggressively evangelical, they
sought to re-vitalize the Christian message in such a way as to "change the
world." Most of us alcoholics had been subjected to pressure of evangelism
and we never liked it. The object of saving the world - when it was still
very much in doubt if we could save ourselves - seemed better left to other
people. By reason of some of its terminology and by exertion of huge
pressure, the Oxford Group set a moral stride that was too fast,
particularly for our newer alcoholics. They constantly talked of Absolute
Purity, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Honesty, and Absolute Love. While
sound theology must always have its absolute values, the Oxford Groups
created the feeling that one should arrive at these destinations in short
order, maybe be next Thursday! Perhaps they didn't mean to create such an
impression but that was the effect. Sometimes their public "witnessing" was
of such a character to cause us to be shy. They also believed that by
"converting" prominent people to their beliefs, they would hasten the
salvation of many who were less prominent. This attitude could scarcely
appeal to the average drunk since he was anything but distinguished.

The Oxford Group also had attitudes and practices which added up to a highly
coercive authority. This was exercised by "teams" of older members. They
would gather in meditation and receive specific guidance for the life
conduct of newcomers. This guidance could cover all possible situations from
the most trivial to the most serious. If the directions so obtained were not
followed, the enforcement machinery began to operate. It consisted of a sort
of coldness and aloofness which made recalcitrants feel they weren't wanted.
At one time, for example, a "team" got guidance for me to the effect that I
was no longer to work with alcoholics. This I could not accept.

Another example: When I first contacted the Oxford Groups, Catholics were
permitted to attend their meetings because they were strictly
non-denominational. But after a time the Catholic Church forbade its members
to attend and the reason for this seemed a good one. Through the Oxford
Group "teams", Catholic Church members were actually receiving specific
guidance for their lives; they were often infused with the idea that their
Church had become rather horse-and-buggy, and needed to be "changed."
Guidance was frequently given that contributions should be made to the
Oxford Groups. In a way this amounted to putting Catholics under a separate
ecclesiastical jurisdiction. At this time there were few Catholics in our
alcoholic groups. Obviously we could not approach any more Catholics under
Oxford Group auspices. Therefore this was another, and the basic reason for
the withdrawal of our alcoholic crowd from the Oxford Groups notwithstanding
our great debt to them. (N.C.C.A. 'Blue Book', Vol. 12, 1960)
Another answer.
7A - The first A.A. group had come into being but we still had no name.
Those were the years of flying blind, those ensuing two or three years. A
slip in those days was a dreadful calamity. We would look at each other and
wonder who might be next. Failure! Failure! Failure was our constant
companion.

I returned home from Akron now endowed with a more becoming humility and
less preaching and a few people began to come to us, a few in Cleveland and
Akron. I had got back into business briefly and again Wall Street collapsed
and took me with it as usual. So I set out West to see if there was
something I could do in that country. Dr. Bob and I of course had been
corresponding but it wasn't until one late fall afternoon in 1937 that I
reached his house and sat in his living room. I can recall the scene as
though it were yesterday and we got out a pencil and paper and we began to
put down the names of those people in Akron, New York and that little
sprinkling in Cleveland who had been dry a while and despite the large
number of failures it finally burst upon us that forty people had got a real
release and had significant dry time behind them. I shall never forget that
great and humbling hour of realization. Bob and I saw for the first time
that a new light had begun to shine down upon us alcoholics, had begun to
shine upon the children of the night.

That realization brought an immense responsibility. Naturally, we thought at
once, how shall what we forty know be carried to the millions who don't
know? Within gunshot of this house there must be others like us who are
thoroughly bothered by this obsession. How shall they know? How is this
going to be transmitted?

Up to this time as you must be aware, A.A. was utterly simple. It filled the
full measure of simplicity as is since demanded by a lot of people. I guess
we old timers all have a nostalgia about those halcyon days of simplicity
when thank God there were no founders and no money and there were no meeting
places, just parlors. Annie and Lois baking cakes and making coffee for
those drunks in the living room. We didn't even have a name! We just called
ourselves a bunch of drunks trying to get sober. We were more anonymous than
we are now. Yes, it was all very simple. But, here was a new realization,
what was the responsibility of the forty men to those who did not know?

Well, I have been in the world of business, a rather hectic world of
business, the world of Wall Street. I suspect that I was a good deal of a
promoter and a bit of a salesman, rather better than I am here today. So I
began to think in business man's terms. We had discovered that the hospitals
did not want us drinkers because, we were poor payers and never got well.
So, why shouldn't we have our own hospitals and I envisioned a great chain
of drunk tanks and hospitals spreading across the land. Probably, I could
sell stocks in those and we could damn well eat as well as save drunks.

Then too, Dr. Bob and I recalled that it had been a very tedious and slow
business to sober up forty people, it had taken about three years and in
those days we old timers had the vainglory to suppose that nobody else could
really do this job but us. So we naturally thought in terms of having
alcoholic missionaries, no disparagement to missionaries to be sure. In
other words, people would be grubstaked for a year or two, moved to Chicago,
St. Louis, Frisco and so on and start little centers and meanwhile we would
be financing this string of drunk tanks and began to suck them into these
places. Yes, we would need missionaries and hospitals! Then came one
reflection that did make some sense.

It seemed very clear that what we had already found out should be put on
paper. We needed a book, so Dr. Bob called a meeting for the very next night
and in that little meeting of a dozen and a half, a historic decision was
taken which deeply affected our destiny. It was in the living room of a
nonalcoholic friend who let us come there because his living room was bigger
than the Smith's parlor and he loved us. I too, remember that day as if it
were yesterday.

So, Smithy and I explained this new obligation which depended on us forty.
How are we to carry this message to the ones who do not know? I began to
wind up my promotion talk about the hospitals and the missionaries and the
book and I saw their faces fall and straight away that meeting divided into
three significant parts. There was the promoter section of which I was
definitely one. There was the section that was indifferent and there was
what you might call the orthodox section.

The orthodox section was very vocal and it said with good reason, "Look! Put
us into business and we are lost. This works because it is simple, because
everybody works at it, because nobody makes anything out of it and because
no one has any axe to grind except his sobriety and the other guy's. If you
publish a book we will have infinite quarrels about the damn thing. It will
get us into business and the clinker of the orthodox section was that our
Lord, Himself, had no book.

Well, it was impressive and events proved that the orthodox people were
practically right, but, thank God, not fully right. Then there were the
indifferent ones who thought, well, if Smitty and Bill think we ought to do
these things well its all right with us. So the indifferent ones, plus the
promoters out voted the orthodoxy and said "If you want to do these things
Bill, you go back to New York where there is a lot of dough and you get the
money and then we'll see."

Well, by this time I'm higher than a kite you know. Promoters can stay high
on something besides alcohol. I was already taking about the greatest
medical development, greatest spiritual development, greatest social
development of all time. Think of it, forty drunks. (Chicago, Ill., February
1951)
| 2370|2355|2005-05-02 12:38:06|Ernest Kurtz|Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group|
Many books on the OG are often recommended, but rarely the best on
matters such as this: Walter Houston Clark, *The Oxford Group: Its
History and Significance*. Its 1951 publication date makes it all the more credible for matters concerning the OG and AA. (BTW: Clark treats briefly of AA at the conclusion of his book.) Should be available in most libraries.

ernie kurtz
| 2371|2363|2005-05-02 12:38:52|Jim Blair|Re: Origins of 4th step column format|
Tom wrote

I am wondering if anyone out there knows where Bill got the 4th step
format as found in the Big Book?

In the OG book "For Sinners Only" It was an oral process to get at the root
of the problem.
Jim
| 2372|2366|2005-05-04 11:02:09|Russ S|Re: Bill W Quote|
I believe the quote you are referring to is from a November 1960 Grapevine article by Bill called: Freedom Under God: The Choice is Ours. The theme of the article was The Twelve Traditions and Bill was speaking of the 11th Tradition. The quote(?):

Therefore nothing can matter more to the future welfare of AA than the manner in which we use this colossus of communication. Used unselfishly and well, the results can surpass our present imagination. Should we handle this great instrument badly, we shall be shattered by the ego demands of our own people--often with the best of intention on their part. Against all this, the sacrificial spirit of AA's anonymity at the top public level is literally our shield and our buckler. Here again we must be confident that love of AA, and of God, will always carry the day.

I've heard Don Imus speak about it MSNBC...

What do you suppose Bill would say about the Internet?

Russ S
Ogdensburg, NJ


-----Original Message-----
From: gvnurse2001 <cdnurse@foothill.net>
Sent: Apr 30, 2005 11:33 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W Quote


There is a quote attributed to Bill W, where (talking about
Television) he says something about "The future of AA depends on how
we use this new technology."  It was widely circulated in Online AA.
Can anyone give me the exact wording of the quote and tell me where it
originated?
Thanks,
Sharon H in California
| 2373|2338|2005-05-04 11:02:22|DeafAA@aol.com|Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism|
Hello:

I am wondering if they do still have VHS or DVD for "Sarah T:Portrait of a
Teenage Alcoholic"? I can't find where I can order it.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2374|2374|2005-05-04 11:07:41|Adam Martin|The man hiding in a bar|
I was wondering if anybody could anwser my question. Nobody in my town has a 100% for sure anwser.

My question is, does anybody know who the doctor was talking about in his story on pg. xxxi third paragraph (fourth edition). Maybe tell me who the case was and who the prominent doctor was who referred the case to Dr. Silkworth.

"When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in by a physician prominent in New York. The patient ... had hidden in a deserted barn determined to die."

Thank for everything guys,

Adam Martin Fargo, ND



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| 2375|2366|2005-05-04 11:10:58|Lou M|Re: Bill W Quote|
SEE THE LANGUAGE OF THE HEART FOR AN EASILY AVAILABLE TEXT OF THIS QUOTE.

It was in the Nov. 1960 Grapevine and is reprinted on pp. 319-320 of The Language of the Heart. While discussing Tradition 11 and personal anonymity, Bill writes (starting at the bottom of page 319):

"A vast communications net now covers the earth, even to our remotest reaches. Granting all its huge public benefits, this limitless world forum is, nevertheless a hunting ground for all those who would seek money, acclaim, and power at the expense of society in general. Here the forces of good and evil are locked in struggle. All that is shoddy and destructive contest all that is best.

"Therefore nothing can matter more to the future welfare of AA than the manner in which we use this colossus of communication. Used unselfishly and well, the results can surpass our present imagination. Should we handle this great instrument badly, we shall be shattered by the ego demands of our own people--often with the best intention on their part. Against all this, the sacrificial spirit of AA's anonymity at the top public level is literally our shield and our buckler. Here again we must be confident that love of AA, and of God, will carry the day."

The first two sentences of the second paragraph are the most often quoted and probably more often misquoted. I've been misquoting it for years as "Nothing matters more to A.A.'s future welfare than the manner in which we use this colossus of modern communication. Used unselfishly and well, it can produce results surpassing our present imagination...." Fortunately the meaning hasn't changed, and if the medium under discussion has changed from TV or other news or communication networks to the Internet, the message is just as strong and important.

Lou M.
Somerville, NJ
| 2376|2363|2005-05-04 11:15:32|Mitchell K.|Re: Origins of 4th step column format|
Also reference V. Kitchen's "I Was A Pagan" where the OG Game of Truth was laid out in columns with similar subject content. When you see this format it is extremely similar to the columns in the BB

Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

In the OG book "For Sinners Only" it was an oral process to get at the root of the problem.
| 2377|2377|2005-05-10 11:28:55|Glenn Chesnut|13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
There were two questions raised a couple of weeks ago, about "13th stepping" and "90 meetings in 90 days."

On Apr 25, 2005 "Julie" < zulie55@yahoo.com > asked about the term 13th stepping: "When did AA people first start using this phrase to refer to men AA members hitting on new women in the program (and vice versa), pretending that they were going to 'help' the newcomer understand the program?"

Gilbert Gamboa < text164@yahoo.com > raised a similar question about the phrase "90 meetings in 90 days." He believes that this recommendation came into AA teaching only in fairly recent years, and is a comparatively recent innovation.

-----------------------------------

"Jan Baldwin" < jbaldwin@imbris.com > and billyk < billyk3@yahoo.com > were also involved in the discussion.

-----------------------------------

MODERATOR: I asked one of the good old-timers about this, Sgt. Bill S. (Sonoma, California), who got sober in 1948, and had a good deal of personal experience of good early AA in the New York City area (especially on Long Island), in Akron, in Texas in the 1950's, and later in California (where he moved in 1966). He was closely associated at various points with Mrs. Marty Mann, Sister Ignatia, and Searcy, among other well-known early AA figures. This is taken from the two emails he wrote in response to my questions.

-----------------------------------

SGT. BILL S. < SAAA1948@aol.com >

Dear Glenn: We used to think that all the women who were either alcoholics or the wife of an alcoholic, were the enemy. I think the reason Al-Anon became an organization was because of the paranoia that existed among the members of AA.

This morning has been wonderful for me. I have just joined the Pearl Harbor Survivors and this morning I got a call from two members, one the president of the group. The first call started with, "Is this the Primo Kid?" Primo was the name of the beer in Honolulu, and when I pitched baseball on the Army Air Corps team in Hawaii before the Second World War began, the fans up in the stands used to shout when I came out to the pitcher's mound and call me the Primo Kid. I almost collapsed when he identified himself. It was one of the men I used to play baseball with and both he and the man who called later were members of my outfit. When I told the one I was in AA for 56 years and had written two books he said I am happy that you no longer drink but I am not surprised that you wrote the books. Everyone thought that you were smart but a drunk. The second call was from another member of my Squadron who is now the president of the Pearl Harbor group.

I must admit that I never heard the term "13th Stepping" until I moved to California in 1966 and even then it was after that, in the 1980's, that I first heard the term used. However I am familiar with the basis for this slogan. When I first got sober in 1948, there was a lot of suspicion surrounding the relationship between AA members and the spouses of the alcoholics.

Early on, it was suggested that men only sponsor men and women only sponsor women. The basis for this was the suspicion that there was a lot of sexual activity between alcoholic women and male AA members.

You are right on with your reference to the transference phenomenon, which particularly affects the therapeutic relationship between a male psychiatrist and a female patient (and vice versa), but in fact will affect any counseling relationship, including AA sponsorship. The female patient begins to develop romantic feelings toward the male psychiatrist because of the degree of psychological intimacy involved (or vice versa with a female psychiatrist and a male patient). There is a tendency for some to put desire before honor.

I recall that there were very few females in my group in Valley Stream, New York, when I first got sober, and those who did attend meetings were assumed to be loose. Dependents of alcoholics attended the meetings until Al-Anon was formed and most of them became part of that group. (Many female alcoholics attend Al-Anon meetings today and vice versa.)

I truly believe that Lois assisted in the formation of the first Al-Anon group because of Bill's lust.

I do not know the origin of the "13th Stepping" saying but it was after I came to California in 1966.

Also 90 meetings in 90 days was never advocated until treatment centers sprang up and recommended that amount of time to enhance recovery (also the need for cash for treating the alcoholic).

Because I was in the military during the earlier days, many things of an historical significance in AA in the civilian sphere were unknown to me. I am sorry I cannot be more specific.

Love Bill

-----------------------------------

REFERENCES:

Sgt. Bill S., On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program: The Air Force Sergeant Who Beat Alcoholism and Taught Others to Do the Same (2003).

Also http://hindsfoot.org/bsv02psy.html , http://hindsfoot.org/bsv01thr.html , http://hindsfoot.org/bswnorm.html , http://hindsfoot.org/kbs2.html , http://hindsfoot.org/kbs3.html





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2378|2378|2005-05-10 11:41:43|philip luppy|Nancy Olsen|
Nancy Olson; Hill Aide and Lobbyist


By Adam Bernstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 15, 2005; Page B06


Nancy Moyer Olson, 75, who died of congestive heart failure March 25 at a care center in Roanoke, was a legislative aide to two Democratic U.S. senators and later became a lobbyist on trade issues. She also was a former actress and recovering alcoholic who briefly aspired to be a nun.

Ms. Olson spent the past decade lecturing internationally about alcoholism; starting a Web site about the history of Alcoholics Anonymous; and writing a book, "With a Lot of Help From Our Friends" (2003), about her role working with Sen. Harold E. Hughes (D-Iowa), one of the first politicians to publicly acknowledge his alcoholism.

Ms. Olson was born in Kingston, Pa., to an alcoholic father who later fell to his death from a hospital window. She served in the Women's Army Corps in the late 1940s in Panama and then briefly married a soldier, who brought her to his home in Chicago.

Bored as a housewife, she applied for a secretarial job and won a position working for philosopher Mortimer J. Adler at the University of Chicago. She was insecure about her lack of formal education and was uneasy about being called "God's secretary" -- a reference to Adler's reputation.

She recalled frequent conversations with Adler, who tried to encourage her by giving her books to read. "Here, I want you to read this chapter," she recalled him telling her after one talk. "You will see that Aristotle agrees with you."

As a young woman, she bore a vague resemblance to Grace Kelly and longed for an acting career. Adler helped her with a letter of introduction to study at the Pasadena Playhouse in California, but she had little luck impressing film studios. "The big Hollywood producers," she once wrote, "never tumbled to my charms."

Instead, she traveled the Caribbean with a British banker and began her descent into alcoholism. Having her "breakfast beer" one morning in 1965, she saw a program about alcoholism and instantly saw herself reflected in the testimonies of those who similarly suffered from a need to drink.

"I had known for some time that I was an alcoholic, but I thought it was my secondary problem," she wrote.

"I believed that I was insane, and that was why I drank too much and thus had become an alcoholic. (God knows I had been doing a lot of insane things.)"

She joined Alcoholics Anonymous and was doing volunteer work for the Democratic National Committee in Chicago in 1968 when she met Hughes, who was impressed with her life story and invited her to Washington to join his staff. She worked for the special subcommittee on alcoholism and narcotics and played a key role in drafting the so-called Hughes Act, which established the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.

She helped Hughes in his unofficial work on Capitol Hill as a counselor to alcoholics.

After Hughes left political life to pursue the ministry, she joined the staff of Sen. Harrison A. "Pete" Williams Jr. (D-N.J.).

She also suffered a nervous breakdown and, long agnostic, converted to Catholicism.

Discouraged by the 1980 Republican landslide election and feeling embattled by the liquor lobby, she entered the Visitation of Holy Mary, a cloistered monastery in Georgetown, with the idea of becoming a nun. She was 51, and various physical ailments, especially weakened legs, prevented her from completing many of the conditions of sisterhood that required long periods of standing.

She resumed her political career as a legislative analyst and lobbyist until her retirement in 1995.

Her marriage to Everett Olson ended in divorce. Survivors include a sister, Jean Earl of Roanoke.

� 2005 The Washington Post Company

FOR PHOTOS AND MORE DETAILS SEE:
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html>
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html>
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html>
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html>
| 2379|2379|2005-05-10 13:25:56|ny-aa@att.net|Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom|
-------------------------------
[MODERATOR'S SUMMARY OF THE DATA GIVEN BELOW: 56% of those who stay three months are still active in AA at the end of a year. That first year is the hardest: the retention rates dramatically improve for those who have earned their one-year chip. The current U.S. population (U.S. Census Bureau) is 296 million, with around 220 million over eighteen years of age. In the data given below, the NIAAA estimates that roughly 8% of the U.S. population over age 18 abuse alcohol (17.6 million out of 220 million), but that there are only 7.9 million true alcoholics over eighteen years of age in the U.S., which is 3.6% of the population over eighteen years of age. With roughly 1 million AA members, that means that around 12 to 13% of these genuine alcoholics (about one out of eight) is in AA at this point.]
-------------------------------

FROM <ny-aa@att.net>:

There is a tendency of some observers to offer a pessimistic view of A.A. today. This becomes the basis for advocating return to the practices of some time in the past. Often, they back this up with a misreading of one particular graph in a summary of the 1977 through 1989 Triennial Surveys.

"Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First Year Who Have Remained the Indicated Number of Months." It graphed the "Month" and "Dist" (distribution) columns here. Note the "Dist" column adds up to 100. It is NOT a retention percentage. For every 100 people surveyed with under a year, 13% were in their 2nd month and 9% were in their 4th month. The "New" column I added is scaled to show retention. The "3mo" column tracks retention after the usual introductary period when, presumably, only "real alcoholics" (about half) will stay.

Month Dist . New . 3mo
1 ... 19 ... 100
2 ... 13 .... 68
3 ... 10 .... 53
4 .... 9 .... 47 . 100 <=== Over 3 months
5 .... 8 .... 42 .. 89
6 .... 7 .... 42 .. 83
7 .... 7 .... 36 .. 77
8 .... 6 .... 34 .. 72
9 .... 6 .... 32 .. 68
10 ... 6 .... 30 .. 64
11 ... 6 .... 28 .. 60
12 ... 5 .... 26 .. 56

The Dist(1)=19 does NOT mean that "81% dropped out in a month." Dist(3)=10 does NOT mean that "90% leave within three months." And Dist(12)=5 does NOT mean that "95 abandon active participation in AA inside of a year." What it does show is that 56% of those who stay three months are still active in A.A. at the end of a year. Other Survey results show substantially better retention rates after the first year. Here is a typical example of misinterpretation of the table.

> "Those of us who have survived in A.A. for a
> good many years know for a certainty the dire
> failure statistics of today -- statistics reported
> by A.A.'s own service structure:
> 81% of new members drop out in a month;
> 90% leave within three months; and
> 95% abandon the active participation in AA inside of a year."

That's just not true. Another misreading of statistics is to forget that not everyone who shows up at an A.A. meeting is an alcoholic. And not everyone with "a drinking problem" is an alcoholic (yet) either. For example, in 2002 the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism said that there were 9.7 million "alcohol abusers" and 7.9 million "alcohol dependent people" over age eighteen. There are clear definitions for these two categories. Only the 7.9 million are what A.A. calls "real alcoholics." These NIAAA numbers are misquoted as:

> "And in America, there are less than a million
> AAs at any given time out of an estimated
> eighteen million alcoholics in all."

Eighteen million is the total of "real alcoholics" and "a certain type of hard drinker." Further, most alcoholics have never tried or even visited Alcoholics Anonymous and have never made any serious attempt at recovery through any other means. With that in mind, one million sober American AAs is rather impressive.
It also shows the need to reach out and invite more alcoholics to try Alcoholics Anonymous. Let's hope the pessimistic message of gloom-and-doom doesn't scare away and discourage the rest of those who need help.

-------------------------------
[ADDITIONAL NOTE BY MODERATOR: In early AA, they often said that 50% of those (as they put it) "who made a serious effort" in AA got sober the first time they tried. Careful reading of the early documents and interviews with old timers makes it clear that they were not counting those who came to a few meetings but then fizzled out when they gave their 50% success rate. When early groups gave their membership figures, they usually made a rough-and-ready but clear distinction between the numbers of those at their weekly meetings who were just coming to a few meetings at that point and the numbers of those who were much more committed members. So early success rates were not actually all that much different from the present success rate. AA is still extraordinarily effective today, just as it was in the old days, particularly when we remember that alcoholism has always been the third leading cause of death in the United States ever since the 1930's: a fifty percent remission rate for what is frequently a fatal disease is medically impressive by any standards.]
-------------------------------
| 2380|2377|2005-05-10 13:52:05|Bruce Lallier|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
Hi Glen, I first remember hearing 90 & 90 in about 1973 so the person who said after treatment centers began popping up was just about correct. It was in the early 70's when insurance carriers started covering the costs when we saw them popping up like mushrooms in Conn. where I sobered up. High Watch in Kent was about the only pure treatment center for Alcoholism and was more of a retreat at that time. A lot af AA history is there and if memory serves me correctly Lois gave a lot of Bills writtings to the farm. I do know she gave a nice painting of him which is (was) hung in the room just off the chapel.
A great place but I believe they had to go more treatment to conform to regulations dictated by the state. I knew Frank J. well as he was from my area prior to taking over at High Watch and for a while the state was trying to close the place (early 80's) I do remember conducting some of the morning Chapels there and always felt honored to be speaking from where Bill so often did as he was a regular there and brought Ebby there on occasion. He and Marty and some otheres from NY actually were instrumental in getting it started in I believe 1939.

Bruce L.

------------------------
GLENN C. (SOUTH BEND):
Exactly, just like you say, it was the health insurance providers who were part of the driving force here. Thank you for bringing that up, because it is important to understanding what happened. Insurance carriers only began funding alcoholism rehabilitation after the passing of the Hughes Act at the beginning of the 1970's (our former moderator Nancy Olson played a major role in helping to get this act passed, and then implemented with proper funding, which was equally vital). The spread of more and more alcoholism treatment facilities for people whose bills were paid by health insurance carriers continued into the 1980's and early 1990's. The insurance carriers then began shutting off the funding, which caused more and more of the psychiatrically-oriented alcoholism treatment facilities to begin closing down, so that there are very few of them left today, compared to the numbers in existence during their hey-day. Nancy Olson's book makes clear that psychiatrists who had their own theories about how to treat alcoholism were attempting to grab the government funds provided by the Hughes Act all through the 1970's, at the expense of AA interests, so this is not a new conflict. A good deal of Nancy's efforts from 1970-1980 were devoted to keeping (a) the psychiatrists and (b) those who were really interested only in drug addiction from taking control of all the U.S. government funding of alcoholism treatment and diverting it to their own purposes.
| 2381|2377|2005-05-10 13:53:55|Andrew W-S|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
I don't know when the expression '13th-stepping' came in, but a lot of us, including me, wish to God that the practice would die out!

Seriously, though, I also heard of the funeral of an AA member at which the deceased was said to have 'taken the 13th step', which was to die sober and move on from this world. I have no idea how widespread that is.

Andrew
(in England)
| 2382|2377|2005-05-10 13:54:02|Mel Barger|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
It may be coincidence, but the Oxford Group did have a policy of men
working with men and women working with women. This may have carried over into AA. As for using 13 for the number, it logically follows just as 19th Hole suffices for the drinking that follows a golf game!
Mel Barger
| 2383|2374|2005-05-10 14:13:37|Jim Blair|Re: The man hiding in a bar|
Adam wrote, "Maybe tell me who the case was and who the prominent doctor was who referred the case to Dr. Silkworth."

----------------------------------
Fitz Mayo author of "Our Southern Friend."

Jim
----------------------------------
lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>

The man's name is Fitz Mayo, his story "Our Southern Friend" pg. 497 in the 3rd edition.
----------------------------------
From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com>

John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo. See posts 2332 & 2333. Dick Spaedt
| 2384|2364|2005-05-10 14:14:22|Roger Wheatley|Re: 3rd legacy voting procedure origins|
Pass It On page 346 provides some insight into the purpose and how the 3rd Legacy Procedure was born while developing the structure of our first General Service Conference. Perhaps someone knows who "suggested" this solution and can shed some more light on how they came to this brilliant solution to what could have been a divisive problem.

"Bill wanted the delegates to be truly representative of their areas, but he also wanted to avoid the, "hotly contested close election, which nearly always left behind a large and discontented minority." The problem of how the delegates were to be elected was a perplexing one. The solution suggested was to provide for the submission of written ballots, and to require that any single candidate receive a two-thirds majority of the vote for election. In the event that there were several strong contenders and no single one received a two-thirds majority, the names of the front-runners could be placed in a hat and the winner chosen by lot."

RW

erstwhile_erratic_aa <aa101@bellsouth.net> wrote:
In a similiar request to the 4th step origins I asked. What about the
3rd legacy voting procedure. It is unique to AA but the recent voting
at the Vatican seems very similiar. Any ideas where Bill got this
format for voting?

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.








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| 2385|2363|2005-05-10 14:35:02|ny-aa@att.net|Re: Origins of 4th step column format|
History Lovers may have a hard time finding "I Was a Pagan"
from 1934 that Mitch mentioned in their library or book store.
This may solve that problem.

http://www.stepstudy.org/downloads/pagan.pdf

Fortunately, one AA group has made the complete text available
on the internet. I think somebody else had this in his collection
but that site was taken down. Anyhow, this works. Thanks.

------ Original message --------
From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
Also reference V. Kitchen's "I Was A Pagan" where the OG Game of Truth was laid out in columns with similar subject content. When you see this format it is extremely similar to the columns in the BB

--------------------------------
MODERATOR: The reference here I believe is to page 49 of "I Was a Pagan":

IN MY OLD LIFE

[1] I MOST LIKED:
Myself.
Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of self-indulgence.
Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions power, position and applause, or pumped up my self esteem.
To be left largely to myself
My wife�because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me.

[2] I HATED MOST:
Poverty (for myself).
Prohibition.
Work.
People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me
Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions.

IN MY NEW LIFE

[3] I MOST LIKE:
God.
Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ.
The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God�s guidance
Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of Christ-centered life and the witnessing to all of what
Christ has come to mean to me
My wife�because of the things God now enables us to do for each other

[4] I HATE MOST:
Sin.
Self, because �I� is the middle letter of SIN.
Sins that separate me from God.
Sins that separate me from people.
Anything that falls short of God�s plan for me.
| 2386|2338|2005-05-10 14:45:32|Rickydotcom|Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism|
[DeafAA@aol.com wrote: Hello: I am wondering if they do still have VHS or DVD for "Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic"? I can't find where I can order it.]

Try these two links:

http://www.5minutesonline.com/1D/SARAH.htm

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/search-handle-form/103-2404522-4258239

If the 2nd link doesn't wotk, go to Amazon.com and search under the "z Shops" tab.

Best wishes,
Rick B.
aka Rickydotcom
Hagerstown, Maryland

-----------------------
From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com> Thu May 5, 2005
I found two VHS and one DVD of this movie for sale on ebay this morning. <http://ebay.com>

Dick Spaedt
| 2387|2338|2005-05-10 14:48:12|Buck|Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism|
AA History Lovers,
You may want to consider "Under the Volcano" with Albert Finney for this list.
| 2388|2388|2005-05-10 14:48:24|Carl P.|Psychiatric Help ?|
Please could somebody tell me, if, at the time the Big Book was being
written did Bill W have anybody in the psychiatric field helping with
the composing of the Big Book.
| 2389|2377|2005-05-10 15:20:13|Dean @ e-AA|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
The first mention of a thirteenth step may have been in the April 1947
Grapevine article by Bill W. entitled "Clubs in AA": "... we might think we
couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as central AA
institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program. ..."

In the August 1953 issue, in "Of Mountains and Molehills," there's a
different use of the term: "These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and
generalities, never bothering to go much into detail. They speak 'sweet
music' in a serious vein, never seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of,
'Not taking yourself too darn seriously, and not forgetting your sense of
humor.'"

The first appearance in the Grapevine of the term using the meaning we
attach today seems to be in the title of a letter --"Thirteenth Step?" -- in
the September 1974 issue.

When I got to AA, the oldtimers around here (Monterey, California) had a
still different twist on it: They said that originally the thirteenth step
was meant to protect, or warn, people who were already sober. The new folks
(men or women) were "nuts" (as I was insane when I got to AA), and entering
relationships with new folks was not a good thing for one's serenity.

-- Dean Collins
| 2390|2377|2005-05-10 15:27:45|t|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
I managed to pull a few quotes from old Grapevines where these phrases were used.

------------------------------

Thirteenth stepping

Grapevine, August 1953
"OF MOUNTAINS AND MOLEHILLS"
These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and generalities, never bothering to go much into detail. They speak "sweet music" in a serious vein, never seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of, "Not taking yourself too darn seriously, and not forgetting your sense of humor."

Grapevine, September 1974
[letter] "'Thirteenth Step'?"
I've just come from one of my favorite AA meetings, and I have an old familiar feeling- resentment! Two new gals (young and attractive) were there. Do you know, I had a hard time trying to talk with them, because the men in the group were surrounding them. I went through this same thing for a while, and believe me, it doesn't help the new gal. I don't hate men. In fact, I think they're great! But may I please ask the men in the program to just give us AA gals a chance to help the new, attractive women who come to AA for help? When I was new, I thought the gals were wonderful, but some of the men really seemed godlike to me. The hero worship bit just might cause some serious problems, especially if either the new gal or the AA man or both are married. The spouses are usually pretty mixed up, sometimes fed up, and pretty well sick of it all. They just can't and won't take too well to any more complications. They don't need any more problems.

March 1984
"Looking for Love"
That was the beginning. I went to AA. But it was not a cure! When I was three months sober, I was two months pregnant - a direct result of thirteenth-stepping. I didn't have alcohol in me now, but I was still looking for love in the wrong way. By the grace of God, I didn't have to live with that mistake, but I didn't learn from it,
either.


Grapevine, June 1985
"The Good Old Times"
"Together, Victor and the lady known as Lil started out to write the 'thirteenth step,' long before the first twelve were ever thought of. What is more, they say it began in Dr. Bob's office on his examination table while he was at the City Club engaged in his sacrosanct Monday-night bridge game.

Grapevine, July 1988
"My Sponsor is Getting Better"
Another time, while the group was having coffee after a meeting, Mardie started talking about the thirteenth step. She didn't say anything directly to me, but I knew she meant it for me. "When these people try to fall in love and get sober at the same time, there's bound to be problems. I've seen it happen time after time." I gritted my teeth, thinking, "Now, she's judging me and I haven't even done anything yet. Easy for her to say since she's married."

--------------------------------------------

90 Meetings in 90 Days

Grapevine, July 1953
"Ninety Days Will Do It"
[focus is on staying sober in the program for 90 days - doesn't necessarily mention 90 meetings in that time]


Grapevine, May 1971
[letter] "A plea for an open door"
A lot of my help when I first came to AA was given by members with ten, fifteen, or twenty years' sobriety. They said, "One day at a time, little gal. Take it easy. Ninety meetings in ninety days. Keep it simple." Last but not least: "Call us before you take that first drug or drink." They saved my life.


December 1973
"One-to-One"
Then came my fifteenth anniversary and dozens of cards from old friends and new. Before the meeting, the chairman called a girl to the front of the room to receive her ninety-day pin. She said a few words, grateful for being there, three months out of the jungle of active alcoholism. I recalled how difficult that first ninety days of sobriety had been for me, and how happy I had been that I didn't have to drink! ...


April 1975
"Three Times I've Come Here"
My faith is strong, but not enough. Just as my first six-month pink cloud when coming into AA was unearned - except by not drinking-so, too, my new faith is unearned, a gift. I talk a good program. Act little. For three months, I cut my wrists at meetings, beat my breast about not being active. Put up warning flares. Donald is going to get active! - when his ninety days are up. But I sit on my nether parts, do nothing. What kind of convert is this? Whining sublimely about faith and hope, he works not, neither does he reap. A fellow full of strong words, glibly sincere, bloated with gratitude. A statue to Bill W.!


Grapevine, June 1978
"The Fast Learner"
After this meeting, a few people came over to me with advice such as "Take the cotton out of your ears and keep it in your mouth for a total of ninety days" (which I immediately recognized as "Shut up, dummy, and listen"). Others told me to keep on talking at the meetings, because only by opening up could I be helped. Confusion!Which group should I please, and which should I offend?


Grapevine, February 1979
"The Day of the First Meeting"
Tonight, our group had the pleasure of presenting a ninety-day card, and the recipient came forward to accept it from me, the secretary. I saw a very attractive lady who had lost twenty pounds in ninety days, had a new, stylish hairdo, and was perfectly radiant. I choked up a bit as I handed the card to a lady who, ninety days ago on a cold winter morning, had bowed her head and said, "I'm an alcoholic and I need help."


Grapevine, October 1980
"Who's Responsible?"
For the next ninety days or so, Eddie was always there to take me to a meeting. I was scared, shaking, sometimes angry; but it didn't bother him. I learned a lesson from him that I used for many years: No matter how sick or shaky a man may be, take him to a meeting.


Grapevine, December 1981
"They Were Really Listening"
During the discussion period, I got to know them as individuals. There was a well-dressed, well-spoken older man, who had graduated from the Bowery; a truck driver who'd just made his first ninety days; a nurse; a television reporter who'd just gotten fired; a dese-dem-and dose guy who'd gone a few too many ...


Grapevine, May 1989
"The Bingo Card of Life"
Ninety meetings in ninety days is helpful advice for someone entering the program of recovery. We may not be drinking but inside we are falling apart. We are dry but we are still alcoholic, still sick. Acceptance and recovery both take time. For most of us, it took many years of practice to get here. Often we expect miracles overnight, but recovery is a gradual, day-by-day process.


Grapevine, September 1990
"To the Old-Timers of Tomorrow"
At that time we didn't have any place to meet except restaurants, hotel lobbies, and my home. We had only the Big Book and each other to attain and maintain our sobriety. We never heard of ninety meetings in ninety days. That would have been impossible because there was only one meeting a week in a hundred mile area.


Grapevine, November 1991
"Conscious Contact"
When I first joined AA I was an atheist and unable to pray. After attending ninety meetings in ninety days, I knelt by my bed one morning and in tearful frustration pounded with my fists and cried, "If you are up there, if there is a God, help me!" In the days to follow I tried to meditate and pray but I really didn't know how. Like many newcomers, the idea of meditation or prayer seemed too esoteric for me, something only priests or pastors could do. Gradually I was able to learn, through reading, and through much practice, to "let go and let God." But it took some doing!


Grapevine, May 1994
"It Works if You Work It"
I am not an old-timer. My sobriety is new and very precious to me. I have almost finished ninety meetings in ninety days. The first few days I dreaded going to the meetings. I put them on the level of an exercise class. You hate to go, but you go because you like the results.


Grapevine, January 1996
"Getting Stupid"
So AA's message has become watered down. For example, nowhere in our literature does it say anything about ninety meetings in ninety days, or that we have to learn to love ourselves. That's a detox message. Our literature, our message, talks about recovering one day at a time and getting out of selfcenteredness in order to recover. Nonalcoholics in AA is AA's fault because AA doesn't do its job in detoxes or in the courts to explain what we are.


Grapevine, August 1996
"Starting Over with Step One"
I left the third treatment center with a strong willingness to do whatever AA members told me to do. I went to ninety meetings in ninety days, I got a sponsor, I worked the Twelve Steps to the best of my ability at the time. I talked to God every morning and asked him to help me stay sober, and every night I thanked him for keeping me sober. Then I chaired meetings and got involved in Twelfth Step work. I was attending three meetings a week and finding happiness in sobriety.


Grapevine, February 1997
"Relocating Recovery"
By the time we reached ninety meetings in ninety days, I was in the psych ward at a prominent local rehab hospital. My system had gone into overload with the huge guilt trip of a totally negative inventory. But I was physically sober. My body was reeling and staggering from removing chemicals to which it was long accustomed.
| 2391|2391|2005-05-11 23:18:03|dinobb_dinobb|First 100 members|
Of the stories at the back of the original manuscript I counted -- please correct me -- 29 stories. From what I gather 17 died drunk. The ones that stand out are Bill R., Hank P., Ernie G. I know about stories in the pioneering section -- Marty M. discontinued sobriety, etc.

Any facts concerning this stuff is greatly appreciated. I heard
Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the original
memebers died drunk.
| 2392|2392|2005-05-11 23:21:31|Tom Hickcox|I Was a Pagan|
There are three listings for "I Was a Pagan" on eBay right now.

Items #6959438444, #6959720807, and #6960098301

There are also thirteen listed on Abe Books priced from $95 up.

Tommy in Baton Rouge
| 2393|2377|2005-05-11 23:24:48|Tom Hickcox|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
The Mardie mentioned in "My Sponsor Got Better" is Mardi V. right here in Red Stick.

I don't know if this link will work but it's for the story
<http://tinyurl.com/bt3tx>

Tommy
=================

Thirteenth stepping

Grapevine, July 1988
"My Sponsor is Getting Better"
Another time, while the group was having coffee after a meeting, Mardie started talking about the thirteenth step. She didn't say anything directly to me, but I knew she meant it for me. "When these people try to fall in love and get sober at the same time, there's bound to be problems. I've seen it happen time after time." I gritted my teeth, thinking, "Now, she's judging me and I haven't even done anything yet. Easy for her to say since she's married."
| 2394|2377|2005-05-11 23:25:07|Tom Hickcox|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
The first mention of a thirteenth step may have been in the April 1947
Grapevine article by Bill W. entitled "Clubs in AA": "... we might think we
couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as central AA
institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program. ..."

In the August 1953 issue, in "Of Mountains and Molehills," there's a
different use of the term: "These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and
generalities, never bothering to go much into detail. They speak 'sweet
music' in a serious vein, never seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of,
'Not taking yourself too darn seriously, and not forgetting your sense of
humor.'"

The first appearance in the Grapevine of the term using the meaning we
attach today seems to be in the title of a letter --"Thirteenth Step?" -- in
the September 1974 issue.

When I got to AA, the oldtimers around here (Monterey, California) had a
still different twist on it: They said that originally the thirteenth step
was meant to protect, or warn, people who were already sober. The new folks
(men or women) were "nuts" (as I was insane when I got to AA), and entering
relationships with new folks was not a good thing for one's serenity.

-- Dean Collins







Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2395|2377|2005-05-11 23:27:02|Gilbert Gamboa|Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"|
Wow Thats not what i said,I said we must not pre-occupy with such Trash as- "13 stepping, and 90 meetings and 90 days"..
in Fact the God Bless her soul Nancy O,told me personally that she first started hearing this in N.Y. AA around the early 70`s,a phrase she stated probally came from The "treatment Centers" as these were rules to follow after being released from treatment,again making it clear that in no way is it related to AA...........unless you want to get really technical a Model airplane a child plays with is just like a B-52 bomber,only great differences are there..
Trust God ,Clean house and Help Others
Gilbert Gamboa
| 2396|2388|2005-05-11 23:37:03|Art Sheehan|Re: Psychiatric Help ?|
Hi Carl

During Feb/Mar 1939, multilith copies of the Big Book manuscript, distributed for review, were returned. Reader’s comments produced few alterations in the final text. A major change did occur at the suggestion of a “Dr Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, NJ” who recommended toning down the use of “musts” and changing them to “we ought” or “we should.” Dr Silkworth (a neurologist) and Dr Tiebout (a psychiatrist) offered similar advice. (re AA Comes of Age [AACOA] pgs 167-168).

The only physician credited with contributing to the Big Book is Dr. Silkworth. He is also viewed by Bill W as a major contributor to the Steps (Language of the Heart pg 196). Reputedly one camp of NY members wanted the Steps to be more “psychological” than “theological proposition” (re Not God pg 71). Another major influence on the Steps was William James (The Varieties of Religious Experience) who is often called the founding father of American psychology.

Dr Harry Tiebout is credited with being AA’s “first friend of psychiatry” (re AACOA pg 2). He did not become aware of AA until he received a multilith copy of the manuscript for review (re AACOA pg 310). He gave the copy to Marty Mann.

Although not mentioned as an influence, perhaps the grand daddy of them all was Dr Benjamin Rush (1746-1813) of Philadelphia, PA. He was a member of the Continental Congress, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and Surgeon General of the Continental Army during the Revolution. He is often called both the father of American psychiatry and the father of the American temperance movement. In 1784 Rush wrote a 36-page paper titled An Enquiry into the Effects of Ardent Spirits on the Human Body and Mind. It described habitual drunkenness as a “progressive and odious disease” and asserted that total abstinence “suddenly and entirely” was the only effective treatment.
In 1810 Rush called for the creation of “Sober houses” where alcoholics could be confined and rehabilitated. It is a bit of irony that Dr Bob graduated from Rush University Medical School when he was doing some of the worst of his drinking.

With a little allowance for rule #62, it seems confident there were far more AA members who were psychotic, rather than psychiatrists, involved in putting the Big Book together. They didn’t do too bad at all either.

Cheers
Arthur


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2397|2397|2005-05-14 21:41:37|Glenn Chesnut|The Six Steps in Bill W's handwriting|
From: bikergaryg@aol.com Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:21pm

Folks

I bought a copy of this on e-bay and I wanted to share this with my friends.

It is summary of the early six-step version of the steps used in AA before the publication of the Big Book. It is written in Bill Wilson's handwriting and signed by him. It is dated April 1953, three months before the July 1953 Grapevine article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps" (reproduced in The Language of the Heart, page 200), and uses very similar though not identical wording.

There is a photo of my copy on the internet at http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html "Early Six-step Versions of the Steps."

Hope all is well.

Semper Gratus, Gary







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2398|2398|2005-05-14 21:46:01|Jim K.|International Convention Internet Group|
There is a Yahoo! Group that is set up for members of the internet community to meet each other at the International Convention in Toronto. It is located at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_International_Convention

A coffee hour is being set up, tee shirts being printed - a nice way to meet some of the people whose emails/posts you have been reading.

Jim
| 2399|2399|2005-05-14 21:46:38|J. Carey Thomas|90 in 90|
I have heard from several sources that the Salvation Army took on
"drunks" for a ninety-day commitment to their program of work, daily
meetings and "salvation." So far the sources cited in this forum
have been "treatment centers" which typically milk clients for thirty
(28) days, as that is the usual insurance coverage. Where did
"Ninety Days" come from?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------
Archivist - Area 15

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2400|2400|2005-05-14 21:47:53|ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net|Sotheby's manuscript|
Hi group,
Many of us recall the $1.56 milion paid last June for the final Feb. 1939 working draft of the Big Book, with its accepted bid telephoned in to Sotheby's from California.
What's become of the archival item and its buyer?
Rick T. Illinois
| 2401|2401|2005-05-14 22:18:54|Wendi Turner|Did Lois drive the motorcycle?|
"We gave up our positions and off we roared on a motorcycle, the sidecar stuffed with tent, blankets, a change of clothes, and three huge volumes of a financial reference service. Our friends thought a lunacy commission should be appointed. "
-- Alcoholics Anonymous P. 2-3

I've heard the Lois actually did much of the driving of the motorcycle during their adventures across the east coast, is this documented anywhere, does anyone know???
| 2402|2391|2005-05-14 22:49:35|Bill Lash|Re: First 100 members|
From: dinobb_dinobb
I heard Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the original memebers died drunk.

From: "Gallery" <gallery5@mindspring.com> Date: Thu May 12, 2005
I just listened to Clancy today: a tape called "Our Primary Purpose." Don't know the date or place but I would guess it to be from the late 80's or early 90's and he said that "many of the original members died drunk." I was going to post that same question myself. I know the statistics in the Foreward don't match with that (50%, then 25% come back - thus 75%).
Rotax Steve, Nangi namaj perez

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> Date: Fri May 13, 2005
This is true, many of the 1st Edition Big Book story authors did not stay sober. The earliest members learned a harsh lesson about recovery from alcoholism that is a lesson to us all - it's an Oxford Group term called "Continuance" (the last of the five C's). What they learned from their own experience was that they don't just do the practical program of recovery once & then rest on their laurels (past achievements). We don't awaken spiritually & then this initial awakening carries us for the rest of our lives. They learned this was not enough. We need to awaken spiritually & then continue to deepen & broaden our spiritual life through work & self-sacrifice for others. The spiritual experience of a year ago will not keep us sober today, just as the drink we had last week will not keep us drunk today. We need to grow in spiritual understanding & effectiveness by staying involved in all three parts of AA solution throughout our lives - Recovery (which is the working & re-working of all 12 Steps), Unity (AA meetings & interacting with other AAs), & Service (this includes inside our fellowship as well as outside our
fellowship, expecting nothing in return). This 3-part solution is found in our Circle & Triangle. This is a way of life, a design for living that works in rough going. I have NEVER known ANYONE who was CURRENTLY involved in ALL three parts of AAs solution on an ongoing basis who EVER went back to drinking. Thanks for your important question. Take it easy & God bless!
Just
Love,
Barefoot
Bill
| 2403|2401|2005-05-16 22:03:25|Art B|Did Lois drive the motorcycle?|
THE QUESTION WAS:

I've heard that Lois actually did much of the driving of the motorcycle during their adventures across the east coast. Is this documented anywhere, does anyone know???

---------------------------------

"Art B" <artb@netwiz.net>

Dear Lovers,

I love the comments about AA, and want to help on the Al-Anon family side. On page 39 of "Lois Remembers," Chapter 4, entitled "Two motorcycle hoboes." " As I sat in the driver's seat and turned on the gas, the sense of power - somehow mine, not the machine's - was tremendous."

Lois wrote her memoir after Bill's death. He didn't edit what she wrote (:>)) and it was printed in 1979. Copies are still available at Al-Anon meetings and the Al-Anon world service office.

Sincerely, Art B., California

(Same reference also from "Meggie" <meggie1270@wideopenwest.com>)

---------------------------------

khemex@comcast.net

The book, "Diary of two motorcycle Hobo's" Written by Bill and Lois Wilson 1925-27 during their two year trip has numerous references to the fact that Lois in fact did much of the driving, reason given that Bill would br reading reference material while researching their next company to investigate. That little book is just a wealth of historical background into Bill and Lois's lives before recovery entered their family. I believe this book is still in print and readily available. I hope this helps.
Gerry W.

(Same reference also from Greg Merkel <gregandkathy2@usfamily.net>)

---------------------------------

FROM "VERLIN:)"
See the photograph of Bill and Lois on the motorcycle at http://www.aabbsg.de/aahistoryphotos/page06.html and also the text underneath:

"Bill and Lois went scouting investments during the mid-1920's on their Harley Davidson. Lois often remarked that Bill usually let Lois drive while he sat in the side car. She said Bill preferred her doing the driving. Lois was really the Harley rider but Bill showed off here."

---------------------------------

"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

Lois told me that Bill preferred riding in the sidecar and she did most of the driving.

---------------------------------

FROM ARTHUR SHEERIN:

YES. In Lois’ diary during the motorcycle trips (which she published) she says for example:

PART I
New Poughkeepsie, N.Y.
Thurs., April 16, 1925
"It is cold in April riding a motorcycle without a windshield, but breathing in the ozone as we whiz along is most invigorating! When sitting on the driver's seat and turning on the gas I feel as if the whole world were mine. The sense of power, somehow not the machine's but mine, is tremendous."

---------------------------------
| 2404|2404|2005-05-16 22:21:31|Fiona Dodd|Marty Mann, "Counselling the Alcoholic"|
Counselling the Alcoholic
Mrs. Marty Mann
Executive Director
National Council on Alcoholism, New York

The Blue Book, Vol. XVIII, 1966
Hollywood-by-the-Sea, Florida



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the title of the talk assigned me, viz., "Counselling the Alcoholic."
I am not a counsellor. My experience in working directly with alcoholics
came through membership in AA. I have the honor of being the first woman who
made it in AA, and as that was 27 years ago this month, I have been around a
long time. I have done a great deal of 12th step work. In that sense it
could be said that I have counselled alcoholics. I think that is what one
does in 12th step work. And I think that is where one learns the two most
vital points in reaching and helping the alcoholic. These are what I want to
talk to you about.
I ought perhaps to address my remarks primarily to those who have not had
the indoctrination, the induction, into the field of counselling the
alcoholic that AA members automatically get.

Therefore, the first point I want to make is that, in my opinion, the first
requirement for successful counselling of the alcoholic is the correct
attitude of the person doing the counselling toward the alcoholic. There are
many highly qualified people in the field of counselling with all kinds of
degrees and many years of experience, but they can't work with alcoholics. I
think that very often they are unaware of the reason why they can't work
with alcoholics. As far as they know consciously they are sympathetic. They
recognize that these people are ill; in fact, they repeat happily the basic
statement of NCA that alcoholism is a disease. But actually they have given
only lip service to that concept. Intellectually they have accepted it —
intellectually only — and I would remind you as priests — you know this
better than I — that human beings do not act on their intellectual beliefs.
They act on their feelings; they act on the beliefs that are in their hearts
rather than in their heads. And if they do not deeply believe that
alcoholism is an illness, that these are sick people, in their hearts, then
they are ineffective in dealing with alcoholics.

The sad part about this is that far too many people do not recognize this
division within themselves. They are unaware that their disbelief runs deep,
sometimes so deep that they can't put their finger on it. It is a
conditioning that they probably received before they were six years old (and
the psychiatrists tell us that is crucial) that they imbibed almost with
their mother's milk, and at their mother's knee, and by osmosis, because of
the society in which we all grew up, acquired the old attitudes that
alcoholism is purely a sin, that this is a moral question, wholly and
completely. You see, nobody in the field of alcoholism denies that there are
tremendous moral implications in alcoholism, because of the behavior that it
induces and also because of the thinking that develops from continued
ingestion of alcohol. In AA we call it stinkin' thinkin'. It can be very far
from any of our ideals about morals and virtues and faith. All of these
things are true. But this is not what I am talking about.

I am talking about all the old-fashioned concepts with which all of us who
are adults grew up, whether we remember them or not: that alcoholics were
primarily some kind of moral delinquent, moral leper (excepting that they
are trying to get that "leper" out of our thinking, too, and call it by its
proper name); that these were people who, if they chose, could be different;
that they were deliberately this way, that they had no regard for anyone but
themselves. In fact, I have heard wives of alcoholics who said, "Oh, yes, I
know he is sick and all that, but why does he do this to me? Why does he
behave this way? Doesn't he love me? Doesn't he care about his family?"

Well, of course he does. He is in the grip of something that goes beyond his
power to control. He has lost control over drinking, and because of this, he
has lost control over his behavior.

Actually, non-alcoholics, if they get drunk, lose control over their
behavior. They can behave just as badly as the alcoholic. The main
difference is that they don't do it consistently over and over again with
increasingly frequency over many years.


Who is an Alcoholic?

We have a definition at NCAA that we use, that we think is a pretty good
working definition, and it developed right out of the experiences of AA, as
to who is and who isn't an alcoholic.

We say the alcoholic is someone whose drinking causes a continuing problem
in any department of his or her life. The assumption is that the person who
drinks too much on occasions, if it develops into a problem, will not want
the problem and will, therefore, take action about it because of the
problem. They either cut down their drinking, or they will cut it out for a
while. The alcoholic would like to do the same thing, but the alcoholic is
totally unable; it is impossible for the alcoholic to cut down on his or her
drinking. This is the nature of alcoholism.

In fact, it is the nature of the test that also grew out of AA's
experiences, and which I incorporated in my book. I don't believe any true
alcoholic can pass this test: the limiting of drinks to not more than three
on any drinking occasion, even if it is daily, over a six-month period.
Every alcoholic would love to be able to do this. I have never heard of a
real alcoholic who could pass that test.

Actually, in my original Primer, I had three months, and there were a
handful who managed to pass it. They didn't say how awful it was, and how
uncomfortable it was. And in the book I point out that this should be a
comfortable process. It should be comfortable to limit your drinks. You may
not like it, you may be on many occasions with people who are drinking too
much, and you would like to go on, but if you are taking this test, if you
are attempting to find out whether you have alcoholism or not, you will be
more comfortable not drinking more than your three because you want to pass
the test.

In other words, it is a possible thing for a non-alcoholic to do. It is not
a possible thing for an alcoholic to do. That is why it is a continuing
problem that is caused by drinking.

We also make a point of that last half, "in any department of his or her
life." You know AA has had a phrase which has proven very useful in AA, but
has been widely misinterpreted outside of AA, and even within, by some
people — hitting bottom.

The general picture in the non-alcoholic world in which we live, of
alcoholics hitting bottom, is literally that they instantly conceive of
somebody who is in the gutter, who has lost everything, lost everything
materially, intellectually, morally, has just lost everything — this is
hitting bottom.

Well, actually in the very early days of AA, that was about right. Certainly
when I went in, and there were just a handful of us, nobody had a dime; we
had all lost everything materially. Nobody had much of anything else. A few
still had their wives, but most didn't. And only one had her husband, I
being that one. The second woman did not have a husband. The third one still
had her husband, and this was a miracle — we didn't believe it — because
while wives sometimes stick to the alcoholic, husbands rarely do.


Younger People in AA

I firmly believe that with the increasing education about alcoholism,
increasing understanding of it, increasing acceptance of it as the illness
it is, people are coming for help at earlier and earlier stages of their
problems. It is not unusual to go to an AA meeting, particularly in a big
city, and find everybody there looking to me like infants. Now, I recognize
that is partly because of my own increasing age, for people look younger
every year, I find. But it is true that there are a very large number of
people in AA, all across the country, who are in their 20's today. This was
not true in the beginning. And these people have hit a kind of bottom that
is certainly totally unlike this general picture.

I think we have to recognize this in counselling the alcoholic — that this
bottom is a purely personal thing. A person may hit bottom because of his
own thinking on the subject, because of what he has learned, because of the
fact he has recognized what is ahead of him. Just enough has happened to
make him see that the pattern fits, and he has read about it, or listened to
someone who knows telling him about it. He sees what lies ahead, and he
doesn't want to go that road. And nobody would, if he had a choice.

Today he has a choice. There are things he can do. There are places he can
go; there are people that he can talk to, and he need not yield to, he is
not bound hand and foot to the inevitable progress of alcoholism. He can
break the chains. He can become free. It is very satisfying to me, to
realize how many young people are preferring to be free once they learn what
these chains are like.

Now "bottom" may not have shown on the outside at all. He may not have lost
anything. He may never have lost a job. He may not have lost his family or
even had the threat of losing his family. He may be materially well off, but
inside, as he recognizes his condition, and what it means, and where it will
lead, he hits a kind of emotional bottom. He hits bottom where it counts, in
the feelings. Alcoholics aren't any different from anybody else.

I like to tell my fellow alcoholics, remind them, we are people just like
anyone else. We have the same equipment that other people have. We have a
mind, we have an intellect, we have feelings — sometimes I think that is the
one area where we may be a little different — perhaps our feelings are more
acute, but I am not certain whether that antedated the ingestion of alcohol
or whether alcohol watered those feelings, like watering a garden. And they
became more acute and bigger and more visible than other people's.

We have a soul. I firmly believe every human being does, no matter what his
actions are, or what terrible things he may have done. We have all the
equipment of everybody else. We are people and, therefore, we share a lot of
the failings of the human race. I don't think alcoholics are unusually blind
to alcoholism. Everybody is blind to alcoholism. They are sharing what
everybody else has.

Remember, they were brought up the same way; they were also brought up under
the myths and misconceptions and misapprehensions that we all had about
alcoholism a quarter of a century ago. This is perhaps one reason why it is
becoming easier to reach young people. They didn't grow up in that same
atmosphere. Things had already begun to change somewhat.


The Skid Row Derelict

For instance, the stereotyped picture of the alcoholic that we who are
adults, middle aged if you like, grew up with was that of the skid row bum.

Now, the National Council on Alcoholism is very much interested in the skid
row derelict, but we have deliberately stayed away from getting too deeply
involved in this area of alcoholism because we were so determined to break
this stereotyped picture that this was the alcoholic, that there wasn't
anything else. You see, it is easy for people to accept this, because if
that is the alcoholic, it can't be me, or my wife, or my children, or my
family, or my friends, because we are not skid row bums.

It lets people off. It is a lovely way to get involved and yet to exclude
being involved in those who are close to you, in your own parishes if you
are a pastor, in your own colleges, in your own group of friends.

Actually the skid row problem is a severe one in this country, and yet it
represents only a tiny percentage of our total alcoholic population.

Over the last several years many of us have sat down together and worried
about the matter of statistics for the field of alcoholism. And let's be
honest, we don't have any. We just don't have any statistics that are really
valid. We only have estimates, but all of us felt that it could not be the
same number as had been arrived at for the year 1956. And that figure of 5
million was based on 1956 statistics, using the Jellinek formula to arrive
at an estimate of the number of alcoholics.

We all recognized that 10 years later, for one thing, the population had
increased enormously. This meant that the number of drinkers had increased,
because the proportion of Americans who drink has been going up. Since 1956
it has risen perceptibly, and this meant that since there were more
drinkers, there were undoubtedly more people with alcoholism. And so we
worked out a formula and we arrived at a figure for 1965 of 6½ million
alcoholics. And I may say, that it is possible to arrive at that figure for
1965 in quite a large variety of ways. We tried a good many of them, and
always came out with roughly the same answer. And so, it was decided that
the National Council and its affiliates would adopt that figure. We also
circulated the statement to all of the state programs on alcoholism. And
they were delighted to have it, because they had been feeling just as
uncomfortable as we had about using the same figure for ten years in the
face of what everyone knew to be a difference in the number of people, and
the number of drinkers, and, therefore, the number of alcoholics.

To return to this attitude business, I think it is crucial, if you are going
to reach the alcoholic. I have often said that alcoholics are like children
and dogs. They feel what you feel. They don't hear what you say. You can
approach an alcoholic with an absolutely correct textbook speech. Everything
you say will be exactly right, right down the line, but what the alcoholic
is listening for is how you feel toward him. Is there a hint of hostility, a
hint of contempt? Remember, most alcoholics have had considerable rejection
in their lives, considerable misunderstanding around them. They feel
rejected. Usually by the time they get to you who are counselling them, they
feel rejected indeed. They are looking for more rejection in you, and you
can't conceal it if it is there somewhere. You may not know it yourself, but
the alcoholics will know it. They will pick it up every time, and they just
won't be back. You will have lost them. This may set them back years,
because if they have arrived at the point of going to see anyone,
particularly their pastor, this is a big step forward. It can be a
tremendously important thing that they should make such an effort, that they
should make such a contact, that they should go to somebody, even though
they may be bringing you a lot of lies.


The Alcoholic and Sanity

Here again I think we need a little correction of some of our thinking on
this. In the first place, I don't think the alcoholic tells lies for anybody
else. I think the alcoholic tells lies for his own sake. I think that deep
in the heart of the person who has lost control over drinking, however early
it is, there is a real terror that he has lost his mind, that he is truly
insane. And I don't mean in the temporary sense that occurs with deep
intoxication, which all of us who are alcoholics know all too well. No, I
think here they are so terrified that they have really lost their minds that
they try to explain to themselves why this keeps happening. They will go to
incredible lengths to make an explanation.

I think that the lies are more of an explanation. I don't like the word
"rationalization" because that implies a willful and deliberate thing, and I
don't really believe that it is often that. It is a frantic effort to
reassure themselves.

Obviously if they can get other people to believe it, this bolsters their
own belief that they are all right, that this terrible thing is not
happening to them, that it isn't that bad.

I also think that on certain occasions they tell lies because other people
expect them to, and I believe most people do expect this.

We had our annual meeting in New York last week, and a research project was
reported on. It was a follow-up study of alcoholics from the State Hospital
in Maryland. They wanted to know, among other things, whether the histories
the alcoholics gave of themselves when they came in — they weren't all
voluntary; some were committed — bore any relation to the truth. And they
found to their amazement that the alcoholics were highly reliable, that in
most cases what they told about themselves and their past and what had
happened to them, was right; they had told the truth.

I think we can get hung up on this lying bit, and I think, furthermore, that
it affects the attitude of the person who is trying to help. And if it
affects the attitude of the person who is trying to help, it affects the
attitude of the person who is to be helped. This is another thing that we
are apt to forget, and that I think is crucial in counselling. You know that
most of us spend 90% of our time reacting to other people. Oh, we do a
certain amount of initiation, a certain amount of acting which is entirely
our own and bears no relation to other people, but a great deal of our time
we are reacting to other people. Stop and think about it, and you will see
what I mean. This is also true of the alcoholic, who after all is a human,
remember. He is a member of the human race, even if he doesn't think he is,
and even if some people in the human race don't think that he is or don't
think he ought to be anyway. And he will react to everything that you say
and do.

Your job, when you are counselling, is to see that his reactions are
positive and constructive, that you do not frighten him to death, that you
do not talk down to him from the mountain top. And I think it is
particularly hard for the clergyman. Remember that in everybody's mind, and
certainly in our country, which is supposed to be a Godly country (we do
have "In God we Trust" on all our coins, you know; it is a motto of these
United States), the clergyman is somebody up there. The clergyman is the man
of God; the clergyman is special; the clergyman is holy; the clergyman is
good. And here is this individual who usually feels less than the dirt
beneath anybody's feet. Filled with self-misgiving, self-hate, self-fear, he
is going to the symbol of good and God. He expects to be talked down to from
the mountain top. He expects this person really to feel too good to want him
around and, all too often, that is just what the clergyman feels.


Understanding is Important

Now the alcoholic is waiting for this; so even the tiniest tinge of
preaching down from a mountain top to this poor little man down in the abyss
is magnified in that individual's reactions into a real barrier that he can
not overcome. He can't give, he can't talk, he can't feel free, he can't let
himself be helped.

I am not saying, although I do think this plays a part, that it is necessary
to be an alcoholic to have the right attitude towards another alcoholic, but
it sure helps. The person who has been through it knows perfectly well he is
not up on a mountain top, and can reassure the alcoholic pretty quickly that
he was right down in that abyss too. And he knows just what it feels like,
and he got just as dirty, and he can do it in a way that is believed,
believed here in the heart, not just up here in the head.

I do not believe that only alcoholics can do this, because I have known
professional people who could do it equally well. I myself am the product of
one. I don't know whether this Conference ever heard Dr. Harry Tiebout
speak. If you didn't, I am sorry, because he died two weeks ago, and I think
he is one of the greatest losses to this field since Dr. E.M. Jellinek left
us.

Dr. Tiebout happened to be my psychiatrist. He is the man who forced me into
AA. He is the man who understood AA before I did, and brought me to a
recognition and an understanding and an acceptance of it. And here was a man
whom I had been looking down my nose at for a good year while I was under
treatment, because he didn't like to drink. I didn't see how he could expect
to talk to me.

In fact, I told him once that I just thought he was an old spoil sport. He
didn't like it, so he didn't want anybody else to enjoy it. This man had a
real understanding of the alcoholic. He could talk to the alcoholic in terms
the alcoholic could hear and could accept. And he was not alone. There are
many people across the country, and many of them are the clergy of many
denominations.

Although I must say in my travels, which are extensive, and my knowledge of
what is going on in many communities around the country, it is frequently a
Catholic priest who is the one who is the warm wise counsellor for many
alcoholics in that area, and not necessarily, by any means, an alcoholic
priest.

So, I do believe that this attitude is possible. And I personally think it
should be possible for a Christian, for a man of God, who should have
learned something about humility, about caring for others, his flock, and
all mankind in his flock. So I feel very strongly that the clergy are a
tremendously important group in dealing with alcoholism, because I think,
very often, the family will go first to their pastor when there is trouble
at home. It may not be the alcoholic himself or herself who goes first, but
if the situation is handled right, and if the family can learn a little
about what alcoholism is, and about this business of the alcoholic reacting
to behavior, the thinking and words of others, then the situation can be
changed to the point where the alcoholic himself or herself will go.

And this is when it becomes crucial how the counsellor, be he
clergyman or not, handles the situation. The matter of attitude is
absolutely basic. If you don't have this, then it doesn't matter how many
techniques you use, they aren't going to work. You have not been able to
establish contact; you have not been able to communicate; you have not been
able to establish rapport, and until those are established, it doesn't
matter what else you do.

Let me tell you one thing that I think was a great contribution. A good many
years ago at one of the refresher courses at Yale, I was spending a lot of
time with Father Ray Kennedy. He was also there at the refresher course, and
he was very much excited. "You know," he said, "I have discovered something
that I think may be my major contribution to the field of alcoholism. And I
want to tell you about it."

It seems that in Syracuse there was a very wealthy Catholic family where the
wife and mother was an alcoholic, a pretty bad one. There was plenty of
money there, and there was a great deal of recognition of the stigma,
because this was a socially prominent family. So she was constantly being
shipped away to high priced sanatariums, or high priced doctors somewhere
else; she would come back and be all right for a while, and then she would
go back to drinking.

She would never admit that drinking was her problem. She was always very
nervous, having a nervous breakdown, or something else. In other words, she
was doing this so-called lying that is so much talked about in alcoholics.
Eventually, the husband and father went to Father Kennedy and he said, "You
know, she has tremendous respect for you." He was a professor in LeMoyne
College there and a man of considerable stature. "Would you come and talk to
her."

So Father Kennedy went over to talk to this woman. And she launched into her
usual series of denials that she had a problem with drinking, saying that
that wasn't it, it was a lot of other things, and he got a little
exasperated since he was getting nowhere fast. Then he said, "Why do you
have so much difficulty in admitting that you have alcoholism?"

She said, "What did you say?"

He said, "Why do you have so much difficulty admitting that you have
alcoholism?"

"I have alcoholism?" she said. "Why didn't somebody tell me?"

Father Kennedy is a Jesuit, as you all know, and they are pretty astute in
the convolutions of the human mind, and he recognized something immediately.
If you say to somebody you are an alcoholic, you are pointing the finger of
blame, saying, "You did it." If you say to somebody, "You have alcoholism,"
this could have come up from behind and grabbed them when they weren't
looking. They didn't necessarily do it to themselves.

And he felt that where you could remove that kind of guilt, you open the
door to constructive help.

That is precisely what happened with this woman. She got well. She joined AA
and recovered. And he said, "I believe this may be my contribution. I would
like to suggest that the National Council, in speaking and writing, adopt
this way of talking. Instead of saying there are so many alcoholics, say
there are so many people with alcoholism, or so many Americans with
alcoholism. Instead of saying someone is becoming an alcoholic, say someone
is developing alcoholism. You say it is a disease, why don't you begin using
the same terminology you use about other diseases?"

You don't automatically say one is a cardiac. You say one has heart disease.
And this is true of all illnesses.

We have attempted to do this in the 10 years or so since Father Kennedy made
this suggestion, and I believe that it has had an impact. I believe that it
has enabled a lot of people to get to AA. As he said, "It lets them save
face in their own minds." And I know perfectly well that one of the barriers
to successful helping of the alcoholic is the load of guilt that the
alcoholic is carrying.

This is even truer with some groups than others. It has been my experience,
and I have talked with a lot of you, that the priest who develops alcoholism
has a bigger load of guilt than anyone else. And it often can be an
effective barrier against help.

I think that anything that we can do to lift the load of guilt, since it is
a barrier to recovery, we should do, and I think that much can be done in
the counselling session to lift it.


The Alcoholic Suffers

We don't have to say that everything you did while you were drunk is just
dandy. It wasn't. And the alcoholic knows that really better than anyone
else.

The alcoholic has suffered — and this is something that many people don't
realize — more intensely from remorse and shame than anybody on the outside
can ever imagine. We don't need to hammer them over the head with guilt.
They can create more than outsiders ever dreamed of. Their burden of guilt
is greater than any outsider will ever realize, and it is our job, if we are
counselling, if we are trying to help, to remove any possible barriers to
recovery.

The second thing that I want to talk about today is something that was
brought to my attention a good many years ago, when I had a young man
working for me whose name was Denis McGenty. I don't have to tell you he was
a Catholic. And he was quite a guy. He was a member of AA, and he was a real
artist with the words. He was a spellbinder. Denis was a sociologist. But
his drinking had interfered and he never got his Ph.D. And he began talking
about it, and thinking about it while he was working for me. One day he was
discussing various subjects that he might take for his doctoral
dissertation, and he said, "You know, I have got a wild idea that I would
really like to try. I think most alcoholics are saints manqué. They are
people who have all the qualities and qualifications for becoming saintly
and somehow it gets misdirected. And it is one reason that they get caught
in this toil, this vicious circle that they go around and around in. I
believe that most alcoholics of whatever denomination have been seeking God
in their own way through their drinking. In fact, though they have taken the
path that is leading them away from Him, that isn't what they had in mind."

And, indeed, it is sometimes true that an episode of drunkenness can be a
startling experience just like an experience with LSD, which can even
resemble a spiritual experience.

As a matter of fact, many years ago, and this was after Denis and I had been
discussing this idea, I read an issue of a magazine that a friend in
California sent to me called "Vedanta." In it was an article by Aldous
Huxley entitled "Transcending Down." He talked about mankind's efforts over
the thousands of years to find outside means for transcending, for achieving
a spiritual experience, for achieving a higher consciousness. We know of
many tribes in many parts of the world that use various drugs for this
purpose. And some have used alcohol for this purpose.

It is not impossible that the excessive use of alcohol has some kind of
relationship to this deep-seated search for God, for a feeling of God, not
just an intellectual acceptance of God.

Now I am saying this on purpose because I believe there is something true in
this, and I want you all to realize something that most of you probably
know. The alcoholic is frequently characterized as a dependent person, an
individual who must have something to lean on. You have heard reference made
to the glass crutch. That is one of the best descriptions of alcohol as
something to lean on, a glass crutch that can shatter, that has no real
strength, that is fragile. Alcoholics are using it as a crutch; they are
leaning on it. And very often when they go to someone for help, they become
extremely dependent on that individual for at least a period of time.

I heard a psychiatric social worker, who was a really good one and very
effective with alcoholics, describe it when somebody complained to her at a
professional meeting that she let her patients stay dependent too long. "We
certainly do. We take their hands when they come in. We hold their hands,
and when we let go, we let go finger by finger."


Give the Alcoholic Time

It takes time for the alcoholic to be independent again, to learn not to be
dependent on anything that comes his way on which he or she can lean.

Now this dependence, this leaning toward dependence, if you like, (and I am
not certain that it is confined to alcoholics, I think this is true perhaps
of mankind) can be used constructively. The goal of therapy in my opinion,
and it certainly is the goal in AA and it would be your goal as priests, is
to make these people that come to you God-dependent. When the alcholic comes
to AA, the God business, as you frequently hear it referred to in AA
meetings, is not crammed down his or her throat, at least not usually.
Sometimes it is and in some places it is not. But very often the resistance
is so great that it is again a hurdle to recovery which the alcoholic might
not be able to get over. So the newcomer is asked merely to keep an open
mind about spiritual matters, about God; to listen, to stay sober, to do
such things as he can within the AA program. And if he keeps an open mind,
we know full well that he will become God-dependent, because that is what AA
is.

AA is a way of becoming God-dependent. Successful AAs are God-dependent.

If the clergyman who is counselling alcoholics can't see that this is indeed
part of his business and can't borrow some of the techniques that have
brought the active alcoholic into sober God-dependence, then he isn't a very
good clergyman.

I do agree that not every one, merely because his collar is turned around,
is automatically a good counsellor for alcoholism, any more than a
psychiatrist, because he has a degree in psychiatry is a good therapist for
alcoholics. Some are, some aren't. Not every member of AA is equally good at
12th step work. Some people come into AA and they try awfully hard, but that
is just not their work; it makes them unhappy and uncomfortable, and they
don't do a good job. You often find them doing other things in AA, being
active around the clubhouse, making talks, functioning as a member of AA,
yet not spending too much time on 12th step work, because they learned they
did not have the touch, they didn't have the real ability. They have all
done it, they had to do it to find out, but I don't think people should
persist in an area where they don't take to it naturally, and where they are
notably ineffective. And I think this is just as true of the clergyman as it
is of the AA member, or of psychiatrist, or social worker, or psychologist,
or anyone else.


The Role of the Clergy

Just as some people are natural born leaders, some are natural born helpers;
they seem to know instinctively what to do and what to say. They seem to
have such right attitudes, they automatically establish a rapport without
even thinking about it. They are just made that way. Not everybody is,
unfortunately. Now, for the clergyman who is not a 100% successful therapist
in this field, or counsellor, he must learn how to refer and where to refer.
He must accept his role in the team as, you might say, the front runner, the
case finder.

I have often spoken of the clergy as our front line troops. They are leading
the rest; they are out in front of the army, because they are more likely to
turn up hidden cases and, furthermore, to get a hearing, to be able to talk
to those hidden cases, than any other single group. Every survey that has
ever been made indicates that more people go first to their clergyman when
there is trouble than to any other group and in the field of alcoholism, it
is easy to see why. Remember that as a nation, as a people, we look upon
alcoholism as a 100% moral problem, and have done so for generations. Now
moral problems are the business of the clergy. It was only after they had
failed that we turned to the law and said, all right, let the law take its
course. He is a sinner, and he won't do anything about it. You can't save
him. We will let the law take its course.

I think the clergy has a tremendous role to play as case finders and
referral agents to AA, or to a doctor, or to a clinic, or to an Alcoholism
Information Center. This last is really the bridge; the Alcoholism
Information Center was devised as a bridge between the alcoholics who are
out there unready or unwilling to commit themselves by going directly to AA
or to a doctor or to a clergyman. But they will go somewhere that has got
information on it, because they are not committing themselves; they can go
in and ask for information; they always ask for information for a friend,
you know, and they get quite a lot of information. The people in the
information centers are well enough trained so that they know this, and
almost always they get the admission out of this individual, "Well, I am the
friend," before he leaves. Sometimes it may take two or three visits, but if
this person has brought himself to go there once, and he has been properly
handled, he will come back.

The information center is not a treatment center; it is a referral center.
And many clergymen use their local information centers very heavily. They go
there to inform themselves also, because this is the place where one can go
to find out everything that is currently known about alcoholism and what
resources exist in a community, what doctors are knowledgeable, so that when
an alcoholic is sent to them they don't say, "Oh, you are no alcoholic. Take
just two," or some such silly thing, as far too many doctors are still
doing.

This information is available to you, if you have a Council on Alcoholism,
and it operates an information center. It is available to you just as to any
other citizen, except that the information center is twice as glad to see a
clergyman come in, because we recognize their value to us. We know that
often they are getting in where nobody else can get in. We know that often
they know who the alcoholics are, or where they are, better than anybody
else. And if they will themselves become fully informed, they will be able
to do an outstanding job.
| 2405|2405|2005-05-16 22:23:24|Fiona Dodd|About Marty Mann: "The Sick Person We Call an Alcoholic"|
Mrs. Mann, once a victim of liquor, tells what we can do to help those
who would quit but can't.

By B.J. Woolf

Yale University is sponsoring a new course in education. It is not being
given in the college buildings, but it is one which its sponsors hope will
affect the entire country and foster a better understanding of one of the
most common of all diseases.

The National Committee for Education on Alcoholism, in existence for a year
and a half, is being largely financed by the university. Its primary
function is to change public opinion regarding alcoholism and to aid in
establishing a program for its treatment.

For, according to the executive director of the committee, the drunkard who
rolls in the gutter is as sick as the man suffering from some mortal
disease. The only difference between the two is that there is hope for the
former; with the proper treatment he may become a worthwhile citizen.

And, judging from the executive director herself, one must be tempted to
believe what she says. For Marty Mann, according to her own story, was a
victim of the craving for alcohol. The only reason she did not lie in the
gutter was that she had enough money to have a place where she could be
helpless and sodden. Today Mrs. Mann is an attractive, smart- looking woman
in her thirties. Her clear complexion, her alert blue eyes and her
manner bear no trace of years of hard drinking. As she told me her story she
might have been recounting the trials and sufferings of another. She seemed
detached from the victim whose longings she recalled, as separate an entity
as Dr. Jekyll was from Mr. Hyde.

Moreover, although she said her illness was not cured but arrested, she
expressed no fear of a relapse. And when I asked her to what she attributed
the change, she ascribed it to Alcoholics Anonymous, an organization founded
in 1934 by a former drunkard who had successfully reformed another habitual
drinker. The organization now has nearly 400
chapters in the United States and Canada and claims a national membership of
more than 15,000. Its members are not ashamed of having been sick and are so
grateful for their own recovery that they try to help others, offering at
their meetings friendship, counsel and guidance.

It was not only what Alcoholics Anonymous did or her but also what it has
done for others which influenced Mrs. Mann to undertake her present work.
Now, in addition to directing the activities of the national committee from
its New York headquarters, she tours the country, giving lectures on the
best ways to conquer alcoholism. "The alcoholic," she says, "is a sick
person who can be helped and is worth helping. This is
a public health problem. Apart from the economic aspect - for the alcoholic
is an expense not only to himself and his family but also to the community
at large - the humanitarian side is tremendously important.

"Our committee is endeavoring to teach the public that alcoholics must not
be shunned but helped. We are getting local programs started throughout the
country to make clear the basic facts about alcoholism, the need for a
change in attitude towards those afflicted and the best methods for solving
the problem through community action. We are
assisting in the establishment of local committees, composed of
representative citizens, which will act with our assistance in combating the
evil.

"We are making available literature on the subject, explaining the treatment
of the disease either at home or in clinics, and encouraging the transfer of
alcoholics from jails to hospitals. A man should not be jailed for being
drunk; he should be sent to a hospital to be cured.

"At the present time there are but two clinics for drunkenness in the entire
country; yet alcoholism is as prevalent a disease as either tuberculosis or
cancer and one that, rightly handled, is more easily treated. Our committee
proposes to play the same part in fighting the disease as the tuberculosis
committee does in its field. We are certain that when people in general
become aware of the true state of affairs they will help in stamping out
this evil. Do you realize that there are few places in the whole country
with adequate facilities for the care and treatment of alcoholics?

"In the first place, alcoholism must be correctly diagnosed. One type is the
symptom of an underlying mental ailment. This requires the care of a
psychiatrist and will not yield to ordinary treatment for alcoholism. To
cure it, the mental condition must be cured. On the other hand, so-called
secondary alcoholism responds to simple re-education - that
is, making the patient realize his illness and convincing him that his
physical make-up is such that it is impossible for him to drink in
moderation. This is the method employed by Alcoholics Anonymous. In some
cases this re-education must be accompanied by either medical or psychiatric
treatment and sometimes even by institutional care.

"Until the clinics are established with experts in charge, all drunkards
will be handled in the same way, and there is little chance for their
recovery. But in establishing these clinics we must watch one important
thing: they must not be too closely allied with courts. They must be places
no one need be ashamed to go to, places which to not brand the patients as
lawbreakers. One of the principal aims of our committee is
to encourage the establishment of such clinics throughout the country and to
assist them with all the scientific data on the subject."

As she puffed a cigarette Mrs. Mann went on: "Alcoholism is like greatness.
Some people are born alcoholics, some achieve alcoholism and others have
alcoholism thrust upon them. I belong to the third class, for it was
prohibition that did the thrusting.

"I was born in Chicago and my people were well-to-do. I had everything for
which a girl could ask, including a year at school in Florence. When I came
back to this country I was in many ways just like other girls in my set. The
usual coming-out party, dances and other social events filled my life.

"But America's noble experiment was being tried out and decent young men
thought it was smart to go around with hip flasks. In addition, they would
take us girls to little places where they must be recognized through a
peephole before being allowed to enter. I was young and happy and gay and I
thought it great fun to take a drink.

"One thing I did not realize then - I did not learn it until years later -
was that I, like three-quarters of a million others who are known and
countless others who are not known, may be called allergic to alcohol. We
are the unfortunates who are not immune to it. And there is no Schick test
as there is for diphtheria, which can determine a person's
immunity. One only finds out too late."

She went on to say that there are those who drink in moderation. They enjoy
a certain release after a drink or two. Their tensions are eased and this,
she believes, is a perfectly legitimate reason for their drinking. But they
do not need to drink. A movie, a theatre or a visit to friends serves the
same purpose.

As she continued her story it was hard to believe that she was talking about
herself. She seemed calm and detached. There was humor in her talk and there
was nothing of the "professional dry" in her manner. While apparently a
certain emotional urge brought about her recovery. It was not accompanied by
the jingle of tambourines or the "step-up-and-be-saved" shouts of the
sawdust trail.

She told of her marriage a year after her debut and the discovery that her
husband was an alcoholic. She does not blame him for her drinking, for she
had the disease when she was married. But even his example did not stop her.
Within a year she divorced him and drank more than ever. Then she went to
England to get away from herself.

While she was there her family suffered financial reverses and she had to go
to work. At first she became an interior decorator and later became
associated with a photographic establishment. And all the time she kept
drinking more and more to feel "normal."

"Of course," she said, "like all alcoholics, I made the usual excuses. I
kept saying to myself that I could stop it if I wanted to, and I persuaded
myself that I was drinking for business reasons. But I was miserable and
finally I became convinced that I was going crazy. Strangely enough, I never
once attributed my mental state to my drinking, but was sure that I was
drinking to calm my nerves.

"Things got worse and worse. I became melancholic. Twice I tried suicide and
finally one of my business associates insisted that I go to a sanitarium. I
decided to return to America.

"By this time I was a confirmed drunkard. For weeks I would stay in my room,
too drunk to do anything but lie in bed. Even then I did not attribute my
condition to drink. I was sure that it was my brain and that I would end my
days in a mad house.

"Finally friends persuaded me to go to a sanitarium in Greenwich. I did not
seem to improve much, but one day the doctor handed me a copy of 'Alcoholics
Anonymous.' I glanced through it and became angry. I was not an alcoholic.
This had nothing to do with me. So in a fit of temper I threw the book
across the room. Then something happened which I cannot explain. The book
lay open on the floor and as I picked it up my eyes
lighted on the words, 'We cannot live with anger.' They attracted me and I
sat down with it and began to read. I became interested and suddenly the
truth swept over me. I was an alcoholic. I had an obsession of the mind
coupled with an allergy of the body."

She wrote to Alcoholics Anonymous and began getting letters of encouragement
from them. Then she came to New York to attend their meetings. "Here were
decent people," she said, "all in the same boat as I. They did not look down
on me nor did they lecture me. They did not say they were cured, but that
their illness had been arrested. They did
not touch liquor because they knew if they did they would become sick once
more. They did not suggest that I sign a pledge. All they did was to advise
me to promise myself that I would not drink for twenty-four hours and when
the twenty-four hours were passed to make myself the same promise again."

Their tolerance, their understanding and their desire to help all made a
deep impression upon her. Once or twice she slipped, but when they heard of
it, instead of lectures they gave her sympathy. They themselves had done the
same thing.

Today Mrs. Mann is a firm believer in the efficacy of this system in the
treatment of many cases of alcoholism. She does not attempt to explain why
it works. But she says it is successful in about 80 per cent of the cases.
Undoubtedly group therapy plays an important part. Being able to talk
plainly with no shame to others who have been through the same distress
means a lot. For, she says, no one except an alcoholic can
truly understand the feelings of one.

"Those who have attended our meetings," she said, "who came to scoff have
remained to pray. At these meetings men and women who have recovered get up
and tell their experiences. All of them are intensely sincere in their
desire to help and, while there is no particular religious dogma involved
all of us recognize a power higher than ourselves which has helped us. To
some it is God, to others a spiritual force which cannot be explained."

In carrying on the work of the committee, Mrs. Mann sees Alcoholics
Anonymous playing an important part.

"But," she says, "please don't get the idea that our committee is a
crusading outfit that is going around the country with hatchets trying to
smash up gin mills. Those of us who are alcoholics are personal drys because
we realize that we can't take liquor in moderation. But this does not mean
that we believe that those who can should be deprived of it. For us it is
drunkenness or dryness. For those not afflicted as we are, to drink or not
to drink is not such an important question."

Source: The New York Times Magazine, April 21, 1946.
| 2406|2406|2005-05-16 22:29:08|Fiona Dodd|Skid Row U.S.A. Part 1|
Skid Row U.S.A. Part 1




By WILLIAM J. SLOCUM
Collier's Magazine [Part I], 1949

Perhaps you'll recognize one of your old friends or schoolmates on this tour
through the jungles of our cities. Skid Row is an open jail for men whose
only crime may be poverty or loneliness.
PART ONE OF TWO PARTS:
I have just traveled 8,000 miles, groping my way through the missions,
saloons and flophouses of a dark and sometimes dank jungle known as skid
row. I saw thousands of men, most of them drunk, half of them dirty, and all
of them beaten by life. I talked, drank, ate and sang hymns with them. I had
some small adventures, too, which weren' t very important. What might be
important though, is that I probably met someone you have known.

If you went to Perdu, Villanova, the Haskell School for Indians, or to
Heidelberg in Germany, it may be that I crossed paths with an old classmate
of yours. Or, if you are a doctor of medicine with a wide acquaintanceship,
it is possible my roommate in Kansas City counted you a friend. He and I
shared a six-by-four chamber with a crate full of chickens.

If you are a pampered hambone living in Hollywood, come along with me; step
into your chartreuse convertible, drive down to Fifth Street in Los Angeles
and park outside the blood bank. Sooner or later you' ll see him, and
perhaps recognize him. He gets $4 a pint for his blood, a sum which is
immediately translatable into a couple of gallons of muscatel.

Are you a member in good standing of the Officers' Club? Then, try Congress
Avenue in Houston. You may recognize the man I saw there. He was a
lieutenant colonel, up from the ranks, sir. Or check Clark Street in Chicago
for a West Pointer, or Howard Street in San Francisco for an Annapolis man.

Did you know a linguist? Scout the Madison Street jungle in Chicago. Because
a derelict there surprised a cop by speaking to him in Gaelic. An assistant
state' s attorney got Italian from him. Later he lapsed into Chinese. A
Greek lawyer, called in, said his Greek was good. "Sure, he could get by,"
the lawyer explained. "You see, he doesn' t speak modern Greek much. Just
classical Greek."

This man won' t be hard to find. He' s a Negro.

I traveled 8,000 miles before I met somebody I knew myself. I ran into a
schoolmate on the corner of Stanton Street and the Bowery in New York at
seven fifty one morning. (A saloon on Stanton Street hands out "coffee and "
each morning when the doors are opened at 8:00 A.M.) My old schoolmate was
waiting. He laughed when he saw me and said, "you' re getting fat. You drink
too much beer." Meeting him cost $5.

I started this tour of Skid Row in Chicago where I met Captain Joseph Graney
of the Desplaines Street Police Station. The captain made me a little bet.

"If you' re going all over the country to look at Skid Row I' ll lay you 15
to 5 you meet an old friend," he predicted. "And I' ll tell you something
else. You' ll meet guys who talk better than you, think better than you, and
dress better than you. But you just won' t meet anybody as lucky as you."

The captain was right on all counts.

Alcohol: the Cause or the Result?

Skid Row is the end of the road for thousands of Americans. It is a jungle
of crumbling tenements, twisted shacks and filthy alleys. It is an open jail
for men who are guilty of no greater crime than being poor, or not getting
along with their wives, or just being lonesome. Sure, many drink, but no man
can honestly say whether alcohol is the cause or the result of their
hopelessness.

Skid Rows are at their gaudiest in big cities, but if there are 5,000 or
more people in your town, chances are you have a Skid Row of sorts. You
think not? How about that part of the city where the ne' er-do-wells
gather-a couple of drunks, the old panhandler, the shiftless handy man, the
fellow who never amounted to much after the war (pick your own war) and the
village idiot? That' s Skid Row.

If you live in a big city you know the place. In New York it' s the Bowery,
biggest and cruelest of them all. Chicago has two small Rows plus
bloodstained Madison Street. There is also Howard Street in gracious San
Francisco, the dirtiest, drinkingest and most depressing thoroughfare in the
land. In Los Angeles it' s Fifth Street off South Main where the bartenders
direct you to the nearest blood bank when you run out of money and need some
quick cash.

Proud and booming Houston has its Congress Avenue where the bums try to talk
like Gene Autry, try to look like him, and never spill a grain of tobacco as
they roll their own with quivering hands. In Kansas City, the flophouses on
Main Street and the tin-can shacks on the banks of the Missouri have at one
time or another housed a great Middle Western brain surgeon, a millionaire''
son, a farm equipment engineer who was the best man in his business, and
wonder of wonders, Missouri's leading madam.

Dungarees or blue jeans are the traditional uniform of Skid Row, but a
neatly dressed man excites no interest. He can be a sightseer, a businessman
off on a bender, or one of the highly prosperous gentlemen who run the
saloons, flophouses, barber colleges, pawnshops or two-bit movie houses that
infest the jungle.

The saloons sell 10-cent gin at a profit. Barber colleges are numerous
because there are always plenty of men in the neighborhood who are willing
to shed a few drops of blood in return for a free shave. The two-bit movie
houses provide a comfortable place to sleep despite the endless gunfire
exploding from the sound tracks of the old Westerns that are Skid Row' s
customary cinema fare.

I spent a month on the Skid Rows of the nation and visited all these exotic
hangouts of the unlucky and the unwary. I also visited a quiet old building
on Hillhouse Avenue in New Haven, Connecticut. In it work some of the
brilliant and consecrated men who are devoting their lives to studying
alcoholism. If anything is to be done for Skid Row bums, the whys and
wherefores of drunkenness must first be understood. The men at the Yale
Clinic are trying.

To the vast majority of people liquor is refreshment, a part of good and
congenial living. And wine, always more exotic than the hard stuff, recalls
the warmth, the richness and the good taste suggested by its historic use in
religious ceremony.

That' s what alcohol generally means to most of us. But to the 90 per cent
of the Skid Row population who are chronic drunks, alcohol-in any form-is
the be-all and end-all of their sordid existence. It is pursued as other men
seek fame, fortune or the third blonde from the end.

The other 10 per cent live there for financial reasons, usually because
their earnings or their pensions permit nothing better. Some are ducking
alimony payments or more serious complications. Others simply are misers.
Many old-timers eke out their last days in fleabags because they can fins
companionship there without the regimentation to be faced in the Old Folks
Home.

But the typical Skid Row bum will drink anything. Three Chicago policemen,
planted inside a stolen automobile in a garage, watched one bum tap an
engine and then lie on his back to catch the spouting antifreeze alcohol.
Rubbing alcohol and other forms distilled from wood are diluted or "cut" to
make "smoke," a universal Skid Row drink.

Bay run, hair tonic and canned heat are also widely used. The solid canned
heat is reduced to liquid by putting it in a piece of thin cloth and then
squeezing it. The resulting poison is known among the cognoscenti as a "Pink
Lady."

Death or blindness is the frequent end result of this kind of drinking. As a
minor note in a major tragedy, "smoke," "Pink Ladies" and the like do not
produce the sense of well-being common to accepted alcoholic drinks. They
merely numb, render unconscious and perhaps bring on death.

An oft-used drink along Skid Row, however, is wine. Fortified wines. They
run slightly over 20 per cent alcohol and are therefore about half the
strength of a shot of whisky.

There is a popular police theory across the nation that the "winos" (or
"wineeos" as some Chicagoans call them) will drink fortified wines because
they keep a man drunk longer. The winos disagree. I was told at least a
hundred times in response to my question, "I drink wine because I can' t
afford whisky." When a Skid Row bum does have a stake he drinks hard liquor.

The business of getting drunk starts with the dawn. The haggard man walks
around with one hand outstretched. In that hand is a nickel or a dime. He
hails each passing comrade with "I got a dime." The other in turn sings back
how much he has. They join forces and continue the search for a third and
fourth, or until they have among them enough to get a bottle.

There are certain customs and etiquettes observed. The largest contributor
usually gets the first drink, but after that it is rotation drinking without
regard to contribution. If two men have enough to buy a pint they will do
so, but not three. Three will wait until they have a fourth, and perhaps
even a fifth man, in order to get a larger bottle. A non-contributor often
can get a drink. However, custom limits him to just one, unless he has spent
the night in jail. He may then join the rotation. These gentle rules apply
everywhere except in New York. There, Bowery protocol is: No money, no
drink.

Shelter is a distant second need to alcohol in the Skid Row pattern. Food is
a bad third. Even in the mildest of weather the bum wants a bed or, as he
calls it, a "flop." He knows he must sleep and his need for a bed is one per
cent comfort and 99 per cent sheer survival. If he sleeps in a park or an
alley he can reasonably expect to have his shoes stolen and his pockets
sliced out of his pants. He will be too drunk either to know or to resist.

Many Names for Flophouses

The commonest of Skid Row shelters are the flophouses. The entrepreneurs of
these substandard stables prefer to call their hostelries "lodginghouses."
The clients of the "lodging-houses" prefer such basic descriptive
terminology as "fleabag," "scratch house," "flop-house" and a long series of
accurate, but unprintable names. Prices vary slightly the country over, but
the difference is not great. In general a dormitory cot costs a quarter and
a private room usually sets a guest back about a half dollar.

The private rooms, called "bird cages," are six feet by four feet and
contain a bed and locker. The walls are built at least two feet short of the
ceiling, and wire netting stretches across the top of each cell. This
netting is a ventilating device, and as the evening wears on, ventilation
progressively becomes less of a blessing.

Each floor of a flophouse has a few "suites." These are rooms which have
windows. They rent for 15 or 20 cents more than the regular rooms. They also
have electric lights, a rarity in the majority of lodginghouses.

Many flophouses are patent firetraps. New York and Chicago recently cracked
down on the proprietors. But they remain firetraps, nevertheless.

Anybody (male) gets into a flophouse by plopping down the necessary fee and
muttering a name to the clerk. The clerk tosses the guest a key and
scribbles down his interpretation of the name.

All you get for your money is a flop. If you smoke you get tossed out. If
you have a visitor in your room you both get thrown out. If you make any
noise (Not uncommon when you go to bed with a jug) you get the heave-ho.
Seldom does anybody get his money back when evicted.

Credit regulations are basic the country over. There is no credit except for
the steadiest customers and pensioners. A steady customer is defined as a
man in residence for more than six years. He can expect two nights' lodging
on credit, then out he goes. The pensioner gets a better break simply
because his check comes to the hotel, and the management forces him to
endorse it on the spot. These rare courtesies are likely to be withdrawn
immediately if the recipient forgets to tip the clerk. Strangely, the
itinerant guests invariably tip the clerk a nickel or a dime.

Some Skid Row bums, usually pensioners, live in the same flophouse 15 and 20
years. Two of the Four Horsemen gallop the corridors of the nation' s
fleabags 24 hours a day. The ambulance and the hearse are almost as common
as the patrol wagon which makes regular rounds picking up drunks out of the
gutters.

It is impossible to get statistics on the Skid Row death rate but Chicago,
whose Skid Row population varies seasonably between 7,000 (spring and
summer) and 15,000 (winter), reported last winter that 50 corpses a month
are found in the Skid Row area. Another 50 persons are removed from Skid Row
to die in hospitals.

Missions sometimes have dormitories and "bird cages." The missions are
cleaner and invariably more expensive than a hotel flop. They are not
popular with Skid Row bums because their admittance requirements are higher
than the flophouses.

In many cities there are also dilapidated rooming houses which usually cater
to a reasonably permanent clientele. A lady in Kansas City runs one which
has eight pensioners. None of the guests has seen his check in months. She
handles everything.

When a Skid Row bum is without a flop for the night he "is carrying the
banner." When he is tormented with a hang-over that screams for a nerve
placating drink he is "sick." A bum who says he is "sick" or "carrying the
banner" can be certain of relief from his fellow bums if among them they can
dig up the necessary funds.

Soup and coffee are the staple items of a Skid Row diet. Where prices are
high (40 to 50 cents for a portion of meat scraps, potatoes and all the
bread without butter you can eat) a regular meal comes close to costing as
much as it would in a modest restaurant located in a poor section of town.

Chicago and New York fit this category. But wherever a man can get meat and
potatoes for about a quarter, as he can in Kansas City and Los Angeles, it
sometimes seems to me that he could do better to get his nourishment from
wine. Such restaurants are called "horse markets" by their suspicious
customers.

Chef Earns All He Gets

A restaurant on Madison Street in Chicago pays its Skid Row chef $150 a week
and he is worth it. A strange characteristic of Skid Row restaurants
everywhere is their attitude on cleanliness. They are either unspeakably
filthy or as spotless as a hospital operating room. They all specialize in
the cheapest and most obscure cuts of meat, and their prices vary in each
city.

Missions hand out doughnuts and coffee in the morning and soup and coffee at
night. But when a man eats in a mission he has been broke and hungry a long,
long time. A few saloons give their regular customers coffee and cake in the
morning. And soup is occasionally doled out in the afternoon. But the saloon
usually uses only three or four bowls at a time, so the bums must wait while
the early comers empty and clean a dish.

Free soup and coffee are always a miracle in alchemy. Somehow the cooks
manage to water down the water.

The citizen of Skid Row has the same need-if not the same lust-for money
that distinguishes his more normal brother. And he gets it precisely the
same way. He works for it, has it given to him or he steals it. Skid Row
seems to be evenly divided among those who won' t work and those who can' t
work.

Panhandling is a prime source of revenue in any jungle. Sometimes it' s
plain begging, but more often the price of a pint is earned through devices
such as peddling pencils, shoelaces, and the like. The "lumbermen" or crutch
carrying cripples can beg $30 a day with ease. However, when one has made a
$5 stake he simply calls it a day and heads for a package store. The bums
have learned that, for some reason, a young man on crutches does better
financially than an older person. All begging is risky business because the
police are wont to discourage it with controlled violence, but they dare not
touch a cripple.

Beggars hang together in groups of four of five. Frequently only one of the
gang will work a full day while the others loaf. Each man simply takes his
turn.

Meet Trampdom' s Upper Crust

The gandy-dancers are the Skid Row aristocracy. They work for the railroads,
laying track, grading roadbeds and digging drainage ditches. Their name is
derived from the rhythmical movement they once made as they tamped gravel
and cinders tightly around railroad ties. They worked in pairs, bobbing up
and down. Modern machinery has made this type particular type of work
extinct, but there is other heavy labor easily worth the standard $1.06 to
$1.09 per-hour rate. That shoots up two cents per hour when the gandy-dancer
has a year or more of continuous service, a most unlikely eventuality.

The gandy-dancer usually works from May 1st to November 30th. During this
period he frequently leaves Skid Row and lives in work camps where he must
pay for inferior food and bad lodging. At the typical camp the tab varies
from 65 cents per meal to $2.93 a day. He works six, but pays room and board
for seven days. Many railroads maintain labor offices on Skid Row. Others
contract for help through commissary agents who supply the men and feed and
board them. The agents' profits comes out of the food and lodging bill.

A gandy-dancer is entitled to unemployment benefits from the railroads based
upon how much money he makes. These benefits, plus local unemployment
relief, help see him through the winter, or as he says, "Keep me safe to
Paddy' s Day." A few gandy-dancers, as soon as they hit town, will pay their
flophouse rent in advance for December 1st to St. Patrick' s Day. Most of
them are lucky if they have a nickel left a week after they come in from the
camps. Agents say 70 per cent of the men stay at work throughout the season.

From my own observations, I doubt it by 70 per cent of their estimated 70
per cent.

Many go out to pick fruits or vegetables. This is piecework and those who
have the strength and the necessary manual agility can make as much as $12 a
day. The food is always better than the railroad camps provide and is
frequently excellent by any standards. Labor agencies are numerous in Skid
Row and help supply agricultural workers.

It is an accepted custom for a man to sign on as a gandy-dancer so he will
be shipped close to the Connecticut tobacco fields or the California
vegetable crops. Then he jumps the railroad and justifies it, if he bothers,
because of the bad food and dirty living quarters that seem to be part of
the railroad camps.

When a man comes back from a period of gandy-dancing or an agricultural job
with a couple of hundred dollars in his pockets, he wants a shoeshine. A
bootblack on Kansas City' s Skid Row told me, "I' ve shined shoes that didn'
t have any soles on ‘em. They always throw you a half buck. If they have any
money, they' ll get a shine three or four times a day. I don' t know why but
they all love to get their shoes shined."

The shoes may be polished in a bar- room and often a man who is flush will
leave his wad with the bartender. He may or may not drink it all up in a
night. Obviously no man can drink $200 worth of two-for-a-quarter whisky in
a single evening but there are repeated rounds of drinks for the house. And
the bartender usually keeps tab with equal abandon.

Men who want a day' s work will gather at a rendezvous point in Skid Row to
be picked up each morning by independent truckers. The pay is usually a
dollar an hour and no Skid Row laborer will accept hire from an employer who
insists upon withholding taxes. He wants $8 for eight hours and the trucker
can pay the government anything Uncle Sam has coming. This work is as
unpopular as it is arduous, so four or five men will band together to take
daily turns at working and each day' s $8 is divided among the group that
night.

Most of the handbills distributed in any town are set out by Skid Row
workers. To get around minimum-wage laws, an hour is not used as a unit of
time in this industry. An hour is the duration it takes to distribute a
specified number of handbills. In crowded areas an hour is equivalent to 125
deliveries; medium crowded it' s 100; and sparsely settled suburbs are 75.
Payment in this field seems to work out to around 35 cents an hour for a
day'' work. But it can be a lot less.

The lowest form of Skid Row labor is bottle collecting. Men trudge around
picking up empties which, by a custom which is nation-wide except in New
York, are carefully lined up along the curbs for the convenience of the
bottle-man. He gets a cent and a half for gallon jugs, a cent for quart
bottles and a half cent for pints. And they must be wine bottles, because
whisky bottles by law cannot be refilled.

Brisk Trade with Blood Banks

If you have ever been given plasma or serum you are closer to Skid Row than
you think. Thousands of bums peddle their blood to legitimate banks, many of
which are located in, or reasonably adjacent to, Skid Row. The price for a
pint which is to be reduced to plasma is $4 in California and a little more
in the East.

A blood donor is generally limited to five bleedings a year, but a man can
go broke a lot more than five times during 12 long months. Records are kept,
but identification is a haphazard thing on Skid Row. Arms are examined for
recent punctures and in Los Angeles each donor has the fingers of his left
hand painted with a compound which is not visible unless the hand is placed
under a blue fluorescent lamp. It takes about eight weeks for this solution
to disappear completely. I watched one bank turn away 32 men within two
hours when the lamp showed telltale blue on their fingers. Recently,
however, a Skid Row chemist discovered a solution that erases the stain
within minutes.

Clear-blooded alcoholics from Skid Row make up the largest part of the
nation' s donor population. But their contributions mix easily with those
from church groups giving blood for charity, or from young men who need the
price of a few gallons of gas for an evening date, and from other young men
who need money to buy mike for their babies. The blood banks in Los Angeles
normally hit peak production just before Income Tax Day.

Pensions account for a large, if not the largest, portion of income. Most
pensioners do not draw enough to allow better living standards.

The steel and concrete jungle is heavily populated with remittance men
drawing small monthly checks from relatives and with Army and Navy
pensioners. The retired servicemen are usually as drunk as anybody in the
bar- room, but they are invariably immaculate.

One of the most extraordinary seminars I ever heard started in a Bowery
saloon when one old gentleman complained of his rheumatism and said, "I can
go up to the Old Soldiers Home. But I don' t want to do that yet." He went
on to say, "There' s a law you know. No soldier of Uncle Sam can be a public
charge."

General agreement was voiced and then a bleary old gent said, "You know,
America is the greatest country in the world." This was immediately
acknowledged as gospel by all and sundry and there began a round-table
discussion among a half-dozen down-and-out hulks, each vying to add further
vocal tribute to the land of opportunity.

There are a few women on Skid Row, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps one
explanation is that the weaker sex is made of sterner stuff. Another more
obvious argument is that society just won' t allow a woman to sleep in the
gutter. I saw a cripple fall and split his face wide open in front of
Chicago' s Haymarket Theater and the box-office lady didn' t pause a second
in the job of applying her lipstick. But let a woman doze off in a hallway
and the police station switchboard lights up like a Christmas tree. Almost
invariably the calls are from indignant females.

The female Skid Row consists, obviously, of the bordellos of the land. But
the inmates therein rarely wind up in the gutters. The mortality rate among
prostitutes is high. But so, too, is the marriage rate. And when a girl
finds she has to call quits to such a career she can always go home.

Few Women Among the "Down"

Traveling from New York to California and back, I saw four out-and-out Skid
Row drunks of the opposite sex. I don' t know how many thousands of
alcoholic men I saw. The professional phrase for a bum who has dropped to
the sidewalk is "down." I saw at least 500 males who were down during a
month in the jungle, but just two females.

I did see perhaps 50 women who obviously lived on Skid Row. There are no
flophouses available to them, so they live in tiny rooms. They are
pensioners or beggars. A few shelters for women do exist, but they are
expensive and the tenants are subject to expulsion if, after a 12-hour day
of selling pencils, they so befoul themselves as to have a couple of glasses
of beer.

Although Skid Row is almost completely free of sex, and few females are ever
seen on it, women are a perpetual topic of conversation at the bars and over
the tables in the flophouse lobbies. Almost all Skid Row bums insist that
women put them where they are. At first I shrugged off that theory as an
alibi. After a month of closer listening, however, I would suggest that any
error is in the direction of understatement. In addition to the bums who are
certain that women put them on Skid Row, there are others who unmistakably
were driven there by women and don' t realize it.

To clear up that last statement first: Policemen all over the country told
me to look for the derelict who had been the "youngest son." He was not hard
to find. He was, in fact, everywhere. He was the boy who had stayed home
with Mother while the older brothers went out and got themselves set in
business. When Mother died, the youngest was finally forced into a
competitive world. Perhaps he started at the age of forty-about 22 years too
late.

He stands alone, bereft of his mother' s comfort and with a tight silver
cord still tied around his hands and his brains. Whisky, he soon discovers,
erases his fear, his confusion, and his humiliation. Soon he is on Skid Row.
Quite frequently he is supported by checks from his older brothers who ask
only that he stay to hell away from them.

He himself believes that he' s on Skid Row because he couldn' t get along
with his family back in Des Moines. He' s there, of course, because his
mother didn' t give him the same break she gave his brothers.

"Too Much Mama" May Harm Son

A slight variation of the youngest son who stayed home with Mama is the case
of the only son who did the same thing.

The Yale Plan Clinic is in the throes of conducting a survey which is not
yet nearly complete. But the figures which have so far been compiled carry a
tremendous impact. Mark Keller of the Yale Group has made the following
statement on the basis of what has been learned so far:

"We are making a study on the subject. It is not yet complete but we now
have statistics indicating that 40 per cent of alcoholics are either 'only
children' or ‘youngest.' Also, the more siblings older than the subject, the
more likely he is to appear as an alcoholic." Siblings are brothers or
sisters.

So much for Mama who is, after all, a woman. The most frequently recurring
episode in the Skid Row story goes like this. The Hotel McCoy is the Grand
Hotel of Chicago' s foul Madison Street Skid Row. It has 800 rooms divided
among three floors, each cubicle measuring roughly four feet by six feet.
Rates are 60 cents a day except for the rare rooms with windows. With
ventilation the price jumps to 75 cents.

A handsome automobile halted before the McCoy and one of the two ladies in
it daintily hailed a policeman.

"Officer," she said, "we' re afraid to go in there but we would like to see
Mr. John Jones. Would you ask him to come out?"

The policeman entered and the clerk pointed out Mr. Jones who was quietly
reading a comic book and enjoying a chew of tobacco. "Jones," said the
policeman in the courtly manner of all Chicago cops, "there' s a couple of
babes out there in a big car. They want to see you."

Jones, being on Skid Row and being in the presence of the law, cowered. "Do
I have to go out?"

"Nope. But they' re real rich looking kids. Furs and everything."

"Is there a redheaded old woman with them, Officer?"

"No. Just the two young ones."

Jones smiled and got up. "Okay. Let' s go. Those are my daughters. But if
that redheaded old bag of a mother of theirs is along, I' m running right
back in here."

Jones, Skid Row bum but proud father, went out to meet his daughters. He was
one of the vast army of men who have fled a nagging wife for the delights of
an all-make Skid Row flop and some peace and quiet.

None of the men I met admitted his life had been blighted by a maiden who
spurned his offer of matrimony. Nor did any charge infidelity on the part of
their wives.

But the doting mother, and the nagging wife must take the blame for
thousands who seek escape on Skid Row. Liquor, too, plays a heavy role here,
of course, and no woman can be criticized for objecting if her husband is
perpetually plastered. But, like the chicken and the egg, it would be
interesting to know which came first.

What steps are being taken to wipe out Skid Row-U.S.A.? Next week' s
installment exposes the inadequacies of our programs to help the unfortunate
men who are America' s living dead.

Source: Collier' s, August 27, 1949
| 2407|2407|2005-05-16 22:29:20|Fiona Dodd|Skid Row U.S.A. Part 2|
By WILLIAM J. SLOCUM

Collier's Magazine [Part II], 1949

Within our cities there is a world of living dead where lonely, despairing
Americans seek escape from themselves. The author of this two part article
traveled 8,000 miles to get a close-up of Skid Row, U.S.A. Every city and
town with a population of 5,000 or more has its own human jungle. Crumbling
tenements and filthy alleys mark the end of the road for thousands of
Americans. Part 1 dealt with the way vagrants go about getting a drink, a
flop or an occasional stake. But what is society doing to rehabilitate these
men?

CONCLUSION

A weird little tale was recently unfolded in Chicago that somehow managed to
encompass everything that goes to make up Skid Row, U.S.A. A bum was found
dead in the Madison Street jungle and they carted his body off to the
morgue. His pockets were crammed with identification, so officials were able
to notify a Wisconsin family that their father had departed this world. The
wife and a couple of daughters came on and identified the remains.

The body was taken back to Wisconsin and buried with full American Legion
honors. A $1500 insurance policy was settled and all went well for two
weeks. Then the family received a peremptory note from the morgue giving
them 48 hours to claim Father or he would go to potter's field. The family,
baffled by this development, came running to the Desplaines Street police
station, which has jurisdiction over the Madison Street Skid Row.

Captain Joseph Graney quieted the woman and told them the morgue had
originally made a mistake in concluding the body was that of their father,
and the family had compounded the error by identifying the strange corpse.
While the Captain was talking to the ladies, however, they showed him a
picture of their father, taken a decade before. Captain Graney looked at the
picture and bellowed, "I saw this same guy last night in front of the Star
and Garter. He was plastered. Wait here a minute."

Graney hopped into a squad car. In five minutes he was back, dragging behind
him a very live and reasonably sober gentleman. It was, indeed, Father
himself. As soon as the initial shock had worn off Father spoke. "Fooled
you, didn't I?" he gloated. "You thought I was dead, eh? Sorry to disappoint
you." With that he made a vulgar noise in the direction of his wife and
requested the captain's permission to return to the peace and quiet of his
flophouse.

The possibility of intended fraud is remote and unimportant to this grisly
anecdote which capsules so much of the Skid Roe story. Father did not merely
dislike Mother. He hated her. Father's respectable family and his war record
suggest he had not long been an anonymous alcoholic. Father had recently
been "jack-rolled" while drunk and it is reasonable to suspect that the man
who later died was the one who had picked his pockets. That would explain
how Father's identification papers were found on the corpse.

One drunken derelict preying on another, sudden death and the completely
broken family, these are Skid Row-the American jungle.

In New York, a Bowery tavern owner named Sammy Fuchs made an effort to do
something to help the bums who wanted their relatives to be notified in case
of death. From them he accepted envelopes which the bums numbered and
sealed. Inside they put the names of their next of kin. Sometimes papers to
be forwarded were included. The bums in turn carried little notes on their
person reading: "In case of death tell Sammy Fuchs to open Envelope 17." Or
Envelope 11, or whatever the identifying number would be.

"I sent off dozens of telegrams," Sammy told me. "I never looked at anything
except the address. I know one envelope contained papers which were supposed
to secure a big estate for a Skid Row woman's illegitimate son. She told me
about it before she died and I hope the kid got it. I sent one telegram to a
rich Pennsylvania banker to tell him his son rolled off an East River pier
and drowned."

Early this year burglars broke into Sammy's saloon and carted off the safe
which held the envelopes.

Sammy runs a Bowery saloon that has a dual personality. From 8:00 A.M. to
8:00 P.M. it is just another Skid Row dive. From 9:00 P.M. to 4:00 A.M. it
becomes a sight-seeing mecca for thrill-hungry out-of-towners. The hour
between eight and nine is used to clean the place up and create atmosphere
by lining up prop Bowery characters. After nine o'clock ancient entertainers
sing with great gusto, and a benevolent old man, well into his sixties,
plays the meanest piano I've heard in a long time.

Experiments in Rehabilitation

Sammy has made an interesting experiment in rehabilitating Skid Road
characters the country over. He straightens them out, buys them clothes,
pays a month's rent and gets them a job. He estimates it costs him about
$350 per man to do a complete job. He has experimented thusly 18 times and
claims four of his rehabilitation projects are still off Skid Row.

"You can't let 'em live on Skid Row and expect 'em to stay sober when they
see all their friends drunk," says Fuchs.

Another Fuchs theory-"The only ones who have a chance to straighten out are
the young ones"- is an opinion universally shared by policemen and judges
all over the country. The scientists at the Yale Plan Clinic, where the
problem is being studied carefully, confirm that they young are not beyond
redemption, but in measured academic tones Yale suggests that Sammy, the
cops and the judges are nuts. "A young alcoholic has very little reason to
want to sober up," they point out. "He has never experienced the rewards of
a normal life-family, children and a job."

According to Dr. Robert V. Seliger, first-rate psychiatrist and executive
director of the National Committee on Alcohol Hygiene, Inc., 30 to 40 out of
every 100 alcoholics may be helped back to health by modern psychiatric
treatment. They are sick in the same way that a man may fall ill of
pneumonia, or smallpox, or diabetes.

As Dr. Seliger points out, alcohol itself does not cause alcoholism. To the
millions of Americans who drink regularly or occasionally without letting
alcohol interfere with their lives, liquor is a refreshment, a part and a
symbol of gracious living. But most alcoholics drink to excess seeking
escape from emotional ills.

Missions do what they can to help the sick and despondent on Skid Row. They
are everywhere there, beckoning all with signs of gold and blinking neon.
But to the men on the rows, they represent only a place a man can get a
soup, coffee and bread.

I entered a mission on Sunday afternoon. Services had started, but I was
greeted by a preacher. "Welcome, brother," he said. "Get yourself a book."

I got a hymnal and took my place among 20 other men. Fifteen were Skid Row
bums, clean, hung-over, shaking and miserable. The other five were
well-dressed by any standards. Four were businessmen who had been saved from
Skid Row. One was a visiting clergyman who had come to listen to the sermon.

We sang three hymns. Then the businessmen rose in turn to tell their
stories. A sermon followed this, and when it was ended, the preacher asked
whether anyone felt called upon to speak up. The room was redolent with the
aroma of hot soup and coffee, and the hungry men were concentrating on that.
There was no thought of talk.

We sang three more hymns and then it was time for grace. The minister said
it, trying not to look self-conscious as he gazed down at the bowed and
frowsy heads of his sick and hungry congregation.

After that the men rose and formed a line for a tin cup of soup, a half cup
of coffee and a slice of bread. They gulped the food and left hurriedly.

Alcoholics Anonymous Gives Aid

Hard-working members of Alcoholics Anonymous are another force for good
along Skid Row. Faith is especially mentioned in six of the 12 steps of the
program for recovery the organization uses.

Alcoholics Anonymous is everywhere, in the jails, the courtrooms and the
hospitals. Sometimes A.A. members are received with open arms by officials,
sometimes they are brushed off as tiresome nuisances. They keep insisting
that a drunk doesn't belong in jail, and that, when he does get to a
hospital, he should receive the same care he might expect if he were a
well-to-do citizen.

New York City is a case in perfect point, illustrating the conflict in
official attitudes. At Bellevue Hospital A.A. are sometimes brushed off by
some busy and impatient doctor. "I didn't spend half my life studying
medicine merely to take care of weak-willed drunks," he will complain. But
at Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn, run by the same City of New York,
A.A.'s are welcomed Its members and interested doctors sit in joint
committee to see how they can better cooperate in helping the penniless
alcoholic.

The district attorney of San Francisco bows a reverent head in the direction
of the "South of Market" chapter of A.A. which works in Skid Row. In Los
Angeles, A.A. teams of two patrol the Lincoln Heights court 24 hours a day
and any Skid Row bum who needs a cup of coffee or a double-header of rye to
stave off the d.t.'s gets them and no questions. The "Alinon Club" in Newark
is fighting the good fight in a rough part of the country. "Alinon" has to
its credit the rare case of a woman who spent 16 years on Skid Row and has
been "dry" two years now.

In New York City the Twelfth Step House at 53 Barrow Street has turned an
apartment house basement into a refuge for any man or woman who is willing
to walk the short distance from Skid Row. He can get anything that a group
of human beings who are themselves pretty poor can give him: food, a suit of
clothes, a job and that precious thing, an understanding ear.

Twelfth Step House was started by an A.A. who wanted to do something for
what his group calls "low-bottom drinkers." A "high-bottom drinker" is an
alcoholic who has a little money, a home and some friends to help him
through his travail. A "low-bottom" is one who has nothing. Last January
this man, who is not rich, paid $50 to cover a month's rent on a basement
which had been unoccupied since prohibition.

Other A.A.'s pledged one, two, or five dollars a month to keep it going. It
is open from noon to midnight. A Skid Row drunk walks in and he is soon
talking to an A.A. who can truthfully top any story of degradation or
misfortune the bum can tell about himself. He is given coffee and food, and,
if he volunteers a request for help in sobering up, a silk-smooth operation
begins.

First he has to "sweat it out." That's a three or four day process during
which a man gets sobered up first and then goes through the agonies of the
dammed, fighting against a nervous system which screams for a drink. While
he is "sweating it out," A.A. veterans of the same sort of personal hell
talk to him, listen to him, walk with him through the night and even buy him
a double-header if their expert eyes tell them his system must have a little
alcohol. When sleep comes at last he is taken to a flophouse and his new
friends buy him a night's lodging.

When the "sweating out" period is finished, the man gets a suit of clothes
and a job. Twelfth Street House has an arrangement with a half-dozen
hospitals to hire men it recommends. Since January more than 150 Skid Row
drunks have been straightened out and returned to work through its efforts.

A.A. flatly refuses to compile statistics about cures it has effected
because its axiom is, "An alcoholic is cured only when he is buried."

Every night 35 to 50 former Skid Row bums can be seen at Twelfth Step House.
They sit around talking or listening to impromptu speeches-academic
discussions of the problems involved in fighting alcohol. Talk and
companionship are the very heart of the A.A. technique.

Everybody helps everybody else. I saw an old man hustle in and survey the
room. He spotted a young fellow who was with a group which was heatedly
discussing the effects of "sneaky-pete," a generic term for fortified wines.
He nodded the boy away from the group and excitedly whispered, "there's a
dishwashing job open up on Twenty-third Street. I couldn't take it on
account of my bum arm. But I told them you'd be right up. Six bucks." The
boy got his cap and was gone in half a minute.

Employed Make Contributions

No working member of Twelve Step ever enters the place without a couple of
loaves of bread and perhaps a half bologna under his arm. They all try to
contribute to the kitty, but one of the few rules of the place is "No
contributions from men working one-night stands. Okay from those steadily
employed."

The policeman is the Skid Row bum's mortal enemy; he is as frequently his
only friend. My own experience with policemen in the Skid Rows of America
ran along the same line. In Chicago, Captain Graney told me, "We don't want
you writing about Chicago's Skid Row. But you're going to write about it
anyway, so we'll answer every question you ask us. Of course we're ashamed
of our Skid Row, but if you can figure out an answer, you're smarter than I
think you are. We give the bums all the protection we can. It's not enough,
I guess. Still, if you assigned a cop to every bum on Skid Row, the bums
would still get in trouble."

In San Francisco, Captain Leo Tackney of the Southern Station glowered at me
and said, "I'm not going to tell you anything and neither is any of my men.
It's bad for San Francisco. If you go into Skid Row, you go at your own
risk. If you take any pictures, you'll do it at your own peril." I told the
captain that the pictures would be taken. I also assured him I was going
through his Skid Row.

Three separate times I walked all over San Francisco, rated by many as
America's most charming city, always with the feeling I was being followed.
I lost that feeling only after I dropped in for a chat with District
Attorney Pat Brown. The D.A. agreed that Skid Row was bad for San Francisco
but he also felt it would be much worse if people stopped trying to do
something about it.

I later learned why Captain Tackney was so irate. It seems they are making a
movie about Skid Row-U.S.A. and the producer of the film has chosen Captain
Tackney's precinct as the locale of the epic. It is a choice with which no
man would quarrel.

I tried one more police department. That was in New Orleans. When I had
finished my conduced tour in that city, I was stumped.

The first day in town I had asked kind and expert friends to tell me where
New Orleans' Skid Row or rows were. They told me and I made arrangements to
visit the jungle the next day in the company of a police department expert.
However, there was not a bum to be see anywhere, not even in the jails.
Later I visited the same areas unaccompanied and found all the bums I ever
wanted to see. I asked them where they had been all afternoon. They said it
had been real hot, so they stayed off the streets.

No young man ever took up police work in anticipation of a career that would
be spent chaperoning Skid Row bums. It is not surprising, therefore, that
those assigned the task sometimes go about their duties with a maximum of
muscle and a minimum of persuasion. But for every cop who makes enemies of
the men he is supposed to help, there are two like Chicago's Steve Wilson
and Los Angeles' William Shurley. And there is the immortal "Book-Him" John
McGinnis, also of Chicago. "Book-Him" John is now relieved of his arduous
Skid Row chores and works with children, but his name is still revered on
the nation's Skid Rows.

When a bum put in a hitch as a gandy-dancer with the railroad-the name
traces back to the jiglike step used in tamping down the track beds-and
quit, got fired, or finished his unwelcome job, he headed back to Chicago.
He might have a couple of hundred dollars in his pocket and the unhappy
knowledge that he would blow it all in a night if left to his own customs
and habits. So he would seek out McGinnis and turn over the major part of
his money to him. "Book-Him" John doled it out until it was gone, and after
that John was always good for a touch.

The officer never lost a nickel through these loans. Usually the debtor paid
off at the first opportunity. But id he went off on the railroad again or
took to the hobo jungles, John would pass the word along that he was in
default. The debtor would hear about it from every Chicago resident who
crossed his trail. And if he found himself overlong in arrears, he also
found himself barred from the mulligan stew, the bottle and the
companionship of his fellow hobos or gandy-dancers.

McGinnis was a one-man warrant squad on Skid Row. If any flop resident was
wanted, John only had to pass the word. "Tell McCarthy to get over to the
station house. Somebody is looking for him." "Somebody" could be a relative,
a friend, an insurance adjuster or even a warrant. It didn't matter. If
McGinnis sent out the word, McCarthy came ambling into the police station
within an hour.

Every morning, when the unhappy contents of a jail's drunk tank were lined
up before a judge, McGinnis would stand at the court's elbow. Theoretically
he was there to identify the bums, but in practice he would make
recommendations. "Ah now, this is a nice lad, Judge," John would say as a
shivering hang-over stood before the bench. "A nice lad. He's been working
and only been on Skid Row a couple of days. Let him go, Judge."

The next might hear, "Judge, this fellow's a nice lad but he's been laying
around six months. He needs a doctor, Judge. Send him away for a while."

But John's favorite expression and the basis for his nickname was, "Now
here's a lad been laying about drunk for six months. But a nice lad. Let me
take care of him, Judge. I'll book him." John would wave the man aside until
the court recessed. Then the man, along with several colleagues, would be
shepherded to a group of railroad labor representatives and John would
persuade them to book the derelicts for gandy-dancing jobs.

Chicago's Steve Watson is in the McGinnis mold. He's in court every morning
with his advice. 90 per cent of it compassionate. I did hear him say to
Judge Edward Pluczak, as one man came up for sentencing, "Judge, this is one
of the best thieves this side of the Mississippi." The man got the
equivalent of 30 days when he sullenly refused an offer to rebut Watson's
estimate.

Steve walks his beat amid an endless salvo of greetings. When his charges
attempt to shake hands, as they frequently do, Steve shows them his gloved
hands and begs off with some excuse about a skin ailment.

I saw a young man laid out cold on Madison Street. He looked dead to me.
Steve bent over him, applied some pressure behind his ears, and bloodshot
eyes opened in an ashen face. The man managed a pathetic smile, "Hello
Steve," he said. "Please help me up, will you?"

In Los Angeles, William Shurley has earned the confidence of his charges. He
will say to a man, "You're pretty bad off. I want go to go in. Stand over by
that lamppost until the wagon comes by." The man will stagger to the
lamppost and wait until the patrol wagon, making its endless rounds,
appears.

Out-of-Bounds for Bums

Most cities have off-limits areas for bums. The Skid Row resident who
crosses Texas Avenue in Houston does so at his own peril; or he can expect a
good clout if found panhandling around New York's Times Square. He is
supposed to stay "south of the slot" in San Francisco; and in Kansas City he
passes the Kay Hotel at his own risk. Boston cleans out its Skid Rows by
making periodic promises of a year in Bridgewater for vagrants and drunks
who are apprehended.

Some police departments attempt to enforce a "keep-moving" policy. I heard a
crippled beggar, of extraordinarily handsome features and cleanliness, plead
with a judge to let him off. "I've got relatives in Detroit and I'm going
back to see them."

The judge said, "You're not going back to Detroit and you know it. If you
do, Hitler and Mussolini will get you." The men who were lined up behind the
cripple smiled. The cripple himself grinned one of those
"you-ain't-just-talking-judge" grins. "Hitler and Mussolini" are a couple of
Detroit policemen who have dedicated themselves to keeping Detroit's Skid
Row population as fluid as possible.

No city overpatrols its Skid Row. Most municipalities seem to ignore their
jungles. There is a universal theory among law-enforcement men that there is
little or no crime on Skid Row. They couldn't possibly be more wrong.

The major criminal is the "roller," "jack-roller" or "mugger." He is the
same man operating under a different name in different parts of the country.
He steals shoes, shirts, pants, and even the underwear of his victims.
Usually prey is too drunk to know, but sometimes he attempts to resist and
is hurt. I staked a battered old wreck in Kansas City, but when he saw me go
to my pocket he said, "I'll meet you around the corner. If those guys see
you give me anything, I'll get jack-rolled."

Almost any man found dead in Skid Row without a bullet or a knife in him
died of "natural causes" so far as the cops are concerned. Public statistics
keep tab on murders and since police efficiency is judged by those
statistics, the cops try to avoid any additional unsolved homicides among
the nonentities of Skid Row.

Before going into the details of how murder is committed on Skid Row, it is
necessary to understand that the resistance and physical condition of most
alcoholics is tremendously substandard. They hurt easily, they cure slowly
and assistance comes tardily if at all. Nobody knows whether a man curled up
in the hallway is suffering from too much sherry or a cracked skull.

Fist fights are common on Skid Row. Bottles make excellent weapons and they
are everywhere. Bartenders and flophouse bouncers are busy men who
frequently have only enough time to practice a bit of rudimentary jujitsu to
invoke order and then "leave 'em lay." And of course the "jack-roller" takes
many a life for a pair of shoes or the nickel and three pennies to be found
in a bum's pocket.

Police Keep Watchful Eye

In most cities a patrol wagon, manned by policemen called "ragpickers,"
makes regular rounds collecting the pugnacious and the man so drunk he may
stagger into a moving trolley car or truck. Bums who are sleeping it off are
rarely bothered, unless they have bedded down in front of the chamber of
commerce. New Orleans sends out the wagon on call. The Second Precinct
there, covering the beloved French Quarter, speaks proudly of an elderly
client who regularly telephones and says, "Sergeant, send the wagon for me.
The usual corner."

New Orleans and Los Angeles give the pick-up bum a chance to sleep it off
before subjecting him to formal arrest. He gets a flat six hours. If he can
make the 5:00 A.M. "kick-out" line and sign a false-arrest waiver, he is
freed. In most other cities he must face the judge.

The police, the magistrates and the victims all agree that this is an
expensive and useless procedure excused only by the fact that a man in the
drunk tank is less likely to be injured.

Drunk tanks are the same the country over and they are shameful. Most of
them have no facilities beyond bare, cold floors. The police claim they
would be delighted to install cots and rudimentary plumbing, but the
condition of the prisoners makes such sharp and unyielding objects a serious
menace.

When court convenes, the night's haul is herded into a special corner of the
room. The non-Skid Row citizens who seek justice are separated and their
cases, usually domestic quarrels and landlord-tenant disagreements, are
heard first. Then the Skid Row group is lined up before the bar.

The air of frustration that hangs over the courtroom defies description. The
long weaving line of hang-overs is wrapped in hopelessness; the judge is
baffled; so too are the prosecuting attorneys and the police. Everybody is
licked and knows it.

Names are called and men answer. The old-timers-a history of 200 arrests
calls for no undue interest-are resigned; the youngsters are frightened; and
the rare gentleman from the proper side of the railroad tracks is confident
he can talk himself free, even though he looks about pprehensively in fear
that he may see an old acquaintance, such as his wife.

A few of the old-timers shrug, plead guilty and hope for the best. Most of
them give it a bit of battle: "I've got a job waiting for me, Judge," or,
"I'm getting out of town tonight, Your Honor," or "I'm a hard working man,
Judge. I just slipped a little last night." If the judge has enough
interest, he will ask the hard worker to show him the palms of his hands.
Calluses will support his story.

Frequently a man says, "Please, Judge, give me 30 days." Invariably it is to
get hospital treatment for wounds or infections. Occasionally it's a
desperate effort to get sober or something to eat. But generally the men are
frantic to avoid jail.

It's a dreary procession spotted occasionally with high drama. I heard the
father of a young newspaperman plead with a judge, "We have $15,000 to
assure my boy complete medical and psychiatric treatment, Your Honor."

Before the Judge could answer, the boy spoke, "Father, please. You know and
I know it's just a waste of money." His father left, weeping, as the boy
took another 30-day sentence.

A twenty-one-year-old ex-G.I., hungover and petrified, answered all
questions in a quavering voice, his head hanging. He was asked what kind of
a discharge he possessed. His head came up, he straightened and his voice
was firm as he answered, "An honorable discharge, sir."

In Los Angeles the court told a young woman who had been picked up several
times, "I'm going to send you to jail to sober up."

"No, Judge, please don't do that," she begged. "I'm in Sister Essie's show
tonight. I've got a big part. I'm a very important angel." The important
angel was freed to take her place in the religious pageant at Sister Essie's
Skid Row mission.

Judge Edward Pluczak, of the Desplaines Street Municipal Court in Chicago,
looks like a tough Army sergeant, but he is surprisingly gentle. He told me,
"I'm sick and tired of meeting boyhood friends, college pals and members of
the Chicago bar whom I once idolized. Sending these people to jail doesn't
do any good. What I need is a non-prison farm where they could go to sober
up. Nobody ever gave up liquor in a cell block."

San Francisco's realistic district attorney, Pat Brown, is in complete
agreement with Judge Pluczak. Brown's theories are particularly apropos
because his bailiwick is the drinkingest city in the United States,
according to surveys published by Brown's own office. "I want a half million
dollars to set up a rehabilitation center that is not a jail," Brown told
me. "I want to stop the practice of tossing alcoholics in jail or freeing
them to get stiff all over again. We won't straighten out very many, but if
we can rehabilitate 10 per cent, the experiment will be cheap." All four of
San Francisco's newspapers support Brown. Alcoholics Anonymous, Stanford and
California universities are behind him, too.

Brown laughed and said, "I'll probably never be elected dogcatcher after
saying this, but they're doing a magnificent job across the bay in Oakland."

Brown isn't the only one with an eye on the Oakland project. They are
watching iy at Yale, too. And they are watching it wherever municipal
officals do not feel that Skid Row is something that should be kicked under
the rug and ruled out of public discussions.

California Experiment Promising

Alameda County, which is Oakland, has rented an unused military installation
for $1 a year. It is called the Santa Rita Rehabilitation Center and covers
3,300 acres. Alcoholics are given a choice of jail, or the Center. It is not
as obvious a choice as you might think, because at Santa Rita there are 550
acres of vegetables under cultivation and that means hard work for the
physically fit.

Most of the inmates are sent there for 90 days but it is not a jail. When a
man gets himself straightened out and healthy he can leave in less that 90
days. Alameda County Sheriff Jack Gleason says, "We give them psychiatric
assistance, work and an opportunity to build up their health. I won't say
how well the plan is working because it's too new. Give me two years. But it
looks pretty good, so far."

To spare their sensibilities, the Skid Row patients at Santa Rita were
separated from other inmates. The Skid Row group complained against this
discrimination. "We're as good as they are," they argued. Now all mix
together, and psychiatrists and policemen agree it is better that way.

Raymond McCarthy, executive director of the Yale Plan Clinic, thinks Oakland
is on the right path. He told me, "The punitive approach to the Skid Row
problem accomplishes nothing beyond making a city look neater.

"But," he added, "the majority cannot be helped by treatment on an
out-patient level. They must be isolated for medical and psychiatric study.
Jail is no good. Prison farms are just as bad. The Skid Row bum, to be
saved, must have supervised freedom." McCarthy admitted "supervised freedom"
is a top-notch contradiction in terms. "The sad fact seems to be," he said,
"that these men and women must be institutionalized in an institution that
doesn't exist today."

To that, and to all that went before it, I can add only this: I didn't meet
anybody on Skid Row who liked it. I didn't meet anybody who ever expected to
leave it alive. I didn't meet anybody who deserved to be there. It is a
world of the living dead and an utterly fantastic exhibition of man's
cruelty to man. It deserves as much study and research as cancer or heart
disease because, like those scourges, it can happen to you and yours.

THE END

(Sidebar)

An Editorial

Skid row, U.S.A., is the end of the line. When a man gets there he can't go
any lower. He can only go up-or out. Helping him up is not easy, for he is
one of the most perplexing members of society, as well as one of the most
pathetic. He is neither insane nor a criminal, but a man who has surrendered
to adversity and sought oblivion at the rock-bottom social level.

Alcoholism is the first and most evident obstacle to getting him back on the
beam. But, as William J. Slocum suggests in this article and the preceding
one, alcohol most likely is not the only problem, or even the basic one. It
may only be a symptom. It is easy to say that drink has driven a man to Skid
Row. But what drove him to drink?

That question can never be answered easily. Sometimes it cannot be answered
at all. But an encouraging number of men are being helped to find the answer
as the understanding of their problems increases. One of the leading
contributors to that understanding is Alcoholics Anonymous, where a man who
still wants to come back can find inspiration and advice from others who
have overcome desperate difficulties that most of us cannot even imagine.

The story of Skid Row is not new or pleasant. But it presents a situation
that has to be faced. Intelligent studies like Mr. Slocum's can help society
to regard the inhabitants of Skid Row not as congenital bums, but as
troubled, unhappy men who, with patient and intelligent aid, may perhaps
resume their places as useful citizens.

Source: Collier's, September 3, 1949


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| 2408|2391|2005-05-16 22:42:55|Roger Wheatley|Re: First 100 members|
It would appear that the statistics in the Forward were "fuzzy logic" based on the authors perception of success, likely embellished some. There were not actually 100 men and women, but rather close to this number and only a few women. This was marketing spin.
Those whose stories appeared in the First Edition who later returned to drinking would not have been yet considered part of the number which returned to drinking. This may point out a fallacy in some schools of thought which claim that the great success rate in early AA is attributable to a difference in quality or philosophy.
The gentleman you cite as a reference [Clancy I.] is not necessarily a historian. In a similar talk he shared that the Oxford Groups and the Oxford Movement were basically the same thing and the difference was largely semantic. Many members of this group will understand that this is not true.
| 2409|2338|2005-05-16 22:52:03|lessspamplease|List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism|
I would add the recent movie "Sideways" to your list. The main
character was (in my opinion) an alcoholic - although I don't believe
that term was ever used in the movie.

Eric
| 2410|2400|2005-05-16 22:54:02|David Grant|Re: Sotheby's manuscript|
Hi Rick,

This very subject came up in a conversation last week with my grand-sponsor. He knows the buyer personally and shared that he is a collector and has no though of breaking apart the manuscript (as many have feared) and intends to keep it as part of a private collection. Keep in mind that this is second generation information, though I have no reason to doubt it authenticity.

Cheers,

David

-------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- From: <ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sotheby's manuscript

Many of us recall the $1.56 milion paid last June for the final Feb. 1939 working draft of the Big Book, with its accepted bid telephoned in to Sotheby's from California. What's become of the archival item and its buyer?
Rick T. Illinois
| 2411|2411|2005-05-16 22:54:39|Charles Knapp|Re: how many original members died drunk|
Hello Group

I have the following quote about this on one of the 3 x 5 cards I use for a 35mm slideshow on the history of the Big Book.

"of the 28 veterans (and the article called them veterans) 5 went out and did not return; 8 Slipped after the Big Book was published, but returned to AA and 15 remained sober."

However I did not include a source on the card. I remember it was something that came out of New York. I thought it was the Box 459 that came out at the same time the 4th edition was published, but could not find the figures in the articles of that issue. I am thinking now it must have been another article from some other issue of Box 459.

Charles
| 2412|2412|2005-05-16 22:56:54|billherold1017@aol.com|Areas in AA organizational structure|
I was asked a question last night at a meeting and did not know the answer. Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using Areas for the structure of AA as opposed to dividing the country into States?

bill H,

Area 29
| 2413|2413|2005-05-17 00:18:48|Glenn Chesnut|Clarification on Marty Mann reference|
----------------------------------

Message 2391 from "dinobb_dinobb" <dinobb_dinobb@yahoo.com> asked about some of the people whose stories were put at the back of the original manuscript who died drunk. "The ones that stand out are Bill R., Hank P., Ernie G. I know about stories in the pioneering section -- Marty M. discontinued sobriety, etc."

----------------------------------

Jon Markle pointed out to me that people might be confused by this way of phrasing the Marty Mann reference and that they might mistakenly think that she died drunk, which was definitely NOT true.

The story of Mrs. Marty Mann, the first woman to obtain long term sobriety in AA, was not in the first edition of the Big Book, so in fact her name shouldn't be included in this particular list anyway. "Women Suffer Too" was only inserted into the Big Book in the second edition.

But at any rate, Marty did have a brief slip somewhere around 1960. When a young woman in AA (from Bronxville) drove down to pay a visit on Marty, she found Marty drunk. The young woman put Marty in her station wagon and took her back home with her, where the young woman kept Marty there in Bronxville until Marty sobered up again.

Marty had been sober since the end of 1940. After this brief slip somewhere around 1960, she never had another drink. She died sober on July 22, 1980.

See Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous, pp. 262 ff.

Also in referring to Ernie G. we need to distinguish carefully between the two Ernie's. The index to Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers refers to the one who could not stay sober as "Ernie G. the first of Akron."

See Children of the Healer p. 51, where Dr. Bob's daughter Sue describes her marriage to Ernie G. the first of Akron in September 1941, beginning with the lines: "Ernie was drunk when we got married. He'd stepped off the wagon -- again."

The other Ernie is referred to as "Ernie G. the second of Toledo," a very fine man, who not only stayed sober to the end of his life, but brought many excellent people into the program. This second Ernie for example at one point sponsored Larry W., the man who brought me into the program, and Larry used to talk about him with such enormous love and admiration.

Glenn









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2414|2412|2005-05-19 15:55:02|jlobdell54|Re: Areas in AA organizational structure|
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, billherold1017@a... wrote:
> I was asked a question last night at a meeting and did not know
the answer. Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using
Areas for the structure of AA as opposed to dividing the country
into States?
>
> bill H,
>
> Area 29

In the pamphlet YOUR THIRD LEGACY WILL YOU ACCEPT IT? (November
1950), Bill sets out (pp. 16-17) "Panel No. 1 TO BE INVITED IN 1951"
with columns for "State or Province" (such as "Pennsylvania")
and "Point of Assembly" (such as "Philadelphia" "Pittsburgh"). The
same headings ("State or Province" and "Point of Assembly") are
given for "Panel No. 2 TO BE INVITED IN 1952" (pp. 17-18). Then on
p. 18 is listed "Panel No. 2 (Supplemental) ADDITIONAL 1952
REPRESENTATION FROM SPECIAL AREAS (SUGGESTED)" which includes (for
example) "Pennsylvania [in italics] Harrisburg." On p. 19 is the
following NOTE: "Where large centers are near state or national
boundaries, there seems no good reason why Groups in adjoining areas
may not cross these lines to elect Delegates. For example, at
Detroit, Mich., Kansas City, Mo., Buffalo, N.Y., etc." It would
appear that the term "area" is Bill's and the division into areas
rather than states is present at the beginning, in 1950. Btw the
two parts of Pennsylvania (Harrisburg never got its "area") were for
quite a while known as "Pennsylvania" and "Western Pennsylvania." --
Jared Lobdell
| 2415|2413|2005-05-19 16:06:08|Mel Barger|Re: Clarification on Marty Mann reference|
I was pleasantly surprised to read Glenn's comment about the second Ernie G., who was one of the founding members here in Toledo. I knew Ernie, heard him speak, and had a number of conversations with him about AA's pioneering times. He lived in Adrian, Michigan, during his final years.
I've heard that Ernie may have been AA #69 or #70. He claimed Dr. Bob as his sponsor and knew most of the early Akron members, since he was living near Akron when he got sober. He was, indeed, a very fine man, and he was representative of the kind of AA who finds the program and then stays the course until the end.
Mel Barger
-------------------------
Larry W., who brought me into the program, said that when he first came in, he walked into an AA room, and he saw an old man, "and he just glowed." That was Ernie G. of course. And he says that Ernie told him, "Larry, you will never need to betray yourself again."
And that line has stuck in my own mind ever since, as part of the deep wisdom of old-time AA. I try to remind myself frequently of what those words mean. Ernie G. is one of those whom I have never met, but who has deeply affected my own life.
Glenn Chesnut
| 2416|2416|2005-05-19 16:06:18|Bill Lash|Tom P. Passes Away|
Dear Friends,

On April 27, at 12:01am Thomas E. Powers of Hankins, N.Y. died very
peacefully at home. Tom was sponsored at different times by both Dr.
Bob and Bill W., he worked at G.S.O., and he helped Bill W. write
the AA 12 & 12. He was a great man. He is survived by his one son,
four daughters, and many grandchildren. His family carried out his
wishes for a private funeral and was buried in Callicoon N.Y.

Cards or flowers may be sent to:

The Powers Family
190 Ridge Road
Hankins, NY 12741

Thank you for your support and prayers.
| 2417|2412|2005-05-19 16:06:33|Jim Blair|Re: Areas in AA organizational structure|
Bill wrote
Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using Areas for the
structure of AA as opposed to dividing the country into States?

Bill Wilson. I have a tape of him explaining how it was done and it involves
population densities.
Jim
| 2418|2401|2005-05-19 16:12:09|morefromles2|Re: Did Lois drive the motorcycle?|
Yes, Lois did drive the cycle. See PASS IT ON pg 70, which says, "... and in the sidecar, perched on top of it all, Bill himself, draped and dangling over the cowl. Lois was driving."

I saw that motorcycle in the barn at the Burnham House in Manchester, Vermont. I lived in that house briefly as a child, and Rogers lived with my family then and for several years. I have written a short article about my related history. I am now aged 80 and live in Colorado Springs, CO. Regards.... Les Cole
| 2419|2419|2005-05-19 16:14:19|Tony|Recipe for sobriety|
Would anyone happen to know the "recipe" that Dr. Bob used when making
his concoction of tomatoes, sauerkraut, and Karo syrup? I'm looking for
measurements and did he just blend it or what?
| 2420|2420|2005-05-19 16:14:26|dinobb3|man who mastered fear|
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP WAS BETWEEN ARCH
TOWBRIDGE AND SARAH KLEIN.
| 2421|2420|2005-05-21 11:56:43|Mel Barger|Re: man who mastered fear|
From: "dinobb3" <dinobb3@yahoo.com> "CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP WAS BETWEEN ARCH TOWBRIDGE AND SARAH KLEIN."

Sarah Klein was Archie's landlady during his early months of recovery in Detroit, after he had returned from staying with Dr. Bob and Anne in Akron for almost a year. She became so enthusiastic about AA that she permitted Archie to hold meetings in her home. This earned her great praise in Detroit and I recall seeing her being applauded at large meetings in Detroit in the 1950s. She was never a member herself, just a good friend who believed in Archie and AA.
I did shake hands once with Archie but did not know him. The No. 2 AA in Detroit was Mike Eshleman, who became a wealthy manufacturer after being fired in a very humiliating way from a place where he'd worked many years.
I attended Mike's 40th AA anniversary meeting in 1978 in Grosse Pointe, Michigan, an exclusive suburb of Detroit. Archie had passed on but his brother attended the party.

From Mel Barger, who experienced great AA in Pontiac and Detroit in the 1950s.
| 2422|2422|2005-05-26 20:27:40|Carl P.|Doctor's Opinion and first 164 pages|
Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of the first 164 pages of the Big Book?

Many Thanks

Carl P
| 2423|2420|2005-05-26 20:50:40|Cheryl Campbell|Recovery based plays|
I know there is a play on the traditions (I think I have a copy of that one)but I have also been told there are other plays based on Alcoholics
Anonymous. Does anyone know where I can get a hold of them?

Cheryl Campbell
| 2424|2424|2005-05-26 20:58:00|jimbernlohr|What city, psychiatrist, and hospital?|
Questions on the Big Book, on page 163, "A Vision For You":

lines 13-14:
"more alcoholics per square mile than any city in the country."
What city?

line 26: chief psychiatrist of a large public hospital.
Name of doctor and hospital?

last line on pg. 163:
"When a few men in this city"
Again what city?
| 2425|2425|2005-05-26 20:59:43|morefromles2|Communications between Lois & Rogers|
Does anyone know if there any letters in the archives between Lois
and Rogers between 1930 and later? Rog lived with us in Manchester
and in Wallingford, VT and he became a partner with my father in a
woodworking mill in Arlington around 1935 (Date not clear). I was a
child around 8-10 years old. When we lived in Wallingford Rog spent
one Christmas in New York and returnd to us with presents after
Christmas. Barbara and Cy visited us in Manchester around 1930-31.
Dr Burnham also visted us. I met Ebby there also and was in his
house. Ebby's family house was around the corner from the Burnham
house. My mother went to High school with both Bill Wilson & Ebby
at Burr & Burton there in Manchester. We all, includng Rog, spent
a summer in the Burnham Camp on Lake Emerald, also. Rog had injured
his foot at that time. The well known motorcycle which Lois and
Bill used years earlier was stored in the barn at the Manchester
house. My brother and I thought it was pretty neat. Although Bill
and Lois visted the Manchester house when I lived there, my mother
did not want us boys to see Bill because she knew of his drinking
problem. I appreciate any information about communications between
Rog and Lois. Thanks. Les Cole..... I'm a native Vermonter and
knew East Dorset quite well. I am now living in Colorado Springs at
Age 80. My regular E-Mail is elsietwo@msn.com
| 2426|2426|2005-05-26 21:05:57|Carl P.|Jim S. Son Of A Country Physician pg 232 4th Edition|
A member in my home group has asked if I could find out what happened
to Jim S., the "son of the country physician."

See "Jim's Story," beginning on page 232 in the 4th edition, the story of the physician who was one of the members of the first black AA group.

Can anybody help me with this question?

Many Thanks

Carl P.
| 2427|2427|2005-05-26 21:10:24|lorenzo|Open meetings and closed meetings|
Dear friends, can you refer me to anything on the origin of the "blue
card" with the closed meeting definition on one side of it and the
open meeting definition on the other. Maybe it was in the Grapevine I
read something about this. My home group is a closed meeting and the
issue of women alcoholics bringing a child with them to a meeting has
come up. Also what to do when a family member is there for "support."
You know how divisive this issue can be.

When I try to imagine the earliest days in AA I can't imagine Lois
would have tolerated working all day in a department store and then
not being allowed to go to a meeting of alcoholics in her own home.

When did this defined division of meetings into closed and open
occur?

Thank you AAHistoryLovers for any response to help our group with
some historic background to the issue we're now dealing with.

Larry G. in Placitas, New Mexico (meeting is in Bernalillo).
| 2428|2422|2005-05-26 21:12:56|Jim Blair|Re: Doctor's Opinion and first 164 pages|
Carl wrote:

Because "The Doctor's Opinion" is just that, an opinion of a non-alcoholic. The first 164 pages is an account of our experiences.

Jim
| 2429|2429|2005-05-26 22:25:35|rmcmillan5630|Twenty-Four Hours a Day author|
I was reading the Twenty-Four Hours a Day book published by Hazelden
and a fellow AA member suggested I not read it because the author
committed suicide. Since a well-respected long-timer told him this, I
am curious about the author and his story.

Anyone out there know the author and his or her story? I'd be very
grateful.

rm

------------------------

RM,

Oh please do not repeat this story! Definitely untrue. I don't know how these weird things get started. I'm sure glad you wrote in to check on it.

Rich was one of the truly good and fine AA old-timers, and his book has helped countless people get sober.

Rich died of old age on Mar. 25, 1965, at the age of 72, with 22 years of sobriety. Mel B. has spoken with one of his children, and says that Rich's family are all enormously proud of the way he lived his life, and the invaluable contribution he made to the AA program.

Rich began printing Twenty-Four Hours a Day himself in 1948, under the sponsorship of the AA group in Daytona Beach, Florida, and distributing it from his basement. Its use quickly began spreading all over the United States, and it rapidly became the second most important book in AA. All the good old-timers in my part of the country say that they got sober off of two books: the Big Book and the 24 Hour book.

Since the 24 Hour book was originally published under the sponsorship of the AA group in Daytona Beach, Florida, it has always been considered proper to read in AA meetings any place in the country, and is read from at the beginning of the meeting in numerous meetings in my part of the Midwest.

(The old-time AA rule was that any book or pamphlet which was published under the sponsorship of any AA group or intergroup, could automatically and without question be read from in meetings by any other AA group which chose to do so. The 24 Hour book, the Little Red Book, and the Detroit/Washington D.C. pamphlet all fell into this category, and all of them have been read from in AA meetings all over the US and Canada, as well as many other parts of the world, ever since they were written.)

In Rich's memoirs, written towards the end of his life, he said that death was returning to God, and this was where faith alone could carry us across the great divide which separates our world of space and time from the realm of the eternal ideas and the infinite reality which lies beyond all else:

"Above all, my faith in the Great Intelligence behind the universe, which can give me all the strength I need to face whatever life has to offer, is the foundation of my present life. When I die, my body will return to dust. Heaven is not any particular place in the sky, but my intelligence or soul, if it is in the proper condition, will return to the Great Intelligence behind the universe and will blend with that Great Intelligence and be at home again whence it came. My problem, in what is left of my life, is to keep my mind or intelligence in the proper condition -- by living with honesty, purity, unselfishness, love, and service -- so that when my time comes to go, my passing to a greater sphere of mind will be gentle and easy."

See the photos of him and his family at <http://hindsfoot.org/rwpix1.html> and the full story of his life at <http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html>, <http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html>, and <http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html>.

Also see the other material on Rich at <http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html> under "Richmond Walker" (near the top of the page, right below the photo of Bill and Lois on their motorcycle).

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

------------------------

P.S. Another misunderstanding is very common, so let me say something about that issue too. Rich was not associated with the Hazelden alcoholism treatment center in any way. In fact Hazelden was not even started until after Rich had written the 24 Hour book.

When Rich got old, and the demand for the book exceeded his ability to pack them up and ship them off from his basement, he asked the New York AA office to take over the job. That was at the point where New York was so short of money that they could barely get the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions published, and their attitude toward both Rich and Ed Webster (who offered them the Little Red Book) was that any AA group or intergroup which had figured out how to easily finance the publishing of an AA book was a whole lot better off financially than New York! It wasn't even a serious question as far as New York was concerned.

At that point, the newly started Hazelden alcoholism treatment center wrote Rich and offered to take the responsibility for keeping the book in print. Hazelden sometimes tries to give the impression that it is "their" book in some of their publicity, but this is certainly not so. It had nothing at all to do with the Hazelden Model of alcoholism treatment, and is certainly not a statement of the philosophy of the psychotherapists and psychiatrists at Hazelden.

Twenty-Four Hours a Day is simply good old-time AA at its very best.
| 2430|2430|2005-05-26 22:57:58|Carl P.|Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard|
First of all on behalf of my home group Barking Big Book Study, I wish to convey the gratitude of the group. AA History Lovers has helped with a majority of the questions raised by Barking Big Book and in doing so has helped the group grow. Thank you all.

We as a group are now reading There is a Solution, and we have a two-part question for AA History Lovers, both concerning Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard.

1) Where Dr Jung replies to Rowland "there are exceptions to cases such as yours which have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me those experiences are phenomena......." Can anybody tell me where Dr Jung got this information from, are there any pre-recorded letters or information about alcoholics having this vital spiritual experience?

2) We understand that Rowland was with Dr Jung for approximately one year. Is there any information about the type of treatment that he received from Dr Jung.? What did Dr Jung prescribe to him?

Many Thanks, Carl P.

------------------------------------

FROM THE MODERATOR:

1) Carl, I think your first question is asking whether we have any writings of Carl Jung, other than this letter to Bill Wilson, in which he talked about his theories of alcoholism, and the need for a spiritual solution. So this is the first question to put to our group.

2) I can say something about the second question myself. Some time ago, Bill Pittman at the Hazelden Archives discovered that the Hazard family's papers were still in existence, and Bill White (the author of Slaying the Dragon) also looked at them. Pittman got a college professor named Rich Dubiel to do further research on this material, and Dubiel published his findings in 2004. What came out was interesting, and has forced us to revise the traditional story about Rowland and Carl Jung. From Dubiel's summary of his findings:

"Rowland Hazard may in fact have consulted with the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung for a short period in 1931 (although no longer than two months at most, based on the author's study of the Hazard family papers). But Hazard had to be hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and then from January 1933 to October 1934 was again in bad shape and unable to carry on his business activities. If Jung had helped, it was certainly a much delayed reaction."

"What seems to have been much more important is that Courtenay Baylor became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through 1934. It is under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy that Hazard actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings, but his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist."

"In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November 1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book."

This doesn't mean that Jung's theory about alcoholism requiring a spiritual solution was incorrect. It just meant that Rowland did not begin any serious recovery until a couple of years after his sessions with Jung, when he finally found the kind of people who had the kind of spiritual answer which Jung had told him to look for. He found this answer partly in the Oxford Group, and partly in the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club (which had a far greater interest in treating alcoholism than the Oxford Group).

Boston AA met with the Jacoby Club when it first began in the same way that early Akron and New York AA began by meeting with the Oxford Group.

SOURCES: Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004) and <http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html>.
| 2431|2422|2005-05-26 23:24:13|John C. Pine|Re: Doctor's Opinion and first 164 pages|
Carl,

The Doctor's Opinion started on page 1 in the first edition of the book Alcoholic Anonymous, and I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation as to why it was grouped among the Roman numerals from the second edition onward. The late Don P. of Aurora, Colorado, was among those who pushed for it to be restored to its original place at page 1.

John P
Richmond, VA

--------------------------------

Original Message:

Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of the first 164 pages of the Big Book? Many Thanks, Carl P
| 2432|2432|2005-05-27 20:54:54|Cindy Miller|Nell Wing's 88th Birthday|
She was AA's first Archivist.....

May 27 will be her birthday -- Send her a card?

Ms. Nell Wing
52 Northwood Dr.
West Milford, NJ
07840

--Cindy Miller (Philadelphia, PA)

---------------------------------------------
Fiona Dodd: "Nell made such a fantastic contribution to AA."
---------------------------------------------
Ernest Kurtz: "But for Nell, A.A. would have much less history to love. She preserved, she fought for, she organized and maintained the very beginning of the archives. Anyone interested in the history of A.A. is in her debt, and it might be good to remind the relative newcomers of her contribution to our very existence."
---------------------------------------------
Jared Lobdell: "A gracious lady who survived many years as Bill's secretary and then was AA's first archivist: she was ... a very great lover of AA history."
---------------------------------------------
| 2433|2429|2005-05-27 21:06:30|Janis R|Re: Twenty-Four Hours a Day author|
Richmond Walker was a credit to AA. How do these rumors get started? Just proves that being an old timer does not guarantee accuracy. I have been to several meetings in Daytona Beach and they are very proud of him. More than a few of their old timers knew him personally.

Janis S. Raley,
Assistant Director

Dallas Intergroup Association
6162 E. Mockingbird Lane, Suite 213
Dallas, Texas 75214
214-887-6699
| 2434|2430|2005-05-27 21:11:12|corafinch|Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard|
Hi Carl,

There are a couple of things I can add. Please keep in mind that Bill Wilson had only brief conversations about the situation with Jung, and apparently (by his admission) only second-hand. I have tried to find someone who said they heard it directly from Hazard, and so far as I can tell even Ebby doesn't make that claim. Several people were aware of the conversation having occurred, from what other's had told them. So Wilson's knowledge of it was really only a general sense of what was said.

I might add also that Hazard's itinerary on his Europe trip, which included his wife and 4 children, is partially known and there is at most a period of 10 days when he might have been in Zurich. There is no evidence in the Hazard papers that he was in Zurich, but it cannot be ruled out.

I think it would be good to keep in mind the possiblity, however remote it may seem, that a misconception was formed in Wilson's mind about the identity of the alcoholic. Perhaps it was someone closely associated with Hazard and well known to Hazard but not to Wilson. One detail in Dubiel's book needs correcting, BTW. There is a short discussion about the spelling of the name in Jung's reply to Wilson which is not correct.

By the time Wilson was reconstructing the conversation, he had been in therapy with a prominent Jungian analyst, Frances Wickes. I would imagine that some of what he knew of what Jung might have said to an alcoholic would have come from Wickes. No doubt she would have known well what Jung's views were. He had also corresponded with other
students and patients of Jung.

As for the source of the ideas: Charles Bufe, in AA: Cult or Cure, mentions that Jung was probably familiar with some of what James had written. There was a German translation of the Varieties available from the early part of the century, and when Jung met with James in Boston around 1910 Jung was much impressed. The phrase James got from Hadley, about religiomania being the cure for dipsomania, is in that book. The similarity to what Jung said is very strong. Perhaps the words of an American ex-alcoholic who ministered to alcoholics came back to America from Zurich and became the seed of a uniquely American tradition.

Cora
| 2435|2430|2005-05-27 21:12:16|Jim Blair|Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard|
Carl asked
1) Where Dr Jung replies to Rowland "there are exceptions to cases such as
yours which have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a
while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To
me those experiences are phenomena......." Can anybody tell me where Dr Jung
got this information from, are there any pre-recorded letters or information
about alcoholics having this vital spiritual experience?

The material that comes to mind are two books by Harold Begbie titled Twice
Born Men and Souls In Action which were written in 1909 and 1911
respectively.

The books contain drunk stories of how men and women recovered thru the
Salvation Army.

Also, there are books written by former drunks who turned to misson work and
had their stories published such as Harry Hadly.

Such material was also common in Europe where abstinence societies have
existed long before AA.
Jim
| 2436|2436|2005-05-27 21:13:11|Bill Corcoran|Sixth Tradition question|
Greetings fellow AA History Buffs!

First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for the wealth of
knowledge I have gained from this group. This is my first post,
however.

I was wondering if anyone could expand on the portion of Tradition
Six which refers to the "distilling companies" desire to venture into
alcohol education? A well-repected member of the fellowship was
offered a position in public relations. The desire to refer to the
man as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous was the deal breaker and the
Sixth Tradition prevailed.

Does anyone have any further information as to the person's
identity and location? Also, I would appreciate any references that
my exist to read further on this topic.

Gratefully,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI
| 2437|2427|2005-05-27 21:20:14|Susan Krieger|Re: Open meetings and closed meetings|
The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference. It recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a service piece. One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics only and the other side would be for open meeting. The establishment of open and closed meetings is a much earlier policy. I believe that all meetings were closed and that open meetings originally were a part of public information, and were speaker meetings. The public was invited to hear the message of AA.

When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone could attend but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience. The concern has always been that many people with other problems other than alcohol have wanted to become members of AA. The fifth tradition encourages our singleness of purpose.The idea of supportive relatives is that they can attend open meetings only. If a group wants their meeting to be closed that is the right of the group concsience. The needs of the group always preceed the needs of the individual. Our traditions work!

susank

-------------------------

From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm

By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA "service piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have a tape of the 12 Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that conference (David A. from Texas) which tells the story that delegates to that conference could not come to consensus and therefore the blue card did not get conference approved. The compromise was to establish a "service piece" that groups could use if they chose to.
| 2438|2422|2005-05-27 21:23:18|Diz Titcher|Re: Doctor's Opinion and first 164 pages|
Esther Richards of John Hopkins suggested getting a physician to write an introduction to what had already been written (Bill's Story and There is a Solution), so I would think Bill would do just that. It took him 16 years to realize his mistake.

Diz T.
Tallahassee, FL.
| 2440|2420|2005-05-30 09:54:27|Bob McK.|Re: Recovery based plays|
From Bob McK. <bobnotgod2@att.net>

We have some skits. Please contact me directly at:
Bobnotgod2@att.net

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: Tony Wade <tonybethkaci@sbcglobal.net>

Hi Cheryl,
What kinds of plays are you talking about? Ones that deal specifically with AA history or just plays with a recovery theme? I have lots of skits that we have put on in my area (Northern CA) but I'm not sure what you mean.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: "Daniel" <nailed@earthlink.net>

In New York there was an original musical with 20 original songs running about an hour and a half called AA: The Musical. It was written and performed by AA's for AA's and the benefits went to NY Intergroup. It's circulating on DVD in NY these days.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
FROM THE MODERATOR: If anyone wants more information about these plays, skits, and musicals, please e-mail Bob McK., Tony Wade, or Daniel.

If you send it to me, and I have to forward it, it gets more complicated and time-consuming than you can imagine, because (among other things) the Yahoo system hides the crucial e-mail address from me, and I have to look it up in a Yahoo list that is only partially alphabetized. Thanks!
| 2441|2441|2005-05-30 10:25:36|Higher Powered|Link between 24 Hour book and God Calling?|
Does anyone know about the link between "God Calling" ( a book used in early AA) and the "24 Hours a Day" book?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
FROM GLENN C. (South Bend, Indiana)

Richmond Walker did not originally intend to write a meditational book. He wrote down a large number of meditations on small cards which he carried in his pocket, just for his own use when he was praying and meditating. Some of the other A.A. members in Daytona Beach, Florida, began reading some of the little cards and begged him to print them up in a little book for the A.A. groups in their part of Florida. They used the printing press in the county courthouse, and Rich distributed them from his basement.

For the small print sections at the bottom of each page in Twenty-Four Hours a Day, Richmond Walker drew heavily on a book he had discovered, entitled God Calling by Two Listeners, which had been edited and published by A. J. Russell, one of the most famous Oxford Group authors. God Calling had an interesting origin. One of the two women (whose names are unknown to this day) explained in an introduction how they were inspired to begin their spiritual exploration:

"In the autumn of 1932, I was sitting in the lounge of a hotel when a visitor, quite unknown, crossed over and handing me a copy of For Sinners Only asked if I had read it. I answered no, and she left it with me. On returning home, I bought a copy for myself. I was curiously affected by the book and .... there came a persistent desire to try to see whether I could get guidance such as A. J. Russell reported, through sharing a quiet time with the friend with whom I was then living. She was a deeply spiritual woman with unwavering faith in the goodness of God and a devout believer in prayer, although her life had not been an easy one. I was rather skeptical, but, as she had agreed, we sat down with pencils and paper in hand and waited .... To this day, I cannot obtain guidance in this way alone. But with my friend a very wonderful thing happened. From the first, beautiful messages were given to her by our Lord Himself, and every day from then these messages have never failed us ....�

"Certainly we were not in any way psychic or advanced in spiritual growth, but ordinary human beings who had more suffering and worry than the majority and who had known tragedy after tragedy. [And yet] always, and this daily, He insisted that we should be channels of love, joy, and laughter in His broken world ....�

"We, or rather I, found this command difficult to obey; to others it might have been simple. Were we to laugh, to cheer others, to be always joyful when our days were pain-racked and our nights tortured by chronic insomnia, when poverty and almost insupportable worry were our daily portion ...? Still came this insistent command to love and laugh and bring joy to the lives we contacted. Disheartened, one of us would gladly have ceased the struggle and passed on to another and happier life .... [Yet] He encouraged us daily .... Continually He exhorted us not to lose heart and spoke of the joy that the future held for us .... He stressed, most strongly of all, the immense power given to two souls praying together in close union and at one in their desire to love and serve Him."

This was the kind of message that could actually speak to struggling, tormented alcoholics. Richmond Walker decided to take it and use it freely in the small print sections in each day's meditation in his own compilation. He had to shorten the work enormously, and eliminate references to calling on the name of Jesus or contemplating Christ on the cross. Instead of prayers to Jesus, he turned it all into prayers to God instead, which was very, very important in the A.A. context. He clarified passages that were difficult to understand, and often almost totally rewrote the material.

He also added copious material of his own which was vitally important, explaining what the concept of a higher power was really about, for the help of alcoholics who literally did not have the foggiest idea of what was actually meant by the word God.

Perhaps the best way of summing up what Rich actually did would be as follows: God Calling was a nice little work of early twentieth-century Protestant piety, replete with the sentiments of the popular hymns from that period, hymns like "I walk in the garden with Him, while the dew is still on the roses, and the voice I hear, whispering in my ear, the Son of God discloses." God Calling is still one of the five or six top sellers in Christian bookstores (Protestant bookstores anyway). It was deeply moving in many places, but not truly exceptional -- or not in the sense of Rich�s adaptation. Rich remolded it, reshaped it, added copiously and cut away equally vigorously, and came out with what I regard as one of the ten or fifteen true classics of spiritual literature -- a masterpiece, measured by the standards of the past three or four thousand years, and including both eastern and western spiritual writings.

I have seen more people make more progress more quickly, by using Twenty-Four Hours a Day, than I have observed with any other meditational book in use in the English-speaking world today. (I do not have the same kind of knowledge of the kinds of meditational books currently available in German, French, Spanish, Italian, etc.)


SOURCE:
http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/richmond_walker.htm
http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html
| 2442|2430|2005-05-30 10:26:46|Tom Hickcox|Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard|
At 10:33 5/22/2005 , Carl P. wrote:

>"In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being
>committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November
>1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene
>recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book."

I would note that only a Flatlander would call the Brattleboro Retreat the
Brattleboro Asylum. 8^)

It has a long history in the treatment of mental illness as well as
alcoholism. AAMF, one or two of my uncles has been thru their program many
years ago.

Tommy in Baton Rouge but almost born in Vermont


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2443|2430|2005-05-30 10:29:57|Tom Hickcox|Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard|
Hi Carl,

There are a couple of things I can add. Please keep in mind that Bill Wilson had only brief conversations about the situation with Jung, and apparently (by his admission) only second-hand. I have tried to find someone who said they heard it directly from Hazard, and so far as I can tell even Ebby doesn't make that claim. Several people were aware of the conversation having occurred, from what others had told them. So Wilson's knowledge of it was really only a general sense of what was said.

I might add also that Hazard's itinerary on his Europe trip, which included his wife and 4 children, is partially known and there is at most a period of 10 days when he might have been in Zurich. There is no evidence in the Hazard papers that he was in Zurich, but it cannot be ruled out.

I think it would be good to keep in mind the possiblity, however remote it may seem, that a misconception was formed in Wilson's mind about the identity of the alcoholic. Perhaps it was someone closely associated with Hazard and well known to Hazard but not to Wilson. One detail in Dubiel's book needs correcting, BTW. There is a short discussion about the spelling of the name in Jung's reply to Wilson which is not correct.

By the time Wilson was reconstructing the conversation, he had been in therapy with a prominent Jungian analyst, Frances Wickes. I would imagine that some of what he knew of what Jung might have said to an alcoholic would have come from Wickes. No doubt she would have known well what Jung's views were. He had also corresponded with other students and patients of Jung.

As for the source of the ideas: Charles Bufe, in AA: Cult or Cure, mentions that Jung was probably familiar with some of what James had written. There was a German translation of the Varieties available from the early part of the century, and when Jung met with James in Boston around 1910 Jung was much impressed. The phrase James got from Hadley, about religiomania being the cure for dipsomania, is in that book. The similarity to what Jung said is very strong. Perhaps the words of an American ex-alcoholic who ministered to alcoholics came back to America from Zurich and became the seed of a uniquely American tradition.

Cora
| 2444|2444|2005-05-30 10:35:10|jlobdell54|Jung, James, and Bill W|
The story of Samuel Hopkins Hadley's mission recovery from alcoholism
is (with other such stories) in William James, The Varieties of
Religious Experience, which Jung had read before he met James at
Worcester (not Boston) in 1909 (not 1910), therefore certainly before
the 1930s. While Jung might have read Harold Begbie along the way, he
could have found enough for what he told RH in The Varieties of
Religious Experience. The supposition that it was another alcoholic --
not Rowland Hazard -- that Jung treated is unlikely, given Jung's
letter to Bill W. in 1961. The chronology is uncertain, of course,
but there is little doubt Rowland Hazard saw Jung. -- Jared Lobdell
| 2445|2427|2005-05-30 10:38:50|ArtSheehan|Re: Open meetings and closed meetings|
Hi Susan and Roger
The info below was posted to AAHL last July. I hope you find it useful
for the history that led up to the creation of the blue card and
actions that have occurred subsequent to it.
Some points of specifics: the correct name for the Conference is
“General Service” Conference not “AAWS” Conference. AA World Services
(AAWS) is an operating corporation that oversees the General Service
Office (GSO) and publishes AA books and pamphlets. The other operating
corporation is the AA Grapevine. These two entities constitute the
publishing arms of AA (see the AA Service Manual for a fuller
explanation).
Meeting types
The precursor to “The AA Group” pamphlet was called “Partners in AA.”
It was the first publication to define various meeting types. The
types of meeting defined then were “Closed,” “Open” and “Public.” Open
and closed meetings were explained in the pamphlet (along with what
was called a “typical” format for the meetings). Closed meetings were
also explained to include “straight discussion meetings,” “Step
meetings,” Tradition meetings,” “Panel meetings (Q&A type meetings)
and “Beginners meetings.” “Public meetings” were oriented to providing
public information to the community and encouraged inviting members of
the professional community (e.g. physicians, clergy, law enforcement
officials, etc.) to acquaint them with the availability of AA in the
community.
Service pieces
Items that are designated as “service pieces” (sometimes also called
“service items”) do not necessarily escape Conference scrutiny nor do
they lack Conference approval (e.g. Box 459, the “yellow sheet”
Guidelines and directories are among the various service pieces).
“Service pieces” are addressed only briefly in the AA Service Manual
to identify that GSO does publish items in addition to
Conference-approved literature.
The” blue card” was approved by the General Service Conference twice
(1987 and reaffirmed in 1988).
You can do a search in the group’s message archives to access
additional prior postings on the subject matter.
------------------------------------
The “blue card” definitions of open and closed meetings are part of a
series of Conference advisory actions emphasizing AA’s primary
purpose. The “blue card” is sometimes called the “primary purpose”
card. It was first recommended by the 1986 Conference, adopted by the
1987 Conference and reaffirmed by the 1988 Conference.
Below, is a timeline history of Conference advisory actions related to
AA’s primary purpose:
1968 It was recommended that: AA groups in correctional facilities and
hospitals adhere to AA's Fifth Tradition, on primary purpose of
carrying the message to the alcoholic. That anyone with problems other
than alcohol be made welcome at inside open meetings, but not
participate in group activities.
1969 It was recommended that: Guidelines be prepared outlining
procedures for AA members to follow in working with institutions and
ways of informing the nonalcoholic staff about AA. The following
committee recommendations are to be included in the guidelines:
a. AAs attending meetings at prisons or hospitals should be
selected carefully so that relations with the institution's staff
remain harmonious.
b. AA's position on membership in institutional groups be
defined as follows:
We cannot give AA membership to nonalcoholic narcotic addicts and
other unrelated groups or organizations. AA groups in institutions can
welcome anyone with problems other than alcohol to inside open
meetings, but it is suggested that they do not speak or otherwise
participate in these meetings.
1970 It was recommended that: The wording of the 1969 Institutions
Committee recommendation concerning the definition of AA's position on
membership in institutions groups be changed to read as follows:
Open meetings are traditionally open to all interested in AA, but
should be devoted exclusively to the alcoholic problem. Closed
meetings should traditionally be restricted to alcoholics.
1972 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm AA group policy
that "Only those with a desire to stop drinking may be members of AA
groups; only AA members are eligible to be officers of AA groups;
nonalcoholics are welcome at open meetings of AA." And, it is
suggested that the word "family" not be used in the name of an AA
group; if AA's and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together on a
regular basis, they consider these gatherings "meetings" and not AA
groups. (Floor Action)
1985 It was recommended that: The following be inserted in the
pamphlets "If You Are a Professional" and "How AA Members Cooperate":
The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop
drinking. If the person is not sure about this point, then he or she
is most welcome to attend an open AA meeting. If the person is sure
that drinking is not his or her problem, then he or she may wish to
seek help elsewhere.
1986 It was recommended that: A service item for use at AA meetings
regarding AA's primary purpose be developed by the appropriate
trustees' committee and proposed to the appropriate Conference
committee at the 1987 Conference.
1987 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding AA's
primary purpose be available as an AA service piece.
THIS IS A CLOSED MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of AA's
singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to
persons who have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a
problem with alcohol, you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask
that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those
problems, as they relate to alcoholism.
The following statement regarding AA's primary purpose be available as
an AA service piece.
THIS IS AN OPEN MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are
all here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of
purpose and our Third Tradition which states that "The only
requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking," we ask
that all who participate confine their discussion to their problems
with alcohol.
1988 It was recommended that: The Primary Purpose Card continue as a
service piece.
1990 It was recommended that: "The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the
one-way display and the poster be updated to reflect the findings from
the 1989 Membership Survey.
"The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way display and poster
reflect all the findings of the 1989 Membership Survey. The answer to
Question #14 in the AA survey pertaining to drugs should be presented
as follows:
"In addition to their alcoholism X% of members indicated they were
addicted to drugs," and include the disclaimer "AA's primary purpose
is recovery from alcoholism."
1992 It was recommended that: The 1992 AA Membership Survey
Questionnaire be changed as follows:
a. Add item "f' to Question #3: "this is my first AA meeting."
b. Revise item "1" of Question #5 to read: "Newspaper,
magazine, radio or TV."
c. Change Question #9 to read: "Do you belong to an AA Home
Group?"
d. Revise item "a" of Question #10 to read: "Do you have a
sponsor?"
e. Change item "b" of Question #10 to read: "Did you get a
sponsor within 90 days of coming to AA?"
That Question #14, "In addition to your alcoholism, were you addicted
to drugs?" be removed from the 1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire
because the question:
a. Emphasizes problems other than alcohol;
b. Has a tendency to lead to disunity;
c. Could be construed as conflicting with our primary purpose.
1997 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding
Singleness of Purpose be added to the C.P.C. pamphlets: "Alcoholics
Anonymous in Your Community," "AA and Employees Assistance Programs,"
"AA as a Resource for the Health Care Professional," "How AA Members
Cooperate With Professionals," "If You Are a Professional," and
"Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics Anonymous" under the title
"Singleness of Purpose and Problems Other Than Alcohol" at the next
printing:
"Alcoholism and drug addiction are often referred to as 'substance
abuse' or 'chemical dependency.' Alcoholics and nonalcoholics are,
therefore, sometimes introduced to AA and encouraged to attend AA
meetings. Anyone may attend open AA meetings. But only those with a
drinking problem may attend closed meetings or become AA members.
People with problems other than alcoholism are eligible for AA
membership only if they have a drinking problem."
Cheers
Arthur
_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan Krieger
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:42 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Open meetings and closed meetings

The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference.
It recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a
service piece. One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics
only and the other side would be for open meeting. The establishment
of open and closed meetings is a much earlier policy. I believe that
all meetings were closed and that open meetings originally were a part
of public information, and were speaker meetings. The public was
invited to hear the message of AA.

When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone
could attend but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience.
The concern has always been that many people with other problems other
than alcohol have wanted to become members of AA. The fifth tradition
encourages our singleness of purpose.The idea of supportive relatives
is that they can attend open meetings only. If a group wants their
meeting to be closed that is the right of the group concsience. The
needs of the group always preceed the needs of the individual. Our
traditions work!

susank

-------------------------

From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm

By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA
"service piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have
a tape of the 12 Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that
conference (David A. from Texas) which tells the story that delegates
to that conference could not come to consensus and therefore the blue
card did not get conference approved. The compromise was to establish
a "service piece" that groups could use if they chose to.
| 2446|2422|2005-05-30 10:39:11|ArtSheehan|Re: Doctor's Opinion and first 164 pages|
Hi Diz and Jim B

Let’s do the good Dr Silkworth some justice here. He is credited with
treating over 40,000 alcoholics in his tenure at Towns and
Knickerbocker hospitals. Bill called him “the little Dr who loved
drunks” and “medical saint.” He also served as a Board Trustee and,
along with Dr Tiebout, helped get Bill the opportunity to address
medical associations and explain AA to them. There is a magnificent
biography of Dr Silkworth by Dale Mitchell.

In a 1953 Grapevine article Bill W credits Dr Silkworth as being one
of the three major influences that led to the formation of the 12
Steps (the other two were the Oxford Group and William James).

Dr Silkworth wrote a (July 27, 1938) letter of support for AA for use
in fundraising for the Big Book. The letter was incorporated into the
chapter “The Doctor’s Opinion” (re AA Comes of Age pg 168 for the high
degree of stature and respect that Bill extends to Dr Silkworth).

Dr Esther L Richards of Baltimore had suggested to Bill to get a
“Number one physician” in the alcoholism field to write an
introduction (re Not God pg 332).

The notion that renumbering the chapter “The Doctors Opinion” to roman
numerals somehow reduces its stature is very dubious. Why Bill
renumbered the pages in the Big Book in the 2nd edition is a mystery.
Nobody really knows but there is some wonderfully entertaining
speculation on the matter. But it’s just that, speculation.

Also a technicality - the term “first 164 pages” is used erroneously.
They are not the first 164 pages - they are the pages numbered 1 thru
164. The error consists of taking a series of cardinal numbers and
using them as ordinal numbers. The first page occurs immediately after
the front cover. Admittedly this is nit-picking but I think the term
“first 164 pages” gets used mindlessly in AA and has become something
of a stale mantra (but I don’t want to get off on a rant here - I’ll
save it for another day).l

Cheers
Arthur
| 2447|2447|2005-05-30 10:43:13|jacqueline belgium|Twelve Promises and the Big Book|
More and more, we see in meeting places printed documents with the title "Twelve Promises" and more and more sharing are also made under the theme the "Twelve Promises."

Could you please tell me if the title "Twelve Promises" is an official term as I have no trace of such? If yes could you please give me the source and date.

Is the numbering of the "Twelve Promises" also an official presentation adapted from the text in the Big Book ?

Was the intention of the writers of thoses promise to number them? Though the coincidence is striking that the enumeration goes up, in a certain way, to twelve tracks to happiness.

I ask you those questions as I have the feeling, more specially for the
newcomers, that there is a confusion and think that our AA Triangle has four bases: Steps/Traditions/Concepts/Promises ! which leads to a possible misunderstanding.

Thanks in advance for your reactions.
Jacqueline - Brussels - Belgium

_________________________________________________________________
| 2448|2427|2005-06-02 18:59:26|Arthur Sheehan|Re: Open meetings and closed meetings|
MESSAGE 2445 REPOSTED to correct the formatting

---------------------------------------------

Hi Susan and Roger



The info below was posted to AAHL last July. I hope you find it useful for the history that led up to the creation of the blue card and actions that have occurred subsequent to it.



Some points of specifics: the correct name for the Conference is "General Service" Conference not "AAWS" Conference. AA World Services (AAWS) is an operating corporation that oversees the General Service Office (GSO) and publishes AA books and pamphlets. The other operating corporation is the AA Grapevine. These two entities constitute the publishing arms of AA (see the AA Service Manual for a fuller explanation).



Meeting types



The precursor to "The AA Group" pamphlet was called "Partners in AA." It was the first publication to define various meeting types. The types of meeting defined then were "Closed," "Open" and "Public." Open and closed meetings were explained in the pamphlet (along with what was called a "typical" format for the meetings). Closed meetings were also explained to include "straight discussion meetings," "Step meetings," Tradition meetings," "Panel meetings (Q&A type meetings) and "Beginners meetings." "Public meetings" were oriented to providing public information to the community and encouraged inviting members of the professional community (e.g. physicians, clergy, law enforcement officials, etc.) to acquaint them with the availability of AA in the community.



Service pieces



Items that are designated as "service pieces" (sometimes also called "service items") do not necessarily escape Conference scrutiny nor do they lack Conference approval (e.g. Box 459, the "yellow sheet" Guidelines and directories are among the various service pieces). "Service pieces" are addressed only briefly in the AA Service Manual to identify that GSO does publish items in addition to Conference-approved literature.



The" blue card" was approved by the General Service Conference twice (1987 and reaffirmed in 1988).



You can do a search in the group's message archives to access additional prior postings on the subject matter.



------------------------------------

The "blue card" definitions of open and closed meetings are part of a series of Conference advisory actions emphasizing AA's primary purpose. The "blue card" is sometimes called the "primary purpose" card. It was first recommended by the 1986 Conference, adopted by the 1987 Conference and reaffirmed by the 1988 Conference.



Below, is a timeline history of Conference advisory actions related to AA's primary purpose:



1968 It was recommended that: AA groups in correctional facilities and hospitals adhere to AA's Fifth Tradition, on primary purpose of carrying the message to the alcoholic. That anyone with problems other than alcohol be made welcome at inside open meetings, but not participate in group activities.



1969 It was recommended that: Guidelines be prepared outlining procedures for AA members to follow in working with institutions and ways of informing the nonalcoholic staff about AA. The following committee recommendations are to be included in the guidelines:



a. AAs attending meetings at prisons or hospitals should be selected carefully so that relations with the institution's staff remain harmonious.



b. AA's position on membership in institutional groups be defined as follows: We cannot give AA membership to nonalcoholic narcotic addicts and other unrelated groups or organizations. AA groups in institutions can welcome anyone with problems other than alcohol to inside open meetings, but it is suggested that they do not speak or otherwise participate in these meetings.



1970 It was recommended that: The wording of the 1969 Institutions Committee recommendation concerning the definition of AA's position on membership in institutions groups be changed to read as follows:



Open meetings are traditionally open to all interested in AA, but should be devoted exclusively to the alcoholic problem. Closed meetings should traditionally be restricted to alcoholics.



1972 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm AA group policy that "Only those with a desire to stop drinking may be members of AA groups; only AA members are eligible to be officers of AA groups; nonalcoholics are welcome at open meetings of AA." And, it is suggested that the word "family" not be used in the name of an AA group; if AA's and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together on a regular basis, they consider these gatherings "meetings" and not AA groups. (Floor Action)



1985 It was recommended that: The following be inserted in the pamphlets "If You Are a Professional" and "How AA Members Cooperate":



The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking. If the person is not sure about this point, then he or she is most welcome to attend an open AA meeting. If the person is sure that drinking is not his or her problem, then he or she may wish to seek help elsewhere.



1986 It was recommended that: A service item for use at AA meetings regarding AA's primary purpose be developed by the appropriate trustees' committee and proposed to the appropriate Conference committee at the 1987 Conference.



1987 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding AA's primary purpose be available as an AA service piece.



THIS IS A CLOSED MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of AA's singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to persons who have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those problems, as they relate to alcoholism.

The following statement regarding AA's primary purpose be available as an AA service piece.



THIS IS AN OPEN MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are all here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of purpose and our Third Tradition which states that "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking," we ask that all who participate confine their discussion to their problems with alcohol.



1988 It was recommended that: The Primary Purpose Card continue as a service piece.



1990 It was recommended that: "The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way display and the poster be updated to reflect the findings from the 1989 Membership Survey.



"The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way display and poster reflect all the findings of the 1989 Membership Survey. The answer to Question #14 in the AA survey pertaining to drugs should be presented as follows:



"In addition to their alcoholism X% of members indicated they were addicted to drugs," and include the disclaimer "AA's primary purpose is recovery from alcoholism."



1992 It was recommended that: The 1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire be changed as follows:



a - Add item "f' to Question #3: "this is my first AA meeting."

b - Revise item "1" of Question #5 to read: "Newspaper, magazine, radio or TV."

c - Change Question #9 to read: "Do you belong to an AA Home Group?"

d - Revise item "a" of Question #10 to read: "Do you have a sponsor?"

e - Change item "b" of Question #10 to read: "Did you get a sponsor within 90 days of coming to AA?"



That Question #14, "In addition to your alcoholism, were you addicted to drugs?" be removed from the

1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire because the question:



a - Emphasizes problems other than alcohol;

b - Has a tendency to lead to disunity;

c - Could be construed as conflicting with our primary purpose.



1997 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding Singleness of Purpose be added to the C.P.C. pamphlets: "Alcoholics Anonymous in Your Community," "AA and Employees Assistance Programs," "AA as a Resource for the Health Care Professional," "How AA Members Cooperate With Professionals," "If You Are a Professional," and "Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics Anonymous" under the title "Singleness of Purpose and Problems Other Than Alcohol" at the next printing:



"Alcoholism and drug addiction are often referred to as 'substance abuse' or 'chemical dependency.' Alcoholics and nonalcoholics are, therefore, sometimes introduced to AA and encouraged to attend AA meetings. Anyone may attend open AA meetings. But only those with a drinking problem may attend closed meetings or become AA members. People with problems other than alcoholism are eligible for AA membership only if they have a drinking problem."



Cheers

Arthur


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan Krieger



Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:42 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Open meetings and closed meetings



The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference. It recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a service piece. One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics only and the other side would be for open meeting. The establishment of open and closed meetings is a much earlier policy. I believe that all meetings were closed and that open meetings originally were a part of public information, and were speaker meetings. The public was invited to hear the message of AA.

When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone could attend but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience. The concern has always been that many people with other problems other than alcohol have wanted to become members of AA. The fifth tradition encourages our singleness of purpose.The idea of supportive relatives is that they can attend open meetings only. If a group wants their meeting to be closed that is the right of the group concsience. The needs of the group always preceed the needs of the individual. Our traditions work!

susank

-------------------------

From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm

By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA "service piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have a tape of the 12 Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that conference (David A. from Texas) which tells the story that delegates to that conference could not come to consensus and therefore the blue card did not get conference approved. The compromise was to establish a "service piece" that groups could use if they chose to.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2449|2449|2005-06-02 19:00:09|Bill Lash|AA Founders' Day Celebrations 2005|
Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills NY
Lois Wilson Annual Picnic
Saturday, June 4
http://www.steppingstones.org


The Wilson House in East Dorset VT
Bill Wilson Day
Sunday, June 5
http://www.wilsonhouse.org


Akron OH
June 10 - 12
http://www.akronaa.org
| 2450|2450|2005-06-02 19:03:32|and25g|Living Sober book|
I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved books AA has today which is "Living Sober." Recently, my home group has decided to read and study this book once a month at our meeting. I find many suggestions in this book which are sort of complete opposites of what our Big Book promises for alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your house, avoiding people, places, and things ....

I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by the Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!
| 2451|2451|2005-06-02 19:07:32|Gotogo2002L@aol.com|William James & spiritual experience|
Hi All
Can someone share their knowledge of the late William James and his
writings on the terms spiritual experience and spiritual awakening?
| 2452|2452|2005-06-02 19:09:04|Richard Johnson|Who you see here, what you hear here...|
... let it stay here.

Where did this statment come from?? I can not find
it in any A.A. books or A.A. lititure??? Is it something we just kinda
adopted?? Thanks, Richard
| 2453|2447|2005-06-02 22:17:43|ArtSheehan|Re: Twelve Promises and the Big Book|
***********************************************************
From (1) Arthur Sheehan, (2) Arkie Koehl, and (3) Jim Blair
***********************************************************

(1) From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Mon May 30, 2005

Hi Jacqueline

It helps greatly to develop a sense of humor and an awareness of (I
don’t know what else to call it) AA theater. Some things circulate in
AA which are solely the product of the imagination of individual
members. These folks often seem to have the uncanny aptitude of being
able to read things in the Big Book that aren’t written there.

First off, there is really no such thing as “The Promises.” The term
is a euphemism for 3 paragraphs of Big Book text on pages 83 and 84.
However, the term is so widely circulated in AA today, and is repeated
so often, it has become established. However, these things do come and
go - we are today thankfully rid of the infamous reference to “page
449” as the solution to every problem that could be conceived for and
by humanity (but it was a wonderful piece of AA theater).

The notion of the “Promises” adding up to 12 is also an invention of
imagination but not a very elegant one in its parsing. In order to
contrive 12 so called “Promises” one must leave out the 3rd paragraph.
Aside from giving the “Promises” their name, this paragraph is likely
the most significant paragraph in the series. However the paragraph
awkwardly and inconveniently contains two more “Promises.” It clearly
would not be good form, not to mention good theater, to have “The 14
Promises.”

The affinity for the number 12 began in December 1938 when Bill W
expanded the 6 Steps, then used as the program of recovery, into the
12 Steps we know today. In “AA Comes of Age” (pg 161). Bill wrote:

“Finally I started to write. I set out to draft more than six steps;
how many more I did not know. I relaxed and asked for guidance. With a
speed that was astonishing, considering my jangling emotions, I
completed the first draft. It took perhaps half an hour. The words
kept right on coming. When I reached a stopping point, I numbered the
new steps. They added up to twelve. Somehow this number seemed
significant. Without any special rhyme or reason I connected them with
the twelve apostles. Feeling greatly relieved now, I commenced to
reread the draft.”

This same wonderful man wrote what is today christened “The Promises.”
He elected to neither number them nor give them a name.

AA abandoned the circle and triangle logo years ago (we essentially
gave away their trademark and copyright by allowing vendors to put the
logo on chips and medallions). The Steps, Traditions and Concepts
constitute what are called the “Three Legacies.” While the triangle
was once used to symbolize the Three Legacies, it is no longer
included in Conference-approved literature and other material.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(2) From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com> Date: Mon May 30, 2005

Probably discussed here before, but I'm convinced there was some sort of duodecimal fixation going on . 12 Concepts of World Service, 12 Steps, 12 Traditions, 12 Promises. Plus other numbered arcana which are factors of the number 12, e.g., 6 warrants, 3 legs of service, circle/triangle symbol. I'm sure I missed some.
Perhaps this numerological fixation can be reduced to a single starting point: the old Ballantine Ale "Three-Ring Sign"? Or expanded to the well-known saying: "24 beers in a case; 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think NOT!" :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(3) From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> Date: Mon May 30, 2005

Jacqueline wrote: "I ask you those questions as I have the feeling, more specially for the newcomers, that there is a confusion and think that our AA Triangle has four bases: Steps/Traditions/Concepts/Promises ! which leads to a possible misunderstanding."

You are absolutely right. To take the "promises" on pages 83 and 84 out of the book and present them as "The Twelve Promises" is to take them out of context.

There have been requests for a service piece on "The Twelve Promises" but it was rejected on this basis.

Jim
| 2454|2454|2005-06-02 22:26:06|Tony Wade|Plays, skits|
Hi,

My new website is now up and running. It's called <http://www.recoveryskits.com/> and they are all free. I have one called "The Time Machine" about Bill and Dr. Bob being brought to 2005 which I'm going to add soon. Thanks!

Tony
| 2455|2455|2005-06-02 22:28:32|David Grant|Wilson House Founders' Day Celebration 2005|
The schedule at the Wilson House remains unchanged this year.

There is a graveside service at 1:00PM.

At 2:00 PM, a speaker meeting takes place on the Griffith House lawn
directly adjacent to the Wilson House.

There is a cookout that starts after the speaker, usually around 3:30PM with
a suggested donation of around $5.00.

Each year, speakers are chosen who have had a past personal relationship
with Bill. As time passes, every year finds the speakers a tad older.

One piece for the graveside service involves the placing of a pot of
geraniums on Bill's grave. A couple years back, a newcomer, barely a week
sober had the honor. Stepping wide eyed in front of a hundred or more
folks, his hands shaking, he laid the geraniums on Bills grave, then stepped
back quickly into the crowd. It was an amazing sight and so truly apropos
for the day.

This year it may actually be sunny in E. Dorset!

In Service,

David G.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Lash" <barefootbill@optonline.net>

> Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills NY
> Lois Wilson Annual Picnic
> Saturday, June 4
> http://www.steppingstones.org
>
>
> The Wilson House in East Dorset VT
> Bill Wilson Day
> Sunday, June 5
> http://www.wilsonhouse.org
>
>
> Akron OH
> June 10 - 12
> http://www.akronaa.org
| 2456|2452|2005-06-02 22:33:37|Bob Barnes|Re: Who you see here, what you hear here...|
"Who you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here."

This belongs to Alanon. AA just started using it. It was also used in 1944 in Wendover Utah by the 509th Bomb Group when Paul Tibbetts was training the 509th for their mission of delivering the A-Bombs to Japan. Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Bob Barnes

---------------------------------

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 9:15pm

Where did this statement come from??

Al-Anon. It is printed on a blue and white folding card and is conference approved (by Al-Anon).

Jim
| 2457|2450|2005-06-02 22:59:35|Jim Blair|Re: Living Sober book|
I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved
books AA has today which is "Living Sober."

Excerpt from AA World History (unpublished manuscript)

"Living Sober," the other booklet, published in 1975, had a more tortuous
history. Around 1968, there were discussions by the Board of the need for a
pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to point out "traps" or "danger
signals." Members of the Literature Committee and others were asked to
submit their ideas. Out of this grew a specific proposal for a piece of
literature to be developed around the topic, "How We Stay Sober." It was in
outline form by October 1969, and was assigned to a professional writer on
the staff of a prestigious national magazine. After nearly two years of
work, he submitted a complete draft.. Which everyone agreed would not do at
all. They felt it needed such drastic revision that it should be started
again from scratch by a new author. Barry L., a seasoned, skillful freelance
writer/consultant for G.S.O. was given the task. With Bob H., general
manager of G.S.O., he negotiated a flat fee for the project. After four and
a half years of organizing material and writing . and probably some
procrastinating, as well, Barry came up with a simple, intensely practical,
charmingly written manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life without
drinking. It was not spiritual and contained nothing about getting sober;
but it was chock-full of the kind of advice and suggestions a newcomer might
get from a super-sponsor. ("A.A.'s First Aid Kit" was Bayard's name for it.)
And it was written in a style unlike any other A.A. literature: breezy,
impertinent, colloquial and informal. "Living Sober" proved to be hugely
popular, and after it had sold nearly a million copies, Barry L. felt he
should have been compensated more generously and should receive some sort of
royalty. He sent a letter to all past Trustees and G.S.O. staff members with
whom he was acquainted, to advance his claim. The AAWS Board and the General
Service Board considered his case, but declined to take action. He then
threatened legal recourse, but perhaps realizing the weakness of his case,
never followed through.

Jim
| 2458|2458|2005-06-02 23:02:05|Gallery|I am responsible|
Here's a good question for this group.
There's been some discussion in my home group about the context of the; "I
am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help..." text. My
sponsor found the quote in Pass It On, on page 181. Do any of you have the
Responsibility Declaration from the International Convention 1965 that it
mentions or know where I can find it? I'd like to read more of the context
around this statement. Just from the brief story presented in Pass It On, it
seems that it's referring to the movement of the fellowship across the
globe.
My question revolves around the idea that it's often taken out of context
and causes a blur in our singleness of purpose.
Any thoughts would be also be appreciated. Thanks.

Rotax Steve
Nangi namaj perez
| 2459|2426|2005-06-02 23:05:15|ArtSheehan|Re: Jim S. Son Of A Country Physician pg 232 4th Edition|
Hi Carl
-
Jim Scott , MD, a black physician (Big Book story “Jim’s story”)
spoke at the 1955 “coming of age” convention in Cleveland, OH (re “AA
Comes of Age” pg 37). You won’t find his name in the index of “AA
Comes of Age” (this also true of quite a few other names in the book).
“Jim’s Story” first appeared in the 2nd edition and has been carried
thru to the 4th edition.
-
Dr Jim resided in the Washington DC area. In “Jim's Story” it cites
that his main assistance came from Charlie G (his sponsor - a
Caucasian) and Ella G (a black woman) who introduced Jim to his
sponsor. Dr Jim sobered up in 1943.
-
“Jim's Story” and “AA Comes of Age” credit him with starting the 1st
black group but I don't believe that is factual (he started the first
black group in Washington DC but not the US). I’ve also heard of him
being referred to as “the black Dr Bob.” He reputedly was a prolific
12th-Stepper and used his home as a halfway house and hospital. His
wife, Viola, is likened to Anne Smith for her tireless assistance to
him.
-
The paragraph below is from the November 1980 Grapevine:
-
The first interracial group in the New York area started in the late
1940's. It was a slow process. There was a black group in Washington,
D.C., which was then segregated. Its founder, Jim S.(whose story is in
the Big Book), his wife Viola, and other members of the group used to
come to New York on weekends to help us. They were simply wonderful.
The black men and women in this area usually would show up at our
downtown meetings, one at a time, and never come back. We tried to
make one of the Greenwich Village meetings into an interracial group,
and that didn't work.
-
Dr Jim is sometimes confused with another Jim Scott from Akron, OH who
edited the stories for the 1st edition Big Book (the Akron, OH Jim
Scott’s Big Book Story was first titled “The News Hawk” and later
changed to “Traveler, Editor, Author”). His sober date is July 1937.
-
Cheers
Arthur
| 2460|2460|2005-06-10 10:34:02|john pizzamiglio|Akron pamphlet and Upper Room|
Akron pamphlet from 1940/41:

I read a pamphlet written (I think) by Dr. Bob. In it there is made mention of reading The Upper Room. Anyone have info on what this is? I would appreciate any responses.

Thanks, Pizza
---------------------------------
Hi,

I don't think that any AA historians believe that Dr. Bob wrote that little Akron pamphlet himself, but it clearly must have had his approval, and Sister Ignatia's approval as well, because of the way it was used. So it gives us a good look at early Akron AA at the beginning of the 1940s, right after the Big Book was published, and the kinds of approach to the program that Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia were encouraging.

The Upper Room was a series of little paperback booklets, with a meditation for each day. The old southern Methodist church began publishing them in 1935, the same year that AA began, in Nashville, Tennessee. They are still being published today.

From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read every morning by more AAs than any other meditational work. Although the Oxford Group had the greatest influence on the development of early A.A. at the very beginning, The Upper Room was clearly the second greatest influence on early A.A. spirituality. You can see the effect of ideas drawn from The Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of the Big Book.

For a quick look at the kinds of things the Upper Room talked about, see <http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html>, which gives selections from the readings in some of the issues of The Upper Room published in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew from this source: an important part of their understanding of what was meant by character and character defects, the emphasis on happiness as an inside job, the idea of the Divine Light within, and warnings against being too imprisoned by doctrines, dogmas and church creeds. Also the dangers of resentment, instructions about how to pray, entering the Divine Silence, learning to listen to God, opening the shutters of my mind to let in the Sunlight of the Spirit, taking life One Day at a Time, and above all, remembering that God is present with me at all times: "Nearer is he than breathing, closer than hands or feet."

I'm glad you asked about it, because I wish that someone would come out with something -- either in the form of a book, or something online -- which would enable present day AA members to look at copies of The Upper Room from that early period. It would help people to better understand the nature of AA spirituality and its roots.

Glenn Chesnut
| 2461|2452|2005-06-11 08:38:42|Bristol Fashion|Re: Who you see here, what you hear here...|
In reply to Richard..... this statement is printed on yellow cards over here. It is recently become part of the list of literature and can be obtained from our General Service Office in York. As the statement did not originate in Alcoholics Anonymous, some people find this fact offensive. My dear late sponsor, who was from an older generation, told us that this statement was pinned up on the walls of the atomic bomb laboratories after the War. He hated to see this statement on the table at A.A. meetings because if taken literally it meant that we should not carry the message outside the meeting and that it encouraged secrecy and shame, and helped perpetuate any stigma of alcoholism within our own Fellowship. What it really means to say is: DON'T GOSSIP !

If a reminder about this simply has to appear at a meeting then the
'Anonymity Statement' coming out of the Office in New York since 1993 is, to my mind, preferable. It goes like this: "Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions. Please respect this and treat in confidence who you see and what you hear."

Yours
Editors
| 2462|2450|2005-06-11 08:42:33|Jon Markle|Re: Living Sober book|
In my home group where I got sober, we used this book for newcomers and
included the discussions from it for our Beginners Meeting.

My understanding for discussions, it is most often used, if not intended
for, beginners in sobriety. Although, contrary to your observations, when
studied in context with the Big Book I find no such conflicts as you
suggest. And highly recommend that the literature is relevant even for us
"long-timers".

The passage/apparent "opposite" is not in conflict, if you follow the
context from the Big Book to which you refer.

Others here can speak more directly and factually, especially as to the
authorship . . . I do know a couple of things, but not first hand.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of and25g
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:28 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Living Sober book

I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved
books AA has today which is "Living Sober." Recently, my home group has
decided to read and study this book once a month at our meeting. I find many
suggestions in this book which are sort of complete opposites of what our
Big Book promises for alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your
house, avoiding people, places, and things ....

I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by the
Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!









Yahoo! Groups Links
| 2463|2463|2005-06-11 10:09:28|Glenn Chesnut|Guidelines for posting messages|
Hi everybody,

Since we are continually adding new members (we now have 1305 members in this group, coming from all over the globe) it is occasionally useful to repeat some of the basic guidelines for posting messages. As Nancy Olson wrote them out for us:

1. We are not an AA group: the list is open to anyone interested in A.A. history whether AA members or not.

2. We are not a chat room: please do not use the list to comment on other people's posts. Comment on the post ONLY if your message has additional history on the subject.

3. Personal opinions are to be avoided: no personal opinions, or posts based just on rumor or vague memory of what someone told you will be posted. To the extent possible please list the sources for any information you send.

4. Not every message sent in will be posted. Part of what makes the group so enjoyable is that the moderator uses some selectivity before posting anything.

ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT (added by the present moderator):

5. It is very difficult, given the Yahoo group system, for the moderator to forward a message from one member to another. We just get too many messages for the present moderator -- who already tends to get overwhelmed by the sheer number of messages sent in (!!!) -- to copy your message onto Notepad, look up the other member's address, and then paste and send your message in an Email addressed to him or her.

(a) So if you want to send an Email about one of the messages to the member who posted that message, go to

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

Each message gives the Email address of the person who posted it, so you can use that address and Email that person directly.

(b) If and only if you want to post a message for the entire group to read, send it to

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME ON THIS LAST ITEM.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN), Moderator



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2464|2464|2005-06-11 10:33:19|ArtSheehan|First 100 Members Revisited - Myth vs. Fact|
This posting is an appeal to exercise care that AAHistoryLovers not be
a vehicle for the propagation of myth (please see the edited messages
below). A very durable myth within AA today is the assertion that many
early members, whose stories appeared in the 1st Ed Big Book, died
drunk.

To state that this myth is built on a meager thread is putting it
mildly. Even more meager is the presentation of solid evidence to
substantiate the assertion. The myth is principally based on anecdotal
hearsay and its presumption of validity is based solely on droning
repetition.

Myths are easily spawned within AA and two common practices fuel their
propagation. The first is the construal of the figurative as the
literal; the second is the presumption that a member’s duration of dry
time somehow equates to their degree of knowledge and accuracy. It’s
one thing for a member to give testimony about what they have
personally observed and quite another if the testimony is about what
they sincerely believe. The strong verbal tradition in AA provides an
easy means for the propagation of myth. Repetition then gives the myth
the semblance of validity.

Let’s look at the myth in question.

In the introduction to the story section in the 2nd Ed Big Book it
states:

“When first published in 1939, this book carried twenty-nine stories
about alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest
number of readers, the new Second Edition (1955) carries a
considerably enlarged story section, as above described. Concerning
the original twenty-nine case histories, it is a deep satisfaction to
record, as of 1955, that twenty-two have apparently made full recovery
from their alcoholism. Of these, fifteen have remained completely
sober for an average of seventeen years each, according to our best
knowledge and belief.”

In the introduction to the “Pioneers of AA Section” stories of the 2nd
Ed it goes on to state:

“Dr Bob and the twelve men and women who here tell their stories were
among the early members of AA’s first groups. Though three have passed
away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for
periods ranging from fifteen to nineteen years as of this date 1955.
Today, hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no
relapse for at least fifteen years. All of these then are the pioneers
of AA. They bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be
permanent.”

22 of the stories that appeared in the 1st Ed Big Book were dropped
for the 2nd Ed.

These stories were not removed because the members went back to
drinking (although some did). According to Bill W’s introduction to
the stories in the 2nd Ed Big Book, 75+% (22 out of 29) of these early
members were sober as of AA’s 20th anniversary (1955). 7 of the 29 had
returned to drinking but subsequently sobered up again. Another 7 of
the 29 returned to drinking and did not sober up. The stories of 22
members were removed to establish a more representative sampling of
the cross-section of the AA membership - not because they were
drinking again or had died drunk.

If anyone is overly concerned that any of these early members returned
to drinking, please keep in mind that every one of them had at one
time been considered hopeless. Also keep in mind that the chief
characteristic that makes an alcoholic an alcoholic is the inclination
to drink again despite all kinds of evidence that says they have no
business picking up that first drink (i.e. the jaywalker story).

If anyone has credible evidence to the contrary regarding the above,
please submit it for scrutiny. There are similar myths circulating in
AA about the success rates and growth rates achieved in AA today
compared to the 1940s and 50s. Those too are premised on the most
slender of threads and appear far more agenda-driven than fact-based.

Arthur

------------------------------------------------------
From: dinobb_dinobb

I heard Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the
original members died drunk.

From: "Gallery" Date: Thu May 12, 2005

I just listened to Clancy today: a tape called "Our Primary Purpose."
Don't know the date or place but I would guess it to be from the late
80's or early 90's and he said that "many of the original members died
drunk." I was going to post that same question myself. I know the
statistics in the Foreward don't match with that (50%, then 25% come
back - thus 75%).

Rotax Steve, Nangi namaj perez

From: Bill Lash Date: Fri May 13, 2005

This is true, many of the 1st Edition Big Book story authors did not
stay sober. The earliest members learned a harsh lesson about recovery
from alcoholism that is a lesson to us all - it's an Oxford Group term
called "Continuance" (the last of the five C's). What they learned
from their own experience was that they don't just do the practical
program of recovery once & then rest on their laurels (past
achievements). We don't awaken spiritually & then this initial
awakening carries us for the rest of our lives. They learned this was
not enough. We need to awaken spiritually & then continue to deepen &
broaden our spiritual life through work & self-sacrifice for others.
The spiritual experience of a year ago will not keep us sober today,
just as the drink we had last week will not keep us drunk today. We
need to grow in spiritual understanding & effectiveness by staying
involved in all three parts of AA solution throughout our lives -
Recovery (which is the working & re-working of all 12 Steps), Unity
(AA meetings & interacting with other AAs), & Service (this includes
inside our fellowship as well as outside our fellowship, expecting
nothing in return). This 3-part solution is found in our Circle &
Triangle. This is a way of life, a design for living that works in
rough going. I have NEVER known ANYONE who was CURRENTLY involved in
ALL three parts of AAs solution on an ongoing basis who EVER went back
to drinking. Thanks for your important question. Take it easy & God
bless!

Just
Love,

Barefoot
Bill


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2465|2460|2005-06-11 10:34:38|ny-aa@att.net|Re: Akron pamphlet and Upper Room|
Hi, "Pizza"

Your question about the "Upper Room" was attached to a
good explanation by Glenn C about the meditation pamphlet.
It has always had one meditation page per day of the
month. Glenn gave a link to his article with examples
of the old "Upper Room" when A.A. was just starting.

http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html

If you want to see what it looks like now, visit just
about any Methodist church. Most if not all have them
in a rack or on a table near an entrance.
| 2466|2466|2005-06-12 09:52:10|ArtSheehan|FW: [AAHistoryLovers] Twenty-Four Hours a Day author|
From: ArtSheehan [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:25 PM
To: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Twenty-Four Hours a Day author

Hi

Janice is quite right. The AAHistoryLovers group has to be focused on
the objective of separating fact from myth and history from hearsay.
Although well intended, all too often members of the Fellowship are
far too inclined to interpret “duration of dry time” as “degree of
accuracy.” No matter whether old-timer or newcomer, it all depends on
how well the source has done their research. If the basis is all
anecdotal, then a healthy, polite skepticism is warranted.

You can also make use of the full internet as a research tool. Do a
Google (or equivalent) search with the search string “Richmond Walker”
Some excellent biographical information can be obtained from very
reliable sources. Below are two links from the Hazelden web site and
the wonderful West Baltimore web site’s article by our AAHL moderator.

From Hazelden

http://www.hazelden.org/servlet/hazelden/cms/ptt/hazl_7030.html?sh==t
<http://www.hazelden.org/servlet/hazelden/cms/ptt/hazl_7030.html?sh==t&
sf==t&page_id='727> &sf==t&page_id='727

From the West Baltimore Group

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/richmond_walker.htm

Cheers
Arthur

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janis R
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 2:52 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Twenty-Four Hours a Day author

Richmond Walker was a credit to AA. How do these rumors get started?
Just proves that being an old timer does not guarantee accuracy. I
have been to several meetings in Daytona Beach and they are very proud
of him. More than a few of their old timers knew him personally.

Janis S. Raley,
Assistant Director

Dallas Intergroup Association
6162 E. Mockingbird Lane, Suite 213
Dallas, Texas 75214
214-887-6699
| 2467|2458|2005-06-12 10:03:27|brian thompson|Dr. Silkworth's grave|
Hello Group,
Does anyone know where Dr. Silkworth is buried? Was wondering if he might be in Akron? Am going there this weeekend for founders day.
BRIAN T. Camp Verde, AZ
| 2468|2468|2005-06-12 11:39:12|Robert Stonebraker|Origional First ed. BB covers?|
Dear AA History Group,

My friend, Pia, is from Sweden; she wrote to me with the following query. I
suggested that she photograph the First Edition Big Book Covers and mail her
questions to GSO Archives in NY. My question is what other advice could I
offer. The following excerpts from her correspondence will better explain
the situation:
))))))))))))))

You see, when my beloved father passed away he left all his books and tapes
and EVERYTHING to me. I will be eternally grateful for that, it is a never
ending source of wisdom and knowledge. Still, there are two things in this
"collection" of AA-material that confuses me.

When I was going through all the books and everything I found two book
covers. One is safely kept in a glass-frame, the other one seems to be used.
And they are covers of the original Big Book...

I also have two copies of the re-production of the book, and if I look close
it says that it is a re-production of the original Big Book and that it is
produces by the Anonymous Press. This text is not there on the other covers.
Is it possible that my father has gotten his hands on two ORIGINAL covers or
have there been copies made without the text that says it is a
re-production?

And from another correspondence:

One of them (the one in the glass-frame) seems to come just out of the
presses, it has never even been folded.

Your help would be much appreciated.

Bob S,
rstonebraker212@insightbb.com rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

Pia�s email address is: pia.edstrom@comhem.se
pia.edstrom@comhem.se>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2469|2460|2005-06-12 11:44:00|jayaa82@aol.com|Re: Akron pamphlet and Upper Room|
The Akron Pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob but written by Evan W. an
Akron member who had been a newspaper writer. Dr. Bob believed that the Big
Book might be too complicated for the "blue collar" member or others with
little education. The pamphlets are still printed and distributed by the Akron
Intergroup

Jay M.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2470|2470|2005-06-12 13:13:14|anders bystr�m|The upper room|
Hi group!

I'm an alkie from Sweden taking great pleasure reading things posted in this group, and I've learnt a lot from it through the years. I'm very interested in getting to know if the book "The Upper Room" is still available in book stores. I've searched amazon for it with no luck.

Love and Service
Anders

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anders,

It's not really a book, but more like a little magazine, folded and stapled with two staples at the fold. At present, they are being published every two months (the one I have on hand is the March-April 2005 Upper Room), 10.6 cm by 15.9 cm (4-1/8 inch by 6-1/4 inch), 80 pages long.

Someone could subscribe to the present version at Customer Service, The Upper Room, P.O. Box 340012, Nashville TN 37203, toll free phone number (for the United States) 1-800-757-9877. There is currently a Swedish language version (along with editions in Polish, Spanish, Tagalog, Tamil, Thai, Urdu, Zomi, and so on. 44 different languages).

The problem for AA historians is that each year's edition is different. The present day editions follow the same basic philosophy in some respects, but there have been changes in perspective, because the United Methodist Church today is different from the Methodist Episcopal Church South of the 1930's.

(In 1939, the three largest Methodist groups in the United States, the M.E. Church, the M.E. Church South, and the Methodist Protestant Church, had a merger, and later on the German-language-tradition Evangelical and United Brethren Church joined the merger, to produce what is now called "The United Methodist Church." Their points of view were not necessarily the same as the old Southern Methodists prior to 1939. The Southern Methodists were the Methodist Church of the old Confederacy and the Deep South. They seceded from the northern Methodists not long before the Civil War and formed their own separate church. And the Methodists both north and south have also been swept by a number of different theological fads since the 1930's.)

I'm not trying to make it confusing and difficult, but the big problem is that an AA historian therefore could not safely use a 2005 copy of The Upper Room to try to figure out exactly what an AA member would have read in 1935, seventy years earlier.

They would have all the back issues of The Upper Room from the 1930's and 1940's at the Upper Room headquarters, which is still in Nashville, Tennessee, right next to the Vanderbilt University campus. They have most of them, I have been told, in the Perkins School of Theology library at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas. Nashville and Dallas were both part of the old Southern Methodist Church. Presumably some of the other Methodist seminary libraries in the United States might have copies from that period in their historical archives section. Emory University in Atlanta was part of the old southern church.

Dick B. (Hawaii) tells me that he contributed a number of issues from the early period to one of the AA archives, I believe the one at Stepping Stones, to make sure that AA people of later generations could have access to them.

The few copies I have from the early AA period were a gift from my wife, who discovered them for sale on e-Bay, but that was a kind of fluke. The rare book dealers in this country do not realize that those old back issues could be of historical importance, so they don't carry them. And the copies used in my family back during the 1940's, when I was a child, unfortunately have long ago been thrown away.

This was why I commented that it would be useful if someone in AA could obtain permission from The Upper Room to publish a book containing even a couple of years worth of copies of their magazine from the 1930's. To make this truly useful to AA historians, it would have to be a verbatim copy of everything in the magazines from that two-year period (or whatever), not just a selection of a few pages or paragraphs here and there. When people publish partial selections, it will always necessarily give a biased view of what was in the original.

People need to be aware also that prayers in The Upper Room are sometimes to God, but also sometimes to Jesus Christ, and that all the meditations are strongly biblically oriented. I'm totally comfortable with that, because this was my own childhood tradition, but not all modern AA people are. It's strongly Christian, just like the Oxford Group literature, and like God Calling by Two Listeners.

Modern AA however is spread all over the world, in places with all sorts of different religions, which is why I wanted to mention that.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
| 2472|2472|2005-06-12 13:40:12|Glenn|Dr. Silkworth's Gravesite|
"The little doctor that loved drunks" is buried in the New Jersey seaside town of Long Branch. Which is also home to Fort Monmouth and Monmuth University and The San Alfonso Retreat House which holds Matt Talbot Retreats for recovering alcoholics.

By the by, Edwin T. (Ebby) Thatcher, Bill W's sponsor, is buried in Albany Rural Cemetery located near Albany, NY. No mention of Alcoholics Anonymous is made on either headstone.

Happily Trudging Today #9979
Glenn L
Birdsboro, PA

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

On Mar 22, 1951 William Duncan Silkworth MD (age 78) “the little doctor who loved drunks” and “medical saint” died of a heart attack at his home at 45 W 81st St, NYC.

In his service as Medical Director at Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals, he was credited with treating over 40,000 alcoholics.

His funeral was held at the Calvary Episcopal Church in NYC and he was laid to rest in Glenwood Cemetery in West Long Branch, NJ.

Cheers
Arthur
| 2473|2450|2005-06-12 13:42:39|ArtSheehan|Re: Living Sober book|
Hi Jon and John

About the book “Living Sober”

It was written by NY member Barry L, published in 1975 and had a bit
of a tortuous history. Around 1968, there were discussions by the
Board of the need for a pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to
point out “traps” or “danger signals.” Members of the Literature
Committee and others were asked to submit their ideas. Out of this
grew a specific proposal for a piece of literature to be developed
around the topic, “How We Stay Sober.” It was in outline form by
October 1969, and assigned to a professional writer on the staff of a
prestigious national magazine. After nearly two years of work, he
submitted a complete draft which was rejected. The sense that it
needed such drastic revision led to it being started again from
scratch by a new author. Barry L, a seasoned, skillful freelance
writer/consultant for GSO was given the task.

Barry negotiated a flat fee for the project. After 4 1/2 years of
organizing material and writing, Barry came up with a simple and
practical manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life without
drinking. It was not meant to be spiritual and contained nothing about
getting sober; but focused on the kind of advice and suggestions a
newcomer might get from a sponsor. “Living Sober” was written in a
style unlike other AA literature: breezy, impertinent, colloquial and
informal. It proved to be hugely popular.

About the author

After the book had sold nearly a million copies, Barry L felt he
should have been compensated more generously and should receive some
sort of royalty. He sent a letter to all past Trustees and GSO staff
members with whom he was acquainted, to advance his claim. AAWS and
the General Service Board considered his case but declined to take
action. Barry then threatened legal recourse, but perhaps realizing
the weakness of his case, never followed through.

Barry was one of the first homosexual members of the Fellowship. He is
mentioned in the book “Pass It On” (pgs 317-318) in regard to a 1945
incident that occurred at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. Bill W was
called from the clubhouse by Barry to alert him of the arrival of “a
black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing
women’s clothing and makeup.” He also admitted to being a “dope
fiend.” When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, “did
you say he was a drunk?” When answered “yes” Bill replied “well I
think that’s all we can ask.” Anecdotal accounts often erroneously say
that this individual went on to “become one of the best 12th Steppers
in NY.” It’s not true. The book “Pass It On” (pg 318) states that
“although he soon disappeared, (repeat “soon disappeared”) his
presence created a precedent for the Third Tradition.”

As an item of possible interest, not long ago the mark-up manuscript
used to record the final editorial changes for the 1st Ed Big Book was
auctioned off at over 1 1/2 million dollars. That manuscript was given
to Barry L as a gift by Lois W.

About the Big Book and other literature

There is no mention at all in the Big Book that other literature
should conformance to what is written in it. To the contrary, in its
closing paragraphs it states “Our book is meant to be suggestive only.
We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to
you and to us.”

You will not find rigid conformance between the Big Book and 12&12
which were written by the same author (Bill W) about the same program
of recovery. For example, the 2 chapters in the 12&12 on Steps 6 and 7
are far more expansive on these Steps than the mere 3 paragraphs that
describe them in the Big Book.

From 1951 on, determination of the content of AA literature has been
the product of the process of informed Group Conscience through the
Trustees Literature Committee, Conference Literature Committee and the
participants in the General Service Conferences. In service material
released by GSO, the following was offered:

“Conference-approved”--What It Means to You

The term “Conference-approved” describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by GSO. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
AA principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
AA Fellowship.

The term has no relation to material not published by GSO. It does not
imply Conference disapproval of other material about AA. A great deal
of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and AA
does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may
not read.

Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid AA experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
AAs from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production.

Cheers
Arthur

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Markle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 7:56 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Living Sober book

In my home group where I got sober, we used this book for newcomers
and included the discussions from it for our Beginners Meeting.

My understanding for discussions, it is most often used, if not
intended for, beginners in sobriety. Although, contrary to your
observations, when studied in context with the Big Book I find no such
conflicts as you suggest. And highly recommend that the literature is
relevant even for us "long-timers".

The passage/apparent "opposite" is not in conflict, if you follow the
context from the Big Book to which you refer.

Others here can speak more directly and factually, especially as to
the authorship . . . I do know a couple of things, but not first hand.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of and25g
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:28 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Living Sober book

I have a question about the history behind one of the
conference-approved books AA has today which is "Living Sober."
Recently, my home group has decided to read and study this book once a
month at our meeting. I find many suggestions in this book which are
sort of complete opposites of what our Big Book promises for
alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your
house, avoiding people, places, and things ...

I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by
the Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly
appreciated.

Thank you!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2474|2464|2005-06-12 13:43:00|TH|Story Source|
I recently obtained a few second edition Big Books, and one of them [8th
printing, 1966] had a typed story titled "The Reason You Were Chosen for
This Work." folded up in the pages. It starts, "God, in His wisdom selected
this group of men and women to be purveyors of His goodness."

I am curious as to what the source of this story is. I've been around the
rooms a few twenty-four hours and had not come across it.

Tommy in Baton Rouge.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2475|2475|2005-06-17 12:20:54|Glenn Chesnut|Moderator gone till July 6|
AAHistoryLovers,

Today is June 17, 2005. Please don't send any more message to be posted until after July 6, 2005

The moderator is going out of town for two and a half weeks (campgrounds in Newport, Pennsylvania and Bardstown, Kentucky) and will probably not have any access to the internet at all.

If messages build up on the Yahoo group pending message board, they are discarded by the Yahoo computer system after a certain number of days. So you will be in danger of losing your message completely.

Likewise with email messages to the moderator. My email system will reject messages after it gets too full, and I know it will not have the capacity to handle two and half weeks worth of messages.

Thanks much!

Glenn Chesnut (moderator)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2476|2476|2005-06-17 12:24:09|Glenn Chesnut|I Am Responsible statement|
Message from Ernest Kurtz, to share with the AAHistoryLovers group:

New Grapevine Book reflects the theme of the 2005 International
Convention “I Am Responsible: The Hand of AA”

Thirty-eight stories in this volume look at the impact of AA’s Responsibility Declaration and what it means to individuals and to the Fellowship as a whole.

Articles written by AA members and eminent nonalcoholic friends explore
what it’s like to take responsibility for ourselves and others.

http://www.aagrapevine.org/catalog/shop/booksub.html



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 2477|2477|2005-06-17 12:31:35|John|The Brattleboro Retreat|
As a previous "almost Vermonter" noted, the mental
health and alcoholism treatment facility in
Brattleboro, Vermont has always been known as the
Brattleboro Retreat, not the Brattleboro Asylum.

This is the place a judge nearly committed Ebby
Thatcher to. It is a private institution, and was
widely used for people in mental and emotional
distress and people suffering from addictions.
People who were severely mentally ill were usually
committed to the Vermont State Hospital in Waterbury.

The Retreat has been around for nearly a century, I
believe. Many Vermont AAs have been through the
treatment programs there.

I went to AA meetings there on many occasions in the
1980s, and there are still at least a couple of AA
meetings held there every week.

Jan S.
Burlington, Vermont

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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| 2478|2468|2005-06-17 12:34:39|ArtSheehan|Re: Origional First ed. BB covers?|
Dust jackets issued with facsimile 1st Ed Big Books may lead you to
think they are genuine since they may show "Works Publishing Company"
and "$3.50" as the source and price on the inside fold of the dust
jacket.

Check the bottom of both inside folds for the word "reprint" in small
print or a phrase such as "source and price no longer apply." The
other giveaway is the presence of a year other than 1939.

Cheers
Arthur
| 2479|2451|2005-06-17 12:34:43|philip luppy|Re: William James & spiritual experience|
Here is a biographical entry from World Authors 1900-1950.


Biography from World Authors 1900-1950 (1996)
Copyright (c) by The H. W. Wilson Company. All rights reserved.
James, William
Jan. 11, 1842-Aug. 26, 1910
JAMES, WILLIAM (January 11, 1842-August 26, 1910), American psychologist, philosopher, long a professor at Harvard, and elder brother of the novelist Henry James (1843-1916), was born in New York City, the son of Henry James, Sr. (1811-1882) and the former Mary Walsh.
William James was one of the most distinguished and influential psychologists of all time; his pioneer work both in psychology and philosophy is still continually referred to. He may fairly be called the father of both introspective psychology and (ironically in view of his religious bent) behaviorism. He is also a chief father of literary modernism--and even, perhaps, of what is as yet uncertainly called "post-modernism" in literature and the arts. He may plausibly be seen as standing behind not only behaviorism and introspectionism, but also phenomenology and process philosophy--and therefore process theology.
James's peculiar upbringing was as crucial for him as it was for Henry and the rest of his siblings, his brothers Wilkinson and Robertson and sister Alice. The father, Henry James, Sr., was himself a remarkable man. As Ralph Barton Perry, William James's biographer, wrote in the Dictionary of American Biography, Henry Sr. bequeathed to his eldest son his "exuberance, his candor, his tenderness, and [his] nervous sensitivity and instability."
William James, like his brother, attended several schools in Europe and in New York while he was still small. Then, in 1855, he was taken off to Europe once again, as part of a unique educational experiment. There, they were educated by various tutors and in establishments all remarkable and all enlightened, but in different ways. They spent time in Geneva, London, Paris (where the ideas of the French socialist-anarchist Fourier were indelibly etched into Williams's consciousness), Boulogne, back in America at Newport, and then in Switzerland (again) and in Germany. These children were being prepared, not to be enlightened by the world, but to enlighten it. Two out of the five of them did so.
When James was ready for the world he hesitated between being a painter and a scientist. When study at the studio of William M. Hunt assured him (but not others) that he could not attain proficiency, he entered the Lawrence Scientific School (1861), where he studied chemistry, comparative anatomy, and physiology. In late 1864 he entered the Harvard Medical School, and five years later gained his M.D.--but he never practiced as a physician. Rather, he chose to remain at Harvard for thirty-two years as, consecutively, instructor in physiology, then psychologist, and finally philosopher.
James's medical studies were twice interrupted: in 1865 when, believing that he might become a field-naturalist, he joined Louis Agassiz's expedition to the Amazon basin in search of zoological specimens, and in 1867 by a journey to Europe in quest of a cure for his fluctuating mental health. Perry, in his Dictionary of American Biography piece on his old friend, explained that "before manhood" James was "already uprooted": he "had in fact formed the habit of perpetual uprooting, of oscillation between ennui and the relish of adventure." This was a polite means of saying that James's state alternated between depression and over-excitement (or "mania"). James's control and subsequent use of his illness in the investigation of human behavior, at a time when there were no anti-depressants or anti-psychotic drugs available to treat it, was hardly short of miraculous. While in Europe, where he was for eighteen months between 1867 and 1868, he took two "cures," at Teplitz and at
Divonne. He read much in philosophy and in German literature, and managed to return to America to obtain his medical degree; but he was by then profoundly depressed.
Although he was not thirty, his eyesight and his back were both giving him abundant trouble. As Perry declared, "the amount and the quality of the reading on science, literature and philosophy which James accomplished during these years of supposed incapacity exceeded the aspirations of most able-bodied men." Then, in about 1870, occurred the event that confirmed him in his work: he was "delivered" by a reading of the neo-Kantian and empiricist French philosopher Charles Renouvier's 1859 Traite de Psychologie Rationelle.
James, in Some Problems of Philosophy, wrote that Renouvier's empiricist defense of free will had delivered him from "the monistic superstition in which I had grown up." Monism, like so many other philosophical terms, has been used in two rather different senses. Both senses agree that there is only one thing or one substance, but the first, as found in Spinoza and then in Hegel and finally in late nineteenth-century absolute idealism, concentrates upon unity, upon the notion of the universe as a single entity. James's (and Bertrand Russell's) neutral monism asserts that bodies and minds are "differently collected assemblages of things of one kind," but concentrates on diversity, on the notion of many entities--or, as James put in one of his titles, that the universe is "pluralistic." James and Russell claimed that phenomena could be analyzed in terms of a common "neutral" entity ("neutral stuff") and thus gave precedence to neither body nor mind.
For James, "neutral monism" was the vehicle he used to explore the problem that had intrigued him from the outset: "the union. . .of the empirical temper and method of science with the essential ideals and beliefs of religion," in the words of Ralph Barton Perry. The vein of consistency that runs through his work as a whole is his vision of all manifestations in terms of their function: of them not as whatever they might be, but of whatever they did.
"Dive back into the flux," recommended Henri Bergson, who influenced him. James himself commented: "if you want to know reality, that flux which Platonism, in its strange belief that only the immutable is excellent, has always spurned: turn your face towards sensation, that fleshbound thing which rationalism has always loaded with abuse." So James, by his anti-rationalism in an age in which scientism and neo-positivism were coming to the fore, exercised an enormous influence upon the religiously minded (who felt themselves assailed by atheist reductionism), the sensitive and the "tender-minded" (his phrase)--and he therefore influenced, quite often directly, the vast majority of creative writers, a section of humanity perpetually in search, as he was, of the meaning of existence.
Much of James's legacy to literature was by the natural course of diffusion--but much, too, was direct. His version of pragmatism influenced history itself; his classic The Principles of Psychology did more than any other single work to establish it as a discipline; his equally classic The Varieties of Religious Experience lay behind all the later attempts to judge religion in terms of its function; and his analysis of the nature of consciousness--he coined the term "stream of consciousness"--directly affected both his brother's practice and much of the fiction of the twentieth century.
"Stream of consciousness" was not applied to English literature until British novelist May Sinclair applied it, somewhat inaccurately, to the fiction of Dorothy M. Richardson. James himself had written, in the epoch-making Chapter IX of The Principles of Psychology ("The Stream of Thought"): "I can only define 'continuous' as that which is without breach, crack, or division." "Consciousness, then, does not appear to itself chopped up in bits. Such words as 'chain' or 'train' do not describe it fitly as it presents itself in the first instance. It is nothing jointed; it flows." Henry James and then other writers (Virginia Woolf, James Joyce, William Faulkner) understood the distinction between the merely photographic or mimetic nature of the so-called Sekundenstil (recording of each second as it passes) practiced by the German naturalists Arno Holz and Johannes Schlaf and James's more subtle account. The attempt to capture the essence or nature of consciousness was one of the
prime features of modernism.
James's pragmatism had a wide influence, particularly on John Dewey, who eventually transformed it into the closely related "instrumentalism." This can be contrasted with the work of Charles Sanders Peirce, who coined the term "pragmaticism" to distinguish his own philosophy from that of James, who had borrowed the term "pragmatism" from him. In Ward Smith's definition: "James's [different] view can be fairly expressed without too gross over-simplification in the following compact way: that if a concept literally means no more nor less than what you do with it, then its truth must consist in no more nor less than a successful doing."
The popular view that James viewed the truth of a concept entirely in terms of its function, its "cash value," is not quite accurate; but that was its effect upon most of the world. The emphasis, in his middle and in his later philosophy, is on the future. The reason that the later philosophy has often been described as "esoteric" is that much of it is in line with the form of thinking that is called mystical, and thus despised by rationalists. James was working towards a theory in which concepts and percepts (but he believed that a concept was really a percept "functioning in a certain way") were essentially predictive. Thus yet another vein running through his work is consistent: his psychology, his pragmatism, his radial empiricism--all these were, essentially, philosophies of hope.
In The Varieties of Religious Experience James pointed out, in the face of the hope-denying "supersitious monism" which so distressed him, that where belief transcends scientific evidence, it is necessary to "go beyond the evidence" and, at the same time, to trust to the evidence of inner experience, to give it a place. He did not believe that the scientific method in itself, as applied to affairs external to the mind, was sufficient to deal with inner experience. He was not complacent about this. Religious belief was to be seen in the first place in terms of its ability to enrich the spirit and to affect behavior. He thought that empirical evidence tended towards, but did not yet "prove," the fact that religious experience might originate in the "unconscious" and, behind that, in a cosmic "mother sea" that he equated with God. God and humanity were for him united in a struggle against the defects of the universe. "And could paradise properly be good," he asked in his essay "The
Dilemma of Determinism" (in The Will to Believe), "in the absence of a sentient principle by which the goodness was perceived?"
Poor health made James's life a difficult one, and his marriage on July 10, 1878, to the former Alice Howe Gibbens--by whom he had three sons and a daughter (and a child that died in infancy)--was crucial for him. As Perry wrote, she "was distinguished by the serenity of her disposition, as well as by her wit and beauty. . .the companionship which his family life provided were in no small measure responsible for the fruitfulness of James's subsequent career." Ward Smith adds, "Whatever one may say about [his] doctrines. . .one thing is almost universally admitted. It is impossible to read him without learning to love and admire the man. Even where you feel he is entirely wrong you are forced to respect him. Every line he wrote breathes a spirit of uncompromising intellectual honesty."

Suggested Reading: Daedalus Summer 1968; Etc Spring 1985; New England Quarterly June 1988; New Republic May 9, 1983; Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin December 1990; Philosophy East and West July 1987; Thought December 1979; Yale Review Summer 1954. Allen, G. W. William James: A Biography, 1967; Bixler, J. S. Religion in the Philosophy of Williams James, 1926; Boutroux, H. William James, 1912; Cotkin, G. William James: Public Philosopher, 1990; Dictionary of American Biography, 1932; De Bono, E. (ed.) The Great Thinkers, 1976; Flournoy, T. The Philosophy of William James, 1917; Kallen, H. M. William James and Henri Bergson, 1914; James, A. Alice James, Her Brothers--Her Journal, 1972; Lovejoy, A. O. The Thirteen Pragmatism and Other Essays, 1963; Lentricchia, F. Ariel and the Police, 1988; Morris, L. R. William James: The Message of a Modern Mind, 1950; Perry, R. B. The Thought and Character of William James, 2 vols., 1935; Poirier, R. Poetry and Pragmatism, 1992; Roth, J.
K. Freedom and the Moral Life: The Ethics of William James, 1969; Royce, J. William James and Other Essays, 1911; Smith, J. E. Purpose and Thought: The Meaning of Pragmatism, 1978; Turner, J. E. An Examination of William James's Philosophy, 1919; Urmson, J. O. (ed.) Concise Encyclopedia of Western Philosophy and Philosophers, 1960; Wild, J. The Radical Empiricism of William James, 1969. Bibliography--McDermott, J. D. Annotated Bibliography of the Writings of William James in The Writings of William James: A Comprehensive Edition, 1977.

Selected Works: Collected edition--The Works of William James, 1975-. Philosophy and psychology--The Principles of Psychology, 2 vols. 1890; Psychology (Briefer Course) 1892; Is Life Worth Living? 1896 (lecture); The Will to Believe, 1897; Human Immortality: Two Supposed Objections to the Doctrine, 1898; Talks to Teachers of Psychology, and to Students on Some Life's Ideals, 1899; The Varieties of Relig