6185|6182|2010-01-01 13:43:29|lester gother|Re: Recovery rates|
Hi All,

I have in my hands a survey of the Jersey Group dated January 1, 1940. This
is the mother group of AA in New Jersey which just last month celebrated 70
years. I will copy the results as written on the survey.



Total # contacted: 41

Total who have never taken a drink since joining: 19 > TOTAL SUCCESSFUL:
26

Number who have had only one slip since joining: 8

Number jailing thus far but still members: 6

Number jailed and dropped out: 6

Percentage of complete success: 46.3%

Percentage of successes/ complete or just one slip: 63.4%

Percentage of failures: 36.6%

Total sober time achieved by Jersey Group as a whole: 21years

Growth - 400% from 10 to 40 in last 9 months

Membership spread over 23 towns



I have placed here as failures 5 men who attended only 3 or 4 meetings at
most.

These men I feel, tho exposed to our idea did not take the treatment.

If we include only those who really tried the program for 3 months or more
our percentage of successes rises to 72.2%



13 members have now been dry for a period ranging from 6 months to 3 years.



Some of the members of the group include:



Henry P. (The Unbeliever)

Henry B. (A Different Slant) (Fred on pg. 39 in the BB)

Morgan R. (Spoke on the Gabriel Heatter radio broadcast "We the People")



I hope this sheds some light on the subject that has been questioned since
the second edition was printed in 1955. By the way I was a skeptic until I
did a lot of digging.



LOVE AND SERVICE

Lester Gother

Archivist

Area 44

Northern New Jersey

"HOME OF THE BIG BOOK"
| 6186|6182|2010-01-01 15:55:00|jax760|Re: Recovery rates|
I had done some research related to Bill's success rate assertion found in the foreword to the second edition p.xx that may be of interest to you.

The first instance I had found of Bill quoting success rates was in a letter to a New York Banker in July of 1938.

"Out of the some 200 cases with which we have dealt there seems to be approximately 100 recoveries. So far as any of my doctor friends know, nothing like this has ever happened in the world before with alcoholics commonly regarded as incurable by the medical profession . . . "Letter from Bill Wilson to Mr. Charles Parcelles, July 1, 1938.

Shortly after Bill repeats the claim in a letter to Dr. Cabot of Massachusetts General Hospital.

"We have never developed any accurate statistical information but I should say we have dealt with about 200 cases in all, almost half of whom seem to have recovered." Letter from Bill Wilson to Dr. Richard Cabot – July 1938

The first time Bill publicly disclosed AA success rates was at the Rockefeller Dinner in 1940.

"To continue with what had happened out in Akron. By the time the book was published last April there were about one hundred of us, the majority of them in the West. Although we have no exact figures, in counting heads recently, we think it fair to state that of all the people who have been seriously interested in this thing since the beginning, one-half have had no relapse at all. About 25% are having some trouble, or have had some trouble, but in our judgment will recover. The other 25% we do not know about." Excerpts of the Rockefeller Dinner Feb 8, 1940

There actually is proof (both pre and post release) of Bill's claims.
Note the significance of the part of the statement given at the dinner "...in counting heads recently..."

*On January 1, 1940 the New Jersey Group of AA (A.A. Group #4) conducted a survey of its membership which was used in part to provide A.A. success rates of the for the Rockefeller dinner. The survey lists 41 names, addresses, and the number of slips for the members, many of them well known pioneers. After the list of names the following summary is given.

Total members contacted – 41
Total members who have never taken a drink since joining – 19
Number who have had only one slip since joining – 9
Total successful 26

Total failing thus far but still members – 6
Number failed and dropped out – 6
Number of complete successes – 46.3%
Number of successes complete or just one slip – 63.4%
Percentage of failures – 36.6%

Total sober time achieved by Jersey Group as a whole 21 years
Growth 400% - 10 to 40 in the last 9 months.

Membership spread over 23 towns.

I have placed here as failures 5 men who attended only 3 or 4 meetings at most. These men I feel, tho (sic) exposed to our idea did not take the treatment. If we include only those who really tried the program for 3 months or more our percentage of successes rises to 72.2% - End of Summary.

Its clear to this writer that the NJ Group Survey was taken in preperation for Bill's talk at the dinner. He also mentions statistics from the Chicago group later in his Rockefeller talk. Interestingly enough the 75% success rate often attributed to early AA in Akron would appear to be somewhat limiting based on the NJ survey. The groups in both South Orange and Chicago (and perhaps the rest of the fellowship) were at that time achieving similar success rates. Strong program and one to one sponsorship of those "that really tried" were vitally important to achieving the early success rates for "real alcoholics." (Big Book p.21)

As Glenn points out the report issued in January of 2008 (AA Recovery Outcomes) is most informative. Of importance to my research was the note found in the second edition of the Big Book on an unnumbered page @168 preceding the personal stories. If you do the math Bill's recovery rate assertions are again validated.

"When first published in 1939, this book contained twenty-nine
stories about alcoholics.
To ensure maximum identification with the greatest number
of readers, the new second edition (1955) carries a consider-
ibly enlarged story section, as above described.
Concerning the original twenty-nine case histories, it is a
deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that twenty-two have
apparently made a full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these
fifteen have remained completely sober for an average of sev-
eral years each, according to our best knowledge and belief."

*Excerpts from Chapter V of the manuscript The Golden Road of Devotion; " The Rockefeller Connection"
| 6187|6187|2010-01-01 16:27:47|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea|
EARLY NEW JERSEY:

This is in response to Lester Gother's posting of a survey of the New Jersey Group dated January 1, 1940 which deals with a small group of only 41 people, but nevertheless seems to show an outstanding success rate when we look at the survey's initial claims, even though the mathematics seem to be a bit off:

Total members who have never taken a drink since joining -- 19
Number who have had only one slip since joining-- 9
Total successful 26
 
How do we get 26 out of 19 and 9? I begin to have less confidence in a set of statistics when the mathematical calculations shown in the document don't work.

But anyway, it is only when we read all the way down to the end of the survey that we realize that 30 of these 41 people in the database have only been attending AA meetings for nine months or less -- many of them much less.

So the numbers in the database are too few, and the period of time over which they have been tracked is FAR TOO SHORT in three quarters of these cases to make any strong claims about long term success rates.

- - - -

People who defend the notion of extraordinarily high success rates in early AA like to cite the New Jersey document nevertheless, because that particular set of data fits their theories.  This is called cherry picking however, because they are neglecting to look at other sets of data from that early period which do not at all support their theories.

- - - -

EARLY MINNEAPOLIS:

So let us look instead at the figures for the early Minneapolis group, which are much more carefully assembled, and cover a much longer period. These are contained in an article from the Grapevine which was reprinted in Wally P., Back to Basics Instructors Manual, rev. ed. April 2002.

You see, the problem is that people in early A.A. often kept their statistics in forms totally different from what is customarily used today. We have what appear to be some fairly careful statistics kept in Minneapolis, for example, from 1943 to 1945, given in this article in the Grapevine. But as we shall see, even though we can make a few useful observations, these figures are in fact very difficult to translate into a modern format.
 
The headline says they were achieving a 75% success rate, which is in fact incorrect. They liked the figures "50%" and "75%" so much that they tended to adjust numbers in that direction whenever possible. This was not necessarily to make themselves look good. The actual figures given in the article below the headline show a 77% to 83% overall success rate, which in fact is actually higher.
 
The problem is that the way they have manipulated the figures to make them come out that way is entirely different from the way in which success and retention rate figures are calculated in all the modern data.
 
The way we usually give success rate figures in modern studies of AA, is to take a large group of people who have been encouraged to attend a few AA meetings (many of them perhaps court ordered, and others trucked in rather unwillingly from treatment centers run by psychiatrists who are hostile to AA and let their patients know how silly they think AA is). Now if 77% to 83% of these people were to decide that they actually WANTED to quit drinking, and threw themselves wholeheartedly into AA, and were found to still be clean and sober three years later, and even five years later, this would be quite an extraordinary accomplishment indeed.
 
And there are people today who would want us to believe that there was some version of early AA which can take one hundred court appointed people who had been convicted of drunk driving, and can turn seventy-five of them into sober and dedicated AA members, "just like in the good old days."
 
But let's look a little harder at the Minneapolis statistics. Large numbers of the people who were in their early months were going back out and getting drunk again, and only a very small percentage indeed of these people ever came back and tried to get sober again. And they were excluding from the count all those who had not completed their first 90 days successfully (where the number who quit and got drunk again was presumably very high indeed, probably close to an 80% failure rate, for the part of the curve which they did reveal was clearly an exponential curve).
 
But their people with 3 years, 4 years, and 5 years sobriety were all staying sober. This counterbalanced all the newcomers who were failing to make it. So in any given year, they could truthfully say that 77% to 83% of THEIR TOTAL MEMBERSHIP was staying sober.
 
That did not at all mean that 77% to 83% of the newcomers who walked into their meetings for the first time were going to end up permanently sober.
 
So for example, of those who had completed their first 90 days, but had not yet completed a full six months, the Minneapolis chart tells us that 52% of these people went out and got drunk again. And between six months and nine months, there was still a hefty 30% who went back out and got drunk. This was an incredibly high failure rate.
 
These figures from 1943 to 1945 are not better than modern AA. In fact, based on the figures in the Triennial Reports, this was WORSE than modern AA. We do a whole lot better than that nowadays, at least with the people who have been in the program between three months and nine months, where their problems in Minneapolis seem to have been greatest.
 
The A.A. Grapevine, August 1946, Page 1
Minneapolis Record Indicates that 75% Are Successful in A.A.
 
The Minneapolis Group, in March, 1943, inaugurated a system for keeping a record of the sobriety of members from three months on up. As a result, the following exact percentages have been arrived at:
 
For the Year 1945
 
5-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped
4-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped
3-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped
2-yr. members ... 89% successful ... 11% slipped
18-mo. members ... 90% successful ... 10% slipped
1-yr. members ... 80% successful ... 20% slipped
9-mo. members ... 82% successful ... 18% slipped
6-mo. members ... 70% successful ... 30% slipped
3-mo. members ... 48% successful ... 52% slipped
(Of those who slipped in 1945, only 16-1/2% have worked back to any degree of sobriety.)
 
Over-all Percentages
 
1943 78% successful 22% slipped
1944 83% successful 17% slipped
1945 77% successful 23% slipped

- - - -

MODERN A.A.

In the modern AA figures -- see http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf%c2%a0-- we follow newcomers month by month for an entire year, and we don't rely on whether the person says that he or she has been continuously dry, but merely record continued attendance at AA meetings. And then our figures record how many have been attending AA meetings for over one year, over five years, over ten years, and so on. Since it is only rarely that people continue to attend AA meetings over a long period of time if they are still drinking regularly (although we certainly had a couple of people in my home group back in the past who kept on drinking for ten to fifteen years before they finally got sober!), it is clear that MODERN A.A. HAS A VERY IMPRESSIVE LONG TERM SUCCESS RATE.

- - - -
 
EARLY PHILADELPHIA:

The early Philadelphia figures are a lot like the early New Jersey figures, that is, the majority of the successes they are claiming, which they are using to claim such a prodigiously high success rate, are based on cases where the people have only been dry for three or four months (or in one case just a single month).  There is no workable way to compare them very well with modern AA retention rate figures like the ones just mentioned. But here is what the Philadelphia figures said:

Philadelphia A.A. Statistics 1940-1941
 
The Philadelphia A.A. group was formed February 20, 1940
 
Special Report On AA Work At The Philadelphia General Hospital
 
December 13, 1940
 
The following is the complete experience of the Philadelphia A.A. Group with patients of the Philadelphia General Hospital since March 15. On this list are included only those men who have attended at least two or three A.A. meetings and have signified their intention of following the A.A. program.
 
Brief notes on the various individuals follow (the original letter had full names & addresses):
 
Joseph A. - Dry seven months, no trouble.
Frank B. - Dry five months, one slip after he left group one month ago.
Herbert C. B. - Dry four months, no trouble.
Joshua D. B. - Probably psychopathic; continuous slips.
Charles J. C. - Dry nine months, no trouble.
John D. - Dry four months through Philadelphia General Hospital and Byberry.
Joseph D. - Dry four months, no trouble.
George G. - Dry one month, no trouble.
John H. H. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization.
William K. - Dry four months, no trouble.
Alfred K. - Dry four months, no trouble.
Arthur T. McM. - Dry eight months, no trouble.
William P. - Continuous after two hospitalizations, only attended five meetings, no work.
Harry McC. - Dry eleven months, one slip two months ago, hospitalization then.
James S. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization.
George K. - Continuous trouble up to two months ago, first hospital May.
C. M. M. - Dry nine months, no trouble.
Hugh O'H. - Dry two months, no trouble.
Edmonds P. - Dry nine months, hospitalization recent, trouble since.
William J. P. - Dry three months, no trouble.
James R. - Dry five months, no trouble.
William R. - Dry six weeks, no trouble.
Carl R. - Dry eight weeks.
Biddle S. - Dry four months, hospital trouble now dry one month.
Thomas S. - Dry four months, one slip.
David W. - Dry seven months, no trouble.
William W. - Dry nine months, no trouble.
Margery W. - Dry three months, no trouble.
 
Nineteen out of twenty-eight who have come through the Philadelphia General Hospital have had no trouble. Of the nine who have had trouble, five have been with the group and had trouble previous to hospitalization.
 
This list was made at the request of Jack Alexander, writer for the Saturday Evening Post.
 
(Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon
(Signed) C. D. Saul, M. D. - Chief resident, Saint Luke's Hospital
(Signed) Philadelphia General Hospital, By: John F. Stouffer M. D. - Chief Psychiatrist
 
*************************
 
From:
AA
Philadelphia Group
Post Office Box 332
William Penn Annex
 
To:
Alcoholic Foundation
30 Vesey Street
New York, N. Y.
December 14, 1940
 
Gentlemen:
 
We believe that the time has arrived when we can give you a preliminary statement of the results of the work of Alcoholics Anonymous in Philadelphia since its inception in this city on February 20, 1940. This in effect is a ten months' report but for all practical purposes it can be considered only nine months because about a month was occupied in working out methods of prosecuting the activities.
 
According to the records of the Group, which have been kept with reasonable accuracy, ninety-nine men and women have during this period attended at least two meetings of the A. A. Group. In other words, they have had a fair opportunity to familiarize themselves with the A. A. program of recovery as given at the Thursday night meetings held at Saint Luke's and Children's
Hospital.
 
Of the ninety-nine, seventy have remained dry without any slip at all; thirteen others are recovering from one or more slips, and sixteen have slipped without recovery up to the present time. It is not impossible that some of these sixteen may yet return to the Group.
 
Of the seventy, who have been dry without slips, thirty-nine have been dry from one to three months; seventeen from three to six months; twenty-five from six months to a year, and five from one to three years.
 
Obviously these five were not dried up through the activities of the Philadelphia A. A. Group but have recovered from alcoholism in other localities and through other means.
 
You can see that the Philadelphia A. A. Group has a core of thirty men who, we have every reason to believe, will never drink again. Seventeen more have gotten by the three months' critical period. It has been our observation that the first three months are the most difficult and that the man who gets by that period has every reason to believe that he is on the road to complete recovery.
 
We are even more sanguine of results which shall be achieved since we succeeded in opening our clubhouse about one month ago. It is being used extensively, especially by the unmarried men and is proving helpful not only as a social center but as a base for the spreading of the A. A. message.
 
We can testify as physicians to the increasing interest in A. A. work among members of the medical fraternity and are grateful for the opportunity that the A. A. has given us of assisting in the recovery of the unfortunate victims of alcoholism.
 
(Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon
(Signed) C. Dudley Saul, Chief Resident Saint Luke's Hospital
 
*************************
 
Statistical Record of Philadelphia Alcoholics Anonymous Group (dated 9/29/41)
 
The Philadelphia A. A. Group was formed February 27, 1940, with seven men as a nucleus. Six of these are definitely recovered cases.
 
We consider a man or woman an active member of A. A. when they have been dry in the group two months and have attended at least six general meetings.
 
We now have an ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP of one hundred and thirteen alcoholics, eighty-three of whom have not had a drink since their first A. A. meeting.  Five of these have been dry from two to four years, twenty-seven dry from one to two years, forty-one dry from six to twelve months and twenty-six dry three to six months.
 
Twenty-three of these active members came directly from the Philadelphia General Hospital, thirteen from other hospitals and institutions.
 
There have been only twenty-three active members who do not appear to be recovering. These are not included in the above figures. Neither are the fifty other men and women who are now in the process of becoming members.
 
This gives us a total general membership of Two Hundred men and women.
 
To the best of our knowledge, the foregoing is correct.
 
(Signed) Dr. A. Weise Hammer
(Signed) Dr. C. Dudley Saul
Medical directors

- - - -

MODERN A.A. RETENTION RATES

And again, I would ask you to look at all of the data about early AA success rates collected in http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf and analyzed in detail in pages 14-18 and 22-23.

Please, YOU HAVE TO DO THE WORK required to look at ALL the surviving documents from the early AA period, and you have to read and think about "the fine print" in each of those early claims.
 
The important thing to note is how frequently the 50%-75% rule had a guarding phrase added: "of those who tried" or "of those who genuinely wanted to stop drinking."  And this was coupled with the admission that only 2 or 3 out every 5 people whom they tried working with seemed to them to "really try."
 
If the 2 out of 5 people formula is followed, this means that in early AA, only 50% of the 40% who "really tried" actually got sober and stayed sober the first time they tried AA, which means only a 20% success rate the first time around.
 
We can compare this with the retention figures which we see in http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf which indicate that in modern AA, 56% of the people who have completed 90 days of attending AA meetings, will still be attending AA meetings at the end of the year.

I'm not trying to make early AA "look bad," merely trying to point out that we need to quit trying to compare apples with oranges. The truth seems to be that, in so far as we can put early AA figures and modern AA figures on the same statistical basis, they did pretty good back in the old days, and WE STILL DO EXTREMELY GOOD TODAY, maybe even a little better (because of more people with many more years of experience who can serve as guides and sponsors and good examples to the newcomers).

The main thing though, is to kill this total nonsense which can still be seen in places on the web, going back originally to Richard K. <goldentextpro@aol.com> (goldentextpro at aol.com) and his supporters, see Message 1351

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1351

Richard K. insisted that modern AA has only a 2.4 - 4.8% success rate, based partly on a total failure to understand the statistics in the A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989. But his backers and supporters started vigorously posting those figures (sometimes abbreviated as "modern AA has been proven to only have a 5% success rate") every place on the internet which would let them post messages.

Their argument today is "but of course the 5% success rate figure is true, you see it cited everywhere on the internet so it MUST be true"!!!!
| 6188|6181|2010-01-01 20:55:22|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Buddhism and AA|
From Ted G. and Baileygc23

- - - -

From: Ted G. = "Edward" <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p.81 has a
reference to a Thai Buddhist abbot approving
the Twelve Steps, quoted in As Bill Sees It
p.223.

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Interest in Buddhism went back of AA into the
Oxford Group period. In his historical novel
Wide is the Gate (1943), Upton Sinclair described
Oxford Groupers holding s�ances in London with
a self-proclaimed medium who claimed to channel
the spirits of the Indian chief Tecumseh and a
long-dead Ceylonese Buddhist monk.

This account (from AA Literature) is also worth
reading: an excerpt from the author of the
"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the
Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition.

GV: Have you had periods in sobriety that were
emotionally difficult?

Dr. Earle: Oh my, yes. So did Bill -- you know
that Bill had a long depression. Let me tell
you how I got at some emotional rest. Years
ago, a medical college in the South asked me
to go to Saigon as a visiting professor to
help the Vietnamese set up a new department
in gynecology and obstetrics.

Before I left, I went back to see Bill and Lois
and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about
eight or nine days back in New York before I
went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and
on the way there he said, "You know, Earle,
I've been sober longer than anyone else in our
organization. After all I was sober six months
when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have
too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down
in the dumps a hell of a lot."

So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much
serenity either." I was sober by this time
maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said,
"Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia,
see if you can investigate firsthand, the
various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism,
Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and
ancestral worship and the whole shebang."

And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he
said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we
can find something in those religions. After
all, we've taken from William James, we've
taken from all the Christian religions. Let's
see what these others have."

So I hugged Bill and got on the plane and went
to Asia. I had three or four rest and relaxation
periods a year but I didn't rest and relax. I
was determined to find something that would
bring peace and serenity to me. I spent a lot
of time in Nepal and in Indonesia. I spent time
in India.

I went into these places looking, looking,
looking for serenity. I spent two or three
years just driving to find out something. I
tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita,
the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on
the southeast coast of India, run by a very
famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred
and fifty East Indians there. I was the only
Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti
-- that's a white skirt that men wear --
and I wore one like the rest of them did. We
all ate on the ground on great big banana
leaves over a yard long. There would be food
on the banana leaves and you'd make it into a
ball with your right hand and throw it into
your mouth. There were no knives or forks at
all, so I did what they did. I didn't like the
taste very much but I did it.

I happened to be there at the time of the Feast of Dewali. Dewali is like our time of Easter; it's the time of renewal. We were awakened on the early morning of Dewali around two o'clock. This ashram was located at the base of a mountain known as Arunachal. Now Arunachal in Hindi means sun, and the myth goes that one of the gods, Rama, lives inside of this mountain.

We were told we had to walk around the base of this mountain-which was a ten mile walk-and as we walked, we were yelling to Rama. If you do it in a very firm and believing way, it's said that Rama will come up and wave at you and bless you. I was there, and I did it. We walked around and we were yelling "Rama, Rama, Rama" hoping that Rama would come up and bless us all. They all walked in their bare feet. I didn't, I wore my shoes. Gosh, I was tired. But I walked all night long, the whole distance.

After that event, I came back to my little apartment in Saigon, ready to return to my medical work. I was so beaten because I'd been driving and searching and clenching my fists for almost three years (and I kept writing to Bill about all this, you know). And I came into my apartment and I suddenly collapsed down onto the floor. I lay there breathing kind of heavily and I said to myself, "Oh to hell with serenity, I don't care if it ever comes."

And I meant it. And do you know what happened? All of a sudden the craving to find serenity utterly evaporated-and there it was. Serenity. The trouble was the search . . . looking out there for what was right here.

You know, we only have this given second. There's always now. Once I realized that, serenity became mine. Now -- I'm speaking about emotions -- I haven't sought one single thing since that day because it's all right here. I often say to people at meetings. "You're trying to find peace of mind out there. I don't blame you, but it isn't out there. It's here. Right here."

Now do I think there is a supreme being, a God? Sure I do. Of course. But do I have any religious beliefs? No. Religion demands that you do certain things and my life in AA isn't like that. AA is a very loose-Jointed organization. People say there is only one way to work the program. That's crazy. We talk about the "suggested" Steps, which are guides to recovery, not absolutes. Chapter five of the Big Book says "no one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles." If we had all the members of AA standing here, everyone would have a different idea what AA is all about. Bill's idea was different from Dr. Bob's, yours will bedifferent from mine. And yet they're all based on one thing and that is: don't drink, and use the Twelve Steps in your own way.

- - - -

SEE ALSO HIS BIOGRAPHY IN THE WEB SITE ON
THE AUTHORS OF THE STORIES IN THE BIG BOOK:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

Dr. Earl M. San Francisco Bay area, California
"Physician Heal Thyself"
2nd edition p. 393, 3rd edition p. 345, 4th edition p. 301

Earle had his last day of drinking and using drugs on June 15, 1953. An A.A. friend, Harry, took him to his first meeting the following week, the Tuesday Night Mill Valley A.A. group, which met in Wesley Hall at the Methodist Church. There were only five people there, all men: a butcher, a carpenter, a baker, and his friend Harry H, a mechanic/inventor. He loved A.A. from the start, and though he has been critical of the program at times, his devotion has remained constant.

Described in his story heading as a psychiatrist and surgeon, he was qualified in many fields. During his long career, he has been a prominent professor of obstetrics and gynecology, and an outstanding clinician at the University of California at San Francisco. He was a fellow of the American College of Surgeons and of the International College of Surgeons, a diplomat of the American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology, board-certified psychiatrist, vice-president of the American Association of Marital and Family Therapists, and a lecturer on human sexuality.

He was raised in San Francisco, but was born on August 3, 1911, in Omaha, Nebraska, and lived there until he was ten. His parents were alcoholics. In Omaha they lived on the wrong side of the tracks, and he wore hand-me-down clothes from relatives. He was ashamed of this, and could not begin to accept it until years later. He revealed none of this in his story. Instead he talked about how successful he had been in virtually everything he had done. He said he lost nothing that most alcoholics lose, and described his skid row as the skid row of success.

But in 1989 he wrote an autobiography by the same title, which reveals much more of his story.

During his first year in A.A. he went to New York and met Bill Wilson. They became very close and talked frequently both on the phone and in person. He frequently visited Bill at his home, Stepping Stones. He called Bill one of his sponsors, and said there was hardly a topic they did not discuss in detail. He took a Fifth Step with Bill. And Bill often talked over his depressions with Earle.

In a search for serenity Earle studied and practiced many forms of religion: Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and ancestor worship.

He has long been a strong advocate for the cross-addiction theory, and predicted that over time we would see the evolution of Addictions Anonymous.

When he was sober about ten years, Earle developed resentments against newcomers and began a group in San Francisco for oldtimers. It was called The Forum. He wrote a credo for it designed of ten steps for chemically dependent people. He felt that addiction represents a single disease with many open doors leading to it: alcohol, opiates, amphetamines, cocaine, etc. Most of the Forum members were also devoted A.A. members.

He also established a new kind of A.A. group, which used confrontational techniques. Some A.A. members disliked it intensely, while others seemed to gain a great deal from it.

Many alcoholics make geographic changes when they are drinking. But Earle seems to have made his after achieving sobriety. He has lived in many places, both in this country and abroad, traveled around the world three times, and attended A.A. everywhere he went. He also married several times.

In 1968 he divorced his first wife, Mary, whom he had married in 1940. She once told him she had great respect for him as a doctor, but none as a human being. He admitted that he'd had affairs during the marriage, even after joining A.A. His relationship with their only child, Jane, who was a very successful opera singer, was strained, but he gave her an opportunity to air her feelings in his book. She wrote that when she received the gold medallion at the International Tchaikovsky Voice Competition in Moscow in 1966, a high honor, her father did not attend. Some people told her that it was not easy for him to see her become such a success -- to be so in the public eye. She added that their paths were still separate, but she did not ever totally close a door because he WAS her father.

In the 1960s he was experimenting with encounter and sensitivity awareness groups, which were then in vogue. At one of the encounter marathons he met his second wife, Katie, and within a year they were married and soon moved to Lake Tahoe. They lived separately except for two brief periods, and after a few years were divorced.

Later he accepted a job with the U.S. State Department at the University of Saigon Medical School, in Korea. He spent five years there, after which he returned to San Francisco, hoping to rekindle his marriage to Katie.

In September 1975 he moved to Hazard, Kentucky, to work at the Hazard Appalachian Regional Hospital. There he met his third wife, Freda, thirty years younger than he was. Freda came from a truly humble background. She was the daughter of a miner who had died of black lung disease. She and her six brothers were raised in a typical two-room coal miner's house in Hazard. During his relationship with her and her family he was able to put to rest some ghosts concerning his Nebraska background. This wonderful family helped him to re-evaluate his memories of Omaha.

In 1978 his feet began again to itch again. He accepted short-term job in Napal. When he was offered a long-term assignment Freda and his stepsons did not want to leave Kentucky. Disappointed, he returned to Kentucky, and obtained work as a gynecologist in a family planning clinic, and also lectured to medical students on human sexuality at the University of Louisville Medical School. When he moved again, this time to Kirkland, Washington, Freda again refused to leave Kentucky. They were divorced soon after. They remained friendly and talked to one another on the phone about twice a year.

From all his travels, he always seemed to return to the San Francisco Bay Area. In 1980 he accepted a position as medical director of the Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco. There he met his fourth wife, Mickey. She was a Ph.D. candidate at the Institute. He described her as a vibrant, open, honest, direct woman without pretense, non-threatening, sexually on fire, lacking in prejudice, and tolerant about all aspects of life -- including human sexuality. She was already an Al-Anon member when they met, having been married to an alcoholic. She also made contributions in the field of alcoholism and recovery at Merritt Peralta Chemical Dependence Recovery Hospital in Oakland, California. They married and remained together until her death in 2000. His book is dedicated to her.

I talked to Earle on July 27, 2001. He told me he still gets to an A.A. meeting almost every day. His eyesight is not too good, but otherwise he is full of vim and vigor. Form his voice, I would have taken him for a man of 40. He missed the A.A. International Convention last year because of Mickey's ill health, but he hopes to attend the one in 2005.
| 6189|6155|2010-01-01 20:57:58|Arthur S|Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family's religious beliefs|
An omission on my part - Lois' grandfather
Nathan Clark Burnham, a Swedenborgian minister,
performed the wedding ceremony.

Arthur

- - - -

From: Arthur S
Subject: Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham
family's religious beliefs

A small Swedenborgian factoid:

On January 24, 1918, spurred by rumor that
Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois
were married at the Swedenborgian Church of
the New Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY. The wedding
date was originally scheduled for February 1.
Lois' brother Rogers Burnham was best man (he
was also reputed to be good friends with Bill).

Cheers

Arthur
| 6190|6155|2010-01-02 10:31:31|Arthur S|Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect|
Big Book (pg 125): "We alcoholics are sensitive people"

Baileygc23, message 6169 was not a criticism
of you -- it was a criticism of the way many AA
members seem to take broad-brush and back-handed
swipes at religion.

Bill W's statements to the American Psychiatric Association 105th Annual
Meeting in Montreal (May 1949) noted that:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma.
The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even
this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in
our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely
report the gradual onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may.
Observers once thought A.A. could appeal only to the religiously
susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American
Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can
become remarkably open minded. Of course we speak little of conversion
nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But
conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic
process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works
with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience.
... We like to think Alcoholics Anonymous a middle ground between medicine
and religion, the missing catalyst of a new synthesis. This to the end that
the millions who still suffer may presently issue from their darkness into
the light of day! ..."

[==THIS IS THE INTERESTING PART==]

"I am sure that
none attending this great Hall of Medicine will feel it untoward if I leave
the last word to our silent partner, Religion: God grant us the serenity to
accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and
wisdom to know the difference."

This is a bit of a different context than you originally cited. Bill W did
not distance himself from religion - he wished only to avoid the perception
or action of affiliation. The closest individual friendship Bill had (in
terms of a genuine sponsor) was Father Edward Dowling, a Jesuit priest. Dr
Bob had the same type of friendship with Sister Ignatia, a Catholic Nun.
Bill W and Dr Bob treated them both with respect and affection and did not
consider them pariahs. Bill W also underwent 2 years of personal instruction
with Bishop Fulton J Sheen with the intention of converting to Roman
Catholicism. He later declined to convert reputedly because he did not want
to give the impression of affiliation.

Happy holidays (a contraction of "holy days")

Arthur

- - - -

Original message from: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
Subject: Re: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect

Message #6169 from "Arthur S" was an extremely
lengthy criticism of me for saying, in Message 6165
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6165

"AA is not a Religious organization; there is
no dogma. The one theological proposition is
a power greater than one's self. Even this
concept is forced on no one."

That was a quote from Bill Wilson.

I am sorry if, in Arthur's opinion, Bill Wilson
got the AA position all wrong.
| 6191|6171|2010-01-02 10:59:14|Chuck Parkhurst|Re: the term ex-alcoholic|
What portion of the basic text used the term
"ex-alcoholic" and what was it changed to?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See Message 2258 from: Jim Blair
<jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)

1st Edition - changes made in the 11th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P178-L20, Him to HIM.
- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

- - - -

Original Message from Tommy Hickcox in Baton Rouge
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
Subject: Re: More on Huxley etc. -- the term ex-alcoholic

I would note that the First Edition of our
Big Book used the term "ex-alcoholic" six times,
on pp. 28, 30, 271, 272, and 330, and it wasn't
until the 11th Printing in 1947 that it was
changed. I suspect the term was commonly used
then.
| 6192|6155|2010-01-02 11:04:43|Arthur S|Religion and AA|
From Jon Markle and Arthur S.

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>
(arthur.s at live.com)

The Happiest of Holidays to you Jon

I think this could make for a good historical discussion, namely "where does
religion fit in AA and what does AA owe to religion"? The answer will likely
vary substantially based on one's choice of the meaning of "religion" and
"religious" and whether or not it is conditioned on disillusionment (you
seem to perceive religion as a peril).

There is also the matter of today's secularism (where the term "spiritual"
is used as a more palatable substitute for the word "religion"). I'm not
speaking of institutionalized Religion or a specific set of beliefs of a
particular denomination. Etymologically the words "religious" and
"spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the
web and compare the definitions of the two words."

I'll borrow from the internet:

The word "spirit" and "spiritual" generally mean "of the soul" and are
derived from the Latin word "spiritus" (the breath of life). Interestingly
"spirits" also means distilled alcohol. Arguments over which German word to
use to express the equivalent of the word "spiritual" led to the great Big
Book copyright lawsuit of a few years ago.

The term "religion" (a difficult word to define) is defined here as "any
specific system of belief, worship, or conduct that prescribes certain
responses to the existence and character of God." (I don't include atheism
in this - it is a torturous non-sequitur promulgated by legal rather than
religious matters). The term "religious" is defined as "having or showing
belief in, and reverence for, God."

My assertion is that religion (and clergy) were, and remain, a great asset
to AA. No one, except you, is positing this with the absurd notion of
"religious interference in AA" that would "kill us all" and also the notion
of citing history "real or imagined" as being "dangerous." This is a history
special interest group. Don't go off track with hyperbole and editorial.

Bill W's statements to the American Psychiatric Association 105th Annual
Meeting Montreal, Quebec, May 1949 noted that:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma.
The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even
this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in
our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely
report the gradual onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may.
Observers once thought A.A. could appeal only to the religiously
susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American
Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can
become remarkably open minded. Of course we speak little of conversion
nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But
conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic
process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works
with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience.
... We like to think Alcoholics Anonymous a middle ground between medicine
and religion, the missing catalyst of a new synthesis. This to the end that
the millions who still suffer may presently issue from their darkness into
the light of day! ... I am sure that none attending this great Hall of
Medicine will feel it untoward if I leave the last word to our silent
partner, Religion: God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot
change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the
difference."

By the way quite a number of church congregations today have their own
recovery groups that use both the 12 Steps and the tenets of their faith and
are successful. I have a number of friends that attend both. Depending upon
one's outlook and attitude it does not have to be an either/or situation.

I remember when words such a "religion" and "church" were viewed with
respect and not considered anathema - it wasn't that long ago from "the
now".

Bill W asserted that AA's two best friends were religion and medicine.
That's still the world now.

Cheers
Arthur

PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in
church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a
cooperative and helping hand to AA).

- - - -

From: Jon Markle (Raleigh, North Carolina)
<serenitylodge@mac.com> (serenitylodge at mac.com)
Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009

Responding to John Barton: I couldn't agree with
you more, John. Thanks for saying so.

AA is no more a religious program, as such, than it is a medical or
physiological or social program . . . even though large parts of our recovery
suggestions come from those disciplines as well.

It is the synthesis and the symbiotic relationship between all that is man that
seems to be the key to making it work for us alcoholics. The whole person
approach. Leave one part out, or emphasize only one aspect (say "religious" for
example) and the whole thing gets lopsided and is no more powerful -- if even
doable -- than the sum of that one component. And we all know the trouble the
Oxford people had getting us sober, permanently!

John Barton had written:

> <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
>
> The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve contain a
> fair amount of "theological propositions". Both books espouse the
> Christian-Judeo theology of the Bible with the frequent use of such terms as
> "Father, Creator, Maker, Father of Light who presides over us all, "Him",
> "He" etc. There is also significant use of bible quotes throughout both texts
> such as "Thy will be done", "The Father doeth the works", "Faith without works
> is dead" and many more too numerous and hopefully not necessary to quote here.
>
> As Nell Wing said Bill's greatest ability was that of a "synthesizer". Taking
> that which already existed from Medicine and Religion and adapting it to our
> special use.
>
> Whether or not AA is Spiritual, Religious, both, neither and whether of not
our
> twelve steps constitute "dogma" or "doctrine" would seem to be outside issues,
> best left to the experts in the fields of sociology and anthropology.
>
> I would also point out that just because AA says ......"xyz"..... or Bill W.
> said ..."abc".... doesn't necessarily make it so.
>
> God Bless

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)
Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009

It seems to me that the alleged "influence" of religion, especially Western
Christian influence, we read about upon AA is more of re-write of history by
those fanatics that would have it to be so. When in fact, AA was, in my
readings, more inclined to stay away from such dogmatic influences. Since
Christianity is the dominant religion here in the USA, it seeks to take the
credit for AA by coloring anything that has to do with "spirituality", as
"theirs".

A good historian of AA history should be able to realize this misguided, but
increasing attempt to hijack the Fellowship. And that is, I hope, one thing
this list needs to avoid, "religiously".

Thank you Les, and others here, for towing the line between what is speculation
and what is truth.

Jon Markle/MA
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations
Raleigh, NC
9/9/82

- - - -

Original message from: Jon Markle
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
Subject: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect

Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason and
conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between "religion"
and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about such an observation,
having had some passing study of our colorful history (in AA) through this
group.

Historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support just about
any idea. But, that does not make it so.

However, today, it cannot be said that "religion" and "spiritual" are one in
the same. They are most decidedly NOT. And this is the world . . . the NOW .
. . that interests me most. We have resources and understanding today that
the drunks did not have back then. Dare I say, better? "More will be
revealed". Living in the past world will not help us grow. We must learn
from their mistakes. If religion offered us the answer we sought to have the
desire to drink removed, we would not need AA. Fact is, it didn't work.

And there's the crux. No one (I hope) wants religious interference in AA, I
think. That would indeed kill us all, I'm afraid. And attempts to justify
such moves, by citing "history" . . . real and imagined, are very damaging,
I think. And make AA into a thing that becomes both scary and
non-productive. Just like church could not get me sober, neither could an AA
meeting that sounds like church.

Jon Markle
Raleigh
9/9/82
| 6193|6155|2010-01-02 11:07:29|J. Lobdell|Re: Religion and AA|
I'm not sure that the AAHistoryLovers provides the proper platform for an editorial saying "historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support just about any idea" -- followed by comments about the present state of the religious/spiritual dichotomy (or non-dichotomy).

Comments on current affairs in AA aren't really our meat, though an argument -- not simply dismissive comments -- on the possible false uses of history may be.

One question, of course, is what is meant by "religion" or "religious" -- on that depend most of the useful things we could say about the dichotomy -- always provided we have an agreed-upon definition of "spiritual" -- but I'm not clear that we do. My own view fwiw is that by "spiritual" we mean pretty much what was meant by "religious" back in the Washingtonian days, and by "religious" pretty much what they meant by "Gospel" -- so that this isn't a new thing.

As to "justifying" religious interference in AA, I may have missed the reference point -- I have no idea what is being talked about. Of course, the corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of New York and is considered by that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that testimony cannot be compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting (there was a court case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body has certain advantages, I suppose.

I understand that Jon M. (if that is our correspondent's name) wants to keep AA out of "Church" hands, doesn't want organized religion in. Neither do I. If he wants to correspond on the question with me individually, I would more than welcome it: I suspect we agree on quite a lot. But is this the proper venue?

- - - -

This is responding to Jon Markle's message
Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009
| 6194|6155|2010-01-02 11:11:52|jenny andrews|Re: Religion and AA|
"Sensitivity to both the non-religious within the fellowship and the professionally religious outside of it led Alcoholics Anonymous to resist identification as an expression of religion. The plea within was for 'open-mindedness'. It infused AA from Dr Bob Smith's stress on 'tolerance' to the final substantive paragraph of the Big Book's appendix, 'Spiritual Experience': 'We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open-mindednness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable'."

(From chapter eight [The context of the history of religious ideas], Not God: a history of Alcoholics Anonymous; Ernest Kurtz; Hazelden; 1991.)

It is confusing to conflate spirituality with religion; substitute religion for spirituality in the BB appendix quotation to see the difference. Willingness, honesty and open-mindedness are universal values not confined to religion. Semantically spiritual also stands against material; recovery results from a spiritual awakening; it is not a commodity.

(See Kurtz, Twelve Step Programs, in "Spirituality and the Secular Quest" [World Spirituality series]; editor, Peter H. Van Ness; SCM Press; 1996.)
| 6195|6195|2010-01-02 11:35:34|jaynebirch55|What psychological or mental diagnosis?|
Hi there,

Jayne from Barking Big Book study. Hope you
had a fantastic christmas and wishing you the
happiest of new years.

I was wondering if you could help me with any
of the following.

Chapter 5, How it works, "usually men and women
who are constitutionally incapable of being
honest with themselves." Have you any further
information on this, such as was it a particular
mental illness Bill was refering to?

Also in chapter 8, page 114 "Sometimes there
are cases where alcoholism is complicated by
other disorders" and "unless the doctor thinks
his mental condition to abnormal or dangerous."
Do you have any details as to what these might
been or what Bill may have been refering to?

Were they thinking of precise mental conditions,
and were there specific psychological terms
which were used at that time to refer to people
with these problems?

I look forward to your reply

God bless

Jayne x x x x

- - - -

From the moderator:

Or in the case of inability to be honest with
ourselves, was this more of a philosophical
issue? I am thinking of the existentialist
philosophers of that period. Jean-Paul Sartre's
concept of mauvaise foi (literally "bad faith")
meant an attempt to manipulate other people
by a kind of deception and lying to them about
what you really wanted, which ended up with you
simultaneously believing your own lies, while
also, at some other deep level, KNOWING that
you were lying.

So mauvaise foi becomes always, inevitably,
"self-deception" and refusal to be honest with
yourself.

In the attempt to control others, you end up
losing your own freedom. You are torn in two
inside. And you end up plunged into what the
existentialist philosophers called ressentiment.

In Heidegger and Nietzsche, likewise, we have
to lie to ourselves and "live a lie" in one way
or another, in order to maintain our inauthentic
existence, and flee from the power of real life
and freedom, and avoid honestly living life on
life's terms.

There is a deeply existentialist flavor to the
Big Book, probably arising from the Zeitgeist
(the spirit of the times), the deeply shaking
experience of the First World War, and so on.
You can see it affecting the Oxford Group also,
in Philip Leon's The Philosophy of Courage:

http://stepstudy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/philosophyofcourage.pdf

Glenn C.
South Bend, Indiana, US
| 6196|6155|2010-01-02 11:47:12|Tom Hickcox|Religion and AA|
Jon Markle wrote:

>Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason
>and conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between
>"religion" and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about
>such an observation, having had some passing study of our colorful
>history (in AA) through this group.

- - - -

I was looking at a copy of an old pamphlet out of Washington of the
four classes for new alcoholics and this comes Discussion No. 2, The
Spiritual Phase, which includes Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, and is part
of the discussion of Step 3:

"3. RELIGION is a word we do not use in A.A. We refer to a member's
relation to God as the SPIRITUAL. A religion is a FORM of worship,
not worship itself."

This is probably the view in the '40s.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From the moderator: this careful distinction
between religion and spirituality (the same
distinction that is so often made in modern AA)
was being made in AA as least as early as 1944,
as we can tell from the date on Bobbie Burger's
letter below.

This particular pamphlet (which was referred
to as the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide,
the Washington D.C. Pamphlet, or the Detroit
Pamphlet) was reprinted and used by early AA
groups all across the United States, from the
east coast to the west coast, and everywhere
in between.

So is it "orthodox" for AA people to continue
to make the common distinction between religion
and spirituality? If everybody in AA, all over
the country, was doing it back in the 1940's,
then it's certainly an acceptable part of the
AA historical tradition.

Wally P. says that "in the Fall of 1944, a copy of the Washington, DC pamphlet reached Barry C[ollins] -- one of the AA pioneers in Minneapolis. He wrote a letter to the New York headquarters requesting permission to distribute the pamphlet. We talk about 'Conference Approved Literature' today; but this is the way the Fellowship operated back then. This is a letter from Bobbie B[urger], Bill W.'s secretary, printed on 'Alcoholic Foundation' stationary."

November 11, 1944

Dear Barry:

. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out.

Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)
| 6197|6197|2010-01-02 11:56:54|Marlo Daugherty|Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea|
As someone told me on a different subject, "Don't get so hung up in the words that you miss the point of the story." Here's the way I see the "statistics" in the Foreword to the 2nd Edition: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way. . ." OK. That means that if you are an alcoholic (as opposed to something else) and you come to A.A. and really try, you've got a 50-50 chance of never drinking again. Can't argue with that!

evergreen78
| 6198|6187|2010-01-02 11:58:29|jax760|Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea|
My mistake .... the nine is a seven on the
document, the error was mine

Total members who have never taken a drink since joining -- 19
Number who have had only one slip since joining-- 7
Total successful 26
| 6199|6155|2010-01-02 12:10:12|diazeztone|Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family's religious beliefs|
In reading this post and a couple of others
I decided to do some reading tonite on the
Swedenborgian religion and their movment.

Wow, very surprising. I wonder how much Lois
and Bill talked about this. I wonder how many
times they attended Swedenborgian church masses
or meetings.

Was Dr. Bob involved in this in any way?

Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!!

I lookforward to reading this new research also!

LD Pierce
www.aabibligraphy.com
| 6200|6200|2010-01-02 13:10:45|Charlie C|Using WorldCat.org to find books in nearby libraries|
   Hi, I've been a college librarian for many years and would like to respond to Octoberbabye's request for a book on Silkworth. It's nice to own books, but borrowing from libraries can work too, and is a lot cheaper :-)

   If you want to know how available in libraries a book is, after first checking your local library catalog, look at www.worldcat.org. This is the free public version of a massive shared records site for libraries across the country. You can look for a specific book or browse for books on a subject etc.

   Once you find something it will tell you what libraries in your zip code area own it.

As an example here is the link to the record for the book in question: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51063745

   Then you can either borrow the book in person, or, use the universal "inter-library loan" system to request that your local library get the book for you. The record from WorldCat gives you all the info you need to make your request. Depending on your library, there may be a small fee to process the request - usually a dollar or two.

   Something to think about too is that if you live near a university or college library, they often make provision for area residents to use their collections, again usually for an annual fee. The college library I work in charges $25 a year to area residents to be able to borrow our books, not a bad deal really.

   Good luck in all your researches!

Charlie C.IM = route20guy
Go settle down
And quit your triflin' ways
'Cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days  Kitty Wells, Make up Your Mind, 1950
| 6201|6201|2010-01-06 10:59:25|cwojohnwalter|Minority opinion question|
Is there a recorded precedence in which the
minority opinion was heard and then swayed the
majority opinion enough to change or table the
vote?

I realize that this might happen at the individual
group level often but I am looking for some
documentation of it happening at the Regional or
Higher Level.

I am giving a presentation about the minority
opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it
out as much as possible.

Love and Service - John
| 6202|6202|2010-01-06 11:03:28|cwojohnwalter|Is it necessary to ask the floor for any minority opinion?|
After an issue is debated and all sides of
have been heard and after the vote is taken
and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever
is required) than is it necessary to ask the
floor for the minority to state its opinion if
it so wishes?

I understand the importance of an informed group
conscience as well as substantial unanimity.

But again, my question is: Is it necessary to
ask the floor for the minority to re-state its
opinion once the vote has been taken?

Love and Service - John
| 6203|6181|2010-01-06 11:24:14|jenny andrews|Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA|
"By personal religious affiliation, we include
Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and
sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists ... "

(Big Book, Foreword to second edition, 1955)
| 6204|6181|2010-01-06 11:26:06|Aloke Dutt|Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA|
The Ashram Dr. Earle described at the foothill
of Arunachalam is close to Madras(now Chennai)

The famous guru/saint was Raman Maharishi,
more here:

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/

- - - -

Original message 6188 from Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6188

... an excerpt from the author of the
"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the
Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition ....

Dr. Earle: I went back to see Bill and Lois
and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about
eight or nine days back in New York before I
went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and
on the way there he said, "You know, Earle,
I've been sober longer than anyone else in our
organization. After all I was sober six months
when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have
too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down
in the dumps a hell of a lot."

So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much
serenity either." I was sober by this time
maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said,
"Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia,
see if you can investigate firsthand, the
various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism,
Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and
ancestral worship and the whole shebang."

And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he
said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we
can find something in those religions. After
all, we've taken from William James, we've
taken from all the Christian religions. Let's
see what these others have."

... I spent a lot of time in Nepal and in
Indonesia. I spent time in India ....

I tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita,
the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on
the southeast coast of India, run by a very
famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred
and fifty East Indians there. I was the only
Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti
-- that's a white skirt that men wear --
and I wore one like the rest of them did.

Etc., etc.
| 6205|6155|2010-01-06 11:45:08|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Religion and AA|
One of the most important messages in Ernie
Kurtz's great history of AA:

Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
Anonymous, expanded edition (Center City,
Minnesota: Hazelden, 1991; orig. 1979):

Over the period of the writer's research, one
especially serious question was repeatedly asked
by both old-timers interviewed and others with
whom observations were shared. Perhaps this
question was at least partially inspired by
the brazenness of an attempt to write the
"history" of a still vigorously living
phenomenon, but it was nevertheless a serious
question always seriously asked: How long will
Alcoholics Anonymous last? Might it change so
that it will no longer be Alcoholics Anonymous?"

To be able to pretend to be able to answer
directly would be to claim the mantle of prophet
rather than that of historian: but for all those
who so queried, I can now offer explicitly at
least the intuition that their very questions
as well as this research have suggested.

Alcoholics Anonymous shall survive as long
as its message remains that og the not-Godness
of the wholeness of accepted limitation; and
this itself shall endure so long as A.A.
spiritualizers and its liberals -- its "right"
and its "left" -- maintain in mutual respect
the creative tension that arises from their
willingness to participate even with other of
so different assumptions and temperaments in
the shared honesty of mutual vulnerability
openly acknowledged.

Alcoholics Anonymous will live, in other words,
so long as it is "Alcoholics Anonymous":
"an utter simplicity which encases a complete
mystery" that no one claims perfectly to
understand.
| 6206|6155|2010-01-06 11:47:07|grault|Re: Religion and AA -- What is AA's legal status in the US?|
If available, I'd appreciate a cite to the
New York case you referred to. My understanding
was to the contrary: that although AA IS a
"religious organization" (in the view of the
New York court), there is no legal privilege
because there is no communication intended to
be confidential to a minister, rabbi, priest
or the like.

I also understood that because AA is viewed
as "religious," it has been held by a N.Y. court
to be unconstitutional for a judge to "sentence"
someone to go to meeting for a driving-while-
intoxicated offense.

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"J. Lobdell" wrote:

Of course, the corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of New York and is considered by that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that testimony cannot be compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting (there was a court case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body has certain advantages, I suppose.
| 6207|6155|2010-01-06 12:02:45|pvttimt@aol.com|Re: Religion and AA|
From: Tim, Jon Markle, Laurie Andrews, jax760,
and Charlie C.

- - - -

From: Tim ,pvttimt@aol.com> (pvttimt at aol.com)

In an attempt to tease out the nuance between
"religion" and "spirituality" ...

I see spirituality or spiritual experience as
something that I can have as an individual without
regard to anyone else. My inspiration may come
from nature, or any of many different sources.

Religion seems to begin when two or more people
agree on their own personal spiritual experiences,
sufficient that they choose to join together
and espouse that particular perspective. Then
they seek out others of similar experience to
join them in fellowship.

The unique aspect of AA is that we join the
fellowship only to find that it is not only
permissible to embrace our own personal version
of spirituality, but that we are urged to
do so -- not something that the typical religion
offers.

Tim

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)

On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:

> Etymologically the words "religious" and
> "spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the
> web and compare the definitions of the two words."

Here's the problem I think.

TODAY, the two words are not necessarily interchangeable. In fact, in most of
society today, they are not one in the same and have widely different meanings,
attributes and outcomes.

Perhaps the most egregious of societal attributes, "religion" as we know it
today especially, is highly political. Whereas spirituality is not.

And we know from experience that these two philosophies, religion and politics,
have no business in an AA meeting. For the most obvious reason: they are both
anti-recovery, anti "fellowship," by their nature.

Although many "religious" folk will probably tell you they are "spiritual," the
same is not true of "spiritual" folks.

Thus the dilemma. And thus the arguments in AA circles.

I see no particular benefit to religious arguments. Because they are ALL an
individual point of view and nothing more. Nothing can be factually proved.

ALSO:

On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:

> PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in
> church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a
> cooperative and helping hand to AA).

This argument would be a great reason never to have AA in a church. Such
suppositions are why we MUST keep our meetings autonomous and anonymous from the
facilities in which they meet.

Perhaps more than any one thing you have said, this alone is the very proof we
must keep religion out of the Rooms.

It seems so obvious to me now, why we must keep this list clean of religious
superstitious pinning. AA is not nor can it ever become religious or governed
by any religious dogma. If this History list becomes an argument for religious
involvement in AA, then it has failed in its watchword.

I don't care to debate or discuss it. I just want us to realize this forum is
not one which should be used to manipulate historical facts in an attempt to
justify religious teachings or interference with organized religion, especially
those with fundamental, evangelical agendas, in AA.

If anything, a factual study of AA should show the reasons and necessity for the
separation of religion from AA.

I want us to be clear about that.

Jon Markle/MA
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations
Raleigh, NC
9/9/82

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Also ... "As a society we must never become so vain as to suppose that we are
authors and inventors of a new religion. We will humbly reflect that every one
of AA's principles has been borrowed from ancient sources." (AA Comes of Age,
page 231 - quoted in As Bill Sees It, page 223).

- - - -

From: "jax760" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

For an alternative perspective to the "Tablemate" see the Akron Pamphlet
"Spiritual Milestones in AA" c. early 1940s.

"FEW, IF ANY, men or women have completely fulfilled the aims of
Alcoholics Anonymous without at least some grasp of the spiritual, or to use
another term in it's broadest sense, religion. True, there have been some who
have managed to keep sober simply by mechanical action. But a preponderance of
evidence points out that until one has some spiritual conviction, and the more
the better, he takes no joy in his sobriety. Too often we hear an AA remark, "I
think this is a wonderful program, but I can't understand the spiritual angle."
To them the religion otherwise know as Alcoholics Anonymous is something
complex, abstract and awesome. They seem to have the impression that religion,
the spiritual life, is something to be enjoyed only by saints the clergy, and
perhaps an occasional highly privileged layman. They cannot conceive that it can
be for the reformed sinner as well. And yet the truth is, the spiritual AA is
there for all of
us to enjoy.

But, asks the alcoholic, where can I find a simple, step-by-step religious
guide? The Ten Commandments give us a set of Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots;
the Twelve Steps of AA give us a program of dynamic action; but what about a
spiritual guide?

Of course the answer is that by following the Ten Commandments and Twelve Steps
to the letter we automatically lead a spiritual life, whether or not we
recognize it."

This pamphlet is still sold at Akron Intergroup.

Attempts to differentiate (by us laymen i.e. AA members) such complex,
multi-dimensional contructs as spirituality and religion or religiousness are
extremely difficult and any attempt at a single or narrow definition of either,
which historically have been and are still today quite broadly defined in
dictionaries,(and by sociologists, pyschologists and everyone else outside 12
step recovery) reflects a limited perspective or perhaps an agenda (spirituality
is good and religion is bad). The majority of people in the USA do not
differentiate between these two wonderful, dynamic and empowering constructs.
Note 1

"In critically judging of the value of religious phenomena, it is very important
to insist on the distinction between religion as an individual personal
function, and religion as an institutional, corporate, or tribal product."
William James - VRE

James called it "religion as an individual personal function", the Oxford Group
called it "personal religion", we in AA call it "spirituality". In each instance
we are talking about the same thing.........a personal religious experience, or
if you prefer a spiritual experience. As "a way of life" they are indeed one in
the same.

Those interested may wish to read Bill's "Three Talks to The Medical Societies"
(P-6) and see how Bill described the AA program of recovery to educated men of
medicine and science.

Bill used the words spiritual and religious interchangeably in most of his
writings (see p.569 AA) and never once have I read anything from Bill that said
"AA is Spiritual not Religious" (he was way too smart to engage in such
controvery) in fact I have found dozens of citeable instances of Bill describing
"the work" as "religious" as well as dozens of instances of him describing the
program or its actions as "spiritual." It should be no surprise to anyone that
drunks have always had trouble with anything "religious" including the word or
idea. Thus AA adpated the word and idea "spiritual" and
"spirituality" to suit the needs of the society.

"The basic principles of A.A., as they are known today, were borrowed mainly
from the fields of religion and medicine, though some ideas upon which success
finally depended were the result of noting the behaviors and needs of the
Fellowship itself." � p. 16 12&12

Whether or not AA is spiritual, religious, both or neither is best left to the
outside experts. Just because AA or its members, some or all, majority or
minority, say ...xyz.... doesn't make it so.

Has anyone seen or would like to comment on the many (I believe eight) major
legal cases involving the establishment clause that have been tried in the last
twenty five years in either state supreme or federal circuit appeals courts? How
does the legal system in the USA define AA?

IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v.
THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE
NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL
SERVICES, ET AL. RESPONDENTS. 1996 N.Y. Int. 137.
June 11, 1996. No. 73 [1996 NY Int. 137].
Decided June 11, 1996

"On this appeal we hold that, under the Establishment Clause of the United
States Constitution's First Amendment, an atheist or agnostic inmate may not be
deprived of eligibility for expanded family visitation privileges for refusing
to participate in the sole alcohol and drug addiction program at his State
correctional facility when the program necessarily entails mandatory attendance
at and participation in a curriculum which adopts in major part the
religious-oriented practices and precepts of Alcoholics Anonymous (hereinafter
A.A.).

In December of 1996, the U. S. Supreme Court turned down, without comment, New
York's appeal to have the Griffin v Coughlin ruling overturned.

In several of these landmark cases attempts to differentiate
"spiritual" from "religious" were rejected by the courts.

With that I have ceased fighting anyone or anything and have resigned from the
debating society.

BTW, for the record, I have no problem with either religion or spirituality.
Identify and don't compare?

God Bless

Note 1
Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of
Departure Peter C. Hill, Kenneth I. Pargament, Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Michael E.
McCullough, James P. Swyers, David B. Larson & Brian J. Zinnbauer
Journal for the Theory of Social Behavior 30:1 0021-8308

- - - -

From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>
(route20guy at yahoo.com)

I think it would be quite interesting to pursue this discussion in terms of
what spiritual and religious notions were in the the 1930s, and what they are
today. My impression from their biographies is that while both Dr. Bob and Bill
were rather eclectic browsers in spiritual matters, e.g. their interest in Ouija
boards, they were both also both respectful of and knowledgeable about the
primary organized religion of their day, Christianity..

Things are different today of course, there are many spiritual and religious
"options" as it were that were not so present in the 1930s. I would like to see
more of that same respect, and lack of prejudice (see p49 in the Big Book for
example) in AA today that Bill and Bob had. In my 21 years of sobriety I have
heard an unpleasant amount of careless, ignorant and disrespectful talk against
"organized religion."

If nothing else it's unseemly considering that the vast majority of our
meetings take place in buildings that we have free access to for extraordinarily
nominal "rents," all due to the charitable spiritual impulse of those religious
people that many in AA seem to feel so superior towards.

Glib talk of being "spiritual" not "religious" is easy to indulge in, but I
haven't noticed it translating into buildings being constructed and maintained
so that the spiritual impulse can be housed, and groups of drunks can have a
room to meet in.
| 6208|6208|2010-01-06 12:18:10|longjohnunderwear|Sobriety Under the Sun|
Sobriety Under the Sun is an English-speaking
AA convention held each winter in Puerto Vallarta
in Mexico .. coming up at the end of January.

For more info see:

http://www.aapvconvention.com/

http://www.rexark.com/collections/sobriety-under-the-sun
| 6209|6209|2010-01-06 12:26:37|Geoff|Information on Jack Alexander's life|
Apologies if this has been covered, but I can't
find it anywhere.

Do we know anything about the life of Jack
Alexander before his involvement with AA?

Does anyone have any resources or anything that
might help me find some background information
on his bio etc?

many thanks
Geoff
| 6210|6210|2010-01-06 12:27:44|diazeztone|List of all Hazelden books on alcoholism|
Hazelden books on alcoholism:

Has anyone ever published, studied, talked about,
or written about every book Hazelden has ever
published (including those out of print)?

I.e., a complete bibliography of Hazelden books
on alcoholism and recovery.

LD Pierce 06 15 1995

Hope all had merry christmas and happy new year!
Another Sober one for me!!
www.aabibliography.com

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

Or perhaps the more modest project of assembling
a complete list of all the books which Hazelden
published on the history of A.A., back when they
were still publishing books on A.A. history.
| 6211|6211|2010-01-07 09:52:40|Charlie C|life of jack alexander|
Re Jack Alexander, I see his obit in the NY Times for 9/20/75. It is a brief piece, mentioning that he was from St. Louis, had worked for the St. Louis Star and Post-Dispatch before joining the Daily News in NYC in 1930. He then moved to the New Yorker, and then the Saturday Evening Post, from which he retired as a senior editor in 1964. He died 9/19/75 in St. Louis, and was survived by his widow.

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy
| 6212|6209|2010-01-07 09:58:18|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Information on Jack Alexander's life|
Jack Alexander retired to Florida and died there.
There are two different dates given for his death
date: September 19 1975 and September 17 1975.

Someone who knows how to use the obits may be
able to find more from his obit.
| 6213|6211|2010-01-11 13:45:01|Ernest Kurtz|Re: life of Jack Alexander|
According to one common story, Alexander had
just finished a piece "exposing" the mob -- in
Philadelphia? Anyway, according to this story,
when he first heard of AA he thought that it,
too, had to be some kind of "racket," so he set
out to expose it.

I'll appreciate verification of this story if
anyone can come up with it, or its disproof.

ernie kurtz
| 6214|6214|2010-01-11 15:26:21|schaberg43|Requirement for time sober for people running meetings?|
In our area, there is a "rule" that you must
have at least ninety days (or even six months)
of sobriety before you can "run" a meeting.
In addition, several Step groups require a
year (or even two) before someone is given
"the chair."

I have been asked if there is any foundation
for this "rule" in AA's early history.

I don't know of any concrete basis for this
in the 1930s, but perhaps someone on this list
would have some knowledge of such an early
'tradition' or rule.

I also suspect that such a 'rule' might well
have been propagated in the 'AA Guideline'
binders (or whatever they were called) that
I know were sent out by GSO during the 1940s.

Can anyone help me with some more detailed
background for this "rule"?

Best,

Old Bill
| 6215|6215|2010-01-11 15:57:34|Stockholm Fellowship|Re: minority opinion question|
From Jay G. in Stockholm, Bob McK., and
Dave "inkman83"

- - - -

From: Jay G. (Stockholm)
<stockholmfellowship@gmail.com>
(stockholmfellowship at gmail.com)

In regard to the Minority opinion question, yes there are times where the majority is swayed by a minority opinion.

I remember one time at the District level in Los Angeles there was an idea I had for a PI event. Initially everyone really liked the idea and the first vote was nearly unanimous in favor. During the minority opinion a concern was raised about cost and some who voted for the idea indicated they wanted to re-vote. In the re-vote the idea failed overwhelmingly, with encouragement to come back with more details about the cost at a future meeting.

And at the Regional level in Europe there have been times when the 2/3's threshold for passing something was met, but after the minority opinion a re-vote was requested and the motion fell just a few votes under the threshold.

So sometimes the minority opinion brings up something that causes a lot of people to rethink their vote, other times just a few people. But it does sway. In fact, in my experience, I have only seen the minority opinion to have much of an effect at the District, Region or Area levels. In my experience, in the group's conscience at the homegroup level, there tends to be such a uniformity that the minority opinion rarely causes a budge.

Regarding is you must always ask for the minority opinion, that varies. Some do it every time, some don't if the motion didn't pass in the first place.

In fellowship,
Jay G.
Stockholm, Sweden

- - - -

From: "Bob McK." <bobnotgod2@att.net>
(bobnotgod2 at att.net)

The Conference Archives Committee, a secondary committee, came into being in
1998 through just such a process. It was just shy of the required 2/3 vote
for approval. Impassioned pleas by the non-prevailing side led to a
reconsideration. Most notable in the restored debate was the statement by
David E. from Hawaii who said, "I've been swaying back and forth like a palm
tree on this issue, but I think we ought to give it a chance." The vote was
indeed swayed to over a 2/3 majority and the committee was born.

When chairing any AA or AA-related debate I have always asked for minority
opinion. If nothing else, it offers the losing side an opportunity to vent
their "sour grapes." At one time in the 1998 (or possible '97) Conference
the chair allowed minority opinion after an already-reconsidered vote,
knowing full well that a second motion to reconsider is not allowed.

Furthermore full debate on the original motion may not have occurred because
of a motion calling the question or because some did not express important
issues feeling that their side was certain to prevail without their help.

- - - -

From: "inkman83" <tumbles83@msn.com> (tumbles83 at msn.com)

I was active in The North Florida Area from approximately 1994-2006 and at least
three separate times the minority opinion swayed the majority and the vote was
overturned. After minority opinion is heard the Chair (I believe) asked if
there is someone who voted in the majority who would like to ask for a re-vote,
if that motion is seconded then a vote is taken to determiine if a re-vote will
take place, if that passes then the secretary re-reads the motion and a new vote
is taken (if I recall correctly there is no discussion on a re-vote). I believe
this information can be found by e-mailing the Secretary or the Archivist from
aanorthflorida.org

Hope this helps

Dave

- - - -

The two original messages were from:
"cwojohnwalter" <cwojohnwalter@yahoo.com>
(cwojohnwalter at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010

Is there a recorded precedence in which the
minority opinion was heard and then swayed the
majority opinion enough to change or table the
vote?

I realize that this might happen at the individual
group level often but I am looking for some
documentation of it happening at the Regional or
Higher Level.

I am giving a presentation about the minority
opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it
out as much as possible.

Love and Service - John

And "Is it necessary to ask the floor for
any minority opinion?"

After an issue is debated and all sides of
have been heard and after the vote is taken
and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever
is required) than is it necessary to ask the
floor for the minority to state its opinion if
it so wishes?

Love and Service - John
| 6216|6211|2010-01-11 16:22:29|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: life of Jack Alexander|
Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey
By Jack Alexander
Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post
on October 26, 1940
Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002

http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml

The Honorable Frank Hague, the perpetual mayor of Jersey City, is perhaps
the most eminent mugg in the United States. Hague was a mugg when he was
expelled from the sixth grade at thirteen as a truant and dullard, and be was
a mugg when he started learning politics the bare-knuckles way in the tough
Horseshoe district of Jersey City in the 1890's. He was still a mugg when
he was elected mayor of that dreary human hive in 1917, in which capacity
he has held the center of the stage ever since with the grim determination
of a bad violinist. Hague will probably he known to history as a strong
character who, despite all temptations to belong to other classifications,
loyally remained a mugg to the end. This is a remarkable achievement when you
analyze it, for Hanky-Panky, as his admirers sometimes call him, has walked
with the great and good, and their only noticeable effect on him has been
to give him a taste for expensive haberdashery. At heart and in practice, he
is a strong-arm man today, tricked out by a clever tailor to look like a
statesman.
As a wood carver fashions puppets, Hague has created governors, United
States senators, and judges of high and low degree. He has been backslapped
cordially by the President and by men who wanted to be President. He has
bossed the state of New Jersey almost as long as he has ruled Jersey City. He
has mingled intimately with leaders of medicine and the clergy and, in a
famous civil-liberties case, was firmly kneaded and processed by the august
Supreme Court of the United States. He is listed in Who's Who in America and,
as vice-chairman of the Democratic National Committee, he is a leader in
the Party of Humanity.
From time to time, in his twenty-three years as mayor, he has enjoyed the
investigative attentions of committees sent by the United States Senate and
the New Jersey legislature and of agents of the Justice and Treasury
departments. He has been a frequent guest at the baronial Duke Farms in
Somerville, New Jersey, and he has dandled a teacup in the parlor of Mrs E. T.
Stotesbury, the widow of a famous Morgan partner. Yet, in spite of all these
softening influences, he persists in saying, "I have went," and in using
singular subjects with plural verbs, and vice versa. In conversation he bellows
oracularly and jabs a long finger into his listener's clavicle to
emphasize his points, most of which boil down to his favorite argumentative
phrase,
"You know I'm right about that!" His language, when he is aroused, is
that of the gin mill. He rules his city by the nightstick and the state by
crass political barter. He is loud and vulgar and given to public displays of
phony piety during which his enemies are dismissed as "Red," or worse.
At sixty-four, he is still erect and muscular, and he is not above
physically assaulting a quailing civil employee whom he has called on the
carpet.
None dares to hit back, for fear of being harassed by Hague's police or
being held up to public disgrace in some devious way.
A legislative committee once determined that during a seven-year period
when Hague's salary, admittedly his only source of income, totaled $56,000,
he
purchased real estate and other property for a total outlay of nearly
$400,000. This was done through dummies, and payment was made in cash. Hague
has always shied from bank accounts. Although his salary as mayor is only
$8000, has never exceeded $8500 and has been as low as $6520, Hague lives like
a millionaire. He keeps a fourteen-room duplex apartment in Jersey City
and a suite in a plushy Manhattan hotel. He owns a palatial summer home in
Deal, New Jersey, for which he paid $125,120 - in cash - and he gambles
regularly on the horse races. Before the present war began he went to Europe
every year, traveling in the royal suites of the best liners. Now he spends
more time in Florida and at Saratoga Springs, where he flashes a bank roll,
held together by a wide rubber hand, which always contains a few $1000
notes, a denomination of which Hague is childishly fond. Hague's public
squanderings have brought Jersey City's municipal finances to a dangerous
pass.
Wholly dominated by Hague, Jersey City is the worst mess of unpunished civic
corruption in the forty-eight states.

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator: here is a chronological
list of Jack Alexander's articles from

http://www.philsp.com/homeville/FMI/d19.htm#A956

ALEXANDER, JACK (stories)
The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3 1938
Missouri Dark Mule (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8 1938; (about Sen. Bennett Clark).
The Last Shall Be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939; (about Joseph Pulitzer).
He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11, Mar 18 1939; (about William Bullitt).
Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939; (about Harold Ickes).
Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939; (about Enoch Johnson).
All Father�s Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18 1939; (about Father Divine).
Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
Golden Boy; The Story of Jimmy Cromwell (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 23 1940
King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
�Just Call Mr. C.R.� (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
The Duke of Chicago (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 19 1941
The World�s Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26 1941
Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
Everybody�s Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great library can house romance as well as books.
Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943
The Next Offensive in Lisbon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 6 1943
Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 16 1944
Mugwump Senator (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 2 1946
Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 12 1947
The Senate�s Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1947
The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948; about Chic Young.
What Does Walter Reuther Want? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 21 1948
Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30 1949
The Drunkard�s Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950; Alcoholics Anonymous.
The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951
They �Doctor� One Another (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 6 1952
The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31, Nov 7 1953
The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 11, Dec 18 1954
Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 2 1957
The Bank That Has No Secrets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 30 1957
Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1958
The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7 1959
What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10 1960
Dreamers on the Payroll (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 19 1960
Sunny But Somber Island (Corsica) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 28 1962

- - - -

Message #6213 from Ernest Kurtz
<kurtzern@umich.edu>
(kurtzern at umich.edu)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6213

According to one common story, Alexander had
just finished a piece "exposing" the mob -- in
Philadelphia? Anyway, according to this story,
when he first heard of AA he thought that it,
too, had to be some kind of "racket," so he set
out to expose it.

I'll appreciate verification of this story if
anyone can come up with it, or its disproof.

ernie kurtz
| 6217|6211|2010-01-11 20:35:37|Ernest Kurtz|Re: life of Jack Alexander|
Bailey, Glenn -- you guys are really marvelous. Thank you very much.
Now I wonder whether the whole story of AA and Jack Alexander has been
collected and published anywhere? I recall some Akron mentions of
Alexander in the early correspondence. Take it away, you young sprites!

Thanks again.

ernie kurtz


On Jan 11, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:

> Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey
> By Jack Alexander
> Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post
> on October 26, 1940
> Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002
>
> http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6218|6211|2010-01-13 13:44:21|Charles Knapp|Re: life of Jack Alexander|
From brucec55 and Charles Knapp

- - - -

From: Bruce <brucec55@sbcglobal.net> (
brucec55 at sbcglobal.net)

The Feb./March 2008 issue of Box 459 has a two
page article on A.A. and Jack Alexander. I do
not know who wrote it but the staff at GSO may
know.

Bruce



COPY OF THE ARTICLE ON JACK ALEXANDER:

"Jack Alexander Gave A.A. Its First Big Boost"
Box 4-5-9, February/March 2008

As the 1941 year began, Alcoholics Anonymous had about
2,000 members, many in large cities but also some in
small towns and other isolated places. A 1939 national
magazine article had attracted several hundred new
members, and newspaper articles in Cleveland and a few
other places had brought positive results. But for most of
North America, A.A. was still unknown and alcoholics
were dying without knowing that a new way of recovery
had been discovered and was working.

All of that, however, was about to change dramatically.
In less than a year, A.A. would suddenly triple its membership
and be well on the way to becoming a national
institution.

The man who played a key role in this lightning change
was Jack Alexander, a 38-year-old writer for The Saturday
Evening Post, which, with more than 3 million
circulation, was the leading family magazine in the
United States. The article he wrote about A.A. for the March 1,
1941 edition of the magazine -- simply titled "Alcoholics
Anonymous " -- brought in 7,000 inquiries and became
the high point of his illustrious career. The article apparently led
other publications to offer similar reports of the
Fellowship's work, launching A.A. on a publicity roll that
lasted for years.

Alexander's article is still circulating today as a pamphlet
issued by A.A. World Services, with the title "The Jack
Alexander Article about A.A." Though it focuses on the
A.A. of 1941, it still provides important information about
alcoholism, how the Fellowship started, and what was
working so well for those whom we would now call A.A.
pioneers. The article has also been praised as an excellent
example of good organization and writing that could be a
model for journalism students. (The late Maurice Z., an
A.A. member and also a highly successful magazine writer
and biographer, told an A.A. session at the 1985
International Convention in Montreal that he had been
impressed by the article back in 1941, long before he felt
his own need to embrace the program it described!)

How did this fortunate publicity come about? What
inspired it and who was responsible for bringing the idea
to the attention of the Post's editors and nursing the story
through to acceptance and completion?

The account of A.A.'s famous appearance in The
Saturday Evening Post is the kind of story that gives some
A.A. members goose bumps, because they see it as the
sure work of Higher Power. Others would just call it a
chain of coincidences that worked out favorably for the
Fellowship. Whatever the case, its publication in 1941 was
a bombshell breakthrough for A.A. at a critical time.

The process actually started in February 1940, when
Jim B., one of the A.A. pioneers in New York City, moved
to Philadelphia, the headquarters city of The Saturday
Evening Post. Jim started an A.A. group in the city and,
through a chance meeting at a bookstore, attracted the
interest of Dr. A. Wiese Hammer, who with colleague Dr.
C. Dudley Saul, became an enthusiastic A.A. advocate. Dr.
Hammer just happened to be a close friend of Curtis Bok,
owner of The Saturday Evening Post. After hearing Dr.
Hammer's strong endorsement of A.A., Bok passed along
to his editors a suggestion that they consider an article
about the Fellowship. The suggestion landed on the desk
of Jack Alexander, one of the Post's star reporters.

Alexander was a seasoned writer who (according to
Bill W.) had just covered some rackets in New Jersey. (This
gave rise to an untrue belief that he thought A.A. might
also be a racket.) Born in St. Louis, he had worked for
newspapers and The New Yorker before joining the Post.
Alexander deserves much credit for probing deeply into a
struggling society that scarcely impressed him as he started
his research. Though assigned to do the story by his
superiors, he could have made a superficial review of A.A.
activity in New York City and then abandoned the project
as "not having much merit." Indeed, he would write four
years later that he was highly skeptical following his first
contact with four members of A.A. who called at his
apartment one afternoon. "They spun yarns about their
horrendous drinking misadventures," he wrote. "Their
stories sounded spurious, and after the visitors had left, I
had a strong suspicion that my leg was being pulled. They
had behaved like a bunch of actors sent out by some
Broadway casting agency."

But Alexander was too much the professional to give
up based on one unsatisfactory interview session. The
next morning, he met Bill W. at A.A.'s tiny Vesey Street
general service offices in downtown Manhattan. They hit
it off immediately. Alexander described Bill as "a very disarming
guy and an expert at indoctrinating the stranger
into the psychology, psychiatry, physiology, pharmacology
and folklore of alcoholism. He spent the good part of a
couple of days telling me what it was all about. It was an
interesting experience, but at the end of it my fingers
were still crossed. I knew I had the makings of a readable
report but, unfortunately, I didn't quite believe in it and
told Bill so."

At this point, Alexander could have shelved the assign-
ment for later consideration or dropped it altogether. But Bill
W. was determined not to let that happen. He dropped
everything and persuaded Alexander to investigate A.A.
in other cities, especially Akron and Cleveland. As Bill recalled
later, "Working early and late, [Jack] spent a whole month
with us. Dr. Bob and I and the elders of the early groups at
Akron, New York, Cleveland, Philadelphia, and Chicago
spent uncounted hours with him. When he could feel A.A.
in the very marrow of his bones, he proceeded to write
the piece that rocked drunks and their families all over the
nation."

Alexander recalled that A.A. in those cities had impressed him
mightily. "The real clincher came, though, in St. Louis, which
is my home town," he remembered. "Here I met a number of my
own friends who were A.A.s, and the last remnants of skepticism
vanished. Once rollicking rumpots, they were now
sober. It didn't seem possible, but there it was."

Now a firm believer in A.A., Alexander finished the
article and sent it to Bill and Dr. Bob for review. They
suggested only minor changes, though the correspondence
between Bill and Jack reveals that Bill wanted no mention
of the Oxford Group, a fellowship which had given A.A. its
fundamental principles but after 1936 had begun falling
fast in the public favor. Alexander said his editors felt the
story required some mention of the Oxford Group, but he
minimized it.

Then the Post made a request that could have sunk the
project. The editors wanted photos to illustrate the article
and this, Bill thought, would violate the Society's anonymity.
But when the editors said the article wouldn't be published
without photos, Bill agonized for a moment and
then quickly decided the opportunity was too important to
pass up. Thus one photo in Alexander's article showed Bill
and seven others grouped in the old 24th Street Clubhouse
in Manhattan, though the cutline carries no names. The
lead photo, also unidentified, depicted a drunk using a
towel to study his hand while taking a drink, and a second
photo showed a man on a hospital bed being visited by
three A.A. members. Another photo showed a person
being carried into the hospital on a stretcher.

Published on March 1, 1941, the Alexander piece
brought a response that almost overwhelmed the
resources at the small Vesey Street office. The Post
forwarded to A.A. thousands of letters pouring in from
across North America. Volunteers had to be called
in to answer the letters, while some were sent to A.A.
members and groups in their places of origin. And since
A.A. still had very little literature of its own, the article
served as an information piece for prospective A.A.
members. In Toledo, Ohio, for example, the members
gave a newcomer named Garth M. several dollars and
sent him out to buy up copies around the city (the
price was then five cents per copy). These then became
part of the group's literature for other newcomers.

Nine years later Alexander penned another Post article
about A.A. titled "The Drunkard's Best Friend."
Though lacking the dramatic impact of the earlier story, it
effectively detailed what A.A. had become and promised
for the future -- a promise that has been fulfilled many
times over. By this time, A.A. had 96,000 members and
was rapidly spreading to countries around the world.

Jack Alexander remained a friend of A.A. throughout
his life, and even served as a nonalcoholic (Class A) trustee
on the A.A. General Service Board from 1951 until 1956. He
was also said to have added "the final editorial touch" to
Bill's manuscript for Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,
first published in 1952. Alexander became a senior editor
at the Post, and in a special tribute to him at his retirement
in 1961, the Post cited the 1941 Alcoholics Anonymous
piece as his most famous article for the magazine.

In failing health, Jack Alexander and his wife Anita
retired to Florida, where he died on September 17, 1975.
Bill W. had passed away almost five years earlier, so
there was no special tribute for Jack of the kind Bill had
written for other early friends of A.A. But from the Big
Meeting in the Sky, Bill might have praised Jack as a man
who gave us a "ten strike" and with his words virtually
saved the lives of thousands. Even without Jack's wonderful
article, A.A. would have survived and achieved further
growth. But Jack was there at the right time with the right
message for his times. Without Jack's persistence and
strong belief in A.A., many could have gone to their graves
without knowing that a new way of recovery had been discovered
and was working. Bill W. and the other A.A. pioneers
knew that, and they never lost their gratitude for the
star reporter who at first thought his leg was being pulled.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
(cpknapp at yahoo.com)

In the Feb/Mar 2008 Box 459 is an article
about Jack Alexander and it touches on this
story about the Jersey rackets.

Hope this helps
Charles

- - - -

Original message #6216 from <Baileygc23@aol.com>
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey
By Jack Alexander

Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post
on October 26, 1940
Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002

http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml

The Honorable Frank Hague, the perpetual mayor of Jersey City, is perhaps
the most eminent mugg in the United States. Hague was a mugg when he was
expelled from the sixth grade at thirteen as a truant and dullard, and be was
a mugg when he started learning politics the bare-knuckles way in the tough
Horseshoe district of Jersey City in the 1890's. He was still a mugg when
he was elected mayor of that dreary human hive in 1917, in which capacity
he has held the center of the stage ever since with the grim determination
of a bad violinist. Hague will probably he known to history as a strong
character who, despite all temptations to belong to other classifications,
loyally remained a mugg to the end. This is a remarkable achievement when you
analyze it, for Hanky-Panky, as his admirers sometimes call him, has walked
with the great and good, and their only noticeable effect on him has been
to give him a taste for expensive haberdashery. At heart and in practice, he
is a strong-arm man today, tricked out by a clever tailor to look like a
statesman.

As a wood carver fashions puppets, Hague has created governors, United
States senators, and judges of high and low degree. He has been backslapped
cordially by the President and by men who wanted to be President. He has
bossed the state of New Jersey almost as long as he has ruled Jersey City. He
has mingled intimately with leaders of medicine and the clergy and, in a
famous civil-liberties case, was firmly kneaded and processed by the august
Supreme Court of the United States. He is listed in Who's Who in America and,
as vice-chairman of the Democratic National Committee, he is a leader in
the Party of Humanity.

From time to time, in his twenty-three years as mayor, he has enjoyed the
investigative attentions of committees sent by the United States Senate and
the New Jersey legislature and of agents of the Justice and Treasury
departments. He has been a frequent guest at the baronial Duke Farms in
Somerville, New Jersey, and he has dandled a teacup in the parlor of Mrs E. T.
Stotesbury, the widow of a famous Morgan partner. Yet, in spite of all these
softening influences, he persists in saying, "I have went," and in using
singular subjects with plural verbs, and vice versa. In conversation he bellows
oracularly and jabs a long finger into his listener's clavicle to emphasize his
points, most of which boil down to his favorite argumentative phrase,
"You know I'm right about that!" His language, when he is aroused, is
that of the gin mill. He rules his city by the nightstick and the state by
crass political barter. He is loud and vulgar and given to public displays of
phony piety during which his enemies are dismissed as "Red," or worse.

At sixty-four, he is still erect and muscular, and he is not above
physically assaulting a quailing civil employee whom he has called on the
carpet.
None dares to hit back, for fear of being harassed by Hague's police or
being held up to public disgrace in some devious way.

A legislative committee once determined that during a seven-year period
when Hague's salary, admittedly his only source of income, totaled $56,000,
he purchased real estate and other property for a total outlay of nearly
$400,000. This was done through dummies, and payment was made in cash. Hague
has always shied from bank accounts. Although his salary as mayor is only
$8000, has never exceeded $8500 and has been as low as $6520, Hague lives like
a millionaire. He keeps a fourteen-room duplex apartment in Jersey City
and a suite in a plushy Manhattan hotel. He owns a palatial summer home in
Deal, New Jersey, for which he paid $125,120 - in cash - and he gambles
regularly on the horse races. Before the present war began he went to Europe
every year, traveling in the royal suites of the best liners. Now he spends
more time in Florida and at Saratoga Springs, where he flashes a bank roll,
held together by a wide rubber hand, which always contains a few $1000
notes, a denomination of which Hague is childishly fond. Hague's public
squanderings have brought Jersey City's municipal finances to a dangerous
pass.

Wholly dominated by Hague, Jersey City is the worst mess of unpunished civic
corruption in the forty-eight states.
| 6219|6219|2010-01-13 13:50:12|Stockholm Fellowship|EURYPAA 2010 seeks speaker and participants|
The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A.
Convention will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden,
July 23-25, 2010.

More information at http://www.EURYPAA.org/2010

Spread the word, WE NEED ONE MORE SPEAKER,
AND SOME PANELISTS.

- - - -

The All-Europe Young People in AA Conference Committee is looking for a main speaker for Saturday night - someone with an obvious connection to Europe, came to AA age 30 or younger and now has 10+ years continuous sobriety, and a woman is preferred for diversity (Friday night�s main speaker, Craig F., is male). Anyone interested, or with a referral, please send an mp3 recording or online link to info@eurypaa.org

Panel speakers on a variety of topics will also be needed during the conference. AAs from all over the world, and all lengths of sobriety, if you are interested, email info@eurypaa.org and tell us a bit about yourself.

EURYPAA does not pay for any speaker travel or accommodations in order to keep conference costs low. We ask everyone to think of it as an international 12-step call on Young People in AA.

The EURYPAA meetings will be recorded. The recordings are for our EURYPAA archives and people would be able to listen to them online for free; we are not going into the business of selling speaker tapes. It is our hope that young people throughout Europe will be able to hear the experience, strength and hope of the EURYPAA speakers and seek out AA in their area, or contact us via our website to be connected to AA near them.

Hope to see you at EURYPAA 2010!

http://www.EURYPAA.org/2010
| 6220|6211|2010-01-15 21:42:03|tomper87|Re: life of Jack Alexander|
Excerpts from article by Jack Alexander in the
May 1945 Grapevine:

The History of How The Article Came To Be

Jack Alexander of SatEvePost Fame Thought A.A.s Were Pulling His Leg
AA Grapevine, May, 1945
by Jack Alexander
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

"It began when the Post asked me to look into A.A. as a possible article
subject. All I knew of alcoholism at the time was that, like most other
non-alcoholics, I had had my hand bitten (and my nose punched) on
numerous occasions by alcoholic pals to whom I had extended a
hand--unwisely, it always seemed afterward. Anyway, I had an
understandable skepticism about the whole business."

"My first contact with actual A.A.s came when a group of four of them
called at my apartment one afternoon. This session was pleasant, but it
didn't help my skepticism any. Each one introduced himself as an
alcoholic who had gone "dry," as the official expression has it. They
were good-looking and well-dressed and, as we sat around drinking
Coca-Cola (which was all they would take), they spun yarns about their
horrendous drinking misadventures. The stories sounded spurious, and
after the visitors had left, I had a strong suspicion that my leg was
being pulled. They had behaved like a bunch of actors sent out by some
Broadway casting agency."
| 6221|6221|2010-01-16 14:28:28|jenny andrews|Re: Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA|
"In one of these (eastern cities) there is
a well-known hospital for the treatment of
alcoholic and drug addiction. ... We are
greatly indebted to the doctor in attendance
there (presumably Towns hospital and Dr.
Silkworth) ... Every few days this doctor
suggests our (AA) approach to one of his
patients.

Understanding our work, he can do this with
an eye to selecting those who are willing and
able to recover on a spiritual basis."

And, by definition, rejecting other patients
whom he believed would not so benefit.

So, as at Akron with Dr Bob's and Sr Ignatia's
screening of patients, success rates were
distorted by already discounting those they
rejected -- even though these other candidates
might have had a desire to stop drinking.

Laurie A.
| 6222|6155|2010-01-16 16:19:39|bbthumpthump|New England Transcendentalism|
Immanuel Kant and the Eighteenth Century
Enlightenment formed the basis for the
nineteenth-century intellectual movement which
we call New England Transcendentalism: Ralph
Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), Henry David Thoreau
(1817-1862), etc.

William James (1842-1910), although not
considered a Transcendentalist, was nevertheless
part of that same New England intellectual
world. He was a student at Harvard University
in Cambridge, Massachusetts, from 1861-1869,
and taught there from 1873-1907. Ralph Waldo
Emerson was his godfather.

Bill Wilson was born and raised in New England;
he read and was influenced by William James. I
can't help but speculate that he was also
influenced by Emerson, Thoreau and other
Transcendentalists in and around New England.
| 6223|6155|2010-01-16 16:42:11|Glenn Chesnut|Re: New England Transcendentalism|
The Transcendentalists were in part rebels
against the doctrines of the Unitarian Church
which dominated Harvard Divinity School at that
time.

Richmond Walker, the second most-published AA
author ("Twenty-Four Hours a Day") was also
brought up within that same New England world.
Students began reading Transcendentalist-
influenced poetry and so on as early as high
school.

Rich did his college degree at Williams College
in Williamstown, Massachusetts, one of the more
distinguished New England universities, where
the faculty were strongly influenced by
Transcendentalist ideas, and by the kind of
nineteenth-century German idealist philosophy
that was produced under the influence of Immanuel
Kant. The students at Williams College were
strongly encouraged to learn German, and many
of the faculty there had studied at German
universities.

http://hindsfoot.org/rwfla1.html

Rich's father was one of the leaders within the
extreme atheistic wing of the Unitarian Church,
wrote a book defending secular humanism, and
was one of the signatories of the original
Humanist Manifesto.

See Message 4715, "New Information on Richmond Walker"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4715

It is probably not unfair to see Twenty-Four
Hours a Day as Rich's rebellion against his
father, a rejection of his father's atheism
in which Rich turned to a kind of belief in
God that was much more like Ralph Waldo Emerson's
Over-Soul:

Emerson referred to his Higher Power as "that
great nature in which we rest, as the earth
lies in the soft arms of the atmosphere; that
Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's
particular being is contained and made one with
all other; that common heart" which is the
shared feeling of the entire universe.

Emerson was much influenced by Hinduism and the
thought of India (as were many other members of
the Transcendentalist movement -- they seem to
have known much less about Buddhism).

Emerson's concept of the Over-Soul is very
similar to the Hindu teaching of Advaita Vedanta.
The Sanskrit term Param-atman or "Supreme Soul"
-- which seems to be very closely similar to
Emerson's Over-Soul -- also appears in Hindu
literature in the study of the Vedas. My spirit
is a spark of the divine, and is one with all
other human spirits, and one with the Spirit
of the Universe.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-soul

The God whom Bill Wilson rediscovered at Ebby's
prompting in the story he relates in the Big
Book was Emerson's Over-Soul -- our intuitive
awareness of the divine and infinite while
gazing at the beauties and marvels of nature
-- NOT the Jesus of the frontier revivalists
or the new Bible-thumping Protestant Fundamentalist
movement which had arisen at the beginning of
the twentieth century.

(The Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 was one of the
first attempts by the new Fundamentalist movement
to flex its muscles and try to drive all other
forms of Protestantism out of existence. The
Fundamentalists mounted unrelenting attacks
against both the New England Transcendentalists
and the New England Unitarians, against the
Southern Methodist liberal Christians who
published the Upper Room, against liberal
Presbyterians and American Baptists like Harry
Emerson Fosdick (one of AA's early praisers
and defenders), against New Thought preachers
like Emmet Fox, against existentialist and
neo-orthodox theologians like Reinhold Niebuhr,
etc.)

See the opening pages of the Big Book -- this
is closer to Emerson's Over-Soul than anything
else in American religious history:

p. 1 -- Winchester Cathedral,

p. 10 -- Bill's grandfather's God whom he
sensed while looking at the grandeur of the
starry heavens above, and

p. 12 -- Bill's conversion experience, when the
scales fell from his eyes (see the story of
the Apostle Paul's conversion in Acts 9:18 in
the New Testament), when Bill quit worrying
about religious doctrines, and trying to figure
out who Jesus was, and all that sort of thing,
and just let himself immediate intuit the
presence of the divine in all the things of
the world around him.

And conversely, when you turn instead to
"religion" in the sense of formal religious
doctrines, hundreds of religious rules,
choosing the "correct" holy book and then
literally following every one of its
complicated rules, you may in fact never get
sober at all, and will at best gain a kind
of white-knuckled dryness which is filled
with resentment, continual quarreling and
attacks on other people, and an absence of
any truly deep serenity.

The same thing happens too when you forget
Rule 62, and try to turn AA into an uptight
collection of hundreds of unbreakable rules,
whether based on narrow logic-chopping
interpretations of the Traditions, or
sorting through thousands of Conference
Advisories, or whatever else the source
of all your rules is -- this is legalism,
the attempt to win salvation by works of
the law.

http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html

Imagine how Henry David Thoreau would react to
some of the excessive legalists whom we
sometimes encounter in modern AA! He would
walk out of the meeting, go outside of town
and build a little hut there in an especially
beautiful spot, plant a little garden, and
start holding his own AA meetings there, a
meeting held for those, like him, who really
wanted to come in contact with the God of Bill
Wilson and Bill Wilson's grandfather.

So yes, a study of the nineteenth-century
New England Transcendentalists is extremely
important to understanding Bill Wilson's New
England background. If you went to high school,
let alone university, in late nineteenth-
century and early twentieth-century New England,
you couldn't escape the influence of Emerson
and Thoreau and the rest.
| 6224|6224|2010-01-16 16:49:39|Henry Cox|Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan|
Chauncey Costello got sober in the early
forty's, and died I believe in 2003 or 2004.
He lived in Pontiac, Michigan.

I believe he was the oldest member still
attending meetings up until 2002.

Any info people have about him in local A.A.
Archives or elsewhere would be helpful.
| 6225|6214|2010-01-16 19:14:32|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings?|
From Bailey, James Blair, Jon Markle, Jay Pees,
and Ben Humphreys

- - - -

From: <Baileygc23@aol.com> (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

A.A. Pamphlet: "The A.A. Group ... Where It All Begins"

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-16_theaagroup.pdf

It says in this pamphlet that it is usually six months. But each group can
do as it damn well please and usually does. Groups with a lot of old timers
might have people with thirty or more years sober as leaders and in the
same area people with very little sobriety may be leading or holding offices.
Reading the pamphlet may help one to understand.

- - - -

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

Old Bill wrote
> In our area, there is a "rule" that you must
> have at least ninety days (or even six months)
> of sobriety before you can "run" a meeting.
> In addition, several Step groups require a
> year (or even two) before someone is given
> "the chair."

In the early years people were not considered members until they had 90
days. Early membership surveys excluded the people with less than 90 days.

Jim

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)

My home group also had such guidelines. For which, having visited less
structured groups, I am forever grateful. We also added stipulations that the
member had to be a home group member, be sponsored by a home group member and
before leading a step study, have had experience working that step with the
recommendation of their sponsor.

Of course, there were plenty of other "servant" or 12th step duties that one
could be involved in early on, that make much more sense for a newcomer than
leading a meeting. Such as helping to set up, make coffee, ash trays (back in
the day), mopping up . . . etc.

My understanding is that such guidelines are independent of AA as a whole, each
group being autonomous in these matters.

- - - -

From: Jay Pees <racewayjay@gmail.com>
(racewayjay at gmail.com)

In my home group we leave it up to the member's sponsor and prefer that the
sponsor be with the sponsee for his first couple times chairing. Some
groups use six months and some do it the same as my home group. "Each group
should remain autonomous."

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

Read the pamphlet "The AA Group." This is a good guideline for such
questions. It is up to the group to decide guidelines. There really
are no "rules" per se.

Ben H.
| 6226|6224|2010-01-16 19:17:14|BobR|Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan|
Chauncey was one of the speakers at the
-- believe it or not -- young people's panel
at the 2005 International convention. I think
one of the young people was 16 with 4 years
sobriety and he had something like 61.
| 6227|6221|2010-01-16 19:18:47|ricktompkins|Re: Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA|
Thanks Laurie,

Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC hired Dr. Silkworth around 1940 and your
un-sourced quote could very well be describing the newly-formed Alcoholic
Ward of that hospital.

Someone else here at 'aahistorylovers' has more details that can come from
Dale Mitchell's biography of him (I have it somewhere but can't find it
right now to give you more info).

Knickerbocker cost much less than Towns' rates, and Dr. Silkworth effected a
partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there.

On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's
Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room.

And in Akron, St. Thomas Hospital established an alcohol treatment ward
under Dr. Bob's direction with very much the same arrangements as
Knickerbocker (but with the added blessing of Sister Ignatia's efforts). I
don't know how Akron City Hospital handled drunks after the first few years
of our 'AA Method' post-1939.

Lower costs, higher patients' responsibility (and commitment) for their own
recovery, and substantial involvement from AA volunteers seemed to be the
successful model that worked well for the many prospects who were placed
into hospitals first before coming to AA in the early days of our
Fellowship.

The Big Book speaks about pre-screening of prospects but in the different,
larger term of 'qualifying' the newcomers on whether or not they were ready
for surrender and recovery.

Silkworth wrote it early on and best, in my opinion, that "those who came to
scoff remained to pray."

Rick, Illinois
| 6228|6228|2010-01-16 20:15:30|Steven Harris|Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking|
Could someone explain in more detail what is
meant on p. 58 of the Big Book when it refers
to people "who suffer from grave emotional and
mental disorders," and when it refers on p. 62
of the Big Book to "self-delusion"?

What kind of personality disorders, delusionary
disorders, and so on, is the Big Book talking
about?
| 6229|6228|2010-01-16 20:29:27|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking|
As I understand it, the question you are asking is, what were they
talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they
referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave
emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of
the Big Book to "self-delusion"?

This basic question has been asked a number of times over the years in
the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in
Message #6195

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6195

And so far, nobody has ever written a message back giving any
satisfactory answer.

Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were
three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which had
extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed
towards AA.

1. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron.
They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who
needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps,
they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a chapter on
her program in Bill Swegan's book:
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and
famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by
Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell
for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal
success).
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html
In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared
between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality
time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain percentage
of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric
problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit
from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and
more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric
problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to
restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was
denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force.

3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and
A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in
Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also
began using this method, also with great success.
But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's
treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the
mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from
that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical
dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities.
For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still
be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way.
See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the
Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America
(Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse
Institute, 1998).
But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A.,
together with good psychological help for the small percentage
who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination
in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.

- - - -

The conclusion I think we can draw, is that the three most successful
treatment programs which were developed during the early period of
AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along
with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having
even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever
regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able
to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.

In my own experience, I have seen people get sober and stay sober
who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I
used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one
day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she eventually
got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of
the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young
woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with
ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline
Personality Disorder.

So if you have an alcohol or drug program AND you also have severe
psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair,
and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get clean and sober."

Instead, (a) start attending AA meetings and working the program, and
(b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let
that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have
done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently
found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness.
| 6230|6230|2010-01-16 21:25:34|royslev|Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk|
It seems standard to identify "a friend we
shall call Jim" in pages 35-37 of the Big Book
(in Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism")

with Ralph Furlong, whose story "Another
Prodigal Story" appeared in the first edition
of the Big Book.

But the only link I can see between those two
figures is that in "Another Prodigal Story" the
protagonist drinks an ice cream soda AFTER
drinking heavily simply in order to cover up
the smell of the booze on his breath, while
Jim in "More About Alcoholism" thinks that if
he mixes whiskey in milk, he can drink that
mixture without getting drunk.

That is not the same thing at all. That
certainly does not mean that these two are
the same person.

Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism" says that
Jim had "inherited a lucrative automobile
agency," lost it through his drinking, but
then got sober for a while, and "began to
work as a salesman for the business he had
lost through drinking" (Big Book p. 35).

"Another Prodigal Story"
http://silkworth.net/bbstories/357.html
says nothing about the author ever owning
an automobile agency, losing it, having
to go back to work there as a salesman,
getting sober in AA, or having a slip and
being committed back to the asylum once
again.

How could this be the same person?

I have checked with several good AA historians
-- Lee C., Mel B., Dick B., Ray G. -- and none
of them know of any other evidence which could
be cited which would link "Jim" in Chapter 3 of
the Big Book with the person who wrote the
story "Another Prodigal Story."

And while we are at it, why is the author
of "Another Prodigal Story" identified as
Ralph Furlong? What is the evidence for that
identification?

Both in my own research, and in talking with
some good AA historians and archivists, I
have not yet discovered any reasons for
identifying "Jim" on pp. 35-37 of the Big
Book with the author of "Another Prodigal
Story," nor have I discovered any reasons why
either of these people should be identified
as a man named Ralph Furlong.

Can anybody come up with any evidence in
support of any of these identifications?

Thanks for your responses.

Roy L. ( class of '78 )

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

This same question has been asked before,
although not nearly as clearly as you have
done it, see Message 2187, date: Sat Feb 12,
2005, from <lghforum@earthlink.net>
(lghforum at earthlink.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2187

"But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the
'Jim' who thinks 'he could take whiskey if
only he mixed it with milk!' on page 37 of
the BB 3rd Edition?"

Nobody answered the question when it was
asked back there in 2005, and now Roy L. has
asked it again, so this question is still
crying out for an answer. The answer may be
simple, but what is it?
| 6231|6224|2010-01-16 21:31:11|J. Lobdell|Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan|
My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
| 6232|6232|2010-01-17 10:27:34|nuevenueve@ymail.com|How quickly should the twelve steps be taken?|
Hello Group:

Searching for some hints of an adequate time
extension to take the twelve steps I've found
some indicators v.gr. in Fr. Pfau's "Out of
the Shadow" one year; in John Batterson's
pamphlet 4 weeks; and also 4 weeks in the next
article from a previous group message:
http://www.aabacktobasics.org/B2BArticles.html

Also, heard about AAs starting their 4th step
after 7 or more sobriety years attending meetings.

Are there in the GSO-AA literature some
approaches/suggestions on an average 12 step
timing?

Is this up to the AA member's spiritual development
and to his/her sponsor? Or, in other words, does
AA have a position/recommendation on such a time
range?

Thank you.

P.S. In the Big Book chapter five there's a
continuity indication between steps 3 and 4:
"Though our decision was vital and crucial step,
it could have little permanent effect unless
at once followed by a strenuous effort to face,
and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which
had been blocking us......"
| 6233|6215|2010-01-17 10:31:19|bbthumpthump|Re: minority opinion question|
In Area 10 (Colorado) we always ask for Minority Opinion. There is hell to pay if you don't. So, yes it is neccesary to ask for Minority Opinion. We too have had our votes swayed at the Area. The Chair asks for Minority Opinion, then the Chair asks if anyone's vote was swayed. If yes, then the Chair asks for a vote to re-open discussion, then after discussion, we vote again. That vote is final.

- - - -

From: "rvnprit" <rvnprit@hotmail.com>
(rvnprit at hotmail.com)

I had the privilege of observing the minority opinion swaying the majority at
the 2008 General Service Conference. An amended recommendation from the
Conference Public Information Committee to insert the following Questions and
Answers on posthumous anonymity into the pamphlet "Understanding Anonymity" was
intially passed by the Conference by a substantial majority of 93 in favor and
35 opposed:

"Q. In general, what is the feeling of the Fellowship in regards to posthumous
anonymity?

A. In 1988 the General Service Conference recommended that: The 1971 Conference
Advisory Action be reaffirmed: 'A.A. members generally think it unwise to break
the anonymity of a member even after his death, but in each situation the final
decision must rest with the family.'

Q. Why do obituaries sometimes state that the deceased was a member of
Alcoholics Anonymous?

A. There are many reasons why this would occur. Family members and funeral
directors sometimes write the obituaries and are not aware of A.A.'s Traditions.
On the other hand, the deceased person's A.A. membership may have been revealed
due to a conscious decision made beforehand by the A.A. member, or it may have
been made by the family. A.A. members may wish to make their personal wishes
on this matter known to their families ahead of time."

After the minority spoke, in part expressing the difficult position in which
this language would put the grieving family, a motion to reconsider was passed
and after further discussion, the amended recommendation failed on a vote of 7
in favor and 121 opposed. The language was not added to the pamphlet.

This was but one of a number of times I have seen the minority opinion sway a
hasty or mistaken majority. It is a vital part of A.A.'s collective
decision-making with respect for the minority.

In love and service,

Newton P.
| 6234|6211|2010-01-17 10:49:39|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: life of Jack Alexander|
Jack Alexander was one of three brothers, who
were all involved in journalism:

< < Jack Alexander wrote for the New Yorker
< < and the Saturday Evening Post.

< < Roy Alexander was managing editor of Time
< < Magazine from 1949 to 1960.

< < The Rev. Calvert Alexander, S.J., was for
< < 25 years editor of Jesuit Missions.

Time Magazine "Letter From The Publisher:
Jul. 8, 1966" talks about brother Roy:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,835920,00.html#ixzz0chqjigmA

WE take the occasion this week to pay tribute to a man whose name has appeared on this page for 27 years, and who during that time made an incalculable contribution to what was printed in the pages of TIME�and thereby to U.S. journalism. After serving as reporter, writer, senior editor, managing editor and editor of TIME, Roy Alexander last week, at 67, retired.

His eleven years as managing editor, the key editorial post on TIME, from 1949 to 1960, add up to the longest period anyone has held that demanding position. He brought to the job an array of talents and interests that humble most men. His Latin is a bit rusty now, but he used to read the classics in that language and in Greek as well. He is a serious student of philosophy, theology and history; he flew airplanes until a few years ago, and still drives sports cars in the manner of Jimmy Clark. He appreciates an efficient carburetor as much as a great performance at the opera. His essential commitment is to the pursuit of knowledge.

Roy Alexander was born in Omaha, graduated from St. Louis University, broke into journalism on the St. Louis Star, then was a reporter and assistant city editor on the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. A cover-to-cover reader of TIME (usually in the bathtub, he once recalled) since its launching in 1923, he came to work for this magazine in 1939 at a time when one of his many interests turned out to be of special value. A Stateside marine at the end of World War I, he had maintained an active interest in military affairs, particularly aviation. For 18 years he flew with the 110th Observation Squadron of the Missouri National Guard; he was mustered out, when he moved to New York, as a major and squadron commander. His experiences in military matters made him eminently fit to edit TIME'S WORLD BATTLEFRONTS section in World War II. Some of the best and most knowledgeable writing about that war appeared there, and as a result, TIME became must reading from the beaches of Peleliu to the desks of the Pentagon.

As managing editor, Roy had a much-admired knack for quick decisions, unimpeded by any fear of making a mistake. He also had a great rapport and a mutual confidence with the staff. Accepting cheers from all hands at a staff farewell party last week, he responded with characteristic warmth, modesty and brevity. "I think I realize now that I have meant something to all of you," he said. "You have all meant a great deal more to me."

As Roy ended his service to TIME � now to spend his time largely with his wife, seven children and 19 grandchildren � his longtime colleague, Editorial Chairman Henry R. Luce, paid him a tribute to which all of us subscribe: "We are all in debt to Roy Alexander for his outstanding performance. I salute him as a grand master of the great game of Who, What, When and Why. As managing editor, he combined an innate sense of fair play with the clear courage of his own convictions."

*Two brothers of Roy's made their own mark in journalism. Jack Alexander wrote for The New Yorker and the Saturday Evening Post; the Rev. Calvert Alexander, S.J., was for 25 years editor of Jesuit Missions.
| 6235|6214|2010-01-17 10:54:10|Tom Hickcox|Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings?|
> From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
>(jblair at videotron.ca)
>
> In the early years people were not considered
> members until they had 90 days. Early membership
> surveys excluded the people with less than 90
> days.
>

Jim, these are pretty general assertions covering a wide area.

It is my impression that membership qualifications varied widely and
depended entirely on the group.

Can you back them up with citations and include the time frame they were valid?

Thanks,

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
| 6236|6214|2010-01-17 10:59:47|Michael Oates|Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings?|
My home group encourages member with thirty days to run for meeting chair when we hold elections, those who get elected seem to stay sober longer than those who don't run. We still try to help others achieve sobriety rather than have an informative and good meeting.

Michael S. Oates
D.O.S. 09-23-1993

- - - -

From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>
(route20guy at yahoo.com)

In upstate NY the approach I have seen over the years is to expect that a
person have one year sober before chairing a meeting, or serving as secretary
etc. It is a "rule" occasionally "bent," but is the common group "rule".
| 6237|6221|2010-01-17 11:00:33|J. Lobdell|Re: Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy's Tavern?|
Duffy's Tavern? After the radio program?

- - - -

> From: ricktompkins@comcast.net
>
> Knickerbocker cost much less than Towns' rates, and Dr. Silkworth effected a
> partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there.
>
> On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's
> Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room.
| 6238|6155|2010-01-17 12:29:14|bbthumpthump|Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James|
William James's father, Henry James was a
Swedenborgian, which I'm sure influenced young
William James, and in turn Bill Wilson.

Carl Jung was also influenced by Swedenborg,
as were Kant, and of course Lois Wilson and
her family.
| 6239|6155|2010-01-17 12:36:13|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James|
The following article in a Jungian journal is useful for getting an idea of what Swedenborg's writings were about: his hearing angels speaking to him, his speaking with the spirits of the dead, his having clairvoyant knowledge of events many miles away at the very time when they were happening, and so on. In this article, we can also see the philosopher Kant rejecting Swedenborg's insistence that we can communicate with spirits, but the psychiatrist Jung eagerly reading Swedenborg's books to find out more.

This is the world in which Lois Wilson had been brought up, and the world in which she taught Bill Wilson to live: Bill's frequent attempts to speak with the spirits of the dead -- in which he felt that he was often quite successful -- did not seem odd at all to a Swedenborgian. And Bill's White Light experience at Towns Hospital c. Dec 12, 1934 would again have seemed perfectly understandable to a Swedenborgian.

The important thing is to get rid of the idea that we can make sense of Bill Wilson and the God of the Big Book in terms of modern Protestant Fundamentalist cults and televangelists. I am not trying to speak against those religious groups, simply attempting to make the point that they do not help us at all in understanding Bill Wilson or early AA. That was not at all the world that Lois and Bill Wilson lived in.

To put it crudely, for Lois and Bill (at least when Bill was sober), you did not gain salvation by getting down on your knees and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (there is nothing in the first 164 pages of the Big Book about that) -- you gained salvation via visions of White Light, experiences of the Transcendentalist Over-Soul in the wonders of the starry heavens overhead, and Swedenborgian conversations with angels who were simply the spirits of human beings who had once lived upon this earth.

I'm not trying to attack conservative Protestants here, nor (in particular) am I trying to suggest that we should hold seances at A.A. meetings where we attempt to converse with the spirits of the dead! I'm just attempting to give an accurate picture of the actual religious beliefs which Lois and Bill Wilson had.

And maybe help us all to better understand that there are "a variety of religious experiences" which A.A. members are allowed to draw on, and that we shouldn't get into the business of saying that one religious approach and one alone is the ONLY correct way of practicing "real" oldtime A.A.

But anyway, here's the article:

- - - -

Eugene Taylor, "Jung on Swedenborg, Redivivus," Jung History: A Semi-Annual Publication of the Philemon Foundation, Volume 2, Issue 2. Philemon Foundation, 119 Coulter Avenue, Suite 202, Ardmore, Pennsylvania, 19003 USA

https://philemonfoundation.org/newsletter/volume_2_issue_2/jung_on_swedenborg

[In his autobiography] Memories, Dreams, Reflections, the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Gustav Jung recounted that his turn toward psychiatry while in medical school was accompanied by voracious reading in the literature on psychic phenomena. In particular, he was drawn to Kant's Dreams of a Spirit Seer and the writing of various eighteenth and nineteenth century authors, such as Passavant, Du Prel, Eschenmayer, G�rres, Kerner, and, he said, Emanuel Swedenborg.

For man in his essence is a spirit, and together with spirits as to his interiors, wherefore he whose interiors are open to the Lord can speak with them. -- Emmanuel Swedenborg, Earths in the Universe

.... But at that moment in medical school what psychiatry lacked, Jung thought, was a dynamic language of interior experience. He was, first of all, intrigued at the time, he said, by Kant's Dreams of a Spirit-Seer, first published in 1766, four years before Kant's own inaugural dissertation.2 Kant made a radical separation between the senses and the understanding and then debunked communication with spirit entities. Sense impressions are all that we can know, even though they are only impressions of outward things. The interior life of the ego we cannot know, Kant said, even though this is all that is actually real. He stated the outlines of his philosophy and then attacked the reigning metaphysicians of the time, such as Leibniz and Wolff, by focusing on one particular case, that of Emanuel Swedenborg (1688�1772), eighteenth century scientist, philosopher, and interpreter of the Christian religious experience.

Swedenborg had spent the first half of his life mastering all the known sciences of his day. Eventually, he would write the first Swedish algebra, introduce the calculus to his countrymen, make major modifications on the Swedish hot air stove, design a flying machine, and anticipate both the nebular hypothesis and the calculation of longitude and latitude. He also studied with the great anatomist Boerhaave, learned lens grinding, made his own microscope, and assembled a physiological encyclopedia, in which he wrote on cerebral circulation, and identified the Thebecian veins in the heart.

By the time Swedenborg was forty, he had written numerous books on scientific subjects and been elected a member of the Swedish Academy of Sciences. In his own personal quest, however, he had begun in mineralogy, geology, mathematics, and astronomy, and then proceeded to anatomy and physiology, before turning his attention to sensory and rational psychology, all in search of the soul. When he reached the limits of rational consciousness, he turned within and began an examination of his own interior states. In this, he combined techniques of intensive concentration and breath control with a primitive form of dream interpretation.

The effect became evident in 1744, when he claimed he experienced an opening of the internal spiritual sense, and God spoke to him through the angels, saying that He would dictate to Swedenborg the true internal meaning of the books of the Bible. Swedenborg began immediately to work on this dispensation and set out to write what came to be known as the Arcana Colestia, or Heavenly Doctrines. It took him a dozen volumes of his own writing just to cover the first two books of the Bible. The project came to an abrupt halt in 1757, however, when Swedenborg had another vision, this time of a totally transformed Christianity, in which there was a falling away of the denominations and the arising of the Lord's New Church, as described by John in Revelations, which would come upon earth.

For the rest of his life, Swedenborg wrote about the new dispensation, publishing more than thirty volumes. His works were studied throughout Europe and had a particularly strong influence on the course of French and German Freemasonry, and occult groups among the intelligentsia variously involved in mesmerism, esoteric Christianity, Gnosticism, and the Kaballah.3 On his death, however, instead of a transformed Christianity, a new Christian denomination called The Church of the New Jerusalem sprang up, with principal centers in London, Philadelphia, and Boston. To this day the ecclesiastical history of the New Church places them as a small, conservative Christian denomination with regular church parishes, weekly Sunday services, ordained ministers, and study of the King James version of the Bible .... The transcendentalists read Swedenborg avidly, as did the brothers Henry and William James .... Paralleling these developments, Swedenborg's ideas permeated the nineteenth century American scene and became closely allied with spiritualism and mental healing through the works of such men as Thomas Lake Harris, the utopian socialist, and Andrew Jackson Davis, the clairvoyant healer.

In any event, during his own later lifetime, after retiring from Parliament, and from service to the King of Sweden, under whom he had served as the Royal Assessor of Mines, Swedenborg contented himself with gardening and writing about the New Jerusalem. As a member of the Swedish aristocracy, he had numerous encounters with the Royal family and their associates. On several occasions, it had become known that he alleged he could speak with spirits of the dead, and was called upon by a friend of the Queen to locate lost articles of significant value. While he himself tried to keep out of the limelight, Swedenborg drew national attention to himself when Stockholm broke out in a great fire. Swedenborg was 200 miles away at the time, but reported on the exact details of the fire nonetheless to residents of Goteborg, with whom he was staying. When word came two days later corroborating the details, he was briefly investigated as somehow being involved in setting the fire. His exoneration, however, caused unwanted notoriety for his alleged powers.

Eventually, Kant heard these stories and wrote to Swedenborg, but Swedenborg was too absorbed to answer his letters. Eventually, Kant sent a messenger, who spoke with Swedenborg and interviewed others. When asked why he did not answer Kant's letter, Swedenborg announced he would answer him in his next book. But when his next book came out, however, there was no mention of Kant. We can only imagine Kant's fury, half Scottish and half German, which might account for the harshness of his criticisms of Swedenborg in Dreams of a Spirit Seer .... Kant, in fact, devotes an entire section in Dreams of a Spirit Seer to debunking Swedenborg's philosophy. In particular, he takes Swedenborg to task for his absurd descriptions of heaven and hell, the planets and their inhabitants, and the fantastic impossibility of communication with angels. The angels, Swedenborg believed, were the souls of departed human beings once alive, who live in Heaven in the form of their old bodies, and consociate with those whom they have most loved on earth but who now dwell in heavenly societies, the sum total of which was the Grand Man.

In a previous report, it was stated that, while we know Jung read Swedenborg's works at around the same time he was reading these other authors, we also had no idea which ones.5 Now, due to the investigations of Sonu Shamdasani, we have a list of the books on Swedenborg that Jung, in the middle of his medical training, checked out of the Basel Library during 1898.6

.... The first work Jung checked out was The Arcana Coelestia, Swedenborg's multivolume compendium giving the true internal spiritual meaning of the first two books of the Bible and the first major work of Swedenborg's visionary era after the original revelations of 1744. The importance of the Arcana is that, referring to the opening of the interior spiritual sense, Swedenborg maintains that the images of the Bible must be read symbolically and metaphorically according to the level of spiritual self-actualization of the person. The Bible is fundamentally a map indicating the stages of spiritual consciousness one must go through to reach the final stage of regeneration. One sees, however, into one's own interiors to the level of one's ability. To the literalist, for instance, God created earth and man and woman in seven days. For Swedenborg, each day of creation is the expression of a different stage of consciousness that must be mastered in the process of self-realization. The crucifixion of Jesus and his resurrection is the death of the personal, self-centered ego and the arising of the spiritual dimension of personality, expressed as the purification of the soul, which is our link to the Divine while alive and to heaven upon our death. Revelation is not the end of the physical world, but a cataclysmic event in consciousness, an ecstatic, nay, mystical awakening in which the doors of perception are cleansed and we finally see that the natural is derived from the spiritual, not the other way around, and in this way the earth has been transformed.

A period of nine months then intervened, during which time we presume Jung was contemplating the content and meaning of the Arcana. Then in September, 1898, he checked out Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell. Heaven and Hell is a work that should be read as Swedenborg's communication on the nature of life after death. More importantly, however, it is an expanded statement of his claim that "Heaven is made by the Lord, while hell is created by man out of the misuse of the capacities of rationality and freedom." This would be a description of the angels and their Heavenly societies and their relation to the Lord, which is the Grand Man. This description takes up most of the book, together with a description of the hells, which come from vanity, self-centeredness, and lust. We see in this work the iconography of a person's interior, phenomenological world view, much as Jung would reconstruct the interior world view of his patients, or ask his clients to reconstruct in their artistic depiction of states of individuation.

Then, a month later, Jung returned to check out Earths in the Solar System, The Soul and the Body in their Correlations, and The Delights of Wisdom Concerning Conjugal Love, all on the same day. Only the general gist of these volumes can be given here. Earths in the Solar System presents Swedenborg's view that, not only are there spirits on the after death plane, they also inhabit other planets besides earth. The rationale for this is threefold. First, because the universe is bigger than the earth alone (in other words,consciousness is not defined or even solely made up of the rational waking state), and there is no reason to presume that we are the only entities out there; second, because nearly all cultures on earth report such communications, except those inhabiting western modernist societies; and third, because Swedenborg reported that he was visited by spirits from these other planets and was just chronicling what he had seen and heard.

The Soul and the Body and their Correlations is Swedenborg's restatement of his doctrine of correspondences -- that every aspect of the physical world is somehow reflected in the life of the soul. Jung perpetually returned to this linkage with his interest in the mind/body problem, and the personal equation in science; that is, how we simultaneously can know and experience phenomena, a question that formed the basis for his later exchange with the physicist Wolfgang Pauli. The Doctrines Concerning Conjugal Love expresses Swedenborg's revelation about the spiritual relation of the sexes in the process of regeneration. Man can only learn to love God through the love he experiences through others, and again, the essential relation of the opposites emerges. In addition, one cannot help but notice that this is also the controversial volume in which Swedenborg, himself an unmarried man with no apparent consort throughout his life, advocates that it is permissible for a married man to take on a second partner.

In any event, there is more to be said about the nature of the connections between Jung and Swedenborg's ideas. It is sufficient here to indicate that new scholarship in this area is proceeding.

Footnotes
1.F.X. Charet ((1993). Spiritualism and the Foundations of C. G. Jung's Psychology. Albany: SUNY Press.) has implied that Jung's motivation for reading this literature had been the recent death of his father, in hopes of communicating with him from beyond the grave. This might be plausible if Charet had more evidence from Jung himself on this point, but it seems even less likely given that Charet's project to link Jung to spiritualism omits a crucial focus on the process of self-realization, of which spiritist phenomena must be considered a mere subsidiary and not a goal in and of themselves. Charet has spiritism as his main focus, with little mention of its relation to the process of individuation. Rather, supernormal powers are an epiphenomenon in the process of self-realization and only indicative of one's progress, at least according to the Yoga texts with which Jung was most familiar. Attachment to them leads to karmic rebirth in a lower plane, knowing that a higher exists, which is worse, the text says, than not knowing that there is a higher interior life at all.
2.Kant, Immanuel (1915/1766). Dreams of a Spirit Seer, Illustrated by Dreams of Metaphysics. Tr. E.F. Goerwitz, ed. By F Sewall. 2nd ed. London: New Church Press.
3.Gabay, Alfred (2005). The Covert Enlightenment: Eighteenth century counter-culture and its aftermath. West Chester, PA: Swedenborg Foundation; Taylor, EI. (1999). Shadow Culture: Psychology and spirituality in America. Washington, DC: Counterpoint.
4.Passavant, Johann Karl (1821). Untersuchungen �ber den Lebensmagnetismus und das Hellsehen. Frankfurt am Main : H. L. Br�nner; DuPrel, Karl Ludwig (1970 edition). Das R�tsel des Menschen. Wiesbaden: L�with; Eschenmayer, Carl Adolph (1837). Konflikt zwischen Himmel und H�lle, an dem D�mon eines besessenen M�dchens. [Caroline Stadelbauer]. Nebst einem Wort an Dr. Strauss. T�bingen, Leipzig, verlag der Buchhandlung Zu-Guttenberg; Kerner, Justinus. (1835). Geschichten Besessener neuerer Zeit. Beobachtungen aus dem Gebiete kakod�monisch-magnetischer Erscheinungen. Karlsruhe: Braun. G�rres, Joseph von, (1854-55) La mystique divine, naturelle, et diabolique, par G�rres, ouvrage traduit de l'allemand par M. Charles Sainte-Foi. Paris, Mme Vve Poussielgue-Rusand.
5.Taylor, EI (1991). Jung and his intellectual context: The Swedenborgian connection, Studia Swedenborgiana, 7:2.
6.Sonu Shamdasani, by permission. Translation courtesy of Ms. Angela Sullivan.
7.Compare, for instance, with vishwavirat svarupam, the univsersal form of the cosmic man, in Tantric Hinduism. unmarried man with no apparent consort throughout his life, advocates that it is permissible for a married man to take on a second partner.
| 6240|6221|2010-01-17 12:40:06|ricktompkins|Re: Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy's Tavern?|
I stand corrected, Jared, searched for and
found the biography -- hopefully Hazelden will
start reprinting Dale Mitchell's work again!

The Day Room separating new alcoholic patients
and those approaching discharge was named Duffy's
Tavern not 'Dusty's.'

And, Dr. Silkworth was officially hired as
director of alcoholic treatment at Knickerbocker
Hospital in 1945, not 1940.

Mea culpa and best regards, Rick

- - - -

From: J. Lobdell
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010

Do you mean Duffy's Tavern? ... After the radio program?
| 6241|6224|2010-01-17 12:41:55|happycycler|Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan|
Please See:

U.S. Social Security Death Index
Search Results
Chauncey COSTELLO
Birth Date: 30 Dec 1910
Death Date: 11 May 2006
Social Security Number: 386-01-6198
State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: Michigan
Death Residence Localities
ZIP Code: 48342
Localities: Pontiac, Oakland, Michigan

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Karl K.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
| 6242|6242|2010-01-17 12:43:34|george|William James Symposium|
For those who can't get enough of William James, consider a summer symposium divided between the White Mountains of New Hampshire and Cambridge, Massachusetts.

http://www.wjsociety.org/

William James Symposium

A Symposium for Honoring
â€"and making use ofâ€"William James:
In the Footsteps of William James

The William James Society is planning a long-weekend symposium, August 6-9, 2010, to honor the life of James on the occasion of the hundredth anniversary of his death. In the spirit of James, the symposium, “In the Footsteps of William James,” will be an opportunity to explore the local settings of James’s life and to reflect on James’s ability to encounter experience afresh and approach problems creatively.
The symposium will therefore have two dimensions and we seek presenters for both:
1. with the symposium taking place at Chocorua, NH, and Cambridge, MA, we call for presenters familiar with his life in either or both places who could serve as guides for the participants; there are some residents in both places that will already be serving this role, so our primary call is for our second dimension;
2. for a symposium as much about the public intellectual significance of James’s thought as his scholarly contributions, we call for presenters who can address issues of historic and contemporary relevance as illuminated by James’s life and work, for sessions to include topics such as these:
- The Pragmatist Turn, and its potential for reconciling disputes and fostering common sense in public discourse,
- Values Voters and Valuing Citizenship, on the uses of his theories for comprehending differences and encouraging listening, and his speaking out against social injustice,
- Educational Renewal, from James’s own classroom experiences to his talks to teachers and about education, to his potential to foster opening of minds,
- Spirituality and Belief, with James in anticipation of the endurance of religion and spirituality in secular settings and of theories for embracing differences of belief,
- Mental Health, from his theory of habits to his inspirations to help people with addiction and to encourage the research in positive psychology,
- Appraisals of James by his colleagues, friends, students, and successors in various fields.
Please send an abstract of 100 words and a brief description of qualifications to the William James Symposium Committee by January 15, 2010 to:
*Lynn Bridgers: l.bridgers@worldnet.att.net;
*Paul Croce: pcroce@stetson.edu; or Box 8274, Stetson University, 421 N. Woodland Blvd., DeLand, FL 32720; or
*John Kaag: John_Kaag@UML.edu; or Department of Philosophy, University of Massachusetts, Lowell, 102 Olney Hall, Lowell, MA 01856

George Cleveland
| 6243|6155|2010-01-17 12:47:24|kevinr1211|Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James|
Henry James (the father) was also thought to
be an alcoholic. The family put a lot of money
into the children's education though, with good
results! The money came from the grandfather...

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"bbthumpthump" wrote:
>
> William James's father, Henry James was a
> Swedenborgian, which I'm sure influenced young
> William James, and in turn Bill Wilson.
>
> Carl Jung was also influenced by Swedenborg,
> as were Kant, and of course Lois Wilson and
> her family.
>
| 6244|6232|2010-01-17 12:47:56|Jay Pees|How quickly should the twelve steps be taken?|
On pages 75-76 of our Big Book it indicates
the waiting period to do Step 6 is about 1 hour.
| 6245|6232|2010-01-17 14:01:06|Bill Lash|Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken?|
Starting their 4th Step after 7 years? Wow, that's just crazy & certainly
not the AA message! I always like sticking to what the AA literature says
so here's an article I wrote called "When do we work the Steps" compiling
statements mostly from the Big Book's clear-cut directions:

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/When_Do_We_Work_the_Steps.pdf

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

When Do You Want to Get Well?

by Barefoot Bill

"I wonder how many alcoholics upon finding out they had a deadly ailment and a doctor had a cure would sit in the
doctor's waiting room 90 times in 90 days (or for a year or more) and wait for the medicine to be administered to them. I
also wonder how many alcoholics do the same thing concerning our 12 Steps; they go to 90 meetings in 90 days hoping
to have a spiritual awakening without taking the Steps." - Archie M.
I have been scolded a few times (by fellow AA's) because of the fact that I sometimes share at meetings about how the
Steps are meant to be worked immediately and quickly. I've been told that this "theory" will "harm" newcomers (having
only a few days, a few weeks, or a few months) who could not possibly be "ready" to do the work yet. Then I'm usually
told that these new members should just go to meetings for a while and eventually they'll "know" when they are ready to
get into the Program. In the early days of AA, when a new person showed up to their first meeting and asked about when
they were going to get into working the Steps, established members usually asked them, "When do you want to get well?
If you want to get well now, we'll be working the Steps now. If you DON'T want to get well now, I guess you can put off
the Steps, but by doing so you're probably going to drink." I do not agree that we first get our life together and then turn to
God. I believe that we turn to God and then, AND ONLY THEN, do we begin to get our life together. That's exactly what
the Steps are all about. As a matter of fact, Bill Wilson got into the Steps after a few days, Dr. Bob got into the Steps after
one day, and Bill Dotson (AA #3) also got into the Steps after a few days. These were the first three members of AA and
none of them ever drank again. But for me the bottom line is, what does the AA Program and the AA literature have to
say about it? Since it says, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path," then what does the
PATH say? The following is a list of timeframes found in the Big Book, and is the basis for my experience and the
experience of those I've worked with. Page and paragraph numbers are from the new Fourth edition.
Page xxvi:4 - "Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as an altruistic plane, we favor hospitalization for
the alcoholic who is very jittery or befogged. More often than not, it is imperative that a man's brain be cleared before he
is approached, as he has then a better chance of understanding and accepting what we have to offer." (So it says we
need to be detoxed off of alcohol first, which usually takes two or three days but in extreme cases takes four or five days,
before getting into the work. See also page xxvii:7.)
Page xxvii:5 - "Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this book (Bill Wilson) came under our care in this
hospital and while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical application AT ONCE." (In about three days
Bill was into working almost all of what later became the AA program. See also page 13.)
Page xxvii:7 - "Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a
definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures (like the Steps) can be of maximum benefit." (For
psychological measures to benefit us we need to be applying them. So again, it's saying we need to be detoxed off of
alcohol first, which usually takes two or three days but in extreme cases takes five or six days, before getting into the
Steps. See also page xxvi:4.)
Page 9 - "The door opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something about his eyes. He was
inexplicably different. What had happened?
"I pushed a drink across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what had got into the fellow. He
wasn't himself.
"'Come, what's all this about?' I queried.
"He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, 'I've got religion.'
"I was aghast. So that was it last summer an alcoholic crackpot; now, I suspected, a little cracked about religion. He had
that starry-eyed look. Yes, the old boy was on fire all right. But bless his heart, let him rant! Besides, my gin would last
longer than his preaching.
"But he did no ranting. In a matter of fact way he told how two men had appeared in court, persuading the judge to
suspend his commitment. They had told of a simple religious idea and a practical program of action. That was two months
ago and the result was self-evident. It worked!
"He had come to pass his experience along to me -- if I cared to have it. I was shocked, but interested. Certainly I was
interested. I had to be, for I was hopeless." (So we don't have to wait very long to start doing Twelfth Step work, all that's
required first is that we have worked most of the 12 Steps.)
Pages 13 thru 15 - "At the hospital I (Bill Wilson) was separated from alcohol for the last time (Bill was admitted to Towns
Hospital at 2:30PM on December 11, 1934. Bill was 39 years old.). Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium
tremens. There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself
UNRESERVEDLY under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I
was lost (Bill takes what later became Step Three. He reached the conclusions of Step One on page 8:1 and Step Two on
12:4). I RUTHLESSLY faced my sins (what later became Step Four) and became willing to have my new-found Friend
(God) take them away, root and branch (what later became Steps Six and Seven). I have not had a drink since.
My schoolmate (Ebby Thacher) visited me, and I FULLY acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies (what later
became Step Five). We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire
willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (what later became Step Eight). NEVER was I to be critical
of them. I was to right ALL such matters to the UTMOST of my ability (what later became Step Nine).
I was to test my thinking by the new God-consciousness within. Common sense would thus become un-common sense
(these two lines refer to what later became Step Ten). I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking ONLY for direction and
strength to meet my problems as He would have me. NEVER was I to pray for myself, except as my requests bore on my
usefulness to others (what later became Step Eleven). Then only might I expect to receive. But that would be in great
measure. My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a new relationship with my Creator; that I
would have the elements of a way of living which answered ALL my problems (what later became the first two parts of
Step Twelve). Belief in the power of God, plus enough willingness, honesty and humility to establish and maintain the new
order of things, were the ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS.
Simple, but not easy; a price HAD to be paid. It meant DESTRUCTION of self-centeredness. I MUST turn in ALL things to
the Father of Light who presides over us all.
These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I FULLY accepted them, the effect was electric. There
was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never know. There was utter confidence. I felt
lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually,
but His impact on me was sudden and profound.
For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor (Dr. Silkworth), to ask if I were still sane. He listened in
wonder as I talked.
Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has happened to you I don't understand. But you had better hang on to it.
Anything is better than the way you were." The good doctor now sees many men who have such experiences. He knows
that they are real.
While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have
what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in turn might work with others.
My friend had emphasized the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of demonstrating these principles in ALL my affairs. Particularly
was it IMPERATIVE to work with others as he had worked with me (what later became the last part of Step Twelve). Faith
without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! FOR IF AN ALCOHOLIC FAILED TO
PERFECT AND ENLARGE HIS SPIRITUAL LIFE THROUGH WORK AND SELF-SACRIFICE FOR OTHERS, HE
COULD NOT SURVIVE THE CERTAIN TRIALS AND LOW SPOTS AHEAD. If he did not work, he would SURELY drink
again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that." (So two or three
days after Bill is admitted into the hospital on December 11th he has a spiritual experience AS THE RESULT of working
almost all the Steps immediately and quickly in a few days. He THEN talks with his doctor about what happened to him on
December 14th and is released from the hospital on the afternoon of December 18th).
Page 58:2 - "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - THEN YOU ARE
READY TO TAKE CERTAIN STEPS." (I'd like to suggest that they are talking about TWELVE certain steps and you'll
soon see why. Some say that we stay within the first three Steps for a year when you first get to AA, but please notice
what it says next about Step Three on pages 63:4 -- 64:0.)
Page 63:4 - "NEXT we launch out on a course of VIGOROUS action, the first step of which is a personal housecleaning,
which many of us had never attempted. Though our decision (which is the Third Step decision) was a vital and crucial
step, it could have LITTLE PERMANENT EFFECT unless AT ONCE followed by a STRENUOUS EFFORT to face, AND
to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us." (So it's saying that this Third Step decision is important
but will have LITTLE PERMANENT EFFECT unless we IMMEDIATELY follow it up with an INTENSELY ACTIVE
EFFORT to work Steps Four through Nine, because where we face these things that block us from turning our will and our
lives over to God is in Steps Four, Five, and Six; and where we get rid of what blocks us from turning our will and lives
over is in Steps Seven, Eight, and Nine. So the way we turn our will and lives over to the care of God as we understand
Him is by IMMEDIATELY and STRENUOUSLY working AT LEAST the six middle Steps.)
Page 72:2 - "We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another person (doing a Fifth Step) when we see
good reasons why we should do so. The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking. Time
after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives. Trying to avoid this humbling
experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got drunk. Having persevered with the rest of the
program, they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning. They took
inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear;
they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty,
in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life story (Fifth Step)." (It's talking about
NEWCOMERS working ALL of the Steps.)
Page 74:2 - "Notwithstanding the GREAT NECESSITY for discussing ourselves with someone (doing a Fifth Step), it may
be one is so situated that there is no suitable person available. If that is so, this step may be postponed, ONLY, however,
if we hold ourselves in COMPLETE readiness to go through with it at the FIRST opportunity." (See also page 75:1.)
Page 75:1 - "When we decide who is to hear our story (our Fifth Step), WE WASTE NO TIME." (So after we write our
three Fourth Step inventories of resentment, fear, and harms; it says we IMMEDIATELY share our Fifth Step.)
Page 75:3 - "Returning home we find a place where we can be quiet for AN HOUR, carefully reviewing what we have
done." (It's saying that IMMEDIATELY following our Fifth Step, we spend ONE HOUR of undisturbed and uninterrupted
quiet time, seeing if the foundation we have built with our first five Steps is done honestly and to the best of our ability.
Then see page 76:1.)
Page 76:1 - "If we can answer to our satisfaction (the questions we ask ourselves IMMEDIATELY following our Fifth Step
in the previous paragraph), we THEN look at Step Six. We have emphasized willingness as being indispensable. ARE WE
NOW READY to let God remove from us ALL the things which we have admitted are objectionable (in our Fourth and Fifth
Steps)? Can He NOW take them ALL - everyone? If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us
be willing." (So Six immediately follows the hour we took after Five. So Five and Six are both done on the same day.)
Page 76:2 - "WHEN READY (which answers one of the questions of Step Six), we say something like this: 'My Creator, I
am NOW willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you NOW remove from me every single defect
of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to
do your bidding. Amen.' We have then completed Step Seven." (In Step Six, we were asked if we were NOW ready. If
we are, we then do Step Seven. If there are SOME defects we are NOT willing to go to God with, we pray for the
willingness to ask God to help us with them, but go on to Step Seven with the defects we ARE willing to ask God to help
us with. Either way, Step Five, Six, and Seven are all done on the same day. Steps Three and Seven are then a daily
striving and prayer, practiced for the rest of our lives.)
Page 76:3 - "NOW we need more action, without which we find that "Faith without works is dead." Let's look at Steps
Eight and Nine. We have a list of ALL persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it
when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self-appraisal. NOW we go out to our fellows and repair the
damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will
and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes. Remember it was agreed at the
beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol." (NOW is mentioned twice in this paragraph, and even
says, "NOW we go out". So Steps Five through Nine are ALL done together (in rapid succession), according to the
directions in the Big Book. If there are a few amends we are NOT willing to make, we pray for the willingness but proceed
with the amends we ARE willing to make.)
Page 83:3 - "Some people cannot be seen -- we send them an honest letter. And there may be a valid reason for
postponement in some cases (in doing Step 9). But we DON"T DELAY IF IT CAN BE AVOIDED."
Page 84:2 - "This thought (the thought of the Ninth Step promises ALWAYS materializing IF we work for them) brings us
to Step Ten, which suggests we CONTINUE to take personal inventory and CONTINUE to set right ANY new mistakes
AS WE GO ALONG (so the Tenth Step is NOT done just at night but should be done MOMENT BY MOMENT, AS WE
GO ALONG throughout the day). We VIGOROUSLY commenced THIS way of living (the Steps Ten and Eleven "way of
living") AS WE CLEANED UP THE PAST (we begin to clean up the past in Step Nine.)." (So Ten and Eleven begin to be
worked as soon as we start making amends.) "�It should continue for a LIFETIME (So we never stop working Step
Ten)."
Page 95:1 -- "Sometimes a new man is anxious to proceed (in the Big Book's Original Manuscript, this word was replaced
with, "make a decision and discuss his affairs") at once, and you may be tempted to let him do so. This is sometimes a
mistake (they are only talking about the first visit here). If he has trouble later, he is likely to say you rushed him." (So it's
saying that on the FIRST visit we shouldn't get the new person into the Steps yet, but please see 96:2 to see what it says
about the SECOND visit.)
Page 96:2 - Suppose now you are making your second visit to a (new) man. He has read this volume (the Big Book) and
says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery. HAVING HAD THE EXPERIENCE
YOURSELF, you can give him MUCH practical advice. Let him know you are available of he wishes to make a decision
(Step Three) and tell his story (Steps Four and Five), but do not insist upon it if he prefers to consult someone else.
Page 156:3 - But life was not easy for the two friends (Bill Wilson & Dr. Bob). Plenty of difficulties presented themselves.
Both saw that they MUST keep SPIRITUALLY active. One day they called up the head nurse of a local hospital. They
explained their need and inquired if she had a first class alcoholic prospect.
She replied, "Yes, we've got a corker (Bill Dotson, whose sober date is June 26, 1935). He's just beaten up a couple of
nurses. Goes off his head completely when he's drinking. But he's a grand chap when he's sober, though he's been in
here eight times in the last six months. Understand he was once a well-known lawyer in town, but just now we've got him
strapped down tight."
Here was a prospect all right but, by the description, none too promising. The use of SPIRITUAL principles in such case
was not so well understood as it is now. But one of the friends said, "Put him in a private room. We'll be down."
Two days later, a future fellow of Alcoholics Anonymous stared glassily at the strangers beside his bed. "Who are you
fellows, and why this private room? I was always in a ward before."
Said one of the visitors, "We're giving you a treatment for alcoholism."
Hopelessness was written large on the man's face as he replied, "Oh, but that's no use. Nothing would fix me. I'm a goner.
The last three times, I got drunk on the way home from here. I'm afraid to go out the door. I can't understand it." (Part of
Bill D.'s First Step conclusion, and please notice the Twelfth Step work over the next few paragraphs.)
For an hour, the two friends told him about their drinking experiences. Over and over, he would say: "That's me. That's
me. I drink like that."
The man in the bed was told of the acute poisoning from which he suffered, how it deteriorates the body of an alcoholic
and warps his mind. There was much talk about the mental state preceding the first drink.
"Yes, that' me," said the sick man, "the very image. You fellows know your stuff all right, but I don't see what good it'll do.
You fellows are somebody. I was once, but I'm a nobody now. From what you tell me, I know more than ever I can't stop
(more of Bill D.'s First Step conclusion)." At this both the visitors burst into a laugh. Said the future Fellow Anonymous:
"Damn little to laugh about that I can see."
The two friends spoke of their SPIRITUAL experience and told him about the COURSE OF ACTION they carried out.
He interrupted: "I used to be strong for the church, but that won't fix it. I've prayed to God on hangover mornings and
sworn that I'd never touch another drop but by nine o'clock I'd be boiled as an owl."
Next day found the prospect more receptive. He had been thinking it over. "Maybe you're right," he said. "God ought to be
able to do anything (Bill D.'s Second Step conclusion)." Then he added, "He sure didn't do much for me when I was trying
to fight this booze racket alone."
ON THE THIRD DAY the lawyer gave his life to the care and direction of his Creator (Bill D.'s Step Three decision), and
said he was perfectly willing to do ANYTHING necessary (Steps Four through Twelve). His wife came, scarcely daring to
be hopeful, though she thought she saw something different about her husband already. He had begun to have a spiritual
experience.
That afternoon he put on his clothes and walked from the hospital a free man. He entered a political campaign, making
speeches, frequenting men's gathering places of all sorts, often staying up all night. He lost the race by only a narrow
margin. But he had found God is and in finding God had found himself.
That was in June, 1935. He never drank again. He too, has become a respected and useful member of his community. He
has helped other men recover, and is a power in the church from which he was long absent. (So Bill Dotson, or AA #3,
got right into the Steps within a few days, as was the practice in early AA.)
Page 262:6 - The day before I was due to go back to Chicago (this is during the summer of 1937), a Wednesday and Dr.
Bob's day off, he had me down to the office and we spent THREE OR FOUR HOURS formally going through the Six Step
program (which later became AA's Twelve Step program) as it was at that time. The six steps were: 1. Complete deflation
(which later became Step 1). 2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power (which later became Steps 2,3,6,7 &
11). 3. Moral inventory (which later became Steps 4 & 10). 4. Confession (which later became Step 5). 5. Restitution
(which later became Steps 8 & 9). 6. Continued work with other alcoholics (which later became Step 12). Dr. Bob led me
through ALL of these steps. At the moral inventory (Steps 4 & 5), he brought up some of my bad personality traits or
character defects, such as selfishness, conceit, jealousy, carelessness, intolerance, ill-temper, sarcasm and resentments.
We went over these at great length and then he finally asked me if I wanted these defects of character removed (Step 6).
When I said yes, we both knelt at his desk and prayed, each of us asking to have these defects taken away (Step 7). This
picture is still vivid. If I live to be a hundred, it will always stand out in my mind. It was very impressive and I wish that
every A.A. could have the benefit of this type of sponsorship today. Dr. Bob ALWAYS emphasized the religious angle
VERY STRONGLY, and I think it helped. I know it helped me. Dr. Bob then led me through the restitution step, in which I
made a list of ALL of the persons I had harmed (Step 8), and worked out ways and means of slowly making restitution
(Step 9). (So again, most of the Steps being worked in one day.)
Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, page 101 -- "Dorothy S.M. recalled the 1937 meetings�"The newcomers surrendered
in the presence of all those other people." After the surrender, many of the steps -- involving inventory, admission of
character defects, and making restitution -- were taken within a matter of days."
| 6246|6228|2010-01-19 12:09:35|Steven Harris|Re: Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking|
Thank you, I identifed with about six or seven
personailty disorders that I come to understand
as alcoholism ... as well as the maladjustment
to life that Dr. William Silkworth talks about
in The Doctor's Opinion ... I really understand
that I have not just been physically ill but
mentally ill .... Thank u again cheers...

Sent from my iPhone

- - - -

Big Book, "The Doctor's Opinion"

"The physician who, at our request, gave us this let-
ter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in
another statement which follows. In this statement he
confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture
must believe--that the body of the alcoholic is quite as
abnormal as his mind. It did not satisfy us to be told
that we could not control our drinking just because we
were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight
from reality, or were outright mental defectives. These
things were true to some extent, in fact, to a consider-
able extent with some of us. But we are sure that our
bodies were sickened as well."

"'The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and
in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are,
of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable.
We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going
on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and
make many resolutions, but never a decision.'"

"'There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that
he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking.
He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type
who always believes that after being entirely free from
alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without
danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, per-
haps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom
a whole chapter could be written.'"

- - - -

On 17 Jan 2010, at 04:17, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> As I understand it, the question you are asking is, what were they
> talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they
> referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave
> emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of
> the Big Book to "self-delusion"?
>
> This basic question has been asked a number of times over the years in
> the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in
> Message #6195
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6195
>
> And so far, nobody has ever written a message back giving any
> satisfactory answer.
>
> Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were
> three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which
> had
> extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed
> towards AA.
>
> 1.. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron.
> They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who
> needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps,
> they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a
> chapter on
> her program in Bill Swegan's book:
> http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html
>
> 2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and
> famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by
> Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell
> for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal
> success).
> http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html
> In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared
> between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality
> time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain
> percentage
> of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric
> problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit
> from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and
> more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric
> problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to
> restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was
> denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force.
>
> 3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and
> A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in
> Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also
> began using this method, also with great success.
> But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's
> treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the
> mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from
> that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical
> dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities.
> For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still
> be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way.
> See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the
> Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America
> (Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse
> Institute, 1998).
> But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A.,
> together with good psychological help for the small percentage
> who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination
> in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.
>
> - - - -
>
> The conclusion I think we can draw, is that the three most successful
> treatment programs which were developed during the early period of
> AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along
> with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having
> even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever
> regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able
> to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.
>
> In my own experience, I have seen people get sober and stay sober
> who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I
> used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one
> day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she
> eventually
> got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of
> the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young
> woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with
> ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline
> Personality Disorder.
>
> So if you have an alcohol or drug program AND you also have severe
> psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair,
> and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get
> clean and sober."
>
> Instead, (a) start attending AA meetings and working the program, and
> (b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let
> that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have
> done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently
> found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness.
>
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6247|6232|2010-01-19 12:18:46|stevec012000|Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken?|
From Steve C., Bailey, jax760, and elisabeth98043

- - - -

From "stevec012000"
<steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

Page 98 in Not God claims that Bill finally
took his fifth when he met Father Dowling.
That was several years after his meeting with
Ebby. I am sure Dr. Kurtz can elaborate on
that more if he cares. Unless I am reading
this wrong.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

DR Bob said the steps simmer down in the last to
love and service. People giving rules for the
steps forget they are suggested, and our book
is suggested only.

There are stories in AA of Akron AAers taking
a novice into an upstairs room and getting him
on his knees and running him quickly through
the required dogma of the time.

- - - -

From: "jax760" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

From Appendix II, page 569

"What often takes place in a few months
could hardly be accomplished by years of
self-discipline."

What often takes place is a "spiritual experience"
or "spiritual awakening" also described as a
"personality change", "religious experiences,
"sudden and spectacular upheavals" "sudden
revolutionary changes", "Godconsciousness",
"vast change in feeling and outlook",
"transformations", "profound alterations"

"Having had a spiritual awakening as THE RESULT
OF THESE STEPS....."

which often takes place in a few months.

"self discipline" ....trying to not to drink and
just attending the meetings?

God Bless

- - - -

From: "Elisabeth" <elisabeth98043@yahoo.com>
(elisabeth98043 at yahoo.com)

If you read the old literature, it says that the
newcomers weren't even allowed into the meetings
until they had done all 6 steps (as they were back
then).
| 6248|6215|2010-01-19 12:35:21|ricktompkins|Re: minority opinion question|
Another example, with background on the AA
principles involved, of the Minority Opinion
in action at the Area level. From one of the
Appendices of Area 20 (Northern Illinois)'s
published history book, used with permission.

Rick, Illinois
_____

OUR THIRD LEGACY AND A REMARKABLE CONSENSUS

A number of factors apply to the search for a consensus from the
groups of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the decisions eventually approved on
any particular issue show the use of sound A.A. principles. Any group
conscience is hopefully an informed group conscience, where the
presentation of background facts combine with current views toward a course
of positive action. While not always announced in emphasis, resulting
decisions reflect an A.A. principle stated in the Twelve Concepts for World
Service (adopted at the 1962 General Service Conference) as Warranty Four of
Concept Twelve: "that all important decisions be reached by discussion,
vote, and whenever possible, by substantial unanimity." The idea in our
Second Tradition of "a loving God as he may express himself in our group
conscience" serves as both a motivation for any proposal a group votes on,
and also becomes a vehicle that carries the results of voted motions.

Voting at the Assemblies of Northern Illinois Area 20 always prove the
vitality of A.A. principles. Our voting and search for an Area 20
consensus is not always completed in one vote, however. A thorough
discussion continues before and after voting a specific motion, as Concept
Five's "right of appeal" allows for the presentation of the minority
opinion. In Alcoholics Anonymous, seen in voting from individual groups
to Districts to Assemblies onward to the General Service Conference, the
minority opinion is well considered. Our procedure of voting has always
provided the opportunity for a reconsideration vote. The final decision on
any proposed motion is an authentic informed group conscience where
minority views blend into the outcome.

Full NIA consideration was give to a particular motion presented at
the 1990 Spring Assembly held in Joliet, resulting in an extraordinary
outcome when the Assembly considered its minority views. NIA Delegate
Phyllis W. discussed the effort of another Area for the General Service
Conference to approve, develop, and publish an A.A. pamphlet on "Unity."
With the Spring Assembly held about one month before that year's Conference,
Phyllis reported that some of the large amounts of her mail discussed the
proposal for the new pamphlet. She shared the ideas, the details, and
the background of the proposal in the morning session during the Delegate's
Report, allowing enough time for a thorough Assembly discussion before
voting its consensus in the afternoon session.

The first Assembly vote demonstrated Area 20 as being very much in
favor of the 1990 Conference looking into developing a pamphlet on A.A.
Unity, with less than 10% voting a minority view. Then, as NIA
Assemblies always proceed, the request was made to hear from the minority
"if it wished to address the issue." Four or five NIA trusted servants
shared their reservations on developing a "Unity" pamphlet and the ideas
are included here to help explain the second vote on the proposal. A past
Delegate reported that of A.A. pamphlets in 1990 distribution, the
subject of A.A. unity was presented and announced over sixteen times.
Whether a "Unity" pamphlet was really needed or would actually be read by
the Fellowship appeared as the strong consideration for the Assembly NOT to
approve its development. Another spoke on the idea that A.A. Unity, one
of the Three Legacies of our Fellowship, could be thought of as a living,
existing, and flexible entity. A new pamphlet on the subject might either
be incomplete or detract from the real forces of unity at work in Alcoholics
Anonymous. Another spoke of A.A.'s Tradition One, where both our common
welfare and personal recovery depend upon A.A. unity. By wisely placing
the word "unity" in the short form of the First Tradition, the remaining
eleven Traditions literally describe the limits and explain the results that
the principles of A.A. unity bring to our Fellowship.

The motion was called for a second vote, and as reported in the
Spring Assembly minutes by the NIA Secretary, "Upon a standing vote it was
evidenced that there was a total turnaround of the opinion of the Assembly
and the question was denied." The second vote unanimously declined
approval for developing a new pamphlet on "Unity." The 1990 General
Service Conference also declined to proceed with the pamphlet's development.
The NIA Spring Assembly, after hearing the views expressed by its minority
vote, fully reconsidered the thoughtful ideas presented and delivered its
informed group conscience, a substantial unanimity and a truly remarkable
consensus.
| 6249|6214|2010-01-19 13:04:06|allan_gengler|Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings?|
In my little area of Tennessee we ask a person
have six months to chair, but other groups have
no such "requirement." I've never seen an
official AA stance on this and from what I
know about traditions and concepts that probably
wouldn't happen since leadership comes from the
Group Up to GSO and not the other way around.

Interestingly in "Dr. Bob and The Good Oldtimers,"
some of the early meetings at T. Henry's house
weren't even run by alcoholics but my Oxford
Groupers.

That was probably a good thing, considering
the state of the sober few at the time.

--Al

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

There is a lot of AA literature that encourages
AAers to work with others from the start.

Particularly the first chapter of the big book
said that was it imperative to work with others.

On page 159 Bill W says he could leave people
with less than three months sober as they were
trying to work with others.

But remember also that Bill W says in a couple
of places there was freedom of thought and action.
Groups do have the right to be wrong, according
to Bill W.
| 6250|6224|2010-01-19 13:51:15|Arthur S|Re: Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan|
Good grief - is there absolutely no respect on
this web site for AA's Anonymity Traditions?

While AAHistoryLovers is not an AA entity, the
AA members who submit material should practice
at least a token respect for the Traditions.

Arthur

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

Not sure if Social Security #'s should be
posted? What does that have to do with recovery
from alcoholism?

-cm
| 6251|6251|2010-01-19 14:02:31|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan |
Mel B. <melb@buckeye-access.com>
(melb at buckeye-access.com)

Glenn,

I notice there's been some interest in Chauncey Costello, a real oldtimer who lived in Pontiac, Michigan.  I sent the following comment to jlobdell and suggested he circulate it.  Perhaps you might consider circulating it to History Lovers.

Mel Barger

I met Chauncey Costello in late 1950 in an AA meeting at the All Saints Episcopal Church in Pontiac, Michigan.  With about nine years, he was the oldest in the group in terms of sobriety.  I had just moved to Pontiac from my hometown, Norfolk, Nebraska, where I had my last drink on April 15, 1950.  I stood in awe of Chauncey, as did others in the Stevens Group (so called because we met in Stevens Hall at the church).
 
He had a small business operating bulldozers, etc., a trade he followed all of his life.  In later years, when Guest House was opened for Catholic priests in nearby Lake Orion, he did much of the bulldozing on the grounds of the estate they used.
 
Chauncey stayed active in AA throughout his life.  He had found AA in 1941 after a nudge from a friendly judge who had just heard about the program (and had previously been referring drunks to the Salvation Army!).
 
Chauncey considered himself a blue-collar man and at first felt a bit uncomfortable with the lawyers and other professional men he met at his first AA meeting, in Birmingham, Michigan.  But he quickly got into the swim of things and became highly respected for his character and skills.  And by the time I moved to Pontiac, there were plenty of blue-collar workers in the AA membership along with the professional people.
 
I spent many years in Jackson, Mich., and Toledo, Ohio, and saw Chauncey only a few times until early in this century.  But I always heard about the great work he was doing, still in the greater Pontiac area.
 
Then a man from New York wanted to interview Chauncey, so I made the arrangements and we called on him in a Pontiac hospital.
 
Some time later, I saw Chauncey for the last time. Amazingly, it was at an AA meeting in the All Saints Episcopal Church, the place where I had first met him in 1950.  He was in a wheelchair, but still mentally alert and interested in the meeting.
 
Chauncey and his wife Vivian were married at age 15.  They had a long and loving marriage marred by some difficulties.  Their daughter, for example, was murdered by her husband.  But they had other children and grandchildren who were close to them in their old age.
 
I hope you will circulate this account to others.  Thank you very much.

Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio
<melb@accesstoledo.com>
(melb at accesstoledo.com)
| 6252|6232|2010-01-19 20:35:48|Ernest Kurtz|Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken?|
Stevec012000,

Abstaining from the other claims in this message, let me at least
approach your query. Please remember that I am now retired, all my N-
G notes given to Brown University and a few other small archives, so I
have to tackle this one from fairly vivid but still aging memory.

In the long recording that Bill did to help Robert Thomsen in his
research, Bill mentions after his long conversation with Dowling, he
�felt for the first time completely cleansed and freed.� At the time
of my research, I discussed this with several of the then-surviving
old-timers, and they agreed that given the time and circumstances --
remember, the 12 Steps had not yet been formulated and all they had to
go on was Oxford Group practice -- this �must have been Bill's first
'Fifth Step.'� �That is one of the things you should get from a real
Fifth Step.�

Over time and listening to more of Bill and reading more of his
correspondence about the Steps and Father Dowling, I came to agree
with the historical certainty of that understanding.

Hope this helps.

ernie

- - - -

> >From "stevec012000"
> <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
> (steven.calderbank at verizon.net)
>
> Page 98 in Not God claims that Bill finally
> took his fifth when he met Father Dowling.
> That was several years after his meeting with
> Ebby. I am sure Dr. Kurtz can elaborate on
> that more if he cares. Unless I am reading
> this wrong.
| 6253|6155|2010-01-19 20:40:49|John Barton|Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James|
The Moderator opined in a previous post:
 
"To put it crudely, for Lois and Bill (at least when Bill was sober), you did not gain salvation by getting down on your knees and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (there is nothing in the first 164 pages of the Big Book about that) -- you gained salvation via visions of White Light, experiences of the Transcendentalist Over-Soul in the wonders of the starry heavens overhead, and Swedenborgian conversations with angels who were simply the spirits of human beings who had once lived upon this earth."

Bill wrote in The AA Way of Life (As  Bill Sees It) No. 114:
 
"NO PERSONAL POWER"

"At first, the remedy for my personal difficulties seemed so obvious that I could not imagine any alcoholic turning the proposition down were it properly presented to him. Believing so firmly that Christ can do anything, I had the unconscious conceit to suppose that He would do everything through me -- right then and in the manner I chose. After six long months, I had to admit that not a soul had surely laid hold of the Master -- not excepting myself.

"This brought me to the good healthy realization that there were plenty of situations left in the world over which I had no personal power -- that if I was so ready to admit that to be the case with alcohol, so I must make the same admission with respect to much else. I would have to be still and know that He, not I, was God."

LETTER, 1940 -
 
God Bless
| 6254|6214|2010-01-19 20:43:27|James Blair|Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings?|
Al wrote
." I've never seen an official AA stance on this and from what I
> know about traditions and concepts that probably wouldn't happen since
> leadership comes from the Group Up to GSO and not the other way around.

The pamphlet "The AA Group" contains all sorts of recommendations for sober
time for various positions as a trusted servant. Obviously these are based
on experienmce but as always each group has the right to be wrong.

Jim
| 6255|6255|2010-01-20 09:27:53|firituallyspit|Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings?|
I heard a person share in a meeting that all
early meetings were "Speaker" meetings. I am
not so sure that is accurate. Does anybody have
the low down on these early meeting formats?
| 6256|6256|2010-01-20 09:29:16|Chuck Parkhurst|Henry (Hank) P.|
Members

I am looking for a confirmation with source
reference, for the date of death for Henry
"Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
year 1954.

Many Thanks

In Service with Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst
| 6257|6257|2010-01-21 11:22:13|R. Peter Nixon, MBA|Bob E. (AA #11)|
Bob Evans (AA #11) came to the fellowship in
February 1937.  Does anyone know his birthdate,
birthplace, sobriety date, place and date of
death?
| 6258|6256|2010-01-21 11:22:17|jax760|Re: Henry (Hank) P.|
Hi Chuck,

The information you require can by found in the
New Jersey Herald, January 27, 1954. Although
I do not have a copy I believe it lists the date
as January 18th.

Regards


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst" wrote:
>
> Members
>
> I am looking for a confirmation with source
> reference, for the date of death for Henry
> "Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
> reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
> year 1954.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> In Service with Gratitude,
>
> Chuck Parkhurst
>
| 6259|6256|2010-01-21 11:28:04|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Henry (Hank) P.|
During his all too short period of sobriety.

He died after a long illness at Glenwood
Sanitarium in Trenton, New Jersey, on January
18, 1954, at the age of fifty-seven. Lois Wilson
ascribed his death to drinking.

Funeral services were held Thursday, January 22
at Blackwell Memorial Home. Rev. A. Kenneth
Magner of the First Presbyterian Church performed
the service.

At the time of his death he and his wife,
Kathleen Nixon Parkhurst (whom he had remarried
after two failed marriages) were living at
Washington-Crossing Road, Pennington, New
Jersey.

One son, Henry G. Parkhurst, Jr., was living
in Madeira Beach, Florida. A second son Robert
S. Parkhurst, was living in Pennington.

Special thanks to Ron R., of Kentucky, for
information concerning Hank's death and burial.

Above written by Nancy O.

- - - -

In a message dated 1/20/2010 12:29:21 P.M.
Eastern Standard Time, ineedpage63@cox.net writes:

I am looking for a confirmation with source
reference, for the date of death for Henry
"Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
year 1954.

Many Thanks

In Service with Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst
| 6260|6232|2010-01-22 14:20:49|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken?|
As Ernie points out, Bill W felt he took the fifth step in 1940 or so time period. Now I do not know when one is to take the fifth step, or if one should take the fifth step, that is up to the individual. But below is some of Bill W's address to the Catholic Clergy Council. He places the date as 1938 as when the steps were written.

Bill W.'s talk to the Catholic Clergy Council:

[Bill W. is saying here that WE ALCOHOLICS BROKE WITH THE OXFORD GROUP BECAUSE WE DID NOT WANT TO BECOME A PROTESTANT EVANGELICAL SECT which was trying to "save" the whole world by preaching the evangelical gospel message that the atoning blood of the divine God-man Christ which he shed on the cross was the ONLY thing that would save our souls or give us eternal life. G.C.]

Before leaving the subject of the Oxford Groups, perhaps I should specifically outline why we felt it necessary to part company with them. To begin with, the climate of their undertaking was not well suited to us alcoholics. They were aggressively evangelical, they sought to re-vitalize the Christian message in such a way as to "change the world."

Most of us alcoholics had been subjected to pressure of evangelism and we had never liked it. The object of saving the world -- when it was still much in doubt if we could save ourselves -- seemed better left to other people.

[Bill W. is saying here that WE HAD TO BREAK WITH THE OXFORD GROUP'S ATTEMPT TO MAKE US CARRY OUT OUR MORAL INVENTORY SO QUICKLY -- you could not analyze and remake an alcoholic's moral character in just a few days or a few weeks -- but it took us early AA people a while to realize this. G.C.]

By reason of some of its terminology and by the exertion of huge pressure, the Oxford Group set a moral stride that was too fast, particularly for our newer alcoholics. They constantly talked of Absolute Purity, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Honesty, and Absolute Love. While sound theology must always have its absolute values, the Oxford Groups created the feeling that one should arrive at these destinations in short order, maybe by next Thursday!

Perhaps they didn't mean to create such an impression but that was the effect.

Sometimes their public "witnessing" was of such a character as to cause us to be shy. They also believe that by "converting" prominent people to their beliefs, they would hasten the salvation of the many who were less prominent.

This attitude could scarcely appeal to the average drunk since he was anything but distinguished.

The Oxford Group also had attitudes and practices which added up to a highly coercive authority. This was exercised by "team" of older members. They would gather in meditation and receive specific guidance for the life conduct of newcomers. This guidance could cover all possible situations from the most trivial to the most serious.

If the directions so obtained were not followed the enforcement machinery began to operate. It consisted of a sort of coldness and aloofness which made recalcitrants feel they weren't wanted.

At one time, for example, a team got guidance for me to the effect that I was no longer to work with alcoholics. This I couldn't accept.

Another example: When I first contacted the Oxford Groups, Catholics were permitted to attend their meetings because they were strictly non-denominational.

[Bill W. WARNS HERE THAT IF YOU LINK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS WITH ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP, the next thing you know, AA MEMBERS WILL START BEING REQUIRED TO GIVE MONEY TO THAT RELIGIOUS SECT, and leave the religious group that they were brought up in. G.C.]

But after a time the Catholic Church forbade its members to attend and the reason for this seemed a good one. Through the Oxford Group teams Catholic Church members were actually receiving very specific guidance for their lives; they were often infused with the idea that their own Church had become rather horse-and-buggy, and needed to be changed. Guidance was frequently given that contributions should be made to the Oxford Groups. In a way this amounted to putting Catholics under a separate ecclesiastical jurisdiction.

At this time there were few Catholics in our own alcoholic groups. Obviously we could not approach any more Catholics under Oxford Group auspices. Therefore this was another and the basic reason for the withdrawal of our alcoholic crowd from the Oxford Groups notwithstanding our great indebtedness to them.

Writing Down The Twelve Steps

Perhaps you would be interested in a further account of the writing down of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

In the spring of 1938 we had commenced to prepare a book showing the methods of our then nameless fellowship. We thought there should be a text for this which could be supported by stories, or case histories, written by some of our recovered people.

The work proceeded very slowly until some four chapters were done. The content of these chapters had been the subject of endless discussion and even hot argument.

The preliminary chapters consisted of my own story, a rationalization of AA for the benefit of the agnostic, plus descriptions of the alcoholic illness. Even over this much material the haggling had been so great that I had begun to feel much more like an umpire than an author.

Arrived then at what is now Chapter Five, it was realized that a specific program for recovery had to be laid down as a basis for any further progress. By then I felt pretty frazzled and discouraged.

One night, in a bad mood I must confess, I lay in bed at home considering our next move. After a time, the idea hit me that we might take our "word of mouth" program, the one I have already described, and amplify it into several more steps.

This would make our program perfectly explicit. The necessary ground could be covered so thoroughly that no rationalizing alcoholic could misunderstand or wiggle away by that familiar process. We might also be able to hit readers at a distance, people to whom we could offer no personal help at the moment. Therefore a more thorough job of codification had to be done. With only this in mind I began to sketch the new steps on a yellow pad. To my astonishment they seemed to come very easily, and with incredible rapidity.

Perhaps the writing required no more than twenty or thirty minutes. Seemingly I had to think little at all. It was only when I came to the end of the writing that I re-read and counted them. Curiously enough, they numbered twelve and required almost no editing. They looked surprisingly good -- at least to me. Of course I felt vastly encouraged.

In the course of this writing, I had considerably changed the order of the presentation. In our word-of-mouth program, we had reversed mention of God to the very end. For some reason, unknown to me, I had transposed this to almost the very beginning.

In my original draft of the Twelve Steps, God was mentioned several times and only as God. It never occurred to me to qualify this to "God as we understand Him" as we did later on. Otherwise the Twelve Steps stand today almost exactly as they were first written.

When these Steps were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent there were loud cries of too much God.

Others objected to an expression which I had included which suggested getting on one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement about a suitable prayerful posture and I finally went along with that now tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him" -- this expression having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members.

This was indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA who would have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one's religion the business of the A.A. member himself and not that of his society.

[WHEN BILL W. DID HIS FIFTH STEP, HE DID IT WITH FATHER ED DOWLING, A JESUIT PRIEST, WHO THEREFORE INTERPRETED IT IN TERMS OF THE IGNATIAN EXERCISES -- what this means is, that Bill W. had by this point totally grown away from the Oxford Group's idea that we had to do our confession, restitution, and so on -- AND start practicing moral virtues with almost absolute perfection -- within a few days or weeks! Bill W. was now understanding moral growth in the way that Father Ed Dowling and the Ignatian exercises did, as a life-long process in which it took years to ferret out all of the moral failings hidden down in our characters. Jesuit priests regularly go off on retreats, once a year sometimes, to go through the Ignatian exercises once again. G.C.]

That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that members of the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity between them and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our great wonder and gratitude indeed.
| 6261|6255|2010-01-22 14:48:42|stevec012000|Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings?|
The Big Book mentions on pages 159-160:

[Bill W. and Dr. Bob had gotten Bill Dotson
sober in June 1935. AA in Akron grew slowly
but steadily during the months that followed.]

"A year and six months later these three had suc-
ceeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other,
scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not
shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in
their release, and constantly thinking how they might
present their discovery to some newcomer. In addi-
tion to these casual get-togethers, it became customary
to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be at-
tended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual
way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability,
the prime object was to provide a time and place
where new people might bring their problems."

"Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife
placed their large home at the disposal of this
strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since be-
come so fascinated that they have dedicated their
home to the word. Many a distracted wife has visited
this house to find loving and understanding compan-
ionship among women who knew her problem, to
hear from the lips of their husbands what had hap-
pened to them, to be advised how her own wayward
mate might be hospitalized and approached when
next he stumbled."
| 6262|6255|2010-01-22 14:51:05|bent_christensen5|Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings?|
Good question. It has been discussed before,
and you'll be able to find one good answer
among many in message #5300.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5300

How early AA meetings were held in Akron and Cleveland

Shortly before his death in 1984, Bob E.

[This was Robert Evans, see list of First 226 Members
http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc ]

shared ... the following recollection of what
AA was like when he first joined:

<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

I never led meetings (neither did Dr. Bob) or
talked into a microphone. Nobody led our
meetings in the very early days. We all just
sat around in a circle. After the opening
prayer and a short text from the Bible, we had
quiet time, silently praying for guidance
about what to say. Then each person in turn
said something, asking for any help he wanted,
bringing up anything that was troubling him or
just whatever was on his mind. After everyone
was through, there were announcements and we
held hands and said the Lord's Prayer ....

For the first five years we met in someone's
home every night ....

In that first group, Dr. Bob selected the readings
and made all the appointments and all the major
decisions. (I was the first secretary of the
group and the following year became chairman.)
Everyone had to make a complete surrender to
join in the first place, and so we had no
reservations; we worked the whole program,
100 percent ....

We did not tell our drinking histories at
the meetings back then. We did not need to.
A man's sponsor and Dr. Bob knew the details.
Frankly, we did not think it was anybody
else's business. We were anonymous and so was
our life. Besides, we already knew how to
drink. What we wanted to learn was how to get
sober and stay sober.

Bill Wilson was in favor of having at least
fifty percent of an AA member's talk at a
meeting consist of "qualifying" or telling the
story of how he became an alcoholic. Bill
himself had a warm, friendly disposition, and
this idea of his did attract people and enable
the movement to grow to a size where it had
helped thousands of people all over the world.
For that we must be grateful.

But when the "qualifying" business first
began, it took some getting used to on our
part. I remember one time when we were
meeting at King School; some people came in
from Cleveland, and most of the qualifying
they did was really very bad. They clapped and
made a lot of noise. To us it seemed strange
and offensive. Gradually we opened up under
Bill's persuasive influence. But we still did
not care for it when people would get carried
away by their own voice and make their stories
too sensational and repulsive.
| 6263|6255|2010-01-22 14:58:45|James Blair|Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings?|
From James Blair, Beverly, and Ben Humphreys

- - - -

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

I can only speak for Quebec.

All AA meetings up to the early sixties were
closed meetings but we did have open meetings
which were in fact public meetings.

These meeting were organized with social
services, medicine, courts and AA. They were
held in a large hall on the first Sunday night
of each month and they would draw from 75 to
300 persons. They were well advertised on
radio and in newspapers.

Representatives of different agencies would
speak about the impact of alcoholism on families
and individuals. The AA speaker would go last.

It was at these meeting that the practice of
stating "my name is Joe B. and I'm an alcoholic"
got started in our province. At the closed
meetings people did not do that.

Jim

- - - -

From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)

I go to a meeting in Tucson, Arizona.

Matt l. has 58 years of sobriety. He was one
of the fortunate to be helped by Dr. Silkworth
for his alcoholism. He told his story at
Founders Day here and stated that all of the
first meetings were speaker meetings. He also
said that men back then wore suits, shirts and
ties. He still dresses up to this day.

Beverly

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

From 1975 on my experience has been the same as
now. Not all speaker meetings.

I am like you, in talking to old timers from
1940 on they were not all speaker meetings but
open and closed meetings and speaker meetings
were on the agenda.

Ben H.
| 6264|6155|2010-01-22 15:05:41|Hugh D. Hyatt|Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family's religious beliefs|
It said in Message #6199 from LD Pierce
<eztone@hotmail.com> (eztone at hotmail.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6199

"In reading this post and a couple of others
I decided to do some reading tonite on the
Swedenborgian religion and their movment ....

Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!!"

- - - -

Swedenborg's theological writings include a single occurrence of the
phrase "twelve steps:"

> They [angels with whom Swedenborg spoke] picture wisdom, they said,
> as a wonderfully elegant palace with twelve steps leading up to it.
> No one gets to the first step except with the Lord's help and by
> union with him, and for all of us, the ascent depends on that union.
> The higher we climb, the more clearly we realize that no one is wise
> on her or his own, but only from the Lord. We also realize that
> relative to what we do not know, what we do know is like a droplet
> compared to a vast lake. The twelve steps to the palace of wisdom
> mean whatever is good united to what is true and whatever is true
> united to what is good.

This is from his book /Divine Providence/, paragraph #36.

As a lifelong Swedenborgian and recovering alcoholic myself, I would say
that the closest thing that Swedenborg has to A.A.'s twelve steps are
the four steps of repentance described in paragraph #530 of his work
/True Christian Religion./ After explaining the necessity of
repentance, Swedenborg says:

> The question therefore is, How ought man to repent? And
> the reply is, Actually; that is to say, he must examine himself,
> recognize and acknowledge his sins, pray to the Lord, and begin a
> new life.

A number of years ago, I corresponded with a Swedenborgian minister who
had interviewed Lois Wilson. He asked specifically about the influence
of Swedenborgianism on A.A. and Al-Anon. As I recall, her response was
completely non-committal, saying that even if some particular religion
/had/ had significant influence, she couldn't very well say so, could she?

--
Hugh H.
Willow Grove, PA

The love of one's country is a splendid thing.
But why should love stop at the border.
-- Pablo Casals
| 6265|6257|2010-01-22 15:21:28|J. Lobdell|Re: Bob E. (AA #11)|
He was born in Akron June 19 1904 and died there
in February 1977.

The Silkworth site gives the following material
and references on him:

"Bob E. - wealthy banker, joined A.A. February
1937, made AA address books, member Akron's
wealthiest families [C 132] [D 101, 116-19,
122-23, 142, 146, 152, 156-57, 176, 217, 221-23]
[N 53]"

I haven't checked the references.

The list of sober members provided for Frank
Amos shows him with 16 months sobriety at a
time when Dr. Bob had 33 and Bill D. had 32,
thus in March 1938. This would put Bob E's
sobriety to November 1936, before he "came in"
in February 1937.

His father William H. E. was President of the
Bank.

- - - -

From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana):

The list of the First 226 Members of the
Akron, Ohio AA Group
http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc

has Robert E. with an X by his name,
which seems to mean that he was counted
as one of the first 27 members.

His address is given as 657 East Ave., Akron,
Ohio. In those days in Akron, would that have
been a fancy address, the sort of place a
wealthy banker would live? That would be one
way of checking to see whether that claim
was true.
| 6266|6266|2010-01-22 15:50:28|James Bliss|The Big Book in the rain barrel|
I was reminded of a story which I have heard
in AA about someone in Alaska who found a
Big Book in the bottom of a rain barrel and
got sober reading it.

Is there any historical fact behind this story?

Thanks,

Jim
| 6267|6256|2010-01-22 15:54:22|Jay Pees|Re: Henry (Hank) P.|
And his funeral is listed as January 22.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:52 PM, jax760
<jax760@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Chuck,
>
> The information you require can by found in the
> New Jersey Herald, January 27, 1954. Although
> I do not have a copy I believe it lists the date
> as January 18th.
>
> Regards
>
>
> "Chuck Parkhurst" wrote:
> >
> > I am looking for a confirmation with source
> > reference, for the date of death for Henry
> > "Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
> > reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
> > year 1954.
| 6268|6266|2010-01-23 14:51:27|Edward|Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel|
This story is quoted in _As Bill Sees It_ p. 245
- the reference given is to _AA Comes Of Age_
pp. 82-83 ...

Y'all's in service
Ted G.

- - - -

Also from From: Jay Pees <racewayjay@gmail.com>

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss
wrote:
>
> I was reminded of a story which I have heard
> in AA about someone in Alaska who found a
> Big Book in the bottom of a rain barrel and
> got sober reading it.
>
> Is there any historical fact behind this story?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
| 6269|6232|2010-01-23 14:53:23|Bill Lash|Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken?|
Maybe I'm missing something here but please indulge me a few more thought
about this. I feel this is an important point for all of us so I just want
to make clear what I see being said here so that there is no
misunderstanding. What it says on page 98 & 99 of Ernie's wonderful book
"Not God" is as follows:

"Not since his earliest days in the Oxford Group had Wilson felt himself in
the loving presence of such a receptive listener. Then, Bill had unburdened
himself especially to Ebby. But it was only now, as this evening with
Father Dowling wore on, that the man who had written A.A.'s Fifth Step came
to feel that he himself was finally "taking his Fifth." He told Dowling not
only what he had done and had left undone - he went on to share with his new
sponsor the thoughts and feelings behind those actions and omissions."

And then in "Bill's Story" in the Big Book on page 13 Bill writes:

"At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment
seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens.
"There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do
with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and
direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that
without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to
have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch. I have not had a
drink since.
"My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and
deficiencies."

Ernie is stating above in his own book that Bill did his FIRST 5th Step when
he first got sober ("Not since his earliest days in the Oxford Group...Bill
had unburdened himself especially to Ebby" & then in the Big Book while Bill
was still in Towns Hospital "I fully acquainted him with my problems and
deficiencies", both of these descriptions are of the Oxford Group's version
of a 5th Step), and then Bill did ANOTHER 5th Step with Fr. Dowling. The
only way you can say that Bill's sharing with Fr. Dowling was Bill's "first"
5th Step was because when Bill shared with Ebby when he got sober in 1938
there were no 12 Steps yet, so in 1938 they wouldn't have called it a 5th
Step. Nevertheless, using today's AA language, Bill DID do his FIRST 5th
Step when he first got sober, NOT only after finally meeting Fr. Dowling.

Also, Ernie mentions below about Bill's sharing his 5th Step with Fr.
Dowling that:

"Bill felt for the first time completely cleansed and freed".

Bill ALSO describes in the Big Book how he felt from his original 5th Step
with Ebby (along with the other Oxford Group work that he did, which later
became the 12 Steps) that:

"...the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by such
a peace and serenity as I had never known. There was utter confidence. I
felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew
through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me
was sudden and profound."

Both 5th Steps had a large effect on Bill. After the one he did with Ebby,
Bill never drank again!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill
| 6270|6255|2010-01-23 15:00:54|Edward|Re: Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings|
There is a recording of Paul K., an early member
who attended meetings with Dr. Bob at King School,
sharing about this experience many years later
from the podium -- it is available for free at:

http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1850

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.
| 6271|6255|2010-01-23 15:16:42|J. Lobdell|Re: Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11)|
The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does not agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their article are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was begun March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the Record of Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would still have been the longest-sober member of A.A.

But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb 1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member, which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.

Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date in the AAA publication.

- - - -

Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262
"Re: Early meeting format"):

"SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,
Bob E. shared ... the following recollection
of what AA was like when he first joined"

IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:
<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"

AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"
| 6272|6272|2010-01-24 12:05:07|Bill Lash|Bill W. Died Today (Jan. 24) in 1971|
In the summer 1966 two A.A. members from the White Plains NY area drove to
Stepping Stones & had an appointment with Bill W. One of these members,
John S., went in & talked with Bill W. for about a half hour while the
other memebr, Bob C., waited outside. Bob C. was a sponsee of John S., John
S. was a reporter for the New York Times & Bill W. had asked him to come.
What Bill wanted was to write his own obituary because he knew that if
someone else tried to do it they may not get it right. This all happened
five years BEFORE Bill finally died on this date (January 24) in 1971. Also
at that time in 1966, Bill W. gave John permission to break Bill's anonymity
in the article that John put out at the time of Bill's death. Bill also
asked John not to say anything about the pre-written obituary until Bill
died. That is why the original New York Times obituary (below) had no
reporter's name, because John S. really didn't write it, Bill did. All that
John added to the article was the particulars around Bill's death. The
story about Bill's obituary has been left unknown until a few years ago when
Jack H. from Scottsdale AZ had a conversation with Bob C., who was living in
Mesa AZ at the time & who just recently passed away at age 82 with over 50
years sober. This same Bob C. was the man who waited outside for John S. &
Bill W. when the original obituary was written in 1966.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill


Bill W., 75, Dies; Co-founder Of Alcoholics Anonymous
Jan. 27, 1971 - New York Times News Service

NEW YORK — William Griffith Wilson died late Sunday night and, with the
announcement of his death, was revealed to have been the Bill W. who
cofounded Alcoholics Anonymous in l935. He was 75.

The retired Wall Street securities analyst had expected to die or to go
insane as a hopeless drunk 36 years ago but – after what he called a
dramatic spiritual experience – sobered up and stayed sober.

He leaves a program of recovery as a legacy to 47,000 acknowledged
alcoholics in 15,000 A.A. groups throughout the United States and in 18
other countries.

Wife Aided Work

Mr. Wilson, whose twangy voice and economy of words reflected his New
England origin, died of pneumonia and cardiac complication a few hours after
he had been flown by private plane to the Miami Heart Institute in Miami
Beach from his home in Bedford Hills, NY.

At his bedside was his wife, Lois, who had remained by him during his years
as a “falling down” drunk and who later had worked at his side to aid other
alcoholics. She is a founder of the Al-Anon and Alateen groups, which deal
with the fears and insecurity suffered by spouses and children of problem
drinkers.

Mr. Wilson last spoke publicly last July 5 in a three minute talk he
delivered after struggling from a wheelchair to the lectern at the closing
session of A.A.'s 35th anniversary international convention in Miami,
attended by 11,000 persons. He had been admitted three days earlier to the
Miami Heart Institute, his emphysema complicated by pneumonia.

Last Oct. 10, he was under hospital care for acute emphysema and was unable
for the first time to attend the A.A. banquet at which his “last-drink
anniversary” has been celebrated annually. His greetings were delivered by
his wife to the 2,200 A.A. members and guests at the New York Hilton.

Mr. Wilson gave permission to break his A.A. anonymity upon his death in a
signed statement in 1966. The role of Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith as the other
founder of the worldwide fellowship was disclosed publicly when the Akron
Ohio, surgeon died of cancer in 1950.

As Bill W., Mr. Wilson shared what be termed his “experience, strength and
hope” in hundreds of talks and writings, but in turn – mindful that he
himself was “just another guy named Bill who can’t handle booze” – he heeded
the counsel of fellow alcoholics, and declined a salary for his work in
behalf of the fellowship.

He supported himself, and later his wife, on royalties from four A.A.
books — “Alcoholics Anonymous,” “The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,”
“Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age” and “The A.A. Way of Life.”

Explained Anonymity

In fathering the doctrine that members should not reveal their A.A.
affiliation at the public level, Bill W. had explained that “anonymity isn’t
just something to save us from alcoholic shame and stigma; its deeper
purpose is to keep those fool egos of ours from running hog wild after money
and fame at A.A,’s expense.”

He cited the example of a nationally known radio personality who wrote an
autobiography. disclosing his A.A membership and then spent the royalties
crawling the pubs on West 52nd Street.”

Frankness Impressed

In the program’s early years, Mrs. Wilson worked in a department store to
augment the family income.

Over the years, the gaunt, 6-foot cofounder’s wavy brown hair turned wispy
white, and his step slowed. In 1962 he retired from active administration of
A.A. affairs and returned to part-time activity in Wall Street. He continued
to speak in New York at dinner meeting celebrating the anniversaries of his
recovery.

Mr. Wilson shunned oratory and euphemisms and impressed listeners with the
simplicity and frankness of his A.A. “story”:

In his native East Dorset, VT., where he was born Nov. 26,1895, and where be
attended a two-room elementary school, he recalled, “I was tall and gawky
and I felt pretty bad about it because the smarter kids could push me
around. I remember being very depressed for a year or more, then I developed
a fierce resolve to win – to be a No. 1 man.”

Strength Limited

Bill, whose physical strength and coordination were limited, was goaded by a
deep sense of inferiority, yet became captain of his high school baseball
team. He learned to play the violin well enough to lead the school
orchestra.

He majored in engineering at Norwich University for three years, then
enrolled in officers training school when the United States entered World
War I. He married Lois Burnham, a Brooklyn physician’s daughter he had met
on vacation in Manchester, Vt.

At Army camp In New Bedford, Mass,, 2nd Lt. Wilson of the 66th Coast
Artillery and fellow officers were entertained by patriotic hostesses, and
Bill W. was handed his first drink, a Bronx cocktail. Gone, soon, was his
sense of inferiority.

Wife Concerned

“In those Roaring Twenties,” he remembered, “I was drinking to dream great
dreams of greater power.” His wife became increasingly concerned, but he
assured her that “men of genius conceive their best projects when drunk.”

In the crash of 1929, Mr. Wilson’s funds melted away, but his
self-confidence failed to drop. “When men were leaping to their deaths from
the towers of high finance,” he noted, “I was disgusted and refused to jump.
I went back to the bar. I said, and I believed, ‘that I can build this up
once more.’ But I didn’t. My alcoholic obsession had already condemned me. I
became a hanger-on in Wall Street.”

Numbing doses of bathtub gin, bootleg whisky and New Jersey applejack became
Bill W.’s panacea for all his problems.

Visited by Companion

Late in 1934, he was visited by an old barroom companion, Ebby T., who
disclosed that he had attained freedom from a drinking compulsion with help
from the First Century Christian Fellowship (now Moral Rearmament); a
movement founded in England by the late Dr. Frank N. D. Buchman and often
called the Oxford Group. Bill W. was deeply impressed and was desperate, but
he said he had not yet reached that level of degradation below which he was
unwilling to descend. He felt he had one more prolonged drunk left in him.

Sick, depressed and clutching a bottle of beer, Bill W. staggered a month
later into Towns Hospital, an upper Manhattan institution for treatment of
alcoholism and drug addiction. Dr William Duncan Silkworth, his friend, put
him to bed.

Mr. Wilson recalled then what. Ebby T. had told him: “You admit you are
licked; you get honest with yourself… you pray to whatever God you think
there is, even as an experiment.” Bill W. found himself crying out:

“If there is a God, let him show himself, I am ready to do anything,
anything!”

“Suddenly,” he related. “the room lit up with a great white light. I was
caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed
that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me
that I was a free man.”

Recovering slowly and fired with enthusiasm, Mr. Wilson envisioned a chain
reaction among drunks, one carrying the message of recovery to the next.
Emphasizing at first his spiritual regeneration, and working closely with
Oxford Groupers, he struggled for months to “sober up the world,” but got
almost nowhere.

“Look Bill,” Dr. Silkworth cautioned, “you are preaching at those alkies.
You are talking about the Oxford precepts of absolute honesty, purity,
unselfishness and love. Give them the medical business, and give it to ‘em
hard, about the obsession that condemns them to drink. That – coming from
one alcoholic to another – may crack those tough egos deep down.”

Mr. Wilson thereafter concentrated on the basic philosophy that alcoholism
is a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession – an incurable though
arrestable – illness of body., mind and spirit. Much later, the disease
concept of alcoholism was accepted by a committee of the American Medical
Association and by the World Health Organization.

Still dry six months after emerging from the hospital, Mr. Wilson went to
Akron to participate in a stock proxy fight. He lost, and was about to lose
another bout as he paced outside a bar in the lobby of the Mayflower Hotel.
Panicky, he groped for inner strength and remembered that. he had thus far
stayed sober trying to help other alcoholics.

Through Oxford Group channels that night, he gained an introduction to Dr.
Smith, a surgeon and fellow Vermonter who had vainly sought medical cures
and religious help for his compulsive drinking.

Bill W. discussed with the doctor his former drinking pattern and his
eventual release from compulsion.

“Bill was the first living human with whom I had ever talked who
intelligently discussed my problem from actual experience,” Dr. Bob, as he
became known, said later. “He talked my language.”
| 6273|6273|2010-01-24 12:47:21|Frank Nyikos|AA book study group in Milford|
The Milford Study Meeting held on Thursday nights in Milford, Indiana has been going on continuously now for over four and a half years (we were hoping for 6 months at best in the beginning).

We are currently on our seventh book and as you can see below time is not the element:

**Little Red Book - 8/11/05 - 6/29/06 (we had copies of the current edition, but also copies of the original 1946 edition and the 1949 edition, the last one where Dr. Bob had any input)
**Changed By Grace - 7/6/06 - 3/2/07
**Emmet Fox, Sermon on the Mount - 3/29/07 - 11/15/09
**Ernie Kurtz, Shame & Guilt - 11/29/07 1/17/08
**Father Ralph Pfau, Sobriety & Beyond - 1/24/08 - 9/4/08
**God & Spirituality - 9/11/08 - 10/22/09
**William James, Varieties of Religious Experience - 10/29/09 - present

People have been driving from an hour away or more, even through the snow and ice of a northern Indiana winter. We do not call it an AA group or meeting (since others are invited) nor is it formally registered with General Service Office so that the question of what books we can or cannot read becomes a dead letter. However, we DO send contributions regularly to GSO as the Milford, Indiana Study Meeting. This has been acceptable since contributions come from AA people.

When AA newcomers show up we do suggest that they go to a regular AA meeting which goes over the basics but still encourage them to attend here for extra information if they are so inclined.

Most of us have around twenty or more years in the program. None of the people who have continued to attend regularly have 'slipped,' reverted to drinking again, or diminished in the least their dedications, attendance, and continuing work in AA. Although we have had a few newcomers who showed up for a few weeks and then disappeared we have no idea how AA itself affected them or if they did stop drinking since we had no further contact, leaving us unknowing what if any effect may have happened. As mentioned before, those who continue to attend are still deeply involved in sponsorship, conference planning, committees and other activities of the sort over the years. We do NOT see this study group as a substitute for participation in the regular AA fellowship, but merely as a SUPPLEMENT. We also abide by group conscience in all matters.

At the beginning, back in 2005, every member of our group gave suggestions about books that might be worthwhile reading. So now, when we approach the end of one book, we look at that list and just take a group conscience on which one to read next. We read through these books sentence by sentence and then discuss each part as much as we feel is necessary, stopping wherever and then continuing where we left off so we don't just speed through them.

If you are not sure what would be a good list of books to consider, another place where you could find one, would be Charlie Bishop's list of Fifty Books Tracing AA's History at http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

I am posting this because I recently learned from John S. in Fort Wayne, Indiana, who comes to Milford every week, that our idea here at Milford seems to be spreading to other places.

John writes the "John Barleycorn" A.A. column -- good stuff -- for a couple of examples see "The Right Side of the Page" http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html and "Whack-A-Mole" http://hindsfoot.org/barmole.html

Anyway, John told me the other day:
______________________________

"One of the men I sponsor named Tommy R. told others in his home group about Milford and they decided to start a similar group north of the Fort. My son John and some of his friends in Wisconsin are talking about starting a book study group there too. There's so much knowledge and wisdom recorded in books since the printing press was created and it's a real shame that most of it is going undigested because of modern electronic media. Perhaps I'm resistant to change, but it seems to me the more television and electronic games that are played, the dumber our civilization is getting? I cannot change such a trend but nevertheless choose to keep on reading."
______________________________

Perhaps there are other parts of the world where AA people might be interested in trying something like this.

If so, there are many other items that have come up which we have solved successfully and we would be happy to share should anyone have questions. You can contact at the following email address: fenyikos@hoosierlink.net
| 6274|6255|2010-01-24 12:57:30|mdingle76|Re: Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11)|
I like to speak for the "All Addicts Anonymous" people for I work for 24 Communications — the publishing group of AAA — which originally put out 24 Magazine. The article that J. Lobell refers to was written for 24 Magazine in September 1976 (6 months before the book "Dr. Bob and the Good oldtimers" was on the launching pad.) Yes, J. Lobell is right — the interview that we recorded of Bob E. (used in the Sept 1976, 24 Magazine) was later used in the "Dr. Bob" book. (It is believed that we still have the tape recording of this interview and that there was much more said by Bob E. not used in the article — although, I haven't bumped into the tape in our archives yet.)

The Sept 1976 article said: "Bob E. is the senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship. He still lives today in Akron, Ohio, as he did when he came into the Akron group — the first Alcoholics Anonymous group — back in 1936. Not long ago he shared with us the following recollections of what AA was like in the days when he came in . . . "

Now, in 1990, 24 Communications tried to publish several 12 step books through Harper (one was called "Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps," another one was "Dr. Bob and the 12 Steps," etc., etc.) Well, the "Dr. Bob and the 12 steps" book had featured the Bob E. article with a few minor changes — on of them being the death date of Bob E. as 1984. It said: "Bob E., until his death in 1984, was the senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship. . ."

Does anybody else have any ideas or information about this?

Matt D.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does not agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their article are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was begun March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the Record of Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would still have been the longest-sober member of A.A.
>
> But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb 1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member, which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.
>
> Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date in the AAA publication.
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262
> "Re: Early meeting format"):
>
> "SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,
> Bob E. shared ... the following recollection
> of what AA was like when he first joined"
>
> IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:
> <http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>
>
> SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"
>
> AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"
>
| 6275|6255|2010-01-24 13:00:11|Shakey1aa@aol.com|Re: Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings|
This is a really good tape. The 1st hand
experience of early Akron (Dr Bob) AA from this
man who had 46 years when the tape was recorded
in 1988.

The meeting was a family meeting since the
disease was a family disease and never closed
at any set time. There was no prayer at the end
of the meeting with members holding hands and
saying a prayer,rather they all went into
silent prayer and meditation individually.

He explains working the steps and sponsorship
as it was originally done. His explanation of
the history of AA is as he remembers it.

Great praise for Dr Bob,and Anne.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA

- - - -

In a message dated 1/23/2010 elg3_79@yahoo.com
writes:

There is a recording of Paul K., an early member
who attended meetings with Dr. Bob at King School,
sharing about this experience many years later
from the podium -- it is available for free at:

http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1850

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.
| 6276|6276|2010-01-25 14:14:18|Harriet Dodd|Having employers read the chapter To Employers|
Dear History Lovers

Would you please be able to give me some
information on the chapter "To Employers."

I would like to know, was it a procedure to
take the Big Book into the work place, and ask
employers to read the book (or that particular
chapter)?

Did they recommend that employers use the Big
Book, or how was it known about?

I couldnt find anything specific on the group
blogs.

Thanks very much,

Harriet

- - - -

From the moderator: Harriet is asking if we
have any stories of AA people taking copies
of the Big Book to employers during the early
days, to ask if they had any alcoholic
employees they could work with, or whatever.
It seems like I may have heard of that, but I
can't remember where.

Does anyone in the group know how Mrs. Marty
Mann recommended approaching businesses
where it was known that they had problems
with alcoholism among their employees?

It seems to me that when the EAP movement
started later on (Employee Assistance Progam),
that they found that it was easier to get
employees actually to come in, if they just
put it (at the public level) in terms of general
assistance with any kind of problem. But in
fact they found that in the majority of the
cases, alcohol and/or drugs were the cause of
all the other problems (marital, financial,
absenteeism, etc.).

I know we have members of the AAHistoryLovers
who have led EAP's, who could tell us more
about that.

G.C.
| 6277|6277|2010-01-25 14:55:55|bbthumpthump|Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White
Light Spiritual Experience while under the
effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,
which evokes hallucinations in the patient.

What can you tell me about this?

- - - -

From the moderator:

Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,
used to help keep the patient from going into
major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on
this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,
we don't really know the answer to this for
sure, based on my reading),

would that much of the belladonna still have been
in his system at the time of his vision of
light?

Could belladonna have given this sort of white
light experience as a hallucination? The
descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem
to be saying that it was like the hallucinations
accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,
and what you experience when you're having DT's
is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a
positive and fulfilling experience of relief
and freedom.

All in all, the descriptions I have read of
what belladonna does to you don't sound
anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light
experience:

Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision, tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating, breathing, and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.

That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s
mountain top experience to me!

But have any of our members ever had experience
with taking belladonna, perhaps in their
misspent youths? What actually happens when
you take the stuff?

Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and
very thorough study of all this in Message #1493
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493

Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved
in the treatment, etc., etc.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6278|6224|2010-01-25 14:59:53|diazeztone|Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter|
Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")
still alive?

(Clyde has email and website selling that
book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )

LD Pierce
aabibliography.com

- - - -

"J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).

There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
>
| 6279|6255|2010-01-25 15:03:19|jax760|Re: Bob E. (AA #11)|
As someone had pointed out previously there is a discrepancy in Bob's sober date detailed below in this excerpt from the manuscript the Golden Road of Devotion, Chapter Four "And We Began To Count Noses"

"We return to Akron to find Bob Evans. According to The Amos Roster, Bob had been dry sixteen months, dating his entry as October of 1936. Bob was a wealthy banker and is mentioned extensively in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note 64) Bob seems to vividly recall his entry in the fellowship, according to his taped or transcribed interview that the author of DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers refers to, as February of 1937 (Note 65) The difference between the two accounts, Evans' and Dr. Bob's, as to when Bob Evans arrived on the scene is frustrating and certainly leaves us with yet another unanswered question."

"DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers states that "Bob E." (Robert Evans) came into AA in February of 1937(Note 66) Unfortunately, this statement is not given a reference source (Note 67), although later it is referenced to the 1954 recording or transcript frequently cited and appears to be the recollections of Bob Evans himself. (Note 68) For now we will defer to DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers and place Bob Evans on our list in 1937."

"It is our position, that The Amos Roster as now introduced, is the most accurate source of information now available on the early Akron members. Being written by Dr. Bob in or before February of 1938, should rightly be considered more authoritative then sources previously used including the memory of various individuals who were sources for, or the authors of, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers and Pass It On."

"It is also interesting to note that The Amos Roster, as we have named it, or Dr. Bob's list is not referenced in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, leading this writer to believe that the document (The Amos Roster) was not known or made available to its author. (Note 69)"

Note 64 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101,116-119,122 123,142,146,152,156-157,176,217,221-223.

Note 65 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing C, T, 1954 (B). See p.101, Feb 37 Sobriety Date

Note 66 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101

Note 67 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 352, Sources, see 101 lines 10-11 are not referenced or cited.

Note 68 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing C, T, 1954 (B).

Note 69 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; pages 128-135.

The "Amos Roster" refers to Dr Bob's hand written list of members provided to Frank Amos in February of 1938. (See Below)

The Amos Report

Many of us are familiar with the events following the "counting of noses" which took place in Akron during the second week of October 1937. (Note 1) Bill was introduced to Willard Richardson, one of John D. Rockefeller's closest associates, by his brother-in-law Dr. Leonard Strong. After several meetings with Rockefeller's advisors, Frank Amos made a visit to Akron in mid February of 1938 to get a first hand look at Dr. Bob and the group of recovered drunks. His account of that visit, which was titled "THE NOTES ON AKRON, OHIO SURVEY by FRANK AMOS" is well documented in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note 2) and to a lesser extent in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age (Note 3) and Pass It On (Note 4)

The account of Amos's Akron visit given in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, as well as the other publications, omits one very important detail, that a list of the early Akron members was attached to The Amos Report. The likely reason for this key omission is because the list was not attached or included with The Amos Report filed in the GSO archives. A copy of this list, which was written by Dr. Bob on his office stationary, has recently been provided to the Archivist at GSO.

This list of the pioneering Akron members, which we have dubbed "The Amos Roster", is described below in an excerpt from a copy of The Amos Report (Note 5) It may prove to be the first written list of members ever produced by one of our co-founders.

"Alcoholic Group
There are now some fifty men, and, I believe, two women former alcoholics, all considered practically incurable by physicians, who have been reformed and so far have remained teetotalers. A list of some of them is attached giving their business, the length in months they have been "dry", the period in years they were drinking, and their present age."


Notes:

1. Chapter IV, The Golden Road of Devotion
2. DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, pages 128-134
3. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, pages 148-150
4. Pass It On, pages 181-187
5. 2/23/1938 (B)

Finally,

Many of us are guilty of perpetuating misinformation when we state that Joe Q Alcoholic was AA # "xyz"

After Bill Dotson there are precious few definitive dates or information on who got sober and when. The Amos Roster is an excellent source of info and must be considered "authoritative" but also has some nagging inconsistencies. We know they were counting members in New York and Akron seperately. For some, they factored in a slip into their sober time, for others they reset the clock. Still others appear to have been deleted after they relapsed and din't come back (i.e Phil Smith, Walter Bray, Harold Grisinger)The research I have done on the First Forty which I believe has better sources and citations then previous works posted on the internet shows that Bob Evans was the 23rd person to join the fellowship. These people below all appear to have "joined the fellowship" (meaning were trying to get or stay sober in the Oxford Group or with the help of Dr. Bob) before him.


1 Bill Wilson Dec 34 NY
2 Bob Smith May 35 Akron
3 Bill Dotson June 35 Akron
4 Ernie Galbraith July 35 Akron
5 Henry Parkhurst Sept 35 NJ
6 Walter Bray Sept 35 Akron
7 Phil Smith Oct 35 Akron
8 John Mayo Nov 35 MD
9 Silas Bent Nov 35 CT
10 Harold Grisinger Jan 36 Akron
11 Paul Stanley Jan 36 Akron
12 Tom Lucas Feb 36 Akron
13 Myron Williams Apr 36 NY
14 Joseph Doppler Apr 36 Cleveland
15 Robert Oviatt June 36 Cleveland
16 Harry Latta July 36 Akron
17 James Holmes Sept 36 Akron
18 Alfred Smith Jan 37 Akron
19 Alvin Borden Jan 37 Akron
20 Howard Searl Jan 37 Akron
21 William Ruddell Feb 37 NJ
22 Douglas Delanoy Feb 37 NJ
23 Robert Evans Feb 37 Akron

List is from the manuscript "The Golden Road of Devotion"...devoted History Lovers might wish to compare these names to the Akron 226 List and or 100 list "PIONEERS BY DATE OF SOBRIETY".

God Bless

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mdingle76" wrote:
>
> I like to speak for the "All Addicts Anonymous" people for I work for 24 Communications — the publishing group of AAA — which originally put out 24 Magazine. The article that J. Lobell refers to was written for 24 Magazine in September 1976 (6 months before the book "Dr. Bob and the Good oldtimers" was on the launching pad.) Yes, J. Lobell is right — the interview that we recorded of Bob E. (used in the Sept 1976, 24 Magazine) was later used in the "Dr. Bob" book. (It is believed that we still have the tape recording of this interview and that there was much more said by Bob E. not used in the article — although, I haven't bumped into the tape in our archives yet.)
>
> The Sept 1976 article said: "Bob E. is the senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship. He still lives today in Akron, Ohio, as he did when he came into the Akron group — the first Alcoholics Anonymous group — back in 1936. Not long ago he shared with us the following recollections of what AA was like in the days when he came in . . . "
>
> Now, in 1990, 24 Communications tried to publish several 12 step books through Harper (one was called "Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps," another one was "Dr. Bob and the 12 Steps," etc., etc.) Well, the "Dr. Bob and the 12 steps" book had featured the Bob E. article with a few minor changes — on of them being the death date of Bob E. as 1984. It said: "Bob E., until his death in 1984, was the senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship. . ."
>
> Does anybody else have any ideas or information about this?
>
> Matt D.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
> >
> > The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does not agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their article are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was begun March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the Record of Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would still have been the longest-sober member of A.A.
> >
> > But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb 1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member, which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.
> >
> > Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date in the AAA publication.
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262
> > "Re: Early meeting format"):
> >
> > "SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,
> > Bob E. shared ... the following recollection
> > of what AA was like when he first joined"
> >
> > IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:
> > <http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>
> >
> > SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"
> >
> > AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"
> >
>
| 6280|6276|2010-01-25 15:05:42|Charles Knapp|Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers|
Hello all,

A reprint of Chapter 10 was published in pamphlet
form in the early 1940's and distrubied by the
Alcoholic Foundation.

"What About the Alcoholic Employee?" was the
title of the pamphlet. I am sure these were
passed out to a few companies where there were
recovering alcoholic employees.

Charles from Wisconsin
| 6281|6277|2010-01-25 15:29:41|jax760|Re: Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
I suspect this thought crossed Bill's mind on one or two occasions.

From his 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society:

In December, 1934, I appeared at Towns Hospital, New York. My old
friend, Dr. William Silkworth, shook his head. Soon free of sedation and alcohol, I felt horribly depressed. My friend Ebby turned up. Though glad to see him, I shrank a little. I feared evangelism, but nothing of the sort happened.

After some small talk, I again asked him for his neat little formula for recovery. Quietly and sanely, without the slightest pressure, he told me. Then he left. Lying there in conflict, I dropped into the blackest depression I had ever known. Momentarily my prideful obstinacy was crushed. I cried out, "Now I'm ready to do anything — anything to receive what my friend Ebby has." Though I certainly didn't really expect anything, I did make this frantic appeal: "If there be a God, will He show Himself!"

The result was instant, electric, beyond description. The place seemed to light up, blinding white. I knew only ecstasy and seemed on a mountain. A great wind blew, enveloping and penetrating me. To me, it was not of air, but of Spirit. Blazing, there came the tremendous thought "You are a free man." Then the ecstasy subsided. Still on the bed, I now found myself in a new world of consciousness which was suffused by a Presence. One with the universe, a great peace stole over me. I thought, "So this is the God of the preachers, this is the Great Reality."

But soon my so-called reason returned, my modern education took over. I thought I must be crazy, and I became terribly frightened. Dr. Silkworth, a medical saint if ever there was one, came in to hear my trembling account of this phenomenon.

After questioning me carefully, he assured me that I was not mad, that I had perhaps undergone a psychic experience which might solve my problem. Skeptical man of science though he then was, this was most kind and astute. If he had said, "hallucination," I might now be dead. To him I shall ever be eternally grateful.

God Bless

- - - -

From the moderator:

O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that
point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little
bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.

And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna
to patients for some time, either knew in this
case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna
in his system, or that this was totally different
from any kind of belladonna-induced mental
aberrations.

So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a
"psychic experience" or religious experience
of some sort, and something which could not
possibly have been a drug-induced reaction
in this particular case.

Drug-induced stuff is totally different from
authentic life-changing religious experience,
in my observation. You don't give scared people
real permanent courage by giving them the
temporary illusion of courage from too much
alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact
from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-
convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries
their brains.

Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,
and changed permanently, and did NOT require
continuing on daily doses of belladonna in
order to keep him sober.

So I still don't see any clinical evidence that
you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by
one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic
LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that
sort. It doesn't work that way.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

"bbthumpthump" wrote:
>
> I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White
> Light Spiritual Experience while under the
> effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,
> which evokes hallucinations in the patient.
>
> What can you tell me about this?
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,
> used to help keep the patient from going into
> major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on
> this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,
> we don't really know the answer to this for
> sure, based on my reading),
>
> would that much of the belladonna still have been
> in his system at the time of his vision of
> light?
>
> Could belladonna have given this sort of white
> light experience as a hallucination? The
> descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem
> to be saying that it was like the hallucinations
> accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,
> and what you experience when you're having DT's
> is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a
> positive and fulfilling experience of relief
> and freedom.
>
> All in all, the descriptions I have read of
> what belladonna does to you don't sound
> anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light
> experience:
>
> Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision, tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating, breathing, and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.
>
> That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s
> mountain top experience to me!
>
> But have any of our members ever had experience
> with taking belladonna, perhaps in their
> misspent youths? What actually happens when
> you take the stuff?
>
> Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and
> very thorough study of all this in Message #1493
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493
>
> Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved
> in the treatment, etc., etc.
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
>
| 6282|6282|2010-01-29 18:50:44|BobR|2010 AA National Archives Workshop -- dates?|
Anyone know the dates for this year's National Archives Workshop? I know it's in Macon, Georgia and many, many months away but still it would be nice to be able to plan for it in advance.
| 6283|6283|2010-01-29 18:56:32|diazeztone|Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA|
I have a friend who is looking for speaker
tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.
I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is
looking for a big book study he did in
1992-1993.

Anybody have this or know where to find??

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com
eztone at hotmail
___________________________________

P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around
September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army
Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.
There were 12 tapes in the set.

I have found one by him with 8 tapes and
10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.
I prefer the one where he is very humble at
5 years.
| 6284|6284|2010-01-29 20:21:20|sally.kelly1941|Alcoholics Anonymous history time line|
Is there an existing print or online time line
of AA history? (i.e. a chronological, labeled
list of important dates, such as "Bill's sobriety
date," Bob's sobriety date," "Bill"s step five,"
"12 steps developed," "Alcoholics Anonymous
published," etc., etc.?

- - - -

From GC the moderator: two excellent AA timelines
can be found online on the internet.

One is put up by the New York GSO:

http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/

It is not quite as detailed as the second one
below, but has some very interesting items on
it. It is a very nice piece of work.

The other is the work of AAHistoryLovers member
Arthur S., who is an extremely careful and
knowledgeable historian, respected all over the
world for his precision and accuracy.

http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html

There are other timelines, which our AAHL folks
will be able to add to this list. But both of
these timelines are extremely well done, and are
very reliable.

Glenn C.
| 6285|6283|2010-01-29 20:22:33|James Bliss|Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA|
There is a set for sale at:

http://bigbookawakening.com/


- - - -

diazeztone wrote:
>
> I have a friend who is looking for speaker
> tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.
> I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is
> looking for a big book study he did in
> 1992-1993.
>
> Anybody have this or know where to find??
>
> LD Pierce
> www.aabibliography.com
> eztone at hotmail
> ___________________________________
>
> P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around
> September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army
> Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.
> There were 12 tapes in the set.
>
> I have found one by him with 8 tapes and
> 10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.
> I prefer the one where he is very humble at
> 5 years.
>
>
>
| 6286|6286|2010-01-29 20:32:17|Archives Historie|AA National Archives Workshop -- Sept. 23-26, 2010 -- Macon|
The NAW will be held September 23rd through the
26th.  The hotel will be the Marriott City Center
in Macon, Georgia.  No further details as of yet.
 
In Love and service,
 
David in Daytona
| 6287|6277|2010-01-30 12:13:21|corafinch|Re: Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
Ther is a new book out, The Harvard Psychedelic Club by Don Lattin, with a little information about Bill Wilson that I've not seen elsewhere. It takes up only a couple of pages in the book, so I just read those pages standing is the aisle at Barnes and Noble and didn't get the book. Apparently Huston Smith interviewed Bill and the person who gave him the LSD, a few months after Bill's first trip. Bill told Smith that the experience was a dead ringer for the famous white light experience.

I'm not sure how much significance should be attached to that remark. Bill was presumably trying to give Gerald Heard and Huston Smith something they would be interested to hear, and that motivation at that particular time probably shaped his recollection.

Nevertheless, there a a few things Glenn said that I would tend to disagree with, and I'll intersperse them:
>
> From the moderator:
>
> O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that
> point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little
> bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.

From what I've read, alcoholics were given true "sedatives" only for the first day or so, to guard against the most dangerous manifestations of withdrawal. The belladonna mixture itself was continued longer, possibly for the entire 4 or 5 day hospitalization. Dr. Lambert (see Bill Pittman, AA the Way It Began or by its other title, The Roots of AA) specified that the belladonna mixture had to be given in doses sufficient to produce flushed skin and dilated pupils. Otherwise, according to Lambert, it would not bring about the desired result of a "cessation in the desire" for alcohol.

The traditional mnemonic for atropine toxicity is "blind as a bat, dry as a bone, red as a beet, mad as a hatter." In addition, the patients were given large doses of vegetable and mineral laxatives, enough to produce "bilious stools," which would have caused some degree of electrolyte and fluid depletion. Maybe Lambert thought he was preventing "wet brain." Some doctors thought that way at the time, reasoning that DTs had something to do with cerebral edema.

>
> And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna
> to patients for some time, either knew in this
> case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna
> in his system, or that this was totally different
> from any kind of belladonna-induced mental
> aberrations.
>
> So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a
> "psychic experience" or religious experience
> of some sort, and something which could not
> possibly have been a drug-induced reaction
> in this particular case.

In view of Dr. Lambert's remarks about the cessation of desire for alcohol, how do you know that what happened to Bill wasn't just what Dr. Silkworth was hoping for? Maybe it was a rare but positive development. If you were Dr. Silkworth, would you have just said, "Forget it, it's the mad as a hatter part, you'll get over it?"

Pupillary dilatation can certainly cause visual "haloes" or the sensation of white light. Of course, it only happened after Bill prayed for an epiphany, and so cannot have been entirely attributable to the drug. Similarly, the "rushing wind" effect is often recalled as part of epiphanies and it has been suggested that the autonomic effects of the ecstasy increase cardiac output and make people momentarily "hear" their own pulse. This could also have been potentiated by the increased cardiac output caused by the belladonna.

No, I'm not trying to explain it all away, but it might not be right to say that there was no connection. If you block a person's parasympathetic nervous system, as the atropine family of drugs does, the unopposed sympathetic nervous system can produce some strange effects.

>
> Drug-induced stuff is totally different from
> authentic life-changing religious experience,
> in my observation. You don't give scared people
> real permanent courage by giving them the
> temporary illusion of courage from too much
> alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact
> from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-
> convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries
> their brains.
>
> Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,
> and changed permanently, and did NOT require
> continuing on daily doses of belladonna in
> order to keep him sober.
>
> So I still don't see any clinical evidence that
> you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by
> one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic
> LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that
> sort. It doesn't work that way.

I agree one hundred percent. Part of the lesson, though, is that things that "work" can be our worst enemies, just because they "work." Xanax and the other tranquilizers work. Almost any downer will, and there a are people who swear by amphetamines (for adult ADD, of course). Ibogaine (a newer type of hallucinogen) may even work. Just because Bill used something and it "worked" doesn't mean that it was the reason he stayed sober. There are no free lunches.
-Cora

>
| 6288|6277|2010-01-30 12:34:50|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
I finally found what I was looking for -- some eyewitness accounts by people who had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like.

Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.

When we are told that a substance causes "hallucinations," we tend to automatically assume today that some of these are going to be pleasant hallucinations, such as people sometimes get from LSD and magic mushrooms, where some people get wonderful feelings of the divinity of the whole universe, and being one with the universe, and that sort of thing. We might imagine that -- along with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and Marshmallow Clouds -- that maybe, just maybe, a person high on something like this might have Bill Wilson's kind of experience.

But in fact, all you seem to get from belladonna is a relatively "bad trip," not a "good trip." There tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish quality to the hallucinations and delusions. That is why belladonna (which is easily available, we've had it growing wild in our back yard) has never become popular with the druggies. In the U.S., it isn't even illegal, on the theory that no one would ever find this a satisfying recreational drug.
______________________________

At any rate, you can read to your heart's content in the wide selection of first hand accounts written by people who have taken belladonna, which are given in:

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html

Some of them which I read were:
 
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9392
100% Visual Hallucinations, Belladonna, by parXal

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=35717.html
A Trip I'll Never Forget, Belladonna,
by Astral Perceptionz

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=18736.html
The Manson Family killed on this plant,
Atropa belladonna, by Kevin

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=30718.html
Wandering Delirium, Belladonna (roots), by yamamushi
______________________________

THE ONLY ONE I FOUND WHICH DESCRIBED MYSTICAL
EXPERIENCES or religious experiences in any
sense of the word was the following one --

but what the person took ALSO included magic
mushrooms -- in this case the variety known as
liberty cap (Psilocybe semilanceata, a
psychedelic mushroom that contains the
psychoactive compound psilocybin)

-- SO THIS IS THE EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE RULE.

Belladonna by itself does NOT seem to produce
the kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences
which some people have reported after taking
LSD or magic mushrooms or peyote.

But for the details, read this person's first
hand account of mixing belladonna with magic
mushrooms:

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=48411.html
Sensory Illusion Destroyed
Mushrooms, Belladonna & Brugmansia, by The Craic
______________________________

LET'S COMPARE THE PURE BELLADONNA EXPERIENCES
WHICH WE HAVE READ ABOVE, TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT
OF HIS OWN EXPERIENCE:

Big Book p. 14:

"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a
peace and serenity as I had never know.  There was
utter confidence.  I felt lifted up, as though the great
clean wind of a mountain top blew through and
through.  God comes to most men gradually, but His
impact on me was sudden and profound."

"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,
the doctor, to ask if I were still sane.  He listened in
wonder as I talked."

"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has
happened to you I don't understand.  But you had
better hang on to it.  Anything is better than the way
you were." The good doctor now sees many men who
have such experiences.  He knows that they are real."

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his
1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL
Message 6281):

"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, 'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right. Things are all right with God and His world."

"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled back and said to me, 'You are halluncinating. You had better get the doctor.' Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here. I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had actually happened."

"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."
______________________________

In this case, Lecture 3 "The Reality of the Unseen," and parts of Lectures 4-5 "The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness," would have given Bill W. examples of other people who had had similar experiences.

Near the beginning of Lecture 4, James quoted from R. M. Bucke's book Cosmic Consciousness, for example, and later on he quotes from R. W. Trine, In Tune with the Infinite.

Mel Barger has often emphasized the importance of Bucke and Trine for understanding Bill Wilson's religious experiences.

James also frequently refers (in this part of his book) to the New England Transcendentalists (Emerson, Thoreau, and so on, and God as the Over-Soul).

James also makes a number of references in this part of his book to the poety of Walt Whitman (a later outgrowth of the Transcendentalist movement).

All of these are useful for understanding Bill W's spirituality.
______________________________

But the most important observation to make is, to my mind, that Bill Wilson's experience was very, very different from the sort of nightmarish trip that people seem to have when they take belladonna. It wasn't the same thing at all.
| 6289|6289|2010-01-30 13:06:12|Shakey1aa@aol.com|AA National Archives Workshop website|
As soon as fuller info is available for the
AA National Archives Workshop in Macon, it
should be posted on this website:

http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group
| 6290|6290|2010-01-30 13:15:34|denise200305|Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
This is a question about putting up banners in
AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
and 12 Concepts written on them.

I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.

We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
group.

An old timer and very knowledgeable member
advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
(e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).

He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
saying that he was against the banners.

I have never read or heard this before. I have
dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
on this.

So was wondering if you may have anything on
the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
on their use (if he ever said anything about
them) as I am very interested in finding out
if this was so.

Really appreciate your time
Thanking you
Kind Regards Denise
Member Brisbane Traditions Group
Australia
| 6291|6266|2010-01-30 14:04:16|Ben Humphreys|Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel|
I think it was one of Bill W.'s tall tales.
It was supposedly frozen in ice .... one of the
old Big Books with the red and yellow covers.

We should collect some of these old AA jokes
and tall tales.

Ben H.
| 6292|6292|2010-01-30 14:19:59|Stockholm Fellowship|Travel Discounts to EURYPAA|
EURYPAA = All-Europe Young People in A.A.

Discounts for travel to EURYPAA are available
on Continental Airlines, American Airlines and
most One World partner airlines. Visit

http://www.eurypaa.org/2010/index.php?p=4 for details.

The 1st annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. conference will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. Hundreds of AAs from across Europe - and around the world - are coming together in fellowship and celebration of sobriety through A.A. Don't miss it!

More information at www.EURYPAA.org/2010
| 6293|6276|2010-01-30 14:22:58|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers|
From Bailey and Mel Barger

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Pretty close to thirty years ago, I loaned
the book with its chapter noted to my supervisors
who were having problems with an alcoholic
employee.

They gave me the book back after a while.
Subsequently they laid the employee off.
He was hired by another company, and laid off
there, on his way back to the local area he
drove his car into the support for an overpass
and was killed.

- - - -

From: Mel B. <melb@buckeye-access.com>
(melb at buckeye-access.com)

Hi Harriet,

It seems to me that I read once that the
employers section was printed as a separate
pamphlet. Though short on cash, the AA
pioneers considered this to be so important
that they reprinted it in this form as an
inexpensive way to reach employers.

Mel Barger, Toledo
melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)
| 6294|6276|2010-01-30 14:24:59|secondles|Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers|
There is a somewhat related method for dealing with employers which does not exactly fit with this question but nonetheless is a support system for alcoholics regarding employment.

There has been a State/Federal program called Vocational Rehabilitation which operates in all States which began in 1922. I was involved with this program professionaly throughout my career. Seven years of that career I carried a case load as a Counselor in the State of Maryland (1955-1962), and the next 25 years in executive positions administuring that program with the Federal Office (OSERS-RSA). It is a program which serves a broad range of disabilities, including alcoholism, provided the disability constitutes a Vocational problem. It is not a "welfare" type of program and sometimes a client may be asked to participate in certain costs associated with his rehabilitation plan. Mostly those services are free or handled cooperatively with other agencies. Job Placement (dealing with employers) is one of the services. It respects confidentiality just like other professions.

It is customary when a Counselor has a case concerning alcoholism,(and it might start with a referral from an employer who would like to keep an employee who is being or causing a problem) that the question of job adjustment needs to be discussed. Perhaps the Counselor might discuss the idea of AA with the Client. Perhaps the employer might benefit if the Counselor interceded and offered some insight (with the client's permission) about the client's positive aspects such as underutilized skills, etc.

I don't want to discuss the whole program which is always individualized (and I personally didn't understand the AA-12-Steps program back then) but I mention the VR program here to point out that sometimes it is not simply reading the Big Book, or something related, which is useful. A hands-on, compassionate, professional helper might be needed...perhaps with the person, or with the employer, or both.

Les C.
Colorado Springs, CO
| 6295|6295|2010-01-30 14:34:11|Robert Stonebraker|AA timeline|
Sally K. asked about AA timelines:

For a 57-page AA timeline, you can go to:

http://www.4dgroups.org

Click "Downloads" - click Documents - scroll
down to "Original 57 Page Timeline" (2004)
. . plus, you will find the same updated
(2007) timeline on the next page.

I keep this timeline next to my PC at all times.

Bob S.

- - - -

From the moderator:

This timeline

http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=fileinfo&id=9

seems to be another version of Arthur S.'s
excellent timeline mentioned in the previous
message.

Glenn C.
| 6296|6224|2010-01-30 14:44:19|J. Lobdell|Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter|
From Jared Lobdell and Shakey Mike.

LD Pierce (aabibliography.com) had asked,

"is Clyde B. ('Freeman Carpenter') still alive?"

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

Still alive -- and on Facebook (full real name)
-- and will be 90 on March 12.

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Clyde is still with us. I saw him about 2 months
ago at a Unity pitch given by the Southeastern
Pennsylvania Intergroup Assn, SEPIA, of whom I
am a past Chairperson. I approached him about
helping out in a meet and greet sometime in the
near future for the Archives Committee. Of course
he said he would if he could.

He originally got sober in the Boston Area, before
moving to Bucks county outside Philadelphia. He
has volunteered for a long time at Livengrin, a
rehab on the old estate of Mercedes Mc C., an
Oscar winning actress( All the King's Men).

Because of the recent interest in him,and I hope
it is not because of his length of sobriety
only, I will give him a call tomorrow if for
nothing more than one alcoholic talking to
another.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group

- - - -

Original messages from LD Pierce and J. Lobdell:

> From: eztone@hotmail.com
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010
> Subject: Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter
>
> Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")
> still alive?
>
> (Clyde has email and website selling that
> book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )
>
> LD Pierce
> aabibliography.com
>
> - - - -
>
> "J. Lobdell" wrote:
> >
> > My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).
>
> There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
>
>
| 6297|6297|2010-02-02 12:34:12|Charlie C|Roy L. Smith, Emergency Rations|
Not long ago I got some of the reprint "can openers" available from the Akron AA Archives website. Interesting stuff, including the meditation booklet by Roy L. Smith, "Emergency Rations." I have found some biographical info on him, but am curious still to find out what, if any, contact he might have had with AA. As a Methodist preacher and writer in a time when many of their publications were popular in AA circles, e.g. the "Upper Room," it might have been just from that general connection, but I was wondering if anyone knew of more direct contact between him and AA folks?

Charlie C.IM = route20guy
"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It would frae monie a blunder free us
an foolish notion...."

To a Louse, Rob't Burns
| 6298|6298|2010-02-02 12:42:51|jaynebirch55|Use of sweets|
Hello friends,

Jayne from Barking Big Book study here. The group has asked if you have any information on the doctor mentioned on page 133 of the Big Book who advised that the use of sweets was often helpful.

God bless

Jayne

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator, see Big Book pp. 133-134:

"ALCOHOLICS SHOULD CONSTANTLY HAVE CHOCOLATE AVAILABLE"

"One of the many doctors who had the opportunity
of reading this book in manuscript form told us that
the use of sweets was often helpful, of course depend-
ing upon a doctor's advice. He thought all alcoholics
should constantly have chocolate available for its
quick energy value at times of fatigue. He added that
occasionally in the night a vague craving arose which
would be satisfied by candy. Many of us have noticed
a tendency to eat sweets and have found this practice
beneficial."
| 6299|6277|2010-02-02 13:30:37|Lawrence Willoughby|Re: Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
In my 35 years of clinical experience, with one of my specialties being the treatment of adolescents who are alcoholics and drug addicts, I have known at least a thousand cases of people who have experimented with using belladonna to get high.

Belladonna to the best of my experiences with patients has NEVER produced anything like what Bill Wilson reported happening to him at Towns Hospital.

It is always bad.

The attempt to claim that Bill Wilson's experience was a hallucination induced by belladonna is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Where is this coming from?

Larry

========================================
Lawrence Willoughby, thirty-five years in the
clinical specialties areas of substance abuse,
trauma, PTSD including combat. Has been a
clinical supervisor, CEO of a partial program,
MSW, LCSW, DCSW.
========================================

Message: No. 6288 from Glenn Chesnut
<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

I finally found what I was looking for -- some
eyewitness accounts by people who had taken
belladonna, describing what happened and what
it felt like

.... all you seem to get from belladonna is a
relatively "bad trip," not a "good trip." There
tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish
quality to the hallucinations and delusions.

Belladonna by itself does NOT ... produce the
kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences
which some people have reported after taking LSD
or magic mushrooms or peyote.

You can read to your heart's content in the wide
selection of first hand accounts written by people
who have taken belladonna, which are given in:

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html

COMPARE THIS TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT OF HIS
OWN VERY POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING EXPERIENCE:

Big Book p. 14:

"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a
peace and serenity as I had never know. There was
utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great
clean wind of a mountain top blew through and
through. God comes to most men gradually, but His
impact on me was sudden and profound."

"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,
the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in
wonder as I talked."

"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has
happened to you I don't understand. But you had
better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way
you were." The good doctor now sees many men who
have such experiences. He knows that they are real."

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his
1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL
Message 6281):

"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show
Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a
great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to
describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that
a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I
was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a
time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and
through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself,
'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I
thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right.
Things are all right with God and His world."

"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled
back and said to me, 'You are hallucinating. You had better get the doctor.'
Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you
are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here.
I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release
people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had
actually happened."

"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a
copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather
difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."
| 6300|6277|2010-02-02 14:09:00|Tom Hickcox|Re: Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
Didn't Bill's grandfather have a spiritual
experience of some sort at the granite mill
up on the mountain?

Tommy

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

That story is told in Francis Hartigan's book,
Bill W.; A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous
Cofounder Bill Wilson, page 11.

Francis Hartigan was Lois Wilson's secretary.
William C. ("Willie") Wilson was Bill W.'s
paternal grandfather.

==========================================
"William Wilson may have preferred inn keeping to quarrying, but inn keeping is seldom the right occupation for a hard-drinking man. His attempts to control his drinking led him to try Temperance pledges and the services of revival-tent preachers. Then, in a desperate state one Sunday morning, he climbed to the top of Mount Aeolus. There, after beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was a conversion experience that left him feeling so transformed that he practically ran down the mountain and into town."

"When he reached the East Dorset Congregational Church, which is across the street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to the shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather never drank again. He was to live another eight years, sober."
==========================================
| 6301|6301|2010-02-03 11:56:21|Shakey1aa@aol.com|When Love Is Not Enough -- Lois Wilson Story -- April 25, 2010|
The movie about Lois Wilson -- When Love Is
Not Enough -- airs in the U.S. on Sunday,
April 25 at 9 P.M. EST in a Hallmark Hall of
Fame Presentation on the CBS Network.

http://winona-ryder.org/2010/01/when-love-is-not-enough-release-date/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This is based on Bill B's book.

Yours in Service.
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore group
| 6302|6290|2010-02-03 12:05:06|diazeztone|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
My opinion -- that is all this is -- if you are
a traditions group you would certainly have the
traditions and concepts on the wall.

LD Pierce

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"denise200305" wrote:
>
> This is a question about putting up banners in
> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>
> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.
>
> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
> group.
>
> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>
> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
> saying that he was against the banners.
>
> I have never read or heard this before. I have
> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
> on this.
>
> So was wondering if you may have anything on
> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
> on their use (if he ever said anything about
> them) as I am very interested in finding out
> if this was so.
>
> Really appreciate your time
> Thanking you
> Kind Regards Denise
> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
> Australia
>
| 6303|6303|2010-02-03 13:59:36|aalogsdon|U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It!|
I have a small photo taken in 1981 showing four
people -- Brinkley Smithers, William Bolger (the
Postmaster), Lois Wilson, and a fourth unidentified
man -- along with a U.S. first-class postage
stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can
Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.

Who is the fourth man in the photo?

Where can I obtain a copy of this photo?

Thanks.
| 6304|6303|2010-02-04 12:49:12|Charles Knapp|Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It!|
I had a copy of that same photo at one time.
Somehow the photo became corrupt and I lost it.
I found it on the Internet a few years ago and
have never seen it since. This was the caption
that was with the photo:

Alcoholism Stamp Issued

First Day Stamp issued, featuring Alcoholism,
August 19, 1981. In celebration four important
individuals, in promoting awareness of Alcoholism
as public health problem pictured:

Walter J. Murphy, Lois Wilson, widow of the
co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous; William
F. Bolger, Postmaster Genera; and R. Brinkley
Smithers; Board member of the NCA and Financier
of the Modern Alcoholism Movement.

Couldn't find anything on Walter J Murphy other
than he became the Executive Director of NCADD,
but not sure of his role in 1981.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From the original question:

The stamp in question is a U.S. first-class postage
stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can
Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.
| 6305|6305|2010-02-05 13:44:35|sally.kelly1941|AA history book from GSO?|
Thanks to all who directed me to time lines
for AA history. There is one submitted by a
Michael S to the Fourth Dimension Meetings web
site that appears to be the Arthur S timeline
with updates.

AA HISTORY BOOK: 1950 TO THE PRESENT

It follows the progress, through GSC meetings,
of a planned AA history book, covering the period
since 1950, being prepared by GSO. The last
mention on that time line of that effort is at
the 45th GSC meeting in 1995.

Who knows what became of that effort?
| 6306|6295|2010-02-05 13:49:38|M.J. Johnson|Re: AA timeline, Arthur's 2005-to-present update coming soon|
Have there been any updates to Arthur S.'s
timeline since 2007?

- - - -

ARTHUR RESPONDS:

I'll be doing a major update this summer for
2005 to 2010 and offer it to members of AAHL
via email.

Cheers

Arthur
| 6307|6266|2010-02-05 13:58:42|tomper87|Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel|
In "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" this story is referred to as a legend. Legend is defined as a nonhistorical or unverifiable story handed down by tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical. Consequently there is probably no basis in fact for this story. Not that we can't benefit from these "wonderful legends".
| 6308|6266|2010-02-05 13:58:49|Tom Pasek|Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel|
I can't make any suggestions on the "Tall Tales"
part, but The Grapevine has recently come out
with a new book entitled "A Rabbit Walks into
This Bar.."

It's a great collection of alkie jokes.

Tom Pasek, CEO
Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC
tom@shaggyd.com
2521 Innisfree Drive
Bakersfield, California 93309
www.shaggyd.com

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

I will submit an old joke I heard about 35 years ago. Most group members had this long litany introducing themselves when they would speak up in a meeting.

The sponsor brought in a new comer who was not quite through drinking.

Sponsor says," I am John Doe and through the grace of God and AA, I have not found it necessary to take a drink to day". He goes on with his sharing.

Now the newcomer takes the floor with, " I am Hasent Been Sober and by the grace of God and AA I haven't found it necessary to take a drink today.

His Sponsor whispers to him, "Why you s.o.b. you were drinking this morning.

And the newcomer says, "Yes but it was not necessary."
| 6309|6290|2010-02-05 13:59:56|Jon Markle|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
Tradition 4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

Let the group conscious decide what it wants to do. That's the only answer that makes sense here, or the only one that really matters. It doesn't even matter whether or not Bill W had anything to say about it or not. It would have only been his personal opinion, which carries as much weight as mine or any other member on this subject.

Groups are always querying a "higher authority" to get a "ruling" on such things. There isn't any such authority in AA. We learned that a long long time ago. (hopefully)

So, do what you want to. As long as it does not impact AA as a whole or another group, it's really no one's business but that particular group.

- - - -

On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:39 PM, diazeztone wrote:

> My opinion -- that is all this is -- if you are
> a traditions group you would certainly have the
> traditions and concepts on the wall.
>
> LD Pierce
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
> "denise200305" wrote:
>>
>> This is a question about putting up banners in
>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
>> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>>
>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.
>>
>> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
>> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
>> group.
>>
>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>>
>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
>> saying that he was against the banners.
>>
>> I have never read or heard this before. I have
>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
>> on this.
>>
>> So was wondering if you may have anything on
>> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
>> on their use (if he ever said anything about
>> them) as I am very interested in finding out
>> if this was so.
>>
>> Really appreciate your time
>> Thanking you
>> Kind Regards Denise
>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
>> Australia
>>
>
| 6310|6277|2010-02-05 14:03:43|Edward|Re: Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
By an odd coincidence:

I got sober at a city mission in Virginia that has both a night shelter (the only one in town that does not exclude the intoxicated) and a long-term residential program for drunks and drug addicts, and I still volunteer there.

Of late, some younger alcoholics who have dropped out of the program but stay in the shelter have been trying jimson weed for its hallucinogenic properties and often have to be transported by ambulance to the local detox for safekeeping.

They turn up drunk again as soon as they're released, so at least we can assume that the experiences brought on by hyoscine, scopolamine and hyoscyamine do not remove the urge to drink.

It is indeed said to be a "poor man's trip", nowhere near as pleasant as the illegal psychedelics, and I heard a rhyme about it which goes "Can't see, can't spit, can't pee, can't .." (I think most alkies can probably figure out the last word).

Y'all's in service
Ted G.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> I finally found what I was looking for -- some eyewitness accounts by people who had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like.
>
> Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.
>
>
| 6311|6303|2010-02-05 14:15:14|Stephen Gentile|Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It!|
From Stephen Gentile, Mike B. (tuswecaoyate),
Mike Barns (mikeb384), and Dudley Dobinson

- - - -

From: Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com>
(sagentile at hotmail.com)

Here is a picture I found on the net.

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5520258/2/istockphoto_5520258-alcoholism-postage-stamp.jpg

- - - -

From: "Mike B" <tuswecaoyate@yahoo.com>
(tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com)

Here is a link with a photo of the stamp. Mike

http://www.mysticstamp.com/viewProducts.asp?sku=1927

- - - -

From: Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

http://www.arpinphilately.com/blog/how-are-postage-stamps-designed/en/

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

I do not have the photo but do have all the official papers relating to the day this stamp was issued in DC and have attached scans. The quote from the Egyptian hieroglyphics may be of interest to this group. I suspect the photo mentioned to be a private one taken at the ceremony. I also have a copy of the invitation.

Email me, and I will send you (as an email attachment) scans of the official papers and a copy of the invitation.

Dudley - Birr Ireland
| 6312|6312|2010-02-05 14:38:48|mykeblanch|Ed The salesman /Tradition three|
I have a few questions that I was hoping that
someone could answer.

In the chapter on tradition 3 in the 12 & 12
[see pp. 143-145], it mentions Ed the salesman.
Doing a search I find that Ed was possibly Jim
Burwell. Is that correct?

After asking for money and help, did the group
really leave him to fend for himself?

Last question is which AA member's house did he
sneak into by night? [p. 144]

Any history on this story would be appreciated.

Mike

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

I am sure that we have people in the AAHL who
will be able to supply a good deal of additional
information. But be sure and see Nancy Olson's
material at:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#TheViciousCycle

on Jim Burwell MD and the Big Book story "The Vicious Cycle"
(2nd edition #238, 3rd edition #238, 4th edition #219).

Also see Message 3080

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3080

from Shakey Mike.
| 6313|6303|2010-02-05 20:15:35|Tom Hickcox|Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It!|
At 15:43 2/4/2010, Stephen Gentile wrote:
>- - - -
>
>From: Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com>
>(sagentile at hotmail.com)
>
>Here is a picture I found on the net.
>
>http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5520258/2/istockphoto_5520258-alcoholism-postage-stamp.jpg
>
>- - - -

Several years ago this stamp and an associated first day cover, at
least I think that is what they are called, envelope with a photo of
Bill W and his handwritten version of the original six steps was
available on eBay and I purchased it for a very modest fee..

I suspect other examples are out there, I've seen them. A stamp
collector would likely know more about this issue.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
| 6314|6290|2010-02-05 20:17:19|t|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
I don't know if they qualify as the banners you
are asking about, but most groups I have gone to
or visited in the US since the late 70's have
had the steps and traditions prominently displayed
... either on the old window shades or the newer
2 foot x 3 foot folding placards that were purchased
thru the local intergroup or GSO in NY.

Somehow I don't think so many groups would have
them up, or that the intergroups and GSO would
be selling such things if Bill W had come out
against them.


>>
>> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
>> "denise200305" wrote:
>>
>>> This is a question about putting up banners in
>>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
>>> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>>>
>>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.
>>>
>>> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
>>> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
>>> group.
>>>
>>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
>>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
>>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
>>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>>>
>>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
>>> saying that he was against the banners.
>>>
>>> I have never read or heard this before. I have
>>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
>>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
>>> on this.
>>>
>>> So was wondering if you may have anything on
>>> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
>>> on their use (if he ever said anything about
>>> them) as I am very interested in finding out
>>> if this was so.
>>>
>>> Really appreciate your time
>>> Thanking you
>>> Kind Regards Denise
>>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
>>> Australia
>>>
| 6315|6315|2010-02-10 14:11:17|doci333|Dropkick Murphy's in Jack Mc.'s poem Drunks|
Good Day Everyone,

In the poem by Jack Mc., "Drunks," what is meant
when he writes, in one line of the poem,

"and sent us to places like Dropkick Murphy's"?

Line 31 underlined - See below please

THE POEM CAN BE FOUND IN A NUMBER OF PLACES,
FOR EXAMPLE:

http://www.sobermusicians.com/drunks.html

http://www.standupoet.net/ (Click Poems then to Drunks)

Google has many pages about the band by that
name, but I didn't see anything in our group's
past postings when I searched there.

Respectfully,

Dave G.

Illinois

U.S.A.

THE WORDS OF THE POEM:

DRUNKS
for my father, and the people who almost saved his life

We died of pneumonia in furnished rooms
where they found us three days later
when somebody complained about the smell
we died against bridge abutments
and nobody knew if it was suicide
and we probably didn't know either
except in the sense that it was always suicide
we died in hospitals
our stomachs huge, distended
and there was nothing they could do
we died in cells
never knowing whether we were guilty or not.

We went to priests
they gave us pledges
they told us to pray
they told us to go and sin no more, but go
we tried and we died

we died of overdoses
we died in bed (but usually not the Big Bed)
we died in straitjackets
in the DTs seeing God knows what
creeping skittering slithering
shuffling things

And you know what the worst thing was?
The worst thing was that
nobody ever believed how hard we tried

We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take
that would make us sick when we drank
on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess
or maybe they just shook their heads
__________________________________________
and sent us places like Dropkick Murphy's
__________________________________________

and when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde
or maybe we lied to the doctors
and they told us not to drink so much
just drink like me
and we tried
and we died

we drowned in our own vomit
or choked on it
our broken jaws wired shut
we died playing Russian roulette
and people thought we'd lost
but we knew better
we died under the hoofs of horses
under the wheels of vehicles
under the knives and bootheels of our brother drunks
we died in shame

And you know what was even worse?
was that we couldn't believe it ourselves
that we had tried
we figured we just thought we tried
and we died believing that
we didn't know what it meant to try

When we were desperate enough
or hopeful or deluded or embattled enough to go for help
we went to people with letters after their names
and prayed that they might have read the right books
that had the right words in them
never suspecting the terrifying truth
that the right words, as simple as they were
had not been written yet

We died falling off girders on high buildings
because of course ironworkers drink
of course they do
we died with a shotgun in our mouth
or jumping off a bridge
and everybody knew it was suicide
we died under the Southeast Expressway
with our hands tied behind us
and a bullet in the back of our head
because this time the people that we disappointed
were the wrong people
we died in convulsions, or of "insult to the brain"
we died incontinent, and in disgrace, abandoned
if we were women, we died degraded,
because women have so much more to live up to
we tried and we died and nobody cried

And the very worst thing
was that for every one of us that died
there were another hundred of us, or another thousand
who wished that we could die
who went to sleep praying we would not have to wake up
because what we were enduring was intolerable
and we knew in our hearts
it wasn't ever gonna change

One day in a hospital room in New York City
one of us had what the books call
a transforming spiritual experience
and he said to himself

I've got it
(no you haven't you've only got part of it)

and I have to share it
(now you've ALMOST got it)

and he kept trying to give it away
but we couldn't hear it

the transmission line wasn't open yet
we tried to hear it
we tried and we died

we died of one last cigarette
the comfort of its glowing in the dark
we passed out and the bed caught fire
they said we suffocated before our body burned
they said we never felt a thing
that was the best way maybe that we died
except sometimes we took our family with us

And the man in New York was so sure he had it
he tried to love us into sobriety
but that didn't work either, love confuses drunks
and he tried and still we died
one after another we got his hopes up
and we broke his heart
because that's what we do

And the worst thing was that every time
we thought we knew what the worst thing was
something happened that was worse

Until a day came in a hotel lobby
and it wasn't in Rome, or Jerusalem, or Mecca
or even Dublin, or South Boston
it was in Akron, Ohio, for Christ's sake

a day came when the man said I have to find a drunk
because I need him as much as he needs me
(NOW
you've got it)

and the transmission line
after all those years
was open
the transmission line was open

And now we don't go to priests
and we don't go to doctors
and people with letters after their names
we come to people who have been there
we come to each other
and we try
and we don't have to die


©—Jack Mc
| 6316|6303|2010-02-10 14:15:16|john wikelius|Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It!|
As a stamp collector, I have a thousand
stamps of Alcoholism.

1981 First Day Covers are available as well.

Used stamps value at 0.50, unused approx 1.50.

They make great gifts.
| 6317|6303|2010-02-10 14:15:24|Charley Bill|Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It!|
Charles,

I have several 8X10 B&Wphotos of that ceremony
and a mint page of the stamps, given to me by
Dr Joe Zuska., who is in some of the pictures.

I will try to find these pictures, scan and
forward them to you, perhaps next Monday. I
can send a picture of the stamps, too, if you
want it.

Charley Bill <charley_b@verizon.net>
(charley_b at verizon.net)

On 2/3/2010 5:20 PM, Charles Knapp wrote:
>
> I had a copy of that same photo at one time.
> Somehow the photo became corrupt and I lost it.
> I found it on the Internet a few years ago and
> have never seen it since. This was the caption
> that was with the photo:
>
> Alcoholism Stamp Issued
>
> First Day Stamp issued, featuring Alcoholism,
> August 19, 1981. In celebration four important
> individuals, in promoting awareness of Alcoholism
> as public health problem pictured:
>
> Walter J. Murphy, Lois Wilson, widow of the
> co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous; William
> F. Bolger, Postmaster Genera; and R. Brinkley
> Smithers; Board member of the NCA and Financier
> of the Modern Alcoholism Movement.
>
> Couldn't find anything on Walter J Murphy other
> than he became the Executive Director of NCADD,
> but not sure of his role in 1981.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Charles from Wisconsin
>
> - - - -
>
> >From the original question:
>
> The stamp in question is a U.S. first-class postage
> stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can
> Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.
>
| 6318|6277|2010-02-10 14:21:23|pvttimt@aol.com|Re: Bill's spiritual experience -- belladonna induced?|
As an EMT in an area where Jimson weed grows by the side of the road, I can tell you first hand that our patients who ingest Jimson tea do not appear to be having a very good time. We usually have to put them in restraints in order to transport, and based on what the ER docs say, the physostigmine antidote is almost as dangerous as the weed itself.

Tim T.

- - - -

Original message from: Edward <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:15 am

I got sober at a city mission in Virginia that
has ... a night shelter. Of late, some younger
alcoholics who have dropped out of the program
but stay in the shelter have been trying jimson
weed for its hallucinogenic properties and
often have to be transported by ambulance to
the local detox for safekeeping.

They turn up drunk again as soon as they're
released, so at least we can assume hat the
experiences brought on by hyoscine, scopolamine
and hyoscyamine do not remove the urge to drink.

- - - -

Belladonna has the same psychoactive components
as jimsonweed (Datura tramonium) -- atropine,
hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.
| 6319|6319|2010-02-10 14:36:58|diazeztone|Gert Behanna's son|
I have long had some pages on my site about
Gert Behanna and her books, AA talks, and things.

I had an email from her son a few years ago and
I never heard back from him. Does anyone know how
to contact him?

Did any of you ever have a conversation with Bard
(Gert Behanna's son)?

I write this on behalf of another member also
who contacted me, from the Louisville Metro
Traditions Group, by the name of L L

ld pierce
www.aabibliography.com
eztone at hotmail dot com
| 6320|6320|2010-02-10 14:49:20|Ben Hammond|Bridge of Reason|
Howdy All ... I have been searching for the
source of the phrase "Bridge of Reason"
(with caps) from the Big Book, pp. 53 and 56.

The only thing I can find on Google is references
to a website which is attacking the Mormon Joseph
Smith.

... Can anyone please clarify?

... God Bless you all...Old Ben, Tulsa OK

Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond
5126 S. St. Louis Av
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105
918 313 4059

- - - -

BIG BOOK pages 53 and 56:

p. 53 "Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted
with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue.
Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of
Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines
and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre
to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits.
Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We
were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But
somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we
had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile
and we did not like to lose our support."

p. 56 "Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came.
It crowded out all else:
'WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THERE IS NO GOD?'
This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his
knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a
conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and
through him with the certainty and majesty of a great
tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the
years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of
Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge
to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious com-
panionship with his Creator."
| 6321|6321|2010-02-10 14:54:06|mrpetesplace|Looking for websites with archival preservation information|
Does anyone have a favorite website or information
I can help make available for preservation of
archival material? I would like to provide this
information on my own site with links.

Does anyone have such information on their own
area's site to assist other members? Thank you.
| 6322|6305|2010-02-10 15:00:47|James Bliss|Re: AA history book from GSO?|
You can see a somewhat detailed timeline and the results of this
attempted history in Message 4951 of this group. It is located at:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4951

Jim

sally.kelly1941 wrote:
>
> Thanks to all who directed me to time lines
> for AA history. There is one submitted by a
> Michael S to the Fourth Dimension Meetings web
> site that appears to be the Arthur S timeline
> with updates.
>
> AA HISTORY BOOK: 1950 TO THE PRESENT
>
> It follows the progress, through GSC meetings,
> of a planned AA history book, covering the period
> since 1950, being prepared by GSO. The last
> mention on that time line of that effort is at
> the 45th GSC meeting in 1995.
>
> Who knows what became of that effort?
>
>
>
| 6323|6323|2010-02-10 15:09:00|Stockholm Fellowship|Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert|
EURYPAA 2010 Stockholm is currently seeking submissions for its Friday Night Sunset Concert!

If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for the lineup, please email Matt D at archiedohman@yahoo.com a link to your music, or send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship for the EURYPAA conference, so there will be no compensation -- However, a table will be provided to get info out about the acts performing.

Also, Matt is looking for some comedians, clowns, freaks in general, fire eaters, etc, to do entreacts while bands are setting up and breaking down.

Thanks,
Matt D
Co-Chair of Friday night entertainment for EURYPAA 2010
archiedohman@yahoo.com

Spread the Word! The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Convention will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. More information at www.EURYPAA.org/2010
| 6324|6290|2010-02-10 20:27:47|Arthur S|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
From Arthur S. and Shakey Mike

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)

Tony is right

The various window shade, placard and table-top displays of the Steps and
Traditions and Concepts are part of Conference-approved literature and
service material and have been listed in the GSO (US/Canada) catalog for
quite a number of years. They are the foundation of AA's 3 Legacies of
Recovery, Unity and Service. They are also frequently printed in book
appendices and inside the covers of pamphlets.

It would be a bit incongruous that Bill W would be against banners or
placards portraying the 36 spiritual principles he himself authored. In AA
Comes of Age, Bill W speaks very glowingly of the banner unveiled behind the
stage in Kiel Auditorium in 1955 showing the circle and triangle logo and
explaining its meaning (and the symbolism of the 3 Legacies).

It's been my observation that when members resort to the "newcomer tactic"
(i.e. invent or augur ways that newcomers will be affected by something -
usually negative) it's primarily due to the fact that they can't come up
with a common sense reason to be against something that they are against.

It might be useful to ask for a copy of any written material by Bill W
citing what the members claims he said. On the other hand Bill has probably
been cited on quite a few things he never said.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "shakey" <shakey1aa@yahoo.com>
(shakey1aa at yahoo.com)

see 5/11/2003 posting by charles k. photo's
incl of slogans appearing in 1953 grapevine

- - - -

Original message from "denise200305"
said:
>>
>>> This is a question about putting up banners in
>>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
>>> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>>>
>>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia ....
>>>
>>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
>>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
>>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
>>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>>>
>>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
>>> saying that he was against the banners.
>>>
>>> I have never read or heard this before. I have
>>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
>>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
>>> on this.
>>>
>>> Thanking you
>>> Kind Regards Denise
>>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
>>> Australia
>>>
| 6325|6323|2010-02-10 20:30:03|Bill Lash|Re: Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert|
This goes WAY outside of the parameters of
what's allowed to be sent out to this group.
Please read the guidelines again. Thank you.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Stockholm Fellowship
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 9:47 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert



EURYPAA 2010 Stockholm is currently seeking submissions for its Friday
Night Sunset Concert!

If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for
the lineup, please email Matt D at archiedohman@yahoo.com a link to your
music, or send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship
for the EURYPAA conference, so there will be no compensation -- However, a
table will be provided to get info out about the acts performing.

Also, Matt is looking for some comedians, clowns, freaks in general, fire
eaters, etc, to do entreacts while bands are setting up and breaking down.

Thanks,
Matt D
Co-Chair of Friday night entertainment for EURYPAA 2010
archiedohman@yahoo.com

Spread the Word! The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Convention
will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. More information at
www.EURYPAA.org/2010


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6326|6326|2010-02-10 20:31:08|nuevenueve@ymail.com|Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob|
Hello Group, just a fact to know:

In some Countries (mainly in those very
anthropologically linked to ancestral religious
and political leadership imagery), one finds
pictures of both Bill W. and Dr. Bob on the AA
meeting rooms' walls, or even their figurines
in carved wood.

Don't know what Bill & Bob would have thought
about this, but it just happens.

- - - -

From the moderator: compare Message 4497

"Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in
Alcoholics Anonymous"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4497

"I confess all my errors to the priest since it's
the most mortal sin to receive the Lord without
confessing all. Here too I have to confess all my
errors. Here they talk to us of good things.
When I came here and saw the pictures of the
founders, I thought, 'I've never seen a saint with
glasses before!'"

"His comments drew laughter from the audience.
Displaying the portraits of the founders above
the lectern echoed the placement of saints'
images in a Catholic church. For this man, his
A.A. colleagues were confessors and Bill W.
and Dr. Bob his saints."
| 6327|6321|2010-02-10 20:39:24|ricktompkins|Re: Looking for websites with archival preservation information|
Hello peter@aastuff,

Most all Area websites have a link to the AAWS site www.aa.org and its
extraordinary AA Archives portal.

The AA Archives at the General Service Office in NYC recommends the Society
of American Archivists. Located in Chicago, Illinois it is a massive
resource for conservation methods, ethics, and continued study. SAA also has
membership offers allowing discounted books and a wealth of information. SAA
is truly a fellowship for both professionals and any of us in the AA
Fellowship with the desire for preservation study and the knack for
conservation.

http://www.archivists.org

Conservation materials? The best source I have found over the years is
Gaylord Brothers out of Syracuse, New York. Out of about five companies, it
has the best prices for materials and its customer service is excellent.
Materials are relatively expensive but worthwhile, and it has basic books
and pamphlets about conservation methods.

http://www.gaylord.com

Here's a caveat: both these non-AA sites may not approve of posted links
from a 'private' website, and I'd consider them "advertisements" if I saw
them on an AA History web page.

On your own, though, anyone here should feel free to explore either site.
These two are my personal favorites!

Yours in fellowship,

Rick, Illinois
| 6328|6315|2010-02-10 20:56:58|J. Lobdell|Re: Dropkick Murphy's in Jack Mc.'s poem Drunks|
Dr. John (Dropkick) Murphy (yes, he was actually
a doctor) was a professional wrestler who came
back east to the Boston area from California ca
1939-40, and according to reminiscences by one
Eddie Costello (b. 1928) who watched him wrestle
in the early '40s, he happened "on the side" to
maintain a "dry-out" farm for alcoholics, I
believe at Bellows Farm in Massachusetts
(ad as early as 1942, property finally sold in
1973).

- - - -

From: "stevec012000" <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

Dropkick Murphy's was supposedly a rehab center
in oldtime Boston (I believe).

There is a Celtic Rock band named that as well.
Here is an article where they make small mention
of it:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/calendar/articles/2004/03/11/a_sold_out_homecoming_for_murphys/

- - - -

From the moderator, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropkick_Murphys

"Dropkick Murphys are an American Celtic punk/
hardcore punk band formed in Quincy, Massachusetts.
There are differing stories as to the origin of
the band's name. Former band member Marc Orrell
has said:"

"The Dropkick Murphy will come and get you if
you don't go to sleep tonight. It's a rehab
center, I think it's in Connecticut. I think
it was the guy who used to come around late at
night for all the drunks, like if you were too
drunk to drive home, he would come and get you
and put you in this hole that you couldn't get
out until you were sober enough, I don't know.
There's a bunch a stories, it's also a boxer,
a bunch of things, a rehab center in Connecticut,
grandparents used to scare kids with it."

- - - -

The original message quoted the lines from
the poem which said:

> We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take
> that would make us sick when we drank
> on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess
> or maybe they just shook their heads
> and sent us places like Dropkick Murphy's
> and when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde
> or maybe we lied to the doctors
> and they told us not to drink so much
> just drink like me
> and we tried
> and we died
| 6329|6320|2010-02-10 21:07:14|Shakey1aa@aol.com|Re: Bridge of Reason|
"Who am I to say there is no God." was said by John Henry Fitzhugh
Mayo. It's in the book on 2 different pages. Both He and Jimmy Burwell attended the same Episcopal Academy in Va. Fitz's father was a Episcopal minister educated in Princeton ministering in Cumberstone Md. Interestingly , One re-found his religion and one remained agnostic, but both were friends for life and stopped drinking using Alcoholics Anonymous. They are buried only feet apart from each other in that beautiful church in Cumberstone.

The following statement from the Albany Episcopal diocese explains the use of Reason. I think it ironic that the three legged stool is also used in AA.

Rethinking the Three-Legged Stool
by The Rev. Dr. Canon Christopher Brown

What makes Anglicanism unique? An earlier generation of Anglicans replied,
"Nothing at all. We are a 'bridge church' with a vocation to draw all
churches together. We hold nothing that is distinct and uniquely Anglican; our
beliefs and practices are simply those that are common to the universal
Church."

Today, one is more likely to hear something like this: "Anglicans do not
ascribe an absolute authority to Scripture. At the same time, Anglicanism
rejects the absolute claims of an infallible papacy. Anglicanism is distinct
in its reliance on the 'Three-Legged Stool of Scripture, Reason, and
Tradition."

Attributed to the 16th century English writer, Richard Hooker, the
"Three-Legged Stool" has become the essential feature of a distinct
"Anglican Ethos." Its popularity appears to lie in the manner in which it
functions to exclude any form of religious "absolutism." Neither the Bible, nor
the authority or the Church, nor the reasoning intellect can claim the last word,
but together they offer a balanced way to discern the will of God.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group
BTW there will be a AA Conference "Love and Service"
12-5 Feb 20,2010 in Perry Hall Baptist Church
3919 Schroeder Ave
Perry Hall MD 21128 USA(outside Baltimore MD)
The 1st portion 9-10 AM is History and Archives
| 6330|6290|2010-02-10 21:08:40|James Blair|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
Arthur wrote

> It would be a bit incongruous that Bill W would be against banners or
> placards portraying the 36 spiritual principles he himself authored.

The first banners on roll up window shades were produced in the New York
area and they were titled "Twelve Suggested Steps." Also, cards and other
local literature was printed in this manner. This was probably in the
1945-46 period.

Bill was opposed to the title "Twelve Suggested Steps" and twice delegates
to the General Service Conference put forward conference actions to change
the title from Twelve Steps to Twelve Suggested Steps and their proposed
actions were rejected.

I had read a couple of letters in the early GV's on this subject and I
brought it up with Frank M.(archivist) on a trip to GSO and he explained it
to me.

I have not been able to find any letters by Bill on the matter.

Jim
| 6331|6321|2010-02-14 15:12:44|Mike Breedlove|Re: Looking for websites with archival preservation information|
Peter and John,

Regarding archival preservation, institutions to explore include the Library of Congress (LOC), the Northeast Document Conservation Center (NEDCC), the Foundation of the American Institute for Conservation (FAIC), and the National Archives (NARA). Following is a selected list.

One of the best preservation sites is Preservation 101 - http://www.nedcc.org/education/online.php As the introduction states - Preservation 101 is a comprehensive self-paced online course that focuses on the preservation of paper collections and related formats. Participants will learn about the basics of preservation in the context of small and moderately-sized library or archival collections – how to identify deteriorated materials, how to properly care for collections, and how to set priorities for preservation. A primary goal of this course is to enable you to gather the information needed for a general preservation planning survey of your institution, and to that end, several tools have been devised to assist you in using this course effectively. Once on the Preservation 101 home page, be sure to click on “Before You Begin” for an introduction to the many facets of this program.

Related to it is the COOL site for professional conservators, but that provides much useful information for the lay person. It is located at -
http://cool.conservation-us.org/

The following Wikipedia site is a useful overview - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preservation_(library_and_archival_science)

The following syllabus contains several URL references and itself offers a good overview -
http://ischool.umd.edu/courses/2009/LBSC%20786%20Cybulski%20Fall%202008.pdf

Take care, Mike B,
Prattville, Alabama
Area One Archivist

----- Original Message -----
From: john wikelius
To: mike breedlove
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 05:07 PM
Subject: Fw: [AAHistoryLovers] Looking for websites with archival preservation information

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: mrpetesplace <peter@aastuff.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:31:30 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Looking for websites with archival preservation information


Does anyone have a favorite website or information
I can help make available for preservation of
archival material? I would like to provide this
information on my own site with links.

Does anyone have such information on their own
area's site to assist other members? Thank you.








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6332|6332|2010-02-14 15:15:37|jenny andrews|LSD and alcoholism treatment|
Letter to the British Medical Journal, 11 June 1966: The recent notoriety given to LSD in the press has led to its withdrawal by Sandoz from the market. In carefully selected cases we found the drug to be a helpful adjunct to psychotherapy. LSD can be made by any competent chemist, and is apparently being prepared by a few individuals for private distribution. Sandoz, up to the time of the drug's withdrawal, restricted its distribution to psychiatric institutions or carefully vetted individual psychiatrists. It will be unfortunate if LSD becomes available only for "kicks" and not for serious psychotherapeutic endeavour. (Signed by four doctors at West Park hospital, Epsom, Surrey UK).

One of the psychiatric institutions mentioned could have been Powick hospital, Worcestershire, UK, which reported favorable results when treating alcoholics and others with LSD - see www.idmu.co.uk/lsd.htm

Laurie A.

_________________________________________________________________
Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6333|6326|2010-02-14 15:18:34|nuevenueve@ymail.com|Studies of AA in different cultures|
Hello Group:

There's a study considering some sociological and cultural influences inside and around AA in several Countries/Cultures, it was published by The Wisconsin University Press and is entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous As A Mutual-Help: A Study In Eight Societies".

Could you please reccomend some other papers alike?

Thank you.
| 6334|6334|2010-02-14 15:20:07|Glenn Chesnut|Trysh Travis, new book, Language of the Heart: Cultural History|
"How recovery ideas migrated into the popular imagination"
 
An interview with Trysh Travis about her new book:

The Language of the Heart: A Cultural History of the Recovery Movement from Alcoholics Anonymous to Oprah Winfrey (Chapel Hill, North Carolina: University of North Carolina Press, 2009).
 
http://www.rorotoko.com/index.php/article/trysh_travis_book_interview_language_heart_cultural_history_recovery_moveme/
 
In a nutshell
 
My book is about that loosely defined cultural phenomenon known as "the recovery movement" -- an agglomeration of self-help groups and practices that have grown out of Alcoholics Anonymous since its founding in 1935. Although most people know someone who is or has been "in recovery," most people are also a little vague about what that means. That vagueness has allowed critics -- both conservative and progressive -- to caricature the recovery movement as narcissistic, banal, and apolitical. The Language of the Heart is intended to show that recovery is a diverse and evolving phenomenon whose complex history reflects the shifting ideas about gender and power that characterize contemporary America.
 
I've used recovery's print culture to narrate the story of its evolution from AA -- which began as an alcohol-focused, evangelical Christian, and resolutely masculine sub-culture -- to Oprah Winfrey, a self-proclaimed "food addict" and survivor of childhood sexual abuse who espouses a healing metaphysical spirituality to millions of women around the globe. Most recovery publications come from the margins of polite print culture. Rather than the products of professionally credentialed authors writing in the pages of esteemed journals, many of recovery's central ideas appeared first in obscure pamphlets, self-published tracts, and the textbooks of the addiction treatment industry. None of these are usually considered "serious" literature. But both the writing and the reading of such materials is an extremely serious matter for many recovering people.
 
The wide angle
 
Two phenomena led me to this project. A number of people close to me are recovering addicts of one sort or another, and when I attended meetings with them I noticed that books featured prominently in their meetings. Alcoholics Anonymous, written by one of AA's co-founders and usually called "the Big Book," was the most prominent. But people also carried with them daily devotional readers published by AA, Al-Anon (the organization for friends and families of alcoholics), and treatment centers like Hazelden.
 
That's not something you often see in depictions of AA or NA (Narcotics Anonymous) in film or on TV; there, a 12-Step meeting is only about people talking. But in the meetings I attended people often referred to their books as they talked, highlighted and annotated passages that mattered to them, and engaged in long debates over what a passage or a phrase might mean. As a literature teacher, these are habits I try to inculcate in my students (not usually with much success), and I wanted to find out how and why people in recovery were so intense about their reading.
 
At the same time that I was thinking about reading within 12-Step groups, I started to notice an increasing number of popular novels aimed at women that seemed to offer some version of recovery's central ideas. Powerlessness, forgiveness, the importance of self-love and of "keeping it simple"; these were all values that I was hearing espoused in meetings, and they were also popping up in mid-list fiction -- not only Oprah books, but "serious" titles like Michael Cunningham's The Hours and bestsellers like Rebecca Wells's Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood. This made me curious about how recovery ideas had migrated out of the church basements where meetings were held and into the popular imagination.
 
There's a lot at stake in that migration, I think. When a person goes to AA, declares, "I am powerless over alcohol," and reads daily from the Big Book to get instructions on how to live so as to remain sober, she has made a conscious decision to adopt a set of mental habits -- a worldview, if you want to call it that -- because she wants to change her life. Few people sit down with a novel thinking, "I want to get some lessons in how to change my life from this book." But the novels I was seeing had a powerful didactic streak. Through traditional sentimental plots involving mothers and children, they were urging readers not so much to quit using alcohol or drugs (though a few of them made that case in passing), but to quit demanding satisfaction from contemporary consumer capitalist American society, to admit they were powerless over their own lives.
 
There's something very Zen in such an admission, and that spiritual equilibrium is what many people in recovery are striving for. At the same time, as a feminist, I just couldn't get comfortable with powerlessness and "acceptance" as the paths to happiness for women in the aggregate. When taken out of the context of the individual pursuit of sobriety, recovery ideas seemed profoundly non-liberatory. This puzzled me: how and why did these ideas move from one context to another, and what was it about that changed context that gave them such a different valence? To answer those questions, I decided to write the book that became The Language of the Heart. Fortunately, as I wrote I got the opportunity to revise this fairly simple binary into a much more complex and multi-faceted picture.
 
A close-up
 
I've got two of these. The first is on pages 16-17, where I talk about what this book is not. Unlike most of the writings on the topic, The Language of the Heart is neither "for" nor "against" recovery, and it's important that people know that going in. Twelve-step groups like AA may work well for some people but not for others. The broader culture of recovery is in some ways insipid, banal, and politically reactionary, and in other ways profound, exciting, and progressive. Like any complex cultural phenomenon, recovery can't be easily boiled down to a "good" or a "bad" thing, and people who come to the book expecting such blanket praise or condemnation will be disappointed.
 
The second thing I hope a browsing reader would come across is the series of images on pages 89-91. These show the iconic figure that people in AA refer to as "the man on the bed," the de-toxing drunkard being visited by sober AAs and encouraged to try their program of recovery. The first image is a staged photograph that accompanied the 1941 Saturday Evening Post article that first brought AA national attention; the second is an illustration for an article in the AA magazine The Grapevine. That illustration was translated into stained glass by AA members in Akron, Ohio in 2001, and the final image is of their work, which hangs in the Akron AA archives.
 
This triptych of images is important to me for two reasons. The image of "the man on the bed" exemplifies both the vulnerability (represented by the man on the bed himself) and the mutuality (represented by the AAs who have come to offer him help) that together form the heart of 12-Step recovery. Mid-twentieth-century straight white masculinity did not value either of those traits particularly highly, and AA's most radical feature may be its injunction to its members (about 66% of whom are men) to give up the habits of "domination and dependence" that have shaped their lives and their drinking. The man on the bed is poised to renounce those habits or to slip back into them, and so his image appears frequently in AA's material culture. on sobriety medallions, bookmarks, murals, etc. That AAs continue to re-imagine the man on the bed in new media suggests that even as the organization has grown into a global phenomenon of millions of members, its radical
potential --  the possibility that individual men might transform their lives by embracing relationships of compassion, rather than competition -- remains alive.
 
Second, these images testify to the enormous help I received from recovering people while I was putting this book together. Few of my primary sources reside in standard repositories like libraries, museums, or professionally-maintained archives; instead, they came from private collections, offbeat literature dealers, and the archives maintained by recovering people interested in their own history. Their generosity in sharing these materials with me has been one of the greatest rewards of my research, and it is emblematized in these photos.
 
Lastly
 
One of the things I've become most aware of while working on this book is the degree to which cultural critics inside and outside of the academy write about phenomena that reflect and reinforce their own tastes and worldviews. There's a lot of writing out there about addiction, because addiction, despite its tragic dimension, retains a sheen of cool. Drug and alcohol use and abuse are dis-inhibiting; they de-stabilize social norms. Without too much effort, we can see them as heroic challenges to the staid routines of our uptight bourgeois lives.
 
Recovery culture, by contrast, is really square, both as aesthetics and as politics. One of the amateur authors I talk about drew inspiration from Lawrence Welk in many of his writings, for crying out loud -- and not in an ironic way! It's this squareness, I think, that has led critics to overlook the complexity of recovery -- its existence as a cultural formation with a genuine intellectual and social history that both reflects and helps to construct the larger economic, political, and psychic realities around it.
 
Personally, I would rather listen to hip-hop than to Lawrence Welk, and prefer reading high modernism to the personal stories in the Big Book. But that doesn't mean that the culture of people whose tastes don't run to transgressive or ironic texts is transparent or not worthy of scrutiny. Neither belletristic nor academic critics of the popular expend much energy on square cultures, however, except to occasionally talk about how awful they are. I wonder what other cultural formations besides recovery scholars of popular culture have simplified or overlooked in recent years simply because they don't give us aesthetic or intellectual pleasure.
| 6335|6335|2010-02-17 13:19:57|Harriet Dodd|The two alcoholic employees in To Employers|
Hello

We are studying the chapter in the Big Book called
To Employers at the moment.

Page 149 says "Today I own a little company.
There are two alcoholic employees, who produce
as much as five normal salesmen."

Do we know who these alcoholics were?

Many thanks,
Harriet
______________________________

From the moderator: it will be useful here to
go to the Message Board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

and do a search for all the messages using the
phrase "To Employers" (e.g. Message 5468) and
all the messages entitled "authorship of Chapter
10" (e.g. Messages 3280 and 3284).

The chapter To Employers begins on p. 136 with the statement that this chapter was written by "one member who has spent much of his life in big business." It is believed by most AA historians (although not one hundred percent of them) that this was Hank Parkhurst. See Hank's story "The Unbeliever" in the first edition of the Big Book.

If this was indeed Hank, then on p. 141 the company which the author of this chapter said he was employed by was Standard Oil of New Jersey.

Then on p. 149, the passage you are asking about says: "Today I own a little company," which would have to be a reference to the Honor Dealers Co., an automobile polish distributorship.

The company started out as just Hank Parkhurst and Bill Wilson. They hired Ruth Hock, a nonalcoholic, as their secretary. She typed up the various versions of the Big Book manuscript, and became AA's first secretary. Later on they hired Jim Burwell, another alcoholic, making four of them in all -- three alcoholics and one nonalcoholic.

See Jim Burwell's Big Book story "The Vicious Cycle," 3rd edit. page 246, "Bill and Hank had just taken over a small automobile polish company," and 3rd edit. page 248, "peddling off my polish samples."

In the passage you are asking about, on pp. 149-150, Hank was probably thinking of himself as "the boss," so the "two alcoholic employees" he was referring to would have been Bill Wilson and Jim Burwell.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6336|6336|2010-02-17 14:13:37|Michael|Earliest prison/behind the walls groups in Canada|
This is a question for those familiar with
Canadian AA History.

I believe the first prison group in Canada was
the Intramural Group at Dorchester Penitentiary
in New Brunswick, registered with GSO June 22,
1949. The Group is still active.

Does anyone know of an older group of this type
in Canada?

Thanks.

Michael
| 6337|6337|2010-02-17 14:23:00|Charlie C|Re: archival resources|
For some years I had, among other duties, that of being college archivist where I am a librarian, and I found Light Impressions an excellent source of archival quality supplies and information: http://www.lightimpressionsdirect.com/

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy
| 6338|6283|2010-02-17 14:41:24|Roy Levin|Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA|
It's Joe Hawk, not Joe Hutch.  The BigBookAwakening
website is run by my AA buddy Dan S. of Santa
Monica a former Joe H. sponsee, and indeed, he
does sell a set of CDs of Joe's salvation army
workshop back in 93.  I have these CDs myself.
Joe is an excellent presenter of the BigBook
based step process.

________________________________

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 7:32:00 PM
Subject: Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA

There is a set for sale at:

http://bigbookawakening.com/
| 6339|6326|2010-02-17 14:54:14|DudleyDobinson@aol.com|Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob|
Some countries should include the U.S.A.
I got sober in San Jose, Ca and the local
Alano Clubs had pictures of our founders on
the walls of meeting rooms. No further
comment needed!

Dudley - Birr, Ireland

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)

Personally, I detested the change on chips/tokens when they went from the triangle to a likeness of Bill & Bob (those metal/bronze tokens). I refuse to carry them. It smacks of idolatry worship that I can't abide.

I refuse to attend meetings where there are such depictions on the wall; even large framed pictures are disturbing to me.

I believe that any such representation on our literature, tokens, posters, etc, is simply wrong spirited. The fellowship is not Bill and/or Bob. Holding up one person as "god" simply defeats the whole purpose of our principles. Although I may refer to something one or the other has written, (such as the Steps), that does not mean I worship or idolize them as being infallible or god-like.

- - - -

Original message from <nuevenueve@ymail.com>
(nuevenueve at ymail.com)

In some Countries (mainly in those very
anthropologically linked to ancestral religious
and political leadership imagery), one finds
pictures of both Bill W. and Dr. Bob on the AA
meeting rooms' walls, or even their figurines
in carved wood.

Don't know what Bill & Bob would have thought
about this, but it just happens.

- - - -

From the moderator: compare Message 4497

"Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in
Alcoholics Anonymous"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4497

"I confess all my errors to the priest since it's
the most mortal sin to receive the Lord without
confessing all. Here too I have to confess all my
errors. Here they talk to us of good things.
When I came here and saw the pictures of the
founders, I thought, 'I've never seen a saint with
glasses before!'"

"His comments drew laughter from the audience.
Displaying the portraits of the founders above
the lectern echoed the placement of saints'
images in a Catholic church. For this man, his
A.A. colleagues were confessors and Bill W.
and Dr. Bob his saints."
| 6340|6290|2010-02-17 15:11:24|Arthur S|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
Jim,

Wall banners or placards were not distributed to groups by the NY Office
prior to the mid-1970s after Bill W had passed away. Individual groups may
have elected to do what they did on an individual basis.

A question posited at the 1974 conference was: "Could we have the Twelve
Steps and Twelve Traditions made up in a 2' x 4' or other size suitable for
hanging in meeting places?" The answer was "The matter will be discussed at
a meeting of AAWS." I believe they began production of them in 1975.

A question posited at the 1976 conference that: "There has been much
controversy over the alleged misuse of the word "suggested" in reference to
the Twelve Steps. Please give all examples of literature changes in wording
since the 1975 Conference-changes allegedly made only to insure uniformity
in reference to the Twelve Steps, "which are suggested as a program of
recovery." The answer was: "In the listing of the Twelve Steps, the word
"suggested" was removed from 14 pamphlets. In three pamphlets, it has not
been removed. For further information, contact the Conference secretary."

The 1976 Conference Committee on literature recommended that "Present
terminology used regarding the word "suggested" when referring to the Twelve
Steps is consistent with that employed in the Big Book, the "Twelve and
Twelve," and other A.A. literature and should remain as is."

Bill may have been opposed to injecting the word "suggested" into the title
of the Steps but he was not opposed to the notion of the Steps being viewed
as suggestions. In the 1953 final Conference report, Bill is quoted as
saying:: "Where variations of the Traditions are concerned, we've gone up
and down like a window shade. We even have a Tradition that guarantees the
right of any group to vary all of them, if they want to. Let's remember, we
are talking about suggested (underlined in the report for emphasis) steps
and traditions. And when we say each group is autonomous, that means that it
also has a right to be wrong."

Cheers

Arthur

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Bill W said and repeated:

There is no dogma.
The one theological proposition is a Power greater than oneself.
Even this concept is forced on no one.

Banners and slogans, plus people instructing others, are dogma.

- - - -

Original message no. 6330 from James Blair
<jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)

The first banners on roll up window shades were produced in the New York
area and they were titled "Twelve Suggested Steps." Also, cards and other
local literature was printed in this manner. This was probably in the
1945-46 period.

Bill was opposed to the title "Twelve Suggested Steps" and twice delegates
to the General Service Conference put forward conference actions to change
the title from Twelve Steps to Twelve Suggested Steps and their proposed
actions were rejected.

I had read a couple of letters in the early GV's on this subject and I
brought it up with Frank M.(archivist) on a trip to GSO and he explained it to me.

I have not been able to find any letters by Bill on the matter.

Jim
| 6341|6320|2010-02-17 19:57:56|J. Lobdell|Re: Bridge of Reason|
The Bridge of Reason occurs in [Moses] Maimonides, eight hundred (or so) years ago, and was picked up by Spengler in his magnum opus, The Decline of the West, greatly publicized in the 1930s. I'm not sure if "the Bridge of Reason leads to the Shore of Faith" is itself in Maimonides, but that's generally where the Bridge has been deemed to lead. My guess is any Big Book use comes from Maimonides through Spengler -- unless it's also in Lewis Browne, the one Jewish religious writer we know Bill read.
| 6342|6320|2010-02-17 20:37:29|corafinch|Re: Bridge of Reason|
It sounds something like what Charles Fillmore wrote in the "Manifestation" chapter of Christian Healing. Referring to the gulf between spiritual knowledge and the material manifestation, he wrote, "The bridge needed is the structure which thought builds." Fillmore and his wife Myrtle founded Unity Church, a Christian denomination within the New Thought movement which was such an important influence on AA.

However, other writers in the New Thought tradition used similar analogies, so Fillmore is certainly not the only potential source. Thomas Troward, in the Edinburgh lectures, spoke of the subconscious (which he considered to be amenable to conscious suggestion) as the bridge between individual minds and the higher thought or divine mind. Troward capitalized many of these terms, although Fillmore tended to leave them in lower case.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Ben Hammond wrote:
>
> I have been searching for the
> source of the phrase "Bridge of Reason"
> (with caps) from the Big Book, pp. 53 and 56.
>
| 6343|6290|2010-02-18 11:28:29|James Blair|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
Arthur wrote
> Wall banners or placards were not distributed to groups by the NY Office
> prior to the mid-1970s after Bill W had passed away. Individual groups may
> have elected to do what they did on an individual basis.


These were made up by N.Y. Intergroup on blinds as well they printed cards
with Twelve Suggested Steps on them.

Too bad Frank M. is gone b/c he explained the whole kerfuffle to me.
Jim
| 6344|6290|2010-02-18 11:30:16|James Blair|Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts|
SUBTOPIC: the "suggested" twelve steps

Arthur wrote
> A question posited at the 1976 conference that: "There has been much
> controversy over the alleged misuse of the word "suggested" in reference
> to
> the Twelve Steps. Please give all examples of literature changes in
> wording
> since the 1975 Conference-changes allegedly made only to insure uniformity
> in reference to the Twelve Steps, "which are suggested as a program of
> recovery." The answer was: "In the listing of the Twelve Steps, the word
> "suggested" was removed from 14 pamphlets. In three pamphlets, it has not
> been removed. For further information, contact the Conference secretary."


I found a 1983 note under literature which states, ""The word "suggested" in
the title of the Twelve Steps not be reinstated."'

This suggests to me that it once existed in the literature. I have a friend
who attended the 83' conference and I'll see if I can get in touch with him
and ask if he can shine any light on this.

Jim
| 6345|6326|2010-02-18 13:36:13|Cindy Miller|Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob|
From Cindy Miller, tomper, and Robert Stonebraker

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

How about the big Bill & Bob pictures displayed
on an easel at the large Founder's Day meetings?

> `�.��.���`�.�.���`�...�><((((�>


- - - -

From: "tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com> (tomper99 at yahoo.com)

Very nice portraits of Dr. Silkworth, Dr. Bob, and Bill W. were displayed on the wall at the first A.A. club in New York. Bill lived upstairs for awhile so apparently did not mind this.

Picture of this can be seen on the aa.org website on the timeline: http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/ Just plug in search word clubhouse.

Portraits of someone can just be a sign of respect and do not necessarily indicate idol worship of the individuals.

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

This photo is in the 1935-1944 section of the AA timeline, describing events which took place in 1940, and headed "The first New York clubhouse," with the phrase "Interior of the 24th Street Clubhouse, New York City" under the photo. But it is not clear that the photo which is posted on the timeline was actually taken back in 1940. Can anyone provide the date when the photo was taken?

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

In effort to interest members in AA history, our local clubhouse has hung large oil paintings of Bill & Bob, also fifteen 8" x 10" photos of the well known early movers and shakers of the 1930s and 1940s era.

Bob S., Richmond, IN
| 6346|6346|2010-02-19 14:52:24|Woodstock Singh|Big Book Study Guide by Ken W.|
I found this work a few years ago. It is easy
to find in Google search.

The author claims membership in AA beyond 50
years.

Does anyone know if the author is still among
the living?

Does anyone have any additional historical
information -- beyond what can already be
found by a Google search -- about the author's
background and how this work was written?

Jim S.
Pensacola, FL

______


Ken W., Study Guide to the AA Big Book

"A SPIRITUAL VIEW BEYOND THE LIMITS OF
TRADITIONAL RELIGION"
| 6347|6347|2010-02-19 14:55:53|Tom Hickcox|Commemorative Little Red Book|
Hazelden published a special edition of the Little Red Book in 1996
to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of its initial publication in
1946. It was supposed to be a more or less exact copy of the first
printing but somehow was copied from the 1949 printing, the unstated
fifth printing. I don't know how that happened, but I'm sure it is a
good story.

I noticed some time back that there are at least two versions of the
commemorative edition, the difference being the wording of Step
12. One has "Having had a spiritual experience as the result . . ."
as was in the original LRB [and the original Big Book] up until the
12th Printing. The other version has the current wording "Having had
a spiritual awakening as the result . . ."

I am aware that Webster did not use the exact wording of the Steps in
the early printings of the LRB. The early printings have ". . . God
as we understand Him" in Step 3 and sometimes in Step 11. This
perhaps is carryover from pamphlets, but I'm not interested in that
here. It will have to wait until later.

I thought perhaps the aberrant version [awakening] was the rarer, but
I came across another Commemorative Edition this week and it has awakening.

A friend was sent twenty copies of the book when it came out by Bill
Pittman who inscribed one of them to him. He tells me that book has
"experience" which indicates that the initial press run had that.

I am interested in knowing why there are two versions of this edition
and possibly also the relative abundance of each.

I plan on listing all the variations of the Coll-Webb printings of
the LRB unless there is a list already available.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
| 6348|6348|2010-02-21 13:40:10|Glenn Chesnut|Early AA beginners lessons|
EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS

History of the Beginners Classes: a Speech by Wally P.

Initial growth in Alcoholics Anonymous took place in Cleveland, Ohio. Clarence S. and the guys went out actively pursuing drunks and brought them off bar stools and street corners. We don't do that today, but we were doing it back then [late 1930's and 1940's]. And it worked!

In early 1940, when there were about 1,000 members of AA, more than half were from Cleveland. The book 'AA Comes of Age' talks about it on pages 20 and 21: "It was soon evident that a scheme of personal sponsorship would have to be devised for the new people. Each prospect was assigned an older AA, who visited him at his home or in the hospital, instructed him on AA principles, and conducted him to his first meeting." So even back in the early days the sponsor was taking the sponsee to meetings and getting together with him, rather than having the sponsee track the sponsor down. 'AA Comes of Age' continues by saying, "But in the face of many hundreds of pleas for help, the supply of elders could not possibly match the demand. Brand-new AA's, sober only a month or even a week, had to sponsor alcoholics still drying up in hospitals."

Because of this rapid growth in Cleveland, the idea of formalized classes started. In the book 'Dr. Bob and the Good Old-timers' it states on page 261, "Yes, Cleveland's results were the best. Their results were in fact so good that many a Clevelander really though AA had started there in the first place." Over half of the fellowship was from Cleveland up and through the mid-1940s.

During the winter of 1941 the Crawford Group (founded in February 1941) organized a separate group to help newcomers through the Steps. By the first issue of the Cleveland Central Bulletin, October 1942, the Crawford "Beginners' Class" was listed as a separate meeting. And in the second issue, in November 1942, there was an article entitled "Crawford Men's Training." This refers to possibly the first "Beginners' Class." "The Crawford Men's Training System has been highly acclaimed to many. Old AA's are asked to come to these meetings with or without new prospects, where new prospects will be given individual attention just as though they were in a hospital. Visiting a prospect in his home has always been handicapped by interruptions. But the prospect not daring to unburden himself completely for fear of being overheard by his relatives and by the AA's reticence for the same reason. Hospitalization without question is the ideal answer to where the message will be most effective; but the Crawford training plan strikes us as being the next best."

In the early days they weren't sure if you could get sober if you didn't go to treatment. That was one of the early questions -- could a person get sober without going to a three or five-day detox. Because it was during that detox that sometimes ten and twenty AA members came to visit the new person. And each hour the prospect was awake he would hear someone's story -- over and over again. And something gelled during these hospital stays. But they were trying to do it outside of the hospital and this is where the first of the classes came from.

These classes continued at Euclid Avenue Meeting Hall through June 1943 and at that time the Central Bulletin announced a second session -- "The Miles Training Meeting." The bulletin read, "The Miles Group reports they have enjoyed unusual success with their training meetings. The newcomer is not permitted to attend a regular AA meeting until he has been given a thorough knowledge of the work." The newcomer couldn't go to a meeting until he completed the training session. A lot of places didn't allow you to go to AA meetings until you had taken the four classes. You didn't just sit there -- you had already completed the steps when you went to your first AA meeting. "From 15 to 20 participate at each training meeting and new members are thoroughly indoctrinated."

These meetings grew and spread and visitors came from out of town and out of state.

In 1943 the Northwest Group in Detroit, Michigan standardized the classes into four sessions. "In June 1943 a group of members proposed the idea of a separate discussion meeting to more advantageously present the Twelve Steps of the recovery program to the new affiliates. The decision was made to hold a Closed Meeting for alcoholics only for this purpose. The first discussion meeting of the Northwest Group was held on Monday night June 14, 1943 and has been held every Monday night without exception thereafter (as of 1948). A plan of presentation of the Twelve Steps of the recovery program was developed at this meeting. The plan consisted of dividing the Twelve Steps into four categories for easier study." The divisions were:

1. The Admission
2. Spiritual
3. Restitution and Inventory
4. Working and the message

"Each division came to be discussed on each succeeding Monday night in rotation This method was so successful that it was adopted first by other groups in Detroit and then throughout the United States.

Finally the format was published in its entirety by the Washington, DC Group in a pamphlet entitled 'An interpretation of our Twelve Steps." The first pamphlet was published in 1944 and contains the following introduction: "Meetings are held for the purpose of aquatinting both the old and new members with the Twelve Steps on which our Program is based. So that all Twelve Steps may be covered in a minimum of time they are divided into four classifications. One evening each week will be devoted to each of the four subdivisions. Thus, in one month a new man can get the bases of our Twelve Suggested Steps." This pamphlet was reproduced many times in Washington, DC and then throughout the country and is even still being printed in some areas today.

In the Fall of 1944, a copy of the Washington, DC pamphlet reached Barry C. -- one of the AA pioneers in Minneapolis. He wrote a letter to the New York headquarters requesting permission to distribute the pamphlet. We talk about "Conference Approved Literature" today; but this is the way the Fellowship operated back then. This is a letter from Bobby B., Bill W.'s secretary, printed on "Alcoholic Foundation" stationary. This is what she says:

"The Washington pamphlet, like the new Cleveland one, and a host of others, are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove these local pieces. By that I mean the Foundation feels that each group is entitled to write up their own 'can opener' and to let it stand on it's own merits. All of them have their good points and very few have caused any controversy. But in all things of a local nature we keep hands off -- either pro or con. Frankly, I haven't had the time to more than glance at the Washington booklet, but I've heard some favorable comments about it. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't some good points."

And then in 1945 the AA Grapevine printed three articles on the "Beginners' Classes." The first one was published in June and it described how the classes were conducted in St. Louis, Missouri. This has to do with the "education plan" and they called it the Wilson Club. "One of the four St. Louis AA groups is now using a very satisfactory method of educating prospects and new members. It has done much to reduce the number of 'slippers' among new members. In brief it is somewhat as follows: Each new prospect is asked to attend four successive Thursday night meetings. Each one of which is devoted to helping the new man learn something about Alcoholics Anonymous, it's founding and the way it works. The new man is told something about the book and how this particular group functions. Wilson Club members are not considered full active members of AA until they've attended these four educational meetings."

In the September 1945 issue of the Grapevine the Geniuses Group in Rochester, NY explained their format for taking newcomers through the Steps. The title of the article was "Rochester Prepares Novices for Group Participation." This is how they perceived the recovery process to operate most efficiently: "It has been our observation that bringing men [and woman] into the group indiscriminately and without adequate preliminary training and information can be a source of considerable grief and a cause of great harm to the general moral of the group itself. We feel that unless a man, after a course of instruction and an intelligent presentation of the case for the AA life, has accepted it without any reservation he should not be included in group membership. When the sponsors feel that a novice has a fair working knowledge of AA's objectives and sufficient grasp of it's fundamentals then he is brought to his first group meeting. Then he listens to four successive talks based on the Twelve Steps and Four Absolutes. They are twenty-minute talks given by the older members of the group and the Steps for convenience and brevity are divided into four sections. The first three Steps constitute the text of the first talk; the next four the second; the next four the third; and the last Step is considered to be entitled a full evening's discussion by itself." This group taught the Steps in order rather than in segments.

In December 1945, the St. Paul, Minnesota Group wrote a full-page description of the "Beginners' Meetings." The description of their four one-hour classes was: "New members are urged to attend all the sessions in the proper order. At every meeting the three objectives of AA are kept before the group: to obtain and to recover from those things which caused us to drink and to help others who want what we have."

In 1945 Barry C., of Minneapolis, received a letter from one of the members from the Peoria, Illinois Group. In the letter, the writer, Bud, describes the efforts of Peoria, Illinois in regarding the "Beginners' Classes." "In my usual slow and cautious matter I proceeded to sell the Peoria Group on the Nicollet Group. Tomorrow night we all meet to vote the adoption of our bylaws slightly altered to fit local conditions." (No one taught the classes the same way. They were taught based on a group conscience.) "Sunday afternoon at 4:30 our first class in the Twelve Steps begins. We're all attending the first series of classes so we'll all be on an even footing. We anticipate on losing some fare-weather AA hangers-on in the elimination automatically imposed by the rule that these classes must be attended. This elimination we anticipate with a "we" feeling of suppressed pleasure. It is much as we are all extremely fed up with running a free drunk taxi and sobering-up service."

Then sometime prior to 1946 in Akron, Ohio the Akron Group started publishing four pamphlets on the AA Program. They were written by Ed W. [**see note at the end**] at the direction of Dr. Bob, one of the co-founders of AA. Dr. Bob wanted some "blue-collar" pamphlets for the Fellowship. In one of the pamphlets, "A Guide to the Twelve Steps", it reads: "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous is intended to be a simple, short and concise interpretation of the rules for sober living as compiled by the earliest members of the organization. The writers and editors are members of the Akron, Ohio Group where Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in 1935. Most of the ideas and explanations were brought out in a series of instruction classes conducted by veteran members of the group." So this proves the classes were being taught in Akron, Ohio.

There are a lot of places they were being taught.

Then the classes were actually formalized into a book called "The Little Red Book" in 1946. The inscription on the inside cover says, "The material in this Little Red Book is an outgrowth of a series of notes originally prepared for Twelve Step instruction to AA beginners." So we know the "Little Red Book" came out of these four one-hour classes also. "Few books have had greater record for humble service than the Little Red Book upon which so many members have cut their AA teeth." A manuscript drawn up from these notes was sent to Dr. Bob at the request of USA and Canadian members. He approved the manuscript and the book was published in 1946. Dr. Bob approved of "The Little Red Book." So Dr. Bob not only authorized the publication of the Akron pamphlets, he also endorsed "The Little Red Book," both of which were products of the "Beginners' Classes."

Even our first AA group handbook, originally entitled "A Handbook for the Secretary", published by the Alcoholic Foundation in 1950, had a section on the "Beginners' Classes."

At the time there were only three types of meetings: Open Speaker Meetings, Closed Discussion Meetings, and Beginners' Meetings. There was no such thing as an Open Discussion Meeting in the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous. In the Beginners' Meetings, which are described in the Meeting section, the handbook states: "In larger metropolitan areas a special type of meeting for newcomers to AA is proved extremely successful. Usually staged for a half-hour prior to an open meeting, this meeting features an interpretation of AA usually by an older member presented in terms designed to make the program clear to the new member.

(Note: The Chicago Group held their "Beginners' Classes" a half-hour prior to their Open Meeting. When publishing the group handbook, the New York office only described Chicago's format.)

After the speaker's presentation the meeting is thrown open to questions." In each of the four one-hour classes there was always a session for questions afterwards. "Occasionally, the AA story is presented by more than one speaker. The emphasis remains exclusively on the newcomer and his problem."

The four one-hour classes were taught all over the country. Some other cities include Oklahoma City, Miami Florida, and Phoenix Arizona.

If these classes were so important, then what happened to them? Most of the people who have joined AA in the last twenty-five years or so have never even heard of them. Ruth R., an old-timer in Miami Florida, who came into AA in 1953, gave some insight into the demise of the "Beginners' Classes." "At that time the classes were being conducted at the Alana Club in Miami -- two books were used: "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Big Book) and the "Little Red Book." Jim and Dora H., Florida AA pioneers, were enthusiastic supporters and they helped organize several of the classes and served as instructors." (Note: Dora was a Panel 7 Delegate to the General Service Office.) Ruth recalled that the classes were discontinued in the mid-1950s as the result of the publication of the book "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" by Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. In the Miami area the "Twelve and Twelve" replaced both the "Big Book" and the "Little Red Book" and "Step Studies" replaced the "Beginners' Classes." In the process, the period for taking the Steps was expanded and modified from 4 weeks to somewhere in between 12 and 16 weeks. The Fourth Step inventory was modified and became a much more laborious and detailed procedure. What was originally conceived as a very simple program, which took a few hours to complete, evolved into a complicated and confusing undertaking requiring several months.

Studying the Steps is not the same as taking the Steps. In the "Beginners' Classes" you take the steps. The Big Book says, "Here are the steps we took" not "here are the steps we read and talked about." The AA pioneers proved that action, not knowledge, produced the spiritual awakening that resulted in recovery from alcoholism. On page 88, the authors of the Big Book wrote, "It works -- it really does. We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. Faith without works is dead."

This concludes the description of the "Beginners' Classes" during Wally P.'s talk in Mesa, Arizona on November 23, 1996. Wally P. is an AA Archivist from Tucson, Arizona. For two years he researched and studied areas of the country that held "Beginners' Classes." He then started teaching the classes under the guidance of his sponsor who took the classes in 1953 and never drank again. In March of 1996 Wally mentioned the "Beginners' Classes" as part of his historical presentation at the Wilson House in East Dorset, Vermont. Wally then wrote and published a book entitled "Back to Basics: The Alcoholics Anonymous Beginners' Classes -- Take all 12 Steps in Four One-Hour Sessions."
________________________________________

**SOURCES**

http://stepstudy.org/2008/05/21/history-of-the-beginners-classes-a-speech-by-wally-p/

See also AAHistoryLovers Message 1627 from Bill Lash for another copy of this talk: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1627
________________________________________

**THE AUTHOR OF THE AKRON PAMPHLETS**
Perhaps not Ed W., but Evan W. or Irvin W.

See Message #2469 from jayaa82@aol.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2469

"The Akron Pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob but written by Evan W. an Akron member who had been a newspaper writer. Dr. Bob believed that the Big Book might be too complicated for the "blue collar" member or others with little education. The pamphlets are still printed and distributed by the Akron Intergroup. Jay M."

But see First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc

There is no "Ed W." on that list, but there is no "Evan W." mentioned either. Could "Evan W." be the man referred to as Irvin Whiteman in that list? The names Irvin, Irwin, and so on, were regularly confused in the AA oral tradition -- see for example all the different spellings of Irwin Meyerson's name.
| 6349|6349|2010-02-21 14:05:51|BobR|Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill|
About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
transferred it to CD.

Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
so we can fill in the missing pieces?

This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
kind of copyright on it still in effect?
| 6350|6320|2010-02-21 14:11:01|corafinch|Re: Bridge of Reason|
I couldn't seem to find the Maimonides reference (although Maimonides is known for bridging science and faith), and the sense in which Spengler used the phrase did not seem to expand on the Big Book meaning. This passage from Systematic Theology (1886) by Augustus Hopkins Strong is somewhat interesting. It is part of a footnote on pp 87-8. Strong has been discussing the various "proofs" for the existence of God:

"The three forms of proof already mentioned, Cosmological, Teleological and Anthropological may be likened to the three arches of a bridge over a wide and rushing river. The bridge has only two defects but these defects are very serious. First is that one cannot get on the bridge; the end toward the outer bank is wholly lacking; the bridge of logical argument cannot be entered upon except by assuming the validity of logical processes; this assumption takes for granted at the outset the existence of a God who has made our faculties to act correctly; we get on the bridge, not by logical processes but only by a leap of intuition; and by assuming at the beginning the very thing which we set out to prove. The second deficiency of the so-called bridge of argument is that when one has gotten on he can never get off. The connection with the further bank is also lacking. All the premises from which we argue being finite, we are warranted in drawing only a finite conclusion. Argument cannot reach the Infinite, and only an infinite being can be called God.

"We can get off from our logical bridge not by logical process but only by another and final leap of intuition and by once more assuming the existence of the infinite Being we had so vainly sought to reach by mere argument. The process seems to be referred to in Job 11:7, 'Canst though by searching find out God? Canst thou find out the almighty unto perfection?'"

I'm not implying the the Big Book authors were reading this book, but the allegory seems similar, and may have made it to them by way of sermons or lectures.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> The Bridge of Reason occurs in [Moses] Maimonides, eight hundred (or so) years ago, and was picked up by Spengler in his magnum opus, The Decline of the West, greatly publicized in the 1930s. I'm not sure if "the Bridge of Reason leads to the Shore of Faith" is itself in Maimonides, but that's generally where the Bridge has been deemed to lead. My guess is any Big Book use comes from Maimonides through Spengler -- unless it's also in Lewis Browne, the one Jewish religious writer we know Bill read.
>
| 6351|6351|2010-02-21 14:33:13|russmuller@sbcglobal.net|Father Ralph Pfau-San Juan Batista-Calif|
I was wondering if anyone has any history on
a retreat that was held annually by Father Ralph Pfau (1947)
I think it started in San Juan Batista, CA.

There has to be some people who have
attended in years past who can tell a story
or two!!! If you have ever attended this retreat and
have a story to tell, big or small, please
pass it on!

"My Retreat Booklet and the way of the Cross"

Chuck Chammberlin attended in 1952 -- John Gray
from Santa Cruz, California, was the Group Leader
for many years.

Thanks! Russ Muller russmuller@sbcglobal.net
(russmuller at sbcglobal.net)
| 6352|6346|2010-02-22 10:58:22|Cherie' H.|Re: Big Book Study Guide by Ken W.|
A few years ago I was in direct email communication
with Ken. He was a member of AAFriendsWorldWide
online AA group for some time. That is where I met
him. He has also been a member of other online AA
groups.

As far as I know is still alive, although it has
been some time since I was in contact with him.

Perhaps he is reading this and might respond?

--
AA Love and Hugs
Cherie'
Warren, MI
DOS 04/26/01
| 6353|6353|2010-02-23 12:58:06|Bill Lash|Two AA History Presentations|
The Primary Purpose Group of Lynbrook NY presents:
An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of Early AA
with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
Saturday, March 13, 2010, 1:00PM – 5:00PM
Lynbrook Baptist Church
225 Earle Avenue, Lynbrook, NY 11563
Meeting place of the Primary Purpose Group of Lynbrook NY.
Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman, Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves,
Ebby T., Bill & Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents, Lois W.'s
parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the OH/VT places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill
D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia, all the N.Y./N.J. places, Charlie
Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early literature was published, the
Rockefeller dinner, gravesites, etc.
It's very exciting, combining the stories with the images!!
Liberal refreshments will be provided.
For more information please visit www.ppglynbrook.net or call Derrick at
516-317-9237.
For the flyer go to www.justloveaudio.com & click on "Events".
**********
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY WEEKEND III
“THE OXFORD GROUP ROOTS OF A.A.”
with Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA
and
Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
August 20 – 22, 2010
At The Wilson House
(where Bill W. was born)
378 Village Street
East Dorset, VT 05253

Jay S. is an Oxford Group historian. He will be doing three presentations –
“The Early Roots of A.A.: The Akron Miracle”, “Varieties of Spiritual
Experience: James, Jung, Shoemaker & You”, and “What Ever Happened to the
Oxford Group?”.

Barefoot Bill has been studying and collecting AA history since 1994. He
will be doing a presentation on “Bill W. & Dr. Bob’s Oxford Group
Experience” and another one on “Oxford Group Meditation – How To Listen To
God”.

Schedule:
Friday night 8/20/10 9:00 to 10:45pm – Oxford Group (Moral Re-Armament)
movie
Saturday morning 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:20am – The Early Roots of A.A.: The
Akron Miracle
Saturday morning 8/21/10 10:40 to 11:55am – Bill W. & Dr. Bob’s Oxford Group
Experience
Saturday afternoon 8/21/10 1:00 to 2:20pm – Varieties of Spiritual
Experience: James,
Jung, Shoemaker & You
Saturday night 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:45pm – Oxford Group (Moral Re-Armament)
movie
Sunday morning 8/22/10 9:00 to 10:20am – Oxford Group Meditation: How To
Listen To God
Sunday morning 8/22/10 10:40 to 11:55am – What Ever Happened to the Oxford
Group?

For weekend and overnight reservations please call the Wilson House at
802-362-5524.
For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell).
Audio CD’s of this event provided by Just Love Audio.
For the flyer go to www.justloveaudio.com & click on "Events".
| 6354|6349|2010-02-23 13:41:08|Charles Knapp|Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill|
Hello Group,

I believe I have some history on these records. A few years ago, I
purchased an audio CD of what was being titled "Bill W.'s 1st Recorded
Talk." It said the talk was made in 1947, but gave no other information. When I listened to it I heard a quote that I recognized. The quote was:

"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A. program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world. So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead, the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy -- the living grace of God."

I remember this from the 2005 International Convention in Toronto
because I saw this quote on one of the GSO Archives displays panels. Also from that CD I recognized the talk Bill was giving was copied from a phonograph record. In October 2006 while in New York doing some research at the GSO Archives, I was able to piece together some history of this recording. At that time I was the Archivist for Area 9 in Southern Californian and I found that it had a Southern California connection other than just the location of his talk.

On Wednesday April 9, 1947, Bill came to Los Angeles and gave a talk at a big open meeting. After the meeting a member from Los Angeles, who was in the recording business, suggested to Bill that he should record his talks. This member offered to provide Bill and AA his recording services, for a small fee, of course. Sometime during that weekend, Bill shortened his talk and he made a wire recording and this recording was pressed into a 16 inch record. Bill took the recording back to New York and found a record company there that
would press records as needed. The member in Los Angeles wanted to press a couple hundred records at one time, but Bill thought this would put an unnecessary financial burden on the New York Office. Beside he didn't think they would sell that many records.

Bill found a company in New York, without ties to AA, called Rockhill
Radio Company, on fiftith Street, that was willing to press one record at a time or as many at one time as need. This way the New York office would not have to fork out a lot of money all at once or keep track of any inventory. Bill even negotiated a deal where the New York office would take all the orders and handle the money from sales and this reduced the selling price of the records even more.

We do not know the member's name from Los Angeles or the company he worked for. However, in the file in New York where I found this
information was a yellowed business card from Specialty Records,
2719 W 7th Street Los Angeles with the name "Art" handwritten on the back. After some searching I found that Art Rupe started Specialty Records in LA in 1946, but it is not clear if Art was the member that made the suggestion or just someone the AA member put Bill in touch with.

In a letter to the group secretaries from the New York office dated May 6, 1947 it offers these records for sale for $3.30 including shipping. Not everyone had a phonograph that could play 16 inch records so the talk was made on two 12 inch records, having a playing time of about 15 minutes (15 minutes is a very short talk for Bill).

In this letter it stated that Bill was very reluctant on make any kind of records, but finally gave in.

If anyone has a photo of these 2 records, I would love to have a copy for Area 9's file.

hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin


________________________________
From: BobR <rriley9945@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 3:15:40 PM
Subject: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill

About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
transferred it to CD.

Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
so we can fill in the missing pieces?

This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
kind of copyright on it still in effect?
| 6355|6349|2010-02-24 20:57:28|shakey|Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill|
I own a red record called Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill
from Rockhill Recording with an address on the label of 10 east 50th street new york city.
ELdorado5-1860. it is a 78 record.
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "BobR" wrote:
>
> About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
> County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
> Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
> transferred it to CD.
>
> Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
> two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
> Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
> so we can fill in the missing pieces?
>
> This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
> kind of copyright on it still in effect?
>
| 6356|6356|2010-02-24 20:59:42|bludahlia2003|Documentary film request - Miami Convention 1970|
We are producing a documentary film on the history of AA. We have had a lot of help from AA historians and other archives, but at this point, we are actively looking for photos or home movies of the 1970 AA Convention, held at the Fountainebleau Hotel in Miami. Ideally, we'd love to have a shot of Bill W at the podium, giving his closing talk. However, any shots of the convention – signage, banners, a view from the back of the auditorium etc – would be very helpful. We are aware of and will be observing the 11th tradition. Thanks for any help you can give us.

My e-mail address is <bludahlia2003@yahoo.com>
(bludahlia2003 at yahoo.com)
| 6357|6349|2010-02-24 20:59:49|aalogsdon@aol.com|Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill|
I have these two recordings framed as well as a third recording made by same company titled MILESTONES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS by Bill. The third recording appears to be same vintage, all are red. How can I help you.





-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 10:58 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill




Hello Group,

I believe I have some history on these records. A few years ago, I
purchased an audio CD of what was being titled "Bill W.'s 1st Recorded
Talk." It said the talk was made in 1947, but gave no other information. When I listened to it I heard a quote that I recognized. The quote was:

"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A. program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world. So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead, the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy -- the living grace of God."

I remember this from the 2005 International Convention in Toronto
because I saw this quote on one of the GSO Archives displays panels. Also from that CD I recognized the talk Bill was giving was copied from a phonograph record. In October 2006 while in New York doing some research at the GSO Archives, I was able to piece together some history of this recording. At that time I was the Archivist for Area 9 in Southern Californian and I found that it had a Southern California connection other than just the location of his talk.

On Wednesday April 9, 1947, Bill came to Los Angeles and gave a talk at a big open meeting. After the meeting a member from Los Angeles, who was in the recording business, suggested to Bill that he should record his talks. This member offered to provide Bill and AA his recording services, for a small fee, of course. Sometime during that weekend, Bill shortened his talk and he made a wire recording and this recording was pressed into a 16 inch record. Bill took the recording back to New York and found a record company there that
would press records as needed. The member in Los Angeles wanted to press a couple hundred records at one time, but Bill thought this would put an unnecessary financial burden on the New York Office. Beside he didn't think they would sell that many records.

Bill found a company in New York, without ties to AA, called Rockhill
Radio Company, on fiftith Street, that was willing to press one record at a time or as many at one time as need. This way the New York office would not have to fork out a lot of money all at once or keep track of any inventory. Bill even negotiated a deal where the New York office would take all the orders and handle the money from sales and this reduced the selling price of the records even more.

We do not know the member's name from Los Angeles or the company he worked for. However, in the file in New York where I found this
information was a yellowed business card from Specialty Records,
2719 W 7th Street Los Angeles with the name "Art" handwritten on the back. After some searching I found that Art Rupe started Specialty Records in LA in 1946, but it is not clear if Art was the member that made the suggestion or just someone the AA member put Bill in touch with.

In a letter to the group secretaries from the New York office dated May 6, 1947 it offers these records for sale for $3.30 including shipping. Not everyone had a phonograph that could play 16 inch records so the talk was made on two 12 inch records, having a playing time of about 15 minutes (15 minutes is a very short talk for Bill).

In this letter it stated that Bill was very reluctant on make any kind of records, but finally gave in.

If anyone has a photo of these 2 records, I would love to have a copy for Area 9's file.

hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin


________________________________
From: BobR <rriley9945@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 3:15:40 PM
Subject: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill

About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
transferred it to CD.

Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
so we can fill in the missing pieces?

This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
kind of copyright on it still in effect?








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6358|6358|2010-03-01 11:16:34|Tom Hickcox|Author's Notes in early Little Red Books, 1946 to 1953|
Recently, I was reading on Hindsfoot.org
<http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html> about the Author's Note in the 1946
and 1949 printings of the Little Red Book, or, more precisely, "The
Twelve Steps" and "The Little Red Book."

I thought it might be a good idea to compare the Author's Notes from
the early printings of the Little Red Book. All the versions were
taken from volumes in my collection.

The Author's Note in the 1946 printing goes:

"This book was originally prepared as a series of notes for
Twelve-step Discussion meetings for new A.A. members. It proved to
be very effective and helpful. Many groups adopted it, using
mimeographed copies. The demand for this interpretation in book form
from both individuals and groups made printing advisable." This is
eight lines long in the book.

The next Author's Note is from what must be the first 1947 printing:

"The Interpretation of the 12 steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous
program was prepared from a series of notes originally used in Twelve
Step discussion meetings for new A.A. members. It proved to be very
effective and helpful. Many groups adopted it, using mimeographed
copies. The demand for the Interpretation in book form from both
individuals and groups made printing advisable." This version is ten
lines long in the book.

The Author's Note for the stated Second Printing, January 1947:

"This book was originally prepared as a series of notes for the
instruction of new A.A. members and as a source of ideas for
Twelve-step Discussion meetings. It proved helpful to both new and
old members, seeming to create great interest in the simple A.A.
fundamentals they too often missed in first reading the Big Book
'ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.' It sent them back to the Big Book and kept
them reading it thus establishing a solidarity of understanding of
the A.A. Program that was good for the group as a whole. Many groups
adopted it using mimeographed copies. The demand for this
interpretation in book form from both individuals and groups made
printing advisable." Again a single paragraph but seventeen lines long.

The Author's Note for the unstated Third Printing, 1947:

"The material in this little red book is an outgrowth of a series of
notes originally prepared for '12-Steps' instruction to A.A.
beginners and as a source of ideas for A.A. discussion meetings. Its
distribution is founded on a desire to 'Carry the Message' in
recognition of our return to sane living after alcoholism has made
life all but impossible.

"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new
members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery
Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an
outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the
inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in
their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' as a way of life.

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship that has been good
for the groups as a whole. Consequently, there has been a closer
adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and application of
its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a noticeable reduction
in slips among our members." Note that this is three paragraphs
long and very expanded.

The Author's Note for the unstated Fourth Printing, 1948, is exactly
the same as the unstated Third Printing.

The title on the half-title pages for the preceding books is "The
Twelve Steps."

The Author's Note for the unstated Fifth Printing, 1949, is the same
for the first two paragraphs. However, the third paragraph is different:

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought
a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and
application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a
noticeable reduction in slips among our members."

I would note that the Author's Note in both printings of the 50th
Anniversary Edition has a typo in the third paragraph. It has "with"
rather than "within" in the first sentence of that paragraph.

The Author's Note for the unstated Sixth Printing, 1950:

"The little (sic) Red Book evolved from a series of notes originally
prepared for 'Twelve Step' suggestions to A.A. beginners. It lends
supplementary aid to the study of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,'
and contains many helpful topics for discussion meetings. Its
distribution is prompted by a desire to 'Carry the Message to
Alcoholics' in appreciation of our reprieve from alcoholic death.

"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new
members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery
Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an
outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the
inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in
their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' as a way of life.

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought
a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and
application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a much
higher ratio of sobriety among our members."

It refers to the book as "The little Red Book" and changes the second
half of the first paragraph, leaving the second paragraph
unchanged. The last phrase of the third paragraph is changed from "a
noticeable reduction in slips among our members" to "a much higher
ratio of sobriety among our members." I will leave it to the experts
to rationalize the change.

The Author's Note to the Seventh Printing, 1951, is identical to the
Author's Note for the Sixth Printing.

The Author's Note to the Eighth Printing, 1952, is slightly changed
from the Author's Note for the Sixth and Seventh:

"The Little Red Book evolved from a series of notes originally
prepared for 'Twelve Step' suggestions to A.A. beginners. It aids in
the study of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and contains many
helpful topics for discussion meetings. Its distribution is prompted
by a desire to 'Carry the Message to Alcoholics' in appreciation of
our daily reprieve from alcoholic death.

"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new
members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery
Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an
outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the
inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in
their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' As a Way of
Life for recovery from alcoholism.

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought
a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and
application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a much
higher ratio of sobriety among our members.

"It is our hope that this Little Red Book may open new avenues of
thought and be helpful to the individual A.A. member in arriving at
his own successful interpretation of the program." "Little" is
capitalized in the first sentence, the second sentence is changed, ".
. .recovery from alcoholism" is added to the last sentence of the
second paragraph, and a fourth paragraph is added.

The Author's Note to the Ninth Printing, 1953 is exactly the same as
that for the Eighth.

This is a good stopping point. There wasn't an unstated Tenth
Printing and printing numbers were assigned starting with the
Eleventh Printing. I would note, though, that we have ten different
printings here, all different in some respect. Maybe Coll-Webb knew
how to count after all!

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
| 6359|6359|2010-03-01 11:57:38|pamelafro88|Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps|
have just come across a reference in Australian AA archives that in 1947 '1000 copies "Interpretations the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone know what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any copies still available?

- - - -

From the moderator:

If the date is 1947, it can't be the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions book that Bill Wilson published in 1953, also a price of five pence sounds much too low for that big a book. (This is assuming that five pence Australian would have been roughly equivalent to five pence in British pounds sterling, prior to the introduction of the modern Australian decimal currency in 1966.)

The most commonly used pamphlet (by far) in AA around that time was one whose formal title was "Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps." It had been printed by local AA groups all over the United States starting from around 1943. It was referred to in different parts of the United States by various names: the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide, the Washington DC Pamphlet, the Detroit Pamphlet, and so on. The pamphlets cost 40 cents each from the Detroit intergroup office several years ago, but would have been much cheaper back in 1947. For an introduction to it, and a copy of it, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html
and so on.

Another possibility, though probably less likely, would be the pamphlet entitled "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous" which was written and printed in Akron, Ohio at some point during the 1940's. For a copy of it, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/Akr12.html

The Texas Pamphlet was written in Houston, Texas in 1940 but it would seem odd to refer to it as "Interpretations the Twelve Steps." Nevertheless, see AAHistoryLovers messages 3758 and following for a copy of that, if you'd like to look at it:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3758

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)
| 6360|6360|2010-03-01 12:01:17|Charlie C|Draft Copies: books about drink|
Sorry, but just couldn't resist - abebooks.com, the major internet used book site, has in their current newlestter the theme of "Draft Copies: Books about Drink." So yes, a history of US beer cans 1930-1980 etc., lol., but also some titles related to sobriety, e.g. Peabody's "The Common Sense of Drinking." You can see the newsletter by going to abebooks.com and scrolling down on the left to "Recently Featured," or here is the direct link :

http://www.abebooks.com/books/author-alcohol-drunk-kingsley-amis/cocktail-drinking.shtml?cm_mmc=nl-_-nl-_-h00-bdrinkA-_-cta-search


Charlie C.
IM = route20guy
| 6361|6358|2010-03-01 18:29:19|Dougbert|The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing?|
To All,

I have just purchased a very nice copy of The Little Red Book, 1957 edition. What I see different is that this copy is published by Hazelden.

I also see you can buy new copies of The Little Red Bood published by BN Publishing, but I have not done a page by page audit of the two books to determine what changed.

Why would Hazelden give up such a good historical document?

Dougbert

- - - -

From the moderator:

Minneapolis AA members Ed Webster and Barry Collins originally published The Little Red Book themselves, under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. They called themselves the "Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" from their two last names.

Roughly around the time of Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, the Hazelden Foundation took over publishing it -- see http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html -- and then for many years Hazelden was given as the publisher.

The current Amazon.com listing for The Little Red Book, however, now has on the copyright page:

Copyright 2007 BN Publishing
www.bnpublishing.net

This may be a subsidiary of Barnes & Noble, but I cannot determine this for sure. See http://www.bn.com/
| 6362|6349|2010-03-01 19:13:38|aalogsdon@aol.com|Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill|
The three red 1947 recordings I have bear the same information plus Rockhill Radio. No speed is indicated in the space shown for speed. I have a later recording LAST MAJOR TALK OF "DR BOB" which shows Rockhill Recording made by Rockhill Radio, 18 East 50 Street, New York City, Plaza 9-7979. Speed shown as 33 RPM. It is black in color.
| 6363|6359|2010-03-01 19:13:39|bevflk@aol.com|Re: Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps|
From Beverly, David Jones, john wikelius,
Dougbert, and Glenn C.:

- - - -

The original message 6359 from <pamelafro@bigfoot.com>
(pamelafro at bigfoot.com) in Australia said:

have just come across a reference in Australian
AA archives that in 1947 '1000 copies "Interpretations
the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone
know what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any
copies still available?

- - - -

From Beverly <bevflk@aol.com> (bevflk at aol.com)

If you go to The Detroit Pamphlet you will find
it there, ok. I hope this helps you out.

For an introduction to this pamphlet and a copy of it, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html
and so on.

- - - -

From: David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

Try these links:

http://www.eskimo.com/~burked/history/tablemat.html

http://aaitems.com/An_Interpretation_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous_Program_of_the_The_Twelve_Steps-details.aspx

God bless
Dave

- - - -

From the moderator:

The first link is to one of the many online copies of the Detroit Pamphlet which Beverly mentioned above, also called the Washington DC Pamphlet, the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide, etc.

The second link is to an early edition of The Little Red Book, see the next message below.

- - - -

From john wikelius <justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)
and Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com>
(dougbert8 at yahoo.com)

That is the original name for the Little Red Blook first published in 1946. They are still around but purchase price is up there.

Could this be a foreign export of The Little Red Book?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See my comment in the previous message. In 1947
Australia was still using a currency based on
and tied to the British system of pounds, shillings,
and pence.

Wikipedia says:
"In 1940, an agreement with the U.S.A. pegged the pound to the U.S. dollar at a rate of 1 pound = 4.03 dollars. This rate was maintained through the Second World War and became part of the Bretton Woods system which governed post-war exchange rates. Under continuing economic pressure, and despite months of denials that it would do so, on 19 September 1949 the government devalued the pound by 30.5% to $2.80. The move prompted several other currencies to be devalued against the dollar."

At 240 pence to a pound, a penny would have been
worth 1.68 cents in U.S. currency.

If the booklet in question was being sold in Australia for five pence, that would have been 8.40 cents in U.S. currency.

I do not know the price for which Ed Webster's Little Red Book was being sold in 1946 and 1947, but I can hardly imagine them being able to sell a book that big for only eight and a half cents a copy. In terms of what the U.S. dollar was worth in the mid 1940's, eight and a half cents was a pamphlet, not book.

Can Tommy Hickcox or anybody tell us what The Little Red Book was sold for in its 1946 and 1947 printings?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)
| 6364|6359|2010-03-02 12:29:40|Tom Hickcox|Re: Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps|
Arizona Jack H. has a letter from Charlotte Lappen of the NY Office
to Ed Webster dated August 26th 1947 referencing a price for The
Little Red Book of $1.50.

When Coll-Webb started putting dust jackets on the book with either
the 11th Printing 1955 or 12th 1957, the price on the jacket for both
The Little Red Book and Stools and Bottles was $2.35. This appears
to have been raised to $2.50 for the 13th Printing 1959.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

The original message 6359 from <pamelafro@bigfoot.com>
(pamelafro at bigfoot.com) in Australia said:

have just come across a reference in Australian
AA archives that in 1947 '1000 copies "Interpretations
the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone
know what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any
copies still available?

- - - -

Glenn C. wrote in Message #6363 (making one slight numerical correction):

At 1 pound = 4.03 dollars and 240 pence to a pound, a British / Australian penny would have been worth 1.68 cents in U.S. currency.

>If the booklet in question was being sold in Australia for six
>pence, that would have been 10 cents in U.S. currency.
>
>I do not know the price for which Ed Webster's Little Red Book was
>being sold in 1946 and 1947, but I can hardly imagine them being
>able to sell a book that big for only ten cents a copy.
>In terms of what the U.S. dollar was worth in the mid 1940's, ten cents was a pamphlet, not book.
>
>Can Tommy Hickcox or anybody tell us what The Little Red Book was
>sold for in its 1946 and 1947 printings?
>
>Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)
>
| 6365|6365|2010-03-02 12:38:02|schaberg43|Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
I have long been told that when the Big Book was published in April of 1939, there were only TWO meetings established - one in Akron and one in Brooklyn.

Can anyone confirm this?

And, if true, can anyone tell me on what nights those two meeting actually met?

Thanks,

Old Bill
| 6366|6365|2010-03-03 15:08:38|Arthur S|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
Hi Bill

There were only two groups in April 1939 (Akron and NY) and they held weekly
meetings. Akron meetings were on Wednesday night at T Henry and Clarace
Williams' house on 676 Palisades Dr in Akron, Ohio. NY meetings were at Bill
and Lois' home, 182 Clinton St, Brooklyn NY on Tuesday nights.

Near the end of April 1939, Bill and Lois were evicted from their home. For
a time NY meetings were held at Bert T's tailor shop (and possibly some
other locations). In February 1940, the first clubhouse was rented at 334 ½
W 24th St in NY City and meetings were held there.

In early May 1939, led by pioneer member Clarence S, the Cleveland members
announced that they would meet separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at
the home of Grace and Abby G at 2345 Stillman Rd, Cleveland Heights in
Cleveland.

In October 1939, Akron members severed their ties to the Oxford Group.
Meetings then moved to Dr Bob's house. In January 1940, Akron meetings moved
to King School on Wednesday night.

Cheers

Arthur



From: schaberg43
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:25 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939

I have long been told that when the Big Book was published in April of 1939,
there were only TWO meetings established - one in Akron and one in Brooklyn.

Can anyone confirm this?

And, if true, can anyone tell me on what nights those two meeting actually
met?

Thanks,

Old Bill
| 6367|6365|2010-03-03 15:11:36|J. Lobdell|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
Henrietta records the meeting that moved to King School as being on Wednesday evening, which is the evening on which the King School Group still meets in Akron. The First Big Book Sold was signed by Bill at Clinton St the night of publication (given by Library of Congress as April 10 1939, a Monday), but Ginny M's notation suggests to me (though not strongly) that the meeting at which the next signatures were added was not that night, and I have a dim recollection of hearing that the Clinton St. meetings were on Tuesday. But that's open to correction and it could have been Monday -- and it could have varied, or they could have gotten together on publication night. Or Bill could have gotten the copies the next day for a regular Tuesday meeting. Or ... The Akron Meeting was evidently on Wednesday, though I don't know if that's held for all 75 years.
| 6368|6368|2010-03-03 15:25:37|Michael|Let it begin with me|
In AA Comes of Age they talk about opening the
meeting at Denver 1975 International Convention
with "let it Begin with Me."

How can I a copy of this?

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa6thintl1975.html

The Sixth A.A. International Convention
Denver, CO, 1975
by Nancy O.

"The opening session on Friday night began with a flag ceremony. As the name of each country was called over the public address system, spotlights shown on the flag, and, with music from the country (perhaps its national anthem) being played, its flag was carried down the aisle and onto the stage."

"AAs from 29 countries paraded their flags. When they arrived on the stage, each flag bearer stepped up to the microphone and repeated the conference theme, "Let It Begin With Me," in his or her native language."

But also see the Al-Anon Declaration, where the phrase "Let it begin with me" also occurs:

http://www.ncwsa.org/Docs/FAQ/Al-Anon_Info_On_Declaration.pdf
| 6369|6369|2010-03-04 11:53:49|Bill Lash|182 Clinton Street Now For Sale|
182 Clinton Street (where Bill & Lois W. lived
when he got sober) is currently for sale:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/nyregion/14fyi.html
| 6370|6370|2010-03-04 12:25:55|dad_s0n|Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member's Eye View|
A MEMBER'S EYE VIEW

I was asked about 20 minutes ago did I know who the author of that pamphlet was (or the person whose talk it is of). I have no idea but some feel because I have a little knowledge of AA's roots that I may have answers to a lot more.

Hope you fellas and gals can help me with this one as well.

David (27 years sober and loving it.)

- - - -

From the moderator G.C.

For a read-only copy of the pamphlet see:

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-41_amemberseyeviewofaa.pdf

This is AAWS conference pamphlet P-41 "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous." At the beginning it says:

"The author of this paper delivered it first before a class on alcoholism counseling at one of our large universities. A.A. World Services, Inc. wishes to thank him for his generous permission to reprint and distribute this talk."

In the talk, he says on page 10 that Bill W. and Dr. Bob met one another "33 years ago," so 33 + 1935 means that the talk was given in 1968. Dr. Bob was dead by that time, but as the pamphlet says on page 7, Bill W. was still living. The author of the pamphlet says that he first came to A.A. "more than 16 years ago" (see page 27, also page 26) which means c. 1952.

This means he would have come into the program just a little after people like Searcy W. (in Dallas), Sgt. Bill S. (The Psychology of Alcoholism), and Mel B. (who is such a valued member of the AAHistoryLovers).

LET US BE MINDFUL AT ALL TIMES OF THE PRINCIPLE OF ANONYMITY. The AAHistoryLovers is a public forum. We must use the same guidelines that would be used for an article or (if the person is dead) for an obituary in your local newspaper.
| 6371|6371|2010-03-04 12:30:38|jlobdell54|In Memoriam and Thanks to Michael Alexander [Lazaroff]|
Michael Alexander [Lazaroff] born in Macedonia July 17 1921 died on February 16 2010 in his 89th year. He was a graduate of the University of Pittsburgh in 1943, a Captain in WW2, and a graduate of Harvard Law in 1949. More to our point, he was the Emeritus Class A Trustee of AA who was New York's institutional memory going back to his days as a young(er) attorney with Bern Smith; he was the friend who brought Bill W the copy of Tocqueville's DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA that informed the Twelve Concepts (but he told me it wasn't his copy); he was a longtime Trustee and past Chairman of the Board; and he was an unfailingly courteous answerer of historical questions (and I sat next to him at dinners as often as I could). Michael Alexander -- Thanks! Requiescat in Pace.
| 6372|6365|2010-03-04 12:40:23|Sober186@aol.com|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
Were the Akron meetings before the move to
Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings
attended by some drying out drunks?

Jim L. Columbus, OH
| 6373|6358|2010-03-05 15:18:43|Tom Hickcox|Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing?|
I bought the book Barnes and Noble listed. The one I received is 6"
x 9", 88 pages long, with a bright red paperback cover with the title
"The Little Red Book" in white letters. It is published and
copyrighted by Wilder Publications. However, its text is very close
to the Hazelden book.

I compared it with a more or less current version of Hazelden's LRB,
The First Harper and Row Edition published in 1987. It is the same
general size as the smaller version has been since Hazelden started
publishing it in the middle 1960s. The first Hazelden sticker in a
Coll-Webb series LRB was in a 21st Printing, 1967.

The Wilder book does not have the Author's Note nor the
Dedication. Its Table of Contents is expanded compared with the
Hazelden/Harper.

I compared the chapters of two different steps and the texts were
almost exactly the same. The Wilder book does not have most of the
footnotes and those it has are incorporated into the text rather than
being at the bottom of the page. Most of the footnotes suggest that
the reader read portions of the Big Book. There was one footnote
left out that I think is important, and that is found at the bottom
of p. 125 in the Hazelden/Harper book. It doesn't reference the
quote taken from Fritz Mayo's story, "Our Southern Friend."

Many of the paragraphs thru the Hazelden/Harper book have been broken
into two paragraphs in the Wilder book, but the text was not changed.

The Wilder book lacks "Questions and Answers" and "We Don't Have To - But!"

So, the Wilder book is an approximation of The Little Red Book that
AFAIK Hazelden still publishes, lacking some important parts as well
as most foot notes, which usually suggest a portion of the Big Book
to be read before reading that part of The Little Red Book.

I would have thought Hazelden's copyright would preclude books like this.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

One additional item to note about this is that it is not a 1957
edition. Hazelden used 1957 date for many of the copies published since they acquired the rights in 1971.

The true 1957 version does not have Hazelden as its publisher.

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

At 17:53 3/1/2010, Dougbert wrote:

>To All,
>
>I have just purchased a very nice copy of The Little Red Book, 1957
>edition. What I see different is that this copy is published by Hazelden.
>
>I also see you can buy new copies of The Little Red Bood published
>by BN Publishing, but I have not done a page by page audit of the
>two books to determine what changed.
>
>Why would Hazelden give up such a good historical document?
>
>Dougbert
>
>- - - -
>
> >From the moderator:
>
>Minneapolis AA members Ed Webster and Barry Collins originally
>published The Little Red Book themselves, under the sponsorship of
>the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. They called themselves the
>"Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" from their two last names.
>
>Roughly around the time of Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, the
>Hazelden Foundation took over publishing it -- see
>http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html -- and then for many years Hazelden
>was given as the publisher.
>
>The current Amazon.com listing for The Little Red Book, however, now
>has on the copyright page:
>
>Copyright 2007 BN Publishing
>www.bnpublishing.net
>
>This may be a subsidiary of Barnes & Noble, but I cannot determine
>this for sure. See http://www.bn.com/
>
| 6374|6374|2010-03-05 15:27:56|Robert Stonebraker|Beginners lessons: 4D Big Book studies|
I first met members of the Fourth Dimension Group at a meeting in a small
office at 350 Royal Palm Way, Palm Beach, Florida in 1985. On this occasion
the chairperson, a tough looking ex-football player, Del H., told me to shut
my mouth or get out the door! Actually, the language was a bit more basic
than that, but I continue to thank God for the good sense that allowed me to
remain in that room and begin listening. I had been reading the Big Book
regularly throughout my nine years of sobriety, but had not properly studied
it; therefore, was living in great ignorance.

Del had been attending meetings Texas, but not staying sober; then he
started STUDYING the Big Book on his own, thereby learning an effective AA
program of action. Living in the spirit of said information kept him sober
till his death in the 1990s.

The not-so-big meeting (maybe 15 members) placed emphasis on Big Book
solutions for the ones who kept getting drunk, as well as newcomers. The
members were taught to read out loud at the meetings from the part of the
basic text which was applicable to their current situation or problem. Del
was adamant concerning not ever telling the seeker the answer - he was
supposed to read it aloud at the meeting . This great method made the
answer sink in: deep and clear!

Interestingly this group would buy newcomers their breakfast at a coffee
shop near an unused nearby real estate office and work them through the
12-Step process in about twelve hours. UNHEARD OF! But yet it worked so
well that the group grew by leaps and bounds, and other once-antagonistic
groups began sending their hard cases. But after Del's demise, the group
eventually folded.

In 1987 the modus operandi changed when yours truly started a somewhat
similar style meeting in Santa Monica, California. This new group became a
systematic: "teaching-line-and-verse-directly-from-the-Big
Book-style-meeting," but this was no longer a 'problem solving' meeting.
We studied through page 103 in about thirteen weeks, then started over
again.

RICHMOND, INDIANA:

In 1989, my new wife, Deanna and I started a near same format AA
meeting in Richmond, Indiana. These meetings were no fun meetings, e.g., no
experience, strength or hope, nor were [are] opinions allowed. No fun!! We
teach and the audience listens! Yes, but members did come! About 20 of
these meetings in now exist in NYC, California, Florida, Ohio, Kentucky and
Indiana.

So, this completes your I-am-sure-too-long-of-an-answer: Del H. started the
early Florida meetings in the mid 1980s, Then, Yours Truly, started the
current 'teaching style' Fourth Dimension Group Meetings in 1987.

For further Fourth Dimension Group information, meeting handouts, AA
recordings, 4D meeting schedule [incomplete], popular AA websites and much
more, go to: http://www.4dgroups.org

Bob

P.S. There are plans in the making for a 4D history booklet

P.S. For the sake of further research, the full name of now deceased
Florida founder, Del H., available upon request.
| 6375|6348|2010-03-05 15:48:40|jenny andrews|Re: Early AA beginners lessons|
From tcumming and jennylaurie:

- - - -

From: t <tcumming@nc.rr.com> (tcumming at nc.rr.com)

The first two paragraphs .... does that make any sense? If the AA's in Cleveland were being stretched so thin answering those "many hundreds of pleas for help" just how much time could they devote to "actively pursuing drunks" off barstools and street corners? Yeah, I know that a lot of those pleas were from family members rather than the drunks themselves [who might have been on stools or street corners], but my take on the history of that time is that as soon as that was determined, the AAs moved on to other prospects that were at their bottom and wanting to quit drinking ... not needing to be dragged to the meetings.

I am sure it did happen some, but probably not that different than today. Newly sober member gets enthusiastic about the program and goes out trying to 'save' his old drinking buddies/family members .... AND IT WORKS!!!! either the buddy starts coming to meeting too, or more often, they both go out and get drunk together again.
______________________________

"Initial growth in Alcoholics Anonymous took place in Cleveland, Ohio. Clarence S. and the guys went out actively pursuing drunks and brought them off bar stools and street corners. We don't do that today, but we were doing it back then [late 1930's and 1940's]. And it worked!"
"In early 1940, when there were about 1,000 members of AA, more than half were from Cleveland. The book 'AA Comes of Age' talks about it on pages 20 and 21: 'It was soon evident that a scheme of personal sponsorship would have to be devised for the new people. Each prospect was assigned an older AA, who visited him at his home or in the hospital, instructed him on AA principles, and conducted him to his first meeting.' So even back in the early days the sponsor was taking the sponsee to meetings and getting together with him, rather than having the sponsee track the sponsor down. 'AA Comes of Age' continues by saying, 'But in the face of many hundreds of pleas for help, the supply of elders could not possibly match the demand. Brand-new AA's, sober only a month or even a week, had to sponsor alcoholics still drying up in hospitals.'"
______________________________

Probably just me, but this article comes off as a bad sales pitch that I've heard too many times -- Old AA was so much better than New AA ... New AA is just plain lazy, and lets treatment centers do all it's work, people in the New AA just won't help the poor suffering alcoholic. And come to think of it, didn't a certain series of articles in the Cleveland paper have 'just a little' bit to do with that flood of hundreds of pleas for help?

The article goes on to say in the fourth paragraph:
______________________________

"During the winter of 1941 the Crawford Group (founded in February 1941) organized a separate group to help newcomers through the Steps. By the first issue of the Cleveland Central Bulletin, October 1942, the Crawford 'Beginners' Class' was listed as a separate meeting. And in the second issue, in November 1942, there was an article entitled 'Crawford Men's Training.' This refers to possibly the first 'Beginners' Class.' 'The Crawford Men's Training System has been highly acclaimed to many. Old AA's are asked to come to these meetings with or without new prospects, where new prospects will be given individual attention just as though they were in a hospital .... it was during that detox that sometimes ten and twenty AA members came to visit the new person. And each hour the prospect was awake he would hear someone's story -- over and over again .... 'The Miles Group reports they have enjoyed unusual success with their training meetings. The newcomer is not permitted to attend a regular AA meeting until he has been given a thorough knowledge of the work' .... You didn't just sit there -- you had already completed the steps when you went to your first AA meeting. 'From 15 to 20 participate at each training meeting and new members are thoroughly indoctrinated'" .... etc., etc.
______________________________

In these quotes, the author of this talk is saying that the participants in the Beginner Classes "WORKED / COMPLETED" the Steps ... yet the quotes he gives from each of those Beginner Classes use the terms:

**given individual attention
**hear someone's story
**given a thorough knowledge of the work
**thoroughly indoctrinated
**more advantageously present the Twelve Steps
**discussed
**for the purpose of acquainting

Studying the steps is not the same as taking the steps. The language quoted from the individual Beginner Meeting sources use terms more in line with introducing, presenting, discussing and studying the 12 Steps ... so the newcomer will be given a fair understanding of what will need to be done to learn how to live sober while practicing the AA program. I just don't see any of them presenting their Beginner Meetings as a way to WORK or COMPLETE the 12 Steps in their few weeks together.

The letter from Bobbie B., Bill W.'s secretary, says (about these pamphlets used for beginners lessons) that "very few have caused any controversy." And "Ruth recalled that the classes were discontinued in the mid-1950s as the result of the publication of the book 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions' by Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. In the Miami area the 'Twelve and Twelve' replaced both the 'Big Book' and the 'Little Red Book' and 'Step Studies' replaced the 'Beginners' Classes.' In the process, the period for taking the Steps was expanded and modified from 4 weeks to somewhere in between 12 and 16 weeks."

My own perspective as to why the Beginner's classes died away is very different, and has to do with creating controversy, and the adoption of our 12 Traditions.

The "controversy" part ... when the Grapevine started publishing those articles on 4 areas where Beginner's Classes were held... well, some were followed up in the Letters to the Editor column ... and not always with glowing recommendations [check our group archives for back in 2005 I think, the original GV articles and the follow-up Letters were posted to this group].

The "12 Traditions" part ... in most places the Beginner Classes were being used as an introduction to the AA program and unfortunately, were REQUIRED to be completed before a new member could join AA by attending regular meetings. After the Traditions were adopted [and the 12&12 was published] it became really hard to reconcile required Beginner Classes with our Third Tradition... "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking."
NOT attending 4-6 Beginner classes, with or without other requirements included in various parts of the country such as having a sponsor vouch for you, passing a qualifying interview with a supervising board, COMPLETING all 12 Steps, etc.

I just can't imagine requiring someone to go to classes and complete all 12 steps before they could join AA. And I can only imagine how many may have rushed to complete the steps in only 4 weeks and then decided that they didn't need AA ... after all hadn't they finished the Steps and got sober? - what more did AA have to offer. To a 30-day-sober brain that might well have made some sort of sense.

- - - -

jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

These "boot camps" seem much more structured and prescriptive than
the account in the Big Book (A Vision for You), viz: "... though they knew they must help other alcoholics if they would remain sober, that motive became secondary. It was transcended by the happiness they found in giving themselves for others. They shared their homes, their slender resources, and gladly devoted their spare hours to fellow-sufferers. They were willing, by day or night, to place a new man (sic) in hospital and visit him afterward... A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomers. In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night of the week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from the fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide time and place where new people might bring their problems ... Many a distracted wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship among women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had happened to them, to be advised how her own mate might be hospitalized and approached when next he stumbled. Many a man, yet dazed from the hospital experience, has stepped over the threshold into freedom. Many an alcoholic who entered there came away with an answer. He succumbed to that gay crowd inside, who laughed at their own misfortunes and understood his. Impressed by those who visited him at the hospital, he capitulated entirely when, later, in an upper room .... he heard the story of some man whose experience closely tallied with his own ... The very practical approach to his problems, the absence of intolerance of any kind, the informality (emphasis added), the genuine democracy, the uncanny understanding which these people had were irresistible ... Under only slightly different conditions, the same thing is taking place in many eastern cities ..."

- - - -

Original message no. 6348:

EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6348
| 6376|6376|2010-03-05 15:55:08|Jason Clemons|Wytheville, Virginia -- Old Man Vaughn|
I am seeking any information on the origins of
AA in and around Wytheville, Virginia. There
was a recent celebration of the 59th anniversary
of the Wytheville Group (Feb. 9th) and there
were rumors that the group was founded by one
of the Vaughn brothers who were responsible for
a booming furniture business

http://www.vaughanfurniture.com/About/tabid/56/Default.aspx

in the area.

Thank you,
Jason Clemons

--
Learning how to live in the greatest peace, partnership, and brotherhood
with all men and women, of whatever description, is a moving and fascinating adventure.

Jason Clemons
601 B Washington Street
Blacksburg, VA 24060
(h) (540)552-3819
(c) (540)230-4329
| 6377|6370|2010-03-05 16:02:55|Arthur S|Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member's Eye View|
The author of the "Member's Eye View" talk was
Allan McG of Southern California

Info below is from Bob P's unpublished history of AA:

"A Member's-Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous," one of the most powerful and popular pamphlets in the AA library, almost never saw the light of day.

Trustee Bayard P, an executive with a large advertising agency in New York, while on a business trip to California with his wife, Majorie (also active in the program), look up an old associate at the agency (and fellow AA member), Allan McG.

(Parenthetically, past trustee George D remembers Allan McG as a leader in Southern California AA when he joined in 1961, and says of him, "He was the most interesting man I ever met, the most stimulating. He was brilliantly articulate and touched many, many people.")

When Allan met Bayard and Marjorie P for dinner, he mentioned to them that he was making his annual speech about Alcoholics Anonymous to a class at UCLA which he had done for a number of years They asked him if he had a manuscript of the talk, which he later showed them; it was called "A Members Eye View of AA"

"We were absolutely thrilled by it," recalls Bayard. "It was the best thing of the kind we'd ever read, and we asked Allan's permission to take it back to New York and see if it could be an AA publication. Which we did."

Cheers

Arthur
| 6378|6378|2010-03-05 16:07:27|michellemirza@ymail.com|Dr. Elizabeth Beckman|
Hello! Anyone ever came across the name "Dr. Elizabeth Beckman?" She was a pioneer in the field of Psychology (1940s)and may have taught at a University in Peensylvania. I was told that one of her students was inspired by her work and went on to become one of our early pioneers in a particular city. Any clue? Your help is greatly appreciated. M
| 6379|6358|2010-03-05 16:21:39|James Bliss|Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing?|
Hazelden does still publish the Littel Red Book:
http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=3831&sitex=10020:22372:US

Interesting that they list the year published as 1967. But, this would
match the date Tom lists for the first sticker.

I would be interested in the copyright in the front of the BN version of the Little Red Book, the year and what it says.

Jim
| 6380|6370|2010-03-05 19:16:04|Charles Knapp|Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member's Eye View|
From Charles Knapp, Don B. (Chicago),
John Schram, and Gary Becktell.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
(cpknapp at yahoo.com)

Hello,

Allen McG., from Southern California (Area 5) authored this pamphlet. He gave an annual talk to some class at UCLA.

Around 1968 or 1969 a trustee from New York was visiting California and met Allen McG. Allen mentioned to the trustee about his annual talk and showed him a copy of his speech entitled "A Member's View of AA." The Trustee was very impressed and asked if he could take it back to New York and show it to the Conference Literature Committee.

It was very well received with one exception -- it was only one person's view. Nevertheless it was submitted and approved by the 1970 General Service Conference.

My information came from notes I made off of a tape of Allen.

I do not have his sobriety date, but he did say on tape that he placed only one condition on the use of his speech. He asked that nothing be changed from his original talk. I do not know if his wish was granted, but there is a small disclaimer at the beginning of the pamphlet that makes me believe it was.

I am no longer in So Cal, but maybe some one there can shed more light on this member and his talk.

Hope this helps.

Charles in Wisconsin

- - - -

From Don B.

According to Tex Brown in Chicago, the author was Alan McG.

I knew Tex a long time. His sobriety date was February 1948 and he was 53 years sober when he died. He had been to every International, including Cleveland. When he told you something you could take it to the bank. I spent a lot of time with him, he was a good friend of Tom Powers and many of the real old timers.

Don B.
Panel 53 Area 19 Chicago
Past Delegate

- - - -

From: "John Schram" <lasenby327@surfree.com>
(lasenby327 at surfree.com)

and "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>
(gk at kitcarson.net)

Alan McGinnis wrote "A Member's Eye View Of Alcoholics Anonymous."
| 6381|6358|2010-03-05 23:24:04|Tom Hickcox|Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing?|
At 17:42 3/5/2010, James Bliss wrote:

>Hazelden does still publish the Littel Red Book:
>http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=3831&sitex=10020:22372:US
>
>Interesting that they list the year published as 1967. But, this would
>match the date Tom lists for the first sticker.
>
>I would be interested in the copyright in the
>front of the BN version of the Little Red Book, the year and what it says.

I think there is a bit of confusion starting with
the original question. It looks as if the book
was listed on the BN web site, which apparently
has nothing to do with Barnes & Noble. The books
listed are sold thru Amazon, which is how I bought the book.

The copyright statement is © 2010 Wilder
Publications. Following this is the
statements: "This book is a product of its time
and does not reflect the same values as it would
if it were written today. Parents might wish to
discuss with their children how views on race
have changed before allowing them to read this classic work.

"All rights reserved. Printed in the United
States of America. No part of this book may be
used or reproduced in any manner without written
permission except for brief quotations for review purposes only."

Wilder Publications, Inc.
PO Box 243
Blacksburg, VA 24060

ISBN 10: 1-60459-948-0
ISBN 13: 978-60459-948-0

I am not competent to comment on the legalities
here, but I assume Hazelden still holds the
copyright to The Little Red Book. Wilder gives
them no credit yet their book is a direct copy.

Coll-Webb came up with a new copyright when they
had to update The Little Red Book when the Second
Edition Big Book came out with different
pagination. That copyright was in 1957 and was
used until another copyright was issued in 1975,
this time to Hazelden. There are a lot of
listings on eBay for the "1957 Edition."

I have suspected the original small format book
came out in the middle '60s as the Hazelden
address has a zip code and there isn't an ISBN
number for the book. Zip codes came out in 1963
and ISBNs in 1968. Hazelden put their sticker in
the 1967 Coll-Webb Little Red Book, the 21st
Printing. I had not seen their claim that they
started publishing it in 1967, but, as James says, that date fits.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
| 6382|6370|2010-03-08 19:38:37|Bill Lash|Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member's Eye View|
The author of the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View" is Allen McG. If you would
like to hear him speak, he used to do this really great Beginners' Workshop.
A copy of the 5-CD set of one of these Beginners' Workshops he did in
Brentwood CA in July 1968 can be purchased by going to
http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa & searching under his
name. The topics he talks about on this CD set are:

CD #1 - What is the point of my staying sober?
CD #2 - Is it necessary to have a spiritual experience?
CD #3 - What are the old ideas and how do you let go of them?
CD #4 - After the old ideas, then what?
CD #5 - Recap

Peace.
| 6383|6383|2010-03-08 19:48:07|Tom|Question about royalty distributions|
I remember seeing a schedule of royalties received, by person, by year, for all the AA publications.

I thought I saw it on this site, but I searched and just couldn't find it. Does anybody know where I would find that?

Thanks,

Tomv
| 6384|6369|2010-03-10 12:16:29|Michael Oates|Re: 182 Clinton Street Now For Sale|
Will there be a drive to buy it like Dr. Bob's
855 Ardmore home?

It is one of the greatest gifts for me to know
that I have purpose beyond myself.

Michael S. Oates
D.O.S. 09-23-1993

- - - -

From: Bent Christensen
<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

I'm in for $100 if someone will open this for
the public :-)

Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17
6000 Kolding
Tlf. 50 12 17 43 Bem�rk nyt nummer!

http://www.pass-it-on.dk/

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/

(From GC the moderator: that Yahoo
group is a Danish Big Book study group.
"Store Bog" is Danish for Big Book.)
| 6385|6365|2010-03-10 12:23:37|J. Lobdell|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
From Jared L. and Arthur S.

- - - -

> Were the Akron meetings before the move to
> Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings
> attended by some drying out drunks?
>
> Asked by Jim L. from Columbus, Ohio.

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

As I understand it, the meetings at Henrietta's were OG meetings; those at Bob's house may be considered AA meetings even when (if) they were officially OG meetings.

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>
(arthur.s at live.com)

They were both up to October 1939 when meetings moved to Dr Bob's house. Later due to their size meetings moved to King School in January 1940.

The meetings at T Henry and Clarace Williams home were Oxford Group meetings and reputedly continued up to 1954.

When the meetings were at the Williams' home, alcoholics and their spouses usually attended together. After a certain point the alcoholics ("the alcoholic squad") would go to a separate part of the house and meet together by themselves and with prospects - this was the origin of closed meetings.
| 6386|6370|2010-03-10 14:00:41|James Bliss|Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member s Eye View|
From James Bliss and Edward <elg3_79@yahoo.com>

You can also download these from XA Speakers at:
http://www.xa-speakers.org/

and search for Allen McG

- - - -

Bill Lash wrote:
>
> The author of the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View" is Allen McG. If you would
> like to hear him speak, he used to do this really great Beginners' Workshop.
> A copy of the 5-CD set of one of these Beginners' Workshops he did in
> Brentwood CA in July 1968 can be purchased by going to
> http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa
> <http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa> & searching
> under his name. The topics he talks about on this CD set are:
>
> CD #1 - What is the point of my staying sober?
> CD #2 - Is it necessary to have a spiritual experience?
> CD #3 - What are the old ideas and how do you let go of them?
> CD #4 - After the old ideas, then what?
> CD #5 - Recap
>
> Peace.
>
>
| 6387|6369|2010-03-10 14:12:58|Liana|Tenth Tradition|
What could the group tell me about the history
and development of Tradition 10 ?

thanks
Liana

- - - -

From the moderator:

This would mean a discussion of how Bill W.
made use of an account he had read about the
Washingtonian movement -- an account which
some have argued was inaccurate in some of
the things that it said.

But it would also be interesting to look at
the historical development of Bill W's ideas
about the issues involved in the Tenth Tradition,
if this is possible.

But I don't know whether this is in fact possible.

Do we have earlier and later versions of his
ideas about AA taking political stands, and AA
involvement in public controversy?

The transmutation of the Oxford Group into Moral
Re-Armament in 1938, and its greater and greater
involvement in political activism -- on one
occasion (Frank Buchman's statement about
Adolf Hitler) with disastrous consequences --
may also have pointed out to Bill W. the wisdom
of keeping AA out of that kind of thing.

Moral Re-Armament (remember that the old Oxford
Group no longer existed by 1938-39) was
increasingly poking its fingers into every
political and labor controversy it could find.
Although Bill W. TALKED ABOUT the Washingtonians
in his chapter on the Tenth Tradition, it was
surely Moral Re-Armament which he was now
predicting was going to wither away and lose
most of its influence in the world.

And the disputes taking place in American society
during the 1930's, 40's, and 50's were often
bitter and devisive: conservative politicians had
already been claiming that laws forbidding child
labor and giving the vote to women were Communist
/Socialist plots to destroy American democracy.
We had Herbert Hoover vs. Franklin D.
Roosevelt, isolationism vs. getting involved in the
Second World War, and those who favored U.S.
involvement in the Korean war vs. those who
wanted us out of Korea. And then the trial of
Alger Hiss in 1950 and the arrest of Julius and
Ethel Rosenberg in that same year started a Red
scare. Senator Joseph McCarthy began his
anti-Communist witch hunt in February 1950.

This was all right before the 12 Steps and 12
Traditions book was published. NOT a wise time
for a group like AA to get involved in political
controversies of ANY sort, if they could avoid
it.

It should also be noted that the great teachers
of the New Thought movement which had so much
influence on early AA (Emmet Fox's Sermon on the
Mount and James Allen's As a Man Thinketh)
counseled that when we were attacked by somebody
else, the worse thing possible was to respond
with an angry, out-of-control, bitter counter-
attack.

When you were attacked, you should respond by
blessing the other person, praying that they
might find peace and an end to their anger and
so on, and by thinking instead of God and love
and the goodness of the universe. If we think
about controversy and conflict all the time,
we will only find ourselves involved in more
and more controversy and conflict -- that was
the basic teaching of New Thought -- "as a
man thinketh" so shall his life become. It
was an unbreakable law of nature, they said.

So there was a deeper underlying spiritual
principle involved in the Tenth Tradition,
as well as the desire to keep AA out of the
bitterly devisive American political scene
of that period.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6388|6388|2010-03-10 20:08:12|egrott2|You all are co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous|
Somewhere, my mind latched onto the following
quote in an address to AA:

"You are all now the co-founders of Alcoholics
Anonymous..." ...... of the future?

I had remembered it as being a quote from Lois W.
at one of the AA International Conventions but
I can't find it referenced anywhere. I don't
think I made this up but, well, I never know...

Any help in locating the source of this quote
(and the context in which it was said) would be
much apreciated.
| 6389|6365|2010-03-10 20:24:47|Arthur S|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
Around March/April 1935, Henrietta Sieberling, encouraged by her friend
Delphine Weber, organized a Wednesday-night Oxford Group meeting at the home
of T Henry and Clarace Williams, 676 Palisades Dr in Akron. The meeting was
started specifically to help Dr Bob with his drinking problem. Prior to this
OG meetings were held on Thursday nights at the OG West Hill group (address
unknown to me). There were no meetings at Henrietta Sieberling's gatehouse
home on the Sieberling estate.

When meetings moved to Dr Bob's house in October 1939 it marked the Akron
Group's separation from the OG. Up to this time the meetings at the Williams
home during 1939 may well have been considered both OG and AA meetings due
to the mix of people involved and AA had not as yet evolved the tradition of
non-affiliation. The same would be true of meetings held at Bill W's home on
Clinton St up to around August 1937.

Since the AA Fellowship marks its beginning as June 1935, the meetings held
under the auspices of the OG in Akron and NY were also meetings of the
"alcoholic squads" of both cities which later became the AA Fellowship.
Perhaps, for the question of whether early fellowship meetings were OG meetings
or AA meetings, the most appropriate answer might be "yes." Care should be
exercised to not try to retrofit today's standards of what is or isn't an AA
meeting to the situation that existed in the latter 1930s.

The fellowship of alcoholics (which consisted of only two groups) began
using the name Alcoholics Anonymous well prior to the publication of the Big
Book in April 1939 (its foreword begins with "We, of Alcoholics Anonymous,
are more than one hundred men and women ..." and later states "When writing
or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to
omit his personal name, designating himself instead as "a member of
Alcoholics Anonymous"). When Cleveland separated from Akron and the OG in
May 1939 they identified themselves as Alcoholics Anonymous.

The members in Akron had a tremendous affection for T Henry and Clarace
Williams and their separation from the OG in October 1939 was painful due to
that great affection. I would tend to designate the meetings at Dr Bob's
house as unambiguous AA meetings.

- - - -

THIS IS A RESPONSE AND CONTINUATION OF THE DISCUSSION
in Message 6385 between Arthur S. and Jared L., which
in turn was in answer to the question asked in Message
6372 by Jim L. from Columbus, Ohio:

> Were the Akron meetings before the move to
> Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings
> attended by some drying out drunks?

- - - -

In that message, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) said:

As I understand it, the meetings at Henrietta's were OG meetings; those at
Bob's house may be considered AA meetings even when (if) they were
officially OG meetings.

- - - -

And "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>
(arthur.s at live.com) said:

They were both up to October 1939 when meetings moved to Dr Bob's house.
Later due to their size meetings moved to King School in January 1940.

The meetings at T Henry and Clarace Williams home were Oxford Group meetings
and reputedly continued up to 1954.

When the meetings were at the Williams' home, alcoholics and their spouses
usually attended together. After a certain point the alcoholics ("the
alcoholic squad") would go to a separate part of the house and meet together
by themselves and with prospects - this was the origin of closed meetings.
| 6390|6369|2010-03-10 20:32:06|pbcliberal|Re: Tenth Tradition|
In the years after Buchman's intemperate remarks, theologians and
philosophers that had helped underpin not-necessarily-religious
spirituality also were taking political positions, most of them liberal.

Reinhold Niebuhr, generally credited with the writing the serenity
prayer, was a prominent leader in the American socialist party. His
contemporaries at Union Theological Seminary included Dietrich
Bonhoeffer who founded an anti-Nazi church and wrote prison epistles on
religion-less Christianity, and was executed by the Nazis for an alleged
attempt to assassinate Hitler.

It probably took tremendous will to resist what were surely great
pressures to apply an army of newly sober alcoholics who now were
seeking higher purpose to address the political ills of the world.

A personal introduction: I have rejoined the fellowship after 18 years
of absence that followed 13 years of sobriety. It is good to be back.
| 6391|6369|2010-03-12 18:36:38|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Tenth Tradition|
From Laurie Andrews and Tom (tomvlll)

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Remarkable forbearance from Bill, given that
he was a crusty Republican and used to fire off
vitriolic letters to Franklin D. Roosevelt when
he was drunk!

- - - -

From: "Tom" <tomvlll@yahoo.com>
(tomvlll at yahoo.com)

I think another issue which led to the tradition
was the problem raised when Marty Mann put
Bill Wilson's and Dr. Bob's names on her
National Committee on Alcoholism letterhead,
naming them as board members (or advisors?).
| 6392|6369|2010-03-12 18:41:41|Arthur S|Re: Tenth Tradition|
What's wrong with the explanation given by Bill W in AA Comes of Age on the
origin of Tradition Ten (pages 123-128)? It seems unambiguous and to the
point.

Many seeds of the Traditions were spelled out in the Foreword to the First
Edition Big Book in April 1939, among them the statement that "We are not
allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose
anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted."

The Twelve Traditions were defined by Bill W in their long form in an April
1946 Grapevine article ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition"). During
the mid to latter 1940s Bill published a series of explanatory Grapevine
articles on the Traditions that can be found in "The Language of the Heart"
(and which were used for the writing of the 12&12 in 1953 and AA Comes of
Age in 1957). In December 1947, the Grapevine carried a notice that an
important new 48-page pamphlet titled "AA Traditions" was sent to each group
and that enough copies were available for each member to have one free of
charge. It was AA's first piece of literature dedicated totally to the
Traditions. Bill wrote another series of articles on the Traditions in the
early 1950s which pretty much echoed the 1940s articles.

There is no commentary I can find by Bill W regarding or remotely alluding
to the Traditions being influenced by the MRA, conservative politicians, the
2nd World War, Korea, McCarthy, etc. Bill certainly did seek to distance
himself and the fellowship from Frank Buchman after his August 1936 PR
disaster regarding his Hitler comment (which the press reported out of
context and which plagued Buchman for many years). It marked the beginning
of the decline of the OG. The NY Group separated from the OG around August
1937 (Sam Shoemaker separated from the OG/MRA in 1941 and had them vacate
the premises at Calvary House - his dispute with Buchman was amplified in
the press and MRA was losing many adherents).

Bill was inclined to refer to the OG as more of a positive influence on AA
than as a negative one (and there were negative influences). In a July 1949
letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote: "So far as I am concerned,
and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual
wellspring at the beginning." Bill later expressed regret that he did not
write to Frank Buchman as well. In AA Comes of Age (pg 29) Bill wrote:
"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character
defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the
Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in
America, and from nowhere else."

According to Nell Wing, Bill W's political viewpoint was conservative
Republican and he was reputedly very anti-FDR and anti-New-Deal.

AA history trivia and myth item: contrary to popular belief, the short form
of the Traditions were not approved at the 1950 International Convention in
Cleveland. What was approved was quite different than the familiar short
form of the Traditions we know today. Prior to voting on the matter, Bill W
was asked to sum up the Traditions for the convention attendees. In his
summation, Bill paraphrased a variation of the Traditions the text of which
is in the book "The Language of the Heart" (pg 121). Notably missing from
what Bill recited to the attendees were the principles embodied in Tradition
Ten of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA name
into public controversy. Nevertheless, the Traditions as recited by Bill
were approved unanimously by the attendees.

Cheers

Arthur
| 6393|6369|2010-03-12 21:16:53|glennccc|Re: Tenth Tradition|
In message #6392 from "Arthur S"
<arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6392

Arthur wrote:

<< What's wrong with the explanation given by Bill W in AA Comes of Age on the origin of Tradition Ten (pages 123-128)? It seems unambiguous and to the point.>>

<>

Arthur, on page 123, in the first paragraph of Bill W's explanation of why we need the Tenth Tradition, which you cited above, Bill W says: "Our fellowship has never taken sides publicly on any question in this embattled world .... 'Practically never have I heard a heated religious, political, or reform argument among A.A. members.'"

AA Comes of Age was written to commemorate the great 20th International Convention in St. Louis in 1955, so in that paragraph Bill W was saying that AA as such never took sides publicly on any of the great political issues of the 20 year period that ran from 1935 to 1955.

My little comment simply listed (especially for members of the AAHistoryLovers who live in other parts of the world, and for our younger members too, who weren't around back then like I was) what the big political issues were which often divided the U.S. so deeply during the course of those twenty years, the issues on which (fortunately) AA had "never taken sides publicly."

But then on that same page (page 123), in the second paragraph of Bill W's explanation of why we need the Tenth Tradition, he was more explicit in describing these great public political issues:

"In our own times we have seen millions die in political and economic wars often spurred by religious and racial differences. We live in the imminent possibility of a fresh holocaust to determine how men shall be governed and how the products of nature and toil shall be divided among them. That is the spiritual climate in which A.A. was born ...."

Arthur, just look at the specific words which Bill Wilson used there.

"We have seen millions die in political and economic wars often spurred by religious and racial differences." Since Bill was talking about the period between 1935 and 1955, it is clear that he was referring there above all to the Second World War (1939-1945) and the first holocaust (the killing of six million Jews by the Nazis).

"We live in the imminent possibility of a fresh holocaust" referred to the nuclear arms race which began right after the Second World War was over, a race between (in particular) the U.S. and the Soviet Union to see who could build the most nuclear weapons. That is what was threatening the world with (this time around) a nuclear holocaust.

This new threat was being created by a struggle "to determine how men shall be governed and how the products of nature and toil shall be divided among them." If we look at the specific words which Bill W. used, it is clear that this meant the Cold War struggle between Communism and western style democracy.

That's what it was about: Communism had one vision of "how men shall be governed" and of how the goods produced by farmers and factory workers ("the products of nature and toil") should be divided up, and capitalism had a very different theory about how all this should be done.

And this conflict between Communism and capitalism (or however you wish to describe the two sides) was not only threatening the globe with a third world war, it was also grievously tearing up the United States internally at that very time.

Senator Joseph McCarthy began his anti-Communist witch hunt in February 1950. McCarthy himself headed the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations in 1953 and 1954, and during that time used it for a number of his Communist-hunting investigations.

McCarthyism attacked not only people whom they regarded as Communists or Communist sympathizers, but also regarded three other issues as part of the Communist/Socialist plot to poison, brainwash, and destroy the United States:

(1) polio vaccination,

(2) flouridated water,

(3) and mental health care services (which could of course include alcoholism treatment centers if they employed psychiatrists and psychotherapists on their staffs).

Then in 1953, a reaction against McCarthyism began: Arthur Miller produced his play, "The Crucible," which portrayed McCarthyism as a new version of the Salem witch trials, and the highly respected broadcast journalist Edward R. Murrow also began criticizing McCarthyism. By 1954, Murrow was attacking McCarthy himself as a dishonest fear-monger.

This Cold War struggle that Bill W. was referring to, what he called the struggle (going on at that time) "to determine how men shall be governed and how the products of nature and toil shall be divided among them," had also already erupted into armed conflict. When North Korean forces invaded South Korea on June 25, 1950, it began the Korean War. When General Dwight Eisenhower became the Republican candidate for president in 1952, he promised to "go to Korea" to end the war. With this promise, Eisenhower was able to defeat Adlai Stevenson in the November elections, and a cease fire ended the major shooting part of the Korean conflict on 27 July 1953. But when I lived in Dallas, Texas, in the early 1960's, there were still some extreme anti-Communists who were viciously attacking Eisenhower as a "Communist fellow traveler" because he worked to end that war.

It was all of this stuff which Bill Wilson was referring to in the first two paragraphs he wrote in his explanation, in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (pages 123-128), as to why AA needed the Tenth Tradition.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was published in 1953, and Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age was written in celebration of the 20th International Convention in St. Louis in 1955, so there was no need for Bill W. to spell all of these things out for a U.S. audience.

And when they heard Bill W. advising them, there in the 1950's, that AA as an organization should not get involved in any of these controversies on ANY side, AA members of that time knew exactly that this was what he meant.

In AA meetings today, in my part of Indiana, I sometimes hear AA members trying to talk politics before or after the AA meeting, and viciously attacking the political figures whom they oppose. Fortunately, it is only on rare occasions, but even a handful of times is too many. This is behavior which is totally out of bounds for AA people. It doesn't matter in the slightest which side you are attacking and which side you are defending. If it is allowed to play any part in AA fellowship, it will end up destroying the AA program.

Bill Wilson was exactly right in what he said on this topic.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6394|6394|2010-03-15 00:17:47|pbcliberal|Gabriel Heatter broadcast, April 25, 1939|
Do any audio recordings exist of the Gabriel Heatter interview with the
AA member on "We the People?" There are transcripts
<http://www.eskimo.com/%7Eburked/history/heatter.html> available, but I
can't find the actual audio.

Radio broadcasts during that period were usually live, but "electrical transcriptions" (usually 16 inch disks) were often made for
the use of commercial sponsors, or for rebroadcast for the west coast.
| 6395|6395|2010-03-17 12:50:09|donaldl.mansell|The Great Fact on p. 164 in the Big Book|
The term "the Great Fact" appears on pg. 164 in the Big Book, and seems to refer to a deity because of the capital letters. I assume Wilson did not create the term but can find no reference to an original source. Can anyone shed some light on this?

- - - -

From the moderator:

The passage you are talking about on page 164 reads as follows:

< with Him is right, and great events will come to pass
for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact
for us.>>

It seems to me that this passage is saying:

"The Great Fact" =
IF your relationship with God is right
THEN great events will happen for you and many people.

The words "great fact" also appear one other place in the first 164 pages of the Big Book, on p. 25:

< have had deep and effective spiritual experiences*
which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward
life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe.
The central fact of our lives today is the absolute cer-
tainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and
lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has
commenced to accomplish those things for us which
we could never do by ourselves.>>

This seems to me to be saying pretty much the same thing:

"The great fact" =
WHEN we had the right spiritual experience of God
THEN God did revolutionary and miraculous things for us which we could never do by ourselves.

Or in other words, the words "Great Fact" do not seem to me to be referring to God himself, but to the fact of what God has done for us. That would be my reading of it.

Bill Wilson, using early twentieth century literary style, sometimes used capital letters simply to emphasize words, or to indicate that he was pointing to something very specific (instead of just any old "great fact" among a large number of important factual statements). It doesn't necessarily mean that he is referring to God.

So if you look down to the next paragraph, you can see him capitalizing "Fellowship of the Spirit" and "Road of Happy Destiny." And that's why we still capitalize the words "Big Book."

In the early twentieth century -- in fact, going all the way back to the eighteenth century -- good writers of English capitalized words a whole lot more than authors have been doing over more recent years. I have seen this change taking place personally, over the course of my own lifetime, because I was born the same year that the Big Book was published. I don't capitalize as many words now when I write formal English prose as I did when I was twenty years old. It just looks old fashioned and awkward when you write like that nowadays.

But other members of the group may have a different reading of this passage.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)
| 6396|2173|2010-03-17 15:05:45|Glenn Chesnut|Jack Alexander|
We have been asked for Jack Alexander's date of birth and for a photograph of him.
 
Box 459 for February-March 2008
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/en_box459_febmar08.pdf
has a photo of him.

There is also what appears to be a poorer copy of the same photo, cropped down a bit and (it seems to me) vertically distorted, at http://www.aa.org.mx/Experiencias.htm
 
Are there any other known photos?
 
That Box 459 article says that "in failing health, Jack Alexander and his wife Anita retired to Florida, where he died on September 17, 1975," and says that he was 38 years old when he did the Saturday Evening Post article, so he must have been born c. 1903.
 
Somewhat puzzlingly, many other places say that Jack Alexander died on September 19, 1975 in St. Louis. Can anyone in our group confirm which date and place is correct?
 
Thanks!
 
Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6397|6397|2010-03-18 11:28:12|Glenn Chesnut|Milton Maxwell|
We have been asked for Milton Maxwell's date of birth. If we can also obtain his date of death, we might as well post that too.
 
The request referred to him as Milton Maxwell M.D., but in my checking around he seems to have been a Ph.D., not an M.D.
 
Can anyone in our group verify which of those is correct?
 
Thanks!
 
Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6398|6397|2010-03-18 20:18:19|J. Lobdell|Re: Milton Maxwell (and Jack Alexander)|
From Jared Lobdell and Jim Blair

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

I find in my notes (unattributed I'm sorry to say) that Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D., was born August 17 1907 and died October 28 1988.

Btw, Jack Alexander was, I believe, b. February 8 1903, but beyond the fact that he died in Florida in 1975 (perhaps in September), I have no vital statistics on him.

Milton Maxwell was a Professor of Sociology and definitely a Ph.D. (University of Texas, I believe).

- - - -

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

On the cover of his book, The Alcoholics Anonymous Experience, he gives his name as Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D.

He was a sociologist.

Jim
| 6399|6397|2010-03-19 13:43:40|Glenn Chesnut|Milton Maxwell|
Markings: Your Archives Interchange, Vol. 28, No. 3 (Fall 2008)
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_fall08.pdf

A Class A Trustee Whose Research and Writing
Focused on Alcoholism and the A.A. Fellowship

Milton A. Maxwell was elected
to the General Service Board in
1971 and its chairman in 1978.
[WITH PHOTOGRAPH]

Milton A. Maxwell, who served as a Class A (nonalcoholic)
trustee and then chairman of the General Service
Board, traced his interest in A.A. to his time as a minister
when he was approached by a congregant seeking help for a
drinking problem.

Years later, he wrote: "Little did I realize in 1939
when, as Leslie S.'s minister, I suggested Alcoholics
Anonymous to him, that in 1947 I would be a sociologist
doing a Ph.D dissertation on A.A. But such was the case,
and the result is a deep interest in the problem of alcoholism
and particularly in A.A."

The title of that dissertation is "Social Factors in the
Alcoholics Anonymous Program." Maxwell was a sociology
professor at Washington State University when he was
awarded his Ph.D in 1949.

In his dissertation abstract, Maxwell analyses the power of
the A.A. group: "changed social relations are the most effective
means for bringing about personality change--and that
the social interaction in a primary group has the greatest capacity
for bringing about such change."

He wrote or co-wrote 20 articles on the sociological aspects
of alcoholism during his tenure at WSU from 1947 to
1965, and nine while a professor at Rutgers University from
1965 to 1975.

In 1984, he published a full-length book, The AA Experience,
intended for professionals.

Maxwell was elected to the General Service Board of
Alcoholics Anonymous as a Class A (nonalcoholic) trustee
in 1971 and its chairman in 1978. Among the presentations
he gave during his tenure was one on cooperation with non-
A.A. professionals, which he delivered in 1971 at the
Conference: "A.A.'s No. 1 concern should be the quality of
A.A. itself…. This is the most important contribution which
A.A. can make to the total field. Nevertheless, I believe that
A.A. will not have its best future unless it also--and within
the Traditions--continually concerns itself with good twoway
communication with the non-A.A. alcoholism world."

In another presentation, on anonymity, which he gave at
the Conference in 1978, he says: "Originally, being anonymous
was a simple response to the prevailing stigma. It was
aimed at protecting individuals already in the groups and
promised the same protection to anyone thinking about coming
in. Then, from experience, emerged the understanding of
anonymity's spiritual values--for members personally, each
group, and the Fellowship as a whole."

He stepped down from the post in 1982, but continued
to be involved with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services
and A.A. as trustee emeritus. He was 81 years old at his death
in 1988.

The Milton A. Maxwell Collection was donated to the
General Service Office Archives by Charlotte Maxwell about
a year later.

Among that collection is his pamphlet "Alcohol, Man, and
Science," published in 1965 by Washington State University.
In it Maxwell challenges the stereotype of the alcoholic:
"Alcoholism is a progressive illness with a very gradual, frequently
imperceptible, onset…. Many alcoholics are hidden
from recognition by others, and even from themselves, by the
stereotype of late-stage alcoholics--perhaps the Skid
Row type or even the 'Lost Weekend' type. But the
majority of our alcoholics, at a given time, are not
late-stage alcoholics. One study showed that almost 70
percent of the male alcoholic patients at a Seattle private
hospital for alcoholics were married and living with
spouse; 95 percent of them were employed."

In another of his writings--"Hidden Alcoholic
Employees"--Maxwell again took up the case of the alcoholic
who escapes notice: "the alcoholic employee not only
can be a 'hidden man' but usually is. Late-stage alcoholism
which seriously interferes with job performance can seldom
be hidden and is seldom tolerated. But early-stage and even
much of middle-stage alcoholism can be hidden--and most
problem drinkers in industry are in these stages."

In his research, Maxwell investigated the psychology of
the alcoholic. In an article he wrote in 1950 ("Alcohol
Addiction as a Sociogenic Personality Disorder"), he says:
"alcohol effects an illusory adjustment which, in the course
of time, creates new maladjustments, new problems, new
tensions involving family, friends, and job." Also from the
same article: "self-esteem is shaken, guilt and remorse set in,
and alcohol has the capacity of narcotizing this pain ...."

Among Maxwell's works is an article on the Washingtonian
Movement that is familiar to A.A. members. In it Maxwell
compares that temperance society of the 1840s with Alcoholics
Anonymous. Begun in Baltimore in 1841, the Washingtonians
numbered in the tens of thousands (and possibly well over
100,000) within a couple of years. "If there is uncertainty concerning
the number of alcoholics temporarily helped or permanently
rehabilitated ... there is no question that the movement
made a tremendous impact," according to Maxwell.
That impact, though, was relatively brief, with membership
peaking in the mid-1840s and petering out soon thereafter.

In comparing the Washingtonian Movement to A.A.,
Maxwell says that whereas there were obvious similarities,
"the differences can be brought out ... by an analysis of the
Alcoholics Anonymous program--its principles, practices
and content."

The most significant differences, and the reasons that A.A.
has endured and the Washingtonians did not, says Maxwell
in his article: are A.A.'s exclusively alcoholic membership;
its singleness of purpose, which includes steering clear of
"outside issues;" that it provides a program of recovery,
including the Twelve Steps; its principle of anonymity; and
the Traditions.

As it was noted in a workshop of the 1983 General Service
Conference, Maxwell's account of the Washingtonians "revealed
that one cause of its collapse was the ego-stroking that
the movement encouraged" and that "a clear-cut primary
purpose became diffused into a muddle of worthy causes."

In his farewell talk as chairman of the General Service
Board, at the 1982 Conference, Maxwell said: "In a general
society characterized by competitive striving for status, recognition,
power, and their material symbols, A.A. has a recovery
program based upon opposite values--upon learning
and an unself-centered way of life .... Furthermore, A.A. has
a collective life--Traditions, Concepts, minimum of structure--
that is remarkably in harmony with and supportive of
the basic recovery program."

Soon after Maxwell had been elected Board chairman, Dr.
Jack Norris, who served as a trustee on the Board from 1951
to 1978, had this to say about the new chairman: "I believe
Milton Maxwell is too little appreciated in A.A., because he
is so quiet. But because of his understanding heart, I think
Milton may be A.A.'s greatest nonalcoholic friend in the field
of alcoholism."
| 6401|6397|2010-03-23 09:38:13|Charlie C|Milton Maxwell|
Here's that info again Glenn:

I dug around a little, and seeing that Milton Maxwell had been a
sociology prof at Washington State in Pullman for many years looked in
some standard sources, no luck, but then contacted their library and
received the following information from a fellow librarian there. (Most
college archives, usually in their libraries, keep some sort of faculty
bio file...)

"Milton Andrew Maxwell. Born August 12, 1907 in Beecher Illinois.
Attended high school in Rowena, Texas. Parents Daniel and Bertha, father
was a "Minister, Evangelical and Reformed Church." Wife (at time of
this 1947 paperwork, anyway) was Charlotte Catherine Maxwell. Two
children (again, as of 1947), Douglas and Ross.

Degrees were: A.B. in 1929 from Elmhurst (ILL) College, B.D. in 1931
from Chicago Theological Seminary, M.A. in 1944 from University of
Texas. Left to come to WSU with his PhD unfinished, but notes say he
finished it through U of Texas in 1949. His wife, by the way, received
a B.S. in Chemistry in 1933 from the Florida State College for Women.

Held the following positions before WSU:
Social Research Assistant, 1930-1931, Chicago Congregational Union
Minister, 1931-1934, 1st Congregational Church, Ault, Colo.
Minister, 1934-1940, Community Church, Flossmoor, Ill.
Minister, 1940-1945, University Community Church, Austin, Tex.
Part-time instructor in Sociology, 1943-1945, University of Texas

Hired at WSU (well, then WSC, as we only became WSU in 1959) in 1945,
remained here until 1965 at which point he resigned to take another
position. He had some short periods away - resigned in 1960 to "take
another position" and returned one year later. Was on sabbatical and
then unpaid personal leave in 1957-1958 at Yale Univ. Center of Alcohol
Studies."

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

"A flittin stane gaithers nae fog"
| 6402|6397|2010-03-23 09:55:48|Jim Myers|Re: Milton Maxwell|
On silkworth.net is the following:

The Washingtonian Movement: Comparison With Alcoholics Anonymous

QUART. J. STUD. ALC., VOL. 11, 410-452, 1950.
By Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Sociology, State College of Washington, Pullman, Washington

(From Jim M of silkworth.net - Please note above: By Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D.)

COMPARISON WITH ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

It is apparent that the Washingtonian societies, when they were most effective in the rehabilitation of alcoholics, had a great many similarities to Alcoholics Anonymous. These similarities might be listed as follows:
1. Alcoholics helping each other.
2. The needs and interests of alcoholics kept central, despite mixed membership, by predominance of numbers, control, or the enthusiasm of the movement.
3. Weekly meetings.
4. The sharing of experiences.
5. The fellowship of the group or its members constantly available.
6. A reliance upon the power of God.
7. Total abstinence from alcohol.
Most Washingtonian groups probably failed to meet this ideal program, or to maintain it for long. Even in itemizing the ideal program, some of the differences between the Washingtonian groups and Alcoholics Anonymous stand out.

The admission of nonalcoholics as members and the incorporation of the "temperance" purpose - the inducement of total abstinence in nonalcoholics - are the most striking differences. Furthermore, at their best, the Washingtonian groups possessed no understanding of alcoholism other than the possibility of recovery through love and sympathy. Their approach to the problem of alcoholism and alcohol was moralistic rather than psychological or therapeutic. They possessed no program for personality change. The group had no resource of ideas to help them rise above the ideational content locally possessed. Except for their program of mutual aid they had no pattern of organization or activity different from existing patterns. There was far too great a reliance upon the pledge, and not enough appreciation of other elements in their program. Work with other alcoholics was not required, nor was the therapeutic value of this work explicitly recognized. There was no anonymity to keep the public from becoming aware of broken pledges, or to keep individuals from exploiting the movement for prestige and fame. Finally, there was not enough understanding of their own therapeutic program to formulate it and thus help the new groups to establish themselves on a sound and somewhat uniform basis.

The differences can be brought out more clearly by a more detailed, comparative analysis of the Alcoholics Anonymous program - its principles, practices and content.

1. Exclusively alcoholic membership.- There are many therapeutic values in the cohesiveness and solidarity which a group with a common problem can achieve. But in the light of the Washingtonian experience, the greatest long-run value of an exclusively alcoholic membership is that it permits and reinforces exclusive attention to the rehabilitation of alcoholics.

2. Singleness of purpose. - As stated in the masthead of an organizational publication (23), Alcoholics Anonymous "is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

Nothing can divide groups more quickly - and certainly destroy the therapeutic atmosphere effectively - than religious and political controversy. Strong efforts were made in the Washingtonian movement to minimize sectarian, theological and political differences, but the movement did not avoid attracting to itself the hostile emotions generated by these conflicts. Even if it had been more successful in this regard, it was still caught in all the controversy to which the temperance cause had become liable. Not only that, but within the temperance movement itself it eventually became stranded on the issue of moral suasion versus legal action.

In the light of this experience, the position of Alcoholics Anonymous stands in decided and hopeful contrast. In refusing to endorse or oppose causes, and particularly the temperance cause, A.A. is avoiding the greatest handicap which the Washingtonian movement had. Some temperance leaders may deplore that A.A. does not give them support, but they have no grounds for complaining that they are being opposed or hampered by A.A.

The A.A. program also contains a happy formula for avoiding the religious or theological controversies which could easily develop even within the groups as presently constituted. This is the use of the term "Power" (greater or higher), and particularly the phrase "as we understood Him," in referring to this Power, or God. The tolerance which this phrase has supported is an invaluable asset.

A further value of this single-minded concentration on the rehabilitation of alcoholics is made obvious by the Washingtonian experience. Whenever, and as long as, the Washingtonians were working hard at the reclamation of drunkards, they had notable success and the movement thrived and grew. This would support the idea that active outreach to other alcoholics is a factor in therapeutic success and, at the same time, a necessary condition for growth - and even for survival. Entirely aside from the matter of controversy, then, this singleness of A.A. purpose is a condition of continued therapeutic success and survival.

3. An adequate, clear-cut program of recovery. - Another great asset of Alcoholics Anonymous is the ideology which forms the content and context of its program of recovery, and which has received clear and attractive expression in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (24) and in other A.A. literature. This ideology incorporates the much sounder understanding of alcoholism which has been developed in recent years. It is a pragmatic blend of that which scientific research, dynamic psychology and mature religion have to offer; and through the literature of the movement, the members are kept sympathetically oriented to the developments in these fields.

Accordingly, instead of viewing alcoholism with a moralistic eye on alcohol - as an evil which ought to be abandoned - A.A. sees alcoholism as an illness, symptomatic of a personality disorder. Its program is designed to get at the basic problem, that is, to bring about a change in personality.

This program is simply and clearly stated in the Twelve Steps - augmented by the "24 hour program" of abstaining from alcohol, and the supporting slogans and emphases such as "First things first," "Live and let live," "Easy does it," "Keep an open mind," honesty, humility, and so forth. Great stress is also put upon regular attendance at the group meetings, which are characterized by the informal exchange of experiences and ideas and by a genuinely satisfying fellowship.

Compared to the Washingtonian brand, the A.A. sharing of experiences is notably enriched by the psychological insights which have been brought into the group by A.A. literature and outside speakers. A thorough analysis and catharsis is specifically asked for in the Twelve Steps - as well as an improvement in relations to other persons. Work with other alcoholics is required, and the therapeutic value accruing to the sponsor of new members is distinctly recognized. The spiritual part of the program is more clearly and inclusively defined; more soundly based, and more frankly made an indispensable condition of recovery.

It appears, furthermore, that the A.A. group activity is more satisfactory to the alcoholic than was the case in many Washingtonian societies. A.A. members seem to find all the satisfaction and values in their groups that the founders of the various orders thought were lacking in the Washingtonian groups.

A decided Washingtonian weakness was its general lack of follow-through. In contrast, A.A. is particularly strong on this point, providing a potent follow-through in a group setting where self-analysis and catharsis are stimulated; where new attitudes toward alcohol, self and others are learned; where the feeling tones are modified through a new quality of relationships; where, in short, a new way of life is acquired - one which not only enables the person to interact with his environment (particularly with other persons) without the use of alcohol, but enables him to do so on a more mature, satisfying basis.

No doubt a similar change occurred in many (though probably not in most) of the alcoholic Washingtonians, but it was more by a coincidence, within and without the societies, of circumstances that were rarely understood and never formulated into a definite, repeatable program. A.A. is infinitely better equipped in this respect.

4. Anonymity. - A comparison with the Washingtonian experience underscores the sheer survival value of the principle of anonymity in Alcoholics Anonymous. At the height of his popularity, John B. Gough either "slipped" or was tricked by his enemies into a drunken relapse. At any rate, the opponents of the Washingtonian movement seized upon this lapse with glee and made the most of it to hurt Gough and the movement. This must have happened frequently to less widely known but nevertheless publicly known Washingtonians. Public confidence in the movement was impaired. Anonymity protects the reputation of A.A. from public criticism not only of "slips" but also of failures, internal tensions, and all deviant behaviour.

Equally important, anonymity keeps the groups from exploiting prominent names for the sake of group prestige; and it keeps individual members from exploiting their A.A. connection for personal prestige or fame. This encourages humility and the placing of principles above personalities. Such behaviour not only generates outside admiration of A.A. but has therapeutic value for the individual members. There are further therapeutic values in anonymity: it makes it easier for alcoholics to approach A.A., and it relaxes the new member. It encourages honest catharsis and utter frankness. It protects the new member from the critical eyes of certain acquaintances while he experiments with this new way of life, for fumbling and failure will be hidden.

5. Hazard-avoiding traditions. - Another decisive contrast to the Washingtonian movement is the development in Alcoholics Anonymous not only of a relatively uniform program of recovery but also of relatively uniform traditions for avoiding the usual hazards to which organizations are subject.

In Alcoholics Anonymous there is actually no overhead authority. Wherever two or three alcoholics get together to attain sobriety on the general basis of the Twelve Step program they may call themselves an A.A. group. They are free to conduct their activities as they see fit. As would be expected in a fellowship of independent groups, all kinds of practices and policies have been tried. A careful reading of the A.A. publication, A.A. Tradition (25), will reveal how great the variety has been, here and there. Membership has been limited. Conduct of groups has been undemocratic. Leaders have exploited the groups for personal prestige. The principle of anonymity has been violated. Personal and
jurisdictional rivalries have developed. Money, property and organizational difficulties have disrupted A.A. groups. Members and groups, yielding to their own enthusiasms and reflecting the patterns of other institutions around them,
have endangered the immediate and ultimate welfare of the A.A. fellowship. These deviations could have been serious had there not existed a considerable uniformity in practice and principle.

In the early days of A.A., the entire fellowship was bound together by a chain of personal relationships - all created on the basis of a common program, a common spirit and a common tradition. This spirit and this pragmatically achieved program and tradition were the only guiding principles, and relative uniformity was not difficult. Alcoholics Anonymous was just a fellowship - small, informal, poor and unpretentious. But with growth, prosperity and prestige, the difficulties of getting all groups and members to see the value of these guiding principles increased. A self-conscious statement and explanation was needed - and this finally emerged in 1947 and 1948 in the "Twelve Points of Tradition," elaborated upon in editorials in The A.A. Grapevine (23) and subsequently published as a booklet (25).

In formulating and stating the reasons for these traditions, Bill W., one of the founders, has continued the extremely valuable function which he, Dr. Bob and other national leaders have performed - that of keeping intact the experienced based program and principles of A.A. Perhaps as important as any other is the tradition of keeping authority in principles rather than letting it become vested in offices and personalities. This tradition is supported by the related principle of rotating leadership, and the concept that leaders are merely the trusted servants of the group or groups. The hazard-avoiding values of these traditions are obvious.

The tradition that membership be open to any alcoholic has value in countering the tendency toward exclusiveness, class-consciousness, cliquishness - and it helps to keep the groups focused on their main job of helping the "alcoholic who still suffers."

The tradition of complete self-support of A.A. groups and activities by the voluntary contributions of A.A. members avoids the dangers inherent in fixed dues, assessments, public solicitations, and the like - and it is conducive to self-reliance and self-respect. Furthermore, in minimizing money it maximizes fellowship.

The tradition that "any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately incorporated and managed" is important in keeping the A.A. groups from becoming entangled in the problems of property beyond the minimum necessary for their own functioning. The tradition of "the least possible organization" has a similar value. These last three traditions might be summed up as precautions against the common tendency to forget that money, property and organization are only means - and that means find their rightful place only when the end is kept clearly in view. For A.A., these traditions should help to keep the groups concentrated on their prime purpose: helping alcoholics recover.

The existence of these traditions - and their clear formulation - are assets which the Washingtonian movement never possessed.

What prognosis for Alcoholics Anonymous is suggested by this comparison with the Washingtonian movement?

The least that can be said is that the short life of the Washingtonian movement simply has no parallel implications for A.A. Despite certain but limited similarities in origins, purpose and early activities, the differences are too great to draw the conclusion of a similar fate for A.A.

Are the differences, then, of such a nature as to assure a long life for Alcoholics Anonymous? This much can be said with assurance of consensus: (A) In the light of our present-day knowledge, A.A. has a sounder program of recovery than the Washingtonians achieved. (B) A.A. has avoided many of the organizational hazards which plagued the Washingtonian societies. The success and growth of A.A. during more than a decade of public life, its present vigour and its present unity underscore these statements and augur well for the future.

In the writer's judgment, based on a systematic study (26) of A.A., there is no inherent reason why A.A. should not enjoy an indefinitely continued existence. How long an existence will depend upon how well the leaders and members continue to follow the present program and principles - that is, how actively A.A. members will continue to reach out to other alcoholics; how thoroughly the remainder of the A.A. program will continue to be practiced, particularly the steps dealing with catharsis and the spiritual aspects; and, how closely all groups will be guided by the present traditions.

Finally, the writer would suggest that the value in the traditions lies chiefly in the avoidance of factors that can easily interfere with keeping the ideal therapeutic atmosphere found in the small A.A. groups at their best. Most of the personality change necessary for recovery from alcoholism occurs in these small groups - and that work is at its very best when there is a genuinely warm, nonegocentric fellowship. How well this quality of fellowship is maintained in the small, local groups is offered, therefore, as another condition determining how bright the future of A.A. will be.

Whatever the worth of these judgments, they point up the potential value to A.A. of careful, objective research on these and related conditions. This would give Alcoholics Anonymous another asset that the Washingtonians never had.


Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/
| 6403|6403|2010-03-23 10:13:34|Stephen|Did Bill Wilson and Eddie Rickenbacker ever meet?|
I am researching whether or not Eddie Rickenbacker
and Bill Wilson ever met one another during the
course of their lives -- during Bill's training at
Plattsburg, New York, or in France during WW I, or
maybe after AA was founded?

Any information, or suggestions as to where I
could look?

Thank you. Steve A.

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

See http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4476

Eddie Rickenbacker story in the 12&12 (Tradition One, page 131)

"Countless times, in as many cities and
hamlets, we reenacted the story of Eddie
Rickenbacker and his courageous company when
their plane crashed in the Pacific. Like us,
they had suddenly found themselves saved from
death, but still floating upon a perilous
sea. How well they saw that their common
welfare came first. None might become selfish
of water or bread. Each needed to consider
the others, and in abiding faith they knew
they must find their real strength. And this
they did find, in measure to transcend all
the defects of their frail craft, every test
of uncertainty, pain, fear, and despair, and
even the death of one."

Bill Wilson also referred to the Eddie Rickenbacker story on a couple of other occasions, see:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/27

"Our numbers are considerable. We have size. There is great security in numbers. You can't imagine how it was in the very first two or three years of this thing when nobody was sure that anybody could stay sober...Then we were like the people on Eddie Rickenbacker's raft. Boy, anybody rock that raft, even a little, and he was sure to be clobbered, that's all, and then thrown overboard. But today it's a different story."

"Along with greater security in numbers, there has come a certain amount of liability. The more people there are to do a job, it often turns out, the less there are. In other words, what is everybody's business is nobody's business. So size is bound to bring complacency unless we get increasingly aware of what's going on."

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/57
and http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1695

"I remember very well when this committee started (January 1944) It brought me in contact with our great friends at Yale, the courageous Dr. Haggard, the incredible Dr. Jellinek or 'Bunky' as we affectionately know him and Seldon [Bacon] and all those dedicated people."

"The question arose, could an AA member get into education or research or what not? Then ensued a fresh and great controversy in AA which was not surprising because you must remember that in this period we were like people on Rickenbacker's raft. Who would dare ever rock us ever so little and precipitate us back in the alcohol sea."
| 6404|6404|2010-03-24 15:40:15|diazeztone|Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics|
Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics
by Frances Larry Brisbane, Maxine Womble.

I found this while researching books and articles
written by Milton Maxwell.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DA7SmDh-X5cC&d

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

summary page for milton maxwell
www.aabibliography.com/milton_a_maxwell.html
| 6405|6405|2010-03-24 16:07:29|JoeA|H. P. Lovecraft|
I was wondering if anyone knew if Bill Wilson and HP Lovecraft had ever encountered each other. The Wilsons were at 182 Clinton Street, and H. P. Lovecraft rented rooms at 169 Clinton Street.

- - - -

169 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, New York. "Something unwholesome -- something furtive -- something vast lying subterrenely in obnoxious slumber -- that was the soul of 169 Clinton St. at the edge of Red Hook, and in my great northwest room 'The Horror at Red Hook' was written."
--HPL in a letter to Bernard Austin Dwyer, March 26, 1927
| 6406|6406|2010-03-24 19:24:18|nuevenueve@ymail.com|Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism|
Hello Group:

Do you know whether there are, anywhere in the world, some libraries with specialized holdings on alcoholism, AA material, other recovery programs, addictions and all related items?

Maybe some of the pharmaceutical companies, but libraries where the general public can have access to the books.

Thank you.
| 6407|6404|2010-03-24 19:26:05|rriley9945@aol.com|Re: Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics|
Frances Brisbane was for the longest time the head of the Social Work program at SUNY Stony Brook.

- - - -

Original Message from: diazeztone <eztone@hotmail.com>

Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics
by Frances Larry Brisbane, Maxine Womble.

I found this while researching books and articles
written by Milton Maxwell.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DA7SmDh-X5cC&d

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com
| 6408|6405|2010-03-24 19:27:33|J. Lobdell|Re: H. P. Lovecraft|
I can't swear to it, but my recollection is that Lovecraft left Brooklyn Heights ca 1927, before Bill and Lois were there. It is of course possible they met when HPL visited Samuel Loveman around New Year's Eve 1933 (HPL's only time back while Bill was there?), but unless Bill frequented Dauber & Pine's Bookshop on lower 5th Ave (which I doubt), there's no reason he would have known Loveman. And HPL was pretty much a teetotaller, besides being a Roosevelt supporter -- not fertile ground for a meeting. But I don't know for sure.

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: joeadams1950@gmail.com
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew if Bill Wilson and HP Lovecraft had ever encountered each other. The Wilsons were at 182 Clinton Street, and H. P. Lovecraft rented rooms at 169 Clinton Street.
>
| 6409|6409|2010-03-24 19:31:38|Glenn Chesnut|The outlaw safe cracker|
Harriet D. has asked us about a line on page 62 in the Big book, in the chapter on How It Works.
 
This line refers to: "the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him."
 
Do any of our experts on early twentieth century U.S. history or literature or the lives of famous outlaws recognize that as a reference to any specific person or group of people who would have been well known to the average American in 1939?
 
Did Willie Sutton ever engage in safecracking, or did he just hold a Thompson submachine gun or a pistol on the tellers and demand the money in their cash drawers? And had he become well known enough by 1939, that the general public would have recognized his name?
| 6410|6410|2010-03-27 11:03:22|Glenn Chesnut|Modern A.A. Recovery Rates|
From: Harriet Dodd <harriet.dodd@ymail.com> (harriet.dodd at ymail.com)
 
Do we have any idea on AA recovery rates nowadays?
______________________________
 
From the moderator G.C.
 
Yes, the New York A.A. office carried out Triennial Membership Surveys during the period 1977 through 1989, which show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year.
 
Also, of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year.
 
For more details, see: "Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation" (January 1, 2008), by Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York), and Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana).
 
as Adobe Acrobat PDF file http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf
 
or as an MS Word DOC file http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc
| 6411|6411|2010-03-27 11:10:40|Glenn Chesnut|The Big Book and the World's Best Sellers|
From: Harriet Dodd <harriet.dodd@ymail.com> (harriet.dodd at ymail.com)
 
How many copies of the Big Book (editions 1-4 in total) have been published to date?
 
How many copies of the 4th edition have been printed and sold since its appearance in 2001?
 
How does this compare with the total number of copies that have been sold of the Bible and similar types of worldwide books?
______________________________
 
From the moderator G.C., see the list of best-selling books at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books
 
The Bible has been around for centuries and centuries. It is estimated that anywhere from 2.5 billion to more than 6 billion copies have been produced.
 
There have only been two other books up in that league:

It is estimated that 800 million copies of the Koran have been produced since it was written fourteen centuries ago.
It is estimated that 800 million to 900 million copies of Mao Zedong's Little Red Book (Quotations from Chairman Mao) were actually bought (although 6.5 billion copies were printed, two thirds of them, roughly, are still sitting on shelves unsold).

Some other interesting books which are up there in the major leagues are:

Charles Dickens, "A Tale of Two Cities"
J. R. R. Tolkien, "The Lord of the Rings"
H. Rider Haggard, "She"
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "Le Petit Prince" (The Little Prince)
Dan Brown, "The Da Vinci Code"
Beatrix Potter, "The Tale of Peter Rabbit"
Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
Louise Hay, "You Can Heal Your Life" (a modern New Thought book, a bit like the A.A. classics Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and James Allen, "As a Man Thinketh")

This internet article says that 30 million copies of the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book have been sold.

This puts it in the same league with:

Harper Lee, "To Kill a Mockingbird"
Jacqueline Susann, "Valley of the Dolls"
Margaret Mitchell, "Gone with the Wind"
Anne Frank, "The Diary of Anne Frank"
Collenn McCullough, "The Thorn Birds"

It should be noted that Sigmund Freud, Albert Einstein, Plato, Aristotle, and St. Augustine don't make it onto this list of best sellers at all. The moral we can draw from this list, is that the importance and influence of a book often has no correlation to the number of copies that were sold.
| 6412|6409|2010-03-27 11:35:23|elephant_7|Re: The outlaw safe cracker|
From James R., rriley9945, james.scarpine, and
Ben Humphreys

- - - -

The "outlaw safe cracker" is one in a series of references: the "retired business man," the "sighing minister," the "politicians and reformers," the "outlaw safe cracker," and finally "the alcoholic." It seems most likely to me that each of these references points not to a specific historical figure but to an accepted "type" that would have been recognizable to the common reader of the time.

Rather than looking for a specific outlaw safe cracker who might be the referent of this quote, I'd be inclined to look to popular media representations of criminals who feel that society has wronged them prior to 1939. There are probably many newspaper stories, films, and radio programs that feature this character type.

-James R.

- - - -

From: rriley9945@aol.com
(rriley9945 at aol.com)

There is a famous fictional safecracker, Jimmy Valentine, as the central character in the famous O. Henry story "A Retrieved Reformation." This is a fairly well known story and would have been also known back in 1938/1939.

- - - -

From the moderator G.C.

O. Henry (William Sydney Porter, born 1862, became an alcoholic, died 1910 of cirrhosis of the liver, complications of diabetes and an enlarged heart).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._Henry

His short story "A Retrieved Reformation" <<... tells the tale of safecracker Jimmy Valentine, recently freed from prison. He goes to a town bank to check it over before he robs it. As he walks to the door, he catches the eye of the banker's beautiful daughter. They immediately fall in love and Valentine decides to give up his criminal career. He moves into the town, taking up the identity of Ralph Spencer, a shoemaker. Just as he is about to leave to deliver his specialized tools to an old associate, a lawman who recognizes him arrives at the bank. Jimmy and his fiancée and her family are at the bank, inspecting a new safe, when a child accidentally gets locked inside the airtight vault. Knowing it will seal his fate, Valentine opens the safe to rescue the child. However, the lawman lets him go.>>

http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1891/

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

WILLIE SUTTON:

http://www.banking.com/aba/profile_0397.htm

"Though he was to gain his fame as a bank robber, his first experience in unauthorized withdrawals from banks and jewelry stores was learned at the knee of a crook named 'Doc' Tate, an expert safecracker. In time, Sutton went on his own with another partner, still cracking safes with all the traditional burglar tools of his day plus a few of his own invention."

"Sutton's technique, with its variations, was used to take roughly 100 banks over a career spanning from the late 1920s to Sutton's final arrest in 1952--with a number of prison terms in between."

See also:
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/sutton/sutton.htm

It's probably safe to say he was well known in 1938.

If Sutton was Bill's 'outlaw safecracker' who were the 'retired business man, the minister, the politicians and reformers' mentioned in the same paragraph?

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

I was born in 1937 and I knew of Willie Sutton well during my childhood. I particularly remember his famous saying I rob banks because that is where the money is. Ben H.

- - - -

Original question from Harriet D., who asked about a line on page 62 in the Big book, in the chapter on How It Works.
>  
> This line refers to: "the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him."
>  
> Do any of our experts on early twentieth century U.S. history or literature or the lives of famous outlaws recognize that as a reference to any specific person or group of people who would have been well known to the average American in 1939?
>  
> Did Willie Sutton ever engage in safecracking, or did he just hold a Thompson submachine gun or a pistol on the tellers and demand the money in their cash drawers? And had he become well known enough by 1939, that the general public would have recognized his name?
| 6413|6406|2010-03-27 12:00:40|J. Lobdell|Re: Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism|
From Jared Lobdell and Dick Chalue

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

BROWN UNIVERSITY:

Start with the Kirk (and John Hay Library) and Center for Alcohol and Addiction Studies collections at Brown, parts of them online.

UNIVERSITY OF STIRLING (SCOTLAND):

The University of Stirling (Scotland) has a good practical library and data base.

RUTGERS UNIVERSITY:

Rutgers has a good collection.

OTHER GOOD PLACES TO LOOK:

The Alcohol & Drug History Society and the Kettil Bruun Society (both with listservs online) and Loran Archer's Alcohol Reports website might be able to provide information.

- - - -

From: Dick Chalue <dickchalue@yahoo.com>
(dickchalue at yahoo.com)

THE G.S.O. ARCHIVES AT A.A. NEW YORK HEADQUARTERS
has certain kinds of items, such as copies of Bill
W's correspondence and official AA correspondence
with members and groups.

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=21

- - - -

The original question from <nuevenueve@ymail.com>
(nuevenueve at ymail.com)

Do you know whether there are, anywhere in the world, some libraries with specialized holdings on alcoholism, AA material, other recovery programs, addictions and all related items?

Maybe some of the pharmaceutical companies, but libraries where the general public can have access to the books.
| 6414|6406|2010-03-27 12:03:49|Charlie C|Re: Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism|
One simple and freely available way to see what libraries have is to use http://www.worldcat.org/. This is the free public version of a shared cataloging database long used by public, academic and other libraries. You can do searches and narrow down to libraries in your zip code region etc.

Most libraries are open to the public, but it is always a good idea to call first re access and hours - the worldcat service above gives contact info. Some college libraries allow borrowing of books by community users, generally by purchasing some sort of courtesy user card, fees vary - we charge $25 a year where I am.

You can also get books from other libraries through inter-library loan - use the worldcat record info to make your request thru your local public library. Depending on the library, they may charge a small fee for each request.


Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

"A flittin stane gaithers nae fog"
| 6415|6415|2010-03-27 12:05:03|Fiona Dodd|Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol|
"Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol," by STEVEN CARROLL

AN ABILITY to avoid the politics surrounding alcohol consumption and a
leadership structure described as "benign anarchy" are two of the reasons
why Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) has thrived since it arrived here over 70
years ago, according to the author of a new book on the group.

Trinity College Dublin academic Shane Butler said the AA's "inverted
pyramid" style of governance has helped it to avoid many of the pitfalls
that political and religious institutions have encountered since it was
established here in 1946.

"They don't get distracted by institutions," he said. "What they have done
is kept their eye on the ball from a point of view of following its only
purpose - to help people who are absolutely flattened by alcohol
consumption.

"It survived through a policy of never getting involved in alcohol politics
. . . they don't contribute to debate or try to tell you whether or not the
pubs in Limerick should be open on Good Friday or anything like that."

While researching the book, Benign Anarchy - Alcoholics Anonymous in
Ireland, Mr Butler said he learned that the concept of alcoholism was little
known when returning Irish-American Conor Flynn moved here to help establish
a branch of the AA in 1946.

"He was told by the public that there were no alcoholics in the Free State
and that you might have found some if you'd gone up to the North."

Mr Butler said the AA, which has no direct leadership but simply follows a
spiritual 12-step programme, seemed destined to collapse. "It's a bit like
comparing it to the Fenians in 19th-century Ireland or modern-day organised
crime," he said.

"It looks like it couldn't survive as there's no leadership or top-level
telling local cumanns what to do, but it has worked and proved itself
extremely robust."

At the launch of the book last night, Diarmaid Ferriter, professor of modern
Irish history at UCD, said the AA intersected health and religion and was
one of few things to arrive here between the 1940s and 1960s that was not
challenged by then archbishop of Dublin, Dr John Charles McQuaid.
| 6416|6416|2010-04-05 18:59:28|Glenn Chesnut|When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25|
From: "Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson" 
<info@steppingstones.org> (info at steppingstones.org)
 
"When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story"
 
Irvington Town Hall Theater
85 Main Street
Irvington, New York 10533
 
Special showing with the author Bill Borchert as our guest. Question and answer with the author, archival exhibit, refreshments.

The program begins at 8 p.m., Sunday, April 25, 2010; the video begins at 9 p.m.
 
Free admission, no reservation needed, but seating is limited, so get there early.

Drive or take Metro-North Railroad to Irvington (on the east bank of the Hudson River, north of the Bronx and Yonkers).

For more information, go to http://www.steppingstones.org or call (914) 232-4822.
______________________________________
 
OR WATCH IT AT HOME
 
Hallmark Hall of Fame
WHEN LOVE IS NOT ENOUGH
Winona ryder and Barry Pepper
CBS Television
Sunday, April 25, 2010
9:00 p.m. Eastern time
8:00 p.m. Central time
 
The video "is based on the true story of the tested but enduring bond between Bill and Lois Wilson, respective co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon Family Groups.
 
In 1914, Lois Burnham, a young woman from an affluent family, fell in love with Bill Wilson, a young man of modest means.  They married in 1918, and after his return from war, they set out to build a life together.

While Lois worked, Bill struggled to find his niche.  She believed he was destined for greatness, and despite his increasing reliance on alcohol, she showered him with love and support.  After brief periods of success, Bill's addiction to alcohol spiraled out of control until his job, their lifestyle and their dreams were gone.
 
In late 1934, after years of covering for Bill and trying to manage his illness by herself, Lois witnessed Bill get and stay sober - not because of her but with the support of fellow alcoholics.
 
As Bill attained lasting sobriety and co-founded AA, Lois was surprised to feel neglected, isolated and resentful.  She was not alone in these feelings.  There were many - wives, husbands, sisters, brothers - whose lives and relationships had been devastated because of their loved ones' alcoholism.  With them she began to apply the principles of AA to her own emotional recovery and co-founded Al-Anon Family Groups in 1951.
 
Together Lois and Bill Wilson nurtured movements that have helped millions of people around the world. And together they've given the world a noble and inspiring love story."
| 6417|6417|2010-04-05 19:00:04|ckbudnick|1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet|
Has the pamphlet "This Is AA" changed between
it first being published in 1970 and now? Does
anyone know where a copy of the 1970 pamphlet
can be viewed?

Thanks,

Chris
Raleigh, NC
| 6418|6418|2010-04-05 19:08:50|Craig Keith|Dr. Bob on Anonymity|
Is this in fact anything that Dr. Bob actually
wrote or spoke, in these exact words? Or is this
somebody else trying to put their own words into
Dr. Bob's mouth?

I've searched the group message archives trying
to find some valid historical source where it
is attributed to Dr. Bob, but without success:
____________________________________

"Since our Tradition on anonymity designates the exact level where the line should be held, it must be obvious to everyone who can read and understand the English language that to maintain anonymity at any other level is definitely a violation of the Tradition.

The AA who hides his identity from his fellow AA by using only a given name violates the Tradition just as much as the AA who permits his name to appear in the press in connection with matters pertaining to AA.

The former is maintaining his anonymity above the level of press, radio, and films, and the latter is maintaining his anonymity below the level of press, radio, and films-whereas the Tradition states that we should maintain our anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films."
____________________________________

If Dr. Bob actually DID say this, in these exact
words, can someone give the historical source?

With gratitude,
Craig Keith
Wimberley, Texas
| 6419|6419|2010-04-05 19:13:46|priscilla_semmens|Article by Bill W. or Dr. Bob on corrections?|
Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob ever write an article
about carrying the A.A. message to corrections
facilities? (Prisons, jails, penitentiaries,
detention facilities, etc.)

Thanks for your help
| 6420|6420|2010-04-05 20:09:37|jim.alhandy|Modern A.A. success rate|
Dear A.A. History Lovers, my name is Jim Alhandy
and I have been a sober member of A.A. since
1-2-90. I know I am supposed to stop fighting
anything or anyone, but this one has me ready
to go to the mountain. It is a question that
has the hair on the back of my neck standing on
edge.

Three times in two days, I heard at three different
meetings, that there is literature out of New York
that states only "2 or 3% of the people that come
to A.A. stay sober."

I read A.A. literature and do not believe this
is in print in any A.A. literature anywhere. The
Big Book says in the forward, on page xx, that
"of Alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried,
50% got sober at once," and as you know it says
on page 58, "Rarely have we seen a person fail
who has thoroughly followed our path...."

To me the key words are "and really tried" and
"thoroughly followed". I have definitions of my
own for those two terms.

I truly believe with all my heart, that it is my
job, as a sober member of A.A., to give the new
members of A.A. hope, PERIOD.

Please tell me that there is nothing in print
from A.A. that says only "2 or 3% stay sober".
I disagreed and contradicted by saying, "The
Big Book is correct. It is correct today as it
was correct when it was printed. If anything,
it was underestimated. It has been my experience
that 85 or 90% of people that "really tried"
stay sober.

I love A.A. Please help me. Please respond to
<jimalhandy@gmail.com> (jimalhandy at gmail.com).

Thank You,
Jim Alhandy
See you in Texas
| 6421|6420|2010-04-05 20:27:30|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Modern A.A. success rate|
Jim,

You are certainly correct. There is absolutely no literature coming from the New York GSO stating that only "2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober."

If you want further verification, phone New York and ask them for yourself:

A.A. General Services Board, 475 Riverside Dr Ste 832, New York, NY.
Phone 212-870-3400

And you might write their phone number down on a piece of paper, and hand it to anybody you run into who is repeating that kind of nonsense. Because as you say, it that false statement were true, it would cut the heart out of AA's promise of freedom from slavery to alcohol.

- - - -

There are actually two questions here.

(1) What percentage of the people who go to two or three AA meetings end up staying with the program, and gaining long term sobriety?

The official New York A.A. figures were assembled in a series of Triennial Surveys, made every three years, and published by New York.

See Message 6410, which was posted up just a little over a week ago:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6410

You can read the article to which it refers as an Adobe Acrobat file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf
or as an MS Word file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

These A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. And of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year.

According to the really old timers in my part of the U.S. -- I have asked a large number of them this question, and they universally agree -- THE PEOPLE WHO GO BACK OUT AND DRINK are, 90% to 95% of the time, the people WHO QUIT ATTENDING MEETINGS and quit trying to work the program.

If you have severe diabetes, then the combination of insulin injections and watching your diet will do a lot of good, but if you quit the insulin shots and start pigging out on chocolate cake again, you will get very ill -- not because modern medicine "does not work," but because you stopped following the doctors' recommendations.

It's time to quit blaming A.A. if people go to a few meetings, pay no attention to what is said, put out no effort, and then disappear and go back to drinking again.

If you take three or four violin lessons, refuse to practice the violin at home, and then quit going to your lessons, then not even the greatest violin teacher in the world can teach you how to play the violin successfully. Let's get serious here!

- - - -

(2) What percentage of people who FAITHFULLY KEEP ON ATTENDING A.A. MEETINGS and who GENUINELY WORK THE STEPS will end up gaining long term sobriety?

As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience -- "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the years.

(Although I can remember two hard core cases from my home group, one who took fifteen years and a term in the state penitentiary, and the other who took twenty years, before they started taking the program seriously. But please, anybody who is reading this, it is NOT necessary for YOU to do it the way they did it!!!)

Just keep coming back, and it will work. As the good old timers put it, YOU NEVER FAIL TILL YOU STOP TRYING.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6422|6422|2010-04-05 20:45:05|Henry Cox|Who is Mr. T in the Keys to the Kingdom?|
Who is Mr. T in this story at the back of the
Big Book, "The Keys to the Kingdom"?

- - - -

From GC the moderator:

"The Keys to the Kingdom," on pp. 268 ff. in the fourth edition of the Big Book, is the story of Sylvia Kauffmann. She got sober on September 13, 1939.

For more about Sylvia K., see Nancy Olson's short biographies of the people who wrote the stories at the end of the Big Book:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

On page 273 Sylvia refers to "a visit from Mr. T., a recovered alcoholic."

This was Earl Treat (whose story is "He Sold Himself Short," on pp. 258
ff. in the 4th edit. of the Big Book). He was the one who founded A.A. in Chicago.

For an interesting photograph of Earl Treat, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html
(Earl is standing between Dr. Bob and Barry Collins, who worked with Ed Webster on printing and distributing the Little Red Book.)

There is another photograph of Earl by himself at:
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6423|6423|2010-04-05 20:46:19|john wikelius|P 48 AA Pamphlet|
AA periodically surveys its members.  This pamphlet is titled:

A.A. Membership Survey

It has a lot of interesting data.  Can be purchased from GSO.

John Wikelius
Enterprise, Alabama
| 6424|6424|2010-04-05 20:56:37|ginnymatthew|The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript|
THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK

I recently heard that one of the earliest drafts
of the Big Book was 400 or so pages long.

How many different versions of these (longer)
early drafts of the Big Book do we know about?

How many of these earlier versions still survive,
and where can copies of them be found?

Even if copies of some of these drafts no longer
exist, can we know anything about what they might
have contained?

Who cut them down and shortened them? Bill W.,
or someone else?

There is a big difference between 400 or more
pages, and the present 164 pages.

Ginny M.
| 6425|6425|2010-04-05 21:09:46|Mike|An addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism|
In the 12 & 12, in the chapter on the 3rd Tradition
(pp. 141-142) a potential new member confides to
the group that he was "the victim of another
addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism."

He's finally allowed to join. Does anyone know
what that stigma was??

Thanks, Mike

- - - -

From GC the moderator: This question gets asked periodically, so it's probably not a bad idea to re-post the answer.

See AAHistoryLovers Message 1973, from Arthur Sheehan:

"WORSE STIGMATIZED":
In the year 1937: On the AA calendar of "year two" the spirit of Tradition 3 emerged. A member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." The "addiction" was "sex deviate."** Guidance came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" The member was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. (DBGO 240-241 12&12 141-142) Note: this story is often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. (PIO 318).

**Information on this revelation was provided by David S from an audiotape of Bill W at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference. See also the pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Publication number P-53, pg 30).

THE BLONDE TRANSVESTITE (a totally different person):
In the year 1945: Bill W was called by Barry L (who would later author Living Sober) from the 41st St clubhouse. Bill persuaded the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered, "yes" Bill replied, "well I think that's all we can ask." The man was reported to have disappeared shortly after. (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318) Anecdotal accounts erroneously say that this individual went on to become one of the best 12th Steppers in NY. This story is often erroneously intermingled with that of a 1937 incident ("year two" on the AA calendar) involving an Akron member that is discussed in the Tradition Three essay in the 12&12 (pgs 141-142).
| 6426|6424|2010-04-05 23:35:34|Robert Stonebraker|The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript|
THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK

Ginny and all,

An excerpt from the original "Bill's Story" can be downloaded at http://www.4dgroups.org/ -- click "Downloads," then "Documents," and scroll down to "Bill's Original Story." This is 36 pages:

http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=startdown&id=8

Interestingly, "Bill's Story" was titled Chapter 2 at that time, while "There Is a Solution" was tagged as Chapter 1. From my information, these two chapters were started in the Spring of 1938, and the next thing written -- "The Doctors Opinion" -- was produced in July of that year.

However, I cannot remember exactly from what source I learned this
information.

I can send interested parties a PDF file of this writing.

Bob S.
| 6427|6418|2010-04-05 23:36:00|Karen Reynolds|Dr. Bob on Anonymity|
Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February 1969 Grapevine article.
| 6428|6418|2010-04-06 12:25:32|M.J. Johnson|Re: Dr. Bob on Anonymity|
According to the Grapevine Digital Archive http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/ the title of the article is "Dr. Bob on Tradition Eleven" (Vol. 25 No. 9).

It doesn't contain anything more of a quote other than what was included in the original question here.

- - - -

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Karen Reynolds <karenr110198@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It
> indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February
> 1969 Grapevine article.
>
>
| 6429|6420|2010-04-07 12:23:32|allan_gengler|Re: Modern A.A. success rate|
From Allan Gengler, John Moore, and Baileygc23

- - - -

From: "allan_gengler" <agengler@wk.net> (agengler at wk.net)

AA does do a survey periodically and you can find the latest here:

http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=75&product=65

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-48_07survey.pdf

- - - -

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 2007 MEMBERSHIP SURVEY
(conference approved literature)

LENGTH OF SOBRIETY
33% sober more than 10 years
12% sober between 5-10 years
24% sober between 1-5 years
31% sober less than 1 year

MEETING ATTENDANCE
Members attend an average of 2.4 meetings per week

AGES OF MEMBERS
2.3% under age 21
11.3% age 21 through 30
16.5% age 31 through 40
28.5% age 41 through 50
23.8% age 51 through 60
12.3% age 31 through 70
5.3% over 70

HOW MEMBERS WERE FIRST INTRODUCED TO A.A.
(two reponses were permitted)
33% through an A.A. member
33% treatment facility
31% self-motivated
24% family
11% court order
8% counseling agency
7% health professional
4% employer or fellow worker
3% non-A.A. friend or neighbor
3% correctional facility
2% Al-Anon or Alateen member
2% A.A. literature
1% newspaper/magazine/radio/TV
1% member of clergy
1% internet
7% other

- - - -

From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com> (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

First editions of BB (except the first printings) had a chapter near the indexes entitled "Now We Are Thousands." This chapter was dropped, I believe, when the second edition was introduced. It states:

"It had been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so, notwithstanding the fact that their chance of recovery upon any other medical or spiritual basis had been almost nil -- a small percentage at best."

View online at http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/391.html

GB
John M.
South Burlington VT 05403

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

I am seventy nine, and I have seen a lot of people disappear from AA. I have gone to funerals for those who died by using again. I just keep going, and try to stay sober somehow.
| 6430|6430|2010-04-07 12:48:59|BILL MCINTIRE|Re: Modern AA success rate|
From Bill McIntire, James Scarpine, and Glenn Chesnut

ON THE IMPORTANCE (OR UNIMPORTANCE) OF ATTENDING
A.A. MEETINGS IN EARLY ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

- - - -

MEETINGS ALONE WON'T DO IT

From: Bill McIntire <maxbott@yahoo.com>
(maxbott at yahoo.com)

I agree!! I have seen NO info that supports those people's statement that "only 2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober." Along with good info there is a lot of bogus stuff as well. I am sure you are already aware of this.

I have met countless people who went to countless meetings and never gained much continuous clean time and many of those who did manage to stay dry were just that: dry.

5 yrs to 35 yrs.

However, I have met only a very small handful of people over the last 23 yrs who had truthfully gone thru the steps, that went back out, and I have yet to meet ANYBODY who is current with themselves and has a current experience with the steps who has gone back out -- ever!!!

Which proves to me a couple of things: (1) meetings alone cannot keep me sober. If that were so then "B" at the end of How it Works ("that probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism") would be a lie!

And (2) I am still here despite myself, NOT because of myself. Not because of how many meetings I go to, how popular I am, not how many men I am sponsoring, not how well I know or think I know the Book, and certainly not by how well I can spew a lot of "AA" stuff!

While I do believe in the supportive power in meetings, there is NOTHING in my experience that supports the message I have heard over the last 15 to 20 yrs, that meetings keep you sober! And to my knowledge, nowhere in our literature does it say that.

However, living by these principles, no matter how many meetings I may go to or not make it to, is still a foolproof way to stay sober!
Enuf of my preaching!!! Bill

- - - -

THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the Big Book, which says ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY

From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

Please tell me I misunderstood your post:

As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience -- "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the years.

While my own exposure to the first edition Big Book has bee entirely on line, and I no longer have my copies of the second edition, I still have my third and fourth. For the life of me I can find no sentence stating "Here are the steps we took and the meetings we attended, which are suggested as a program of recovery."

The only mention of meetings I can find is on page 159: "In addition to these casual get-togethers (note the word 'casual'), it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people (note 'new people') might bring their problems.

Today there several hundred AA members, Loners, Homers and Internationalists, registered with GSO who do not have access to meetings. At different times in my own early sobriety I was a Loner and later an Internationalist, with meetings few and far between.

The gentleman whose story is on page 310 of "Experience, Strength & Hope" was sober three years and three months without ever having attended a single meeting.

Jim S.

- - - -

WHAT THE BIG BOOK ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT MEETINGS
on pp. 159-160

From Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

"A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems."

"Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife placed their large home at the disposal of this strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since become so fascinated that they have dedicated their home to the word. Many a distracted wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship among women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had happened to them, to be advised how her own wayward mate might be hospitalized and approached when next he stumbled."

It's talking about early Akron AA. Read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers to see more details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read the whole first paragraph, including "scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women."

Most of the early Akron people showed up at Dr. Bob and Anne's house EVERY DAY -- either in the morning, when they sat around while Anne read from the Upper Room (or sometimes a relevant Bible verse) and then discussed the topic raised in that meditational reading -- or in the evening, when they likewise sat around and discussed how the program was working in their lives, and the spiritual problems that they were having to deal with in their life in the world.

One way or another, they stayed in constant daily contact with other A.A. people.

The "one meeting a week" was the Oxford Group style meeting at the home of T. Henry and Clarace Williams. This couple were not alcoholics themselves, and spouses also came to this meeting.

So what the Big Book was describing on pp. 159-160 -- early Akron A.A. -- actually consisted of SEVEN MEETINGS A WEEK:

(1) ONE BIG MEETING A WEEK, which was what we would today call an "open meeting," with non-alcoholics also present, at T. Henry and Clarace Williams' house.

(2) A SMALLER MEETING on each of the other six days of the week, held either in the morning before work, or in the evening, at Dr. Bob and Anne's house. This kind of meeting was what we would today call a "discussion meeting" or a "topic meeting."
| 6431|6431|2010-04-07 13:21:59|handlebarick|Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner! |
Mel B. (Toledo, Ohio) and Tom D. (Lima, Ohio)
will be present to answer questions on

Sunday, May 2, 2010 at the
"Gratitude for our Sobriety" dinner
in Wapakoneta, Ohio

Both men obtained the gift of sobriety in
April 1950, and have 60 years of sobriety each.

This event will be held at the First English Lutheran Church, on 107 W. Mechanic St. in Wapakoneta, Ohio.

Wapakoneta is located in western Ohio, about 25 miles from the Indiana border, just off Interstate 75 halfway between Toledo and Dayton, where the interstate crosses U.S. Highway 33.

Fellowship begins at 2:00 pm
Covered dish dinner at 3:00 pm
Ask-It-Basket session with Mel B. and Tom D. at 4:00 pm

Rick Swaney 4-01-1987
Wapakoneta, Ohio
______________________________

MEL B. WAS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF PASS IT ON,
THE CONFERENCE-PUBLISHED BIOGRAPHY OF BILL W.

http://www.walkindryplaces.com/

He is also the author of:

**New Wine: The Spiritual roots of the Twelve Step Miracle (1991)
**Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W. (1998)
**My Search for Bill W. (2000)
**Walk in Dry Places (1996)

And the author (along with Bill P.) of:

**The 7 Key Principles of Successful Recovery (1999)
| 6432|6432|2010-04-09 13:37:24|Charlie C|Upper Room|
Although I don't use it so much these days, I still enjoy the Upper Room devotional, and looking at one recently in a Methodist church where I attend a meeting I noticed that this is their 75th year, the same as AA!

It can help to understand the popularity of the Upper Room in early AA to know that such daily devotionals are not that many in number, and this is one of the earliest and longest running. The Daily GuidePost, a similar title, was not started until 1977 for example. The Methodist church too was then, as it is now, quite large, and very widespread geographically, so undoubtedly many meetings were housed in Methodist churches, thus perhaps giving some exposure to the Upper Room, copies of which are often set out for the taking.

Following is a history of the Upper Room from their website.

"The Upper Room began as a daily devotional guide, which remains at the heart of its ministry. During the 1930s, a group of women in San Antonio, Texas discerned through prayer that families needed a time of worship and Bible study to sustain them through the stress of the economic depression. They asked their church for a devotional guide -- a request that inspired the Board of Missions of the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, to "publish a quarterly devotional booklet to be sold in the local church."

Dr. Grover Carlton Emmons, the first editor of the guide, determined the one-page meditation format and decided that the devotions would be written by various Christians, both lay and clergy, from around the world. The final decision, the name of the guide, came to him as he heard a speaker describe the outpouring of spiritual power among Jesus' disciples gathered in an upper room on the day of Pentecost. He quickly telegraphed those who were typesetting the first issue, and in April 1935, the first issue of The Upper Room daily devotional guide rolled off the presses.

In the decades since the guide was "prayed into existence," The Upper Room has grown into a global ministry and touched millions of lives. The Upper Room continues to expand in response to the spiritual needs of persons and communities of faith."

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy
| 6433|6430|2010-04-09 14:06:07|Kimball ROWE|Re: Modern AA success rate|
THE 75% / 25% RULE-OF-THUMB STILL WORKS TODAY,
FOR ALL WHO CAME TO A.A. AND "REALLY TRIED"

Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. (Foreword to the Second Edition, pg xx)

We posed the same question to our home group with the stipulation that they had to "Really Try." How many got sober at once, how many sobered up after some relapses, and what happened to the remainder. Our criteria for "Really Tried" is as follows:

1. Did you thoroughly follow the path?
2. Did you completely give yourself to this simple program?
3. Did you grasp and develop a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty?
4. Did you have the capacity to be honest?
5. Did you have the willingness to go to any length?
6. Did you take certain steps?
7. Were you fearless and thorough from the very start?
8. Did you let go of your old ideas absolutely?
9. Did you find a Power greater than yourself?
10. Did you ask this Higher Power for help?
11. Did you take the steps?
12. Were you willing to grow along spiritual lines?

For each person that really tried (a yes response to the above questions) in our home group, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. For my home group, the numbers haven't changed since 1939.

That said, the Foreword to the Second Edition continues, "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these about two out of three began to return as time passed."

I can only presume that these "thousands" are the people who didn't try. They were not counted with those that tried. They are sometimes referred to as the "passing parade" or "visitors" but rarely take the time to become members.

Kim
| 6434|6432|2010-04-09 14:32:54|M.J. Johnson|Re: Upper Room|
I'm very interested in finding archived issues of The Upper Room from the 30's and 40's - ideally electronically... does anyone know where I might find them?

Many thanks in advance.
| 6435|6435|2010-04-09 14:59:28|planternva2000|Re: Modern AA Success Rate|
From James Scarpine, Tim T., and Glenn C.

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

You say that this passage in the Big Book on pages 159-160 is

"talking about early Akron AA. Read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers to see more details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read the whole first paragraph, including 'scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women.'"

Is it truly talking about early AA? Or is it talking about the Akron Oxford Group? "A year and six months later....." has to mean during the time when the alcoholics were O.G. members, since the split didn't take place till later. It's reasonable to assume that those early members needed frequent contact with one another because there was no "AA program of recovery" available. Yes, they had the O. G. `six step' program, but as we see from different examples in our literature, there were several different versions of those. If meetings were so vital in those early days I'm sure Bill would have made the point in the Big Book. Instead he stressed the importance of the 12 Steps. His comments about the frequent gatherings in members' homes is mentioned in passing, an example of the alcoholic's different social activities.

- - - -

From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com)

The claim was made that "THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the Big Book, which says ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY."

If you go to pagers 159-160, you'll find that the above quote is not what it says at all. The word "necessary" is never mentioned. In fact, the context of this section suggests that lots of homes had meetings lots of nights and that these folks saw a lot of one another.

It's very distressing when people take quotes out of context and "spin" them to mean something else, for whatever reason, or to support whatever agenda. Over the last several years there have been individuals who belong to groups that hold themselves out to be better than the rest of us. These individuals frequently use this "straw man" argument, whereby they set up this false choice: "Meetings alone" vs. doing it their way.

Obviously, in the experience of most sober, long-term AA members, a home group, a sponsor, working the steps, surrendering to some kind of spiritual open-mindedness, reading the literature, trying to carry the message to other suffering alkies - ALL these things together produce the highest quality of life for the recovered alcholic. Having "sects" of AA that claim they are better than the rest of us; the "sects" using their own literature; the "sects" interpreting the Big Book in idiosyncratic ways; it strikes me that this only divides our fellowship and unnecessarily complicates what is a fairly straightforward process.

Tim T.

- - - -

From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

THIS IS THE KIND OF EARLY AKRON A.A.
which was being referred to on pp. 159-160 of the Big Book.

J. D. Holmes (A.A. No. 10) describes the Wednesday night Open Meeting (as we would call it today) at the home of T. Henry and Clarace Williams, where non-alcoholics also took part in the discussions.

He ALSO describes the daily visits either to Dr. Bob's office or to Dr. Bob's home, where the door was never locked, and groups of recovering alcoholics could be found there literally every hour of the day or night.

It was not a get-together-once-a-week program, but a program in which people got together seven days a week.

http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html
J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana
Evansville, April 23, 1940
______________________________

Based on a talk given by Glenn C. (South Bend) at the archives workshop held at the Courthouse Annex in Peru, Indiana on March 25, 2000, assembled from his notes and Frank Nyikos’ transcription of the tape recordings which Frank made of the speakers.

James D. "J. D." Holmes got sober in Akron, Ohio in September 1936, where he was A.A. No. 10. After the newspaper J. D. worked for in Akron was sold, he moved to Evansville, Indiana, on May 30, 1938, and got a job selling advertising for a newspaper there. He started the first A.A. meeting in Indiana in Evansville on April 23, 1940.Around 1951, J. D. returned to Akron, where he was a writer for the Akron Beacon-Journal. He died at his home in Akron at the age of 66 on Saturday, May 27, 1961, with 24 years of sobriety.
______________________________

There's a lot of stuff about J. D. in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, the official A.A. history of those early Akron years when A.A. was first beginning .... J. D. was one of the few early A.A. members who were not hospitalized first .... But in J.D.'s case, they decided he didn't need that kind of hospitalization, so they just invited him to attend the regular Wednesday evening meeting of the "alcoholic squad" (as it was later jokingly referred to) at the home of Oxford Groupers T. Henry and Clarace Williams.

"I met seven other men there who had a drinking problem," J. D. said, "together with Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson. They all told me their stories, and I decided there might be hope for me." They conducted it a little bit like they used to do when they gave you the third degree at a police station -- you know, the bright light shining in your eyes, everything except beating you with a rubber hose -- the old timers weren't kidding around when they did a twelfth step on you!

During this period, J. D. recalled, he saw Dr. Bob every day of the week, either at his office or in his home.

"I was over there four or five times a week in the daytime, and then I'd wind up there at night. I've gone to their home on a morning, opened it up, and gone in," J. D. said. "No one up. I'd just go ahead and start the pot of coffee going. Somebody would holler out, 'Who's down there?' -- thinking maybe it would be a drunk who had stayed overnight. Anne never knew who would be on her davenport when she got up in the morning."

The early A.A.'s in Akron [stuck together constantly]. This was somewhere around early 1938 by now.

J. D. told how "Ernie's mother used to throw a party every two weeks during this period. She'd make the doughnuts, and though everybody was broke, we all brought something. It was nothing unusual to see 25 or 30 people over there drinking coffee and eating doughnuts."

"I've been at those parties when there were calls from Cleveland from people who wanted to come down," he said. "Two men would hop in a car, go to Cleveland, and bring the man down to Akron."
| 6436|6430|2010-04-09 16:34:38|James Bliss|Re: Modern AA success rate|
From Jim Bliss, Steven Calderbank, Dave G., and Bill McIntire

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

First Sentence, Chapter 7, "Working with Others," Big Book page 89:

/Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail./

These statements directly show that we do not get sober and stay that way without continued work. Work with another alcoholic, at least my reading from the Big Book, is working the steps with them. Note the term 'with'. This does not mean that they alone are working the steps but that I also am working the steps over and over when I work with
other alcoholics.

I agree, going to meetings does not keep me sober, although it may keep me dry (which my wife and family do not want to see). For me to stay sober I must continue to work the program, and this is best done by working with another alcoholic, through the steps.

I have seen people who claim to have worked the steps go back out, and perhaps they have worked the steps. But they have not 'practiced these principles in all of our affairs' which, in my reading, is continuing to work the steps. They also have not continued to (or at all) work with other alcoholics.

As Bill says in the 12 and 12 in his discussion of step six, '/Only Step One, where we made the 100 percent admission we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection./' The plain reading of this is that I am supposed to continue to 'practice' the steps. In my opinion, I need to continue to work them, striving for perfection, although I know that I will not be able to achieve perfection in any of them but the first.

Jim

- - - -

From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

No offense Bill, but when you said: "However, I have met only a very small handful of people over the last 23 yrs who had truthfully gone thru the steps, that went back out, and I have yet to meet ANYBODY who is current with themselves and has a current experience with the steps who has gone back out -- ever!!!"

How do you quantify such a statement? It was said with such authority, but I fail to see where such a statement makes much sense. I know that the program of AA works for me 100% of the time that I use it. I have a 100% success rate. That is the only one I can honestly quantify.

And even if the only mention of meetings in the Big Book is the one on pages 159-160, it is also true that the Big Book doesn't use the word sponsor in the first 164 pages. But I am sure most folks would not suggest doing without one.

- - - -

From: David G. <doci333@hotmail.com>
(doci333 at hotmail.com)

Hi Jim and Everyone,

I wrestled with that 2%-3% in my head to.

Years back (~15yrs), I asked an oldtimer about those percentages, and he passed on to me that he had read that; 3-5% of all Americans were possibly alcoholic. He added that with our alcoholic minds we probably just skewed those percentages over to the Program Of AA because we like the pain and love to live in the disaster mode.

It was enough to quiet the beast in my head.

My side of the street shows that I have a 100% success rate.

The "Oldtimer" is the only documentation that I have. Thanks to all for paving the way.

AA Love and Hugs,

Dave G.
Illinois

- - - -
From: BILL MCINTIRE <maxbott@yahoo.com>
(maxbott at yahoo.com)

This is really great information!!! Brings up some points I havn't considered and still follows closely to what I always felt. Meetings are very important! They provide a vital aid to recovery. I think most people's chances improve with close and constant support and helps us to (hopefully) grow in our sobriety but is not what keeps us sober. While early Akron was still in the forming stages of a fellowship there was scarce anybody (support) available. I do not take anything away from the importance of meetings with exception to some peoples belief that that is how one stays sober. A message stressing more importance in meetings as a way to stay sober and much less stressing of the message and the steps and the necessity of a continuously growing spiritual experience to stay sober is, I believe dangerous to our fellowship.

The list of facts this group has sent me I believe supports that fear I think perhaps I am getting a little off base from the topic of history though. For that I apologize. Occasionally I can fall off on personal experience and my history rather than learning more of "our" history of AA

Godspeed, Bill
| 6437|6420|2010-04-09 16:34:45|Edward|Re: Modern A.A. success rate|
From Ted G. and Jim M.

- - - -

From: Ted G. <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

Dear ones,

Recently I have been delving into the literature which might be charitably called the counterpoint to ours .. Jack Trimpey's "The Small Book", Stanton Peele's "The Diseasing of America", Marianne Gilliam's "How Alcoholics Anonymous Failed Me", "The Alcoholism and Addiction Cure" by Chris Prentiss and a couple of others.

All contain some variant of the claim that only 3-6% of people who come to A.A. get sober, which they further claim is identical to the rate of people who simply stop drinking with no outside help when they've had enough. I believe this commonly repeated "statistic" (amongst people who have a vested interest in discrediting A.A.) to be the source of the rumors heard in meeting rooms.

I highly recommend to all A.A. members with brains like mine (the kind that won't shut off) to read at least the first three books I listed, as their insight into what to avoid saying or doing as a responsible A.A. member is invaluable.

The authors' objections to A.A. are generally not against what is actually in the literature, but against what one hears in rooms nowadays, and when one examines the "alternative" programs of action they present, there are striking similarities to the early A.A. way of doing things .... Which I am sure would cause them great resentment if it were pointed out to them.

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.

- - - -

From: Jim M <silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com>
(silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com)

Numbers don't lie. You can see them for yourself, that which Allen G. presented to you below - then compare them

to the early years of AA statistics when long term sobriety success rates were much, much higher.

When I lived in Columbia, SC, I had a sponsor who would sit down with me and the Big Book and we would study

every word, sentence, paragraph and chapter and discuss its historical significance and value. He was and lived like

the AA'ers of the early days when the success rates were much higher. He was well loved and is missed by many

AA'ers. He was known from Columbia, SC all the way up to the top - AAWS, Inc. His primary purpose was truly

to stay sober and help other alcoholics to acheive sobriety and is exactly how he lived his life.

I believe in one alcoholic helping another,
I believe in AA,
I believe in the 12 Steps,
I believe in the 12 Traditions,
I have Hope and Faith,
I know there is a Power greater than myself,
His name is God and His Son died for my sins.

Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/
| 6438|6365|2010-04-09 16:38:10|allan_gengler|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
The Forward to the Second Editions says there were THREE groups.

From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there were scattered alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New York who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late 1937, the number of members having substantial sobriety time behind them was sufficient to convince the membership that a new light had entered the dark world of the alcoholic."
| 6439|6439|2010-04-09 17:20:17|Glenn Chesnut|1 % A.A. success rate statistically impossible|
It is statistically impossible for AA to have only a 1% success rate.
 
There are about 1 million A.A. members in the U.S., according to the official A.A. statistics.*

Now if 100 raving alcoholics had to come to A.A. in order for just one of them to get sober (while the other 99 went back to smashing cars, being unable to hold jobs, and getting into fist fights in bars),

that would mean that 99 million raving alcoholics would have had to have come to A.A. meetings and failed, to balance out that paltry 1 million who got sober.

The U.S. population is about 300 million.

That would mean that one third of the people in the U.S., men, women, and children -- AT A BARE MINIMUM -- must be raving alcoholics, running into one another drunkenly on the highways and bumping into one another as they stagger down the pavement.
 
But according to the National Institutes of Health News for Mar. 17, 1995, only 4.38 % of persons aged eighteen and older in the U.S. suffer from alcohol dependence (that is, the kind of chronic hardcore alcoholism which A.A. was developed to treat). That is only around ten million alcoholics in the U.S. -- not a hundred million!

(An additional 3.03 % drink too much for their own good, but would be able to quit using their own will power if given a sufficient reason to do so.)

See http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/NewsEvents/NewsReleases/nlaes.htm
 
Do you see the problem? There are only about 10 million chronic hardcore alcoholics in the United States. If A.A. were only capable of getting 1% of alcoholics sober, there could be at most only 100,000 A.A. members in the whole United States.**

If A.A. were capable of getting only 2% of alcoholics sober, that would still necessitate that there only be 200,000 A.A. members in the whole United States, and that one sixth of the people in the United States were raving alcoholics, ALL of whom had tried getting sober in A.A., even though only 98% of them succeeded.
 
How about the 5% figure? If all 10 million of the people in the U.S. who suffer from alcoholism had gone to at least a few A.A. meetings, then it is true, that if 5% of these got sober in A.A., that we could account for a total A.A. membership of 500,000. But that would only be half of the real count, and it would require that ALL of the alcoholics in the U.S. had gone to at least a few A.A. meetings -- which we know is not true.
 
(And anyway, the 5% figure was a blatant error from the beginning. It came originally from a man named Richard K., who belonged to the AAHistoryLovers back then, and who did not know how to read the statistical tables in the A.A. Triennial Surveys. I remember well how a number of us tried to show him how he was misreading the tables -- that the 5% figure at one place was NOT the one-year success rate, merely the percentage of the people at these A.A. meetings who were in their twelfth month of attending A.A.*** -- but he continued to insist that his misreading was correct. And then, God help us, this blatant misreading began being repeated by certain other people on the internet, without these people remotely bothering to check where that figure had come from or who had dreamed it up.)
 
Now let's look at a serious figure instead.

The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. That means that we would have to run 4 million people roughly through a few A.A. meetings in order to come out with 1 million people who stay in A.A. and get a bit of sobriety. With 10 million people in the U.S. classified as alcohol dependent, that means that we would have to conclude that nowadays about 40% of the alcoholics in the U.S. end up with a little bit of contact with A.A. at one time or another during their lives. And in fact, as a ball park estimate, this 40% figure matches up at least reasonably well with some very well done National Institute of Health studies.
 
SO A 26 % ONE-YEAR RETENTION RATE MATCHES UP FAIRLY WELL with the other statistics which we possess -- and with common sense observations we can make -- about A.A. in the modern United States.
 
And of those who "really try" -- as for example, by continuing to go to A.A. meetings for more than 90 days -- according to the modern A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys, 56% of those people will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year.
 
Hmmm -- 56% of those who "really try" seem to be able to get sober in modern A.A. -- sounds suspiciously like the old time claims from back in the 1930's and 40's, when they said that 50% of the people who came to A.A. and "really tried" were able to get sober.
 
Glenn C.
South Bend, Indiana
______________________________
 
*The official A.A. figures, which show an A.A, membership in the U.S. of around one million, are very conservative -- the National Institute of Health surveys show that there are quite a few more Americans than that who are sober because of having attended A.A.
 
**By way of comparison, there were 50,000 in attendance at the Minneapolis convention in 2000, and 50,000 at the Toronto convention in 2005.

***Let's say we have a four-year university program, like the undergraduate programs at Indiana University, only at this university, nobody ever drops out, and nobody is ever flunked out. We enroll 1,000 new students every year:

1st year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total
2nd year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total
3rd year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total
4th year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total

Does this mean that 75% of the students are flunked out, and that only 25% successfully gain their degrees? Of course not! The ratio of 4th year students to 1st year students is 1,000/1,000 (or 25/25, which ever way you choose to phrase it) which means a one hundred percent success rate.

During the 33 years I taught at Indiana University, we in fact performed these calculations every year -- although we in fact did have a certain percentage of students who dropped out or were flunked out every year -- in order to keep an eye on any places where we might have an abnormally high ratio of students failing to make it, so that we could attempt remedial measures of some sort.

In the A.A. Triennial Surveys, 19% of the people in their first year of attending A.A. meetings were in their first month of attending A.A., while 5% of the first year people were in their twelfth month of attending A.A. If we take that 5/19 ratio -- 5 divided by 19 -- this comes out to 26%.
| 6440|6440|2010-04-09 21:21:27|RacewayJay|Longest living sober member of AA?|
Does anyone know who is the longest living sober member of AA at this time? I think this was asked a while back but I cannot locate it.
| 6441|5021|2010-04-09 21:23:51|mdingle76|Main editor of 2nd edition AA Big Book: Tom P.|
Dear AAHL,
I have given an interview between Tom P. and Catherine N. (one of the editors for "Pass It On") in which Tom stated being the main editor for the 2nd edition of the AA Big Book. And I know this kind of information can be refuted by others. However, I think we should take it from the horse's mouth (taking the horse to be Bill W.). On June 16, 1954 Bill W. said at the 19th annual Founder's Day (introducing the main speaker, Tom Powers):

"I hope you're going to like this new book. And if you do like it you can credit Tom with 50% of your liking because he is the guy who most painstakingly edited it and the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions before that."

Sorry I didn't bring this source in sooner — I always assumed Bill was referring to "AA Comes of Age" — a book that Tom Powers edited, structured, and wrote a lot of. I never paid much attention to the date on the tape until recently.

Matt D.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> Message #5003 from
> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that
>
> "the chief editor for the second edition was
> Edward Hale B."
>
> It went on to say that other editors included
> "Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
> the Grapevine - I don't know)."
> ______________________________
>
> In a further message (18 May 2008) to
> mdingle76@... (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)
>
> Jared Lobdell added the following remark:
>
> "Thanks very much. My guess had been it was
> Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.
>
> I'd be interested to know which was the story
> Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or
> whose author they didn't like)."
>
| 6442|6440|2010-04-10 12:43:25|J. Lobdell|Re: Longest living sober member of AA?|
From Jared Lobdell, Glenn Chesnut, Steven
Calderbank, and Beverly Foulke

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

**64 YEARS**

The longest living in the area where I live is Clyde B., June 20, 1946. In a couple of months or so, he will have 64 years of sobriety.

- - - -

From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

**60 YEARS**

See Message 6431, which was posted four days ago:
"Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner!"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6431

Mel B. from Toledo (who is a member of our own
AAHistoryLovers group) and Tom D. from Lima, Ohio,
will both be celebrating 60 years of sobriety at
a dinner in Wapakoneta in May. They both came into
the program in April 1950.

- - - -

From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)

**58 YEARS**

This is Beverly Foulke in Tucson, Arizona. I know
of a gentlemen here who has 58 yrs. in sobriety.
Dr. Silkworth helped him get sober. His name is
Matt L. If you need more info on the subject let
me know.

- - - -

From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

**53 YEARS**

I am sure there are others with more but Bill L.
(who will be speaking in San Antonio) has a sobriety
date of 10/1/56. 53 years.
| 6443|6432|2010-04-10 13:03:09|Lynn Sawyer|Re: Upper Room|
Dear M.J.:

Have you tried writing to the Upper Room itself???
They will probably have some archival info. you
could get a hold of .....Just a suggestion ....

Lynn S.
grateful to be sober TODAY
Sacramento, CA

- - - -

From the moderator:

Yes, the Upper Room headquarters in Nashville,
Tennessee has copies of all of the issues, from
the beginning, in their archives.

I was in correpondence with the present editor
several years ago, to see if they would be willing
to publish a volume with a whole year's worth of
copies from somewhere in the 1935 to 1939 period.
But this was not something that they wanted to
get involved in.

You can still find copies of the Upper Room from
the 1935 to 1939 period on e-bay. I have a few
copies myself.

For some of the daily readings from the Upper Rooms
from the 1930's, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
_____________________________________

P.S. The church in San Antonio where the women first came up with the idea for the Upper Room was the one which I attended when I was a child.

Also see http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

<>
| 6444|6444|2010-04-11 13:10:40|Glenn Chesnut|Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.|
From: Walt N. who writes:
 
Over the years I have enjoyed the Sobriety Anniversaries website which lists sobriety anniversaries worldwide.
 
http://www.aahistory.com/newbirth.html
 
A year ago, I was wondering about the "oldest" sober person in this list and went through it and compiled the following list which starts wth Cynthia C, whose code number translates [40 = 1940 and 0313 March 13] (DOS March 13, 1940).
 
I stopped at Al M (DOS September 27, 1961).
 
I was communicating with Eddie W (DOS June 16, 1961) whose sobriety date is the same day of the year as mine (only mine was in 1994).    Although I'm not certain as to the authenticity of this information, I am always thrilled when I receive congratulations on my sobriety date from Belgium, Canada, New Zeland and many US States.
 
I thought this list was rather interesting and would like to share it with you.
 
Thanks for the great work in maintaining the History Lovers Website, and thank you for my sobriety.
 
Walt N
 
400313 Cynthia C
400511 Terry M
400815 Duke P
410414 Barry C
410417 Al M
410417 Tex A
411111 Clancy U
421010 Ed W
440610 Mary R
450111 Jack T
450613 Rosa B
450800 Cliff W
450929 Lib S
460106 Stan W
461111 Jack T
470630 Clinton F
470806 Larry S
471104 Steve H
480104 Frank B
480127 Wendy (from Iowa)
480401 Ann C
480614 David P
491231 Vernon L
500228 Leroy B
501117 Joe L
520318 John B
520909 Louise A
520918 William S
521115 Bev S
521225 Bob T
530101 Joseph J
530713 Howard A
530815 Jeff M
531105 Silva C
540419 Jack
540606 Cheeky Charley H
540828 Bill B
550427 Lee E
550715 Neill P5
551022 Jack B
560601 Bill C
560802 Millie W
560817 Richard S
560913 Isabelle Mac T
561229 Pinky H
570214 CJB
570219 Walt T
570330 John O
570404 John G
570424 Jack B
570502 Grace H
571117 Raymond M
571213 Leo R
570821 Jack C
580226 Henry R
580306 Jack H
580824 Frank H
580930 Dave H
581031 Diana H
590111 George S
590207 Ruth H
590407 Len L
590423 Lee L
590704 Rusty W
590919 George L
591217 Donald H
591224 Mike A
600104 Peter N
600205 Paul P
600214 Laurie P
600406 Jeff J
600504 Peter D
600508 Marti P
600717 John B
600725 Tom A
600923 Peter E
601002 Billie S
601027 Al C
601111 Hal K
601125 Keith M
601231 Reuben W
610104 Al W
610214 Tommie D
610306 Rosie (Al-anon) R
610401 Cactus Pete P
610515 Dorothy E
610616 Eddie W
610927 Al M
| 6445|6417|2010-04-11 15:00:59|Jim Hoffman|1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet|
I have a copy of the 1970 pamphlet in an adobe file, if anyone would like.

Please send me an email at:

<jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

We have a 1966 copy in our archives and a 1980 copy that says Revised.

I have not yet compared them, but there seems to have been revisions.
Archives in GSO was kind enough to send me this 1970 adobe copy when I inquired. The most recent printing seems to be 2009

Momaria
| 6446|6446|2010-04-11 15:13:07|jomo|AA # 28 Gene E in NYC|
Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern California.
Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time. His
story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months after
the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend, Paul
Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of the
NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA
member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!)

In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings:
"When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill
Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst
had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New
York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just
gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth
to Bill.

"I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind.
See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened a
few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill, because
they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going
to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them.

"I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three of
us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would
come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything.

But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG meetings).
They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying the
Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon
on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where
they got the idea for the formation of our Program.

"And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it
to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we are
practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone
who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person
of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he
wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of
'Sermon on the Mount'."

Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze
Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time he
got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene was
a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense. I
knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and Gene
passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA friends.
His full story can be read at...
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html

Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first AA
Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois'
home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives.

The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members
including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander. This
collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it at
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and scroll
to a download link for a Word document.

John M
South Burlington, Vermont, US
| 6447|6432|2010-04-11 15:44:12|aalogsdon@aol.com|Re: Upper Room|
I have a book entitled THE STORY OF THE UPPER ROOM, A 30TH anniversary March-April 1935-1965 with photographs of copies and personnel.

<aalogsdon@aol.com>
(aalogsdon at aol.com)
| 6448|6448|2010-04-11 15:52:16|Charlie C|Re: early issues Upper Room|
Only a handful of libraries seem to have the periods you are looking for, none in electronic form.

These would be Lexington Theological Seminary in Kentucky, Drew University in New Jersey (the main Methodist archives), Lutheran Theological Seminary in Gettysburg, Univ of Texas Austin, and Southern Methodist University.

I found this info thru the "pay" version of WorldCat, which you might be able to access at a local college library. The "free" version, WorldCat.org, doesn't give quite the same detail re dates, volumes ...

You could also try contacting the Upper Room, http://upperroom.org ,
it isn't clear to me from their site what they may have, but presumably they have a library of past issues.

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

- - - -

From the moderator: see Message 6443
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6443

From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Yes, the Upper Room headquarters in Nashville,
Tennessee has copies of all of the issues, from
the beginning, in their archives.

I was in correpondence with the present editor
several years ago, to see if they would be willing
to publish a volume with a whole year's worth of
copies from somewhere in the 1935 to 1939 period.
But this was not something that they wanted to
get involved in.

I don't know how difficult it would be to get a
look at the materials in their archives. The Upper
Room is not a library, which usually means that it
is much more difficult for a researcher to gain
access to their files.

You can still find copies of the Upper Room from
the 1935 to 1939 period on e-bay. I have a few
copies myself.

For some of the daily readings from the Upper Rooms
from the 1930's, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
| 6449|6444|2010-04-14 12:39:26|Donna Whitehurst|Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.|
From Donna Whitehurst, Cindy Miller, Tom White, Corey Franks, Bernard Wood, and Glenn Chesnut

- - - -

From: Donna Whitehurst <justme489@yahoo.com>
(justme489 at yahoo.com)

Wow, on the website listed below there is a man listed:

Barry C., April 14, 1941

Does anyone know if he is still around and if he goes to meeting? That would be awesome! This year will be my first international convention; are there generally oltimers there with more than 50 years? If so, I sure want to meet and talk with them if they are not totally surrounded all the time (smile).

Thank you for everything you do on here!!

Donna W.

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

Here in Philadelphia, the 4021 Clubhouse hosted an AA meeting in memory of Ed B. a longtime member (1/15/51) who recently passed away with 59 years of sobriety.

He was one of the founders of the Parkside Group -- then known as the Parkside Interracial Group -- formed in part because white AA's believed that black AA's should meet in their own groups.

- - - -

From: Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>
(tomwhite at cableone.net)

Was interested in this list because at least in theory I could be on it. My sober date is Oct. 17, 1959, which, coded, would be 591017. I'm a little uncertain if all this concern with length of sobriety is at all in the spirit of the Program. One day at a time and all that. . . . Tom W

- - - -

From: Corey Franks <erb2b@yahoo.com>
(erb2b at yahoo.com)

HI... I had a call about two weeks ago from someone in Florida telling me that and asking me at the same time this question. Is there anyone longer than our lady whose here and in New York sometimes who has more than 65 years sober and has been to all the Internationals as she has that you know of ? If not, it's Ruthie O.

- - - -

From: Bernard Wood <bern-donna@earthlink.net>
(bern-donna at earthlink.net)

Carl D. got sober in Dec 1947 in Muskegon, Michigan (his story was posted here).
He was just admitted to the Bay Pines Veterans Administration hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

- - - -

From the moderator: <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Folks are responding here to Message #6444 from Walt N.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6444
which points us to the Sobriety Anniversaries website which lists sobriety anniversaries worldwide.

http://www.aahistory.com/newbirth.html

Do we have any way in fact of knowing which of the early people on this list are still living? Such as Cynthia C. who got sober on March 13, 1940 or Mary R. who got sober on June 10, 1944?

400313 Cynthia C
400511 Terry M
400815 Duke P
410414 Barry C
410417 Al M
410417 Tex A
411111 Clancy U
421010 Ed W
440610 Mary R
450111 Jack T
450613 Rosa B
450800 Cliff W
450929 Lib S
460106 Stan W
461111 Jack T
470630 Clinton F
470806 Larry S
471104 Steve H
480104 Frank B
480127 Wendy (from Iowa)
480401 Ann C
480614 David P
491231 Vernon L
500228 Leroy B
501117 Joe L
520318 John B
520909 Louise A
520918 William S
521115 Bev S
521225 Bob T
530101 Joseph J
530713 Howard A
530815 Jeff M
531105 Silva C
540419 Jack
540606 Cheeky Charley H
540828 Bill B
550427 Lee E
550715 Neill P5
551022 Jack B
560601 Bill C
560802 Millie W
560817 Richard S
560913 Isabelle Mac T
561229 Pinky H
570214 CJB
570219 Walt T
570330 John O
570404 John G
570424 Jack B
570502 Grace H
571117 Raymond M
571213 Leo R
570821 Jack C
580226 Henry R
580306 Jack H
580824 Frank H
580930 Dave H
581031 Diana H
590111 George S
590207 Ruth H
590407 Len L
590423 Lee L
590704 Rusty W
590919 George L
591217 Donald H
591224 Mike A
600104 Peter N
600205 Paul P
600214 Laurie P
600406 Jeff J
600504 Peter D
600508 Marti P
600717 John B
600725 Tom A
600923 Peter E
601002 Billie S
601027 Al C
601111 Hal K
601125 Keith M
601231 Reuben W
610104 Al W
610214 Tommie D
610306 Rosie (Al-anon) R
610401 Cactus Pete P
610515 Dorothy E
610616 Eddie W
610927 Al M
| 6450|6444|2010-04-14 12:46:30|J. Lobdell|Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.|
One problem with the list for determining the longest sober living person in AA is that, so far as I can tell, none of those listed at the top of the list are living.

Of those who are easily identifiable, Barry C. and Ed W. (founders in Minneapolis and Ed wrote the Little Red Book) are dead for many years (Ed d. 1971?).

Duke P. of Toledo likewise dead, Al M. (Los Angeles founder) also dead, Clancy U. of Hawaii likewise (Dick B could give you a date), Tex A. likewise (I think he died fairly recently, if I have the right "Tex").

I can't place Cynthia C. and should be able to if she got sober in March 1940.

Another problem is that when I get down the list to a point between Stan W. (Jan 6 1946) and Jack T. (Nov 11 1946) I don't find Clyde B. (Jun 20 1946) whom I know and who is alive.

Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I know and who is alive.

Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon.

Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and who is certainly alive.

I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely hopeful we'll come up with someone.

And who WAS Cynthia C?
| 6451|6451|2010-04-14 12:50:34|nuevenueve@ymail.com|Longest living members: any of them solitary?|
Hello Group:

Do you know whether some of the longest living AA members were solitary* AAs?

Or who are the ones nowadays?
______________________________________

*Meaning by "solitaries" such people as platform workers, seamen, lost little town miners, islanders, nomadic workers, disabled people, etc).

Thank you.
| 6452|6452|2010-04-14 12:54:42|steven.calderbank@verizon.net|egomaniac with inferiority complex|
Does anyone know where this phrase originated?
| 6453|6453|2010-04-14 13:16:27|pamelafro88|Literature reference|
Can anyone tell me whereabouts the phrase about "if A.A. is ever destroyed, it will be destroyed from within" (or something similar) can be found?

Pam F.
| 6454|6454|2010-04-14 13:44:53|martinholmes76@ymail.com|Big Book foreword to 4th ed: how are members defined?|
In the Foreword to the 4th edition of the Big Book (published in 2001), on page xxiii, it says that "worldwide membership of A.A." has now grown to "an estimated two million or more, with nearly 100,800 groups meeting in approximately 150 countries around the world."

How did they define a member of AA when they were assembling this statistic?
| 6455|6455|2010-04-14 14:22:18|Dougbert|AA and Buddhism|
What was the name of the person who established the initial contact between AA and the Buddhist world? Where exactly in Thailand did it occur? Do we have any more details beyond the brief reference in As Bill Sees It?

Do you have any historical data on Dwight Goddard? Could he have been the initial contact between A.A. and the Buddhist world? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob ever meet with Goddard and discuss Buddhism?

I am curious about page 223, As Bill Sees It, which states: "A minister in Thailand wrote (Goddard was a minister in China and Japan), "We took A.A.s Twelve Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head priest (we don't have priests in Buddhism) said, 'Why, these steps are fine! For us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say that it is God as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, A.A.'s Twelve Steps will surely be accepted by the Buddhists around here.'"

A former member of A.A. was Jack Kerouac the poet. He used Goddard's A Buddhist Bible as his primary text, as he promoted Zen Buddhism and A.A. as being complimentary. He died of alcoholism in 1969 at the age of 47.

One American who made his own attempt to establish an American Buddhist movement was Dwight Goddard (1861-1939). Goddard had been a Christian missionary to China, when he first came in contact with Buddhism. In 1928, he spent a year living at a Zen monastery in Japan. In 1934, he founded "The Followers of Buddha, an American Brotherhood", with the goal of applying the traditional monastic structure of Buddhism more strictly than Senzaki and Sokei-an. The
group was largely unsuccessful: no Americans were recruited to join as monks and attempts failed to attract a Chinese Chan (Zen) master to come to the United States. However, Goddard's efforts as an author and publisher bore considerable fruit. In 1930, he began publishing ZEN: A Buddhist Magazine. In 1932, he collaborated with D. T. Suzuki (see below), on a translation of the Lankavatara Sutra. That same year, he published the first edition of A Buddhist Bible, an
anthology of Buddhist scriptures focusing on those used in Chinese and Japanese Zen, which was enormously influential.[3]

The timing of Goddard's efforts and Bill W's efforts were very similar. Can you verify any connections?

Thanks,

Doug
| 6456|6453|2010-04-14 14:28:24|Jay Pees|Re: Literature reference|
At the 1986 General Service Conference, Bob P. gave what the 1986 Final Report
called "a powerful and inspiring closing talk" titled "Our greatest danger:
rigidity."

He said: "If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A.
today, I would have to answer the growing rigidity - the increasing demand
for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to
'enforce' our Traditions, screening alcoholics at closed meetings,
prohibiting non-Conference approved literature, i.e., 'banning books,'
laying more and more rules on groups and members. And in this trend toward
rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co-founders.
Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the
most permissive person I ever met. One of his favorite sayings was 'Every
group has the right to be wrong.'"

The above comes from http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/bobp.html I
believe if someone can find his entire speech, it will have the material
asked about in it. I know I have seen it in conjunction with this speech but
can't seem to locate it.

- - - -

From G.C. the Moderator. http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html gives the part of Bob P.'s speech which was published in the 1986 General Service Conference's final report: "The Thirty-Sixth Annual Meeting of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous 1986 (Roosevelt Hotel, New York City, April 20-26, 1986), Final Report."

- - - -

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 3:01 AM, pamelafro88 <pamelafro@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> Can anyone tell me whereabouts the phrase about "if A.A. is ever destroyed,
> it will be destroyed from within" (or something similar) can be found?
>
> Pam F.
| 6457|6365|2010-04-14 14:30:53|John Barton|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
This third group of "Clevelanders" were still making the drive to Akron for the Weds meeting. The first meeting in Cleveland was May 11. 1939. This has been well documented in both DBGO and How it Worked.

When Bill said (not an exact quote) by 1937 this thing had jumped over to Cleveland he didn't mean they were having meetings or an AA group (as we know it to be now) in Cleveland but that there was a group of "Clevelanders" who had gotten sober.

John B

--- On Thu, 4/8/10, allan_gengler <agengler@wk.net> wrote:
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939

> The Forward to the Second Editions says there were
> THREE groups.
>
> From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took
> shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of
> a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there were scattered
> alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New
> York who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late
> 1937, the number of members having substantial sobriety time
> behind them was sufficient to convince the membership that a
> new light had entered the dark world of the
> alcoholic."
| 6458|6446|2010-04-14 14:35:15|truthfromgood12|Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC|
Folks,

help me to understand the headcount discrepancy below. If Gene E. was #28, was he #28 for New York? His statement below sort of implies to me that the thought he was #28 in Alcoholics Anonymous. My understanding is that there were still only 2 groups in 1939, a NY gathering and the Akron gathering. Regardless of how many groups, the BB states there were 'about 100' sober when it was first published, but as I recall, there is a footnote somewhere saying it was closer to 80 but Bill W. rounded it up for convenience or some such thing at publication time.

So if Gene E. was #28 does that mean for New York group? And does that therefore mean that if one got sober, then slipped, he lost his '# assignment'? Probably not, but it is odd claim to make. Point being, the implication here to me is that of the majority of people sober, somewhere between 52 -72 additional (to add up to 80-100 in USA) would have had to have been in Akron.

If Gene E. meant he was #28 in all of AA society in 1939, then the 80-100 count is nowhere near accurate as reported in Big Book. Since Gene E. says there 'were less than 10 of us around New York' in 1939, that would lead me to believe that Gene was #28 of anyone who had ever gotten sober via AA in NY. I further would conclude that Bill W. DID count anyone who got sober for some period of time even if they relapsed, disappeared later. How else could there be less than 10 in fellowship in NY yet he is #28?

Regards to all,

Keith R.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jomo" wrote:
>
> Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern California.
> Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time. His
> story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months after
> the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend, Paul
> Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of the
> NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA
> member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!)
>
> In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings:
> "When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill
> Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst
> had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New
> York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just
> gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth
> to Bill.
>
> "I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind.
> See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened a
> few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill, because
> they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going
> to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them.
>
> "I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three of
> us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would
> come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything.
>
> But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG meetings).
> They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying the
> Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon
> on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where
> they got the idea for the formation of our Program.
>
> "And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it
> to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we are
> practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone
> who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person
> of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he
> wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of
> 'Sermon on the Mount'."
>
> Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze
> Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time he
> got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene was
> a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense. I
> knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and Gene
> passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA friends.
> His full story can be read at...
> http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html
>
> Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first AA
> Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois'
> home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives.
>
> The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members
> including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander. This
> collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it at
> http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and scroll
> to a download link for a Word document.
>
> John M
> South Burlington, Vermont, US
>
| 6459|6416|2010-04-15 12:47:51|Soberholic|Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25|
Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.

This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian and other European languages, too.

This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with Spanish and French subtitles only.

Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights�done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles�in the case of "My Name Is Bill W."�but it led nowhere.�So far, at least.

Keep the good thing going on!
| 6460|6446|2010-04-15 12:53:51|jax760|Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC|
For what it's worth............

Gene was the 23rd member of the New Jesrey Group of AA. He is correctly listed as having 6 months of sobriety as of 1/1/1940. His sponsor was Paul Kellogg of Roselle, NJ. Paul and Gussie Kellogg are mentioned frequently in Gene's story as well as in Lois Wilson's diary in 1939.

At that time, July of 1939, when Gene sobered up there were approximately 48 East Coast (NY, NJ, CT, MA & MD) members who had achieved or were struggling to maintain sobriety. This number (and the First One Hundred) does not include many well know NY pioneers who were not suceeding at that time such as Wes W, Oscar V, Freddie B, Russ R, Ebby T and more.

At the time the big book was published on April 1, 1939 there actually were 100 men and women who had recovered or were struggling to stay "recovered." This includes 31 verifiable names from the Eastern Cities. I have been working for some time on documenting, to the extent possible, the names and sober dates of these men and women (The First One Hundred)and the details of their arrival in AA/OG. When complete, I will release this list as part of a larger effort.

For whatever reason, back in the pioneeing days, the Akronites counted up their members seperately from NY and vice a versa. The likely reason being is that there were literally two seperate fellowships (Oxford Group in Akron and the Group of Nameless Drunks in NY) until they were finally, more or less, united as one fellowship after the publication of the Big Book and the beginning of meetings called "Alcoholics Anonymous" in May of 1939 (i.e Cleveland May 11, 1939 at the home of Abby Goldrich)

There are a couple of "inconsistincies" in Gene's story that I don't doubt or cast dispersion on but would point them out. He talks of attending OG meetings in NY with Bill, Hank & Fitz. It has been well documented that NY split from the OG in August of 37....perhaps Gene is thinking of the meetings they went to at Steinway Hall in the summer and fall of 39 when Emmett Fox spoke?

He says Bill told him he was AA # 28...I don't doubt this at all but Bill frequently spoke off the cuff and was bad with numbers in general especially dates of sobriety, dates when things occurred etc. In researching the pioneers and their sobriety dates there is often no rhyme or reasons as to who got numbered and when, whether a slip did or did not reset the sober date, whether names and "place of order" was dropped if members left, and I have given up trying to decipher "the numbering systems" the boys and girls used. (It really doesn't matter a whole lot anyway)

He talks of no more than 10 members around NY at the time....I don't doubt that at a typical NY meeting in the summer of 1939 when the "Manhattan Group" was bouncing around from place to place there would only be 10 drunks not counting wives. (See"The Road from the Table on Clinton Street": Bill Wilson's Talk to the Manhattan Group, NYC, 1955)The New Jesey Group would have had a similar number doing meetings in Montclair, South Orange and Green Pond during the Summer and Fall of 1939.

Gene's story is a great look back at what the NY fellowship was like the summer of 39. I especially enjoyed reading about Gene's take on the difference between AA spirituality and the more "specific religious" teaching of the OG...."principles before personalities" was the result. My thanks to John M for recording it and posting it on Silkworth.net where I had stumbled across it last year. I immediately knew that this "gem" was Gene Edmiston from the New Jersey Group of AA.

When I finish my reasearch on the First Forty, The First One Hundred and "The Golden Road of Devotion" it will be released in one form or another for all to see and use as they see fit.

God Bless

Another Layman on The Golden Road of Devotion

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "truthfromgood12" wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> help me to understand the headcount discrepancy below. If Gene E. was #28, was he #28 for New York? His statement below sort of implies to me that the thought he was #28 in Alcoholics Anonymous. My understanding is that there were still only 2 groups in 1939, a NY gathering and the Akron gathering. Regardless of how many groups, the BB states there were 'about 100' sober when it was first published, but as I recall, there is a footnote somewhere saying it was closer to 80 but Bill W. rounded it up for convenience or some such thing at publication time.
>
> So if Gene E. was #28 does that mean for New York group? And does that therefore mean that if one got sober, then slipped, he lost his '# assignment'? Probably not, but it is odd claim to make. Point being, the implication here to me is that of the majority of people sober, somewhere between 52 -72 additional (to add up to 80-100 in USA) would have had to have been in Akron.
>
> If Gene E. meant he was #28 in all of AA society in 1939, then the 80-100 count is nowhere near accurate as reported in Big Book. Since Gene E. says there 'were less than 10 of us around New York' in 1939, that would lead me to believe that Gene was #28 of anyone who had ever gotten sober via AA in NY. I further would conclude that Bill W. DID count anyone who got sober for some period of time even if they relapsed, disappeared later. How else could there be less than 10 in fellowship in NY yet he is #28?
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Keith R.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jomo" wrote:
> >
> > Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern California.
> > Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time. His
> > story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months after
> > the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend, Paul
> > Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of the
> > NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA
> > member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!)
> >
> > In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings:
> > "When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill
> > Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst
> > had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New
> > York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just
> > gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth
> > to Bill.
> >
> > "I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind.
> > See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened a
> > few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill, because
> > they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going
> > to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them.
> >
> > "I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three of
> > us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would
> > come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything.
> >
> > But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG meetings).
> > They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying the
> > Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon
> > on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where
> > they got the idea for the formation of our Program.
> >
> > "And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it
> > to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we are
> > practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone
> > who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person
> > of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he
> > wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of
> > 'Sermon on the Mount'."
> >
> > Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze
> > Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time he
> > got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene was
> > a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense. I
> > knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and Gene
> > passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA friends.
> > His full story can be read at...
> > http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html
> >
> > Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first AA
> > Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois'
> > home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives.
> >
> > The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members
> > including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander. This
> > collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it at
> > http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and scroll
> > to a download link for a Word document.
> >
> > John M
> > South Burlington, Vermont, US
> >
>
| 6461|6365|2010-04-15 12:54:56|allan_gengler|Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939|
That's interesting. I double checked DBGO and sure enough it says this in Chapter 12:

That night, Al went to the meeting at T. Henry's. "I attended several of these meetings before I discovered that not all the people there were alcoholics," he said. But in spite of his being Catholic, his reaction to the meetings was good.

"We went to Akron for several weeks," he said, "before it was finally decided to undertake the organization of the Cleveland group. Toward the middle of May 1939, the first meeting was held in this room. At that meeting, there were a number of Akron people and all the Cleveland people.

"When we began to have meetings, there was considerable debate as to what we would call the group. Various names were suggested. No others seemed to be fitting, so we began to refer to ourselves as Alcoholics Anonymous."


----------

It also refers many times prior to that as the "Cleveland contingent" ..... so I guess that's what the second edition means when it writes "A second small group promptly took shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland."

So they didn't physically meet in Cleveland until May of 1939, but there was clearly a Cleveland group.




--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton wrote:
>
> This third group of "Clevelanders" were still making the drive to Akron for the Weds meeting. The first meeting in Cleveland was May 11. 1939. This has been well documented in both DBGO and How it Worked.
>
> When Bill said (not an exact quote) by 1937 this thing had jumped over to Cleveland he didn't mean they were having meetings or an AA group (as we know it to be now) in Cleveland but that there was a group of "Clevelanders" who had gotten sober.
>
> John B
>
> --- On Thu, 4/8/10, allan_gengler wrote:
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939
>
> > The Forward to the Second Editions says there were
> > THREE groups.
> >
> > From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took
> > shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of
> > a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there were scattered
> > alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New
> > York who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late
> > 1937, the number of members having substantial sobriety time
> > behind them was sufficient to convince the membership that a
> > new light had entered the dark world of the
> > alcoholic."
>
| 6462|6446|2010-04-15 13:01:16|John Moore|Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC|
I pondered the same question for years Keith. The Big Book came out in
April 1935 and Gene got sober in July ... and I did hear Gene say the same
thing many many times over the years. He knew what he was told, and he
believed he was # 28 in AA, according to Bill W.

However Gene was a newcomer at the time, and a very shaky one, so it fits
better in my mind that he was # 28 in NY, no matter what he thought. Too
late to quiz him again, but the same statement raised eyebrows in the 1970's
just as it does today.

Akron had a lot more members. Maybe if NY had around 30 members and Akron
had around 60, you might get close to 100, is what I figure.

Bill and Bob assigned numbers and I am pretty sure, from talking to my aged
sponsor, that they did not re use any numbers. In Bill's words from a talk
about the creation of the Big Book, he said that AA "boasted" about 100
members, and Bill went on to say it might well have been that, a boast...

John
| 6463|6463|2010-04-15 13:08:24|John R Reid|AA Oldtimers at the International and What is on offer at your 1st I|
Dear Donna,

(1) Yes there are heaps of Members at the International with over 50 years continuous Sobriety and the Oldtimers Meeting is one of the major highlights.

(2) We are also looking forward to welcoming you and everyone else from your Group, District, Area and Region, to the Australian Hospitality Room which will be in the La Reina Rooms on the mezzanine floor of the Hilton Palacio del Rio on the corner of Alamo and Market and across the road from the Henry Gonzalez Convention Center.

Thanks and Kind Regards & all the very best for a successful International, from John R on behalf of the interim committee for the Australian DownUnder Rock Solid Boomerang Group which will officially convene in San Antonio from 30 June 2010 and disbanded 5 July 2010. And like all new Groups we will be looking for Members to join the Group, to be of Service and enjoy the Fellowship & Fun and to Share the Hospitality with others. (all the work done by this committee is done in the normal 12 Step manner of not seeing reward or recognition and to simple stay sober by being of some small service).

AA AND THE AUSTRALIAN BOOMERANG, BILL W's DETERMINATION

Why do so many Members muse the following, at the International Conventions?

"We have this unexplained but magnetic attraction to the Australian Boomerang pins we and why so many of us found the Australian Boomerang to be the most essential pin for so many of us to take home from an International, but why???"

As with all questions in the Spiritual Realm of AA's language of the heart, the answers can be found via good sponsorship and from approved literature.

Broken Hill Jack said "when we were active alcoholics we used the determination streak to get a drink, now we are sober we can use that same determination to stay sober, we survived when we were drinking, now we are sober we can kick on by going straight to God as in the first word in the Serenity Prayer and be determined to show others how we have recovered and the benefits of long term sobriety will keep coming back to us, just like the Boomerang".

Bill W's experience and determination via the boomerang can be found on Pages 29 and 30 of 'Pass It On':- Quote: Page 29/4th paragraph on: - Encouraged by his grandfather, Bill plunged into a succession of activities with single-minded determination - a trait that remained with him throughout his life. One project that stood out in his memory was the boomerang project.

"My grandfather got in the habit of coming to me with what he thought were impossible projects," Bill recalled. "One day he said to me, 'Will-for that's what he called me-'Will, I've been reading a book on Australia, and it says that the natives down there have something they called boomerangs, which is a weapon they throw, and if it misses its mark, it turns and returns to the thrower. And Will,' he said challengingly, 'it says in this book that nobody but an Australian can make and throw a boomerang'

(Bill W went on) "My hackles rose when he said that no one but an Australian could do it. I can remember how I cried out, "Well, I will be the first white man ever to make and throw a boomerang!" I suppose at this particular juncture I was 11 or 12."

For most children, Bill later reflected, such an ambition might have lasted a few days or at most a few weeks. "But mine was a power drive that kept on for six months, and I did nothing else during all that time but whittle on those infernal boomerangs. I sawed the headboard out of my bed to get just the right piece of wood, and out in the old workshop at night by the light of the lantern I whittled away."

Finally, the day came when Bill made a boomerang that worked. He called his grandfather to watch him as he threw the boomerang. It circled the churchyard near their house and almost struck Fayette in the head as it came back.

"I remember how ecstatically happy and stimulated I was by the crowning success," Bill said. "I had become Number One man."

Success with the boomerang now set Bill to proving himself a Number One man in other activities. He decided that with enough perseverance and determination, he could do anything he set his mind to. Unquote.

Thanks are to God for our Founders, Pioneers and Oldtimers; those who have gone before us who had a determination streak and were prepared to persevere with the growth of AA and to keep coming back to provide a solid foundation for the Fellowship.
| 6464|6448|2010-04-19 18:12:46|Doug B.|Re: early issues Upper Room|
I have all of the Upper Rooms published from 1935 to 1960 except 4.

2 from 1954....1 from 1958 and 1 from 1959

Since it is still published and they own the copyright....making
reprints would be up to them...if you are looking something here or
there...I could scan a few....

Write directly to me at my e-mail address:
<dougb@aahistory.com>
(dougb at aahistory.com)

Doug B.
http://www.aahistory.com
| 6465|6424|2010-04-19 18:16:25|Norman Ogden|Re: The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript|
I have a copy of the early manuscript.

Write me at my e-mail address --

<etatselaer@yahoo.com>
(etatselaer at yahoo.com)


-- and tell me your mailing address and I'll
send you one reply.
| 6466|6455|2010-04-19 20:02:49|grault|Re: AA and Buddhism|
Although I can't answer your questions, perhaps group members would be interested in more recent history of A.A. in Thailand. (I've been a long-term visitor to Thailand for over ten years, and since retiring about four years ago have been living there over half each year.)

Despite the reference in As Bill Sees It, the fact is that until very recently A.A. in Thailand has been virtually entirely composed of expats, English-speaking travelers, and the like. . . not Thais.

Just about three or four years ago one or two of our expat members introduced some of the A.A. basics to a friendly English-speaking Thai nurse (Thailand's "Sister Ignatia"?!) who supervises the detox and recovery program at a "treatment center" in Khon Kaen, in northeastern Thailand... She welcomed any help offered, and began to use some of A.A.'s ideas.

Nowadays in Thailand, A.A. is a bit comparable to what it was in the U.S. in, say, 1939. It's exciting! A.A. is (very slowly and laboriously) spreading into indigenous non-English-speaking Thais. Each year recently an indigenous Thai contingent has attended and enjoyed the A.A. conventions in Pattaya and Hua Hin (a translator is utilized for much of the program). Last year there was a small conference in Bangkok partially organized and funded by G.S.O. and attended by about twenty expat members, two English-speaking Thais, and two representatives from G.S.O.

Two "problems" in the spread of Thai-A.A. are that the word used for "God" in the Thai-language version of the Big Book means "the Christian God" to them, and of course the treatment center employs "A.A." for alcoholism and drug addiction indiscriminately. Neither issue should prevent the full spread of the availability of A.A.'s recovery program to any and all indigenous non-English-speaking Thai alcoholics over the next few years.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dougbert wrote:
>
> What was the name of the person who established the initial contact between AA and the Buddhist world? Where exactly in Thailand did it occur? Do we have any more details beyond the brief reference in As Bill Sees It?
>
> Do you have any historical data on Dwight Goddard? Could he have been the initial contact between A.A. and the Buddhist world? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob ever meet with Goddard and discuss Buddhism?
>
> I am curious about page 223, As Bill Sees It, which states: "A minister in Thailand wrote (Goddard was a minister in China and Japan), "We took A.A.s Twelve Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head priest (we don't have priests in Buddhism) said, 'Why, these steps are fine! For us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say that it is God as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, A.A.'s Twelve Steps will surely be accepted by the Buddhists around here.'"
>
| 6467|6446|2010-04-19 20:03:45|Gary Becktell|Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC|
In April, 1935, the Big Book was still 4 years away from 'coming out'.

G


----- Original Message -----
From: John Moore
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC

I pondered the same question for years Keith. The Big Book came out in
April 1935 and Gene got sober in July ....
| 6468|6440|2010-04-19 20:12:55|Cindy Miller|4021 Clubhouse of Philadelphia old-timers panel April 24|
The historic (64 years) 4021 Clubhouse of Philadelphia has a
committee of friends who are dedicated to helping it stay afloat in
these difficult financial times. They are hosting an Old-Timers Panel on April 24, 2010 at a facility nearby.

Among the speakers will be Clyde B.( 63 years).

Also speaking is Liz B. (57 years) from Queens, NY.

And we will have Mary R., who has 50 years in Al-Anon.

The date is April 24, 2010, and the event runs from 12:00-5:00.
The address is 801 S. 48th St (Calvary Community Center) Philadelphia, PA.

P.S. Please forgive me if I have any of these sobriety times
incorrectly!!

Best,
Cindy Miller
> `�.��.���`�.�.���`�...�><((((�>

- - - -

> From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
>
> **64 YEARS**
>
> The longest living in the area where I live is Clyde B., June 20,
> 1946. In a couple of months or so, he will have 64 years of sobriety.
>
| 6469|6444|2010-04-19 20:14:31|Luvfrmnana@aol.com|Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.|
There is one person listed on the anniversary site that seems to be missing on the list that is currently being discussed: Esther C., July 23, 1943. She has passed away as the site list states. You will find her memorial book and part of her story on the site also.

In His service,
Peny
| 6470|6470|2010-04-21 12:38:16|Boyd|Early 1970s pamphlet: Is A.A. For You?|
Does anyone have a photocopy or PDF of the early
1970's version of the A.A. pamphlet, Is A.A. For You?

Thanks, Boyd P.
| 6471|6471|2010-04-21 12:59:28|Glenn Chesnut|Singleness of purpose|
From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.de>
(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)

I have a question, where does the phrase
"Singleness of Purpose" come from? Who used
it first?

Dolores

- - - -

From the moderator:

I would start by looking at the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, the chapter on Tradition Five, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."

1st line of 5th paragraph refers to: "this singleness of purpose"

And then the 1st line of the next paragraph refers to: "the wisdom of A.A.'s single purpose."

And then several paragraphs further along it says: "Thank heaven I came up with the right answer for that one. It was based foursquare on the single purpose of A.A."

Also see the chapter on Tradition Eight:

The first paragraph says: "Every time we have tried to professionalize our Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same: Our single purpose has been defeated."

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)
| 6472|6472|2010-04-21 13:04:19|Dolores|Burning desire|
Greetings, Thank you all for the the information
that I have received thru History Lovers. I have
a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"
come from? Who used it first?

At the beginning of meetings, one often hears
the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"

What does this really mean? as I often find it
misused by some members to complain about other
members.

Thanks, Dolores
| 6473|6448|2010-04-21 13:28:21|John & Linda Dunn|Re: early issues Upper Room|
Doug,

I wrote the Upper Room and they sent me copies
of April, May and June 1935. October, November
and December 1937.

Thought I would pass it on.

John

- - - -

From: Doug B. <dougb@aahistory.com>
Subject: Re: early issues Upper Room

I have all of the Upper Rooms published from 1935 to 1960 except 4.

2 from 1954....1 from 1958 and 1 from 1959
| 6474|6455|2010-04-21 13:31:05|JoeA|Re: AA and Buddhism|
As a practicing Rinzai Buddhist, I appreciate this thread. In the civilian world there is a growing body of work for Buddhists in AA and we are used to people twisting our structures to suit their preconceptions (such as the "head priest" notation in Bill W.'s story, quoted previously).

The five basic Precepts of Buddhism are; Avoid killing, avoid lying, avoid stealing, avoid sexual misconduct and avoid intoxication. They are a good expression of my personal work with Steps 10, 11 and 12.

Buddhism will eventual evolve to an American flavor, as it has in every culture it has entered since is moved out of northern India a few centuries BC (or BCE to use the new, hip, politically correct designation). Even when it does, it will not be a problem for Buddhists to approach and use the Steps because of the very reason given by the "high priest." Most Buddhist understand that the origins of AA through a group of Christians means the Christian themes and terms are both key to the message and unavoidable. It is not our charge to cut away the roots of what has grown within the contemporary fellowship.

Rather, in my own jobs of sponsoring and giving free classes through a local recovery center (in Raleigh, North Carolina - not Thailand), I hope to help people find the depth of their own religion in their quest for spirituality and avoid anything that might suggest they convert to my own spirituality. The Higher Power for me is what is true, and what has been shown true throughout my few decades of recovery is that the truth is found by living the principles expounded by the Steps and with all faiths. The effort to delve deeper and wider into the religions reveals more of the practical meaning of the Steps.

And the evidence suggests that the principles of AA have been shown to be true and available to anyone who follows point (c) - "that God (as you understand god) could and would if he were sought."
| 6475|6475|2010-04-21 13:58:42|jax760|Act as If|
I recently came across this which tweaked my curiosity.

"The rule for us is perfectly simple. Do not waste time bothering whether you "love" thy neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this we find one of the great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone, you will presently come to love him."

"Some Christian writers use the word charity to describe not only Christian love between human beings, but also God's love for man and man's love for God. About the second of these two, people are often worried. They are told they ought to love God. They can not find any such feeling in themselves. The answer is the same as before. Act as if you did. Do not sit trying to manufacture feelings. Ask yourself, "If I were sure that I loved God, what would I do?' When you have found the answer go and do it.

pp.131-132 Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis

Recognizing the AA fellowship suggestions of "Act as If" and "Fake it till you make it" I decided to follow the trail and the joy in finding the following from William James

"If you want a quality, act as if you already had it."

Although I find this quote all over the internet I could not source it to a particular work of James.

I found this by Norman Vincent Peale

Enthusiasm Makes the Difference p.20

Many years ago the noted psychologist, William James, announced his famous "As If" principle. He said "If you want a quality act as if already had it." Try the "as if" technique. It is packed with power and it works.

I also came across this Wiki Post

Sam Shoemaker gets the credit for originating the "Act As If" and "Fake It Until You Make It" practice that is popular in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous circles. Note that Shoemaker invented that clever persuasion technique to help in the religious conversion of doubtful newcomers, not to help anyone to quit drinking or drugging:

"Act As If"

In 1954, the Reverend Samuel M. Shoemaker wrote a story about an unfortunate who came to him admitting that he didn't believe in God and certainly didn't know how to pray. Shoemaker asked him to "try an experiment," as he had nothing to lose. He asked him to get down on his knees and say anything at all that came to his mind, addressing his thoughts to "The Unknown." He then asked if the man could read just one chapter from the Bible, from the book of John. Solely out of respect for Shoemaker, the man obliged, but fighting every step of the way. This went on for some time, until one day the man actually began praying to God and reading the Bible and other works on his own. The man eventually became a spiritual leader within his church. Shoemaker believed that this was possible because the man "acted as if he had faith" until faith came by accident, or "until there was an opening for God to come through."

The slogan "act as if" has been used in AA circles ever since.

A Ghost In The Closet: Is There An Alcoholic Hiding?, Dale Mitchell, Page 194.

The author of this post erroneously gives credit for "inventing" the "technique" to Sam Shoemaker who could have gotten it from either William James or C.S. Lewis. But Sam surely may have introduced this to the fellowship.

I also found this by Sam Shoemaker in the October 1955 Grapevine "The Spiritual Angle"

"When one has done the best he can with intellectual reasoning, there yet comes a time for decision and action. It may be a relatively simple decision: really to enter wholly into the experiment. The approach is more like science than like philosophy. We do not so much try to reason it out in abstract logic; we choose a hypothesis, act as if it were true, and see whether it is. If it's not, we can discard it. If it is, we are free to call the experiment a success."

Several other things in the CS Lewis book caught my eye as I found many similarites with the philosophy of the 12&12. It would appear that Lewis's writings were an influence on both Sam Shoemaker and Father John Ford who helped Bill with the 12&12. But one example is given below.

12&12 p.109

From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name.

CF - Lewis ..."presently come to love him."

If anyone else has any insight on Act as If or Father John Ford's work on the 12&12 I'd be quite interested.

God Bless

John B
| 6476|6475|2010-04-21 14:00:14|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Act as If|
Hans Vaihinger, the "Philosophy of As If," was
the important figure here.

John,

All of these references that you have given go back, either directly or at second hand, to a German philosopher who was very famous and extremely well known in the very late nineteenth and early twentieth century. During that period, all sorts of people read him and were influenced by his ideas, although he has become little more than a footnote or a sentence or two in modern works on philosophy and the history of philosophy.
__________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Vaihinger

<
Vaihinger was born in Nehren, Wuerttemberg, Germany, near Tuebingen, and raised in what he himself described as a "very religious milieu". He was educated at Tuebingen, Leipzig, and Berlin, became a tutor and later a philosophy professor at Strasbourg before moving to the university at Halle in 1884. From 1892, he was a full professor.

In Philosophie des Als Ob, he argued that human beings can never really know the underlying reality of the world, and that as a result we construct systems of thought and then assume that these match reality: we behave "as if" the world matches our models. In particular, he used examples from the physical sciences, such as protons, electrons, and electromagnetic waves. None of these phenomena have been observed directly, but science pretends that they exist, and uses observations made on these assumptions to create new and better constructs. Vaihinger admitted that he had several precursors, especially Jeremy Bentham's Theory of Fictions. In the preface to the English edition of his work, Vaihinger expressed his Principle of Fictionalism. This is that "an idea whose theoretical untruth or incorrectness, and therewith its falsity, is admitted is not for that reason practically valueless and useless; for such an idea, in spite of its theoretical nullity, may have great practical importance."

This philosophy, though, is wider than just science. One can never be sure that the world will still exist tomorrow, but we usually assume that it does. Alfred Adler, the founder of Individual Psychology, was profoundly influenced by Vaihinger's theory of useful fictions, incorporating the idea of psychological fictions into his personality construct of a fictional final goal.>>
__________________________________

Notice that he even influenced people like Alfred Adler. The kind of Neo-Freudian psychiatry that appeared in Adler was a major influence on the way in which early AA's looked at the psychological aspects of the 12-step program.
| 6477|6471|2010-04-21 14:06:15|luv2shop|Re: Singleness of purpose|
Also on page 232 of "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" the second full paragraph contains the following by Bill Wilson: "....Our society, therefore, will prudently cleave to its single purpose: the carrying of the message to the alcoholic who still suffers...."

I haven't seen where "singleness" is used anywhere
there, just "single purpose."
| 6478|6455|2010-04-21 14:16:58|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: AA and Buddhism|
Dr. Earle M's story is important here:

See Message #773 "Dr. Earle M -- Grapevine excerpt"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/773

and Message #3577 "Big Book Story Author Interview: Dr. Earle M."
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3577

Also Message #5563
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5563
| 6479|6472|2010-04-27 10:15:49|Joseph Trevaskis|Re: Burning desire|
Dolores,
 
How is Munich?
 
The phrase "burning desire" is a psychological term used to express a urgent need to be addresses. I'm not sure who first coined it, I believe outside of AA and from US. Iknow what you mean about being used incorrectly by many. That is how people behave though.
 
Love & regards to all.
 
Joe (Scotland) 

--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Dolores <dolli@dr-rinecker.de> wrote:


From: Dolores <dolli@dr-rinecker.de>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 3:42 PM


 



Greetings, Thank you all for the the information
that I have received thru History Lovers. I have
a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"
come from? Who used it first?

At the beginning of meetings, one often hears
the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"

What does this really mean? as I often find it
misused by some members to complain about other
members.

Thanks, Dolores












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6481|6471|2010-04-27 10:17:57|Kimball ROWE|Re: Singleness of purpose|
I have never seen SINGLENESS in print, so I suspect it is just an adjective made up to describe the purpose of the AA fellowship. The single purpose is not exactly the same as the sole purpose or the primary purpose.

Sole/Primary/Single Purpose


Sole Purpose of AA:

"Sobriety - freedom from alcohol - through the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an A.A. group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities and they have always failed. If we don't t stick to these principles, we shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone." (a statement by Bill W. which was reaffirmed as a guiding principle of A.A. by the members of the A.A. General Service Conferences of 1969, 1970 and 1972.)


Primary Purpose (Individually):

"Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety." (from the AA Preamble)


Primary Purpose (Group):

"Each group has but one primary purpose to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." (Tradition 5)


Single Purpose (much like the sole purpose):

"Our Society, therefore, will prudently cleave to its single purpose: the carrying of the message to the alcoholic who still suffers." ( A.A. Comes of Age, page 232)


If you consider "teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps" the same as "carrying of the message," then the sole purpose and the single purpose are the same. In reference to the individuals primary purpose, I used to have an old Akron pamphlet that talked about the individuals "secondary" purpose, "to be restored back into the society from which we came," but alas, I can no longer find the pamphlet.



----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Chesnutglennccc@sbcglobal.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers groupAAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:54 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of purpose



From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.dedolli@dr-rinecker.de>>
(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)

I have a question, where does the phrase
"Singleness of Purpose" come from? Who used
it first?

Dolores

- - - -

From the moderator:

I would start by looking at the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, the chapter on Tradition Five, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."

1st line of 5th paragraph refers to: "this singleness of purpose"

And then the 1st line of the next paragraph refers to: "the wisdom of A.A.'s single purpose."

And then several paragraphs further along it says: "Thank heaven I came up with the right answer for that one. It was based foursquare on the single purpose of A.A."

Also see the chapter on Tradition Eight:

The first paragraph says: "Every time we have tried to professionalize our Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same: Our single purpose has been defeated."

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6482|6475|2010-04-27 10:18:00|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Act as If|
Apropos: "If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for the person or the thing you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given them, you will be free ... Even when you don't really want it for them, and your prayers are only words and you don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it every day for two weeks and you will find you have come to mean it..." (Freedom from Bondage, Big Book).

Also, "If you don't like people, put up with them as well as you can. Don't try to love; you can't, you'll only strain yourelf." (E.M. Forster)



To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:52:50 -0700
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Act as If





Hans Vaihinger, the "Philosophy of As If," was
the important figure here.

John,

All of these references that you have given go back, either directly or at second hand, to a German philosopher who was very famous and extremely well known in the very late nineteenth and early twentieth century. During that period, all sorts of people read him and were influenced by his ideas, although he has become little more than a footnote or a sentence or two in modern works on philosophy and the history of philosophy.
__________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Vaihinger

<
Vaihinger was born in Nehren, Wuerttemberg, Germany, near Tuebingen, and raised in what he himself described as a "very religious milieu". He was educated at Tuebingen, Leipzig, and Berlin, became a tutor and later a philosophy professor at Strasbourg before moving to the university at Halle in 1884. From 1892, he was a full professor.

In Philosophie des Als Ob, he argued that human beings can never really know the underlying reality of the world, and that as a result we construct systems of thought and then assume that these match reality: we behave "as if" the world matches our models. In particular, he used examples from the physical sciences, such as protons, electrons, and electromagnetic waves. None of these phenomena have been observed directly, but science pretends that they exist, and uses observations made on these assumptions to create new and better constructs. Vaihinger admitted that he had several precursors, especially Jeremy Bentham's Theory of Fictions. In the preface to the English edition of his work, Vaihinger expressed his Principle of Fictionalism. This is that "an idea whose theoretical untruth or incorrectness, and therewith its falsity, is admitted is not for that reason practically valueless and useless; for such an idea, in spite of its theoretical nullity, may have great practical importance."

This philosophy, though, is wider than just science. One can never be sure that the world will still exist tomorrow, but we usually assume that it does. Alfred Adler, the founder of Individual Psychology, was profoundly influenced by Vaihinger's theory of useful fictions, incorporating the idea of psychological fictions into his personality construct of a fictional final goal.>>
__________________________________

Notice that he even influenced people like Alfred Adler. The kind of Neo-Freudian psychiatry that appeared in Adler was a major influence on the way in which early AA's looked at the psychological aspects of the 12-step program.







_________________________________________________________________
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/
Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6483|6483|2010-04-27 10:18:02|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Act as if ...|
PS: One of the corny sayings we hear in AA is, "Fake it to make it." I wonder where that first appeared?
_________________________________________________________________
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/
We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6485|6471|2010-04-27 10:18:47|Kimball ROWE|Re: Singleness of purpose|
If you consider sources other that literature, then there are the "blue" cards from GSO that were printed as general guidance for open and closed meetings:

This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are all here - especially the newcommers. In keeping with our singleness of purpose and our Third Tradition which states that "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking," we ask that all who participate confine their discussion to their problems with alcohol.


This is an closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of A.A.'S singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to persons who have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those problems as they relate to alcoholism.

I don't know when they were first published, but they both refer to "singleness"

----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Chesnutglennccc@sbcglobal.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers groupAAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:54 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of purpose



From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.dedolli@dr-rinecker.de>>
(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)

I have a question, where does the phrase
"Singleness of Purpose" come from? Who used
it first?

Dolores

- - - -

From the moderator:

I would start by looking at the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, the chapter on Tradition Five, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."

1st line of 5th paragraph refers to: "this singleness of purpose"

And then the 1st line of the next paragraph refers to: "the wisdom of A.A.'s single purpose."

And then several paragraphs further along it says: "Thank heaven I came up with the right answer for that one. It was based foursquare on the single purpose of A.A."

Also see the chapter on Tradition Eight:

The first paragraph says: "Every time we have tried to professionalize our Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same: Our single purpose has been defeated."

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6486|6472|2010-04-27 10:19:00|Kimball ROWE|Re: Burning desire|
WARNING: OPINION FOLLOWS

I do not know where "burning desire" came from, nor who spoke it first. But I do believe that "burning desires," as I understand them, have been with us from the very start. In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, pg 159-160, it describes two types of meetings (similar to closed and open meetings). The description that best fits the open meeting talks about a "time and a place where new people might bring their problems." This is my understanding of a "burning desire."

pg 159-160

A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems.



----- Original Message -----
From: Doloresdolli@dr-rinecker.de>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comAAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire



Greetings, Thank you all for the the information
that I have received thru History Lovers. I have
a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"
come from? Who used it first?

At the beginning of meetings, one often hears
the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"

What does this really mean? as I often find it
misused by some members to complain about other
members.

Thanks, Dolores






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6487|6487|2010-04-27 10:19:01|Bill Lash|An Alcoholic's Savior|
An Alcoholic's SaviorNew York Times, 4/20/10

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/health/20drunk.html?scp=1&sq=HOWARD%20MARK
EL&st=cse


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6488|6444|2010-04-27 10:19:47|Jim|Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.|
How about Tom I. sober since 1957.

Paul Martin of Chicago passed away last August. I believe he had 62 years.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> One problem with the list for determining the longest sober living person in AA is that, so far as I can tell, none of those listed at the top of the list are living.
>
> Of those who are easily identifiable, Barry C. and Ed W. (founders in Minneapolis and Ed wrote the Little Red Book) are dead for many years (Ed d. 1971?).
>
> Duke P. of Toledo likewise dead, Al M. (Los Angeles founder) also dead, Clancy U. of Hawaii likewise (Dick B could give you a date), Tex A. likewise (I think he died fairly recently, if I have the right "Tex").
>
> I can't place Cynthia C. and should be able to if she got sober in March 1940.
>
> Another problem is that when I get down the list to a point between Stan W. (Jan 6 1946) and Jack T. (Nov 11 1946) I don't find Clyde B. (Jun 20 1946) whom I know and who is alive.
>
> Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I know and who is alive.
>
> Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon.
>
> Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and who is certainly alive.
>
> I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely hopeful we'll come up with someone.
>
> And who WAS Cynthia C?
>
| 6489|6416|2010-04-27 10:22:41|John Theede|Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?|
Hi:
I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his drinking days.  I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same time as Bill was employed there.   Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr and Burton school renunion.  
 
?????

--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM


 



Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.

This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian and other European languages, too.

This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with Spanish and French subtitles only.

Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least.
 
Keep the good thing going on!













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6490|6490|2010-04-27 10:24:02|martinholmes76@ymail.com|Big Book Disussion group, Barking Saturday night.|
where did the term "the need for moral psychology" come from in the Dr's Opinion?
| 6491|6491|2010-04-27 10:24:05|luv2shop|Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than elec|
Hi everyone!

I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and could point me in the correct direction......


Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the district. In the past these positions have been filled through elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2 states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?

Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right research direction.

Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a treasure trove of information!!

Yours in the fellowship
Donna W.
| 6492|6444|2010-04-27 21:31:50|Jim Hoffman|Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.|
Here in Largo, Florida we just ( 4-14-10) lost Carl D. D.O.S Dec. 17, 1947 Originally Grand Rapids, MI.
We still have with us Alice S. sober since 1948 - Originally NYC.



----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 8:50 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.



How about Tom I. sober since 1957.

Paul Martin of Chicago passed away last August. I believe he had 62 years.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> One problem with the list for determining the longest sober living person in AA is that, so far as I can tell, none of those listed at the top of the list are living.
>
> Of those who are easily identifiable, Barry C. and Ed W. (founders in Minneapolis and Ed wrote the Little Red Book) are dead for many years (Ed d. 1971?).
>
> Duke P. of Toledo likewise dead, Al M. (Los Angeles founder) also dead, Clancy U. of Hawaii likewise (Dick B could give you a date), Tex A. likewise (I think he died fairly recently, if I have the right "Tex").
>
> I can't place Cynthia C. and should be able to if she got sober in March 1940.
>
> Another problem is that when I get down the list to a point between Stan W. (Jan 6 1946) and Jack T. (Nov 11 1946) I don't find Clyde B. (Jun 20 1946) whom I know and who is alive.
>
> Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I know and who is alive.
>
> Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon.
>
> Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and who is certainly alive.
>
> I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely hopeful we'll come up with someone.
>
> And who WAS Cynthia C?
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6493|6490|2010-04-27 21:33:53|jax760|Re: Big Book Disussion group, Barking Saturday night.|
Excerpt from published papers by Silkworth. Notice the use of quotes around the term moral pyschology. I would suggest we look to William James for Silkworth's understanding:

"To be converted, to be regenerated, to receive grace, to experience
religion, to gain an assurance, are so many phrases which denote the
process, gradual or sudden, by which a self hitherto divided, and
consciously wrong inferior and unhappy, becomes unified and consciously right superior and happy, in consequence of its firmer hold uponreligious realities. This at least is what conversion signifies in general terms, whether or not we believe that a direct divine operation is needed to bring such a moral change about.

William James VRE - Lecture IX

Reclamation of the Alcoholic
By William D. Silkworth, M.D., New York, N.Y.
Medical Record, April 21, 1937

MORAL PSYCHOLOGY

We believe that this decision is in the nature of an inspiration. The patient knows he has reached a lasting conclusion, and experiences a sense of great relief. These individuals, introverts for the most part, whose interests center entirely in themselves, once they have made their decision, frequently ask how they can help others.

Case IV (Hospital No. 1152). - A broker, who had earned as much as $25,000 a year, and had come, through alcohol, to a position where he was being supported by his wife, presented himself for treatment carrying with him two books on philosophy from which he hoped to get a new inspiration: His desire to discontinue alcohol was intense, and he certainly made every effort within his own capabilities do to so. Following the course of treatment in which the alcohol and toxic products were eliminated and his craving counteracted, he took up moral psychology. At first, he found it difficult to rehabilitate himself financially, as his old friends had no confidence in his future conduct. Later he was given an opportunity, and is now a director in a large corporation. He gives part of his income to help others in his former condition, and he has gathered about him a group of over fifty men, all free from their former alcoholism through the application of this method of treatment and "moral psychology."

To such patients we recommend "moral psychology," and in those of our patients who have joined or initiated such groups the change has been spectacular.

God Bless

John B



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "martinholmes76@..." wrote:
>
> where did the term "the need for moral psychology" come from in the Dr's Opinion?
>
| 6494|6491|2010-04-27 21:34:01|Jim Robbins|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than |
You might look at the AA Service Manual, Concept I.


On 4/21/2010 1:58 PM, luv2shop wrote:
>
> Hi everyone!
>
> I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not
> looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and
> could point me in the correct direction......
>
> Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the
> current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the
> district. In the past these positions have been filled through
> elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to
> appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with
> and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2
> states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they
> do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to
> "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way
> but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?
>
> Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I
> could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything
> in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would
> greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right
> research direction.
>
> Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a
> treasure trove of information!!
>
> Yours in the fellowship
> Donna W.
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6495|6472|2010-04-27 21:34:01|James R|Re: Burning desire|
The phrase "burning desire" occurs numerous times in "The Law of Success" by Napoleon Hill, a protege of Andrew Carnegie, beginning of page 55. The book was published in 1928.

http://www.archive.org/stream/Law_Of_Success_in_16_Lessons/law-of-success-napoleon-hill#page/n183/mode/2up/search/burning

The phrase also occurs in the first paragraphs of chapter 1 of "Think and Grow Rich", also by Hill, published by the Ralston Society in 1938:

'TRULY, "thoughts are things," and powerful things at that, when they are mixed with definiteness of purpose, persistence, and a BURNING DESIRE for their translation into riches, or other material objects.

'A little more than thirty years ago, Edwin C. Barnes discovered how true it is that men really do THINK AND GROW RICH. His discovery did not come about at one sitting. It came little by little, beginning with a BURNING DESIRE to become a business associate of the great Edison.' (Emphasis in the original)

Hill was the author of popular "self-help" "how-to-succeed-in-business" books through the 20s, 30s and into the 40s. Perhaps someone can indicate any evidence that Bill W. or someone else in early AA read these books. It certainly sounds like the sort of publication that might have attracted Bill's attention.
| 6496|6472|2010-04-27 21:36:54|Charlie Parker|Re: Burning desire|
Another opinion:
I believe that the term "Burning Desire" comes from oral tradition AA and
has filtered from the treatment centers into the Discussion Meeting format.
It is certainly not a requirement to ask for "burning desires" at the end of
a discussion meeting. There is a certain type of personality common in AA
that will always wait till the last minute to share. Where I come from we
say "If you have a burning desire then get with someone after the meeting".
It is also worth pointing out that in the reference posted earlier about our
early days they only set apart ONE NIGHT to let the newcomer talk about his
problems. The rest of the time they were trying to grow in understanding and
effectiveness in carrying this message to the alcoholic who still suffered.
Maybe if these folks today were busier carrying the message they wouldn't
have so many "burning issues". Charlie P. Austin, Tx

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball ROWE
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:50 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire

WARNING: OPINION FOLLOWS

I do not know where "burning desire" came from, nor who spoke it first. But
I do believe that "burning desires," as I understand them, have been with us
from the very start. In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, pg 159-160,
it describes two types of meetings (similar to closed and open meetings).
The description that best fits the open meeting talks about a "time and a
place where new people might bring their problems." This is my
understanding of a "burning desire."

pg 159-160

A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.
Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did
not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and
constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer.
In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart
one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone
interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and
sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new
people might bring their problems.



----- Original Message -----
From: Doloresdolli@dr-rinecker.de>
To:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comAAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire



Greetings, Thank you all for the the information
that I have received thru History Lovers. I have
a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"
come from? Who used it first?

At the beginning of meetings, one often hears
the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"

What does this really mean? as I often find it
misused by some members to complain about other
members.

Thanks, Dolores






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
| 6497|6416|2010-04-29 14:53:43|Arthur S|Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?|
It’s poetic license and not historical accuracy.



Ebby and Bill did not drink all that much together (save for the notorious airplane incident from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT).



Ebby (and his family) lived in Albany, NY and Vermont and Bill lived in Brooklyn, NY some 140 miles or so from Albany.



The same inaccuracy was contained in “My Name Is Bill W.”



Ebby (and his family) were actually close to Lois and her family due to their vacationing and socialization at Emerald Lake each summer over a number of years.



I read the book “When Love Is Not Enough” and it has many historical inaccuracies (I was very disappointed). Haven’t seen the movie yet.



Cheers

Arthur



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Theede
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?





Hi:
I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his drinking days. I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same time as Bill was employed there. Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr and Burton school renunion.

?????

--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com > wrote:

From: Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com >
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM



Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.

This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian and other European languages, too.

This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with Spanish and French subtitles only.

Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least.

Keep the good thing going on!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6498|6416|2010-05-01 11:32:42|LES COLE|Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?|
Hi Art and others:



You are not alone in using a critical eye regarding the movie, as well as the book(s) upon which it was based.



There are/were several inaccuracies, and some of you may recall that I did a specific historical critique of the Lois Book when it was first released in 2005. I had e-mail correspondence with Bill Borchert at that time, as well as with Stepping Stones folks who gave the book a glowing endorsement in the FORWARD. Supposedly, the publisher, Hazelden, was going to make historical corrections when a second printing was done. I'm currently trying to get a copy of the 2008 printing to see what was changed, if anything. The paperback version I received today is the same as the original hardback as far as I have searched thus far.



I don't want to further challenge Bill Borchert personally (although he has now written THREE major stories about AA history...My Name is Bill, The Lois Wilson Story, and this movie: When Love Is Not Enough), but I do want to let AA historians know what I personally know about the Burnhams, and Vermont AA history...thus my own book, in a few months, which covers such things.



Today I got a paperback, thinking it was a new printing, but it shows the original 2005 text.



My concern, as a current historian, is that it is very likely that such distortions will be taken as facts (good history) unless we Do

share our concerns, and with members of AAHL particularly, because we can share openly as a closed group. Borchert enjoys a lot of special support in getting out his messages, and I'm sure that many folks will think he is the one to believe. That makes me rather sad!



During the movie I lost track of just what time-frames were associated with certain scenes, but I recall that Rogers (Lois' brother) was in the scene where Ebby was depicted in the kitchen talking with Bill. If that is so, then there is specific inaccuracy there. We all know that Ebby had that talk in 1934. Well, in 1932-34 Rog was living with my family continuously in Wallingford, Vermont. Rog went to live in his family house in Manchester shortly after the 1929 crash. He was working in a small woodworking mill in Vermont. That is where my father met him and thus we became a "family" together for years. Also, In 1933 my brother and I visited in Ebby's house (next door to us) with him in Manchester. His court troubles started at that time. He didn't go to NYC until just before that 1934 kitchen meeting. He was staying with Rowland Hazard in Glastenbury, VT just before going to NYC.



Another item which we all might want to consider is: the oft-repeated story about Ebby being a classmate of Bill at Burr & Burton Seminary in Manchester. In 2007 I went to talk with the archivist at B&B when I was researching my book, and learned there is no record of Ebby ever being a student there.(?) That doesn't mean that he wasn't, just because records are scarce, but I do have my mother's actual B&B catalog for years 1911-12 listing student names, and Ebby's name is not there. (My mother was a high school classmate of Bill at Burr and Burton. She graduated in 1912, but Bill didn't until 1913, after much travail.)



Another bit of book-minutia relates to the oft-mentioned airplane trip which Ebby and Bill took from Albany to Manchester to appear before the welcoming committee at the opening of the new airport. Last August while I was again in Vermont doing research, I found

among the Manchester Journal newspaper archives, the article (with a picture) of the Inaugural Landing ...and it was made by a well-known pilot from Boston on July 4, 1928.

These may seem as minutia, but they are examples of how the public may be impressed by poor history, rather than real history.



GLENN: I hope you will encourage more dialogue on this subject of historical accuracy.



Les Cole

Colorado Springs, CO





To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: arthur.s@live.com
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:00:26 -0500
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?






It�s poetic license and not historical accuracy.

Ebby and Bill did not drink all that much together (save for the notorious airplane incident from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT).

Ebby (and his family) lived in Albany, NY and Vermont and Bill lived in Brooklyn, NY some 140 miles or so from Albany.

The same inaccuracy was contained in �My Name Is Bill W.�

Ebby (and his family) were actually close to Lois and her family due to their vacationing and socialization at Emerald Lake each summer over a number of years.

I read the book �When Love Is Not Enough� and it has many historical inaccuracies (I was very disappointed). Haven�t seen the movie yet.

Cheers

Arthur

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Theede
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?

Hi:
I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his drinking days. I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same time as Bill was employed there. Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr and Burton school renunion.

?????

--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com > wrote:

From: Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com >
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM

Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.

This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian and other European languages, too.

This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with Spanish and French subtitles only.

Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least.

Keep the good thing going on!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6499|6499|2010-05-02 11:16:51|doclandis@aol.com|minority voice report|
I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice
report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings.

The question arose from a vote that was recently taken in our District
Meeting regarding an AA function over the Founders Day weekend that
includes
a history skit, and then a spaghetti dinner. Apparently a few members
felt
it was not OK for the District to ask for donations to cover the cost of
the
meal, and when the project was approved by a vote of 5-2, those who did
not
support the project have demanded a "minority voice report" at the
following
months meeting.

While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall
any
such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3
vote.
I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was
hoping
someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting
protocol.

thanks,


Mark in the North Georgia Mountains


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6500|6500|2010-05-02 11:17:00|bbthumpthump|Original draft of Bill's Story|
I got this from someone who said he got it from an un-named archivist. Can anyone verify that this is an early draft of Bill's Story.

THE ORIGINAL "BILL'S STORY"

This is the first printed draft of the Big Book, which was mailed to various individuals for their comments and also as a fund raising tool. It is unclear at what time during the writing of the Big Book "Bill's Story" became chapter one. The language in this draft is in many ways different than the final manuscript. This illustrates the process of having many individuals add their opinions to the contents.

[archivist's note: All pages are 8.5" by 14"; marked text (underlined) means more than one letter was typed over another, or text was crossed out with x's though still readable]

[handwriting: "Wilson's original story"]

Pag
Page 1.
1. When I was about ten years old my Father and mother
2. agreed to disagree and I went to live with my Grandfather,
3. and Grandmother. He was a retired farmer and lumberman. As I
4. see him in retrospect, he was a very remarkable man After he
5. returned from Civil War he settled in the small Vermont
6. town where I was later to grow up. His original capital con-
7. sisted of a small, unimproved hillside farm, as sweet and
8. willing helpmeet, and enormous determination to succeed in
9. whatever he attempted. He was a man of high native intelli-
10. gence, a voracious reader, though little educated in the
11. school sense of the word. There was plenty of financial
12. sense in his make-up and he was a man of real vision. Under
13. other conditions he might well have become master of an in-
14. dustry or railroad empire.
15. My Grandmother brought into the world three children,
16. one of whom was my Mother. I can still seem to hear her tell-
17. ing of the struggle of those early days. Such matters as
18. cooking for twenty woodchoppers, looking after the diary,
19. making most of the clothes for the family, long winter rides
20. at twenty below zero to fetch my Grandfather home over snow-
21. bound roads, seeing him of long before daylight that he and
22. the choppers might have their access thawed out so that work
23. might begin on the mountaintop at daylight- this is the thought
24. of tradition upon which they nourished me. They finally
25. achieved their competence and retired late in life to enjoy
26. a well earned rest and the respect and affection of their

Page 2.
27. neighbors. They were the sort of people, I see now, who
28. really made America.
29. But I had other ideas - much bigger and better ones
30. so I thought. I was to be of the war generation which dis-
31. ipated the homely virtues, the hard earned savings, the
32. pioneering tradition, and the incredible stamina of your parents
parents
33. Grandfather and mine.
34. I too was ambitious - very ambitious, but very un-
35. disciplined. In spite of everyone's effort to correct that con-
36. dition. I had a genius for evading, postponing or shirking
37. those things which I did not like to do, but when thoroughly
38. interested, everything I had was thrown into the pursuit of
39. my objective. My will to succeed at special undertakings on
40. which my heart were set was very great. There was a persis-
41. tence, a patience, and a dogged obstinacy, that drove me on.
42. My Grandfather used to love to argue with me with the object
43. of convincing me of the impossibility of some venture or
44. another in order to enjoy watching me 'tilt at the windmill'
45. he had erected. One day he said to me - I have just been
46. reading that no one in the world but an Australian can make
47. and throw a boomerang. This spark struck tinder and every-
48. thing and every activity was instantly laid aside until it
49. could be demonstrated that he was mistaken. The woodbox was
50. not filled, no school work was done, nor could I hardly be
51. persuaded to eat or to go to bed. After a month or more of
52. this thing a boomerang was constructed which I threw around

Page 3.
53. the church steeple. On its return trip it went into trans-
54. ports of joy because it all but decapitated my Grandfather
55. who stood near me.
56. I presently left the country school and fared forth
57. into the great world I had read about in books. My first
58. journey took me only five miles to an adjoining town where I
59. commenced to attend a seminary well known in our section of
60. the state. Here competition was much more severe and I was
61. challenged on all sides to do the seemingly impossible. There
62. was the matter of athletics and I was soon burning with the
63. ambition to become a great baseball player. This was pretty
64. discouraging to begin with, as I was tall for my age, quite
65. awkward, and not very fast on my feed, but I literally worked
66. at it while others slept or otherwise amused themselves and
67. in my second year became captain of the team, whereupon my
68. interest began to languish, for by that time someone had told
69. me I had no ear for music, which I have since discovered is
70. almost true. Despite obstacles I managed to appear in a few
71. song recitals whereupon my interest in singing disappeared
72. and I got terribly serious about learning to play the violin.
73. This grew into a real obsession and to the consternation of
74. my teachers, grew in the last year and everyone else it be-
75. came the immediate cause of my failing to graduate. This was
76. my first great catastrophe. By this time I had become Presi-
77. dent of the class which only made matters worse. As in every
78. thing else I had even very good in certain courses of study

Page 4.
79. which took my fancy, and with others just the opposite,
80. indolence and indifference, being the rule, So it was that
81. the legend of infallibility I had built up around myself
82. collapsed.
83. In the ensuing summer I was obliged for the first
84. time to really address myself to the distasteful task of re-
85. pairing my failure. Although my diploma was now in hand, it
86. was by no means clear to my grandparents and parents what
87. they had better next try to do with me. Because of my interest
88. in scientific matters and the liking I had to fussing with
89. gadgets and chemicals, it had been assumed that I was to be
90. an engineer, and my own learnings were towards the electrical
91. branch of the profession. So I went to Boston and took the
92. entrance examination to one of the leading technical schools
93. in this country. For obvious reasons I failed utterly. It
94. was a rather heartbreaking matter for those interested in me
95. and it gave my self-sufficiency another severe deflation.
96. Finally an entrance was effected at an excellent
97. military college where it was hoped I would really be disci-
98. plined. I attended the University for almost three years
99. and would have certainly failed to graduate or come anywhere
100. near qualifying as an engineer, because of my laziness and
101. weakness mathematics. Particularly Calculus, in this
102. subject a great number of formulas have to be learned and
103. the application practiced. I remembered that I absolutely
104. refused to learn any of them or do any of the work whatever

Page 5.
105. until the general principles underlying the subject had
106. been made clear to me. The instructor was very patient,
107. but finally through up his hands in disgust as I began to
108. argue with him and to hint pretty strongly that perhaps he
109. didn't quite understand them himself. So I commenced an in-
110. vestigation of the principles underlying Calculus in the
111. school library and learned something of the conceptions of
112. the great minds of Leibneitz and Newton whose genius had
113. made possible this useful and novel mathematical device.
114. Thus armed I mastered the first problem in the textbook and
115. commenced a fresh controversy with my teacher, who angrily,
116. but quite properly, gave me a zero for the course. Fortunate-
117. ly for my future at the University, I soon enabled to
118. leave the place gracefully, even heroically, for the
119. United States of America had gone to war.
120. Being students of a military academy school
121. the student boy almost to a man bolted for the first
122. officers training camp at Plattsburgh. Though a bit under
123. age, I received a commission a second lieutenant and got
124. myself assigned to the heavy artillery. Of this I was
125. secretly ashamed, for when the excitement of the day had
126. subsided and I lay in my bunk, I had to confess I did not
127. want to be killed. This bothered me terribly this suspicion
128. that I might be coward after all. I could not reconcile
129. it with the truly exalted mood of patriotism and idealism
130. which possessed me when I hadn't time t o think. It was

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131. very very damaging to my pride, though most of this damage
132. was repaired later on when I got under fire and discovered
133. I was just like other people, scared to death, but willing
134. to face the music.
135. After graduating from an army artillery school,
136. I was sent to a post which was situated near a famous old
137. town on the New England coast ones famous for its deepxsea
138. whaling, trading and Yankee seagoing tradition. Here I made
139. two decisions. The first one, and the best, to marry. Th
140. second decision was most emphatically the worst I ever mad took up with
took up with
141. I made the acquaintance of John Barleycorn and decided that
142. I liked it him.
143. My wife to be
144. Here I set out upon two paths and little did I realize
145. how much they were diverge. In short I got married
146. and at about the same time, took my first drink and decided
147. that I liked it. But for undying loyalty of my wife
148. and her faith through the years, I should not be alive today.
149. She was a city bred person and represented a background and
150. way of life for which I had secretly longed. Her family
151. spent long summers in our little town. All of them were
152. highly regarded by the natives. This was most complimentary
153. for among the countrymen there existed strong and often un-
154. reasonable prejudices against city folks. For the most
155. part, I felt differently. Most city people I knew had money,
156. assurance, and what then seemed to me great sophistication.

Page 7.
157. and Most of them had family trees. There were servants,
158. fine houses, gay dinners, and all of the other things with
159. which I was wont to associate power and distinction. All
160. of them, quite unconsciously I am sure, could make me feel
161. very inadequate and ill at ease. I began to feel woefully
162. lacking in the matter of poise and polish and worldly know-
163. ledge. Though very proud of the traditions of my own people,
164. I sometimes indulged in the envious wish that I had been
165. born under other circumstances and with some of these advan-
166. tages. Since then immemorial I suppose the country boyshav
167. thought and felt as I did have thought and felt as I did.
168. These feelings of inferiority are I suspect responsible for
169. the enormous determination many of them have felt to go out
170. to the cities in quest of what seemed to them like true
171. success. Though seldom revealed, these were the sentiments
172. that drove me on from this point.
173. The war fever ran high in the city near my
174. post and I soon discovered that young officers were in
175. great demand at the dinner tables of the first citizens of
176. the place. Social differences were layed aside and every-
177. thing was done to make us feel comfortable, happy, and heroic.
178. A great many things conspired to make me feel that I was im-
179. portant. I discovered that I had a somewhat unusual power
180. over men on the drill field and in the barracks. I was about
181. to fight to save the world for democracy. People whose
182. station In life I had envied were receiving me as an equal.

Page 8.
183. My marriage with a girl who represented all of the best
184. things the city had to offer, was close at hand, and last,
185. but not least, I had discovered John Barleycorn, Love, ad-
186. venture, war, applause of the crowd, moments sublime and
187. hilarious with intervals hilarious - I was a part of life
188. at last, and very happy.
189. The warnings of my people, the contempt
190. which I had felt for those who drank, were put aside with
191. surprising alacrity as I discovered what the Bronx cocktail
192. could really do for a fellow. My imagination soared - my
193. tongue loosened at last - wonderful vistas opened on all
194. sides, but best of all my self consciousness - my gaucheries
195. and my ineptitudes disappeared into thin air. I seemed to
196. the life of the party. To the dismay of my bride I used to
197. get pretty drunk when I tried to compete with more ex-
198. perienced drinkers, but I argued, what did it matter, for
199. so did everyone else at sometime before daylight. Then
200. came the day of parting, of a fond leave taking of my brave
In
201. wife. Amid that strange atmosphere which was the mixture
202. of sadness, high purpose, the feeling of elation that pre-
203. cedes an adventure of the first magnitude. Thus many of us
204. sailed for 'over there' and none of us knew if we should re-
205. turn. For a time, loneliness possessed me, but my new
206. friend Barleycorn always took care of that. I had, I thought
207. discovered a missing link in the chain of things that make
208. life worth while.

Page 9.
209. Then w were in dear old England, soon to cross
210. the channel to the great unknown. I stood in Winchester
211. Cathedral the day before crossing hand in hand with head
212. bowed, for something had touched me then I had never felt
213. before. I had been wondering, in a rare moment of sober
214. reflection, what sense there could be to killing and
215. carnage of which I was soon to become an enthusiastic part.
216. Where could the Deity be - could there be such a thing -
217. Where now was the God of the preachers, the thought of which
218. used to make me so uncomfortable when they talked about him.
219. Here I stood on the abyss edge of the abyss into which
220. thousands were falling that very day. A feeling of despair
221. settled down on me - where was He - why did he not come-
222. and suddenly in that moment of darkness, He was there. I
223. felt an all enveloping, comforting , powerful presence.
224. Tears stood in my eyes, and as I looked about, I saw on the
225. faces of others nearby, that they too had glimpsed the great
226. reality. Much moved, I walked out into the Cathedral yard,
227. where I read the following inscription on a tombstone. 'Here
228. lies a Hampshire Grenadier, Who caught his death drinking
229. small good beer - A good soldier is ne'er forgot, whether
A
230. he dieth by musket or by pot.' The squadron of bombers
231. swept overhead in the bright sunlight, and I cried to myself
232. 'Here's to adventure' and the feeling of being in the great
233. presence disappeared, never to return for many years.
234. --

Page 10.

235. I was twenty two, and a grisled veteran of foreign wars.
236. I felt a tremendous assurance about my future, for was not
237. I the only officer of my regiment save one, who had re-
238. ceived a token of appreciation from the men. This quality
239. of leadership, I fancied, would soon place me at the head
240. of some great commercial organization which I would manage
241. with the same constant skill that the pipe organist does
242. his stops and keys.
243. The triumphant home coming was short lived. The
244. best that could be done was to secure a bookkeeping job in
245. the insurance department of the one of the large railroads.
246. I proved to be a wretched and rebellious bookkeeper and could
247. not stand criticism, nor was I much reconciled to my salary,
248. which was only half the pay I had received in the army. When
249. I started to work the railroads were under control of the
250. government. As soon as they were returned my road was re-
251. turned to its stockholders, I was promptly let out because I
252. could not compete with the other clerks in my office. I was
253. so angry and humiliated at this reverse that I nearly became
254. a socialist to register my defiance of the powers that be,
255. which was going pretty far for a Vermonter.
256. To my mortification, my wife went out and got a
257. position which brought in much more than mine had. Being ab-
258. surdly sensitive, I imagined that her relatives an my newly
259. made city acquaintances were snickering a bit at my predica-
260. ment.

Continue...
Page 11.
261. Unwillingly, I had to admit, that I was not
262. really trained to hold even a mediocre position. Though
263. I said little, the old driving, obstinate determination to
264. show my mettle asserted itself. Somehow, I would show these
265. scoffers. To complete my engineering seemed out of the ques-
of
266. tion, partly because/my distaste for mathematics, My only
267. other assets were my war experiences and a huge amount of
268. ill-assorted reading. The study of law suggested itself, and
269. I commenced a three year night course with enthusiasm. Mean-
270. while, employment showed up and I became a criminal investi-
271. gator for a Surety Company, earning almost as much money as
272. my wife, who spiritedly backed the new undertaking. My day-
273. time employment took me about Wall Street and little by
274. little, I became interested in what I saw going on there.
275. I began to wonder why a few seemed to be rich and famous
276. while the rank and file apparently lost money. I began to
277. study economics and business.
278. Somewhat to the dismay of our friends, we moved
279. to very modest quarters where we could save money. When we
280. had accumulated $1,000.00, most of it was placed in utility
281. stocks, which were then cheap and unpopular. In a small way,
282. I began to be successful in speculation. I was intrigued by
283. the romance of business, industrial and financial leaders be-
284. came my heroes. I read every scrap of financial history I
285. could lay hold of. Here I thought was the road to power.
286. Like the boomerang, episode, I could think of nothing else.

Page 12.
287. How little did I see that I was fashioning a weapon that
288. would one day return and cut me to ribbons.
289. As so many of my heroes commenced as lawyers,
290. I persisted in the course, thinking it would prove useful.
291. I also read many success books and did a lot of things that
292. Horatio Algers's boy heroes were supposed to have done.
293. Characteristically enough I nearly failed my
294. law course as I appeared at one of the final examinations
295. too drunk to think or write. My drinking had not become
296. continuous at this time, though occasional embarrassing in-
297. cidents might have suggested that it was getting real hold.
298. Neither my wife or I had much time for social engagements
299. and in any event we soon became unpopular as I always got
300. tight and boasted disagreeably of my plans and my future.
301. She was becoming very much concerned and fre-
302. quently we had long talks about the matter. I waived her ob-
303. jections aside by pointing out that red blooded men almost
304. always drank and that men of genius frequently conceived
305. their vast projects while pleasantly intoxicated, adding for
306. good measure, that the best and most majestic constructions of
307. philosophical thought were probably so derived.
308. By the time my law studies were finished,
309. I was quite sure I did not want to become a lawyer. I know
310. that somehow I was going to be a part of that then alluring
311. maelstrom which people call Wall Street. How to get into
312. business there was the question. When I proposed going out

Page 13.
313. on the road to investigate properties, my broker friends
314. laughed at me. They did not need such a service and pointed
315. out that I had no experience. I reasoned that I was partly qualified
316. /as an engineer and as a lawyer, and that practically speaking
317. I had acquired very valuable experience as a criminal investi-
318. gator. I felt certain that these assets could not be capita-
319. lized. I was sure that people lost money in securities be-
320. cause they did not know enough about managements, properties,
321. markets, and ideas at work in a given situation.
322. Since no one would hire me and remembering that
323. we now had a few thousand dollars, my wife and I conceived
324. the hare-brained scheme of going out and doing some of this
325. work at our own expense, so we each gave up our employment
326. and set off in a motorcycle and side car, which was loaded
327. down with a tent, blankets, change of clothes and three
328. huge volumes of a well known financial reference service.
329. Some of our friends thought a lunacy commission should be ap-
330. pointed and I sometimes think they were right. Our first ex-
331. ploit was fantastic. Among other things, we owned two shares
332. of General Electric, then selling at about $300.00 a share.
333. Everyone thought it was too high, but I stoutly maintained
334. that it would someday sell for five or ten times that figure.
335. So what could be more logical than to proceed to the main of-
336. fice of the company in New York and investigate it. Naive
337. wasn't it? The plan was to interview ohe officials and get
338. employment there if possible. We drew seventy five dollars

Page 14.
339. from our savings as working capital, vowing never to draw
340. another cent. We arrived at Schenectady, I did talk with
341. some of the people of the to company and became wildly en-
342. thusiastic over GE. My attention was drawn to the radio end
343. of the business and by a strange piece of luck, I learned
344. much of what the company thought about its future. I was
345. then able to put a fairly intelligent projection of the
346. coming radio boom on paper, which I sent to one of my brokers
347. in town. To replenish our working capital, my wife and I
348. worked on a farm nearby for two months, she in the kitchen,
349. and I in the haystack. It was the last honest manual work
350. that I did for many years.
351. The cement industry then caught my fancy and we
352. soon found ourselves looking at a property in the Lehigh
353. district of Eastern Pennsylvania. An unusual speculative
354. situation existed which I went to New York and described to
355. one of my broker friend . This time I drew blood in the
356. shape of an option on hundred shares of stock which
357. promptly commenced to soar. Securing a few hundred dollars
358. advance on this deal, we were freed of the necessity of work,
359. and during the coming year following year, we travelled all
360. over the southeast part of the United States, taking in power
361. projects, an aluminum plant, the Florida boom, the Birmingham
362. steel district, Muscle Shoals, and what not. By this time
363. my friends in New York thought it would pay them to really
364. hire me. At last I had a job in Wall Street. Moreover, I

Page 15.
365. had the use of twenty thousand dollars of their money.
366. For some years the fates tossed horseshoes and golden bricks
367. into my lap and I made much more money than was good for me.
368. It was too easy.
take
369. By this time drinking had gotten to be a very
370. important and exhilerating place in my life. What was a
371. few hundred dollars when you considered it in terms of ex-
372. citement and important talk in the gilded palaces of jazz up-
373. town. My natural conservativeness was swept away and I began
374. to play for heavy stakes. Another legend of infalability
375. commenced to grow up around me and I began to have what is
376. called in Wall Street a following which amounted to many
377. paper millions of dollars. I had arrived, so let the scoffers
378. scoff and be damned, but of course, they didn't, and I made
379. a host of fair weather friends. I began to reach for more
380. power attempting to force myself onto the directorates of
381. corporations in which I controlled blocks of stock.
382. By this time, my drinking had assumed
383. serious proportions. The remonstrances of my associates ter-
384. minated in a bitter row, and I became a lone wolf. Though I
385. managed to avoid serious scrapes and partly out of loyalty,
386. extreme drunkenness, I had not become involved with the fair
it
387. sex, there were many unhappy scenes in my apartment, which
388. was a large one, as I had hired two, and had gotten the real
389. estate people to knock out the walls between them.

Page 16.
390. In the spring of 1929 caught the golf fever. This
391. illness was about the worst yet. I had thought golf was
392. pretty tepid sport, but I noticed some of my pretty
393. important friends thought it was a real game and it
394. presented an excuse for drinking by day as well as by
395. night. Moreover some one had casually said, they didn't think
396. I would ver play a good game. This was a spark in a
397. powder magazine, so my wife and I were instantly off to the
398. country she to watch while I caught up with Walter Hagen.
399. Then too it was a fine chance to flaunt my money around
400. the old home town. And to carom lightly around the exclusive
401. course, whose select city membership had inspired so much
402. awe in me as a boy. So Wall Street was lightly tossed
403. aside while I acquired drank vast quantities of gin and
404. acquired the impeccable coat of tan, one sees on the faces
405. of the well to do. The local banker watched me with an
406. amused skepticism as I whirled good fat checks in and out
407. of his bank.
408. IN October 1929 the whirling movement in my bank
409. account ceased abruptly, and I commenced to whirl myself.
410. Then I felt like Stephen Leacock's horseman, it seemed as rapidly
411. though I were galloping/in all directions at once, for the
412. great panic was on. First to Montreal, then to New York, to
413. rally my following in stocks sorely needing support. A few
414. bold spirits rushed into the breach, but it was of no use. I
415. shed my own wings as the moth who gets to near to the candle
416. flame. After one of those days of shrieking inferno on the
417. stock exchange floor with no information available, I lurched
from
418. drunkenly an the hotel bar to an adjoining brokerage office
419. there at about 8 o'clock in the evening I feverishly searched
420. a huge pile of ticker tape and tore of about an inch of it.
421. It bore the inscription P.F.K. 32.. The stock had opened at
422. 52 that morning. I had controlled over one hundred thousand
423. shares of it, and had a sizable block myself. I knew that I
424. was finished, and so were a lot of my friends.
425. I went back into the bar and after a few
426. drinks, my composure returned. People were beginning to jump
427. from every story of that great Tower of Babel. That was high
428.

Page 17.
429. that I was not so weak. I realized that I had been care-
430. less, especially with other peoples money. I had not paid
431. attention to business and I deserved to be hurt. After a few
432. some more whiskey, my confidence returned again, and with it
433. an almost terrifying determination to somehow capitalize this
434. mess and pay everybody off. I reflected that it was just
435. another worthwhile lesson and that there were a lot of
436. reasons why people lost money in Wall Street that I had not
437. thought of before.
438. My wife took it all like the great person she is.
439. I think she rather welcomed it the situation thinking it
440. might bring me to my senses. Next morning, I woke early,
441. shaking badly from excitement and a terrific hangover. A
442. half bottle of Gin quickly took care of that momentary weak-
as
443. ness and I soon as business places were open I called a
444. friend in Montreal and said -"Well Dick, they have nailed my
445. hide to the barn door" - said he "The hell they have, come
we
446. on up". That is all he said and up W went.
447. I shall never forget the kindness and generosity
448. of this friend. Moreover I must still have carried one
449. horseshoe with me, for by the spring of 1930, we were living
450. in our accustomed style and I had a very comfortable credit
451. balance on the very security in which I had taken the
452. heaviest licking, with plenty of champaigne and sound
453. canadian whiskey, I began to feel like Napolean returning
454. Melba. Infallible again. No St Helena for me. Accustomed
455. as they were to the ravages of fire water in Canada in those
456. days, I soon began to outdistance most of my countrymen both
457. as a serious and a frivolous drinker.
458. Then the depression bore down in earnest. and
459.I, having become worse than useless, had to be reluctantly
459. Though I had become manager of one of the departments of my
460. friend's business, my drinking and nonchalant cocksureness,
461. had rendered me worse than useless, so he reluctantly let me
462. go. We were stony broke again, and even our furniture
463. looked like it was gone, for I could not even pay next months
464. rent on our swank apartment.
465. We wonder to this day how we ever got out of
466. Montreal. But we did, and then I had to eat humble pie. We

Page 18.
467. went to live with my Father and Mother-in-law where we
468. happily found never failing help and sympathy. I got a
469. job at what seemed to be a mere pittance of one hundred
470. dollars a week, but a brawl with a taxi driver , who got
471. very badly hurt, put an end to that . Mercifully, no one
472. knew it, but I was not to have steady employment for five
473. years, nor was I to draw a sober breath if I could help it.
474. Great was my humiliation when my poor wife was
475. obliged to go to work in a department store, coming home ex-
476. hausted night after night to find me drunk again. I became
477. a hanger-on at brokerage shops, but was less and less wel-
478. come as my drinking increased. Even then opportunities to
479. make money pursued me, but I passed up the best of them by
480. getting drunk at exactly the wrong time. Liquor had ceased
481. to be a luxury; It had become a necessity. What few
482. dollars I did make were devoted to keeping my credit good at
483. the bars. To keep out of the hands of the police and for
484. reasons of economy, I began to buy bathtub gin, usually two
485. bottles a day, and sometimes three if I did a real workman-
486. like job. This went on endlessly and I presently began to
487. awake real early in the morning shaking violently. Nothing
488. would seem to stop it but a water tumbler full of raw liquor.
489. If I could steal out of the house and get five or six
490. glasses of beer, I could sometimes eat a little breakfast.
491. Curiously enough I still thought I could control the situation
the
492. and there were periods of sobriety which would revive a flag-
493. ging hope of my wife and her parents. But as time wore on
494. matters got worse. My mother-inlaw died and my wife's health
495. became poor, as did that of my Father-in-law. The house in
496. which we lived was taken over by the mortgage holder. Still
497. I persisted and still I fancied that fortune would again shine
498. upon me. As late 1932 I engaged the confidence of a man
499. who had friends with money. In the spring and summer of that
500. year we raised one hundred thousand dollars to buy securities
501. at what proved to be an all time low point in the New York
502. stock exchange. I was to participate generously in the
503. profits, and sensed that a great opportunity was at hand. So
504. ????

Page 19.
505. prodigious bender a few days before the deal was to be
506. closed.
507. In a measure this did bring me to senses.
508. Many times before I had promised my wife that I had stopped
509. forever. I had written her sweet notes and had inscribed
510. the fly leaves of all the bibles in the house with to that
511. effect. Not that the bible meant so much, but after all
512. it was the book you put your hand on when you were sworn in
513. at court. I now see, however, that I had no sustained de-
514. sire to stop drinking until this last debacle. It was only
515. then that I realized it must stop and forever. I had come
516. to fully appreciate that once the first drink was taken,
517. there was no control Why then take this one? That was it-
518. never was alcohol to cross my lips again in any form. There
519. was, I thought, absolute finality in this decision. I had
520. been very wrong, I was utterly miserable and almost ruined.
521. This decision brought a great sense of relief, for I knew
522. that I really wanted to stop. It would not be easy, I was
523. sure of that, for I had begun to sense the power and cunning
524. of my master - John Barleycorn. The old fierce determination
525. to win out settled down on me - nothing, I still thought,
526. could overcome that aroused as it was. Again I dreamed
527. of my wife smiling happily, as I went out to slay the dragon.
528. I would resume my place in the business world and recapture
529. the lost regard of my fiends and associates. It would take
530. a long time, but I could be patient. The picture of myself
531. as a reformed drunkard rising to fresh heights of achive-
532. ment, quite carried me away with happy enthusiasm. My wife
533. caught the spirit for she saw at last that I really meant
534. business.
535. But in a short while I came in drunk. I could
536. give no real explanation for it. The thought of my new re-
537. solve had scarcely occurred to me as I began. There had
538. been no fight - someone had offered me a drink, and I had
539. taken it, casually, remarking to myself that one or two
540. would not harm a man of my capacity. What had become of my
541. giant determination? How about all of that self searching I
542. had done? Why had not the thought of my past failures and
543. my new ambitions come into my mind? What of the intense de-

Page 20-
544. sire to make my wife happy? Why hadn't these things - these
545. powerful incentives arisen in my mind to stay my hand as I
546. reached out to take that first drink? Was I crazy? I hated
547. to think so, but I had to admit that a condition of mind re-
548. sulting in such an appalling lack of perspective came pretty
549. near to being just that.
550. Then things were better for a time. I was
551. constantly on guard. After two or three weeks of sobriety
552. I began to think I was alright. Presently this quiet con-
553. fidence was replaced by cocksureness. I would walk past my
554. old haunts with a feeling of elation - I now fully realized
555. the danger that lurked there. The tide had turned at last -
556. and now I was really through. One afternoon on my way home
557. I walked into a bar room to make a telephone call, suddenly
558. I turned to the bartender and said "Four Irish whiskies -
559. water on the side" - As he poured them out with a surprised
560. look, I can only remember thinking to myself - "I shouldn't
561. be doing this, but here's how to the last time". As I
562. gulped down the fourth one, I beat on the bar with my fist
563. and said, "for God's sake, why have I done this again?" Where
564. had been my realization of only this morning as I had
565. passed this very place, that I was never going to drink again
566. I could give no answer, mortification and the feeling of
567. utter defeat swept over me. The thought that perhaps I
568. could never stop crushed me. Then as the cheering warmth
569. of these first drinks spread over me, I said - "Next time
570. I shall manage better, but while I am about it, I may as
571. well get good and drunk". And I did exactly that.
572. I shall never forget the remorse, the horror
573. the utter hopelessness of the next morning. The courage to
574. rise and do battle was simply not there . Before daylight
575. I had stolen out of the house, my brain raced uncontrollably.
576. There was a terrible feeling of impending calamity.
577. feared even to cross a street, less I collapse and be run
578. over by an early morning truck. Was there no bar open? Ah,
579. yes, there was the all night place which sold beer - though
580. it was before the legal opening hour, I persuaded the man be-
581. hind the food counter that I must have a drink or perhaps die

Page 21.
582. on the spot. Cold as the morning was, I must have drunk
583. a dozen bottles of ale in rapid succession. My writhing
584. nerves were stilled at last and I walked to the next corner
585. and bought a paper. It told me that the stock market had
586. gone to hell again - "What difference did it make anyway,
587. the market would get better, it always did, but I'm in hell
588. to stay - no more rising markets for me. Down for the count-
589. what a blow to one so proud. I might kill myself, but no -
590. not now," These were some of my thoughts - then I felt
591. dazed - I groped in a mental fog - mere liquor would fix
592. that - then two more bottles of cheap gin. Oblivion.
593. The human mind and body is a marvelous
594. mechanism, for mine withstood this sort of thing for yet
595. another two years. There was little money, but I could al-
596. ways drink. Sometimes I stole from my wife's slender purse
597. when the early morning terror of madness was upon me. There
598. were terrible scenes and though not often violent, I would
599. sometimes do such things as to throw a sewing machine, or
600. kick the panels out of every door in the house. There were
601. moments when I swayed weakly before an open window or the
602. medicine chest in which there was poison - and cursed my-
603. self for a weakling. There were flights from the city to
604. the country when my wife could bear with me no longer at
605. home Sometimes there would be several weeks and hope would
606. return, especially for her, as I had not let her know how
607. defeated I really was, but there was always the return to
the
608. conditions still worse. Then came a night I when the physi-
609. cal and mental torture was so hellish that I feared I would
610. take a flying leap through my bedroom window sash and all
611. and somehow managed to drag my mattress down to the kitchen
612. floor which was at the ground level. I had stopped drinking
613. a few hours before and hung grimly to my determination that
614. I could have no more that night if it killed me. That very
615. nearly happened, but I was finally rescued by a doctor who
616. prescribed chloral hydrate, a powerful sedative. This reliev-
617. ed me so much that next day found me drinking apparently
618. without the usual penalty, if I took some sedative occasion-
619. ally. In the early spring of 1934 it became evident to

Page 22.
620. everyone concerned that something had to be done and
621. that very quickly. I was thirty pounds underweight, as I
622. could eat nothing when drinking, which was most of the
623. time. People had begun to fear for my sanity and I fre-
624. quently had the feeling myself that I was becoming deranged.
625. With the help of my brother-in-law, who is a
626. physician I was placed in a well known institution for the
627. bodily and mental rehabilitation of alcoholics. It was
628. thought that if I were thoroughly cleared of alcohol and
629. the brain irritation which accompanies it were reduced, I
630. might have a chance. I went to the place desperatly hoping
631. and expecting to be cured. The so-called bella donna
632. treatment given in that place helped a great deal. My mind
633. cleared and my appetite returned. Alternate periods of
634. hydro-therapy, mild exercise and relaxation did wonders for
635. me. Best of all I found a great friend in the doctor who
636. was head of the staff. He went far beyond his routine duty
637. and I shall always be grateful for those long talks in which
638. explained that when I drank I became physically ill and that
639. this bodily condition was usually accompanied by a mental
640. state such that the defense one should have against alcohol
641. became greatly weakened, though in no way mitigating my
642. early foolishness and selfishness about drink, I was greatly
643. relieved to discover that I had really been ill perhaps for
644. several years. Moreover I felt that the understanding and
645. fine physical start I was getting would assure my recovery,
646. Though some of the inmates of the place who had been there
647. many times seemed to smile at that idea. I noticed however
648. that most of them had no intention of quitting; they merely
649. came there to get reconditioned so that they could start in
650. again. I, on the contrary, desperately wanted to stop and
651. strange to say I still felt that I was a person of much more
652. determination and substance than they, so I left there in
653. high hope and for three or four months the goose hung high.
654. In a small way I began to make some progress in business.
655. Then came the terrible day when I drank again
656. and could not explain why I started. The curve of my de-
657. clining moral and bodily health fell of like a ski jump.
658. After a hectic period of drinking, I found myself again in

[archivist's note: the typewritten manuscript text continues correctly with
page 23, but line numbers 659 - 679 remain unknown ]

Page 23.
680. Everyone became resigned to the certainty that I
681. would have to be confined somewhere ore else stumble
682. along to a miserable end, but there was soon to be
683. proof that indeed it is often darkest before dawn,
684. for this proved to be my last drinking bout, and I am
685. supremely confident that my present happy state is to be
686. for all time.
687. Late one afternoon near the end of that
688. month of November I sat alone in the kitchen of my home.
689. As usual, I was half drunk and enough so that the keen
690. edge of my remorse was blunted. With a certain satis-
691. faction I was thinking that there was enough gin se-
692. creted about the house to keep me fairly comfortable
693. that night and the next day. My wife was at work and I
694. resolved not to be in too bad shape when she got home.
695. My mind reverted to the hidden bottles and at I carefully
696. considered where each one was hidden. These things must
697. be firmly in my mind to escape the early morning tragedy
698. of not being able to find at least a water tumbler full
699. of liquor. Just as I was trying to decide whether to risk
700. concealing one of the full ones within easy reach of my
701. side of the bed, the phone rang.
702. At the other end of the line Over the
703. wire came the voice of an old school friend and drinking
704. companion of boom times. By the time we had exchanged
705. greetings, I sensed that he was sober. This seemed
706. strange, for it was years since anyone could remember his
707. coming to New York in that condition. I had come to think
708. of him as another hopeless devotee of Bacchus. Current
709. rumor had it that he had been committed to a state institu-
710. tion for alcoholic insanity. I wondered if perhaps he had
711. not just escaped. Of course he would come over right away
712. and take dinner with us. A fine idea that, for I then
713. would have an excuse to drink openly with him. Yes, we
714. would try to recapture the spirit of other days and per-
715. haps my wife could be persuaded to join in, which in self
716. defense she sometimes would. I did not even think of the
717. harm I might do him. There was to be a pleasant, and I

Page 24.
718. hoped an exciting interlude in what had become a
round
719. dreary waste of loneliness. Another drink stirred my
720. fancy; this would be an oasis in the dreary waste. That
721. was it - an oasis. Drinkers are like that.
722. The door opened and there he stood, very
723. erect and glowing. His deep voice boomed out cheerily -
724. the cast of his features - his eyes - the freshness of
725. his complexion - this was my friend of schooldays. There
726. was a subtle something or other instantly apparent even to
727. my befuddled perception. Yes - there was certainly some-
728. thing more - he was inexplicably different - what had
729. happened to him?
730. We sat at the table and I pushed a
731. lusty glass of gin flavored with pineapple juice in his
732. direction. I thought if my wife came in, she would be re-
733. lieved to find that we were not taking it straight -
734. "Not now", he said. I was a little crest
735. fallen at this, though I was glad to know that someone
736. could refuse a drink at that moment - I knew I couldn't.
737. "On the wagon?" - I asked. He shook his head and looked
738. at me with an impish grin .
739. "Aren't you going to have anything?"-
740. I ventured presently.
741. "Just as much obliged, but not tonight"
742. I was disappointed, but curious. What had got into the
743. fellow - he wasn't himself.
744. "No, he's not himself - he's somebody
is
745. else - not just that either - he was his old self, plus
746. something more, and maybe minus something". I couldn't put
747. my finger on it - his whole bearing almost shouted that
748. something of great import had taken place.
749. "Come now, what's this all about", I
750. asked. Smilingly, yet seriously, he looked straight at me
751. and said "I've got religion".
752. So that was it. Last summer an alco
753. alcoholic crackpot - this fall, washed in the blood of the
754. Lamb. heavens, that might be even worse. I was thunder-
755. struck, and he, of all people. What on earth could one

Page 25.
756. say to the poor fellow.
757. So I finally blurted out "That's
758. fine", and sat back waiting for a sizzling blast on sal-
759. vation and the relation of the Cross, the Holy Ghost, and
760. the Devil thereto. Yes, he did have that starry edy
761. eyed look, the old boy was on fire all right. Well, bless
762. his heart, let him rant . It was nice that he was sober
763. after all. I could stand it anyway, for there was plenty
764. of gin and I took a little comfort that tomorrow's ration
765. wouldn't have to be used up right then.
766. Old memories of Sunday School - the profit
767. temperance pledge, which I never signed - the sound of the
768. preacher's voice which could be heard on still Sunday
769. mornings way over on the hillside beyond the railroad
770. tracks,- My grandfather's quite scorn of things some
771. church people did to him - his fair minded attitude that
772. I should make up my mind about these things myself - his
spheres
773. convictions that the fears really had their mooxx music -
774. but his denial of the right of preachers to tell him how
775. he should listen - his perfect lack of fear when he men-
776. tioned these things just before his death - these memories
777. surged up out of my childhood as I listened to my friend.
778. My own gorge rose for a moment to an all time high as my
779. anti-preacher - anti-church folk sentiment welled up in-
780. side me. These feelings soon gave way to respectful at-
781. tention as my former drinking companion rattled on.
782. Without knowing it, I stood at the great turning point of
783. my life - I was on the threshold of a fourth dimension
784. of existence that I had doubtfully heard some people des
785. describe and others pretend to have.
786. He went on to lay before me a simple
787. proposal. It was so simple and so little
788. complicated with the theology and dogma
789. I had associated with religion that by
790. degrees I became astonished and delighted.
791. I was astonished because a thing so simple
792. could accomplish the profound result I now
793. beheld in the person of my friend. To say that
794. I was delighted is putting it mildly , for I
795. relized that I could go for his program also.
796. Like all but a few u human beings I had truele
797. believed in the existence of a power greater
798. than myself true athiests are really very scarce.
799. It always seemed to me more difficult and illogical
800. to be an athiest than to believe there is a
801. certain amount of law and order and purpose
802. underlying the universe. The faith of an athiest
803. in his convictions is far more blind then that
804. of the religionist for it leads inevitably to
805. the absurd conclusion that the vast and ever
806. changing cosmos originally grew out of a cipher,
807. and now has arrived at its present state thru
808. a series of haphazard accidents, one of which
809. is man himself. My liking for things scientific
810. had encouraged to look into such matters as
811. a theory of evolution the nature of matter itself
812. as seen thru the eyes of the great chemists
813. physicists and astronomers and I had pondered
814. much on the question of the meaning of life itself.
815. The chemist had shown me that material matter
816. is not all what it appears to be. His studies
817. point to the conclusion that the elements and there
818. meriad combinations are but in the last last
819. analysis nothing but different arrangements
820. of that universal something which they are pleased
821. to call the electron. The physicist and the
822. astronomer had shown me that our universe .
823. moves and evolves according to many precise
824. and well understood laws. They tell me to the
825. last second when the sun will be next eclipsed
826. at the place I am now standing, or the very day
827. several decades from now When Hallyes comet
828. will make its turn about the sun. Much to my
829. x interest I learned from these men that great
830. cosmic accidents occur bringing about conditions
831. which are not exceptions to the law so much
832. as they result in new and unexpected developments
833. which arise logically enough once the so called
834. accident has occurred. It is highly probable for
835. example-that our earth is the only planet in the
836. solar system upon which man could evolve - and it
837. is claimed by some astronomers that the chance
838. that similar planets exist elsewhere in the universe
839. is rather small. There would have to be a vast
840. number of coincidences to bring about the exact
841. conditions of light, warmth, food supply, etc.
842. to support life as we know it here. But I used to
843. ask myself why regard the earth as an accident
844. in a system which evidences in so many respects the
845. greatest law and order' If If all of this law
846. existed then could there be so much law and no
847. intelligence? And if there was an intelligence
848. great enough to materialize and keep a universe in
849. order it must necessarily have the power to create
850. accidents and make exceptions.
851. The evolutionist brought great logic to bear
852. on the proposition that life on this planet began
853. with the lowly omebia , which was a simple cell
854. residing in the oceans of Eons past. Thru countless
855. & strange combinations of logic and accident man
856. and all other kinds of life evolved but man possessed
857. a consciousness of self, a power to reason and to
858. choose , and a small still voice which told him the
859. difference between right and wrong and man became
860. increasingly able to fashion with his hands and
861. with his tools the creations of his own brain .
862. He could give direction and purpose to natural laws
apparently
863. and so he, created new things for himself and of
864. [line number skipped in the typewritten manuscript]
865. and do he apparently created new things for himself an
866. [line number skipped in the typewritten manuscript]
867. out of a tissue composed of his past experience
868. and his new ideas. Therefore man tho' resembling
869. other forms of life in many ways seems to me
870. very different. It was obvious that in a limited
871. fashion he could play at being a God himself .
872. Such was the picture I had of myself and the
873. world in which I lived, that there was a mighty
874. rhythm, intelligence and purpose behind it all
875. despite inconsistencies. I had rather strongly
876. believed.
877. But this was as far as I had ever got toward
878. the realization of God and my personal relationship
879. to Him. My thoughts of God were academic and
880. speculative when I had them, which for some years
881. past had not been often. That God was an intelligence
882. power and love upon which I could absolutely rely
883. as an individual had not seriously occurred to me.
884. Of course I knew in a general way what theologians
885. claimed but I could not see that religious persons
886. as a class demonstrated any more power, love and
887. intelligence than those who claimed no special
888. dispensation from God tho' I grant de that
889. christianity ought to be a wonderful influence
890. I was annoyed, irked and confused by the attitudes
891. they took, the beliefs they held and the things
892. they had done in the name of Christ,. People like
893. myself had been burned and whole population put
894. to fire and sword on the pretext they did not
895. believe as christians did. History taught that
896. christians were not the only offenders in this
897. respect. It seemed to me that on the whole
898. it made little difference whether you were
899. Mohamadem, Catholic, Jew, Protesant or Hotentot.

Continued...

900. You were supposed to look askance at the other
901. fellows approach to God. Nobody could be saved
902. unless they fell in with your ideas. I had a
903. great admiration for Christ as a man, He practiced
904. what he preached and set a marvelous example.
905. It was not hard to agree in Principle with
906. His moral teachings bit like most people, I preferred
907. to live up to some moral standard but not to others.
908. At any rate I thought I understood as well as any
909. one what good morals were and with the exceptions
910. of my drinking I felt superior to most christians
911. I knew. I might be week in some respects but at
912. least I was not hypocritical, So my interest in
913. christianity other than its teaching of moral
914. principles and the good I hoped it did on
915. balance was slight.
916. Sometimes I wished that I had been religiously
917. trained from early childhood that I might have the
918. comfortable assurance about so many things I found
919. it impossible to have any definite convictions
920. upon. The question of the hereafter, the many
921. theological abstractions and seeming contradictions
922. - these things were puzzling and finally annoying
923. for religious people told me I must believe
924. a great many seemingly impossible things to be one
925. [line number skipped]
926. of them. This insistence on their part plus a
927. powerful desire to possess the things of this life
928. while there was yet time had crowded the idea of
929. the personal God more and more out of my mind as the
930. years went by. Neither were my convictions strengthen
931. by my own misfortunes. The great war and its
932. aftermath seemed to more certainly demonstrate the
933. omnipotence of the devil than the loving care of
934. an all powerful God
935. Nevertheless here I was sitting opposite a
936. man who talked about a personal God who told me
937. how hw had found Him, who described to me how I
938. might do the same thing and who convinced me
939. utterly that something had come into his life
940. which had accomplished a miracle. The man was
941. transformed; there was no denying he had been re-
942. born. He was radiant of something which soothed
943. my troubled spirit as tho the fresh clean wind of
944. mountain top blowing thru and thru me I saw and
945. felt and in a great surge of joy I realized
946. that the great presence which had made itself felt
947. to me that war time day in Winchester Cathedral
948. had again returned.
949. As he continued I commenced to see myself as in
950. as in an unearthly mirror. I saw how ridiculous and
951. futile the whole basis of my life had been. Standing in
952. the middle of the stage of my lifes setting I had been
953. feverishly trying to arrange ideas and things and people
954. and even God, to my own liking, to my own ends and to
955. promote what I had thought to be true happiness. It was
956. truly a sudden and breath taking illumination. Then the
957. idea came - " The tragic thing about you is, that you
958. have been playing God." That was it. Playing God. Then
959. the humor of the situation burst upon me, here was I a
960. tiny grain of sand of the infinite shores of Gods great
961. universe and the little grain of sand, had been trying
962. to play God. He really thought he could arrange all of
963. the other little grains about him just to suit himself.
964. And when his little hour was run out, people would
965. weep and say in awed tones-' How wonderful'.
966. So then came the question - If I were no
967. longer to be God than was I to find and perfect
968. the new relationship with my creator - with the Father
969. of Lights who presides over all ? My friend laid down
970. to me the terms and conditions which were simple but
971. not easy, drastic yet broad and acceptable to honest
972. men everywhere, of whatever faith or lack thereof. He did not
973. tell me that these were the only terms - he merely said that
974. they were terms that had worked in his case. They were spiritual
975. principles and rules of practice he thought common to all of the
976. worthwhile religions and philosophies of mankind. He regarded them
977. as stepping stones to a better understanding of our relation to the
978. spirit of the universe and as a practical set of directions setting
979. forth how the spirit could work in and through us that we might
980. become spearheads and more effective agents for the promotion
981. of Gods Will for our lives and for our fellows. The great thing
982. about it all was its simplicity and scope, no really religious
983. persons belief would be interfered with no matter what his training ,
984. For the man on the street who just wondered about such things, it ws
985. Was a providential approach, for with a small beginning of faith
986. and a very large dose of action along spiritual lines he could be
987. sure to demonstrate the Power and Love of God as a practical
988. workable twenty four hour a day design for living.
989. This is what my friend suggested I do. One: Turn my face
990. to God as I understand Him and say to Him with earnestness - complete
991. honesty and abandon- that I henceforth place my life at His
992. disposal and direction forever. TWO: that I do this in the presence
993. of another person, who should be one in whom I have confidence and if
994. I be a member of a religious organization, then with an appropriate
995. member of that body. TWO: Having taken this first step, I should
996. next prepare myself for Gods Company by taking a thorough and ruth-
997. less inventory of my moral defects and derelictions. This I should
998. do without any reference to other people and their real or fancied
999. part in my shortcomings should be rigorously excluded-" Where have I
1000. failed-is the prime question. I was to go over my life from the
1001. beginning and ascertain in the light of my own present understanding
1002. where I had failed as a completely moral person. Above all things in
1003. making this appraisal I must be entirely honest with myself. As an
1004. aid to thoroughness and as something to look at when I got through
1005. I might use pencil and paper. First take the question of honesty.
1006. Where, how and with whom had I ever been dishonest? With respect to
1007. anything. What attitudes and actions did I still have which were not
1008. completely honest with God with myself or with the other fellow. I ws
1009. was warned that no one can say that he is a completely honest
1010. person. That would be superhuman and people aren't that way.
1011. Nor should I be misled by the thought of how honest I am in
1012. some particulars. I was too ruthlessly tear out of the past all
1013. of my dishonesty and list them in writing. Next I was to explore
1014. another area somewhat related to the first and commonly a very
1015. defective one in most people. I was to examine my sex conduct
1016. since infancy and rigorously compare it with what I thought that
1017. conduct should have been. My friend explained to me that peoples
1018. ideas throughout the world on what constitutes perfect sex conduct
1019. vary greatly Consequently, I was not to measure my defects in this
1020. particular by adopting any standard of easy virtue as a measuring
1021. stick, I was merely to ask God to show me the difference between
1022. right and wrong in this regard and ask for help and strength and
1023. honesty in cataloguing my defects according to the true dictates
1024. of my own conscience. Then I might take up the related questions
1025. of greed and selfishness and thoughtlessness. How far and in what
1026. connection had I strayed and was I straying in these particulars?
1027. I was assured I could make a good long list if I got honest enough
1028. and vigorous enough. Then there was the question of real love for
1029. all of my fellows including my family, my friends and my enemies
1030. Had I been completely loving toward all of these at all times
1031. and places. If not, down in the book it must go and of course
1032. everyone could put plenty down along that line.

(Resntments, self-pity, fear, pride.)

1033. my friend pointed out that resentment, self-pity, fear, in-
1034. feriority, pride and egotism, were thingsx attitudes which
1035. distorted ones perspective suc and usefulness to entertain such
1036. sentiments and attitudes was to shut oneself off from God and
1037. people about us. Therefore it would be necessary for me to
1038. examine myself critically in this respect and write down my
1039. conclusions.
1040. Step number three required that I carefully go over my
1041. personal inventory and definitely arrive at the conclusion that
1042. I was now willing to rid myself of all these defects moreover
1043. I was to understand that this would not be accomplished by
1044. [line number skipped]
1045. myself alone, therefore I was to humbly ask God that he take
1046. these handicaps away. To make sure that I had become really
1047. honest in this desire, I should sit down with whatever person
1048. I chose and reveal to him without any reservations whatever
1049. the result of my self appraisal. From this point out I was
1050. to stop living alone in every particular. Thus was I to ridx keep
1051. myself free in the future of those things which shut out
1052. God's power, It was explained that I had been standing in my
1053. own light, my spiritual interior had been like a room darkened
1054. by very dirty windows and this was an undertaking to wipe them
1055. off and keep them kleen. Thus was my housekeeping to be ac-
1056. complished, it would be difficult to be really honest with my-
1057. self and God and perhaps to be completely honest with another
1058. person by telling an other the truth, I could however be ab-
1059. solutely sure that my self searching had been honest and effective.
1060. Moreover I would be taking my first spiritual step towards my
1061. fellows for something I might say could be helpful in leading
1062. the person to whom I talked a better understanding of himself.
1063. In this fashion I would commence to break down the barriers
1064. which my many forms of self will had erected. Warning was
1065. given me that I should select a person who would be in ho way
1066. injured or offended by what I had to say, for I could not expect
1067. to commence my spiritual growth at the w expense of another.
1068. My friend told me that this step was complete, I would surely
1069. feel a tremendous sense of relieve accompanying by the absolute
1070. conviction that I was on the right t road at last.
1071.l0 Step number four demanded that I frankly admit that my
1072.deviations from right thought and action had injured other people
1073.therefore I must set about undoing the damage to the best of my
1074.ability. It would be advisable to make a list of all the
1075.persons I had hurt or with whom I had bad relations. People I
1076.disliked and those who had injured me should have preferred

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
| 6501|6491|2010-05-02 11:20:45|lee|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than |
The District Committee can do whatever the majority agrees upon. I would vote against such a motion. We have more Traditions than the formal Twelve. AA's other Traditions are dictated by what's done over time and in concert with what other similar AA entities do. The long-established method of seating treasurers and secretaries is by election. I have never heard of it being done any other way. If the District officers are chosen by one person on the basis of friendship, personal preference or subjective evaluation, we have completely bypassed the "loving God" as expressed in the group conscience. It sounds like a power grab and demagogic to me. I do think that the DCM should have the authority to appoint Standing Committee Chairpersons as he/she may have a good sense on these appointments and later would have the choice, if the Chairs failed in their duties, to replace them. A call to GSO might provide a little guidance here.
lee

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Robbins wrote:
>
> You might look at the AA Service Manual, Concept I.
>
>
> On 4/21/2010 1:58 PM, luv2shop wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> > I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not
> > looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and
> > could point me in the correct direction......
> >
> > Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the
> > current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the
> > district. In the past these positions have been filled through
> > elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to
> > appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with
> > and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2
> > states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they
> > do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to
> > "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way
> > but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?
> >
> > Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I
> > could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything
> > in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would
> > greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right
> > research direction.
> >
> > Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a
> > treasure trove of information!!
> >
> > Yours in the fellowship
> > Donna W.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
| 6502|6502|2010-05-02 11:26:34|FAMBD|Women & Spirit|
http://www.womenandspirit.org/index.html

The Women & Spirit Exhibition is touring the US and will be in Cleveland Ohio from 09-MAY. Part of the exhibition is devoted to Ignatia and her work. The material has been provided by the Sisters of Charity of St Augustine.
The link above is to the website which gives dates etc of where the exhibition will be.

Regards

Fiona
| 6503|6499|2010-05-03 10:46:28|Tim DeRan|Re: minority voice report|
"I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice
report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings....





While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall
any such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3
vote. I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was
hoping someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting
protocol."





Look in the Service Manual.



tmd


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6504|6499|2010-05-03 10:46:35|Remi K.|Re: minority voice report|
Concept V, found in the "secret" AA Service Manual, allows for the
"Right of Appeal", assuring that minority opinion will be heard.

It's testimonial of our co-founder Bill W.'s incredible foresight for
drafting the 12 Concepts... relinquishing the power and authority to the
fellowship.

In service,

Remi


doclandis@aol.com wrote:
>
> I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice
> report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings.
>
> The question arose from a vote that was recently taken in our District
> Meeting regarding an AA function over the Founders Day weekend that
> includes
> a history skit, and then a spaghetti dinner. Apparently a few members
> felt
> it was not OK for the District to ask for donations to cover the cost of
> the
> meal, and when the project was approved by a vote of 5-2, those who did
> not
> support the project have demanded a "minority voice report" at the
> following
> months meeting.
>
> While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall
> any
> such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3
> vote.
> I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was
> hoping
> someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting
> protocol.
>
> thanks,
>
> Mark in the North Georgia Mountains
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
| 6505|6491|2010-05-03 10:46:42|Tim DeRan|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than |
"Is there anything in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right research direction."





You're best source of any information on this is the Service Manual. After that you might look in AA Comes Of Age. But, there is little that I know of that speaks to this question.



However, I would point out something that I know of from personal experience both in the organization and structure of AA and outside of it. One of the reasons positions such as you speak of is to have a diversity of opinions, experience and training. Having someone appoint people they are comfortable with is dangerous in that while it might not happen, it could lead to a committee of yes men who follow along behind the appointing authority. And, being selected to sit in a position by someone has the possiblity of making the appointed in debt to the appointer.



In the end that tradition about ultimate authority in the group conscience is the ultimate authority and if an area, district or whatever decided to follow down a path they also have to live with the consequences of that choice. Much thought and deliberation needs to go into making decisions such as these.





tmd


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6506|6506|2010-05-03 10:48:14|tuchypalmieri|Bill W acknowlesdges Sam Shoemaker as the 3rd co-founder of AA in 19|
IN MEMORY OF Dr. SAM
By B. W.
On Thursday October 31st 1963 Dr. Sam
Shoemaker, The great Episcopal clergyman
and first friend of A. A. Passed from our sight
and hearing. He was one of those few without whose
ministration A. A. could never have been born in the
first place nor prospered since
From his teaching Dr Bob and I absorbed most of the
principles that were later embodied in the Twelve Steps of
A. A. Our ideas of self –examination, acknowledgement
of character defect s, restitution for harms done, and
working with others came straight from Sam. Therefore
he gave to us the concrete knowledge of what we could
do about our illness; he passed to us spiritual keys by
which so many of us have since been liberated
We who in A. A. early time were privileged to fall under
the spell of his inspiration can never be the same again.
We shall bless Sam's memory forever
Reprinted by permission from the book "And thy
neighbor" by Sam Shoemaker
| 6507|6499|2010-05-03 10:48:51|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: minority voice report|
Perhaps it derives from Concept Five: "Throughout our structure, a traditional 'Right of Appeal' ought to prevail, so that minority opinion will be heard and personal grievances receive careful consideration." Bill elaborates on this in his essay on the concept.



To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
From: doclandis@aol.com
Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 15:14:06 -0400
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] minority voice report





I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice
report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings.

The question arose from a vote that was recently taken in our District
Meeting regarding an AA function over the Founders Day weekend that
includes
a history skit, and then a spaghetti dinner. Apparently a few members
felt
it was not OK for the District to ask for donations to cover the cost of
the
meal, and when the project was approved by a vote of 5-2, those who did
not
support the project have demanded a "minority voice report" at the
following
months meeting.

While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall
any
such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3
vote.
I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was
hoping
someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting
protocol.

thanks,

Mark in the North Georgia Mountains

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





_________________________________________________________________
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6508|6508|2010-05-03 10:51:51|tuchypalmieri|AA Historical books Reprinted and now available a low prices|
Reprinted by Healing-habits.com available @ amazon
Classic republished Gems

"When Man Listens" Cecil Rose Was very Rare
A book of how to Listen to God.
In His preface Cecil Rose writes ?The chapters of this book are an attempt to set down briefly the simple elements of Christian living. I believe that there is nothing in them which cannot be found in the New Testament?. What Cecil Rose wrote was a model for living that went beyond the Christian faith. It became one of the sources of the 12 Step recovery program. Which has brought many people to God. It embodies universal principles that serves all of mankind. It is an excellent guide for ; People of the Christian faith People who are struggling with their 12 step program. People seeking to deepen their Spiritual/ religious connection People who are seeking to live a life of honor and integrity in a world in filled with the opposite It is my honor and pleasure to have Cecil Roses work reborn through this reprinting so that the masses can have access to his words and the principles he speaks of.


"Twice Born men" Harold Begbie.
A Famous English Author of the early 1900's writes stories of downtrodden people who were saved by the works of the Salvation Army. A movement that started in England and has spread to 116 countries today


"The Genius of Fellowship/ conversion of the Church" Sam Shoemaker
The Man who started it all.
Sam Shoemaker a pioneer in both the Oxford group movement and AA. presents in his book "The conversion Of The Church" How the Church needs to operate like a fellowship and that in reality the Fellowship is the Church. Sam mentions in his Forward that the original church was often called the fellowship. AA is often referred to as the Fellowship. Sam devotes an entire Chapter to the genius of fellowship. There he emphasizes the Importance of fellowship in The Church. "When the Church is alive the desire for fellowship is alive. Sam gives his definition of real fellowship. "the core and genius of real fellowship as I see it, is the power to live and work with people upon the basis of absolute love and honesty"


"Children of the second Birth" Sam Shoemaker
The movement that helped Bill W to recover
An early Sam Shoemaker book originally published in the 1920s, Children of the Second Birth is filled with stories of men and women who had their lives changed by turning to God; stories of people who, under the guidance of Sam, utilized the Oxford Group principles and found miracles. These men and women came from the depths of desperation and despair to places of happiness and joy. The touching journeys that they went through gave others the hope that they too could have a new life filled with peace and serenity. People today can achieve the same results as the people mentioned in this book. All that is required is to follow what they did. May these true-life accounts help you or your loved ones find the Happiness of God.


"Life Changers 13th edition" Harold Begbie
Frank Buchman The man who started the oxford movement
Life Changers is comprised of century-old stories of men who had their lives changed so profoundly and so dramatically that the original book was reprinted 12 times. Now 100 years later, with its 13th printing, this precious classic is set to change the lives of many more men and women. The words in this book are as true today as they were then. Life Changers is also about a man, Frank Buchman, who was first and foremost a teacher. Buchman could change the lives of students and scholars in the course of a single conversation; changing those lives so profoundly and persuasively that the world was in disbelief. Buchman started a movement that reached the shores of America and lives today in the form of many 12-step programs. While the original movement was founded on Christianity, its principles and ideas moved beyond religion and Christianity into a more generic spiritual movement.

The Common Sense of Drinking
Written by Richard Peabody in the early 1930s, "The Common Sense of Drinking" describes alcoholism and the behavior of many alcoholics. Divided into four sections, the book carefully details the condition of alcoholism, along with the diagnosis of the disease, first steps towards successful treatment, and "the cure made effective." Republished in 2009 by Tuchy Palmieri as "To Drink or Not To Drink: The Common Sense of Drinking," this book, although somewhat dated in parts, still serves as a wonderful resource for anyone interested in studying the early research on the condition of alcoholism.
Twice Born Ministers

Twice-Born Ministers is a book of 12 personal stories of 12 ministers who were reborn and re-energized to do the real work of ministry by helping people to become faithful followers in every sense of the word, specifically being reborn themselves to Christ and to his calling for them to do his work.
Inspired Children
Olive M. Jones written by the former President of The National Education Association. It is a book about how the Oxford Group principles work in lives of children. True stories about real children and how their lives have been transformed by employing the principles and making God real to children. Sam Shoemaker in his introduction makes the point that he knew most of the children and that they were the happiest children he has ever known
| 6509|6491|2010-05-04 21:52:53|Dolores|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than |
Hi Lee, When I read what you have written. I thought of the General Service Conference. That the Groups are the most important members and they vote to send a GSR to the Area meeing. Here on the Continent, Intergroup is the next group. There we express our voice in AA, by voting for the Chair, Sec. and Treasurer. And this goes on to our Region and I believe in the States, Districts, where again the members vote for the Chair, Sec and Treas. The way you said it was suggested seems like a business and AA is not a Business, we are a Fellowship. Our inverted Triangle helps us to remember that in service we are trusted servants. All about this can be read in the "Language of the Heart", a highly recommended book. In this structure that Bill W. gave us , we have a voice. Please let me know how things turned our in your group. Yours in AA, Dolores
----- Original Message -----
From: lee
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 5:57 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing....



The District Committee can do whatever the majority agrees upon. I would vote against such a motion. We have more Traditions than the formal Twelve. AA's other Traditions are dictated by what's done over time and in concert with what other similar AA entities do. The long-established method of seating treasurers and secretaries is by election. I have never heard of it being done any other way. If the District officers are chosen by one person on the basis of friendship, personal preference or subjective evaluation, we have completely bypassed the "loving God" as expressed in the group conscience. It sounds like a power grab and demagogic to me. I do think that the DCM should have the authority to appoint Standing Committee Chairpersons as he/she may have a good sense on these appointments and later would have the choice, if the Chairs failed in their duties, to replace them. A call to GSO might provide a little guidance here.
lee

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Robbins wrote:
>
> You might look at the AA Service Manual, Concept I.
>
>
> On 4/21/2010 1:58 PM, luv2shop wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> > I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not
> > looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and
> > could point me in the correct direction......
> >
> > Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the
> > current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the
> > district. In the past these positions have been filled through
> > elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to
> > appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with
> > and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2
> > states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they
> > do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to
> > "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way
> > but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?
> >
> > Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I
> > could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything
> > in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would
> > greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right
> > research direction.
> >
> > Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a
> > treasure trove of information!!
> >
> > Yours in the fellowship
> > Donna W.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6510|6491|2010-05-04 21:55:34|ricktompkins|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than |
In my experience and from what I've seen around the Fellowship, an
"appointed" service position is many times "Ad Hoc."

Ad Hoc can mean two things: 1) specific length of time or to accomplish a
specific goal, or 2) service in a specific task or position.



The AAWS Board and its service committees, for as long as I can remember,
have had Appointed Committee Members who serve Ad Hoc assisting the work of
the committee. I remember when the Fourth Edition stories were being
reviewed, Trustees Literature Committee had AAs as Appointed Committee
Members to help with its work. An old friend and past Delegate, who has
since passed away, applied for such a position when the Board request was
made, and his first 'assignment' was assisting in editing down the second AA
history book that languished through a few General Service Conference in the
early 1990s and never received approval to publish. The result of the
editing was "Collected Observations of AA" that was (and possibly still is,
in geographic-related sections from the AA Archives at GSO) available to
archivists working within the service structure. His next task was reviewing
submitted Fourth Edition personal stories for further consideration by
Trustees Literature. Then, when it came close to the time for final
Conference approval of the Fourth Edition, his work was done.



As to my Delegate Area and its Appointments, we have a few: Area Archivist
and Area Newsletter Editor come to mind. These are non-rotating service
positions that are loosely reaffirmed every two years, at the beginning of
the year following an Area election year. Our current Newsletter Editor has
been serving for over 10 years.

The Area Chairperson appoints these trusted servants and the Assembly
ratifies the selections by acclamation.



Hope this helps with your question; Ad Hoc is one effective way to look at
appointments. Example 1, I served my Area twice as Historian, once to
complete its history and a second time to update it, both times before the
Assembly's approval to publish it. Example 2, I was later appointed Area
Archivist and served for 5 years before my election to the Area Secretary
Committee---to establish an archives repository and manage the archival
items.



Rick, Illinois
















In the end that tradition about ultimate authority in the group conscience
is the ultimate authority and if an area, district or whatever decided to
follow down a path they also have to live with the consequences of that
choice. Much thought and deliberation needs to go into making decisions such
as these.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6511|6511|2010-05-05 12:12:35|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants...|
Benign anarchy and democracy is as Bill W said. He also said, They do not
govern.



In a message dated 5/5/2010 12:53:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dolli@dr-rinecker.de writes:

Our inverted Triangle helps us to remember that in service we are trusted
servants.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6512|6491|2010-05-05 12:12:44|gvanrobinson|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than |
Donna,

Our Area used to allow the Area Chairperson to appoint the Area Secretary. A while back it was the decision of the Area Fellowship that the Secretary should be an elected position. It was decided that this change would better serve the Area by allowing the Ultimate Authority to decide who would be allowed to serve.

Now, that is not saying that this is the way everyone should do things, which leads me to my suggestion of literature one might consider in instances like this.

It begins with Tradition 4 - Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole. - Any response from GSO will most likely refer you to this Tradition. Each Group, Intergroup, District, or Area is free do conduct their business however they wish provided that, in doing so, they don't interfere with any other AA body's ability to do the same. Translation: Your District can absolutely allow your chair to appoint other positions if they want to. If, at some point, they decide it doesn't work, they can change it back.

The guiding principles for this can be found in the 12 Concepts, a.k.a. "the best kept secret in AA." In particular Concept 2 which speaks to the delegation of authority, and Concept 10 which speaks to service authority. More importantly however, I would refer you to Concept 9 which speaks to the importance of good service leaders and "sound and appropriate methods of choosing them ..."

The bottom line is this: I doubt that you will ever find any definitive answer as to how your district should conduct your business, but, I am convinced that, by reviewing the guiding principles that our founders labored to leave us as their legacy, one can find Good Orderly Direction.

Good luck.

GVR


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "luv2shop" wrote:
>
> Hi everyone!
>
> I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and could point me in the correct direction......
>
>
> Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the district. In the past these positions have been filled through elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2 states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?
>
> Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right research direction.
>
> Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a treasure trove of information!!
>
> Yours in the fellowship
> Donna W.
>
| 6513|6491|2010-05-05 12:14:08|J. Lobdell|Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than |
When my wife was appointed as a Trustees' Committee Member in 2000, she submitted the same kind of resume (cv) required for application to be considered as a Director or Trustee, through the Delegate from her Area, was interviewed by the Secretary and the current Trustee Chairman of the Committee, then her name was submitted to the Conference (with the names of nominated Trustees and Directors) and approved. In the appointment of the Area Archivist, I believe the local Area (59) -- like Rick's Area --requires at least Area Committee (if not Assembly) approval, so that, if if the Archivist is appointed, it's the Area Committee that does the appointing. The Appointed Committee Members of Trustees' Committees serve regular four-year terms, or at least that was what my wife served -- not ad-hoc for a specific task. Also, Area 59 has ad-hoc Committees, but those AAs serving as Chairs, and the members of the Committees, are appointed for a term certain of two years. In the most recent panel, the Committees (Literature, Corrections, Treatment, CPC, PI, etc.) elected their own chairmen/ chairwomen, from among their members.

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: ricktompkins@comcast.net
> Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 20:37:26 -0500
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing....
>
> In my experience and from what I've seen around the Fellowship, an
> "appointed" service position is many times "Ad Hoc."
>
> Ad Hoc can mean two things: 1) specific length of time or to accomplish a
> specific goal, or 2) service in a specific task or position.
>
>
>
> The AAWS Board and its service committees, for as long as I can remember,
> have had Appointed Committee Members who serve Ad Hoc assisting the work of
> the committee. I remember when the Fourth Edition stories were being
> reviewed, Trustees Literature Committee had AAs as Appointed Committee
> Members to help with its work. An old friend and past Delegate, who has
> since passed away, applied for such a position when the Board request was
> made, and his first 'assignment' was assisting in editing down the second AA
> history book that languished through a few General Service Conference in the
> early 1990s and never received approval to publish. The result of the
> editing was "Collected Observations of AA" that was (and possibly still is,
> in geographic-related sections from the AA Archives at GSO) available to
> archivists working within the service structure. His next task was reviewing
> submitted Fourth Edition personal stories for further consideration by
> Trustees Literature. Then, when it came close to the time for final
> Conference approval of the Fourth Edition, his work was done.
>
>
>
> As to my Delegate Area and its Appointments, we have a few: Area Archivist
> and Area Newsletter Editor come to mind. These are non-rotating service
> positions that are loosely reaffirmed every two years, at the beginning of
> the year following an Area election year. Our current Newsletter Editor has
> been serving for over 10 years.
>
> The Area Chairperson appoints these trusted servants and the Assembly
> ratifies the selections by acclamation.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps with your question; Ad Hoc is one effective way to look at
> appointments. Example 1, I served my Area twice as Historian, once to
> complete its history and a second time to update it, both times before the
> Assembly's approval to publish it. Example 2, I was later appointed Area
> Archivist and served for 5 years before my election to the Area Secretary
> Committee---to establish an archives repository and manage the archival
> items.
>
>
>
> Rick, Illinois
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In the end that tradition about ultimate authority in the group conscience
> is the ultimate authority and if an area, district or whatever decided to
> follow down a path they also have to live with the consequences of that
> choice. Much thought and deliberation needs to go into making decisions such
> as these.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6514|6514|2010-05-10 18:06:12|diazeztone|Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor|
Judge sentences a man to "obtain an Alcoholics
Anonymous sponsor." Has any one heard of this
before?

St Cloud, Minnesota, News

Dwight King Alexander, 34, St. Cloud; terroristic threats, Nov. 21, 2009; imposition of sentence stayed on five years probation and 58 days in jail, fined $50 plus surcharges, ordered to complete a chemical dependency evaluation and domestic abuse program and follow recommendations, abstain from alcohol and non-prescribed mood-altering substances, undergo random urinalysis, provide a DNA sample, have no same or similar violations during probation, remain law abiding, have no contact with the victim, sign releases, attend weekly Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, obtain an Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor and participate in domestic violence court and comply with requirements. Judge: Grunke.

LD Pierce
aabibliography.com
| 6515|6515|2010-05-10 18:58:25|martinholmes76@ymail.com|Why was Fitz's alcoholic problem so complex?|
In the Big Book, in the Doctor's Opinion (p. xxxi) it says "this man's alcoholic problem was so complex". Why was his problem so complex?

- - - -

From Glenn C., the moderator: in trying to evaluate why Dr. Silkworth might have made this comment about Fitz Mayo, it would be well to run through some background.

Dr. Silkworth's entire statement on the matter is found in the Big Book 4th ed., on pp. xxxi-xxxii:

< case brought in by a physician prominent in New York.
The patient had made his own diagnosis and deciding his
situation hopeless, had hidden in a deserted barn deter-
mined to die. He was rescued by a searching party, and,
in desperate condition, brought to me. Following his
physical rehabilitation, he had a talk with me in which he
frankly stated he thought the treatment a waste of effort,
unless I could assure him, which no one ever had, that in
the future he would have the "will power" to resist the
impulse to drink.

His alcoholic problem was so complex and his depres-
sion so great, that we felt his only hope would be through
what we then called "moral psychology", and we doubted
if even that would have any effect.

However, he did become "sold" on the ideas contained
in this book. He has not had a drink for a great
many years [Fitz got sober in October 1935]. I see
him now and then and he is as fine a specimen of
manhood as one could wish to meet.>>

- - - -

The man in this story who had hidden in a barn was Fitz Mayo. His story in the BB is "Our Southern Friend."

- - - -

From silkworth.net:

"Our Southern Friend"

John H. F. (Fitz) M., Cumberstone, Maryland

(p. 226 in 1st edition, p. 460 in 2nd edition, p. 497 in 3rd edition, and p. 208 in 4th edition. In the first three editions it appeared under the section "They Nearly Lost All.")

They Lost Nearly All

"Pioneer A.A., minister's son, and southern farmer, he asked, 'Who am I to say there is no God?'"

Fitz' date of sobriety was October 1935. He was Bill's second or third success at 12th stepping after he returned from Akron in 1935. The first was Hank P. ("The Unbeliever" in the 1st edition), and the second probably William R., "A Business Man's Recovery" in the 1st edition.)

Fitz has been described as a blue blood from Maryland. Alcoholism may have run in his mother's side of the family. Fitz was, reportedly, quite handsome, with chiseled features. He had the quiet, easy charm of the landed gentry. Indeed, he was quite the Southern gentleman. Lois W. said Fitz was an impractical, lovable dreamer. His intellectual, scholarly qualities gave him common ground with Bill who - like Fitz - was also a dreamer.

He was the son of an Episcopalian minister. Alcoholism may have run in his mother's side of the family. They never drank at home, but when Fitz took his first drink when at college, he discovered that it removed his fear and sense of inferiority.

He attempted to enlist during World War I, but could not pass the physical. This added to his sense of inferiority.

He had a good job with a large corporation until the Great Depression. Later he worked at various jobs: traveling salesman, teacher and farmer. But he couldn't stop drinking. He was drunk when his mother-in-law died, when his own mother died, when his child was born.

His wife had heard of Towns Hospital in New York and urged him to go there. Finally he agreed.

Another patient told him about a group of men who were worse than he was but who didn't drink any more. This patient had tried the program but had slipped. He knew it was because he hadn't been honest. He asked Fitz if he believed in God. Fitz did not. Later, in his bed, the thought came: "Can all the worth while people I have known be wrong about God?" He took a look at his own history and suddenly a thought like a Voice came: "Who are you to say there is no God?"

Bill & Lois W. and Fitz M. and his wife became devoted friends, and visited one another often. Fitz frequently came up for the Tuesday night meeting at the Wilson home in Brooklyn. It was while Bill and Lois were visiting Fitz in Maryland in the summer of 1936 that Bill C., committed suicide. (See page 16 of the Big Book.) And Fitz, as well as Hank P. often joined Bill and Lois at Oxford Group house parties before A.A. broke away from the Oxford Group.

During the writing of the Big Book, Fitz insisted that the book should express Christian doctrines and use Biblical terms and expressions. Hank and Jim B. opposed him. The compromise was "God as we understood Him."

When the group was trying to decide on a name for the book, Fitz, because of his close proximity to Washington, was asked to go to the Library of Congress and find out how many books were called "The Way Out." His sister, Agnes, came to the their assistance when the printer refused to release the book he was holding - the first printing of Alcoholics Anonymous. Agnes loaned A.A. $1,000, the equivalent of nearly $12,000 today.

Fitz later started A.A. in Washington. Florence R. ("A Feminine Victory" in the 1st edition) joined him in Washington. It was Fitz who was called on to identify her body when she died. He sent one of his early sponsees (who never recovered) to see his old friend Jim B. in Washington ("The Vicious Cycle") when Jim was just coming off a binge.

In World War II, Fitz at last was able to join the Army, where he was found to be suffering from cancer. He died October 4, 1943, eight years after he stopped drinking. Fitz is buried on the grounds of Christ Episcopal Church at Owensville, MD, where his father had once been pastor. He is buried just a few feet from Jim B.

- - - -

ANY IDEAS AS TO WHY DR. SILKWORTH WOULD HAVE REGARDED

FITZ' PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS AS "SO COMPLEX"?
| 6516|6516|2010-05-10 19:41:41|martinholmes76@ymail.com|The AA version of moral psychology|
What was their version of moral psychology mentioned in the Big Book in the Doctor's opinion?

- - - -

From Glenn C., the moderator

(BB 4th ed. p. xxvii) Dr. Silkworth had been unable to
devise a method of "moral psychology" which would help
alcoholics, until Bill Wilson came to him as a patient, and
devised a program of recovery which Dr. Silkworth
allowed him to try out on other patients, a program
involving a kind of "moral psychology" which repeatedly
brought long term sobriety to apparently hopeless cases:

< of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics,
but its application presented difficulties beyond our concep-
tion. What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific
approach to everything, we are perhaps not well equipped
to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic
knowledge.

Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this
book [Bill W.] came under our care in this hospital and
while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical
application at once.>>

(BB 4th ed., pp. xxxi-xxxii) The "moral psychology"
developed in Bill Wilson's program of recovery was
even able to get Fitz Mayo sober in October 1935, even
though Dr. Silkworth and the other staff did not believe it
could work on someone with all of Fitz's complex problems:

< sion so great, that we felt his only hope would be through
what we then called "moral psychology", and we doubted
if even that would have any effect.

However, he did become "sold" on the ideas contained
in this book. He has not had a drink for a great many years.
I see him now and then and he is as fine a specimen of
manhood as one could wish to meet.

I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book
through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may re-
main to pray.>>

IT APPEARS TO ME as though "moral psychology" meant
the AA program of recovery as it existed c. October 1935,
which would mean something like the kind of roughly
devised six step program which Bill W., Earl Treat, and
Ebby described: http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html

Looking at the way Dr. Silkworth spoke of it, this
"moral psychology" seems to have involved helping
people learn how to better apply good moral
principles to their lives, and it also seems to
have involved helping them learn how to pray and
turn to a higher power for help.

It was very different from Freudian psychiatry,
which had no room for God or morality in most
people's sense of that word. And even Jung taught
no strongly moral message in the sense in which
Bill Wilson and the early AA's understood moral
behavior.

Dr. Silkworth had the vision of a kind of
psychology which was very different from any of
the various kinds of psychology and psychiatry
which were dominating the western world during the
1930's. But let us remember that the word
"psychotherapy" meant (in the original Greek)
"psyches therapeia," the "healing of the soul,"
or in Latin the "cura animarum."

How could you truly heal a sick soul, without
putting it back on a good moral path, and
restoring its relationship with God? Dr. Silkworth
was a very wise and insightful man, it strikes me,
who was willing to buck the secularizing and
atheistic tendencies of his times.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, US)
| 6517|6515|2010-05-10 21:24:06|John Barton|Re: Why was Fitz's alcoholic problem so complex?|
With respect to the additional info provided Fitz was second behind Hank to surrender and recover. William Ruddell didn't meet Bill or get sober until February of 1937. This is verified in Ruddell's first edition story as well as Lois's diary.

God Bless
| 6518|6518|2010-05-10 21:24:47|Lonnie|Historical definition of substantial unanimity|
I'm looking for the historical definition of "substantial unanimity" as used in the pamphlet "The AA Group... Where It All Begins" at the bottom of page 26.

Our group is struggling with an issue that has split the group at a 50/50 vote, and the question has been posed as to how we will define "substantial unanimity".

Any thoughts / help appreciated!

Lonnie V.
| 6519|6518|2010-05-10 22:48:28|Sober186@aol.com|Re: Historical definition of substantial unanimity|
Bill W. used the term in an article in the October 1946, and defined it at
that time as a two thirds vote. The same idea is contained in the
pamphlet, "The AA Group ... Where It All Begins" (p. 34-35): If one is in a
hurry, skip to the last sentence.

"The group conscience is the collective conscience of the group membership
and thus represents substantial unanimity on an issue before definitive
action is taken. This is achieved by the group members through the sharing of
full information, individual points of view, and the practice of AA
principles. To be fully informed requires a willingness to listen to minority
opinions with an open mind.

"On sensitive issues, the group works slowly -- discouraging formal motions
until a clear sense of its collective view emerges. Placing principles
before personalities, the membership is wary of dominant opinions. Its voice
is heard when a well-informed group arrives at a decision. The result rests
on more than a 'yes' or 'no' count -- precisely because it is the spiritual
expression of the group conscience. The term 'informed group conscience'
implies that pertinent information has been studied and all views have been
heard before the group votes."

Within The e-AA Group, "substantial unanimity" means a 2/3 majority
whenever possible.

Jim L
Central Ohio
| 6520|6514|2010-05-11 12:04:01|John Moore|Re: Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor|
From John Moore, Jim in Central Ohio, Rotax Steve, and Elisabeth

- - - -

From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>
(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

Yes, courts have been sending drunks, and others, to AA for as long as I
have been sober. Getting a sponsor is a requirement of many facilities and
it is no surprise that the courts do to sometimes.

The first I heard of it was in 1972 in my home group and outrage prevailed
because you cannot force someone to come to AA, or to get a sponsor...it is
supposed to be voluntary. That view turned out to be short sighted because
alkies were coming and getting sober and doing well in spite of all
predictions to the contrary.

Last couple years I had a commitment on Wed nites at a halfway house and
there was a stack of court papers and resident papers to be signed each
week. Not unusual to sign 20 or 30 of them at a meeting. Some told me that
they had to find a sponsor to satisfy the terms of their release or their
residency in treatment. It is not easy because many AAs felt they were
being used by the system, and one man told me he refuses to sponsor anyone
who is in treatment, detox or under court orders.

Personally I don't care. I had great men get drunk under my sponsorship,
and had total losers become fine men in spite of how they arrived. If a man
is willing, I try to help if I possibly can.

John M
South Burlington, Vermont

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

Not exactly the same sentence, but one local judge says he never sentences
a person to attend AA. He gives them an option of either going to jail for
x number of days or attending a few AA meetings a week for the same
length of time. He says they seem to always like the AA option. He also says
he makes it clear if he catches them skipping the AA meetings, they will
serve the full jail time. Very few skip the meetings.

We also had a Juvenile court judge in a small town sentencing youngsters
to attend AA meetings. Sometimes they were a little disruptive. A few
members of AA made an appointment with the judge and explained the concept of
Open and Closed meetings. He then only sentenced them to Open AA meetings.

AA membership does not require having a sponsor, but that makes no
difference. A judge can do anything the judge wishes until he gets over ruled
by a higher court. (Of course he may not get re elected)

Jim in Central Ohio

- - - -

From: "Rotax Steve" <gallery5@mindspring.com>
(gallery5 at mindspring.com)

I see it at every meeting I go to. Recently my home group has been flooded with
court cards.

I have often wondered how and when the courts started sending people to AA?

I try to be involved more with CPCPI and it bugs me when people are "sentenced
to AA". I try to tell judges that AA is not punishment and that those who are
sent there by the courts consider it so.

I would say that perhaps 1 in 15 do stay after there court card requirements are
finished (but usually not for very long) so that is good but what's not good are
the other 14 who can be disruptive and use the group for therapy which waters
down the whole meeting. Long standing members try to steer topics toward the
program for discussion but it's difficult.

~ Rotax Steve

- - - -

From: "Elisabeth" <elisabeth98043@yahoo.com>
(elisabeth98043 at yahoo.com)

No! It's amazing that he didn't order him to do a 5th step ... excuse the
sarcasm ...
| 6521|6514|2010-05-15 12:20:20|Rick Benchoff|Re: Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor|
From Rick Benchoff, LD Pierce, and Jim S.

- - - -

From: Rick Benchoff <rxichard2nd@yahoo.com>
(rxichard2nd at yahoo.com)

Greetings to my fellow AA History Lovers:

A.A. has a long history of cooperation with the professional community,
especially local judiciary. In meetings I often hear this modification to our
Third Tradition that often "the desire to stop drinking may belong to the
judge!"

It is well known that various U.S. courts have ruled that people cannot be
ordered to attend A.A. meetings
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2007/09/07/0615474.pdf
but I can readily attest that in Maryland district and circuit judges
as well as the state Motor Vehicle Administration still routinely
order offenders to attend A.A. meetings.

Back in the 1980's the Maryland court systems in conjunction with the Division
of Parole and Probation developed the Drinking Driver Monitor Program (DDMP).
Prior to start of the DDMP courts were sending offenders to mandatory AA
meetings, but nothing on the scale that was seen after the start of the DDMP.
Within a few years the number of court-ordered DWI offenders was enormous. To
make a long story short, the service structure of our area (Area 29) decided
(after much debate, see this link:
http://www.intoaction.org/files/general12step/courtslips.pdf
to issue a "Call for Unity" and respectfully ask that groups in
Maryland no longer sign DDMP attendance slips. Most groups
voluntarily agreed to stop signing slips. The problems associated
with the influx of "slip signees" decreased dramatically.

Today judges and the MVA continue to send DWI offenders to AA, but usually the
offenders sent are repeat offenders (and usually have been diagnosed by a
treatment professional as having an alcohol use disorder), rather than
first-time offenders. Most DDMP monitors no longer require that an attendance
slip be signed by an AA member, but that the attendee must record information
about the meeting, such as the date, time, location and name of the meeting,
meeting topic, name of the meeting leader or secretary, and the name of the last
person to speak. This eliminates the need to have a slip signed (and makes it
difficult for the attendee to falsify).

I first came into AA in 1987 in the midst of the court signing debate carrying a
court slip. I encountered much hostility at the time, but eventually the
judge's desire for me to attend A.A. meetings developed into my own. There's
another saying that I often hear in meetings, "I first came to meetings because
I had to, then I came because I wanted to, finally I came because it's Tuesday
night and it's 8 o'clock."

The General Service Office has a number of pdf's available online about this
very topic:

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-177_en.pdf

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-05_coopwithcourt.pdf

In this posting I haven't mentioned the controversy of treatment centers sending
people that self-identify as drug addicts. I'll skip that hot topic entirely.

With warm regards,

Rick B.
Hagerstown, Maryland

- - - -

From: "diazeztone" <eztone@hotmail.com>
(eztone at hotmail.com)

My main point in posting this was that I have always seen people sentence to AA.
I was one of them. My AA history website is dedicated to the Judge who sentenced
me!!

However this is the first case I have heard of (in my 15 years sober)
of the court requiring a documented must get "An AA Sponsor"

I give my own opinion on this in a page on the aabibliography web site:

http://www.aabibliography.com/aa_paper_signers_probation_parole_alcoholics_anonymous.html

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" <planternva2000@yahoo.com>
(planternva2000 at yahoo.com)

So?

For years the local treatment facilities have been requiring inmates to get a
'temporary' sponsor and home group. Some get sober, some don't.
I think one of our traditions says something about it not being AA's business
what outside enterprises do.

Jim S.
| 6522|6514|2010-05-15 12:24:19|Craig Keith|Re: Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor|
As I recall, it was the latter part of 1934 when
a judge in effect sentenced one Ebby T. to attend
Oxford group meetings.

That's the first "court ordered" person I've heard
about.
| 6523|6518|2010-05-15 12:48:06|Tom Hickcox|Re: Historical definition of substantial unanimity|
From Tommy H. and kevinr1211

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

In the current pamphlet, the material quoted below
(less the last sentence which does not have quotation
marks) is on pp. 26-27. That "'substantial
unanimity' means a 2/3 majority whenever possible"
is not attributed.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

At 00:31 5/11/2010, Sober186@aol.com wrote:

>Bill W. used the term in an article in the October 1946, and defined it at
>that time as a two thirds vote. The same idea is contained in the
>pamphlet, "The AA Group ... Where It All Begins" (p. 34-35): If
>one is in a
>hurry, skip to the last sentence.
>
>"The group conscience is the collective conscience of the group membership
>and thus represents substantial unanimity on an issue before definitive
>action is taken. This is achieved by the group members through the
>sharing of
>full information, individual points of view, and the practice of AA
>principles. To be fully informed requires a willingness to listen
>to minority
>opinions with an open mind.
>
>"On sensitive issues, the group works slowly -- discouraging formal motions
> until a clear sense of its collective view emerges. Placing principles
>before personalities, the membership is wary of dominant opinions. Its voice
>is heard when a well-informed group arrives at a decision. The result rests
>on more than a 'yes' or 'no' count -- precisely because it is the spiritual
>expression of the group conscience. The term 'informed group conscience'
>implies that pertinent information has been studied and all views have been
>heard before the group votes."
>
>Within The e-AA Group, "substantial unanimity" means a 2/3 majority
>whenever possible.

- - - -

From: "kevinr1211" <analystkmr@hotmail.com>
(analystkmr at hotmail.com)

In our basic text, chapter 2, a statement is made that defines AA's unanimity,
its the famous line beginning with "We have a way out on which we can absolutely
agree..."

In my experience, when it is hard to get a group to agree on an issue beyond our
basic tenets of our basic purpose of staying sober,several principles outside
unanimity can be used, especially when there is a stated divide, as you
describe. I question the very premise of your question: should you be even using
the "substantial unanimity" principle when the opposite seems to be the case?
Not everything in life is resolved. -k.

In the original question, "Lonnie" wrote:
< vote, and the question has been posed as to how we will define "substantial
unanimity.">>
| 6524|6524|2010-05-15 13:23:17|intuited|The Pause Prayer|
Hi All, I am particularly curious about the
"Pause Prayer" (Big Book pp. 87�88):

"As we go through the day we pause, when agitated
or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or
action. We constantly remind ourselves we are
no longer running the show, humbly saying to
ourselves many times each day "Thy will be done."
We are then in much less danger of excitement,
fear, anger, worry, self-pity, or foolish
decisions. We become much more efficient. We do
not tire so easily, for we are not burning up
energy foolishly as we did when we were trying
to arrange life to suit ourselves."

This reference to present moment guidance is
somewhat different than the emphasis on
anticipating the day (future) or reviewing
the day (past).

I would love to know what the history of this
emphasis was and are there any particular stories
about this present moment focus?

Thanks, Amelia B
| 6525|5331|2010-05-15 14:23:15|Tom Hickcox|Awfully tough Irishman|
We had our monthly Tradition meeting today.

I thought I had noted who the "awfully tough Irishman" mentioned in
the chapter on the 5th Tradition, but I hadn't.

I searched A.A.H.L.'s archive and the question is asked but not answered.

Who was he?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

FROM THE CHAPTER IN THE 12+12 ON THE FIFTH TRADITION:

[From the moderator: and please note that the main
point in this section is that the "primary purpose"
which AA must uphold with a total "singleness of
purpose" is TO TALK ABOUT RECOVERING FROM ALCOHOLISM,
NOT to talk to people about RELIGION.

Conservative Protestant evangelicals are NOT to
start preaching to Roman Catholics that they must
have a revivalist style born again experience where
they take Jesus as their personal savior, and vice
versa, Roman Catholics are NOT to start preaching to
Protestants that they have to follow Roman Catholic
dogmas about the Trinity and the Blessed Virgin Mary,
and BOTH groups are NOT to start preaching
Christianity at all to Jews, Buddhists, Hindus,
Muslims, etc.

Read what follows, and you will see that this is so.]

- - - -

"Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."

"Restless one day, I felt I'd better do some Twelfth Step work. Maybe I
should take out some insurance against a slip. But first I'd have to find a
drunk to work on.
"So I hopped the subway to Towns Hospital, where I asked Dr. Silkworth if he
had a prospect. `Nothing too promising,' the little doc said. `There's just
one chap on the third floor who might be a possibility. But he's an awfully
tough Irishman. I never saw a man so obstinate. He shouts that if his partner
would treat him better, and his wife would leave him alone, he'd soon solve his
alcohol problem. He's had a bad case of D.T.'s, he's pretty foggy, and he's
very suspicious of everybody. Doesn't sound too good, does it? But working
with him may do something for you, so why don't you have a go at it?'
"I was soon sitting beside a big hulk of a man. Decidedly unfriendly, he
stared at me out of eyes which were slits in his red and swollen face. I had
to agree with the doctor - he certainly didn't look god. But I told him my own
story. I explained what a wonderful Fellowship we had, how well we understood
each other. I bore down hard on the hopelessness of the drunk's dilemma. I
insisted that few drunks could ever get well on their own steam, but that in
our groups we could do together what we could not do separately. He
interrupted to scoff at this and asserted he'd fix his wife, his partner, and
his alcoholism by himself. Sarcastically he asked, `How much does your scheme
cost?'
"I was thankful I could tell him, `Nothing at all.'
"His next question: `What are you getting out of it?'
"Of course, my answer was `My own sobriety and a mighty happy life.'
"Still dubious, he demanded, `Do you really mean the only reason you are here
is to try and help me and to help yourself?'
"`Yes,' I said. `That's absolutely all there is to it. There's no angle.'
"Then, hesitantly, I ventured to talk about the spiritual side of our program.
What a freeze that drunk gave me! I'd no sooner got the word `spiritual' out
of my mouth than he pounced. `Oh!' he said. `Now I get it! You're
proselytizing for some damn religious sect or other. Where do you get that "no
angle" stuff? I belong to a great church that means everything to me. You've
got a nerve to come in here talking religion!"
"Thank heaven I came up with the right answer for that one. It was based
foursquare on the single purpose of A.A. `You have faith,' I said. `Perhaps
far deeper faith than mine. No doubt you're better taught in religious matters
than I. So I can't tell you anything about religion. I don't even want to
try. I'll bet, too, that you could give me a letter-perfect definition of
humility. But from what you've told me about yourself and your problems and
how you propose to lock them, I think I know what's wrong.'
"`Okay,' he said. `Give me the business.'
"`Well,' I said, `I think you're just a conceited Irishman who thinks he can
run the whole show.'
"This really rocked him. But as he calmed down, he began to listen while I
tried to show him that humility was the main key to sobriety. Finally, he saw
that I wasn't attempting to change his religious views, that I wanted him to
find the grace in his own religion that would aid his recovery. From there on
we got along fine.
"Now," concludes the oldtimer, "suppose I'd been obliged to talk to this man
on religious grounds? Suppose my answer had to be that A.A. needed a lot of
money; that A.A. went in for education, hospital, and rehabilitation? Suppose
I'd suggested that I'd take a hand in his domestic and business affairs? Where
would we have wound up? No place, of course."
Years later, this tough Irish customer liked to say, "my sponsor sold me one
idea, and that was sobriety. At the time, I couldn't have bought anything
else."
| 6526|5877|2010-05-15 14:25:42|Dov|Re: The Irishman in the chapter on Tradition Five in the 12 and 12|
According to Fr Ed Dowling quoted in p.47 of "Not God" Morgan R(yan) was fresh out of Greystone asylum which does not fit the 12&12 Tradition Five description of the Irishman in Towns Hospital. (Note that Fr Dowling is quoted as saying that Morgan R was the only Roman Catholic in New York not the only Roman Catholic in AA).

I was wondering whether another early Irish AA, Tom M. was a candidate. "Old Tom" is described (in AA Comes of Age) as the brusque Irish janitor of the AA clubhouse who announced Father Ed as 'some bum from St. Louis'. That would seem at first sight to match the tough Irishman description in the 12 and 12. However he was brought into AA by Bill & Lois from Rockland State asylum, which would rule him out too.

However I do not know of any need to believe that the incident took place in early AA because according to an article by Leonard Blumberg, (Professor of Sociology, Temple University, Philadelphia Vol. 38. No. 11, 1977, "The Ideology of a Therapeutic Social Movement: Alcoholics Anonymous") Dr. Silkworth continued to work at Towns until his death in 1951 (http://www.silkworth.net/silkworth/silkworth_bio.html).

By 1951 there may well have been more than one tough Irishman in AA which could make it very difficult to identify the individual mentioned in Tradition Five.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom V wrote:
>
> If the story goes back to the very early AA
> period, Morgan Ryan, who was the only Roman
> Catholic AA member at the time the Big Book
> was published, had an obviously Irish last
> name.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: kodom2545
>
> Do we know who the Irishman is in the chapter
> on Tradition Five in the Twelve Steps and
> Twelve Traditions, pp. 151-154?
>
> It was a man in Towns Hospital whom Dr.
> Silkworth indicated as someone who might be
> a possible candidate for the A.A. program.
>
> God Bless,
>
> Kyle
>
| 6527|6527|2010-05-15 14:36:27|mfmargetis|Sylvia K's Doctor|
Hi All,

I searched but could not seem to find the answer to this question,
forgive me if I didn't look hard enough. In Sylvia K's story "The Keys
To The Kingdom" do we know who the Doctor in Evanston is?

Thanks,

-Mike Margetis

Brunswick, MD

- - - -

For short biographies of the authors of the
stories in the Big Book see:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html

The following account is given there:

According to member list index cards kept by the Chicago group, Sylvia's date of sobriety was September 13, 1939. Because of slips by Marty Mann ("Women Suffer Too,") Sylvia may have been the first woman to achieve long term sobriety ....

She moved to Chicago thinking a new environment would help. She tried all sorts of things to control her drinking: the beer diet, the wine diet, timing, measuring, and spacing of drinks. Nothing worked.

The next three years saw her in sanitariums, once in a ten-day coma from which she very nearly died. She wanted to die, but had lost the courage to try.

For about one year prior to this time there was one doctor who did not give up on her. He tried everything he could think of, including having her go to mass every morning at six a.m., and performing the most menial labor for his charity patients. This doctor apparently had the intuitive knowledge that spirituality and helping others might be the answer.

In the 1939 this doctor heard of the book Alcoholics Anonymous and wrote to New York for a copy. After reading it he tucked it under his arm and called on Sylvia. That visit marked the turning point of her life.

Then he told her of the handful of people in Akron and New York who seemed to have worked out a technique for arresting their alcoholism. He asked her to read the book and to talk with a man who experiencing success by using this plan. This was Earl Treat ("He Sold Himself Short"), the "Mr. T." to whom she refers on page 309.

Earl suggested she visit Akron .... Sylvia stayed two weeks with the Snyders (Clarence Snyder, "The Home Brewmeister) in Cleveland. She met Dr. Bob, who brought other A.A. men to meet her ....

She went back to Chicago where she eventually got sober. She worked closely with Earl Treat, and her personal secretary, Grace Cultice, became the first secretary at the Intergroup office in Chicago, the first in the country.
| 6528|6516|2010-05-17 10:47:38|corafinch|Re: The AA version of moral psychology|
This phrase may be creating confusion because readers tend to assume that Silkworth was referring to some type of therapeutic modality. By "moral psychology," did he actually mean a type of clinical or counseling psychology in which the concept of morals was prominent, or did he mean something outside of the therapeutic realm?

In the 19th century, "moral psychology" was a branch of ethics. Ethics had originally been strictly theological, then philosophical. Then a more naturalistic approach evolved, including attention to human decision-making, emotion, motivation and character development. I believe this was the sense in which Silkworth used the term. Yes, he was writing in the 20th century and by that time things had changed somewhat, due to the influence of William James and William MacDougal. But even at the time he was writing, no branch of clinical or medical psychology, as far as I can tell, was using the term "moral psychology" to describe itself. Silkworth was probably going back to the traditional use of the phrase as a psychologically-informed approach to conduct.

Silkworth may have been thinking of the Emmanuel Movement or its spin-offs, of the social-psychology approach then used by Dr. Riggs in Stockbridge, or of the various work-cure places where the wealthy could go to chop wood and do other menial labor. Or maybe he was thinking of the Keeley-cure alumni associations where people who dried out at Keeley clinics got together to strengthen one another's resolve. There were also the religiously-based missions such as Calvary, and of course the Oxford Group. None of these specifically said they were based on "moral psychology," however.

I certainly don't read him as saying that other doctors did not feel this way. In fact, he is saying the opposite: that medical people have always known that people acquire the motivation and strength to stop drinking for complex reasons not within the doctor's control. We would now put those reasons and that process in the general realm of "spirituality," but I don't think that word was in Silkworth's vocabulary at the time.

Doctors, like most people, were inclined to become moralistic about alcohol over-consumption, but of course they had to be on guard not to communicate this explicitly to the patient. It just wasn't, and isn't, part of the role, rarely does any good, and may do harm. I don't think Silkworth was saying anything more complicated than that. Certainly not that there were doctors (Freudian or otherwise) who didn't believe morals had anything to do with solving drinking problems.




--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "martinholmes76@..." wrote:
>
> What was their version of moral psychology mentioned in the Big Book in the Doctor's opinion?
>
> - - - -
>
> From Glenn C., the moderator
>
> (BB 4th ed. p. xxvii) Dr. Silkworth had been unable to
> devise a method of "moral psychology" which would help
> alcoholics, until Bill Wilson came to him as a patient, and
> devised a program of recovery which Dr. Silkworth
> allowed him to try out on other patients, a program
> involving a kind of "moral psychology" which repeatedly
> brought long term sobriety to apparently hopeless cases:
>
> < > of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics,
> but its application presented difficulties beyond our concep-
> tion. What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific
> approach to everything, we are perhaps not well equipped
> to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic
> knowledge.
>

>
| 6529|6527|2010-05-22 13:02:43|Michael|Re: Sylvia K's Doctor|
From Mike M., tcumming, and Don B.

- - - -

From: "Michael" <mfmargetis@yahoo.com>
(mfmargetis at yahoo.com)

Thank you "tcumming" for answering the question.

"page 22 pf AA COMES OF AGE identifies Sylvia's doctor as a DR BROWN"

Next question: What do we know about Dr. Brown? With everything he was
trying to do to help Sylvia he seemed incredibly enlightened and open
minded.

Thanks,

-Mike Margetis

- - - -

From Don B., Chicago historian and archivist

Her doctor was Dr. Seth Brown from Evanston, which was where Earl Treat lived ..... and Earl contacted Dr. Brown, Sylvia came through Akron before returning to Chicao ... but she got drunk on the train home ...... but stayed sober everafter ...... D.O.S. 9/13/39

- - - -

For Don's HISTORY OF CHICAGO AA, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/chicago1.pdf
listed on http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

- - - -

>
> Hi All,
>
> I searched but could not seem to find the answer to this question,
> forgive me if I didn't look hard enough. In Sylvia K's story "The Keys
> To The Kingdom" do we know who the Doctor in Evanston is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Mike Margetis
>
> Brunswick, MD
>
> - - - -
>
> For short biographies of the authors of the
> stories in the Big Book see:
>
> http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm
>
> http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html
>
> The following account is given there:
>
> According to member list index cards kept by the Chicago group,
Sylvia's date of sobriety was September 13, 1939. Because of slips by
Marty Mann ("Women Suffer Too,") Sylvia may have been the first woman to
achieve long term sobriety ....
>
> She moved to Chicago thinking a new environment would help. She tried
all sorts of things to control her drinking: the beer diet, the wine
diet, timing, measuring, and spacing of drinks. Nothing worked.
>
> The next three years saw her in sanitariums, once in a ten-day coma
from which she very nearly died. She wanted to die, but had lost the
courage to try.
>
> For about one year prior to this time there was one doctor who did not
give up on her. He tried everything he could think of, including having
her go to mass every morning at six a.m., and performing the most menial
labor for his charity patients. This doctor apparently had the intuitive
knowledge that spirituality and helping others might be the answer.
>
> In the 1939 this doctor heard of the book Alcoholics Anonymous and
wrote to New York for a copy. After reading it he tucked it under his
arm and called on Sylvia. That visit marked the turning point of her
life.
>
> Then he told her of the handful of people in Akron and New York who
seemed to have worked out a technique for arresting their alcoholism. He
asked her to read the book and to talk with a man who experiencing
success by using this plan. This was Earl Treat ("He Sold Himself
Short"), the "Mr. T." to whom she refers on page 309.
>
> Earl suggested she visit Akron .... Sylvia stayed two weeks with the
Snyders (Clarence Snyder, "The Home Brewmeister) in Cleveland. She met
Dr. Bob, who brought other A.A. men to meet her ....
>
> She went back to Chicago where she eventually got sober. She worked
closely with Earl Treat, and her personal secretary, Grace Cultice,
became the first secretary at the Intergroup office in Chicago, the
first in the country.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6530|6530|2010-05-22 13:06:37|M.J. Johnson|Dave B.'s uncle in New Hampshire|
I've read the information that has been published both on
silkworth.netand in the archives on Dave B.'s story, "Gratitude in
Action" (p. 193, 4th edition of the Big Book).

http://silkworth.net/aabiography/4thed/DaveB.html

On page 195, Dave B. describes driving a 1931 Ford from Cape Cod up to
Canada. On the way, "we stopped at my uncle's place in New Hampshire".

Does anyone know anything about Dave's uncle? His name, or where in New
Hampshire he may have lived?

In gratitude,

- M.J.
| 6531|6531|2010-05-22 13:12:18|momaria33772|Akron honors Dr. Bob by re-naming part of Olive Street|
Dr. Bob's Way coming to Akron
Portion of Olive St. will be designated for AA co-founder

By Stephanie Warsmith

Beacon Journal staff writer

Published on Tuesday, May 18, 2010

Each year, thousands travel to Akron to recognize Dr. Bob Smith for co-founding Alcoholics Anonymous.
This year, Akron will thank Dr. Bob in a special way — by naming part of a street after him.
Akron City Council on Monday voted to designate the section of Olive Street from North Main Street to North Howard Street
''Dr. Bob's Way.'' This section of Olive is on the north end of St. Thomas Hospital, which featured the first hospital specialty
unit to treat alcoholism as a medical condition. The street designation will help celebrate the 75th anniversary of AA

starting in Akron on June 10.
''I think it's a good piece of legislation and a good way to honor Dr. Bob,'' said Councilman Jeff Fusco. Summit County
Councilwoman Ilene Shapiro urged Please see Dr. Bob, council members to redesignate the street and create a historical
marker. ''I think it's a lovely tribute to his memory,'' she said.

The city didn't want to rename Olive because of the inconvenience this would cause to St. Thomas staff who have
documents printed with the current street name, said Deputy Mayor Dave Lieberth. Signs with the new designation will be
added on Olive at Main, Howard and Schiller Avenue after a ceremony June 14 at St. Thomas.

Stephanie Warsmith can be reached at 330-996-3705 or swarsmith@thebeaconjournal.com.

Or go the the site directly
http://www.ohio.com/news/94046929.html
| 6533|6516|2010-05-22 13:48:35|Jim|Re: The AA version of moral psychology|
The subject of "Moral Psychology" was brought up some years ago on
"aahistorybuffs" as to its meanings. I have found the following:

Post 292 -on AAHistoryLovers
kyyank@a ...
Date: Sun,Jun 23,2002, 11:26pm
Re: Moral psychology

Friends,
Re: Recent WDS "moral psychology" posting: Silky frequently challenged
both clergy and psychologists to assist in the public education of the
moral deficiencies found within the alcoholic population as a means to
recognize early warning signs. The difference between the use of
"psychology" (Jung), "spiritual awakening" (WDS), and "spiritual
experience" (James) are in most cases interchangeable, but explained in
detail in the new book: "SILKWORTH - The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks"
Hazelden Education and Information Services. All of the WDS speeches
and private writings are also included within this book.

----------------------------------------

The following was taken from the new Silkworth book mentioned above:

"Doctor Silkworth presented Alcoholics Anonymous as having two distinct
parts - moral psychology and group psychology. In a 1939 article, be
blamed those who relapsed of "taking the path of least resistance - group
psychology." These people, he believed, attended meetings, engaged in
Twelve Step work, spoke at AA meetings, yet relapsed because they
ignored the importance of moral psychology, what Silkworth called "the
vital principle of Alcoholics Anonymous."

He believed alcoholism had both a physiological and and a psychological
component. Without hesitation, Dr. Silkworth always made a case that the
physiological preceded the psychological. In this regard, he said, "AA
can not do anything about the physiological phase. Once an alcoholic,
always an alcoholic. But, the plan of Alcoholics Anonymous can arrest
the psychological compulsion to drink." It is thought that Bill Wilson
later referred to this Silkworth statement at an AA convention.

Interestingly enough, Silkworth's description of the early warning signs
of alcoholism form the basis for the Short Michigan Alcoholism Screening
Test (SMAST), now used worldwide in alcoholism diagnosis.

Silkworth Alcohol Screening Test
(early warning signs)

1. Do you notice you can drink more than your friends?
2. Do you cheat about how much you can drink?
3. Is your work or personal life ignored?
4. Do you eat less when drinking?
5. Is liquor essential in your life?
6. Do you deny any of this?
7. Do you believe you can stop at any time?
8. Do you resent advice about your drinking?

In 1947, Dr. Silkworth was again approached by AA for help in
off-setting the public reaction to continued relapse among alcoholics.
There was still a large school that believed the alcoholic relapse was
indicative of a failed cure. Silkworth admonishes this population with
his article "Slips and Human Nature." Also in this article, Silkworth
likens alcoholism to other chronic diseases. In another first by a
medical doctor, he equates relapse with a failed program, much as a
tuberculosis patient might relapse if he, too, discontinued the
prescribed medication and lifestyle. He wrote, "The alcoholic 'slip' is
not a symptom of a psychotic condition. There is nothing 'screwy' about
it at all. The patient simply didn't follow directions."

Silkworth had also supported Dr. Haggard, a researcher at Yale, in his
description of relapse. "Slips and Human Nature" mimics the thoughts of
Haggard, or vise versa. In the paper, Silkworth had tired of the
discussions on relapse as a moral failure, and the subsequent blame on
the "alcoholic behavior," and attributed relapse more to simple human
nature:

Lets get it clear, once and for all, that alcoholics are human beings
just like other human beings - then we can safeguard ourselves
intelligently against most of the slips.
Both in professional and lay circles, there is a tendency to label
everything that an alcoholic may do as "alcoholic behavior." The truth
is simple human nature!

Silkworth went on to say

The slip is a relapse! It is a relapse that occurs after the alcoholic
has stopped drinking and started on the A.A. program of recovery ....
No one is startled by the fact that relapses are not uncommon among
arrested tubercular patients. But here is a startling fact - the cause is
often the same as the cause which leads to "slips" for alcoholics."

-Above excerpt from, "SILKWORTH, The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks" -by
Dale Mitchel

----------------------------------------

On aahistorybuffs
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/messages> , see the
following posts on the subject of Dr. Silkworth's moral psychology
mentioned in the Doctors Opinion, Big Book, page xxxi, 4th paragraph:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/366
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/366>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/453
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/453>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/581
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/581>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/668
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/668>

There may be a few others to look into as well. I believe that Barefoot
Bill (Lash) also posted a few articles which contain "moral psychology"

Yours in service,
Jim M. from http://www.silkworth.net/ <http://www.silkworth.net/>
| 6534|6534|2010-05-23 19:22:40|Arthur S|AAHistoryLovers get-together in San Antonio|
For the History Lovers going to San Antonio for
the A.A. International Convention, July 1-4, 2010.

Would it be possible to somehow take a poll and
pick a date, time and location to gather together
and see what we look like up close and personal?

I've met some History Lovers folks at the National
Archives Workshops and would love to meet more at
the International.

I never cease to be amazed at how absolutely
terrible I am at preconceiving how email authors
might look like and how they actually turn out
in person.

Cheers

Arthur
| 6535|6534|2010-05-23 19:32:16|Glenn Chesnut|Re: AAHistoryLovers get-together in San Antonio|
I think Arthur has a great idea.

I plan to spend a lot of my time in the

A.A. ONLINE HOSPITALITY SUITE

which the Advance Program says will be located in the Grand Hyatt Hotel (the main convention hotel) in Crockett Suite A/B.

I phoned the New York GSO on Friday, and they said that the A.A. Online hospitality suite was for all AA-related online groups, including groups like the AAHistoryLovers, and they encouraged us to drop in and spend time there whenever we wished. So this seems like it could be a very good place to meet.

The hospitality rooms will be open on Thursday through Saturday, they told me, but not on Sunday.

And Thursday would probably not be a good day to meet, given that we have given folks no advance warning. Since no convention activities are scheduled until the party and dance at 7:00 p.m. on Thursday evening, most people will most likely have their travel plans set up so that they will be arriving on Thursday afternoon or evening.

So some time on Friday or Saturday would seem like it would give the most people an opportunity to attend.
______________________________

ADVANCE PROGRAM
A.A. International Convention
San Antonio, Texas -- July 1-4, 2010
http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/2010IC_AdvanceProgram.pdf

THURSDAY, July 1, 2010

7:00 p.m. -- convention begins Thursday night with a Party in the Park right outside Halls C & D of the Convention Center in Hemisfair Park. Start in the park; hop on into the Convention Center and swing over to the Grand Hyatt San Antonio for dancing fun.

FRIDAY, July 2, 2010

9:00 a.m.-5:30 p.m.
A.A. topic meetings, workshops, panels, special interest meetings, and regional meetings will be held Friday and Saturday at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center and the Grand Hyatt San Antonio.

8:00 p.m.
Friday night we all come together in the Alamodome Stadium for the Flag Ceremony and Opening A.A. Meeting.

SATURDAY, July 3, 2010

9:00 a.m.-5:30 p.m.
A.A. topic meetings, workshops, panels, special interest meetings, and regional meetings will be held Friday and Saturday at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center and the Grand Hyatt San Antonio.

8:00 p.m.
Saturday night Old-timers A.A. Meeting.

SUNDAY, July 4, 2010

9:00 a.m.-11:00 a.m.
Sunday morning the Closing A.A. Meeting.
______________________________

I am looking forward to seeing lots of the wonderful people in the AAHistoryLovers in San Antonio.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator
AAHistoryLovers
| 6536|6536|2010-05-24 12:55:34|sonja400@rogers.com|Searching for Letter to Alcoholic Foundation by Bill McI., 1946|
Hi, folks,

I'm new to this group. I'd like help finding a particular letter - I'd like to see the original before a copy of it goes into our Toronto newsletter. I don't know how to search online for it.

It is a letter to Alcholoic Foundation by Bill McI., Secretary for Toronto AA Central Group. It is dated March 20, 1946. It starts off as follows:

"Dear Bobbie:

I realize that I am reporting in rather late, but AA has been moving very rapidly here since the first of the year and moving in the right direction. We started off with our New Year's party which was a grand success and quite different from a year previous when four of us sat in a morgue like atmosphere drinking ginger ale and wondering if it was worth it. This year we had well over 100 happy, laughing sober people. Truly a tribute to the way AA works."

Perhaps someone can not only find this particular letter for me, but also tell me how I go about searching for specific articles. Sonja
| 6537|6531|2010-05-24 12:55:35|Arthur S|Re: Akron honors Dr. Bob by re-naming part of Olive Street|
I know this is being done with the best of intentions but if Dr Bob made
anything clear prior to his death it was that he did not want this kind of
recognition.

It seems that more and more, the respect for AA's anonymity Traditions are
either dissolving or being trivialized (always with the best of intentions
of course).

Cheers

Arthur

- - - -

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of momaria33772
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 7:50 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Akron honors Dr. Bob by re-naming part of Olive
Street

Dr. Bob's Way coming to Akron
Portion of Olive St. will be designated for AA co-founder

By Stephanie Warsmith

Beacon Journal staff writer

Published on Tuesday, May 18, 2010

Each year, thousands travel to Akron to recognize Dr. Bob Smith for
co-founding Alcoholics Anonymous.
This year, Akron will thank Dr. Bob in a special way - by naming part of a
street after him.
Akron City Council on Monday voted to designate the section of Olive Street
from North Main Street to North Howard Street
''Dr. Bob's Way.'' This section of Olive is on the north end of St. Thomas
Hospital, which featured the first hospital specialty
unit to treat alcoholism as a medical condition. The street designation will
help celebrate the 75th anniversary of AA

starting in Akron on June 10.
''I think it's a good piece of legislation and a good way to honor Dr.
Bob,'' said Councilman Jeff Fusco. Summit County
Councilwoman Ilene Shapiro urged Please see Dr. Bob, council members to
redesignate the street and create a historical
marker. ''I think it's a lovely tribute to his memory,'' she said.

The city didn't want to rename Olive because of the inconvenience this would
cause to St. Thomas staff who have
documents printed with the current street name, said Deputy Mayor Dave
Lieberth. Signs with the new designation will be
added on Olive at Main, Howard and Schiller Avenue after a ceremony June 14
at St. Thomas.

Stephanie Warsmith can be reached at 330-996-3705 or
swarsmith@thebeaconjournal.com .

Or go the the site directly
http://www.ohio.com/news/94046929.html
| 6538|6538|2010-05-24 13:01:40|Cindy Miller|Back issues of Markings and Box 459|
Every issue of "Markings" is on-line on the AA
Website, and I believe, so are the last 10 years
of Box 459....

Good Luck!

-cindy miller

[This is with reference to a question which
Charlies Bishop, Jr., asked about a particular
issue of Box 459.]
| 6539|6539|2010-05-24 14:04:23|Shakey1aa@aol.com|Re: Searching for Letter to Alcoholic Foundation by Bill Mc...|
The letter sounds like it may have been written to Margaret(Bobbie ; aka
lambie pie) Berger. If so, It may be on file at GSO Archives in NY city. You
can go there to see it or call GSO Archives and perhaps they could read you
or send you a copy of the letter. There policy won't allow it to be
photocopied
Yours'
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila PA USA
| 6540|6515|2010-05-24 19:12:02|Roy Levin|Re: Why was Fitz's alcoholic problem so complex?|
From Roy Levin and Darice

- - - -

From: Roy Levin <royslev@yahoo.com> (royslev at yahoo.com)

Silkworth, a neurologist rather than a psychiatrist, uses terms that are
somewhat vague, and often not in the sense we use them today, e.g.
"psychopaths....they are always going on the wagon for keeps..." That's not
the ordinary sense a modern psychiatrist uses when he used the word psychopath.

By "problem so complex" he could mean simply a very depressed alcoholic. Fitz
M. was no different than any of a dozen early low bottom pioneers "desperate
cases" "beyond human aid."

Don't get too attached to Silkworth's descriptions,
he was a pioneer and a medical benefactor, but the experience we now have in
describing the alcoholics based on 75 years of experience is actually more
sophisticated. However, his early description of the "allergy" the phenomena
of craving and his early encouragement of Bill W. and "the altruistic movement
growing up among them" makes him immortal in the hearts and minds of AAs, and
will keep his section in the Big Book forever.

- - - -

From: "Jordan F" <daricedavis@yahoo.com>
(daricedavis at yahoo.com)

I am grateful for this question. I have some thoughts about potential features
involved in Fitz's alcoholic problem being so complex. However, I cannot know
of another's essential struggle. My experience, strength and hope gives me a
sense of three areas in the background material from Glenn C. which could have
been a barrier to the spiritual awakening necessary for depth recovery.

[See original message no. 6515
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6515
from <martinholmes76@ymail.com> martinholmes76 at ymail.com]

Such issues certainly have shortstopped my recovery
journey when present. Perhaps they did likewise to Fitz's.

The first barrier was this member made his own diagnosis. Yes, we do identify
ourselves each of us as alcoholic, but we are way too close to see ourselves
objectively. This is why A.A. is based on a "buddy system" of one alcoholic
talking with another alcoholic. My arrogance and egotism, represented by
acting like the "doctor" in my own case, have stood in the way of my
surrendering to God, and then talking with others like me who are alcoholic and
listening to their view points. This was a major threat to my staying H.O.W. --
Honest, Open, and Willing.

This is a "we" program ... we help each other, we work together, we are of
service to others. Each of us don't go off in our little corners and figure out
our own stuff by ourselves. We seek out each other and do outreach to get
others input. I don't ever have to go through all the circumstances that
brought me to A.A. alone ever again.

The second barrier was this member marked his case hopeless. It's never helpful
for me recovery when I put on my "God suit" and take over a pseudo-omnipotent
position like this one. That's God's job and r�le in life; not mine. I can't
be doing my job with my life to the best of my ability when I'm seeking to take
on God's part in this thing. God does not need my help; I need his help. God,
as I understand God, needs me to do my part: To seek God's guidance as to God's
will and the power to carry that will out in all my affairs.

The third barrier occurred when the individual hid himself away in the barn.
When I isolate or withdraw from others I generally am seeking to hide my
behavior from exposure and scrutiny because I know I'm on an ineffective path.
I am in flight from reality when I am pushing people away who can otherwise
prompt and inspire me to stay in the solution regarding my life's challenges by
what they say about their journeys in recovery. I'm pushing away help while
simultaneously acting based on self-will run riot.

And, if those three features were not trouble enough for me as I trudge on my
path to recovery, this member described themselves as the child of a minister.
I have heard numerous ministers in A.A. describe how their professional
affiliation as a minister had been twisted in their minds by their drinking
and/or using careers to support their disease prior to commencing a program of
recovery.

Although I am not a minister's kid, I am a doctor's kid, and I can report that
my mind was twisted with the extremes of entitlement and the self-serving values
of money, property, and prestige I picked out of my affluent upbringing. They
filled some of the empty spaces inside me until I could learn new tools hear,
but they also stood in the way of my being teachable, too. So, I get a special
chuckle when I hear A.A. speakers from similar circumstances describe their
particular twist on this same theme.

That's my contribution to the topic.

Warm regards,

Darice
| 6541|6541|2010-05-24 20:27:30|Shakey1aa@aol.com|14th National Archives Workshop: Macon, Georgia, Sept. 23-26|
14th Annual NAW

National Archives Workshop
Thursday September 23 - Sunday September 26, 2010

Learn how to research and write the AA story from:


MEL B.

Author of Pass It On, Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored
Bill W., New Wine, My Search for Bill W., Walk
in Dry Places, The 7 Key Principles of Successful
Recovery


BILL B.

Author of My Name is Bill W., When Love Is Not
Enough: the Lois Wilson Story, 1000 Years of
Sobriety, Sought Through Prayer and Meditation,
50 Quiet Miracles


CONFERENCE FLIER:

http://aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/

_________________________________________

YIS
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA
| 6542|6515|2010-05-25 13:18:02|shakey|Re: Why was Fitz's alcoholic problem so complex?|
Where in the literature does it i.d. "fitz" as the man the doctor was talking about ? Fitz got drunk in a barn and went home the next morning(read his story) and the man Dr S talks about was rescued by a searching party at a barn.It has similarities yet enough difference to make me ask for documentation. Where in our literature is "Fitz" i.d'd as that man?
Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA USA
| 6543|6516|2010-05-25 13:50:33|CBBB164@AOL.COM|Re: The AA version of moral psychology|
From Cliff Bishop and Roy Levin

- - - -

From: "Cliff Bishop" CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM)

It seems to me Dr. Silkworth provided his own definition of "Moral
Psychology" in offering his opinion. In the same paragraph where that term is
used, he referred to the "powers of good that lie outside our synthetic
knowledge."

Two paragraphs later, he states, "They believe in themselves, and still
more in the Power which pulls chronic alcoholics back from the gates of
death." This is what our Program of Recovery is about. Plugging into that
Power; our Higher Power

Makes sense to me.

In God's love and service,

Cliff Bishop
214-350-1190
http://www.ppgaadallas.org/

- - - -

From: Roy Levin <royslev@yahoo.com> (royslev at yahoo.com)

My take on it was that he was using a euphemism for what we call in AA today
the "spiritual" program, or what Silkworth must have considered a "religious"
approach. Such approaches were beyond "the synthetic knowledge" BB pg xxv of
"modern" (1930s) scientists like medical doctors. In other words, occasionally
a drunk sobered up through the Salvation Army or Oxford Group whereas the docs
couldn't reach them. The one line in the Big Book which I believe is a
complete exageration (for which I forgive WD Silkworth) is the line on page
xxvii (4th ed.) :" Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric
effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression
upon the problem as a while.. Many types do not respond to the ordinary
psychological approach."

Poor Doc Silkworth, he had to give some credit to his profession. But even
today I doubt if there is an considerable aggregate of recoveries to alcoholism
with just head shrinking. Every AA knows that a good psychiatrist, the minute
he suspects a patient to be an alkie, will insist he go to AA meetings or refuse
to treat the man further.

Remember Silkworth withheld his name from the first edition/first printing,
because he thought the other docs might consdier him a crackpot for allowing
Bill W. to come into Town's Hospital and talk God to the drunks. But to his
credit as a sincere healer rather than an "M-Diety" he cared for what got his
patients well, rather than who came up with the therapy. Bill's "altruistic
movement" worked and the croakers' cures didn't, so he encouraged the AAs and
let his name be used in future printings.

In short, "moral psychology" were the words Silkworth used because he didn't
want to come right out and say "the only thing that seems to help these drunks
is some 'Good Ol' Time Religion." But he knew that was the only thing that
worked, and he could see that Bill and his boys could package it and pitch it to
their fellow alkies better than any professional preachers.
| 6544|6514|2010-05-25 14:02:00|LES COLE|Re: Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor|
Hi: In 2007 while I was doing research in Bennington, VT I tried to find a court record concerning Ebby's day in court, but there are no records for the Magistrate Court back to 1934. The only information we have relates to Rowland Hazzard, Sebra Graves and Shep Cornell interceding with the magistrate, Collins Graves, to have Ebby released to their custody instead of sentencing Ebby to a mental hospital as a "public nuisance". Those three were members of a local Oxford Group and were drinking buddies (at least Sebra and Rowland were, although Shep's inclinations are not clear). They persuaded Ebby to follow OG principles so his drinking could be controlled. The judge apparently did not give Ebby such a sentence...just a release to custody. Sebra was well known in the community, as well as being the son of the magistrate, so it would appear that all were satisfied to handle the matter that way. Of course Ebby was so convinced that the OG program was great that he also "carried the message" to Bill Wilson shorty thereafter.

- - - -

Much has been written about the OG influence upon Bill, but I discuss that from a different point of view in my forthcoming book about the "Role of Vermont in AA history".

- - - -

Another bit of minutia... I interviewed Van Graves during that trip. He was Sebra's brother, and DID have the title of "Judge", and he made a very specific point to me that his father, Collins, was NOT a "Judge"... he was "head of a family agency". A little family rivalry there, I guess.

Les Cole

Colorado Springs, CO
________________________________________

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: ckeith@moment.net
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 17:53:57 -0500
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor

As I recall, it was the latter part of 1934 when
a judge in effect sentenced one Ebby T. to attend
Oxford group meetings.

That's the first "court ordered" person I've heard
about.
| 6545|6534|2010-05-25 15:20:14|Glenn Chesnut|Re: AAHistoryLovers get-together in San Antonio|
The original message was: 6534
From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)
Date: Wed May 19, 2010 at 11:19 am

For the History Lovers going to San Antonio for
the A.A. International Convention, July 1-4, 2010.
Would it be possible to somehow take a poll and
pick a date, time and location to gather together
and see what we look like up close and personal?

- - - -

The follow-up message was: 6535
From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Date: Sun May 23, 2010 at 10:24 pm

Glenn said, "I think Arthur has a great idea. I plan to spend a lot of my time in the A.A. ONLINE HOSPITALITY SUITE which the Advance Program says will be located in the Grand Hyatt Hotel (the main convention hotel) in Crockett Suite A/B."

See the ADVANCE PROGRAM at:
http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/2010IC_AdvanceProgram.pdf

The AA Online hospitality room will be open on Thursday through Saturday and would be the ideal place for members of the AAHistoryLovers to meet, according to the New York GSO. And it makes good sense to me too -- that's where all the AA online groups are going to be hanging out for at least part of the time.

I believe that it would be grossly unfair (this year) to schedule any AAHL get-together on Thursday, since we have given no advance notice, and everyone will already have their travel plans set up. No official convention events start until the party and dance at 7 p.m. on Thursday evening, which means that a lot of people will not be arriving until Thursday afternoon or evening.

Charles Grotts (see next message) also points out a possible conflict at 3:30 p.m. on Friday. But we need to remember that there are so many excellent things on the program, that it may not be possible to avoid all conflicts.

MY SUGGESTIONS:

Since no one has sent in any alternate suggestions for a meeting time on Friday or Saturday, my suggestion therefore is that we schedule two get-togethers in the AA Online Hospitality Suite in the Grand Hyatt Hotel. That way, if someone has to miss one of them because of a conflict, the other get-together will still provide opportunity to meet folks. If we wanted to, we could even designate one of these as the "primary get-together."

1:00 to 3:00 p.m. Friday afternoon

AND

3:00 to 5:00 p.m. Saturday afternoon

Perhaps at the next International we could start earlier -- at least ten months in advance at a minimum -- and schedule an AAHistoryLovers get-together to be held a day or two before the convention officially began.

______________________________

OTHER PEOPLE RESPONDED TO ARTHUR'S AND GLENN'S MESSAGES AS FOLLOWS:

From: Charles Grotts <chuckg052284@yahoo.com> (chuckg052284 at yahoo.com)

Also there's a workshop on Friday, July 2 at 3:30 p.m.: "AA in Cyberspace: Carrying the Message."

- - - -

From: paula <tgirl21791@yahoo.com> (tgirl21791 at yahoo.com)

i'll be there!!

keep the group posted and i can't wait to meet you f2f!

paula
area 93
southern california

- - - -

From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)

That sounds good to me

Bev

- - - -

From: "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@cox.net> (ineedpage63 at cox.net)

I am VERY excited about this idea and meeting all of you
"heavy hitters." Please make sure that this gets posted
on AAHL so all can attend. Thanks!

In Service with Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

- - - -

From: "gildell" <gildell@mac.com> (gildell at mac.com)

Great idea Arthur! (From one who has seldom posted, but who reads everything!)
I will arrive Wed. and can be flexible about times. I would love to meet up
with anyone who is there.

Michael G.
(former ICYPAA Archives Ch.)

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)
Cc: jim.myers56@yahoo.com, the_archivist@excite.com, jaredlobdell@aol.com

I have been planning to meet with 20 or so AAHL members in San Antonio. It will be on Wednesday June 30 or Thursday July 1. This will be before the International Convention actually begins (the convention starts with the party and dance at 7 p.m. that Thursday evening). It will be a location where we can sit down and meet for a couple hours.

I have a location and time but I was asked not to announce it until a couple days (or maybe a week) before the event. I won't give the info out till then so that it won't jeopardize someone's job.
| 6546|6538|2010-05-25 16:30:13|M.J. Johnson|Re: Back issues of Markings and Box 459|
Point to note: Back issues of "Markings" on aa.org only go back to 1997,
which is volume 17 of that publication. Only volume 24 (2004) through
present are sequentially represented.

I'd be interested in getting electronic copies of any other Markings back
issues not hosted on aa.org that folks may be able to point me to.

Much obliged,

- M.J.

- - - -

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Every issue of "Markings" is on-line on the AA
> Website, and I believe, so are the last 10 years
> of Box 459....
>
| 6547|6518|2010-05-25 17:36:05|Sober186@aol.com|Re: Historical definition of substantial unanimity|
From Sober186 (Jim in Central Ohio) and Roy Levin

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

I apologize, I made a mistake. When I searched "AA substantial majority", I did not notice that I had been directed to e-AA.org, a site for electronic-AA groups. The quote I forwarded is in the e-AA 'Groups' booklet. It has no validity for AA as a whole.

The quote from Bill W. was accurate as printed in the October 1946 issue of The Grapevine.

Jim in Central Ohio

- - - -

Original question from: Lonnie V. <lvanderslice@gmail.com>
(lvanderslice at gmail.com)

Our group is struggling with an issue that has split the group at a 50/50 vote,
and the question has been posed as to how we will define "substantial
unanimity."

- - - -

From: Roy Levin <royslev@yahoo.com> (royslev at yahoo.com)

One thing is for sure, a 50/50 vote is NOT substantial unanimity. Such a
motion which might be devisive is usally postponed or tabled. A group
conscience by the way, is not exactly the final vote, but the sounding of all
opinions, making sure the "minority opinion" is heard. The vote is the final
result of sounding out the group conscience. In an important vote to the format
or future of a group often a long time is taken to make sure most opinions are
heard from almost all members. On trivial issues often we limit debate to
"three pros" "three cons" etc. each one has one minute in the interest of saving
time.
| 6548|6548|2010-05-25 17:54:06|gbaa487|Bill W. quote on purpose of an AA meeting|
I found the following quote attributed to Bill W.
Where can it be found?

"Sobriety, freedom from alcohol through the teaching
and practicing of the 12 Steps, is the sole purpose
of an AA group."
| 6549|6548|2010-05-25 20:58:31|James Bliss|Re: Bill W. quote on purpose of an AA meeting|
With 1 minute of additional research, IT is attributed to Bill W. in a
Grapevine article in 1958. I do not know which Grapevine issue.

Jim

On 5/23/2010 6:11 PM, gbaa487 wrote:
>
> I found the following quote attributed to Bill W.
> Where can it be found?
>
> "Sobriety, freedom from alcohol through the teaching
> and practicing of the 12 Steps, is the sole purpose
> of an AA group."
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 6550|6548|2010-05-25 20:59:50|James Bliss|Re: Bill W. quote on purpose of an AA meeting|
I am not sure about this quote being attributed to Bill W., but it is
contained in the pamphlet 'Problems Other Than Alcohol' on the 4th page,
including the front cover when counting. This pamphlet can be found at:
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-35_ProOtherThanAlcohol1.pdf

Jim

On 5/23/2010 6:11 PM, gbaa487 wrote:
> freedom from alcohol through the teaching
> and practicing of the 12 Steps
| 6551|6551|2010-05-26 12:28:34|martinholmes76@ymail.com|Was Silkworth a religious man?|
Was Dr. Silkworth a religious man?


--from the Barking Big Book Study Saturday night
| 6552|6552|2010-05-26 12:29:40|martinholmes76@ymail.com|Belladonna treatment and hydrotherapy|
In Bill's story he mentions the Belladonna
treatment and Hydrotherapy.

What are these treatments?
| 6553|6536|2010-05-26 12:40:15|SONJA THOMASON|Re: Searching for Letter to Alcoholic Foundation by Bill McI., 1946|
Searching for Letter to Alcoholic Foundation by Bill McI., 1946

Hi, all,

I wrote in a little while ago asking about a letter written back in 1946 from
the Toronto Secretary to Bobbie in New York. I would like to find a reliable
copy of the letter online - I shouldn't have used the word "original"!! We're
running a copy of it in our newsletter and there are a couple of things in it
I'd like to check in it. Here's the letter below. But, I'd like to see it
from an online source (I think there are a couple of mistakes in this version
below which I don't believe would be on the "original"). That was all I meant
when I used that word "original". Can anyone help me find this online. I
don't really know where to start. Many thanks.

Toronto
A.A.
Central Group
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
1170 Yonge St.
March 20, 1946
Phone MI-9951

Mrs. Margaret B.
National Headquarters
Alcoholics Anonymous
New York, NY

Dear Bobbie:

I realize that I am reporting in rather late but A.A. has been moving very
rapidly here since the first of the year and moving in the right direction. We
started off with our New Year's party which was a grand success and quite
different from a year previous when four of us sat in a morgue like atmosphere
drinking ginger ale and wondering if it was worth it. This year we had well over
100 happy, laughing sober people. Truly a tribute to the way A.A. works.

A second group had formed before Christmas and their method of leaving had left
rather a bitter taste. I am very glad to be able to say that most of that
bitterness and resentment has gone and die two groups are constantly
movingcloser together. Later we are going to have an East End Group and this,
I am sure, will have the hearty support of both groups and might be the weld
needed to join all Toronto groups in the proper A.A. spirit. As you already
know a small but solid group has started in Hamilton . A week ago, we chartered
a bus and about 22 went over for their meeting. There was a member from Dundas ,
Ontario and one from Simcoe, a good indication of how A.A. is getting into even
the towns and villages around us. As you can see, we also modernized our
stationery. Another reason for the delay is I wanted to use the new letter (or
is that just another alibi). Also enclosed find our new pamphlet and enclosure
we are using for mailing and the
members to carry in their pockets. We have a number of other groups send us
their pamphlets on A.A. and are trying to have 6 or so different kinds on hand
to keep the new man interested and give him something to carry with him Would
appreciate it greatly if you could send us a list of books which we could use as
suggested reading. At present "Remember September" and the "Glass
Crutch" is going the rounds but would like to get something with more meat in
it. As the member progresses he is reaching for something more than sobriety.
To meet this need, we would like to stock our library with those that have
proven help/al. This Sunday, March 24th we are holding our 3rd Anniversary
Meeting at the Knights of Columbus Hall from 3 p.m.until midnight. A buffet
supper from 5-6 and the meeting to start at 7 p.m.with Clarence Snyder of
Cleveland, Ohioas guest speaker. I am enclosing a clipping of our advertisement.
We had this in both evening papers
today and in the morning paper tomorrow the 21st. This get to-gether should
do a lot to unify the various groups and comes at a very opportune time as we
are trying to obtain some hospitalized plan for alcoholics. There has been a
great deal of pressure put on the Provincial Government by the Temperance Groups
(note clippings also our Dr. Little's name in connection with their cause).
This publicity and show of strength should help our appeal for a better deal for
the alcoholic.
Could your office forward us any State legislation concerning methods of
hospitalizing alcoholics, such as Alabama and Connecticut ? Any information or
definite form of procedure in use would help us greatly. Medicine is still not
too interested in us here in Canada .
However; that too will come. We have a great many doctors who are sympathetic
toward our work and several who are going all out for us. I am enclosing
various clippings pertaining to A.A. since the first of the year. We haven't
selected a reporter for the Grapevine but will in the near future. I might say
our Women's Group under Mrs. P. is really doing a fine job. They run their own
show but have the willing help of both men's groups if they need it. This is
all the news for the present. To date we have received n letter regarding our
donation to the National Fund. Do we get that later? I wondered if it had been
overlooked ill die turmoil caused by renovating the club rooms.

With very best regards to yourself and Bill and all New York AA from Toronto.
Sincerely,

Bill McI (Secretary)
| 6554|6531|2010-05-26 12:52:16|Cindy Miller|Re: Akron honors Dr. Bob by re-naming part of Olive Street|
From Cindy Miller, CloydG, Bob and Judy Schultz, and Laurie Andrews

- - - -

Message #6537 from "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)
said:

"I know this is being done with the best of intentions but if Dr Bob made
anything clear prior to his death it was that he did not want this kind of
recognition. It seems that more and more, the respect for AA's anonymity
Traditions are either dissolving or being trivialized (always with the best of
intentions of course)."

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net> (cm53 at earthlink.net)

Here, here!

cindy miller

- - - -

From: "CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net> (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

Isn't it a bit awkward to be a celebrity in an anonymous program? I mean, I go
to a lot of meetings inside of and outside of my home town. I hear people
introduce themselves by first and last names. A lot say that we're only
anonymous outside of AA, but are we? The traditions do not mention that so I
guess my question is Author, have I missed something?

- - - -

From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net)

In my opinion, this is out of respect and reverence and posthumously. I am not
for it or against it but to me, its more wothwhile than a "movie."

Bob and Judy Schultz
101A Melbourne Park Circle
Charlottesville, Virginia 22901-3924
434-295-7257

- - - -

From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

PS: And of course Bill W always declined honours for himself too.
| 6555|6548|2010-05-26 13:29:29|Tom Hickcox|Re: Bill W. quote on purpose of an AA meeting|
From M.J. Johnson, Tom Hickcox, Laurence Holbrook, Rotax Steve, Bob Stonebraker, Jay Lawyer, Lester Gother, Byron Bateman, Jason Clemons, Jim Myers, Charles Knapp, and glhughes227

- - - -

Original message #6548 from <gbaa487@yahoo.com> (gbaa487 at yahoo.com)
said:

> I found the following quote attributed to Bill W.
> Where can it be found?
>
> "Sobriety, freedom from alcohol through the teaching
> and practicing of the 12 Steps, is the sole purpose
> of an AA group."

- - - -

From: "M.J. Johnson" <threeeyedtoad@gmail.com> (threeeyedtoad at gmail.com)

This seems to be inaccurate. Searching the Grapevine Digital Archive
just for the phrase "teaching and practicing" among all issues from the
1950s yields no results. Searching for the phrase "teaching and practicing
of the 12 Steps" (and "Twelve Steps") does not appear anywhere in the
Grapevine archives.

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

As Bill Sees It, p. 79, quoted from a letter dated 1966.

As given, the quote is slightly different, "This is why sobriety -
freedom from alcohol - through the teaching and practice of
A.A.'s 12 Steps, is the sole purpose of the group."

Hyphens rather than commas, and "practice" rather than
"practicing" make it not an exact quote.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From: "Laurence Holbrook" <email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

Also from: From: "Rotax Steve" <gallery5@mindspring.com> (gallery5 at mindspring.com)

As Bill Sees It [The A.A. Way of Life], Article 79 "Whose Responsibility."
The reference listed is "letter 1966."

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@comcast.net> (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

also from "Jay Lawyer" <ejlawyer@midtel.net> (ejlawyer at midtel.net)

and "lester gother" <lgother@optonline.net> (lgother at optonline.net)

Bill Wilson wrote this sentence in a small pamphlet titled, "Problems Other
Than Alcohol, (excerpts)," in 1958. The catalogue number is F-8. GSO
will send 50 of these free with an order, if requested.

Bob S.

- - - -

From: "Byron Bateman" <byronbateman@hotmail.com> (byronbateman at hotmail.com)

At the start of the narrative, underneath the inside title, it says it is "By
Bill." Also, the small excerpt from that pamphlet credits Bill on the front
page. The copyright is February 1958.

- - - -

From: Jason Clemons <jasonrclemons@gmail.com> (jasonrclemons at gmail.com)

*Problems Other Than Alcohol:
What Can Be Done About Them?*
by Bill W. -- A.A. Grapevine, February, 1958

One way to find the article is
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-problemsother.html

- - - -

From: Jim Myers <jim.myers56@yahoo.com> (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com)

Doing a quick search on silkworth.net, I was able to find the 1958 Grapevine
article written by Bill Wilson titled, "Problems Other Than Alcohol: What Can Be
Done About Them?"

Here is the article in pdf format:
http://www.silkworth.net/pdfBillW/Problems-Other-Than-Alcohol-Feb-1958.pdf

Look to the 4th column, 2nd paragraph.

Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com)

"Sobriety -- freedom from alcohol -- through the teaching and practice of the
Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an A.A. group," Bill wrote this in the
February 1958 issue of the A.A. Grapevine.

The AA Grapevine Digital Archives can find just about any quote of Bill W.

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: glhughes227@yahoo.com (glhughes227 at yahoo.com)

Also from: From: "planternva2000" <planternva2000@yahoo.com> (planternva2000 at yahoo.com)

It in Language of the Heart, p. 223, in the article Problems Other Than Alcohol
from Grapevine, February 1958. That article has been printed in pamphlet form as
well with the same title.

It's part of the meeting format of the Three Legacies group in New Orleans.
| 6556|6548|2010-05-26 13:33:17|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Bill W. quote on purpose of an AA meeting|
"An AA group, as such, cannot take on all the personal problems of its members, let alone those of nonalcoholics in the world around us. The AA group is not, for example, a mediator of domestic relations, nor does it furnish personal financial aid to anyone. Though a member may sometimes be helped in such matters by his friends in AA, the primary responsibility for the solutions of all his problems of living and growing rests squarely upon the individual himself. Should the AA group attempt this sort of help, its effectiveness and energies would be hopelessly dissipated. This is why sobriety - freedom from alcohol - through the teaching and practice of AA's 12 Steps, is the sole purpose of the group. If we don't stick to this cardinal principle, we shall almost certainly collapse. And if we collapse we cannot help anyone."

(Letter from Bill W dated 1966 and quoted in "As Bill Sees It", page 79)
| 6557|6548|2010-05-26 13:33:18|Tom Hickcox|Re: Bill W. quote on purpose of an AA meeting|
At 20:10 5/25/2010, James Bliss wrote:

With 1 minute of additional research, iT is
attributed to Bill W. in a Grapevine article in
1958. I do not know which Grapevine issue.

Jim

- - - -

Thanks, Jim. That would be the February 1958, Vol. 14, No. 9, issue
of the Grapevine, which you can find on their Digital Archive. The
article is titled "Problems other than Alcohol: What can be done
about them?" by Wilson. It is also in the pamphlet Jim referenced in
his earlier post.

This raises a of question in my mind. As Bill Sees It/The A.A. Way
of Life attributes it to a "Letter 1966". The pamphlet is
copyrighted 1958, so I wonder why it wasn't attributed to the
pamphlet rather than to a letter from almost a decade later? Maybe
to give us something to worry about.

The issues Wilson addresses in the GV article are as alive and well
today as they were fifty-two years ago.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
| 6558|6516|2010-05-26 19:36:31|jax760|Re: The AA version of moral psychology|
I posted part of this previously in Message #6493,
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6493

But I want to add some additional information
and, because of its importance, discuss it in
more detail.

Cliff and Roy's take appear correct. Silkworth wrote about "moral psychology" fully two years before the Big Book was published. He first mentions it in a March 1937 paper and then elaborates in an April 1937 paper. (excerpt below)

Reclamation of the Alcoholic
By William D. Silkworth, M.D., New York, N.Y.
Medical Record, April 21, 1937


MORAL PSYCHOLOGY

We believe that this decision is in the nature of an inspiration. The patient knows he has reached a lasting conclusion, and experiences a sense of great relief. These individuals, introverts for the most part, whose interests center entirely in themselves, once they have made their decision, frequently ask how they can help others.

Case III (Hospital No. 993). - A man of thirty-eight, who had been drinking heavily for five years, had lost all of his property and was practically disowned by his family, was brought to the hospital with a gastric hemorrhage. His general condition was typical of allergic alcoholism and apparently he was mentally beyond hope. Following through elimination and medical rehabilitation, he made a satisfactory physical return. He then took up moral psychology and, in two years' time has entirely recovered his lost fortune and has been elected to a prominent public position. On meeting this patient recently, we experienced a strange sensation; while we recognized the features, a different man seemed to be speaking, as if a self-confident stranger had stepped into this man's body.

Case IV (Hospital No. 1152). - A broker, who had earned as much as $25,000 a year, and had come, through alcohol, to a position where he was being supported by his wife, presented himself for treatment carrying with him two books on philosophy from which he hoped to get a new inspiration: His desire to discontinue alcohol was intense, and he certainly made every effort within his own capabilities do to so. Following the course of treatment in which the alcohol and toxic products were eliminated and his craving counteracted, he took up moral psychology. At first, he found it difficult to rehabilitate himself financially, as his old friends had no confidence in his future conduct. Later he was given an opportunity, and is now a director in a large corporation. He gives part of his income to help others in his former condition, and he has gathered about him a group of over fifty men, all free from