8960|8960|2013-01-01 09:01:08|Joanna|p. 80 Big Book - the man who was destroyed by ruinous slander|
All -

In our Big Book workshop tonite we were reading and discussing step 9. We were reading about the man who was ruined because an alcoholic stole his money, didn't give him a receipt and then slandered him. We were noticing that the alcoholic talked to his wife and business partner and then decided he needed to make amends by standing up in church - but we also noticed that nothing is said about what happened to the man who was harmed - did the drunk pay the man back? how was the man's reputation healed? Does anyone know the story of this man? I promised my workshop I would try to find out and bring the story back next week.

Thanks!

Joanna
Denver

__________________________________________

FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR

Joanna, here is all the information I was able to locate:

CHAPTER 6. INTO ACTION - p. 80
The story of the man who "accepted a sum of money from a ... business rival" was taken from Oxford Group literature, name unknown.

We'll check with the AAHistoryLovers group here, but the rest of this particular story may have gotten lost in the mists of time.
| 8961|8961|2013-01-01 09:03:30|John Lee|Re: Man gets DUI after driving on lawn of AA co-founder's home in Ve|
Bill Wilson never owned a house in Vermont. Sloppy reporting by Associated Press. Bill's purported "ownership" of the building was in the headline in most reports.

The house was owned by Bill's maternal grandparents, the Griffiths. Bill and his sister lived there when they were young. It wasn't called the Wilson House until the mid-1980s.
 
Reports from other news outlets indicate the unfortunate driver was overserved and was trying to find the parking lot and attend a meeting. Nothing like a wet one to perk up your meeting.

AP must have laid off its fact-checkers and cut back on training. AP reporters are supposed to compose breaking, barebones, ACCURATE news reports which are picked up by other news outlets. The subscribers fill in the AP sketches with detail and commentary. This is a good example of how we continue to get less service in a service economy.
 
John Lee
Pittsburgh
| 8962|8954|2013-01-01 09:03:58|Bryan S. Reid|Re: Bill W's Depression - getting refocused|
This thread has been interesting *BUT* ignores the historical context. What
we know as depression today and what it was conceived as in the mid-1940s
are light-years apart. One of my gravest concerns about out Fellowship and
our Program is that many people take Bill's experience and the Big Book as
the answers to depression. Nothing, and I mean nothing, could be further
from the truth. Period. Were it not so very dangerous, it would be mildly
amusing. I will not bore you with the details, but anyone so inclined can
research it and see what I'm talking about.

Freud introduced the beginnings of the modern concepts of depression,
calling it melancholia. He regarded it as a neurotic response to loss,
either real or perceived. His answer was psycho-analytic counseling to
identify and address the internal conflicts a person had that manifested as
melancholia.

In the 1930s-1940s, there was not a great deal of distinction between
chronic depression and schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses as well,
and many of the same treatments were used for all.

The treatments most commonly used for persistent depression in the
mid-1940s (otherwise unspecified, as the distinction between clinical and
environmental depression had not been arrived at yet) were, in no
particular order:

~ psycho-analytic counseling
~ electro-convulsive shock therapy (remember Senator Thomas Eagleton - he
received electroshock treatment 3 times for depression in the 1960s)
~ insulin-induced comas
~ drugs such as barbiturates and bromides (which primarily worked as
sedatives)
~ lobotomies (although these were on the decline, they were still used in
severe cases)

It wasn't until the 1950s that the concept of clinical depression came into
being with the discovery of MAO inhibitors, the first modern depression
medications. They continued in use for a long time (along with lithium and
other sedatives) until big breakthroughs in understanding depression and
modern treatments began in the 1970s-1980s.

My point in this is that:

1. We don't know and will never know whether Bill had clinical depression,
environmental depression or something else altogether. Psychiatry was still
pretty much in the Stone Age then (well, at least they'd stopped lengthy
water immersion as a treatment).

2. Tiebout's notes on Bill would reveal nothing to a layman, and probably
only a psychiatric historian could make any sort of inference from them.
His writings on the general subject probably wouldn't reveal much, if
anything, about Bill's case.

3. If we knew what sort of treatment Bill was receiving, there is little we
could infer from it as to what his problem was. Both the diagnosis of and
treatment of depression was all over the board in those days.

There are three kinds of depression most widely recognized today:

A. Environmental depression. Things or situations around us or involving us make us unhappy and sad. Ex: my boss sarcastically asked me if I could spell my name in the staff meeting this week, my wife told me that her mother was right and she was an idiot for marrying me, etc., etc., etc. Either professional counseling or using the Program works great for this. Drugs do not help except for a placebo effect.

B. Clinical depression. A chemical imbalance in the brain. This has to be
diagnosed by an M.D. psychiatrist based on at least 2-3 hours of interview
evaluation and a full blood chemistry workup before a diagnosis can be
made. Treatment involves finding an antidepressant that works (this can
take some time and experimenting - it is as much of an art as a science)
and counseling for at least several months early on. If things work well,
continue medication and periodic checkups as determined by the doctor.

C. Chronic clinical depression. See B. above. Incurable.

My qualifications here is that I have been under treatment for chronic
clinical depression for over 20 years, and have done a lot of studying to
better understand my condition.

Antidepressants are not "happy pills" for me. They have never made me
happy. What they do for me is allow me to get out of bed in the morning and
function as a human being (I have a problem with the word "normal" but you
could insert it there). They alter the chemical balance in my brain so I
can think clearly and don't spend hours or days on end lost in a fog of
pain, thinking that everything would be better for everyone if I weren't
here.

If you take one thing away from what I have written here, please let it be
to not diagnose depression in another person in the Program and to never
tell them how to treat it. I see far too much of this going on in the
program. Clinical depression can kill. Let a trained psychiatrist make the
diagnosis. If the persons come back and say the shrink said they have
environmental depression, grab them and a couple of old-timers and head for
the diner. Otherwise, please the the doctor do his or her job.

Best wishes for a happy, healthy and sober New Year.

Blessings be yours,

Bryan

____________________________________________________

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I think we need to get refocused a bit more on the central question that was originally asked.
>
> ARTHUR S. WROTE:
> Summer 1944, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH 6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)
>
> TOMMY H. THEN ASKED:
> Any idea what Dr. Tiebout's treatment would have involved? If he prescribed pills that would have outraged some A.A. members, what would the pills have been?
| 8963|8955|2013-01-01 09:04:29|Baileygc23@aol.com|Re: Psychoactive medications which Bill W. took|
In one of the early (prepublication) versions of the big book Bill W
mentioned being prescribed Chloral hydrate prior to his becoming sober.
| 8964|8964|2013-01-01 15:09:33|Glenn Chesnut|Virtual tours of Dr. Bob's home and Stepping Stones|
From: Al Welch <welch@a-1associates.com> (welch at a-1associates.com)

For people who have never had the privilege of visiting these two sites. Take a
look at the virtual tours of these two historically important AA places:

http://drbobshome.com/wp/dr-bobs-home/the-museum/photo-tour/

http://www.steppingstones.org/tours.html
| 8965|8672|2013-01-04 10:42:20|B|Re: Dr. Roy H McKay|
In the latest from the "prominent surgeon" whom Bill and Dr. Bob tried to help, it seems that when Dr. Bob and Bill were meeting at the Lodge House, that right up the street (4 or 5 houses away) was Dr. McKay's mansion. Build by the doctor in 1924, the neighbors had told the current owner that Mrs. McKay hanged herself in the house because she found out her husband was having an affair. As you may or may not know, she actually drank poison to facilitate her own death. The affair part is not known factually, but he did marry within two years to a beautician 23 years his junior, and himself died later that same year under mysterious circumstances.

The house is featured in a 1932 book regarding the history of Akron, as one of the 5 most prominent homes in the city. The current owner provided me with a current photo.

Still don't know where Dr. McKay is buried.

____________________________________________

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:
>
> More on our intrepid doctor. I have many documents from the Akron Beacon regarding the life and death of Dr. Roy H McKay, our almost #3. I would love to share them with those who want to see them. I am including here a letter to the editor dated Dec 5, 1936:
>
> Benefactor and Friend
> Editor Beacon Journal:
>
> The passing of Dr. Roy H. McKay is indeed a tragedy to hundreds of people in Akron who knew him as benefactor and friend.
>
> His hundreds of operations upon patients who could not pay were known only to the few, other than the patients themselves. He gave freely of his skill and knowledge which has been unheralded and unsung.
>
> A few "roses" given in life mean more than many wreaths in death - and too often the roses are withheld. Dr. McKay was an example of the "Man" in Kipling's "If."
>
> "If you can dream and not make dreams your master, If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim, If you can meet with triumph and disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same - If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken - And stoop and build them up with worn out tools.
> "If you can fill the unforgiving minute, With sixty seconds' worth of distance run, Yours is the earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man-my son."
>
> The tragedy is that the building was terminated before completion. Suffering from severe heart attacks which he knew might terminate fatally any minute, but which might go on for years, Dr. McKay gave only one intimation of his thoughts about his heart condition to his wife and son. When his wife started to her father's funeral in Pennsylvania, he said. "If anything happens to me - have me cremated."
>
> Dr. McKay had started to open an office in one of Miami's leading hotels - he was living in a beautifully furnished house - not a boarding house. - his son who was living with him, will continue in school in Florida - living on with Mrs. McKay. This information is given so that those who knew and have reason to remember this truly great man - may know a few facts of the case.
> Helen C. Spain
> 899 Lawton St.
>
> His death was the headline of the November 28, 1936 Beacon.
>
> Blessings,
> Brian
>
> - - - -
>
> "B" wrote:
> >
> > "Writes Notes, Drinks Poison", "Mrs. McKay, Ill, Takes Own Life".
> >
> > This is the headline and subheadline regarding the death/suicide of Dr. Roy Haymon McKay's first wife, Edna, as it appeared in the 1934 Akron Beacon. It is a fascinating article from an historical perspective. I have it available for anyone that wants to message me.
> >
> > e-mail address: (kochbrian at hotmail.com)
> >
> > It did not lead to Dr. Roy's gravesite however. She is buried / mausoleumed at East Akron Cemetery, he is not. His obit in a Miami-Dade County paper, which states that his remains were being returned to Akron for burial. So the hunt goes on for our "almost #3".
> >
> > The obit lists him as a "widely known surgeon," and he actually co-wrote a book in 1932 entitled "Let's Operate," which is an expose of the surgeon's profession. (Do I sense resentments at work possibly?)
> >
> > Thank you to all members here for their motivation and experience. I am enjoying the search for those that came before, even if they didn't stay.
> >
> > Brian
>
| 8966|8933|2013-01-04 10:56:42|dennya61188|Re: Bill W's Depression - Some AA History|
Did Bill Wilson suffer at least one additional bout of serious depression even after 1955?

On 12/20/2012 11:33, Arthur S wrote:
>
> Note: In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also mentions what he did in response to it.

Regarding the above comment from Arthur S:

As Bill Sees It, page 231 titled "Privileged to Communicate" states, "Bill added that he had no depression after 1955."

This references a 1954 letter in which Bill wrote, "I used to be ashamed of my condition so didn't talk about it. But nowadays I freely confess I am a depressive, and this has attracted other depressives to me. Working with them has helped a great deal."

So which was true? No depression after 1955? Or was the January 1958 Grapevine article correct in saying that he had another bad episode of depression at one point after 1955?

Can anyone tell me how can I get a copy of that 1958 Grapevine article? Thank you.
| 8967|8958|2013-01-04 13:46:02|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Poverello Medal|
From Charlie Bishop, Bill McIntire, and john wikelius

- - - -

From: Charles Bishop <Bishopbk@comcast.net>
(Bishopbk at comcast.net)

Poverello Medal = The medal was "awarded by The College of Steubenville (now Franciscan University) to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous in public Recognition of the tremendous contribution the Fellowship has made to Humanity, thereby expressing in our age the Christ-like Charity which filled the life Saint Francis of Assisi. Presented at the Founders' Day Dinner, in the City of Steubenville, Ohio, December 7, 1949."

The medal was accepted by Sr. Ignatia, Dr. Bob's partner, on behalf of A.A.

8.5" x10.5" copies of the certificate (smaller than the original) were mailed out to all A.A. groups at the time.

Originally the College wanted to give it first to Bill W. but, if my memory serves at all, Bill declined (on anonymity grounds), and Dr. Bob was too sick to appear publicly.

The college's Founders Associates intended to honor Sr. Ignatia but she balked.

So Fr. Daniel Egan, T.O.R., of the university wrote her Superior General of the Sisters of Charity of St. Augustine, and with the approval of the Catholic Bishop of Steubenville, Ohio, urged Sr. Ignatia to attend and accept the medal.

The medal itself was made of steel (rather than gold or silver), a non-precious metal symbolic of the poverty St. Francis dearly-loved and representative of the steelworkers industry in the Steubenville-Ohio Valley area. The medal honors St. Francis of Assisi, Patron of the University.

I had an original framed certificate which is now at Brown University's Kirk Collection, I think (boy, ain't getting old fun).

The award was the FIRST Poverello Award (medal) given by the university.

All this from my "Poverello Medal" folder and two pages of typed notes for a talk I gave at an A.A. meeting at the university Oct. 18, 2005.

I had previously interviewed the university president about the history of the award, and (again, my memory fails) can't remember if it was Fr. Egan or another priest/president there.

Servus, Charlie B.

- - - -

From: BILL MCINTIRE (maxbott at yahoo.com)

The Poverello Medal is named after St. Francis of Assisi, who was called Il Poverello ("the little poor man"). It commemorates those who show strength of character and Christian charity in their love for and service to the poor.

Past recipients include Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

See
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/rick_and_karen_santorum_to_receive_2010_poverello_medal/

Bill M
Arago, OR

- - - -

From: john wikelius
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

Sister Ignatia accepted in the name of AA but citation reads to AA.
| 8968|8921|2013-01-04 13:49:41|B|Re: Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick|
I thought this would be of interest to my fellow history buffs: The book itself is fascinating and gives me a whole new perspective on our friend Dr. Fosdick. Taken from that book on pages 286-287 is the following (my apologies for the longwinded post, but wanted to include all of it):

"Some good causes with which I have been allied have fortunately been all success without contention-Alcoholics Anonymous, or example. I teamed up with that movement in its early days, and count my acquaintance with Bill W., whose experience helped to launch this remarkable society, a very rewarding association. We ministers are not uncommonly thought of as needlessly prudish and puritanical about the use of alcoholic beverages, but I challenge anyone to be a parish pastor very long without hating the prevalent misuse of liquor with implacable indignation. We have the devastating results of alcoholism dumped in our laps day after day-individuals and families ruined by drink, men and women enslaved by a habit they are powerless to break, children humiliated, shamed and irretrievably harmed by drunken parents. In dealing with this problem I often found myself utterly frustrated. What could I do? To be sure we had our victories. Once, a young journalist, ruined by drink, bought a bottle of poison, and on a Sunday morning headed for Washington Square, where he planned to commit suicide. Passing the First Presbyterian Church, where I was then preaching, and seeing the crowds waiting to get in, his journalistic curiosity was aroused. Why on earth, he wondered, were so many people going to church? So he postponed his suicide long enough to join the congregation and listen to the service. Afterward he poured the poison down a manhole, and the next day he came to see me. He won his battle, but alas! that young man was only one victory among many defeats.
Since then Alcoholics Anonymous has grown to its present astonishing strength, and it is a godsend to us ministers. How can we understand an alcoholic-his compulsive desire for liquor, the hopeless captivity against which he futilely contends, one determined decision after another to stop drinking ending in collapse? When we talk to an alcoholic, he knows that never having been in his place we cannot understand his plight. But when an ex-alcoholic, who has been in the depths himself and has taken the Twelve Steps to freedom, talks to an alcoholic, amazing results can follow and have followed in countless thousands of lives.
Month after month I read Grapevine, A.A.'s official journal-about the most moving collection of testimonies to the possibility of personal transformation of which I know. Moreover, these testimonies bear witness to religion's reality, for Alcoholics Anonymous is deeply religious. That Eleventh Step is an essential factor in its program: "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understand Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." The meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous are the only place, so far as I know where Roman Catholics, Jews, all kinds of Protestants and even agnostics get together harmoniously on a religious basis. They do not talk theology. Many of them would say that they know nothing about it. What they do know is that in their utter helplessness they were introduced to a Power, greater than themselves, in contact with whom they found a strong resource which made possible victory that had seemed incredible. I have listened to many learned arguments about God, but for honest –to-goodness experiential evidence of God, His power personally appropriated, and His reality indubitably assured, give me a good meeting of A.A!"

Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick as found in "The Living Of These Days", autobiography, written in 1956, Harper Publishing.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, brian koch wrote:
>
> The Living of these Days: An Autobiography
>
> Autobiography of Dr. Fosdick, I found a copy on Amazon (not a commercial for Amazon) for $6.50 plus shipping.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Brian
>
> - - - -
>
> From: kochbrian@...
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012
> Subject: Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick
>
> Friends,
>
> Gained much insight into Dr. Fosdick when I found his obituary in The New York Times over the weekend, dated 6 October 1969. His religious underpinnings, his interconnections with John D Rockefeller Jr., Reinhold Niebuhr -- and also William Jennings Bryan (Fosdick and Bryan were adversaries to say the least).
>
> His suffering from a nervous breakdown in 1901. He described his "horrid experience" as "one of the most important factors in my preparation for the ministry". (Sounds like his worst experience being used for the good of others?) Further, "Many times in those later years I have faced people who started to tell me the inner hell of their neurotic agony -- the waves of melancholia, the obsessive anxieties, the desire for suicide, and all the rest -- and I have stopped them saying 'Don't you tell me, let me tell you how you feel.' One typical man with wide eyes, exclaimed when I was through: 'My God,! How did you know that?'"
>
> His accepting the job of serving Park Avenue Baptist Church (later to become The Riverside Church) when approached by John D. Rockefeller Junior went like this:
>
> "Dr. Fosdicks first response was negative. I do not want to be known as the pastor of the richest man in the country. To which Rockefeller replied I like your frankness, but do you think that more people will criticize you on account of my wealth than will criticize me on account of your theology?"
>
> His belief in basic Christianity is spelled out in much detail. The fact that his brother Raymond eventually became the president of the Rockefeller Foundation.
>
> I could go on but I will not attempt to retype all the highlights of this lengthy and well written obituary. I have a copy which is available to anyone attempting to glean information about one of our early proponents. AA is even mentioned ever so briefly in the obit
>
> "Dr. Fosdick's topics (of interest) included all the major social issues of the day. He was an early supporter of Margaret Sanger's birth-control movement, and was both a backer of Alcoholics Anonymous and a vigorous opponent of Prohibition."
>
> "...an apostle of theological liberalism who had already become a pivotal figure in American Protestant history."
>
> Blessings,
>
> Brian
>
> His burial place is Ferncliff Cemetery and Mauloleum, 280 Secor Road, Hartsdale NY 10530. Plot: St. James, Plot 486, grave 2 (thanks to find-a-grave for making this easy to find). Located 20 miles from Stepping Stones in Katonah NY.
>
| 8969|8933|2013-01-04 13:51:59|Tom Hickcox|Re: Bill W's Depression - Some AA History|
Go to the A.A. Grapevine Digital Archive online. It has all the old GVs available.

Tommy H in Danville

- - - -

On 1/1/2013 13:54, dennya61188 wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me how can I get a copy of that 1958 Grapevine article? Thank you.
| 8970|8859|2013-01-04 14:03:03|L|Re: Bill W.'s New Documentary DVD|
The documentary is currently available here on TimeWarner's On Demand. While there isn't much new ground broken for members of this group, the footage is stunning, and well worth your time.

- - - -

Original message from: Bill Lash
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2012
Subject: Bill W.'s New Documentary DVD

The Bill W. documentary that was in theaters earlier this year (& is still in theaters in some areas) is now available for order on DVD:

http://www.page124.com/store
| 8971|8859|2013-01-04 14:14:29|Cindy Miller|Re: Bill W.'s New Documentary DVD|
... showing it at the local clubhouse tonight ....

-cm
Philly
| 8972|8972|2013-01-04 15:15:35|Glenn Chesnut|History of antidepressants|
History of the Use of Antidepressants in Primary Care
Joseph A. Lieberman III, M.D., M.P.H.
http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/pccpdf/v05s07/v05s0702.pdf

ORIGIN OF MODERN PSYCHOPHARMACOLOGY

The roots of psychopharmacology as a scientific discipline can be traced to the
late 19th century when drug treatments such as lithium were used for inmates of
insane asylums, though the mechanisms of both the illnesses and the drugs being
used to treat them remained poorly understood.

In the early 20th century, experimental testing of the scientific basis of
psychoactive effects of drugs with opioid alkaloids led to coining of the term
psychopharmacology. This period also witnessed many attempts to treat depressed
patients by using psychoactive substances.

As only marginal success was seen with stimulants and chemical shock treatments,
electroconvulsive therapy remained the treatment of choice for depressed
patients throughout the first half of the 20th century. It was not until the
1950s that major breakthroughs in psychopharmacology occurred.

The molecular manipulation of antihistamines led to the first important
breakthrough: synthesis of phenothiazines by Charpentier at Rhone-Poulenc and
the development of chlorpromazine as an antipsychotic agent. Chlorpromazine was
found to exert potent tranquilizing effects and relieve symptoms such as
aggression and hallucinations. Researchers in molecular chemistry took great
interest in the development of chlorpromazine and began to systematically alter
the structure of antihistamines and other psychoactive agents in the search for
potential therapies. Despite these systematic efforts, serendipity played a
large role in the discovery of the first modern antidepressant agents.

DISCOVERY OF ANTIDEPRESSANTS

In 1952, while being studied as a possible treatment for tuberculosis, the antimycobacterial agent iproniazid was discovered to have psychoactive properties. It was noted that even terminally ill patients who were given this drug became cheerful, more optimistic, and more physically active .... this class became known as monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). Despite this reported effect, MAOIs were not used clinically for treatment of depressed patients until almost a decade later.

Development of distinctly different antidepressant agents, separate from the
MAOIs, also occurred during this time. Molecular modifications of phenothiazines
led to synthesis of imipramine, the first clinically useful tricyclic
antidepressant (TCA).

While MAOIs and TCAs presented major advances in treatment of depressed
patients, their use was hindered by significant safety and toxicity issues,
unpleasant side effects like sedation, as well as potentially dangerous drug and
substance interactions. Further modifications of the phenothiazine molecule
yielded comparatively safer and better-tolerated TCAs, including desipramine and
amitriptyline.

Early 1900s:
-Coining of term psychopharmacology
-Use of electroconvulsive therapy for depression
-Minimally successful attempt to treat
depression pharmacologically

1950s:
-Development of phenothiazines
-Synthesis and clinical use of
chlorpromazine for psychosis
-Discovery of iproniazid's (and MAOIs')
antidepressant effects in tuberculosis patients
-Synthesis of other MAOIs, like tranylcypromine
-Synthesis and beginning use of TCAs, like imipramine, for depression

1960s:
-Beginnings of broad clinical use of TCAs, like amitriptyline, now preferred
over MAOIs
-Catecholamine hypothesis of depression widely discussed and investigated
-Major advances in knowledge of and techniques used to study nervous system

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressant

Opioids were used to treat major depression until the late 1950s.[Nyiro G, G (1962). Pszichiatria. Medicina.]

Amphetamines were used until the mid-1960s.[citation needed]

Weber, MM; Emrich, HM (July 1988). "Current and Historical Concepts of Opiate Treatment in Psychiatric Disorders". International Clinical Psychopharmacology (Lippincott Williams & Wilkins) 3 (3): 255–66.

In 1951, Irving Selikoff and Edward Robitzek, working out of Sea View Hospital
on Staten Island, began clinical trials on two new anti-tuberculosis agents
developed by Hoffman-LaRoche, isoniazid and iproniazid. Only patients with a
poor prognosis were initially treated; nevertheless, their condition improved
dramatically. Selikoff and Robitzek noted "a subtle general stimulation . . .
the patients exhibited renewed vigor and indeed this occasionally served to
introduce disciplinary problems." The promise of a cure for tuberculosis in the
Sea View Hospital trials was excitedly discussed in the mainstream press. In
1952, learning of the stimulating side-effects of isoniazid, the Cincinnati
psychiatrist Max Lurie tried it on his patients. In the following year, he and
Harry Salzer reported that isoniazid improved depression in two thirds of their
patients and coined the term antidepressant to describe its action. A similar
incident took place in Paris, where Jean Delay, head of psychiatry at
Sainte-Anne Hospital, heard of this effect from his pulmonology colleagues at
Cochin Hospital. In 1952, before Lurie and Salzer, Delay, with the resident
Jean-Francois Buisson, reported the positive effect of isoniazid on depressed
patients. For reasons unrelated to its efficacy, isoniazid as an antidepressant
was soon overshadowed by the more toxic iproniazid, although it remains a
mainstay of tuberculosis treatment.

Selikoff and Robitzek also experimented with another anti-tuberculosis,
iproniazid; it showed a greater psychostimulant effect, but more pronounced
toxicity. Later, Jackson Smith, Gordon Kamman, George Crane, and Frank Ayd,
described the psychiatric applications of iproniazid. Ernst Zeller found
iproniazid to be a potent monoamine oxidase inhibitor. Nevertheless, iproniazid
remained relatively obscure until Nathan Kline, the influential and flamboyant
head of research at Rockland State Hospital, began to popularize it in the
medical and popular press as a "psychic energizer". Roche put a significant
marketing effort behind iproniazid, including promoting its off-label use for
depression. Its sales grew until it was recalled in 1961, due to reports of
lethal hepatotoxicity.

The antidepressant effect of a tricyclic, a three ringed compound, was first
discovered in 1957 by Roland Kuhn in a Swiss psychiatric hospital. Antihistamine
derivatives were used to treat surgical shock and later as neuroleptics.
Although in 1955 reserpine was shown to be more effective than placebo in
alleviating anxious depression, neuroleptics were being developed as sedatives
and antipsychotics.

Attempting to improve the effectiveness of chlorpromazine, Kuhn, in conjunction
with the Geigy Pharmaceutical Company, discovered that compound "G 22355", later
renamed imipramine. Imipramine had a beneficial effect in patients with
depression who showed mental and motor retardation. Kuhn described his new
compound as a "thymoleptic" "taking hold of the emotions," in contrast with
neuroleptics, "taking hold of the nerves" in 1955-56. These gradually became
established, resulting in the patent and manufacture in the US in 1951 by
Häfliger and SchinderA.

- - - -

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1952143,00.html

Researchers discovered the first antidepressants purely by chance in the 1950s.
Seeking a treatment for schizophrenia, scientists at the Munsterlingen asylum in
Switzerland found that a drug that tweaked the balance of the brain's
neurotransmitters -- the chemicals that control mood, pain and other sensations
-- sent patients into bouts of euphoria. For schizophrenics, of course, that
only made their condition worse. But researchers soon realized it made their
pill perfect for patients with depression. On first trying it in 1955, some
patients found themselves newly sociable and energetic and called the drug a
"miracle cure." The drug, called imipramine and marketed as Tofranil in 1958,
was quickly followed by dozens of rivals-- known as tricyclics for their
three-ring chemical structure-- as drug companies rushed to take advantage of a
burgeoning market.

The drugs provided relief to 60% to 80% of patients, but they also caused
serious side effects, including sluggishness, weight gain and occasionally death
from overdose. The ground was ripe for a better pill, and it wasn't long before
scientists produced a new, highly targeted class of antidepressants, led by
Prozac, which hit the U.S. market in 1987, followed by Zoloft in 1991 and Paxil
in 1992. Instead of blanketing a broad range of brain chemicals, the drugs --
known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) -- zeroed in on one:
serotonin, a critical compound that ferries signals between nerve cells. SSRIs
provided relief for the same percentage of patients as their predecessors did
but were easier to prescribe without risking overdose and had fewer side
effects.
| 8973|8921|2013-01-06 10:30:02|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick|
From: Ron Roizen ronroizen@frontier.com (ronroizen at frontier.com)

For a look at one sort of role conflict Fosdick found himself caught in as a
result of his association with A.A. and Mrs. Marty Mann, the list might find
this of interest. It is a blog from Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs
History Society.

Best, Ron Roizen

- - - -

"Dry Pushback Against Mann's Alcoholism Movement and Robert King Merton's
Manifest and Latent Functions: A Perplexing Combination"

Posted on November 17, 2011 by ronroizen9

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/dry-pushback-against-manns-alcoholism-movement-and-robert-king-mertons-manifest-and-latent-functions-a-perplexing-combination/

My thinking on this post started off in one direction and then suddenly veered
into another direction entirely. As you'll see.

My original plan was simply to recount a triangular correspondence involving
Laurance L. Cross, Harry Emerson Fosdick, and Marty Mann that occurred in 1947.

Their letters to one another captured a telling instance of pushback against
Mann's then-fledgling alcoholism-is-a-disease campaign from a disgruntled dry.

Laurance L. Cross was pastor of the Northbrae Community Church in Berkeley,
California and, from 1947 to 1955, that city's mayor as well; he was also
apparently a staunch and diehard dry sympathizer and as well (sans any hint of
mutatis mutandis) chair of the local unit of Mann's National Committee for
Education on Alcoholism (NCEA).

Harry Emerson Fosdick was a nationally prominent Protestant theologian. His
controversial advocacy of a modernist position on biblical interpretation landed
him on the cover of Time magazine in 1930. Fosdick was also a member of Mann's
organization's advisory board and as well brother of Raymond Fosdick, chief of
John D. Rockefeller, Jr.'s philanthropic establishment. According to Wikipedia,
H.E. Fosdick's 1939 favorable review of Alcoholics Anonymous (i.e., "The Big
Book") is still regarded in that fraternity as "significant in the development
of the AA movement."

Cross had previously contacted Mann directly and, not having received a
satisfactory response, referred his displeasure on to fellow member of the cloth
Fosdick.

Cross's letter is a fascinating document and merits close reading.

After apologizing for bothering Fosdick with his concerns, Cross explained:
"Ever since it was announced that I was to be the chairman [of the local NCEA
chapter] I have been bombarded with criticism. And when Mrs. Marty Mann came and
lectured for a few days, it grew worse."

Cross's consternation focused on some indisputably un-dry assertions Mann was
quoted as making in local newspapers. For one, as Cross re-quoted it in his
letter, Mann had opined: "Ailments popularly attributed to alcohol are not
caused by alcohol at all -- they are diseases of malnutrition arising from the
alcoholic's practice of drinking his meals instead of eating them." For another,
once again quoted by Cross for Fosdick's eyes: "This organization is not dry,
does not want Prohibition."

Cross wasn't buying.

"As to the first [quoted assertion]," he wrote,

=============================================
I have buried too many alcoholics, gotten too many out of jail and tried to
settle too many family rows due to it, in the thirty years of my pastorate, to
believe that alcohol does no more harm to a man than the missing of a few meals.
=============================================

"As to the second," Cross continued, "I feel that Mrs. Mann's statement was not
neutral but definitely on the side of the wets."

Mann, reported Cross, had responded that she had been misquoted. "But to be
misquoted," lamented Cross,

=============================================
in every paper with statements that are highly offensive to traditional drys and
highly comforting to the wets makes my position as chairman very uncomfortable.
=============================================

Cross next turned to the awkward issue of rumors of wet support for Mann's
campaign and organization. Cross wrote:

=============================================
Mrs. Mann made the statement that the Committee took no money from either the
organized wets or the organized drys.

A prominent member of the San Francisco committee told me that Mrs. Mann told
him that they intended to take money from the organized wets but that, for the
moment, she did not consider the Committee strong enough to resist criticism.

Another man who claims to have worked with Mrs. Mann at Yale and who also claims
to have been the publicity agent for the Yale School of Alcohol Studies, says
that the Committee is now taking money from the organized wets but that it
insists that the checks be personal ones rather than company-signed.
=============================================

The conclusion to Cross's letter included four short, no-nonsense paragraphs:

=============================================
I am not a member of the Anti-Saloon League or the WCTU, but I do see the tragic
and terrible harm being done by liquor, and I have a standing in the community
to maintain, and I don't propose to be used by a group which is giving forth as
uncertain a sound as the Committee is giving forth right now.

Can you tell me if Mrs. Mann is sincere? And if sincere, is she tactful enough,
and wise enough, not to do more harm than she does good as she travels about?

Is the Committee sacrificing the whole for the part in limiting its work to the
chronic alcoholic?

Is the Committee being used by the liquor forces to promote the idea that
drinking is all right for the 97 out of a 100 who can hold it but all wrong for
the 3 out of 100 who are congenitally "Allergic" to it?
=============================================

Cross's January 14, 1947 letter doubtless put Fosdick on the spot. Fosdick
shared it with Mann, requesting that Mann ghostwrite Fosdick's reply. Mann
responded to Fosdick in a letter dated January 23rd, which response, it appears,
comprised both a letter to Fosdick himself providing some context for the
dispute with Cross and a ghosted text for Fosdick's use in reply to Cross.
Fosdick replied to Cross in a letter dated January 24th. I am not going to
unpack Fosdick's letter to Cross in this post (maybe another time) but I will
convey something important about the letter's content in what follows.

Now, the veering off part.

Reading Cross's, Mann's, and Fosdick's letters caused me to dig out my old copy
of Robert King Merton's Social Theory and Social Structure for a fresh look at
his wonderful essay on manifest and latent functions in sociological analysis.
The reason will become clear in a moment.

But first, a few preliminary words about the functionalist interpretation of the
modern alcoholism movement:

The manifest function of the alcoholism movement was to transform and improve
the social definition and handling of alcoholism in American society. But the
movement had a key latent function as well. By lodging the problem of alcoholism
in a small segment of the population with an anomalous physiological reaction to
the commodity, the alcoholism movement effectively made alcohol use safe for the
great mass of the rest of us.

In this way, the alcoholism movement served the latent function of
domesticating, normalizing, or de-vilifying the commodity in the nation's new
post-Repeal cultural environment. In this sense, then, the alcoholism movement
provided a layer of symbolic legitimacy for alcohol to go along with its
renewed, post-Repeal commercial legitimacy. Incidentally, I have long marveled
at how very timely A.A.'s genesis was in relation to this legitimizing latent
function: AA often dates its commencement event to May, 1935, a mere 18 months
after Repeal's final ratification by the states in December, 1933.

I mention this duality of the alcoholism movement with respect to its manifest
and latent functions for a reason. As I read Mann's letter to Fosdick and
Fosdick's letter to Cross it struck me that Fosdick's reply to Cross lent itself
to a quite simple interpretive scheme, namely: Whereas Cross had cried foul on
account of the alcoholism movement's latent functions (i.e., domesticating
alcohol), Fosdick's response to Cross (probably mostly or entirely ghosted by
Mann) took refuge in an emphasis of the movement's manifest function (i.e.,
helping alcoholics). In other words, Fosdick's letter emphasized all the good
things the movement was accomplishing and could accomplish in the future for the
alcoholic. Fosdick's letter also implicitly conveyed that the alcoholism
movement's interests were orthogonal to the old wet-dry axis of debate.

How much or how little Mann's movement's manifest function actually required,
for instance, her assertions about alcohol's innocence respecting many illnesses
formerly attributed to drinking is an interesting question. That sort of
assertion would not have stemmed from Mann's experience with A.A. Instead it
doubtless reflected Mann's attachment to the Yale alcohol research group headed
by Howard W. Haggard. The Yale group's suasive agenda included making a
determined effort to differentiate its "new scientific approach" to alcohol
problems from the preceding era's temperance sensibility and temperance science.

Only five years earlier, a report by public relations specialist Dwight Anderson
had urged the new, post-Repeal mainstream scientific community to embrace the
disease concept of alcoholism as a symbolic device for clearly installing that
crucial differentiation in the general public's mind. Mann had been retained by
Haggard and E.M. Jellinek in 1944 to take the point on promulgating the disease
concept to the American public. Her campaign's main purpose, as far as Yale
scientists were concerned, was to advance the interests (and, incidentally, the
funding prospects) of a new, neutralist science in the American alcohol problems
domain. In effect, then, the new scientific initiative harbored a third set of
purposes for the alcoholism movement.

Sociologist Robert King Merton's essay on manifest and latent functions --
incidentally, originally penned in 1948 -- is something I remember reading with
great appreciation a long time ago. I examined it once again over the past few
days hoping to shed a little light on the functionalist interpretation of the
Cross-Fosdick-Mann exchange. It helped. But it also raised more questions than
it answered.

Therein, Merton made a strong point of analytically distinguishing motives for
actions from social functions. The two notions, Merton argued, occupied two
quite different planes of agency and explanation. Yet intentionality and
awareness did figure into how Merton discussed functionalism. Latent functions,
he argued, were generally unrecognized by actors on the ground for their
contribution to the social system. Manifest functions, on the other hand, were
recognized or known. Hence, the element of individual cognition and intention
made a backdoor entrance into the discussion of manifest and latent functions
and their proper differentiation and analysis.

All this spun through my mind as I tried to unpack and understand, in
particular, Fosdick's reply letter to Cross. How latent after all was the
alcoholism movement's domestication-of-alcohol function if a dry such as Cross,
for whom domestication represented a poison pill, complained bitterly about it?
Obviously, Cross recognized this aspect of Mann's rhetoric on behalf of the
alcoholism movement. Did that also mean that, for Cross at least, the
domestication function was not a latent function at all? Cross's concern that
wets might be bankrolling the new movement also harbored implications respecting
recognition and latency. Cross's belief or suspicion that the beverage industry
might not be wholly unaware of the alcoholism movement's symbolic benefits for
their products suggested, in turn, that the movement's domestication function
might not be properly termed a latent and unrecognized function with respect to
the beverage industry too.

Beyond the post-Repeal dry and wet camps or interests, how would the new
scientific community emerging around (and, in part, because of) the disease
concept campaign -- with their special knowledge of the campaign's public
relations motivations -- parse out into manifest and latent functions? It bears
noting that one of the underlying goals of the new scientific approach to
alcohol was to provide an escape hatch from the seemingly unending cultural
warfare between the two great adversaries, dry and wet. This
conflict-minimization goal arguably fits nicely into functionalism's underlying
presumption that eufunctionality, whatever else it does, must contribute to the
overall functional integration of society. Conflict reduction of course serves
that end.

Well then. If helping alcoholics, domesticating beverage alcohol, furthering
modern science's hegemony in the American alcohol problems domain, and
minimizing social conflict over alcohol all may be said to have been functions
of the alcoholism movement, how many more functions might be attached to it?
Moreover, which should be designated manifest and which latent, and from what
particular individual or institutional perspective should those designations be
made?

A flock of questions tumble out of this complexity. Can one institution's
manifest functions be latent functions from the perspective of another
institution? How successfully can sociological analysis maintain the explanatory
separation of the social-functional and individual-motivational levels of
understanding in assessing latent functions? Interestingly, Merton explored
Thorstein Veblen's theory of conspicuous consumption as an exemplar of good
latent functional analysis. In that connection Merton paused to consider a
special problem presented by Veblen's theory -- namely, Veblen's ideas
eventually became pretty well known in popular culture. Merton interjected only
the following bracketed comment, and no more, on the issue:

=============================================
[This raises the interesting problem of the changes occurring in the prevailing
pattern of behavior when its latent functions become generally recognized (and
thus are no longer latent). There will be no occasion for discussing this
important problem in the present publication.] (p. 124)
=============================================

What a pity -- for it is precisely this cultural seam between the unrecognized
latent functions and recognized latent functions that the history of the
alcoholism movement has presented us with. My own impression, incidentally, is
that the domestication-of-alcohol and self-serving purposes of the alcoholism
movement, once these became more generally recognized in the alcohol science
community, provided an important spur toward reframing alcohol as a public
health problem in the U.S. NCA's transformation into NCADD was also driven, I
think, largely by an increasing awareness of the earlier alcoholism movement's
domestication-of-alcohol and self-promotional functions.

But where then does this leave the prospects for a latent functional analysis of
the emergence of the modern alcoholism movement in post-Repeal America? Let me
take a wild stab:

I suggest is that it's a pretty safe bet that most Americans are still unaware
of the complex story of the alcoholism movement's emergence out of the ashes of
national prohibition and that movement's complex subterranean nexus of purposes,
motives, and functions. Only much smaller camps associated with the alcohol
domain -- scientists, NGO leaders, public policy mavens, government agency
bureaucrats, some undergrads and grad students, and diehard drys -- may be said
to represent active nurseries for knowledge of this nexus of purposes, motives,
and functions.

The barrier between a small nexus of in-the-know parties and the larger
not-in-the-know society in the U.S. has remained remarkably impermeable. Perhaps
this impermeability ultimately reflects the inescapable reality that a great
many people cannot become intimately familiar with the complexities of a great
many subjects. It may also reflect that most Americans do not view the
alcoholism movement or its public problems paradigm from the vantage points of
institutions with a stake in the ongoing struggle and competition over control
of the U.S. alcohol problems domain. Hence the alcoholism movement's legacy may
be said to have retained its latent functionality with respect to its
domestication-of-alcohol effects for the vast majority of Americans -- and
probably will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. I'm not sure this is
an altogether bad thing.

Too bad we don't still have Robert King Merton (1910-2003) among us to take a
crack at the perplexing but also intriguing relationship between the modern
alcoholism movement and the fine points of latent and manifest functional
analysis.

- - - -

"One Response to Dry Pushback Against Mann's Alcoholism Movement and Robert King
Merton's Manifest and Latent Functions: A Perplexing Combination" -- November
20, 2011 at 1:17 pm -- ronroizen9 says:

It's probably bad form to comment on one's own blog post. Yet it occurs to me
that one of the sources of social change from within a functionalist paradigm --
and, as Merton's essay noted, making a place for change in the functionalist
perspective isn't easy -- may well be the transformation brought about by the
slow or not necessarily so slow spread of awareness of the functional value of
formerly latent functions. This spread introduces a nice dynamic into the
functionalist picture of society, as the spread of awareness, in turn, creates
the evaluation of the original manifest function or functions against a new
appreciation of a formerly latent function or functions. As in the example of
the latent function of domesticating alcohol provided by the alcoholism
movement, as the latent function becomes better known and more manifest in the
society, the debate surrounding the movement and its functions shifts ground.
I'm suggesting that this kind of process may occur with respect to (some, few,
many, all?) latent functions in general over time, thus providing one way
functional analysis produces its own special engine for social change.
| 8974|8974|2013-01-07 14:21:23|Glenn Chesnut|John Berryman|
A famous U.S. author (1964 Pulitzer Prize) with drinking problems who ended up
committing suicide.

JOHN BERRYMAN (1914-1972)
DREAM SONGS TO SUICIDE

by Steve King

Today in Literature January 7, 2013

On this day in 1972 American poet John Berryman committed suicide at the age of
fifty-seven. His 77 Dream Songs won the 1964 Pulitzer, and the writing of some
300 more over the subsequent years earned Berryman international fame, but his
personal problems kept pace. These seem to stem from the severe trauma of his
father's early suicide, but whatever the cause, living became a volatile and
destructive mix of compulsions -- work, alcohol, sex, and four packs a day.

Berryman hated and scoffed at the label of "confessional poet," but he wrote
openly about all his troubles, and sometimes optimistically: when asked in 1970
about his poetic direction, he talked of his "secret hope" that he might be
visited by something like Beethoven's deafness or Milton's blindness, thus
becoming the "extremely lucky" artist "who is presented with the worst possible
ordeal which will not actually kill him." The poems written over the last
eighteen months reveal the raw, downward trail of his unluck, and a gradual
giving-up on religion, writing, teaching, marriage and change. From the
rehabilitation center in May, 1970, this pledge:

==============================
Under new management, Your majesty:
Thine. I have solo'd mine since childhood, since
my father's suicide when I was twelve
blew out my most bright candle faith, and look at me....
==============================

From another stay in rehab that autumn, still hanging on:

==============================
Surely he has a recovery for me
and that must be after all my complex struggles: very simple.

I do, despite my self-doubts, day by day
grow more & more but a little confident
that I will never down a whiskey again
or gin or rum or vodka, brandy or ale.

It is, after all, very very difficult to despair
while the wonder of the sun this morning
as yesterday & probably tomorrow.
It is, after all, very simple.

You just never drink again all each damned day.
==============================

From the spring of '71, back teaching at the University of Minnesota:

==============================
My Lord, I'm glad we don't
on x or y depend for Your being there.
I know You are there. The sweat is, I am here.
==============================

From a few weeks before his suicide -- dry now for eleven months, but in despair
after having judged his novel-in-progress, Recovery, worthless, and his research
book on Shakespeare pretty much the same:

==============================
O yes, I've had to give up somewhat here,
illusion on illusion, big books long laboured, a power
of working wellness to some, of securing this house,
the cocktail hour, --
but I am not without a companion: there's left Fear.
==============================

The fear must have left soon after: Berryman started drinking again on January
5th, and jumped from Minneapolis's Washington Avenue Bridge two days later.
| 8975|8975|2013-01-09 09:57:26|trysh travis|Matthew J. Raphael on anonymity and the 11th Tradition|
Points blog today carries a piece by Matthew J. Raphael, author of Bill W. and Mr. Wilson, about pseudonymous authorship and the 11th tradition:

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/

Trysh Travis
| 8976|8976|2013-01-11 09:40:09|Bob S|Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School|
An important AA historical note!

Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. (Please read Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers, pages 216-219)

During the fall of 1939, there had been a falling out between Dr. Bob's
wife, Anne, and Henrietta Seiberling. Henrietta didn't like the Big Book;
she held with the pure Oxford Group Ideas: The Four Absolutes and the OG
tenets. Dr. Bob held with Anne. Some thought this had to do with the final
split from the Akron Oxford Group meetings.

During that period, a few members of the 'drunk squad' at the OG meetings,
held at the home of T. Henry and Clarace Williams, claimed that they were
being treated in an unfriendly manner and would like to meet elsewhere.
When asked about this, T. Henry noted they were all over 21, but he would
never turn them out. He mentioned how much the 'boys' had done for us.

First meetings at Dr. Bobs house were in November or December, 1939,
although a few, including Rollie Hemsley, stayed on with the OG for a short
time, but then joined the rest. There is no record of that first meeting,
but here is a brief account from a Grapevine article:

". . . Dr Bob put his foot on the rung of a dining room chair, identified
himself as an alcoholic, and began reading Sermon on the Mount." In a
later letter to Bill W., he wrote: "Had 74 Wednesday in my little house, but
shall get a hall soon. WOW! Those of us who have visited Dr. Bob' small
living room can just imagine how they must have been packed like sardines!
74 of 'em! What a spirit must have filled that room!

But by January 10, 1940, they had rented a room at nearby Kings School and
stayed there for some years, but not meet on Wednesday evenings at a
different location. It is now a large speaker meeting.

I think this story is especially important because it marks the final
separation of the Alcoholics Anonymous fellowship from the Oxford Group. .
. . but many of the initial AA program of action principles had, by that
time, become irreversibly imbedded into our Big Book's clear-cut-directions.

Bob S.

PS - In our history lies our hope!
| 8977|8976|2013-01-11 21:21:16|Arthur S|Re: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School|
Didn't the NYC members meet at Burt T's tailor shop in August 1939?

- - - -

From: Bob S
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013
Subject: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School

Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. (Please read Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers, pages 216-219)
| 8978|8976|2013-01-13 10:05:48|jax760|Re: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School|
The meeting at Burt's shop occurred in late 1939 but to my knowledge is undated. The first meeting of AA in a public place was at Steinway Hall in Queens NY in September of 1939 (9/6/39 I believe). The Manhattan Group had gotten space there when they began attending the Emmet Fox Lectures. The second location/meeting of AA in a public place occurred on October 22, 1939 at the Community Center in South Orange, NJ. I believe one event is documented in one of Bill's talks or the Grapevine and the other event documented in Lois' diary.

After Bill was evicted in April 1939 the meetings moved to New Jersey. After Kathleen Parkhurst kicked Hank out the meeting (Sundays) bounced around NJ between South Orange and Green Pond, in NY over to Flatbush Brooklyn, Burt's apartment on 72nd St, Burt's shop.

For the most part the Jerseyites stayed in NJ and the Manhattan Group stayed in NY. I believe you will find this info in one of Bill's talks to the Manhattan Group ........ might be called the Road from Clinton Street???? - Sorry on the road and don't have my LOH with me.

God Bless,

John B

Warm Regards

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Arthur S wrote:
>
> Didn't the NYC members meet at Burt T's tailor shop in August 1939?
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Bob S
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013
> Subject: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School
>
> Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. (Please read Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers, pages 216-219)
| 8979|8979|2013-01-15 10:46:51|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Higher Power Project Conference, Public Lecture and Practitioner's S|
From: w.dossett@chester.ac.uk
(w.dossett at chester.ac.uk)

Dear Friends of The Higher Power Project

Happy New Year! Hope this finds you well and flourishing!

The chances are you've already received this through other routes, so apologies for cross-posting, but we're just trying to make sure no-one gets missed out.

Please find attached the details of upcoming events on February 20th and 21st at Chester. We are using the first day to explore a range of explicitly faith-based approaches to addiction/recovery. We have a Public Lecture on the evening of Feb 20th given jointly by Keith Humphreys and Mark Gilman.

==================================================
*Keith Humphreys is Professor of Psychiatry
and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University
in California in the U.S.

*Chris Cook is Professor of Theology and Director
of the Project for Spirituality, Theology and
Health at Durham University. (Durham is in
northeastern England, just 75 miles or so south
of the Scottish border.)

*Chester is on the west coast of England (ten
miles from the sea), just a couple of miles
from the Welsh border.
==================================================

And on Feb 21st we have a seminar day geared towards practitioners in the addictions field, in which we'll explore some outputs of the research of the HPP so far, and use the coming together of professionals from different backgrounds as an opportunity to share insights and good practice with each other. Hope you can come to some or all of these events as appropriate to you. We also hope that you may be able to promote the conference through your networks.

Thanks for your ongoing interest and support of the work of the Project. To keep in close touch don't forget to follow us on Twitter @higherpowerproj.

Best wishes
Wendy

Dr Wendy Dossett
Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies
Department of Theology and Religious Studies
University of Chester
Parkgate Road
CHESTER
CH1 4BJ
Tel: 44 + (0)1244 513975
http://www.chester.ac.uk/postgraduate/religious_studies

==================================================
UNIVERSITY OF CHESTER
THE HIGHER POWER PROJECT

http://www.chester.ac.uk/higherpowerproject

The Higher Power Project is an attempt to record and map the range of understandings of ���Higher Power��� used by people in recovery from addiction to alcohol or drugs.

The Project

The Higher Power Project is an attempt to record and map the range of understandings of ���Higher Power��� or ���power greater than ourselves��� used by people in recovery from addiction to alcohol or drugs. Those in recovery through Twelve Step Programmes, or Treatment Centres which use the Twelve Steps, are likely to have some concept of Higher Power, but people in recovery through other methods may also use the concept, or have a response to it that they might like to share with the project team.

The findings of the project will help to inform a more accurate understanding of what is sometimes described as the spirituality of Twelve Step and other recovery programmes. We hope that our analysed data will be of value to treatment providers, the medical profession, social workers and anyone interested in ways in which addicts and alcoholics in sustained recovery build healthy new lives.
The Team

The project team has no fixed ideas about what notions of Higher Power ���should��� be like. They are aware that the range of interpretations is vast, and they are simply interested in mapping that range. As well as having expertise in human health and the study of religion and spirituality, the team is experienced in working with people in recovery.
==================================================
| 8980|8980|2013-01-15 11:31:19|jax760|The Chicago Pamphlets - early literature|
In Trysh Travis's book the Language of the Heart I took notice of the discussion surrounding the "Chicago pamphlets." In searching this forum I found some discussion back from 2007 but the links are no good. Does anyone have pdf copies of the pamphlets or a contact at Chicago Intergroup where the pamphlets might be obtained?

Most interested....!

God Bless

John B
| 8981|8948|2013-01-15 11:47:59|Charles|Re: Is there a copy of the postcard which advertised the Big Book?|
Hello again,

I discovered the scanned copy of this post card only showed half of the original. The post card that The Alcoholic Foundation mailed was a two part design -- one part was advertisement for the radio program and the other part was postage paid order form for a Big Book. The advertisement part was to be detached and thrown away and the other mailed in requesting our book. Here is what the other half looked like.

Charles from Wisconsin


================================================
ORDER FORM
Gentlemen:
Please deliver me______________ copies of your book "Alcoholics
Anonymous" (with personal stories) at $3.50by Parcel post, C.O.D.

I understand this is upon free examination basis and the price paid
will be refunded to me if I return the book to you within seven days.

NAME ________________________________________

STREET NO.___________________________________

CITY AND STATE______________________________

================================================
| 8982|8933|2013-01-15 11:56:07|Doris|Re: Bill W's Depression - Some AA History|
Bill W's problem with depression is talked about in Language of the Heart along with some other articles that reference his struggles. He mentions walking miles repeating a phrase over and over.
| 8983|8980|2013-01-15 12:46:04|Jim Weaver|Re: The Chicago Pamphlets - early literature|
here are links i found to a couple of the early Chicago pamphlets.
 
http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/impressions_of_aa%20Chicago%20group.htm
 
http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/why_we_were_chosen.htm
 
 
jim
Dist. 49, Area 59
| 8984|8974|2013-01-16 15:58:39|J. Michael Gilbreath|Re: John Berryman|
From Michael Gilbreath, Glenn Chesnut, and Cindy Miller

- - - -

From: J. Michael Gilbreath <gildell@mac.com> (gildell at mac.com)

Glenn, thanks for sharing this.

Michael

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world"
Garcia & Hunter

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)

It's amazing how many famous American literary figures (poets, novelists, and playwrights) were alcoholics and came to unhappy ends as a result: well known alcoholics included Raymond Chandler, John Cheever, O. Henry, Tennessee Williams, Dorothy Parker, Edgar Allen Poe, Truman Capote, Jack Kerouac, William Faulkner, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, etc.

And authors from other countries as well: Dylan Thomas, James Joyce, etc.

What can you say? "There but for the grace of God .... "

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

deep. thank you for this. i am so blessed.
| 8985|8980|2013-01-16 16:04:16|last_town|Re: The Chicago Pamphlets - early literature|
Wow, thanks for this. My first sponsor gave me a copy of the second pamphlet, which I loved. I'd always wondered where it came from.

L

- - - -

Jim Weaver wrote: here are links I found to a couple of the early Chicago pamphlets.

http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/impressions_of_aa%20Chicago%20group.htm

http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/why_we_were_chosen.htm
| 8986|8974|2013-01-16 17:19:43|Joe Monda|Re: John Berryman|
This also about Berryman, from Commonweal magazine
http://commonwealmagazine.org

Broken Beauty
The Last Days of John Berryman

Created 12/20/2012 - 11:08am

Paul Mariani

On the morning of January 7, 1972, John Berryman, bearded and stoop-shouldered, trudged across the campus of the University of Minnesota in gelid Minneapolis before halting on a cement pedestrian walkway above the Mississippi River. He balanced himself on the metal rail, much as his hero Hart Crane had balanced on the stern rail of the S. S. Orizaba forty years earlier. Then, like Crane, he waved goodbye to those around him, before pushing forward and plunging into the unforgiving void below. He was fifty-seven years old.

Berryman was in Alcoholics Anonymous and had been dry for eleven months. But shortly before that January day, he had started drinking again. Two days before his death he had scribbled out one last poem, explaining how he meant to escape yet one more disappointment -- the lectures he had prepared for the class he was going to teach that semester had fallen far short of his own expectations, and he anticipated students dropping the course, the Administration hearing and offering me either a medical leave of absence or resignation -- Kitticat, they can't fire me --

He had a better plan for keeping everyone off his back: a simple tilt forward and he could escape all that.

Berryman's troubles began early: with the death of his father, John Allyn, when Berryman was just eleven. At the time his family was living in an apartment down on Clearwater Island in Tampa Bay. His mother, Martha Smith, had begun carrying on an affair with a janitor, and his suicidal father had found accommodations elsewhere. There were arguments, scenes, and recriminations out in the hall beyond the boys' closed bedroom door. Then, early on the morning of June 26, 1926, his mother walked into their room to tell them that their father was dead. His body lay spread-eagle in the alley behind their apartment. Apparently he had shot himself in the chest. Afterward, Martha and the janitor, who was twenty years older, married and moved with her sons to Queens, New York. The janitor's name was John Berryman, and the boys were told that they would be taking his last name. Years later, Martha would tell the old man that it was time to move out, and after he did, she tried to reinvent herself, instructing her son John to tell his friends that she was not his mother but his older (and single) sister.

Later in his life, Berryman wondered if his mother and stepfather hadn't killed his father and left the gun near his body. No wonder he obsessed over Hamlet's play within a play, in which the death of Hamlet's father is rehearsed on stage before his mother and her new husband, the usurper king. Berryman once went so far as to invite his mother to hear him lecture on Hamlet while he was teaching at Princeton, hoping it might draw her out, but, as usual, she coolly avoided that well-laid trap.

Berryman's obsession with the father he'd lost as a boy followed him all his life, before, during, and after he composed the more than four hundred poems in his brilliant Dream Songs. The second-to-last of the published collection begins this way:

The marker slants, flowerless, day's almost done,
I stand above my father's grave with rage.[...]
I spit upon this dreadful banker's grave
Who shot his heart out in a Florida dawn
O ho alas alas
When will indifference come, I moan and rave

This brought to a tentative end what the first Song had begun. There, writing in the voice of his alter-ego Henry, Berryman described his early and prolonged reaction to his father's death:

Huffy Henry hid the day,
unappeasable Henry sulked.

The day his father died changed everything forever: from then on, nothing -- nothing -- ever "fell out as it might or ought."

As a boy in Oklahoma, and before his family moved to Florida, Berryman had served each morning at the early Mass with Fr. Boniface, the two of them up there by the small pre-Vatican II altar, intoning the Latin together -- Introibo ad altare Dei -- while elderly ladies knelt in the pews behind them. And he had been happy.

With the death of his father, his other Father, the one to whom he had prayed, also seemed to withdraw, receding into the shadows of literature. That Father, too, had seemed to abandon him, and so Berryman left the thought of him behind, making his way in life with whatever was at hand. Sex, adultery, booze, high-talk among his intellectual peers about the state of the world. He would read everything: the classics, the Bible (as literature), his worthy contemporaries. After living for a year in England, he spoke with a quasi-British accent for the rest of his days. He had heroes -- Hopkins, Housman, Yeats, Eliot, Pound -- and his company of literary pals -- among them Saul Bellow, Ralph Ellison, Delmore Schwartz, Robert Lowell, Randall Jarrell and Adrienne Rich -- though he would do his damnedest to outshine them all. He made elaborate lists of living poets just to see how he and they were faring with the passage of time.

"I am obliged to perform in complete darkness operations of great delicacy," Berryman wrote in one Dream Song. Many of these operations he'd performed on himself, reporting back what he had discovered about the human condition. Naturally, these were "operations of great delicacy" because they'd been performed in the shadow of death, and therefore of God. "Why did we come at all," Berryman asks in a Dream Song in his fifty-second year:

consonant to whose bidding? Perhaps God is a slob,
playful, vast, rough-hewn.

Perhaps God resembles one of the last etchings of Goya.[...]

Something disturbed,
ill-pleased, and with a touch of paranoia
who calls for this thud of love from his creatures-O.
Perhaps God ought to be curbed.

Then, three years later, there came another life-altering change. It happened when he was hospitalized for extreme intoxication in the late spring of 1970. He found himself in a locked ward at a Catholic hospital, St. Mary's. It was decided he was a danger to himself. He was informed by Jim Zosel, an Episcopal priest who was charged with looking after him and the others on the floor that, no, he could not take a taxi to campus so that he could teach his classes because every time he did, he cajoled the driver into stopping at a local bar afterward so he could refresh himself with half a dozen drinks before returning to the hospital to continue his treatment. But, since Berryman was teaching a course that included the Bible as literature that term, the priest volunteered to take over his class for him.

It was the discovery that someone could actually care enough about him to do such a thing that took Berryman by surprise -- floored him in fact. And so his recovery began. He joined AA, acted as a sponsor to others, stayed off the booze "each damned day," and began attending weekly Mass, though he remained acutely critical of the shortcomings -- stylistic and otherwise -- of the young priest's homilies in these too-easy post-Vatican II days. At the time, Berryman had been assembling new poems in a post-Dream Song mode in an effort to remake himself -- without much success. These poems were written in unrhymed quatrains that owed a great deal to the style of Emily Dickinson, as well as to the irreverent French poete maudit Tristan Corbiere, who had died of consumption at twenty-nine -- like Dickinson, an unknown figure at his death.

On the other hand, it had been a long time since Berryman himself was unknown. By the mid-'60s, he was in demand everywhere, having been showered with awards and prizes and rave notices in publications like Time and Life. Likewise, from his college days on, he had had his share of what he liked to call love. He meant to call the new volume he was finishing up then Love and Fame, and he was pleased -- oh yes -- with the part of it he'd already written.

And then came his new religious turn, which puzzled, amused, and disturbed the literary critics, as well as his fellow poets. The volte-face began abruptly with the "Eleven Addresses to the Lord." If God was the "slob" he'd complained of earlier, the locked ward Berryman now found himself in was a nagging reminder of who the real slob really was. This new self-awareness in the face of recovery led in turn to a sense of overwhelming gratitude for having somehow been rescued. The first poem in the sequence begins:

Master of beauty, craftsman of the snowflake,
inimitable contriver,
endower of Earth so gorgeous and different from the boring Moon,
thank you for such as it is my gift.

A prayer of praise, then, followed by antiphons of thanksgiving -- as with the Lord's Prayer and the Psalms. But poem prayers with their own wry sense of humor: gallows humor, trench humor, perhaps, but funny and vulnerable. In the desert landscape of the moon's surface (recently photographed up close by astronauts who had walked on that surface), Berryman had seen an image of his own soul's desolate condition. Nothing for it, then, but to beg God to get him out of that hell: "You have come to my rescue again and again," he sang now, "in my impassible, sometimes despairing years."

Of course he still had questions. Given the human condition, he understood that he would always have questions. How did one love a God who was essentially unknowable? Did we live again after death? It didn't "seem likely / from either the scientific or the philosophical point of view." But who was he to say? One thing was clear: He was surer now than ever that "all things are possible to you." He also understood that he was now ready to move on with "gratitude and awe," hoping to "stand until death forever at attention / for any your least instruction or enlightenment."

"Eleven Addresses to the Lord" is the cry of a brilliant and broken man who had come to admit that he, too, was in need of consolation. He thought of the broken witnesses who had gone before him -- of people like St. Polycarp, disciple of John the Evangelist, who had been given the choice by the Roman authorities to deny Christ or be burned alive. And now Berryman recalled the old man's astounding response:

'Eighty and six years have I been his servant,
and he has done me no harm.
How can I blaspheme my King who saved me?'

Berryman ended his remarkable sequence with yet another prayer, a plea this time, that God would make him too somehow acceptable at the end,

in my degree, which then Thou wilt award.
Cancer, senility, mania,
I pray I may be ready with my witness.

And life went on much as before. In the winter of '71 Berryman was at work on his own version of the Divine Office. This sequence, titled "Opus Dei," opens his final, posthumous volume of poems, Delusions, Etc. At the beginning of this sequence, Berryman quotes Tolstoy's "The Devil." If the protagonist of that story, Berryman reminds us, "was mentally deranged, everyone is in the same case," for the most mentally deranged are those "who see in others indications of insanity they do not notice in themselves."

"With the human exhausted," the critic Helen Vendler has written, "Berryman solicited the divine." The religious poems he wrote near the end of his life, especially the ones in the "Opus Dei" sequence, were, Vendler insisted, simply no good. If Mr. Berryman had discovered a "newly simple heart" and new visions into the workings of his God, whatever temporary calm they gave his soul, [they] gave no new life to his poetry, and the last two poems, particularly ["Vespers" and "Compline"], are intolerable to read. When he became the redeemed child of God, his shamefaced vocabulary drooped useless, and no poet can be expected to invent, all at once and at the end of his life, a convincing new stance, a new style in architecture along with his change of heart. Berryman's suicide threw all finally into question -- Henry's sly resourcefulness as much as Berryman's abject faith. In the end, it seems, neither was enough to get through the day on, and even though a voice divine the storm allayed, a light propitious shone, this castaway could not avoid another rising of the gulf to overwhelm him.

Shamefaced. Abject. Vendler could not bear to see the old virtuoso brought low. But consider this: Writing as a broken man, Berryman had used all the resources still at his command, knowing that he could no longer take refuge in modernist irony. Or at least, knowing himself and his own old evasions too well, he was going to try his damndest not to. He had stuck to his old irony with others in the hospital who, like him, had hit rock bottom. But they, having heard it all before, had spotted at once the buzzing lies, false reconstructions, and obfuscations.

As he sweated over his final sequence, "gunfire and riot" were fanning "thro' new Detroit." Antiwar protesters were being tried, fined, and imprisoned. The world around him was in chaos, and so was he. He had made mistakes. His body was a wreck. But he would bear witness in this terrible time, in and all around him, as best he could. He hoped and prayed that Origen was right after all and that hell was either "empty / Or will be." Given human nature as he knew it, sin seemed inevitable, and, yes, humanity would suffer for it "now and later / but not forever, dear friends and brothers!"

It is mid-winter in Minneapolis as he sweats over these lines. At the moment, he understands, there are "no fair bells in this city," and, in truth, his house, with his wife and two daughters asleep, feels as cold as the darkest corner of his mind. Still, he must continue his conversation with the God who, he now knows, had never really abandoned him. And he prays that if somehow he should fall at last from some terrifying height, the same God he is speaking to will be there to hold him up. After all, he has fallen often before, into addiction and madness, and has somehow been caught. And so he waits out the dark nights of another winter, and another dark night for his soul.
| 8987|8974|2013-01-18 07:58:55|Tom Hickcox|Re: John Berryman|
I think almost everyone on the list knows you don't have to be a
well-known author to crash and burn from alcoholism.

Tommy H in Danville
| 8988|8980|2013-01-18 08:08:19|khemex@comcast.net|Re: The Chicago Pamphlets - early literature|
The pamphlet "Why we were chosen" is an excerpt from Judge John Touhy at the 4th anniversary of the Chicago Group, October 5, 1943. I have taken the liberty of attaching a copy of that outstanding talk below.

Gerry Winkelman

- - - -

Address by Judge John Touhy
4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group
October 5, 1943

Tonight marks the fourth anniversary of the founding of the Chicago Group.
In some respects the word "anniversary" ' is not a satisfactory term to
describe this occasion for it carries the implication that a goal, a
congratulatory period, a resting point on a journey has been reached The
program which we have entered upon really has no terminus, for it involves a
continuous striving for improvement. Congratulatory periods tend to
smugness, resting periods to retrogression. This program is not to be
measured in years. It is timeless in every sense except day to day, or even
more precisely, now!

The history of alcoholic addiction is marked by an unwillingness or
inability to live in the present. For it the morbid past has an unholy
attraction and the uncertain future is filled with vague forebodings. The
hope of the Alcoholic, the real tangible hope of the Alcoholic is in the
present, now is the acceptable time, the past is beyond recall -- the future
is as uncertain as life itself. Only the now is ours.

As I look about me tonight I see many new faces. Some are here present for
the first time, some who have been here before, and having failed in their
quest of sobriety have returned. To such of you the knowledge that some of
us have been dry since the beginning of this group four years ago may
incline to feelings of strangeness or timidity, and you should feel neither
strange nor timid with us who share a common infirmity. To you bit a few
days or a few weeks removed from the misery and remorse of a recent spree,
four years of sobriety may seem an eternity bit there is no such thing as
seniority in a timeless program. We, who thru the Grace of God have stayed
dry, are at the most, but twenty-four hours in the vanguard.

True, we have the advantage of a better understanding of our problem. Day
upon day, day after day, our sobriety has resulted in the formation of new
habits which makes the matter of staying so a less fearsome ordeal than it
was in the beginning. We have had the advantage of association with other
Alcoholics which has taken us from our old haunts and tended to remove, in a
measure, the occasions of alcoholic suggestion. We older ones in our daily
attempts to live according to the twelve steps of our program have made
start, at least, toward eradicating disconcerting personality defects. But,
important as all these considerations are, the great step, toward our
regeneration was accomplished in that moment when we admitted we were
powerless over alcohol and made a decision to turn our will, and lives over
to God, as we understood Him. That act of resignation was an act of the then
present moment, and that Source is as available to you now as it was to us
then.

The days pass quickly by and time seems unimportant. A little while ago
there was Earl, then there were two and now there are hundreds. This group
is not a result of mass production, this pro-gram cannot be sold. It can be
lived a practiced and it is in the power of example that its first
attraction lies. Each of us presents the unselfish act, or series of acts,
of some other one or ones. We were reached individually by other men like
ourselves, who maybe for the first time in their lives had performed an
unselfish act.

Into our regeneration went no thought of individual profit on the part of
our sponsors, or greed or gain. We are the products of the most refined
charity that men can bestow upon one another. Namely, the recognition on the part of
others, of our true dignity as men, and their willingness to do unto us, as
they would have themselves done unto.

The thing that has happened in the short life of this group is difficult of
comprehension. Jack Alexander, the brilliant author of the Saturday Evening
Post article, says that only through the medium of fiction can it be
adequately depicted. Let us try to appraise it by an imaginary meeting. Let
us assume that four years ago tonight a group of the most learned medical
men in the city of Chicago were gathered together to discuss each of our
alcoholic case histories. As they reviewed them carefully, one by one, all
followed an identical pattern. There were those who for years drank as much
as two quarts of whiskey a day. There were others who drank daily for years
to the point of intoxication, and others who would go months without so much
as a glass of beer. There were those who had voluntarily subjected
themselves repeatedly to numerous so-called "cures"; some who voluntarily
had themselves committed to psychopathic institutions and insane asylums;
others who had experienced no more severe distress than an agonizing case of
jitters. But all were the same in this respect: that, having started to
drink, we had no self-control that would indicate a stopping point.

The records before this imaginary group of eminent scientists proved we were
alcoholics, many chronic, some acute! They showed long and unsuccessful
hospitalizations, psychopathic commitments and psychiatric investigations
all without a single successful result. The pronouncement of that august
Tribunal of physicians was that most of the cases were beyond the reach of
science, and that the remainder soon would be. After they had made this
solemn pronouncement, let us assume that a shadowy figure appeared and in an
unearthly voice said: "Notwithstanding the findings of this distinguished
group, in four short years these hundreds of cases that you have pronounced
incurable shall, with the help of God, be made whole." Around that room
would be exchanged scornful and doubtful glances and these unbelieving
medical men would say as did Thomas of old: "When we see we shall believe."
Yet each of us here present tonight is living proof that the prophecy of the
imaginary voice has been fulfilled; without the drama of the miracle but
just as certainly and just as attributable to the God of whom the imaginary
voice spoke.

The thing which has happened in the Chicago group, which is happening all
over the country, has come about so gradually and through such material
mediums as to pass unrecognized; even by us, for the moral miracle it really
is. Instead of suspending the natural law by direct intervention, God in His
wisdom has selected a group of men to be the purveyors of His goodness. In
selecting them through whom to bring about this phenomenon He went not to
the proud, the mighty, the famous or the brilliant. He went to the humble,
to the sick, to the unfortunate - he went to the drunkard, the so-called
weakling of the world. Well might He have said to us: Into your weak and
feeble hands I have entrusted a Power beyond estimate. To you has been given
that which has been denied the most learned of your fellows. Not to
scientists or statesmen, not to wives or mothers, not even to my priests and
ministers have I given this gift of healing other alcoholics, which I
entrust to you. It must be used unselfishly. It carries with it grave
responsibility. No day can be too long, no demands upon your time can be too
urgent, no case too pitiable, no task too hard, no effort too great. It must
be used with Tolerance for I have restricted its application to no race, no
creed and no denomination. Personal criticism you must expect, lack of
appreciation will be common, ridicule will be your lot, your motives will be
misjudged. Success will not always attend your efforts in your work with
other alcoholics. You must be prepared for adversity, for what men call
adversity is the ladder you must use to ascend the rungs toward Spiritual
perfection, and remember in the exercise of this power I shall not exact of
you beyond your capabilities.

You are not selected because of exceptional talents and be careful always
if success attends your efforts, not to ascribe to personal superiority,
that to which you can lay claim only by virtue of My gift. If I had wanted
learned men to accomplish this mission the power would have been entrusted
to the physician and scientist. If I had wanted eloquent men there would
have been many anxious for the assignment, for talk is the easiest used of
all talents with which I have endowed mankind. If I had wanted scholarly men
the world is filled with better qualified than you who would have been
available. You were selected because you have been the outcasts of the world
and your long experience as a drunkard has made, or should make you humbly
alert to the cries of distress that comes from the lonely hearts of
alcoholics everywhere. Keep ever in mind the admission that you made on the
day of your profession into A.A., namely that you are powerless and that it
was only with your willingness to turn your life and will into My keeping,
that relief came to you.

Think not, that because that you have been dry for one year or two years, or
ten years, that it is the result of your unaided efforts. The help which has
kept you normal will keep you so just as long as you live this program,
which I have mapped out for you. Beware of the pride which comes from
growth, the power of numbers and of invidious comparisons between
yourselves; or of your organization with other organizations whose success
depends upon members power, money and position. These material things are no
part of your creed. The success of material organizations arises out of the
strength of their individual members; the success of yours from a common
helplessness. The power of material organizations comes from the pooling of
joint assets; yours from the union of mutual liabilities. Appeal for
membership in material organizations is based upon a boastful recital of
their accomplishments; yours upon the humble admission of weakness; the
motto of the successful commercial enterprise is: "He profits most who
serves best"; yours: "He serves best who seeks no profit." The wealth of
material organizations when they take their inventory is measured by what
they have left; yours when you take moral inventory by what you have given.

If these things had been said to us there are those upon whom the
injunctions might lie heavy. They might seem austere and difficult commands
but this would only be because we have not realized or have forgotten the
critical nature of our infirmities. Physical disease requires drastic
measures for its cure, in many cases delicate and dangerous surgery. Our
conditions when we came into this group was even more serious than that of
one who goes to a hospital with a gangrenous limb. For, after all, the limit
of his risk is his life while we risked life and in addition things more
precious, sanity, honor, self-respect. We cannot expect to reach a problem
so deep-seated, that science deemed it unsolvable, with as little effort as
is required for the removal of a decayed tooth. It requires the doing of
difficult things including self-discipline and above all unswerving
obedience to a conscience. It is part of God's therapy that man cooperate; a
cooperation requiring high moral courage in the performance of difficult
tasks.

The aphorism "Man does not live by bread alone", is more than poetry. It is
the utterance of a great philosophical truth. There is a part of man that is
animal. That part requires that he have bread, and that in quest thereof he
be fitted to take his place in a highly competitive society. He must work,
he must play and he must laugh. But there is another part of man which is
Spiritual and that part can only be properly developed by the exercises and
restraints which conscience dictates. Unless man's Spiritual yearnings are
developed as well as his physical and mental abilities, he is unbalanced and
incomplete and a prey to those capital enemies of all alcoholics: fear,
loneliness, discouragement and futility.

And so as I draw to the end of these remarks, you must think I have
forgotten Earl and his anniversary. These things I have said to you have
been discussed many times with Earl. Often have I heard him emphasize that
no individual is responsible for this group. Earl was the leaven selected by
wise and benevolent Providence to germinate this group into being. He used
the material entrusted to him with patience, tolerance and understanding but
never for one moment has he felt that this group is his personal
accomplishment, or that he was more important to its well-being than the
most recently arrived alcoholic. The most that he would care to hear me say
about him is that he has tried to be a worthy instrumentality to carry out a
Divine mandate.

The wise, kindly man may steer us clear of many mistakes but even he makes
some. But in spite of mistakes, in spite of errors, even in the absence of
leadership such as that with which we have been blessed, this work will
continue as long as the alcoholic recognizes his helplessness and decides to
confide his destiny to God. In conclusion I would like to read a letter
which I received this evening from one of the early members of this group
who says about the group and about Earl that which I think, deep in our
hearts, all of us feel:

"Dear John:

As I told you the other day before I left, the discussion I listened to
briefly in Staley's last Friday infused me with the desire to add my two
cents' worth (in this case sixteen cents, air mail, special delivery) to the
meeting at which the fourth anniversary of the Chicago group will be
observed.

There is a strong temptation in all of us, I think, to rhapsodize over the
individual net gains in our lives, which we attribute to the blessings that
flow from the application of A.A. principles. These individual net gains,
measured in the recovery of jobs, in the restoration of happy family life,
in the rediscovery of self-respect, are fine in themselves, including as
they do some literal miracles, but I rather think that the Chicago group, of
which it was my happy privilege to be an early member, represents more than
the sum total of all these individual net gains.

As the focal point of the innumerable and necessarily unknown processes of
individual spiritual development by the members, the group itself has been
the graceful means for many to catch a fleeting but convincing glimpse of
the Infinite. That in itself makes the group a profound thing.

This, I'm afraid, is a little vague. But the fact that the group has been
what it is, is not attributable to Providence divorced from the individual,
but to sound, tolerant, and loving minds taking care of the details for
Providence . I think the application to Earl is too obvious to need further
elaboration. If, to save Earl embarrassment, not a word should be uttered
about him Tuesday night, the feeling that I have at a Chicago meeting, a
feeling I know is widely shared, that Christ is in approving attendance
there, - that feeling is eulogy enough."
| 8989|8980|2013-01-18 08:08:28|jax760|Re: The Chicago Pamphlets - early literature|
I'm hoping that either Trysh or Rick Tompkins can provide the remainder of the pamphlets?????

- - - -

Jim Weaver wrote: here are links I found to a couple of the early Chicago pamphlets:

http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/impressions_of_aa%20Chicago%20group.htm

http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/why_we_were_chosen.htm

Jim
Dist. 49, Area 59
| 8990|8948|2013-01-18 08:08:41|Ted Bell|Re: Is there a copy of the postcard which advertised the Big Book?|
Is there any record of anyone asking for a refund?

- - - -

From: Charles
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 1:02 PM

The post card that The Alcoholic Foundation mailed was a two part design -- one part was advertisement for the radio program and the other part was postage paid order form for a Big Book. The advertisement part was to be detached and thrown away and the other mailed in requesting our book.  Here is what the other half looked like.

Charles from Wisconsin

================================================
ORDER FORM
Gentlemen:
Please deliver me______________ copies of your book "Alcoholics
Anonymous" (with personal stories) at $3.50by Parcel post, C.O.D.

I understand this is upon free examination basis and the price paid
will be refunded to me if I return the book to you within seven days.

NAME ________________________________________

STREET NO.___________________________________

CITY AND STATE______________________________

================================================
| 8991|8991|2013-01-23 13:56:30|Glenn Chesnut|All the past AAHistoryLovers messages for archiving|
CLICK HERE to go to a webpage where all the past AAHL messages from 2002 to 2012
can be read and/or downloaded:

http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html

Our hope is that the major AA archives all around the world will download these
files and store them on a CD disk or some other permanent storage device, to
help make sure that later centuries will still be able to read and use this
material.

18.80 Mbytes of MS Word files (.docx)
30.45 Mbytes of text files (.txt)
97.98 Mbytes of Microsoft Access database files (.mdb)
147.23 Mbytes TOTAL

(a regular CD disk holds 700 Mbytes, so all three sets of files can be stored on
a single disk with room to spare)

- - - -

A.A. HISTORY LOVERS
The leading international webgroup for the study
of Alcoholics Anonymous history and archives

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

The collected messages of the AAHistoryLovers forms one of the largest single
bodies of good AA historical material gathered in one place, an impressive
accomplishment carried out by a number of the world's best AA historians. For
the sake of future generations, all the messages from the group's first eleven
years have now been put into computer files which can be either downloaded or
read online. They are provided here in the form of Microsoft Word files (DOCX),
text files (TXT), and Microsoft Access database files (MDB).

Here at the beginning of 2013 we are getting close to the end of the line, in
terms of people who knew the original founders of AA at first hand. In fact, the
AAHL was started in large part as a last-ditch effort to glean as much
information as possible from these people while we could still sit at their feet
and listen to them talk, and ask questions. The next generation will be forced
to rely solely on documents and audio recordings.

- - - -

Our present work on
archiving all this material

A program called PG Offline was used to download all of the first eleven years of AAHistoryLovers messages, from 2002 to 2012. They were downloaded in tabular form as Microsoft Access data files. Mail merge was then used to transfer this tabular data onto continuous word processor files, producing eleven preliminary documents, one per year, each one around a thousand or so pages long.

Unfortunately, these messages were still full of the kind of web page coding used for HTML files and other similar online documents, to such a point that many sections were nearly totally unreadable. So another program, called Detagger, then had to be used to strip all of this HTML coding out of the messages.

This detagged version is available here for either downloading or reading online, either in the form of MS Word documents or .txt text files. Almost all modern word processor programs will be able to read at least one of these file formats:

http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html

These documents are still extremely lengthy, and sometimes have the lines broken up in awkward ways. This is the result of literally tens of thousands of extraneous line breaks, which will have to be removed by hand. We are leaving this clean-up job to a later generation. Once this has been done, these documents should be only about half as long in terms of number of pages, and far easier to read. The important thing however is that they have now been preserved for posterity in a form that is perfectly readable and can be used by researchers even as is.

I earnestly hope that the major AA archives all around the world will download these files and store them on a CD disk or some other permanent storage device, to help make sure that later centuries will still be able to read and use this material.

Glenn C., moderator of the AAHL
January 21, 2013
| 8992|8980|2013-01-25 10:19:54|ricktompkins|Re: The Chicago Pamphlets - early literature|
The early Chicago literature totals eleven pamphlets printed before 1950. Every pamphlet continues to be published today by the Chicago Area Service Office.

The two mentioned in the message from Jim W. are listed here with the catalog numbers.

I can only suggest that anyone interested should telephone the CASO
Bookstore for their purchase.

Call 312-346-1475. The Bookstore is only open M-F 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m.

The Area 19 website's bookstore page is currently under construction, possibly due to SPAM and ordering errors from its previously online catalog: http://chicagoaa.org

Best of all, these early pamphlets are not expensive:

===============================================
C-1 Impressions of A.A.

C-2 A.A. - A Simple Program

C-3 The Long Haul

C-4 Willingness

C-5 A.A. God's Instrument ( 'why we are chosen' transcript from a 1943
talk)

C-6 So You Can't Stop Drinking

C-7 It's All In The Mind

C-8 A.A. Is A Tender Trap

C-9 Alcoholism and the A.A. Program (by a doctor in A.A.)

C-10 The Devil and A.A.

C-11 Out of the Fog
===============================================

The pamphlets were either transcribed from talks of early Chicago Group members or anonymously written by the early membership (newspaper journalists, editors, doctors).

Another effective pamphlet sheet, published for many decades in Chicago, compliments the AAWS beginner's sheet "Where Do I Go From Here?" and is: C-15 Making a Start in A.A.

Hope this helps!

Rick T., Illinois

_____________________________________________

From: jax760
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Subject: Re: The Chicago Pamphlets - early literature

I'm hoping that either Trysh or Rick Tompkins can provide the remainder of the pamphlets?????

- - - -

Jim Weaver wrote: here are links I found to a couple of the early Chicago pamphlets:

http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/impressions_of_aa%20Chicago%20group.htm

http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/why_we_were_chosen.htm
| 8993|8974|2013-01-25 10:25:55|J. Lobdell|Re: John Berryman and alcoholism among American authors|
See Upton Sinclair, THE CUP OF FURY [I think that's the title]. Good stuff on Jack London among others.

- - -

> From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)
>
> It's amazing how many famous American literary figures (poets, novelists, and playwrights) were alcoholics and came to unhappy ends as a result: well known alcoholics included Raymond Chandler, John Cheever, O. Henry, Tennessee Williams, Dorothy Parker, Edgar Allen Poe, Truman Capote, Jack Kerouac, William Faulkner, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, etc.
>
> And authors from other countries as well: Dylan Thomas, James Joyce, etc.
>
> What can you say? "There but for the grace of God .... "
| 8994|8994|2013-01-25 10:54:03|bigbookjoe|Cora Finch - Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung in 1926, not 1931|
AAHL message 5564 cites what is now a Japanese language cosmetics page for Cora Finch's article on Rowland Hazard and Carl Jung:

Cora Finch, Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, a New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote http://www.stellarfire.org/ [THIS IS THE LINK THAT DOES NOT WORK]

Where can we go now to find Cora's article?

- - - -

From the moderator: this article on Rowland Hazard and Carl Jung (and some further research notes from Cora Finch) are now posted on the Hindsfoot website at:

http://hindsfoot.org/jungstel.pdf

and

http://hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf

- - - -

The Hindsfoot site further notes ( http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html ) that:

The story of how the AA movement was begun, starts with a wealthy alcoholic named Rowland Hazard (1881-1945) who traveled to Zurich in 1926 and became a patient of the famous Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung. Jung finally told Rowland that the only way alcoholics of his sort could stop drinking was to immerse themselves in the spiritual life. But like a typical alcoholic, Rowland ignored his advice, and had to go through seven more years of misery (his drinking nearly killed him on his hunting trip to Afica later on) before he was willing to seek a spiritual answer.

Richard M. Dubiel -- The older AA literature said that Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung for extensive analysis in 1931. But then AA historian Richard M. Dubiel, in his book The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004), showed from a detailed analysis of correspondence and financial records in the Hazard family papers that there was no time in Rowland Hazard's busy schedule during 1931 in which he could have spent an extensive period in Switzerland undergoing treatment by Carl Jung. But if he could not have gone to Jung in that year -- the date given in all the older AA literature -- then did he in fact undergo treatment by Jung at all? Was the whole story only a myth?

http://hindsfoot.org/kdub1.html

Subsequently two researchers, Finch and Bluhm, working completely independently, established that Rowland arrived in Zurich in May 1926 -- five years earlier -- and wrote back to his family about how well his sessions with Jung were progressing. It was only the date that was wrong, not the fundamental fact of his undergoing treatment by Jung.

Cora Finch -- in 2006 wrote a long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism which not only established 1926 as the date of his treatment by Carl Jung, but also put this event securely in the context of the Hazard family's history. See Cora Finch, "Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, a New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote."

http://hindsfoot.org/jungstel.pdf

Also see Cora Finch, "Additional Notes to Stellar Fire," including
1. Remarks from Dr. Jung
2. Correspondence with Bill Wilson
3. Loose Ends
4. About William James

http://hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf

Amy Colwell Bluhm Ph.D. -- working totally independently, discovered the very same letters in the Hazard family papers and published her article "Verification of C.G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006. The correct date for Rowland's treatment by Jung -- 1926 -- and the way this encounter with the great psychiatrist fit into the story of his life was now established beyond a reasonable doubt.
| 8995|8976|2013-01-25 11:04:49|Charles Knapp|Re: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School|
Using Lois Remembers and Pass It On as a source, I believe I have pieced together the early chronology of the Tuesday night meeting in New York City. On page 197 in Lois Remembers, Lois has a time line of events and where I got most of the actual dates. I have added the day of the week for clarity.

Fall 1935 - Started holding weekly meeting on Tuesday night at Bill and Lois' home on Clinton Street

[Wednesday] April 26, 1939 -- The day after the We The People radio show, Bill and Lois leave Clinton Street for good.

[Tuesday] May 16, 1939 -- Tuesday meeting is moved to Bert's tailor shop on Fifty Ave

[Tuesday] June 6, 1939 -- AA's meet at an apartment on72nd Street, which is lent to Bill and Lois by friend

[Tuesday] August 1, 1939 -- Meeting is moved to Bert's larger tailoring work loft on the West Side

[Tuesday] September 5, 1939 -- Tuesday meeting finds a new meeting place in a parlor in Steinway Hall

[Tuesday] June 24, 1940 -- The meeting is moved to the 24th Street Club at 334� West 24th Street

According to Lois, there was a large meeting held at Hank's in Montclair NJ on [Sunday] March 13, 1938 -- almost a year before Bill and Lois moved out of their Clinton Street home. One strange notation In Lois Remembers is on [Sunday] April 10, 1938 she states there were 18 at weekly meeting at Clinton Street.

Not sure if this was a typo and she meant to give a date that was on a Tuesday or if there really was a meeting held on that Sunday night.

I have a question: Is the Steinway Hall mentioned above the one in the same that was built by the famous Steinway Piano Company?

Charles from Wisconsin

________________________________

>From: jax760
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:31 PM
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School
>
>The meeting at Burt's shop occurred in late 1939 but to my knowledge is undated. The first meeting of AA in a public place was at Steinway Hall in Queens NY in September of 1939 (9/6/39 I believe). The Manhattan Group had gotten space there when they began attending the Emmet Fox Lectures. The second location/meeting of AA in a public place occurred on October 22, 1939 at the Community Center in South Orange, NJ. I believe one event is documented in one of Bill's talks or the Grapevine and the other event documented in Lois' diary.
>
>After Bill was evicted in April 1939 the meetings moved to New Jersey. After Kathleen Parkhurst kicked Hank out the meeting (Sundays) bounced around NJ between South Orange and Green Pond, in NY over to Flatbush Brooklyn, Burt's apartment on 72nd St, Burt's shop.
>
>For the most part the Jerseyites stayed in NJ and the Manhattan Group stayed in NY. I believe you will find this info in one of Bill's talks to the Manhattan Group ........ might be called the Road from Clinton Street???? - Sorry on the road and don't have my LOH with me.
>
>God Bless,
>
>John B
>
>Warm Regards
>
>--- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, Arthur S wrote:
>>
>> Didn't the NYC members meet at Burt T's tailor shop in August 1939?
>>
>> - - - -
>>
>> From: Bob S
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013
>> Subject: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School
>>
>> Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. (Please read Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers, pages 216-219)
| 8996|8996|2013-01-25 11:07:30|john wikelius|Big Book 1st edition, 2nd printing with red cover?|
I was looking at Ebay and there is a first edition 2d printing 1941 in a red cover.  I understood that only the first of the first was encased in a red cover.  Were some done in red or is this a fake?
| 8997|8996|2013-01-26 10:00:30|Arthur S|Re: Big Book 1st edition, 2nd printing with red cover?|
John - my understanding is that the 2nd printing is the same dimensions as the 1st but with a blue cover - Arthur
| 8998|8998|2013-01-27 08:52:14|anon2012xx|The Awakened Spirit pamphlet|
Can anyone tell me more about this pamphlet called "The Awakened Spirit"?

Someone is selling copies of it on eBay and claiming that it is an old pamphlet sold by some of the AA groups during the early days:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Awakened-Spirit-by-John-M-C-Alcoholics-Anonymous-1950s-1960s-booklet-AA-/110996489150?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible&hash=item19d7e803be&nma=true&si=xPyU7xubBu7rL0%252FUEEFdU3SPX7M%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Awakened-Spirit-reprint-Alcoholics-Anonymous-publication-/160920922804?nma=true&si=xPyU7xubBu7rL0%252FUEEFdU3SPX7M%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

==============================================
The Awakened Spirit reprint Alcoholics Anonymous publication

This is a new reprint of the original pamphlet. You can see the original one on eBay at this time.

The booklet was written by the late John M. C. who came into AA back in the 1940s. He discusses different topics relating to Alcoholics Anonymous. The original pamphlet appeared to be good enough that different Central Offices around the US were actually publishing this for members of surrounding groups. I have had pamphlets from both Chicago and Cleveland areas.

These books are 50 pages long, made of sturdy card stock, and bound with a comb binding. A few of us have gotten together to publish some reprints of AA related publications. We have a few extra copies and we are listing them at printing cost, ebay listing & final value fees, and shipping cost. The printing cost includes paper, ink, printing, binding supplies and binder. Shipping includes padded envelope and postage fee plus delivery conformation.

These are not for sale for profit nor are they intended for resale. We are hoping a few AAers might wish to obtain copies of some of these publications for personal, historical use."
==============================================

==============================================
INDEX
Twenty Four Hours At A Time ... Page 3
Growing Up ... Page 6
Humility ... Page 12
Simplicity in Action ... Page 15
Fear Can Be Overcome ... Page 21
Christian Personality ... Page 30
Understanding Prayer ... Page 41
==============================================

One copy of the pamphlet says that it was published by:

CHICAGO METROPOLITAN A.A. GROUP
205 W. Wacker Drive
Chicago, Ill. 60606
FI 6-1475
| 8999|8999|2013-01-27 09:14:26|elginsv|Cook Forest AA Conferences|
Would anyone have information on past Cook Forest AA Conferences, specifically speakers and the year they spoke?

I would like to write a history of the origins of this conference, going back to when it was first started.

- - - -

From the moderator: Cook Forest State Park is located near Cooksburg and Leeper, Pennsylvania. This is in northwestern Pennsylvania, on the edge of the Allegheny National Forest, about 15 miles north of Interstate 80.
| 9000|9000|2013-01-27 09:15:27|schaberg43|Janet Blair Relatve?|
At last year's Archive Convention in Florida, one of the local areas
donated several letters to GSO Archive both to and from Janet Blair
about the editing of the Big Book.

I have been told that these letters had been donated to the local
committee by Janet Blair's granddaughter (or some other relative of
hers).

I would very much like to contact this relative and interview her for
more details on Janet Blair.

Does anyone know how I might go about making that contact?

Best,

Old Bill
| 9001|7316|2013-01-27 09:16:43|aarickm|Chuck Chamberlain|
Did Chuck Chamberlain suffer from strokes during the last 10 years of his life? Seems I heard Clancy talk about this. Still amazing man. Thanks
| 9002|8976|2013-01-27 09:47:04|John Moore|Re: early New York AA meetings|
Charles' timeline fits with information I received from Gene Edmiston, a
home group member of mine while I lived in California 1971-1979. Gene got
sober in NYC on July 4th weekend 1939. Gene told me of attending meetings
at Bill and Lois' apartment. It could not have been the Clinton St
apartment but his sponsor must have brought him to the apartment on 72nd St
which a friend had loaned the apt to Bill and Lois.

Here is a portion from Gene's talk, transcribed years ago ...

=============================================
"...When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill
Wilson, that had better than two years� sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst
had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around
New York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren�t meetings. It was
just gatherings, we�d get together, Bill would lead, and we�d talk back and
forth to Bill.

I�ll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don�t mind. See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. These boys took me in, and they talked about (an occasion) when they had made a call on a certain fellow, and then one of them had to leave. The other one asked, �Would you *pray* for this Brother?�, just like Methodists, Baptists, or anyone else steeped in religion (might say).

Well, it happened a few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New
York, including Bill, because they weren�t affiliated with a church. But
some of the other boys were going to Protestant Churches, the Catholic
Church, and others, two or three of them.

I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn�t be over two or three
of us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men
would come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything. But they
weren�t stressing their experience of drinking.

They weren�t getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying
"The Lord�s Prayer" and �Sermon on the Mount� by Emmett Fox. We used
�Sermon on the Mount� for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That�s
where they got the idea for the formation of our Program.

And the reason they didn�t bring Jesus Christ into the Program is, they wanted it to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the
principles that we are practicing in AA. But we don�t say �Christ� in
it. They wanted everyone who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he wouldn�t feel comfortable, don�t you see? And they got that idea out of �Sermon on the Mount�.
=============================================

John M
Burlington Vermont

______________________________________________

On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:14 PM, Charles Knapp wrote:

> Using Lois Remembers and Pass It On as a source, I believe I have pieced
> together the early chronology of the Tuesday night meeting in New York
> City. On page 197 in Lois Remembers, Lois has a time line of events and
> where I got most of the actual dates. I have added the day of the week for
> clarity.
>
> Fall 1935 - Started holding weekly meeting on Tuesday night at Bill and
> Lois' home on Clinton Street
>
> [Wednesday] April 26, 1939 -- The day after the We The People radio show,
> Bill and Lois leave Clinton Street for good.
>
> [Tuesday] May 16, 1939 -- Tuesday meeting is moved to Bert's tailor shop
> on Fifty Ave
>
> [Tuesday] June 6, 1939 -- AA's meet at an apartment on72nd Street, which
> is lent to Bill and Lois by friend
>
> [Tuesday] August 1, 1939 -- Meeting is moved to Bert's larger tailoring
> work loft on the West Side
>
> [Tuesday] September 5, 1939 -- Tuesday meeting finds a new meeting place
> in a parlor in Steinway Hall
>
> [Tuesday] June 24, 1940 -- The meeting is moved to the 24th Street Club at
> 334� West 24th Street
>
> According to Lois, there was a large meeting held at Hank's in Montclair
> NJ on [Sunday] March 13, 1938 -- almost a year before Bill and Lois moved
> out of their Clinton Street home. One strange notation In Lois Remembers is
> on [Sunday] April 10, 1938 she states there were 18 at weekly meeting at
> Clinton Street.
>
> Not sure if this was a typo and she meant to give a date that was on a
> Tuesday or if there really was a meeting held on that Sunday night.
>
> I have a question: Is the Steinway Hall mentioned above the one in the
> same that was built by the famous Steinway Piano Company?
>
> Charles from Wisconsin
| 9003|9003|2013-01-27 09:51:26|Tom Hickcox|Alcoholics Anonymous text changes|
On page 127 of the first edition, they mention 17 alcoholics being
released by "a certain state institution" in New Jersey.

First printing says 4 or 5 were released, and 17 is the number in the
5^th thru the 13^th printings that I have access to.

Did they leave the number at 17 until the second edition or did they
change it earlier?

The same paragraph in the second and subsequent editions is more general and doesn't specify a specific number of patients.

Tommy H in Danville

- - - -

From the moderator Glenn C: the list of Changes to the First Edition of The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258
is very thorough and detailed, but does not seem to answer this question.
| 9004|8996|2013-01-27 09:53:04|Tom Hickcox|Re: Big Book 1st edition, 2nd printing with red cover?|
There is in the A.A.H.L. archives a list of the changes made between the various printings of the First Edition. I think it is message #2258.

According to my memory, a number of the early printings had different
colored boards within the printing. You might consider this hearsay,
but I don't think I am far off.

Tommy H

- - - -

From the moderator Glenn C: yes, the best and most complete list which I know of, of the changes made in various printings of the First Edition, is at:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258
| 9005|8996|2013-01-27 09:54:05|David Lester|Re: Big Book 1st edition, 2nd printing with red cover?|
My understanding is there was in fact some of the red cloth from the first printing left over and to save money they used the rest of the cover material on the first few copies of the second printing making that a VERY rare book to get ones hands on. More rare than the first printing, because there were considerably less of them available.

Guy 4 God
David A Lester
| 9006|8976|2013-01-27 09:56:01|jax760|Re: early New York AA meetings|
The meeting held on March 13, 1938 was what I would characterize as the first business meeting of what would become The Alcoholic Foundation. This was a meeting with the Rockefeller men and the key people of the fellowship to discuss JDR's pending contribution and how to proceed from there!

God Bless,

John B.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Charles Knapp wrote:
>
> Using Lois Remembers and Pass It On as a source, I believe I have pieced together the early chronology of the Tuesday night meeting in New York City. On page 197 in Lois Remembers, Lois has a time line of events and where I got most of the actual dates. I have added the day of the week for clarity.
>
> Fall 1935 - Started holding weekly meeting on Tuesday night at Bill and Lois' home on Clinton Street
>
> [Wednesday] April 26, 1939 -- The day after the We The People radio show, Bill and Lois leave Clinton Street for good.
>
> [Tuesday] May 16, 1939 -- Tuesday meeting is moved to Bert's tailor shop on Fifty Ave
>
> [Tuesday] June 6, 1939 -- AA's meet at an apartment on72nd Street, which is lent to Bill and Lois by friend
>
> [Tuesday] August 1, 1939 -- Meeting is moved to Bert's larger tailoring work loft on the West Side
>
> [Tuesday] September 5, 1939 -- Tuesday meeting finds a new meeting place in a parlor in Steinway Hall
>
> [Tuesday] June 24, 1940 -- The meeting is moved to the 24th Street Club at 334½ West 24th Street
>
> According to Lois, there was a large meeting held at Hank's in Montclair NJ on [Sunday] March 13, 1938 -- almost a year before Bill and Lois moved out of their Clinton Street home. One strange notation In Lois Remembers is on [Sunday] April 10, 1938 she states there were 18 at weekly meeting at Clinton Street.
>
> Not sure if this was a typo and she meant to give a date that was on a Tuesday or if there really was a meeting held on that Sunday night.
>
> I have a question: Is the Steinway Hall mentioned above the one in the same that was built by the famous Steinway Piano Company?
>
> Charles from Wisconsin
>
> ________________________________
>
> >From: jax760
> >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:31 PM
> >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School
> >
> >The meeting at Burt's shop occurred in late 1939 but to my knowledge is undated. The first meeting of AA in a public place was at Steinway Hall in Queens NY in September of 1939 (9/6/39 I believe). The Manhattan Group had gotten space there when they began attending the Emmet Fox Lectures. The second location/meeting of AA in a public place occurred on October 22, 1939 at the Community Center in South Orange, NJ. I believe one event is documented in one of Bill's talks or the Grapevine and the other event documented in Lois' diary.
> >
> >After Bill was evicted in April 1939 the meetings moved to New Jersey. After Kathleen Parkhurst kicked Hank out the meeting (Sundays) bounced around NJ between South Orange and Green Pond, in NY over to Flatbush Brooklyn, Burt's apartment on 72nd St, Burt's shop.
> >
> >For the most part the Jerseyites stayed in NJ and the Manhattan Group stayed in NY. I believe you will find this info in one of Bill's talks to the Manhattan Group ........ might be called the Road from Clinton Street???? - Sorry on the road and don't have my LOH with me.
> >
> >God Bless,
> >
> >John B
> >
> >Warm Regards
> >
> >--- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, Arthur S wrote:
> >>
> >> Didn't the NYC members meet at Burt T's tailor shop in August 1939?
> >>
> >> - - - -
> >>
> >> From: Bob S
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013
> >> Subject: Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home - King School
> >>
> >> Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. (Please read Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers, pages 216-219)
>
| 9007|8991|2013-01-27 09:57:01|Shakey Mike|Re: All the past AAHistoryLovers messages for archiving|
It would be to the benefit of long term archival storage to use a gold archival cd that costs more but will last much much longer. Keep a copy on site at your archives and one offsite in a safety deposit box ,for instance, in case of fire.
Yours in service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2013, at 4:36 PM, Glenn Chesnut wrote:

> CLICK HERE to go to a webpage where all the past AAHL messages from 2002 to 2012
> can be read and/or downloaded:
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html
>
> Our hope is that the major AA archives all around the world will download these
> files and store them on a CD disk or some other permanent storage device, to
> help make sure that later centuries will still be able to read and use this
> material.
>
> 18.80 Mbytes of MS Word files (.docx)
> 30.45 Mbytes of text files (.txt)
> 97.98 Mbytes of Microsoft Access database files (.mdb)
> 147.23 Mbytes TOTAL
>
> (a regular CD disk holds 700 Mbytes, so all three sets of files can be stored on
> a single disk with room to spare)
>
> - - - -
>
> A.A. HISTORY LOVERS
> The leading international webgroup for the study
> of Alcoholics Anonymous history and archives
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html
>
> The collected messages of the AAHistoryLovers forms one of the largest single
> bodies of good AA historical material gathered in one place, an impressive
> accomplishment carried out by a number of the world's best AA historians. For
> the sake of future generations, all the messages from the group's first eleven
> years have now been put into computer files which can be either downloaded or
> read online. They are provided here in the form of Microsoft Word files (DOCX),
> text files (TXT), and Microsoft Access database files (MDB).
>
> Here at the beginning of 2013 we are getting close to the end of the line, in
> terms of people who knew the original founders of AA at first hand. In fact, the
> AAHL was started in large part as a last-ditch effort to glean as much
> information as possible from these people while we could still sit at their feet
> and listen to them talk, and ask questions. The next generation will be forced
> to rely solely on documents and audio recordings.
>
> - - - -
>
> Our present work on
> archiving all this material
>
> A program called PG Offline was used to download all of the first eleven years of AAHistoryLovers messages, from 2002 to 2012. They were downloaded in tabular form as Microsoft Access data files. Mail merge was then used to transfer this tabular data onto continuous word processor files, producing eleven preliminary documents, one per year, each one around a thousand or so pages long.
>
> Unfortunately, these messages were still full of the kind of web page coding used for HTML files and other similar online documents, to such a point that many sections were nearly totally unreadable. So another program, called Detagger, then had to be used to strip all of this HTML coding out of the messages.
>
> This detagged version is available here for either downloading or reading online, either in the form of MS Word documents or .txt text files. Almost all modern word processor programs will be able to read at least one of these file formats:
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html
>
> These documents are still extremely lengthy, and sometimes have the lines broken up in awkward ways. This is the result of literally tens of thousands of extraneous line breaks, which will have to be removed by hand. We are leaving this clean-up job to a later generation. Once this has been done, these documents should be only about half as long in terms of number of pages, and far easier to read. The important thing however is that they have now been preserved for posterity in a form that is perfectly readable and can be used by researchers even as is.
>
> I earnestly hope that the major AA archives all around the world will download these files and store them on a CD disk or some other permanent storage device, to help make sure that later centuries will still be able to read and use this material.
>
> Glenn C., moderator of the AAHL
> January 21, 2013
| 9008|9008|2013-01-27 10:33:30|Glenn Chesnut|Stepping Stones seeks Executive Director|
Stepping Stones Foundation
The Historic Home of Bill and Lois Wilson
A National Historic Landmark

http://www.steppingstones.org/ED.pdf

January 15, 2013

Dear Friends:

After eight years of service, Annah Perch will step down as Executive Director of the Stepping Stones Foundation in March 2013. Annah's accomplishments enhanced the historic home and site, helped secure Stepping Stones' future, and created many possibilities for the organization to continue to grow and serve. During her tenure, the historic house received extensive repairs utilizing historic preservation standards, the Welcome Center was planned and constructed, and the preservation of the Wilson's archives was undertaken. Annah also stewarded the federal application that resulted in Stepping Stones' designation as a National Historic Landmark.

I know that you join me and the Board of Trustees in wishing Annah every success and happiness in all her future endeavors.

The Board is now engaged in a search to identify qualified candidates for the position of Executive Director. As long-time friends and supporters of Stepping Stones, you are a great resource to us and we ask that you assist us in getting the word out about this exciting opportunity. I have included the job description in this email, and ask that you forward it to anyone you deem appropriate.

The job description is posted on LINKEDIN, located in the Jobs section of the Linkedin.com website, under Executive Director Stepping Stones Foundation - Greater New York City Area Job#4598333.

To be considered for this position, applicants may apply on
Linkedin.com/jobs, or send a resume directly to:

steppingstonesapplication@gmail.com
(steppingstonesapplication at gmail.com)

Thank you for your continued interest and support of Stepping Stones.

Sincerely,
Jim Moogan
President, Board of Trustees
Stepping Stones Foundation, Inc.

===============================================
Job Description
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
Stepping Stones Foundation

Position Summary

The Executive Director Position is responsible for the operation,
management and fundraising of the Stepping Stones Foundation (SSF) located in
the Town of Bedford, New York.


Stepping Stones Foundation

The Stepping Stones Foundation strives to contribute to the understanding
of alcoholism and its effects on family and society. Its mission is to maintain,
operate and preserve Stepping Stones as a living museum for tours and special
events. A National Historic Landmark, Stepping Stones was the home of Lois and
Bill Wilson, co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. The Foundation has an
operational mandate to preserve its historical archives for members of AA,
Al-Anon, and those interested in alcoholism, and providing greater access to
scholars and researchers. In addition, it develops, communicates and produces
educational programming to bring the story of Bill and Lois Wilson to the
public.

Position Areas of Responsibility

The Executive Director manages the day-to-day and long-term operation of
the SSF.The position works with the Board of Trustees, its members and
committees to develop and implement the foundation's vision and strategic plans.
The Executive Director is also responsible for managing financial resources in
order to sustain long-term viability of the organization including sustainable
fundraising.
* Staff Leadership and Management: Manages staff employees and volunteers
including hiring, supervision, performance management, assessment and annual
salary treatment recommendations. Manages and recruits consultants as needed
with board approval. Interfaces with accountant and legal support.
* Operations Management: Ensures effective and improving operations and high
quality visitor and program participant experience. Manages maintenance and
security of physical assets. Manages archives and historic assets. Oversees key
SSF initiatives. Develops and monitors annual budget and business plan.
* Program Development and Management: Develops, implements and supervises
programs and services that are consistent with the SSF mission and strategic
plan.
* Fund Development, Grant Oversight and Fiscal Management: Develops and manages
the fundraising and financial strategies of the SSF.
* Communications and Community Relations: Develops and maintains effective
relationships and acts as spokesperson and liaison to all communities of
interest. Manages public relations and coverage nationally and locally.
Supervises writing, editing and publishing of the SSF newsletter.
Scale of Operations

Stepping Stones operates with a full time executive director, half time
administrative assistant, part time welcome center attendants, housekeeper, and
maintenance assistant.

The annual operations budget is approximately $340,000, in addition to an
historic preservation/capital budget of approximately $125,000.


Stepping Stones targets baseline fundraising of $170,000 to increase annually
through business development efforts including gifts from individuals, grants,
and proceeds from a small gift shop to supplement income from an endowment that
funds about 75% of the operation.

A small cadre of volunteers provides guided tours, event support and outreach
activities.

The Board of Trustees currently has eight members, and meets quarterly. An
Advisory Council supplements the work of the board with expertise in specific
areas.

For more information, visit the Foundation website at www.steppingstones.org

Position Reporting Relationship and Interactions

The Executive Director reports directlyto the President of the Board. The
position may also take direction from and assist Committee heads and members
with respect to matters that the Board has assigned to their Committees. *
Seasoned Diplomacy Skills

* Able to collaborate and negotiate carefully and effectively.
* Open minded, patient and consultative.
* Accessible and gracious; shares information easily.
* Committed to collaborative partnerships.
* Outstanding interpersonal skills; "a people person."
* Strong ability to balance and negotiate among opposing viewpoints within and
outside the organization.
* Works effectively with a wide variety of people at all levels.
* Strong Management Skills and Executive Maturity
* Demonstrated ability to manage initiatives from start to completion; strong
bias for considered action.
* Able to motivate, align efforts, set goals, delegate and monitor effectively.
* Able to develop a sense of team spirit and maintain an environment where
mutual respect, collegiality and diversity are valued.
* Skilled at building consensus and galvanizing various stakeholders around a
common cause.
* Strong listening skills; able to bend when appropriate and yet be firm and
decisive when necessary.
* Ability to manage and prioritize multiple activities and responsibilities.
* Strong problem solving skills.
* Excellent organizational skills.
* Exhibits good judgment in all situations
* Strong Strategic Skills and Abilities
* Seasoned ability to translate stakeholder input and opportunity into a clear
vision, strategy and plan of action consistent with the SSF mission.
* Broad Communication Skills and Abilities
* Excellent oral and written skills.
* Strong public presence and energy.
* Able to communicate clearly and simply to all levels of stakeholders.
* Demonstrated fundraising abilities.
* Highly ethical, of the utmost integrity.
* Strong preservation ethic; personal interest in history and tradition
* Strong research abilities.
* Demonstrates a passion and commitment to the 12 Step field and Stepping
Stones Foundation mission, values, goals and objectives.
Education and Experience
* Ten or more years of progressive non-profit or related management experience.
* Significant experience raising funds from a variety of sources especially
major donors, corporations, government grants and foundations.
* Experience in web site management and social media strategies and
implementations.
* Background in property management and construction management preferred.
* Academic training in museum science or historic preservation preferred.
* Strong knowledge and in-depth familiarity with the Twelve Step movement.
To be considered for this position, please send your resume via email to:
steppingstonesapplication@gmail.com
===============================================

Stepping Stones, The Historic Home of Bill and Lois Wilson, 62 Oak Road, Katonah, NY 10536
| 9009|9009|2013-01-27 10:37:06|Dudley Dobinson|Red 2nd printing|
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alcoholics-Anonymous-Big-Book-1st-edition-2nd-printing-1941-RED-Hardcover-no-DJ-/230915996952?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible&hash=item35c3aa7d18

Hi John

The above link is for a second printing with a red cover. The description insists that it has not been rebound see listing for more details. My own copy of the second printing had a blue cover. Red covers surface occasionally. The story is that some covers were left over from the first printing and used. In the twelve years I have been looking at first edition Big Books, the red covers surface very rarely and there is always the doubt as to rebinding. (Buyer beware).

The only exception to blue covers is the sixth printing of which some 60% had dark green covers and the remainder blue. But a green cover is considered rarer than a blue cover.

Dudley A recovered member in Birr,Ireland
| 9010|9010|2013-01-27 10:41:06|awuh1|Bill Wilson's second letter to Carl Jung|
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "corafinch" wrote:

=============================
> I don't think anyone has published a complete copy of the second letter Bill wrote to Jung. One of the Bill W. books (sorry, I cannot remember which one, but I'm thinking Raphael or Hartigan) actually says the second letter wasn't even mailed.
>
> One intriguing detail: when Michael Fordham visited Jung for the last time, a few weeks before Jung's death, he found poor Jung in an agitated state of mind. Jung said that he had always been misunderstood (a common concern he had in his final years) and then went on at some length about the foolishness of trying to induce spiritual insight with LSD. Fordham could not get him off the topic, and finally had to leave without really having the chance for a conversation.
>
> I hope it is true that Bill's letter was either never sent, or never read by Jung, because if it was it could have been the cause of Jung's distress.
=============================

I recently was given a copy of Bill's second letter to Carl Jung. I also received a copy of the response to the letter by Aniela Jaffe. She stated that Jung had read the letter and intended to answer but fell ill, and upon "feeling better he left for longer vacations".

With regard to Michael Fordham's account of his meeting with Jung. He stated it took place just a few days before Jung's death. Fordham stated that Jung began to talk about how LSD produces "abaissement du niveau mental" which brings the archetypes into consciousness. Fordham's account states that he had heard this dissertation from Jung before, so it seems unlikely that Bills letter, per se, was the cause of Jung's agitation.

Fascinating new detail regarding Bill's use of LSD can be found in Don Lattin's new book "Distilled Spirits".
| 9011|8974|2013-01-27 12:07:46|Jesper|Re: John Berryman and alcoholism among American authors|
From Jesper and Joe Monda

- - - -

From: Jesper
(kidblast10 at yahoo.dk)

Hi group

In that regard, I can also recommend Donald Newlove's book "Those drinking days".


Greetings,
Jesper

==========================================
Donald Newlove, Those Drinking Days: Myself and Other Writers (1981)

One of the most gifted novelists of our time-now over nine years sober-has here written a magnificent book, loving yet caustic, about the ravages of drink upon him and upon some of this century's other leading novelists and poets. Some time ago, while first sobering up, Donald Newglove was forcibly faced with peculiarities in himself and others which appeared to be universal in the writers whose lives and work became dominated with alcohol. As harsh with himself as with others whom he describes, Newlove creates in unforgettable prose the pictures of Hemingway, Faulkner, Wolfe, Fitzgerald, O'Neill, O'Hara, Malcolm Lowry, Tennessee Williams, John Berryman, Theodore Roethke, Edwin Arlington Robinson, among others. Especially moving is his portrayal of Robert Lowell's last years, put together from Newlove's personal observation and skillful quotations as the poet describes his own illness. Also included are a long, sympathetic but razor-edged review of the career of Jack Keraouc; a glittering portrait of English novelist Malcolm Lowry; and an affecting history of Dr. Samuel Johnson's drinking days from his own lips (by way of Boswell). "Dr. Johnson beat the bottle." Perhaps the most heartfelt moments in Those Drinking Days are of Newlove's own friends who died on Manhattan fire-escapes, in their workrooms, or like poet novelist Gil Orvitz fell dead on the street, buried by the city. Those Drinking Days, Donald Newlove's only book of nonfiction, is as magnetic as his novels, charged with power in its recreating of euphoric, destructive and eventually regenerating personal experiences. It is electric with life.

Book description taken from
http://www.amazon.com/Those-Drinking-Days-Myself-Writers/dp/0818002506
==========================================


From: Joe Monda
(josephmonda at yahoo.com)

Anyone interested in this theme, Alcohol and American literature, should look at Thomas Gilmore's book _Equivocal Spirits: Alcoholism and Drinking in Twentieth Century Literature_.

A impressive number of American novelists seem to have been afflicted.

==========================================
TABLE OF CONTENTS

One - The Place of Hallucinations in Under the Volcano
Two - Brideshead Revisited Sebastian's Alcoholism as a Spiritual Illness
Three - The Iceman Cometh and the Anatomy of Alcoholism
Four - Drinking and Society in the Fiction of John Cheever
Five - Allbee's Drinking Bellow's the Victim
Six - The Winding Road to Pat Hobby: Fitzgerald Confronts Alcoholism
Seven - John Berryman and Drinking from Jest to Sober Earnest
Eight - Jim, Jake, and Gordon: Alcohol and Comedy (on Kingsley Amis's Lucky Jim and Jake's Thing and George Orwell's Keep the Aspidistra Flying)
==========================================
| 9012|9010|2013-01-27 13:26:23|corafinch|Re: Bill Wilson's second letter to Carl Jung|
Fordham does say, in his account of his last meeting with Jung (in the book The Fenceless Field--Freud, Jung, Klein, edited by Roger Hobdell and Michael Fordham) that "a few days later he was dead." Biographers do not agree with this chronology, however. Ronald Hayman places Fordham's visit in the spring, before a precipitous decline in Jung's health which occurred in early May. The date of his death was June 6. Other biographers do not mention Fordham, but make it clear that Jung's condition in his last month was poorer than what Fordham describes at the time of his visit.

It would be nice to know more about the letters you describe. The part about feeling better and leaving on a longer vacation, if true, is interesting. He did make a short trip from his primary residence in Kusnacht to his tower in Bollingen, then back, in April. He did not leave the upper story of his house after May 6, and had only limited speech after a stroke on May 17.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "awuh1" wrote:
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "corafinch" wrote:
>
> =============================
> > I don't think anyone has published a complete copy of the second letter Bill wrote to Jung. One of the Bill W. books (sorry, I cannot remember which one, but I'm thinking Raphael or Hartigan) actually says the second letter wasn't even mailed.
> >
> > One intriguing detail: when Michael Fordham visited Jung for the last time, a few weeks before Jung's death, he found poor Jung in an agitated state of mind. Jung said that he had always been misunderstood (a common concern he had in his final years) and then went on at some length about the foolishness of trying to induce spiritual insight with LSD. Fordham could not get him off the topic, and finally had to leave without really having the chance for a conversation.
> >
> > I hope it is true that Bill's letter was either never sent, or never read by Jung, because if it was it could have been the cause of Jung's distress.
> =============================
>
> I recently was given a copy of Bill's second letter to Carl Jung. I also received a copy of the response to the letter by Aniela Jaffe. She stated that Jung had read the letter and intended to answer but fell ill, and upon "feeling better he left for longer vacations".
>
> With regard to Michael Fordham's account of his meeting with Jung. He stated it took place just a few days before Jung's death. Fordham stated that Jung began to talk about how LSD produces "abaissement du niveau mental" which brings the archetypes into consciousness. Fordham's account states that he had heard this dissertation from Jung before, so it seems unlikely that Bills letter, per se, was the cause of Jung's agitation.
>
> Fascinating new detail regarding Bill's use of LSD can be found in Don Lattin's new book "Distilled Spirits".
>
| 9013|9003|2013-01-27 13:26:39|johnweisllc|Re: Alcoholics Anonymous text changes|
I have a first edition, second printing, and it shows 17.




-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 27, 2013 12:51 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Alcoholics Anonymous text changes





On page 127 of the first edition, they mention 17 alcoholics being
released by "a certain state institution" in New Jersey.

First printing says 4 or 5 were released, and 17 is the number in the
5^th thru the 13^th printings that I have access to.

Did they leave the number at 17 until the second edition or did they
change it earlier?

The same paragraph in the second and subsequent editions is more general and doesn't specify a specific number of patients.

Tommy H in Danville

- - - -

From the moderator Glenn C: the list of Changes to the First Edition of The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258
is very thorough and detailed, but does not seem to answer this question.











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9014|9014|2013-02-03 17:52:34|Glenn Chesnut|Using the database files for the AAHL archives|
The collected messages of the AAHistoryLovers from 2002-2012 at
http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html
are given in three different file formats:

.docx files can be read by Microsoft Word and many other word processor programs.

.txt files can be opened and read by almost any word processor program in the world nowadays.

.mdb files can be read by the Microsoft Access database program.

What about that last set of files?

Jim Myers (from Winston-Salem, North Carolia) at the great AA history site Silkworth.net has asked me how can he get access to the set of files with the mdb. file extension -- the third set of files at http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html

And Bruce C. (Muncie, Indiana), who has done so much for AA archives in Indiana, has asked me essentially the same thing. He first noted that he had converted the .docx files to Adobe Acrobat .pdf files, because he could do some things with those files in a quicker and easier manner. But then he asked: how could he open the .mbd version of the files I had available online, and what could he do with them, if anything, which he could not do with the .docx or the .txt or the .pdf versions?
_________________________________________

At this point I have to say that I am NOT a computer expert. But database files and database management programs are used by businesses to store personnel files, sales data, and other data of that sort in such a fashion that you can download only that data that fits certain specified criteria. Say for example, all employees older than 35 but younger than 55, who have blue eyes, have worked at least 5 years for this company, speak both English and Spanish, and have
never had Rocky Mountain spotted fever. Or whatever the criteria might be.

A hospital could download all the patients they had between 1990 and 1999 who had such-and-such a surgery where so-and-so was the doctor who performed that surgery. Or whatever other patient criteria the hospital might want to use.
_________________________________________

But my main reason for saving the AAHL files as database files was that a primary rule in both the natural sciences and in historical and archival research is: keep a copy of all your data in its original form, or as close to that as possible. You may need it at some point, to refer back to.

Along with the head of the computer science department at my Indiana University campus, I spent a long time trying to find some way of downloading the AAHL message files from the Yahoo group system in big batches (with no ads), without any success.

It's easy, by the way, to find programs to download all the pornographic photos from a porno site in large batches -- O tempora, O mores -- but not text messages.

Finally however, about a year ago, I discovered a program called PG Offline:

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/Offline-Browsers/PG-Offline.shtml

http://www.personalgroupware.com/

http://download.cnet.com/PG-Offline/3000-12945_4-10219234.html

The Yahoo messages are stored in some kind of database management system -- that's the way their little search box at the top of the AAHL Message Board works -- so apparently the best way of downloading them was in the form of a database, and the PG Offline program used the Microsoft Access database management program to download them into.
_________________________________________

The .mdb files which resulted give us the actual data which is stored for each message in the Yahoo group system's giant master computer. That's what I didn't want to lose. That's what I wanted to preserve for future generations to refer back to if necessary.

The older AAHL messages in particular have been saved by Yahoo with lots of formatting in many cases. The message has centered text for titles, italic and bold text, different colored texts, and different font styles and sizes.

To see how this comes out, copy out an individual message from the Access version and save it as a .txt file, and then put the following three lines at the top:

{!--OPENING HTML FILE--}{html}{head}{title}
AAHL Message #
{/title}{/head}{body link="red" vlink="red" alink="red"}

and then put the following line at the bottom:

{!--CLOSING HTML FILE--}{/body}{/html}

Then (in those four lines)
change every left curly bracket { into a left angle bracket <
and change every right curly bracket } into a right angle bracket >

Save that as a .txt file, close it, and then re-name it, so instead of having .txt at the end, it will have .html at the end. Then doubleclick on the filename in this new format, and it will open up in your web browser window with all the original formatting on it.

To see how this works, do this (for example) with messages 187 and 343.
_________________________________________

I used a program called Detagger
http://www.jafsoft.com/detagger/
to remove the HTML codes from the messages.

It only seemed to garble the text in one place that I could find. I corrected that part by hand. But I only spot checked by scrolling through the pages hurriedly. I did NOT read through all of the almost one thousand messages word by word, and compare them with the original, so I cannot guarantee that no major pieces of text were garbled or left out.

That's why I would appreciate it if AA archives would save the database .mdb files as well as the .docx and .txt files.

There's room on a CD disk for all three file formats, and it takes no more room in an archives storage place with the extra files on it.

On your own computer at home, of course, I can't see any reason to put the .mdb files on your hard drive, if you can neither read them nor use them.
_________________________________________

In the 25 years that I have been working with computers, I have seen many different file formats come and go. And also various kinds of storage devices (floppy disks, etc.) come and go.

One of the reasons why I put the AAHL messages into three different file formats was in the hopes that, fifty years from now let us say, there would still be computers somewhere which could read at least one of those file formats from the kind of storage device it was stored on. Will CD disks still be around, and will the hardware still be available to read them?

How long do YOU want the twelve step program to still be around as one of the greatest spiritual answers ever devised for some of the human race's greatest spiritual problems? Christianity has been around for 2,000 years and Judaism for over 3,000 years. Gautama Buddha lived around 2,400 years ago roughly. In Hinduism, the Rigveda was written 3,100 to 3,800 years ago, Vedanta goes back to around 2,200 years ago, and the Bhagavad Gita was written around 2,100 to 2,500 years ago. Taoism goes back maybe 1,800 years.

At the very least, AA archivists need to think longer than just three or four years into the future.
_________________________________________

Some of the major database management systems include:

Microsoft Office (if you get the whole package) includes such programs as:
Word = word processor
Exel = spreadsheet
PowerPoint = presentation program
MICROSOFT ACCESS = database manager

OPENOFFICE BASE (a free program which anybody can download):
If you want to use this database management program to read .mdb files, one way of doing it is to do the following: within MS-Windows, create an ODBC Data Source for your .mdb database, using the instructions at
http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/ms-access/ms-access.html
But what seems to be a simpler way of doing this is described at:
http://www.ehow.com/how_6810827_import-mdb-openoffice.html

ORACLE
To read .mdb files, one way is the following: within MS-Windows, create an ODBC Data Source for your .mdb database.
Oracle is described as "the world's leading database platform, and long the product of choice for mid- to large-sized companies requiring robust, reliable data management capabilities."

Corel WordPerfect Office (if you get the whole package) includes:
WordPerfect = word processor (one of the very best ones around)
Quattro Pro = spreadsheet
PARADOX = database manager (.pdx files)
but I haven't loaded Paradox into my computer, and I don't know whether Paradox can open and read .mdb files.
_________________________________________

ONE THING WHICH I THINK WOULD BE USEFUL TO EXPLORE. Do we have any computer experts in the AAHistoryLovers who would be willing to check this out? Or offer us a better alternative?

From what I can glean from the internet, SQL Server Express Edition would enable an AA archives to store all of the old AAHL messages in a database where we could do an intelligent search for specific words in the text of the messages.

By an intelligent search, I mean one which would allow for different verb tenses or spellings, or the appearance of two of the words you are searching for in the text with no more than a certain specified number of words in between (say four words, or ten words).

Here is what I have found so far:

Microsoft SQL Server is a relational database management system developed by Microsoft:

SQL Server Express Edition is a scaled down, free edition of SQL Server, which includes the core database engine. While there are no limitations on the number of databases or users supported, it is limited to using one processor, 1 GB memory and 4 GB database files (10 GB database files from SQL Server Express 2008 R2[44]). It is intended as a replacement for MSDE. Two additional editions provide a superset of features not in the original Express Edition. The first is SQL Server Express with Tools, which includes SQL Server Management Studio Basic. SQL Server Express with Advanced Services adds full-text search capability and reporting services.

SQL Server Full Text Search service is a specialized indexing and querying service for unstructured text stored in SQL Server databases. The full text search index can be created on any column with character based text data. It allows for words to be searched for in the text columns. While it can be performed with the SQL LIKE operator, using SQL Server Full Text Search service can be more efficient. Full allows for inexact matching of the source string, indicated by a Rank value which can range from 0 to 1000 - a higher rank means a more accurate match. It also allows linguistic matching ("inflectional search"), i.e., linguistic variants of a word (such as a verb in a different tense) will also be a match for a given word (but with a lower rank than an exact match).

Proximity searches are also supported, i.e., if the words searched for do not occur in the sequence they are specified in the query but are near each other, they are also considered a match.
_________________________________________

But I'm not a computer expert, I'm getting old, and I figure I have only a finite amount of time left in which, even if I'm still around, my mind will be sharp enough to do real research.

And at this point, I want to finish and publish my research on Catholics in early AA, do a book on Richmond Walker, and write a couple of other things. These are places where I believe that my previous research will enable me to make a few unique contributions.

On the other hand, there are lots of people in the world who are ten times (a hundred times, a thousand times) better than me on computers, so that it would seem like a waste of whatever time which I am going to have left on the planet Earth, for me to get any further involved in trying to set up the best possible database for the AAHistoryLovers archives.

Glenn
_________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjvsjjUHYUw

Enest Tubb and Red Foley 1951:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-l2GgSkA6U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiWzSF6Qm3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63nKcbGrWbo
| 9015|9014|2013-02-05 06:35:44|Jim M|Re: Using the database files for the AAHL archives|
Here is what I found so far. When clicking on a .mdb file on my computer, a table appears. One of the columns is titled "messages" and it contains the Hyper Text markup, meaning, the links are clickable to get to that information the link refers to. The problem with this is, there are over 8000 messages and this can take quite some time to decipher. For instants, see the following that I have copied from the column "message" from Glenn C. message # 8955, which clearly shows the message and the hyper text mark up.�Using this�method to get the files in this fashion of which there are over 8,000 messages and this would be quite an undertaken to say the least. But it does work.

The following is message# 8955 from the table that shows up on my computer and I copying the message from that column. On my computer it shows 3 tables of which the 2ND contains the message column. So far, this is the only way I see to extract the message from the .mdb file.

____________________________________________

Message# 8955 converted from .mdb to HTML as described above:
____________________________________________

When the question was raised -- what kind of medication did Dr. Tieboutprescribe for Bill Wilson's depression in the summer of 1944? -- many people rushed in to talk about alcoholics frequently being given barbiturates.
I think that people were missing the point. It is certainly true thatbarbiturates were frequently prescribed for alcoholics, but not for depression.When alcoholics quit drinking cold turkey, they frequently developed the shakes,extreme nervousness and anxiety, and could go into the d.t.'s and eventuallyconvulsions which would kill them, when their hearts would not start beatingagain in a regular rhythm.
So there were a whole bunch of different psychoactive drugs used to try to calmthem down and sedate them: paraldehyde, barbiturates (colloquially calledgoofballs), bromides, chloral hydrate (colloquially called a Mickey or MickeyFinn), codeine, sometimes even morphine, and of course, the infamous use ofBELLADONNA, not only at Towns Hospital in New York City, but also apparently inthe AA ward at Knickerbocker Hospital in New York City c. 1947-1952.
But please, unless you can find it explicitly stated in your source from thatperiod, that a particular medication was prescribed to treat the patient'sdepression, you cannot ASSUME that it was intended to treat what MIGHT HAVE beendepression.
See http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html about the middle of the page, right belowthe photograph of the flowers and berries of Atropa belladonna (deadlynightshade).
Bill Wilson's Vision of the Light at Towns Hospital on December 14, 1934http://hindsfoot.org/lightbillw.pdfGlenn F. Chesnut shows that it COULD NOT have been produced by takingbelladonna. That drug belongs to the general group called the "hallucinogens,"but it is classified as a deliriant, not a psychedelic or entheogen. That meansit does not fill you with a sense of ecstacy, bliss, or being in contact with agood and loving God or divine reality. If given too large a dose, it throws youinto a stumbling, delerious state; it contains the same poisonous alkaloids asdatura, which was one of the drugs used in Haitian mythology for turning peopleinto zombies.
Dr. Silkworth in Action c. 1947: A Nurse's Eyewitness Accounthttp://hindsfoot.org/bellasilkw.pdfIn an article in the Saturday Evening Post, a nurse describes the way Dr.Silkworth set up his alcoholism ward, and the medications that he actually used.
The Effects of Belladonna and Henbane: first hand accounts and detaileddescriptionshttp://hindsfoot.org/belladonna.pdfSome long accounts written by recreational drug users describing their ownexperiences when they took belladonna, plus a few notes on what it feels like totake henbane.
________________________________

There has to be an easier way to do this. One file at a time will take forever! However, this is the only solution I have found so far.

Yours in service,
Jim M.,
http://www.silkworth.net/
________________________________

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________________________________

NOTE FROM GLENN CHESNUT:

ONE THING WHICH I THINK WOULD BE USEFUL TO EXPLORE. Do we have any computer experts in the AAHistoryLovers who would be willing to check this out? Or offer us a better alternative?

From what I can glean from the internet, SQL Server Express Edition would enable an AA archives to store all of the old AAHL messages in a database where we could do an intelligent search for specific words in the text of the messages.

By an intelligent search, I mean one which would allow for different verb tenses or spellings, or the appearance of two of the words you are searching for in the text with no more than a certain specified number of words in between (say four words, or ten words).

Here is what I have found so far:

Microsoft SQL Server is a relational database management system developed by Microsoft:

SQL Server Express Edition is a scaled down, free edition of SQL Server, which includes the core database engine. While there are no limitations on the number of databases or users supported, it is limited to using one processor, 1 GB memory and 4 GB database files (10 GB database files from SQL Server Express 2008 R2[44]). It is intended as a replacement for MSDE. Two additional editions provide a superset of features not in the original Express Edition. The first is SQL Server Express with Tools, which includes SQL Server Management Studio Basic. SQL Server Express with Advanced Services adds full-text search capability and reporting services.

SQL Server Full Text Search service is a specialized indexing and querying service for unstructured text stored in SQL Server databases. The full text search index can be created on any column with character based text data. It allows for words to be searched for in the text columns. While it can be performed with the SQL LIKE operator, using SQL Server Full Text Search service can be more efficient. Full allows for inexact matching of the source string, indicated by a Rank value which can range from 0 to 1000 - a higher rank means a more accurate match. It also allows linguistic matching ("inflectional search"), i.e., linguistic variants of a word (such as a verb in a different tense) will also be a match for a given word (but with a lower rank than an exact match).

Proximity searches are also supported, i.e., if the words searched for do not occur in the sequence they are specified in the query but are near each other, they are also considered a match.
_________________________________________
| 9016|9014|2013-02-05 08:35:45|James Bliss|Re: Using the database files for the AAHL archives|
I am a little confused about the issue here. The messages have been brought down in three different formats:

1) text file
2) word file
3) Microsoft Access database in which the data is stored in tables with rows and columns.

Most of what is being described below for SQL Server can be done in a similar fashion with Microsoft Access. Some of those searches can take a while on older computers since they are 'scanning' the entire text field for the text.

Yes, SQL server does provide the functionality which Glenn describes below, including the reporting services which can be implemented to convert the html in the message fields into the original formatted text.

I have a lot of experience with SQL, SQL Server and some experience with Reporting Services. I am not quite sure what you would be looking for in regards to the capabilities of SQL Server. Bottom line, as I have always said to clients, you can do almost anything if you are willing to pay for it with computers.

It is also easy to import the Access database files into a SQL Server database (the 'Management console' application will do most of the work for you).

If you want me to look into specific functionality, let me know. Any functionality which you are looking for will take a little time to set up. But, virtually any 'data mining' techniques you are looking for can be performed with SQL Server and most can be performed with Microsoft Access.

To quickly describe the tables contained in each database:
1) Groups - just lists the AAHL group and some information
2) A table with ATT at the end. This would contain any attachments which had been posted with messages. Since the AAHL group does not allow attachments to messages this table is empty and I will not describe the columns
3) The messages. This is the real 'guts' of what you are looking for. The 'columns' in this table (think excel spreadsheet with each row being an individual message and the columns containing various elements of information about that message:
a) YahooMessageID - the number Yahoo assigned to the message - ascending apparently with older messages being lower number and newer messages being newer numbers
b) From - the name of the person who posted the message (it may be a name or an email address)
c) FromEmail - this column appears to be empty
d) Subject and SubjectSrt appear to be the same data - the subject of the post to AAHL (can be used for selecting messages based on a subject, or group them by the subject)
e) RecDate - not sure if the is the received date or the recorded date - but I would speculate it is when the message was posted by the creator
f) Message - HTML formatted messsage including the 'carriage returns and line feeds' (this is the











>
____________________________________________

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:28:04 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Using the database files for the AAHL archives

Here is what I found so far. When clicking on a .mdb file on my computer, a table appears. One of the columns is titled "messages" and it contains the Hyper Text markup, meaning, the links are clickable to get to that information the link refers to. The problem with this is, there are over 8000 messages and this can take quite some time to decipher ....

There has to be an easier way to do this. One file at a time will take forever! However, this is the only solution I have found so far.

Yours in service,

Jim M.,
http://www.silkworth.net/

________________________________


NOTE FROM GLENN CHESNUT:

ONE THING WHICH I THINK WOULD BE USEFUL TO EXPLORE. Do we have any computer experts in the AAHistoryLovers who would be willing to check this out? Or offer us a better alternative?

From what I can glean from the internet, SQL Server Express Edition would enable an AA archives to store all of the old AAHL messages in a database where we could do an intelligent search for specific words in the text of the messages.

By an intelligent search, I mean one which would allow for different verb tenses or spellings, or the appearance of two of the words you are searching for in the text with no more than a certain specified number of words in between (say four words, or ten words).

Here is what I have found so far:

Microsoft SQL Server is a relational database management system developed by Microsoft:

SQL Server Express Edition is a scaled down, free edition of SQL Server, which includes the core database engine. While there are no limitations on the number of databases or users supported, it is limited to using one processor, 1 GB memory and 4 GB database files (10 GB database files from SQL Server Express 2008 R2[44]). It is intended as a replacement for MSDE. Two additional editions provide a superset of features not in the original Express Edition. The first is SQL Server Express with Tools, which includes SQL Server Management Studio Basic. SQL Server Express with Advanced Services adds full-text search capability and reporting services.

SQL Server Full Text Search service is a specialized indexing and querying service for unstructured text stored in SQL Server databases. The full text search index can be created on any column with character based text data. It allows for words to be searched for in the text columns. While it can be performed with the SQL LIKE operator, using SQL Server Full Text Search service can be more efficient. Full allows for inexact matching of the source string, indicated by a Rank value which can range from 0 to 1000 - a higher rank means a more accurate match. It also allows linguistic matching ("inflectional search"), i.e., linguistic variants of a word (such as a verb in a different tense) will also be a match for a given word (but with a lower rank than an exact match).

Proximity searches are also supported, i.e., if the words searched for do not occur in the sequence they are specified in the query but are near each other, they are also considered a match.
| 9017|9017|2013-02-05 09:51:23|Glenn Chesnut|The Rolling Stone story says sober for six and a half years|
In the stories in the first edition of the Big Book, Lloyd Tate's "The Rolling
Stone" (pp. 386-390) concludes with the words:

"I am now 50 years old .... It has been nearly six and a half years since I have
found this new life and I know as long as I do the few things that God requires
me to do, I never will take another drink."

The problem with this statement is that NOBODY in AA had six and a half years
sobriety at the time the Big Book first came out.

I am working from a copy of the 13th printing of the first edition of the Big
Book, which a member of the AAHistoryLovers kindly gave me (a gift I have
greatly appreciated and have been making good use of).

I would appreciate it if someone with a 1st printing of the first edition could
check and see if the "six and a half years" statement was present in that
printing. That is, does this problem go all the way back to the 1st printing?

The original research done in the AAHL (see message 84) says that: "Lloyd's date
of sobriety is uncertain. One source says it was February of 1937, another says
November 1937."

Messages 6640 and 8061 from John Barton on the other hand say Lloyd came into
the program in June 1937, using the Amos List at
http://hindsfoot.org/amoslist.html which says

Tate Lloyd -- Painter -- Length time dry months 8 -- Length drinking experience
years 15 -- age 5...

AAHL message 8353 says (based on Lloyd Tate's obituary) that he was born 12 Nov
1888, which means he would have turned fifty in the Fall of 1938, so that part
of the Big Book story checks out. That was in fact his age at the time he wrote
the story.

I can't find anything in a search of the AAHL messages (or any other AA history
site on the internet) which seems to have noticed the problem of the claim that
he had been sober for "six and a half years."

In my many years of proofreading the proof sheets for published books and
articles, well over 99 per cent of the typographical errors involve one word
only. So if this is merely a typographical error, then the phrase "It has been
nearly six and a half years since I have found this new life" was probably
supposed to say:

EITHER "one and a half years"

OR "six and a half months"

Which would fit the time frame better?
| 9018|9018|2013-02-06 08:21:24|B|Del Tryon (Delmor Jones?)|
Del being the guy that thought the big book was a racket and decided to withdraw his story. I read the story last night around the green large X's placed across the pages, and found it fascinating.

I am wondering if more information is known about Del T? I have found a Delmor Tryon, approx right age, with a gravesite in Massachusetts. married to Frances Collins. His birthdate 12 Jan 1895, died 18 Apr 1952. Trying to confirm through any information anyone might have.

Would love to know his thought process behind concluding the book was a racket, and why he submitted his story in the first place? Possibly thought stories were being written for archive purposes?

Any help, as always, is appreciated.

Blessings,

Brian
| 9019|9017|2013-02-06 08:36:58|Jeff Bruce|Re: The Rolling Stone story says sober for six and a half years|
From Jeff Bruce, John Barton, Brian Koch, Tommy Hickcox, aa061035, S Sommers, and planternva2000

- - - -

From: Jeff Bruce <aliasjb@gmail.com>
(aliasjb at gmail.com)

First printing, first edition says "it has been nearly a year and a half since I have found this new life..."

There are numerous similar examples of license by the editors, the most obvious being the change in the text's subtitle from "The Story of how more than 100...." to "The story of how many thousands..."

The same poorly thought out changes occur in the text itself, e.g., on p 113 speaking of the recovering husband, the current text says "He knows that thousands of men, much like himself, have recovered" (which makes no sense when there were fewer than 100 recovered at the time of the writing). First printing, first edition says "He knows that over a hundred men...."

- - - -

From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com>

First Printing says:

"It has been nearly a year and a half..."

This would also put his sobriety date in line with the Amos List, or so it would appear assuming his story was completed late 1938 with the other Akronites

Warm Regards,

John

- - - -

From: brian koch

Upon perusing my reproduction of the 1st printing of the 1st edition the story
does conclude with "nearly a year and a half..."

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox

My facsimile 1st Printing/1st Edition says "It has been nearly and year and a half . . ." as does my 5th Printing.

My 10th Printing, August 1946, says ". . . six and a half years . . ."

Perhaps fellow listers have some intervening printings and can point to when the change occurred more exactly.

Tommy H in Danville, Ky.

- - - -

From: "aa061035"

The Twelfth Printing, October, 1948 has the same words: "It has been nearly six and a half years since I have found this new life."

- - - -

From: S Sommers

I don't have a 1st printing of the first edition.

My (2003) 1st printing copy of Experience, Strength, and Hope, however, reads
"It has been nearly a year and a half since I have found this new life and I
know as long as I do the few things that God requires me to do, I never will
take another drink."

- - - -

From: "planternva2000"

For what it's worth, from page 139 of "Experience, Strength & Hope"
"It has been nearly a year and a half since I found this new life...."
| 9020|9018|2013-02-06 10:45:57|john wikelius|Stories which were NOT included in the first edition Big Book?|
Is there a resource for the stories that were NOT included in the first edition? Would enjoy reading them as well.

John Wikelius
Enterprise, Alabama
| 9021|9018|2013-02-06 10:48:51|brian koch|Re: Del Tryon (Delmor Jones?)|
answering my own posting. I found Delmar S (or S Delmar) Tryon in the Akron area. Passed on or about 4 March 1974. Guessing this is a better match, considering its shown as Delmar on the first 100 list. Should have a burial location soon. The obit is in the Akron Beacon. The other questions still apply tho.

Brian
| 9022|9022|2013-02-07 14:48:16|hdmozart|Alleged Article by George Vaillant|
Please help -

I believe I read an article by George Vaillant that investigated prison recidivism - the study determined that 90% did not return IF they continued participation in A.A. meetings - the article pointed out that the sample was too small to determine if this was the result of the individual working the steps or simply because the individual's attendance indicated a strong determination to stay sober - this was contrasted to 60% that did return to jail with little or no A.A. participation -

Can someone identify the article?

Thanks,
Larry Holbrook
| 9023|9018|2013-02-07 14:49:33|B|Re: Del Tryon (Delmor Jones?)|
Ex-Grain Dealer Delmar S. Tryon

Cuyahoga Falls-Delmar S. Tryon, 78, of 2508 Phelps Ave, died Sunday at Green Cross Hospital.
Mr. Tryon formerly owned Tryon Feed and Grain in Northampton and also stabled hourses adjacent to Ascot Park.
He was a 50-year member of Akron Lodge 85 F&AM, and was a member of American Legion Post 473, Copley.
He was an Army veteran of World War I.

He leaves his wife, Susanna; sons, Lt. Homer Lowery, the falls, Edward and Irvin Lowery, both of California; daughter, Mrs. Joanne Von Moos, Cuyahoga Falls; sister, Mrs. Millie Thevenet, Akron, Mrs. Hila Henderson and Mrs. May Beyea, both of Union Springs, NY, 12 grandchildren and three great-grandchildren.
Services will be at 1pm Wednesday at the Adams funeral home, where friends may call from 5 to 9pm, Tuesday.
Masonic services will be at 6:30pm Tuesday at the funeral home.
Burial will be in Mt. Peace Cemetery.

As Found in Akron Beacon, March 4th, 1974
Grave location, Sec 32, Lot 16, Grave #3

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, brian koch wrote:
>
> answering my own posting. I found Delmar S (or S Delmar) Tryon in the Akron area. Passed on or about 4 March 1974. Guessing this is a better match, considering its shown as Delmar on the first 100 list. Should have a burial location soon. The obit is in the Akron Beacon. The other questions still apply tho.
>
> Brian
>
| 9024|9024|2013-02-11 12:01:10|Lois Stevens|Amanda Northrup|
Good Afternoon, My name is Lois S.

In Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers on pg. 12 it says,

Although he had a much older foster sister, Amanda Northrup, of whom he was fond he grew up as an only child.

My question is if he had a sister, how did he grow up an only child and is there anything on how they became sister and brother?

I check the web sites for AAHL and all they said is he has an older foster sister and she attended his graduation.

Thank You!!!

- - - -

From the moderator Glenn C. -- all I can find online is

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/119

Dr. Bob "was the only child of Judge and Mrs. Walter Perrin Smith, who were influential in business and civic affairs. He had a much older foster sister, Amanda Northrup, of whom he was quite fond."

http://www.silkworth.net/whos_who/whos_whoaa.html

Amanda Northrup - Dr. Bob's older foster sister, history professor Hunter College New York City.
| 9025|9025|2013-02-11 12:01:59|Michael Margetis|Bill's talk at LeMoyne College, Syracuse, New York|
Hi all,

Does anyone know if I can obtain a transcript of the talk Bill gave at
LeMoyne College in April of 1954?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland
| 9026|9026|2013-02-11 12:03:17|jax760|A quote by Bill W. about ancient sources or principles?|
I am trying to find something I recall was written by Bill but coming up empty. In a talk or article Bill talks about the AA program/steps in the context of ancient sources or ancient principles .... "the common property of all mankind."

I am not referring to the 1946 Grapevine article introducing the traditions where Bill uses similar language as in "divine but ancient principles" -- this was something else.

If anyone has a searchable AA Comes of Age could they check for me ... or any other insight would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless

John B
| 9027|9022|2013-02-11 12:08:21|Sherry C. Hartsell|Re: Alleged Article by George Vaillant|
Vaillant George E. A 12-Year Follow-Up Of New York Narcotic Addicts. III: Some Social And Psychiatric Characteristics. Archives General Psychiatry 1966; 15:599-609.

Vaillant George E. Sociopathy As A Human Process. A Viewpoint. Archives of General Psychiatr. 1975;32.

As far back as '68 there were "Reports" circulated re recidivism and AA Participation. I was working within the prison system here in Texas at the time, the figures were a bit different as I recall, but made the same argument, that active participation in AA upon release and through five to seven post-release yrs made a tremendous difference in the recidivism numbers.

My own personal and professional experience -- though w/out actual numbers -- was similar. I continued to have contact with the populations over the next 30+ yrs from '68.

Sherry C. H.

- - - -

From: hdmozart
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013
Subject: Alleged Article by George Vaillant

Please help -

I believe I read an article by George Vaillant that investigated prison recidivism - the study determined that 90% did not return IF they continued participation in A.A. meetings - the article pointed out that the sample was too small to determine if this was the result of the individual working the steps or simply because the individual's attendance indicated a strong determination to stay sober - this was contrasted to 60% that did return to jail with little or no A.A. participation.

Can someone identify the article?

Thanks,
Larry Holbrook
| 9028|9028|2013-02-14 09:25:15|Dave|Dave B., Gratitude in Action, what book did Jean give him?|
In "Gratitude in Action," Dave Bancroft tells of a book given to him by his sister, Jean, that was "... about Alcoholics Anonymous," which led him to contact New York. Does anyone have any idea what that book could have been? Thanks.

Dave Nieland

- - - -

From the moderator Glenn C.

Since Jean showed him that book on or before 1944, from the description of its contents, it has to be the Big Book, doesn't it? What else could it have been at that time?

Big Book 4th edit. pages 193 ff., Gratitude in Action, "the story of Dave B., one of the founders of A.A. in Canada in 1944."

(p. 196) "Then I recalled a book given to me by my sister Jean about drunks as desperate as I was who had found a way to stop drinking. According to this book, these drunks had found a way to live like other human beings: to get up in the morning, go to work, and return home in the evening. This book was about Alcoholics Anonymous." He finally was able to contact A.A. in New York (this was presumably 1944) and talked with a woman named Bobbie. "I was very surprised when I got a copy of the Big Book in the mail the following day."

For more about Dave B., see

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3486

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/137

Gratitude in Action -- Dave Bancroft, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
(p. 193, 4th edition.)

Heading: "The Story of Dave B., one of the founders of A.A. in Canada in 1944."

Dave's date of sobriety was April 7, 1944. He was born on June 25, 1908, in Toronto, Canada, and spent his youth in Knowlton, Quebec. He married Dorothy Ford on September 1, 1929. They had three children and thirteen grandchildren.

In Montreal, just before World War II, a young physician interested in alcoholism, Dr. Travis Dancey, had tried to get Dave to read the Big Book while he was incarcerated in a mental institution. Dave, angry and rebellious, literally threw the Big Book at his would-be benefactor. Dr. Dancey was taken into the military service and when he returned in late 1944 and saw Dave, the latter was newly sober in A.A.

Dr. Dancey recalled that when he returned, Dave not only dragged him around to A.A. meetings, "but he had the effrontery to explain the spiritual principles of the program to me!" Dr. Dancey went on to become the first Class A. (nonalcoholic) trustee from Canada, serving from 1965-1974.

Dave was a tireless twelfth-stepper, who founded the first A.A. group in the Province of Quebec. He served as a Class B (alcoholic) Trustee from 1962 to 1964.

He died on December 9, 1984.
| 9029|9024|2013-02-14 10:03:26|gcb900|Re: Amanda Northrup|
http://alcoholicsanonymoushistory.blogspot.com/2012/09/amanda-c-northrop-dr-bobs-foster-sister.html
| 9030|9026|2013-02-14 10:09:22|royslev|Re: A quote by Bill W. about ancient sources or principles?|
I love to listen to Bill W's 1951 Dallas TX talk (not to be confused with his Ft Worth talk the same year) where he covers basically the same material in his "Three Legacies" talk (which is all over the internet) but much more "up close and personal."

In this Dallas talk he goes back to Ebby's original call on him in his kitchen and Bill's later "white light" or "hot flash" in Charles B. Towns Hospital.

That particular talk had a great effect on me in the way it made me appreciate how to approach a prospective alkie who might want to recover. Ebby used a style which is actually later recommended in Chapter 7 of our Big Book "Working With Others."

But relevant to your specific query, Bill recounts Ebby's delivery of the original "simple program," which Bill says is "essentially still at the heart of our AA program today" (1951 in Dallas was 17 years after 1934 in Bill's kitchen). Bill then finally pronounces the program as Ebby delivered it "age old spiritual principles, as old as the hills" (Bill's summation).

These "age old principles" as Ebby delivered the message to Bill "nothing new really" (Ebby's words) were (closely paraphrased) the following:

"You get honest with yourself about your drinking, your problem. You stop this living alone. You make an admission of your defects and share it with another human being, a confession. You go out and make restitution to those you had harmed. And Bill, I've learned a new way of giving, of helping people just for the sake of helping people, with no thought of recognition or compensation. And Bill, I know you're a little gun-shy about this God stuff; but I believe in God, God as I understand him. And it helped me and I think it would help you too, to pray to whatever God you believe in to help you go through this thing."

These are the "age old principles, as old as the hills" (Bill's words) which Ebby trasnmitted to Bill in his kitchen in November 1934.

Check out the recording, I believe it may be on www.xa-speakers.org and on other free websites.

Regards,
Roy L.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jax760" wrote:
>
> I am trying to find something I recall was written by Bill but coming up empty. In a talk or article Bill talks about the AA program/steps in the context of ancient sources or ancient principles .... "the common property of all mankind."
>
> I am not referring to the 1946 Grapevine article introducing the traditions where Bill uses similar language as in "divine but ancient principles" -- this was something else.
>
> If anyone has a searchable AA Comes of Age could they check for me ... or any other insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> God Bless
>
> John B
>
| 9031|9026|2013-02-14 10:20:57|Wesley Brauer|Re: A quote by Bill W. about ancient sources or principles?|
12 and 12, Step 5, p. 56:

"This practice of admitting one's defects to another person is, of course, very ancient. It has been validated in every century, and it characterizes the lives of all spiritually centered and truly religious people."

________________________________
From: jax760
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:49 AM
Subject: A quote by Bill W. about ancient sources or principles?

I am trying to find something I recall was written by Bill but coming up empty. In a talk or article Bill talks about the AA program/steps in the context of ancient sources or ancient principles .... "the common property of all mankind."

I am not referring to the 1946 Grapevine article introducing the traditions where Bill uses similar language as in "divine but ancient principles" -- this was something else.

If anyone has a searchable AA Comes of Age could they check for me ... or any other insight would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless

John B
| 9032|9026|2013-02-14 10:21:23|hdmozart|Re: A quote by Bill W. about ancient sources or principles?|
Unfortunately, I don't think I found what you were looking for - Here are the results of searches for the word 'mankind' and 'ancient' in some of our literature, including Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age

Hope this helps

Larry Holbrook
---------------------------------
Pass It On

Found mankind once & ancient twice

"I guess we got out of Stouffer's after about two hours, and then he invited me up to his room. And there he is, promoting me, and I'm very patient. He's got some papers from doctors
390 Chapter Twenty-Four / `PASS IT ON' . . . The story of
backing him up on the proposition. I didn't get out of that room until one o'clock in the morning. He's telling me about how right he's been over the years in all the different phases of A.A. Now, he's getting into the medical department. I'm doing the listening. He went back into ancient times and took some of his ideas from the ancient philosophers. He's telling me how when they invented the wheel, this took a great burden off mankind, and they didn't keep it to themselves. And we found out a way to stay sober here, and we didn't keep it to ourselves. Here we are in A.A. We found out we could stay sober, so we passed it along."


---------------------------------
As Bill Sees It

Ancient: 7, 164, 223, 296
Mankind: 166, 260


---------------------------------
Twelve & Twelve

No references to either mankind, nor ancient


---------------------------------
Alcoholics Comes of Age

Ancient

Sam's appearance before us was further evidence that many a chan­nel had been used by Providence to create Alcoholics Anonymous. And none had been more vitally needed than the one opened through Sam Shoemaker and his Oxford Group associates of a generation be­fore. The basic principles which the Oxford Groupers had taught were ancient and universal ones, the common property of mankind. Certain of the former O.G. attitudes and applications had proved un­suited to A.A.'s purpose, and Sam's own conviction about these lesser aspects of the Oxford Groups had later changed and become more like our A.A. views of today. But the important thing is this: the early A.A. got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of char­acter defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else. He will al­ways be found in our annals as the one whose inspired example and
40 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE

84 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
tional Christian Leadership Movement, where he met with a group of businessmen who were interested in bringing God into industry through the medium of breakfast clubs for prayer and planning. Philip thought that maybe he could introduce the breakfast club idea to Scotland, and he hoped that such a good work would loosen his fatal attachment to the bottle. At the very first session he met an old­time Philadelphia A.A., George R., who gave him A.A. right off the spiritual main line. The head of one of Scotland's most ancient clans sobered up on the spot. He took A.A. back to his native heath, and soon alcoholic Scots were drying up all the way from Glasgow ship chandlers to society folks in Edinburgh.

Alcoholics Anonymous will never have a professional therapeutic class. We have gained some understanding of the ancient words
THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 115
"Freely you have received, freely give." For our purpose, we have dis­covered that at the point of professionalism money and spirituality do not mix. We do not decry professionalism in other fields, but we accept the sober fact that it does not work for us. Every time we have tried to professionalize our Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same; our single purpose has been defeated.

As a society we must never become so vain as to suppose that we have been the authors and inventors of a new religion. We will humbly reflect that each of A.A. s principles, every one o f them, has been borrowed from ancient sources. We shall remember that we are
232 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
laymen, holding ourselves in readiness to co-operate with all men of good will, whatever their creed or nationality.'
Then, too, it would be a product of false pride to believe that Alco­holics Anonymous is a cure-all, even for alcoholism. Here we must remember our debt to the men of medicine. Here we must be friendly and, above all, open-minded toward every new development in the medical or psychiatric art that promises to be helpful to sick people. We should always be friendly to those in the fields of alcoholic re­search, rehabilitation, and education. We should endorse none espe­cially but hold ourselves in readiness to co-operate so far as we can with them all. Let us constantly remind ourselves that the experts in religion are the clergymen; that the practice of medicine is for physi­cians; and that we, the recovered alcoholics, are their assistants.


Mankind

Sam's appearance before us was further evidence that many a chan­nel had been used by Providence to create Alcoholics Anonymous. And none had been more vitally needed than the one opened through Sam Shoemaker and his Oxford Group associates of a generation be­fore. The basic principles which the Oxford Groupers had taught were ancient and universal ones, the common property of mankind. Certain of the former O.G. attitudes and applications had proved un­suited to A.A.'s purpose, and Sam's own conviction about these lesser aspects of the Oxford Groups had later changed and become more like our A.A. views of today. But the important thing is this: the early A.A. got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of char­acter defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else. He will al­ways be found in our annals as the one whose inspired example and
40 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE

As by some deep instinct, we have known from the very beginning that, no matter what the provocation, we must never publicly take sides, as A.A.'s, in any fight, even a worthy one. All history affords us the spectacle of striving nations and groups finally torn asunder be­cause they were designed for, or tempted into, controversy. Others fell apart because of sheer self-righteousness while trying to force upon the rest of mankind some millennium of their own specification. In our own times we have seen millions die in political and economic wars often spurred by religious and racial differences. We live in the immi­nent possibility of a fresh holocaust to determine how men shall be governed and how the products of nature and toil shall be divided
124 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
among them. That is the spiritual climate in which A.A. was born and by God's grace has flourished nevertheless.
Let us re-emphasize that this reluctance to fight one another or any­body else is not counted as some special virtue which makes us feel superior to other people. Nor does it mean that the members of Alco­holics Anonymous, now restored as citizens of the world, are going to back away from their individual responsibilities to act as they see the right upon issues of our time. But when it comes to A.A. as a whole, that is a different matter. As A.A.'s we do not enter into public contro­versy, because we know that our fellowship will perish if we do. We conceive the survival and spread of Alcoholics Anonymous to be something of greater importance than any weight we could collec­tively throw back of other causes. Recovery from alcoholism is life it­self to us, and we wish to preserve in full strength our means of sur­vival.

And it struck me, as a nonalcoholic, that A.A. was a way of life for me, too, and for countless others like me who had never sought escape in a bottle or in those other refuges to which men turn from the pressures of a materialistic world. The still-drinking alcoholic, as should be clear to all who observe mankind today, has no monopoly on unhappiness or on the feeling that life lacks purpose and fulfillment.
In all the years since that first meeting with Bill, wonderful years, when it has been my privilege to serve as a member and as Chairman of the General Service Board, I have never lost my initial awareness that A.A. is more than a fellowship for recovered alcoholics, that it is
276 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
indeed a way of life for all who have lost their way in a troubled world.

As a nonalcoholic and as a student of those great social movements from which we derive the best of our heritage today, I regard the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous as the outstanding spiritual phenomenon of our century. I see in the concept of living which is embodied in Alcoholics Anonymous a glorious hope for all of mankind. For the members of this fellowship are truly witnesses of the living
A FRIEND LOOKS AT ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 283
truth that man can live the life of the spirit and still function effectively in a materialistic world.
And so this first generation in the life of A.A. draws to a dose. It is rich in its faith, large in its numbers, and dedicated to its purpose. I am grateful that I have been privileged to observe its emergence in our society.
In now stepping aside as Chairman of AA. 's movement-wide service agency, I confess to only one regret. And that is that I did not have the skill or the gifts that would have enabled me to do more than the little I have tried to do to further the purposes of this great and enduring fellowship.

Historians may one day point to Alcoholics Anonymous as a society which did far more than achieve a considerable measure of success with alcoholism and its stigma; they may recognize Alcoholics Anonymous to have been a great venture in social pioneering which forged a new instrument for social action; a new therapy based on the kinship of common suffering; one having a vast potential for the myriad other ills of mankind.
301
| 9033|9024|2013-02-14 10:36:40|Charles Knapp|Re: Amanda Northrup|
Lois has a very good question. I had tried to figure this out myself. I found that Dr Bob's "foster sister" was Amanda Carolyn Northrop and was born June19, 1858 in town of Fairfield, in Franklin County, Vermont, and 75 miles West Northwest of St Johnsbury.

Her parents were Abraham & Rebekah (Potter) Northrop and they had the following children::
Ella A. Northrop b. Dec 28, 1848
Jane B. Northrop b. Mar 15, 1852
Octavius Potter Northrop b. Aug 14, 1855
Amanda Carolyn Northrop b. Jun 19, 1858
Abbie L. Northrop b. May 29, 1862

Amanda's father died Jul 28, 1864 when she was 6 years old. I find her name on the 1860, 1870, and 1880 U S Census and was listed as living with her mother and father or with her widowed mother. I never found her on any of the census of the Smith household.

Dr Bob's father, Walter Perrin Smith, was born November 4, 1841 and died October 16, 1919. His mother Susan Amanda Holbrook was born June 26, 1855 and died August 7 1942. Walter and Susan were married August 15, 1876. Robert Holbrook Smith, their only child, was born August 8, 1879.

I found that Amanda was 3 years younger that Dr Bob's mother and would have been 18 years old when his parents married. She was 21 years old when Dr Bob was born. I believe she could have only been considered a "foster daughter" for less than 3 years and then I believe she would have been legally an adult. Maybe the term "foster sister" was not meant to be figuratively but perhaps more a term of endearment. Bob might have looked up to her as if she were his older foster sister.

It is also possible Amanda was living with Susan Holbrook prior to her marriage to Walter Smith and she moved in after the wedding, but have found no real evidence of this.

I have not done the family trees for the Holbrook or Northrop families but I believe if I did I might find Amanda Northrop and Susan Holbrook were some sort of cousins.

There is no doubt she lived in St Johnsbury and lived with the Smiths. She taught at St Johnsbury Academy in 1883-84. She also attended church with Dr Bob's parents at the North Congressional Church. In 1885 she moves to New York and takes a teaching job but her name appears in the local paper several times stating she was visiting the Smiths.

Another strange thing I found was that all of Amanda's family are buried in Bradley Cemetery, Fairfield, Franklin County, Vermont except Amanda and her brother Octavius. Several generations of Northrops are buried there with the exception of these two. They are buried in Pleasant View Cemetery, Randolph, Orange County, Vermont some 95 miles away. Just found it odd.

Charles from Wisconsin
| 9034|9028|2013-02-14 10:38:04|J. Blair|Re: Dave B., Gratitude in Action, what book did Jean give him?|
In "Gratitude in Action," Dave Bancroft tells of a book given to him by his sister, Jean, that was "... about Alcoholics Anonymous," which led him to contact New York. Does anyone have any idea what that book could have been? Thanks.

In the audio tapes of Dave B. he states that his sister had given him a Copy of the Saturday Evening Post which contained the Jack Alexander article.

Dr. Dancy had given Dave a copy of the Big Book on one of his previous trips to dry out.

Jim Blair
| 9035|9018|2013-02-14 10:45:56|Robt Woodson|Re: Del Tryon (Delmor Jones?)|
Same cemetery as Dr. Bob and Anne ... if you want, or need, a photograph taken of the gravesite, presuming that he is�interred where they say in the paper,�I could easily�stop by there.

Woody in Akron
| 9036|9024|2013-02-14 15:59:58|brian koch|Re: Amanda Northrup|
Additional piece of information. Amanda's mother did not pass away until 15 Oct 1880, meaning Amanda was 22 when she passed. So I am sharing the opinion that she was a sister figure most likely, and there was no legal "foster child" status assigned. Just conjecture, but seems like sound thinking.

Blessings,

Brian
_________________________________________

From: cpknapp@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013
Subject: Re: Amanda Northrup

Lois has a very good question. I had tried to figure this out myself. I found that Dr Bob's "foster sister" was Amanda Carolyn Northrop and was born June19, 1858 in town of Fairfield, in Franklin County, Vermont, and 75 miles West Northwest of St Johnsbury.

Her parents were Abraham & Rebekah (Potter) Northrop and they had the following children::
Ella A. Northrop b. Dec 28, 1848
Jane B. Northrop b. Mar 15, 1852
Octavius Potter Northrop b. Aug 14, 1855
Amanda Carolyn Northrop b. Jun 19, 1858
Abbie L. Northrop b. May 29, 1862

Amanda's father died Jul 28, 1864 when she was 6 years old. I find her name on the 1860, 1870, and 1880 U S Census and was listed as living with her mother and father or with her widowed mother. I never found her on any of the census of the Smith household.

Dr Bob's father, Walter Perrin Smith, was born November 4, 1841 and died October 16, 1919. His mother Susan Amanda Holbrook was born June 26, 1855 and died August 7 1942. Walter and Susan were married August 15, 1876. Robert Holbrook Smith, their only child, was born August 8, 1879.

I found that Amanda was 3 years younger that Dr Bob's mother and would have been 18 years old when his parents married. She was 21 years old when Dr Bob was born. I believe she could have only been considered a "foster daughter" for less than 3 years and then I believe she would have been legally an adult. Maybe the term "foster sister" was not meant to be figuratively but perhaps more a term of endearment. Bob might have looked up to her as if she were his older foster sister.

It is also possible Amanda was living with Susan Holbrook prior to her marriage to Walter Smith and she moved in after the wedding, but have found no real evidence of this.

I have not done the family trees for the Holbrook or Northrop families but I believe if I did I might find Amanda Northrop and Susan Holbrook were some sort of cousins.

There is no doubt she lived in St Johnsbury and lived with the Smiths. She taught at St Johnsbury Academy in 1883-84. She also attended church with Dr Bob's parents at the North Congressional Church. In 1885 she moves to New York and takes a teaching job but her name appears in the local paper several times stating she was visiting the Smiths.

Another strange thing I found was that all of Amanda's family are buried in Bradley Cemetery, Fairfield, Franklin County, Vermont except Amanda and her brother Octavius. Several generations of Northrops are buried there with the exception of these two. They are buried in Pleasant View Cemetery, Randolph, Orange County, Vermont some 95 miles away. Just found it odd.

Charles from Wisconsin
| 9037|9024|2013-02-18 10:21:51|B|Re: Amanda Northrup|
Great work Charles, as usual. Ironic that she actually outlived Dr. Bob. She passed 5 Oct 1955 at 97 years old in Burlington (Chittenden County) Vermont. She fell at home, broke her left hip, and died of pneumonia due to "Advanced age and Debility." She had the operation for the hip on 14 Sep 1955, and died 3 weeks later. Her place of burial is mentioned by Charles. Exact grave location is Sec C, Lot 44, able to be found with the help of the funeral home, I have the number if it is needed. It is odd about the familial burial arrangements. Blessings,

Brian

I wonder if she attended Dr. Bobs funeral?

- - - -

> From: cpknapp@...
> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013
> Subject: Re: Amanda Northrup
>
> Lois has a very good question. I had tried to figure this out myself. I found that Dr Bob's "foster sister" was Amanda Carolyn Northrop and was born June19, 1858 in town of Fairfield, in Franklin County, Vermont, and 75 miles West Northwest of St Johnsbury.
>
> Her parents were Abraham & Rebekah (Potter) Northrop and they had the following children::
> Ella A. Northrop b. Dec 28, 1848
> Jane B. Northrop b. Mar 15, 1852
> Octavius Potter Northrop b. Aug 14, 1855
> Amanda Carolyn Northrop b. Jun 19, 1858
> Abbie L. Northrop b. May 29, 1862
>
> Amanda's father died Jul 28, 1864 when she was 6 years old. I find her name on the 1860, 1870, and 1880 U S Census and was listed as living with her mother and father or with her widowed mother. I never found her on any of the census of the Smith household.
>
> Dr Bob's father, Walter Perrin Smith, was born November 4, 1841 and died October 16, 1919. His mother Susan Amanda Holbrook was born June 26, 1855 and died August 7 1942. Walter and Susan were married August 15, 1876. Robert Holbrook Smith, their only child, was born August 8, 1879.
>
> I found that Amanda was 3 years younger that Dr Bob's mother and would have been 18 years old when his parents married. She was 21 years old when Dr Bob was born. I believe she could have only been considered a "foster daughter" for less than 3 years and then I believe she would have been legally an adult. Maybe the term "foster sister" was not meant to be figuratively but perhaps more a term of endearment. Bob might have looked up to her as if she were his older foster sister.
>
> It is also possible Amanda was living with Susan Holbrook prior to her marriage to Walter Smith and she moved in after the wedding, but have found no real evidence of this.
>
> I have not done the family trees for the Holbrook or Northrop families but I believe if I did I might find Amanda Northrop and Susan Holbrook were some sort of cousins.
>
> There is no doubt she lived in St Johnsbury and lived with the Smiths. She taught at St Johnsbury Academy in 1883-84. She also attended church with Dr Bob's parents at the North Congressional Church. In 1885 she moves to New York and takes a teaching job but her name appears in the local paper several times stating she was visiting the Smiths.
>
> Another strange thing I found was that all of Amanda's family are buried in Bradley Cemetery, Fairfield, Franklin County, Vermont except Amanda and her brother Octavius. Several generations of Northrops are buried there with the exception of these two. They are buried in Pleasant View Cemetery, Randolph, Orange County, Vermont some 95 miles away. Just found it odd.
>
> Charles from Wisconsin
| 9038|9038|2013-02-19 11:04:15|Glenn Chesnut|Al Anderson in Nevada|
From: Ron Roizen <ronroizen@frontier.com> (ronroizen at frontier.com)

I wonder if anyone on the list may have any information about an early AA member, possibly in Reno or elsewhere in northern Nevada, named Al Anderson (Alfred O. Anderson)?

With thanks,
Ron Roizen
| 9039|9024|2013-02-19 11:06:49|ckbudnick|Re: did Amanda Northrup attend Dr. Bob's funeral?|
The funeral guest books for both Dr. Bob and Anne are at the John Hay Library at Brown University in the Robert Holbrook Smith Collection.

Chris B.

- - - -

From: Brian <kochbrian@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ironic that she actually outlived Dr. Bob. She passed 5 Oct 1955 at 97 years old in Burlington (Chittenden County) Vermont.

I wonder if she attended Dr. Bobs funeral?
| 9040|7229|2013-02-19 11:09:31|insfandy|Re: God as we understood Him: the atheist's story|
There is a fairly lengthy and detailed article now on Jim Burwell on Wikipedia listed under his name.

Mark H
San Francisco
| 9041|9041|2013-02-19 11:20:41|Jim M|3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
From: Anne D. <xxxxxxxxxxx@aol.com>
To: silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 7:29 PM
Subject: Silkworth.net Visitor eM@iler submission


The following are form results from your web site:

Name: Anne D.

Email: xxxxxxxxxxx@aol.com

Comments: Our Women's Group decided to go through the stories in the Big Books 4th edition. Upon reading " Freedom from Bondage" (14)pgs. 544-552 someone who has a 3rd edition book showed us that an entire paragraph was taken out( of the 4th edition) See, Pg. 546 in the 3rd edition, 3rd paragraph. Why??? Seems like a pretty important paragraph. I have been trying to find out why but I've had NO luck.
If possible, would you be able to assist me?

Thank You,
Annie D

====================================
THE PARAGRAPH THAT WAS REMOVED:
I looked around me at people who seemed happy and tried to analyze their happiness, and it seemed to me that without exception these people had something or somebody they loved very much. I didn't have the courage to love; I was not even sure I had the capacity. Fear of rejection and its ensuing pain were not to be risked, and I turned away from myself once more for the answer, this time to the drinks I had always refused before, and in alcohol I found a false courage.
====================================

Hello Jim,

THANK YOU for your response. I appreciate your help in the quest to answer this question. I too tried a number of avenues but had no success. I am grateful for your service and look forward to hearing back from you.

Sincerely,
Anne D.

In a message dated 2/17/2013 4:10:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com writes:


Hello Anne!


I have looked at both, the 4th edition and the 3rd edition Big Books and see the changes you mention. Unfortunately, at this time, I have no idea why they removed the paragraph you mention. I will have to do a little research to find the answer and I, at this time, do not know how long this will take. Hopefully, I will find the answer to your question sooner rather than later. I will save your email till I have exhausted all avenues to the answer to your request.

(PS -Can someone here on AAHistoryLovers help me out with Anne's question?)


Yours in service,
Warmest regards,
Jim M.
| 9042|9042|2013-02-19 12:27:15|Glenn Chesnut|Who 12-stepped Fitz M?|
From Roy L., Bill Lash, and John Barton (jax760)

John (see his e-mail at the bottom) believes this person may have been Silas
Bent or even possibly Charles Clapp.

- - - -

From: Roy <royslev@verizon.net> (royslev at verizon.net)

On page 56 of our Big Book there's an account of John Henry Fitzhugh Mayo 's
spiritual experience: "One night, when confined in a hospital, he [Fitz Mayo]
was approached by an alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience." This man's
approach helped Fitz surrender.

Does anyone know the identity of this 12 stepper who was instrumental in
bringing Fitz M. into our early New York City fellowship?

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net)
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013

They are talking about Bill Wilson.

- - - -

From: Roy <royslev@verizon.net> (royslev at verizon.net)
Date: February 12, 2013

Bill, do you have any sources or historical references to this? I see it
mentioned on 161 of "Pass It On" but I was wondering if there are any additional
biographical references.

I'll tell you why I'm not yet sure: See Fitz's story "Our Southern Friend" in
the Big Book on page 503 of my 3rd edition and pg 214 of the 4th edition we have
the following account from Fitz while in a hospital (Town's I assume?) :

===================================
"Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to get my mind
from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I start to clean up the
debris. One man comes back, closing the door behind him.
He looks at me. 'You think you are hopeless, don't you?' he asks.
'I know it,' I reply.
'Well, you're not,' says the man. 'There are men on the streets of New York
today who were worse than you, and they don't drink any more.'
'What are you doing here then?' I ask.
'I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be honest, and I
wasn't' he answers.
A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite.
'What is it?' I enquire.
Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself….etc."
'I'll do anything,' I reply.
'Then all your troubles are over,' says the man and leaves the room."
===================================

Then Fitz has his spiritual experience, recounted again in "We Agnostics" pg 56:

"One night, when confined in a hospital, he was approached by an alcoholic who
had known a spiritual experience….etc."

'Who are you to say there is no God?'
This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees….etc."

From what you and others including Glenn C. and Art S. (our Texas archivist) are
saying, this man who left Town's nine days ago was Bill Wilson. Was it part of
Bill's history that he had been in Town's only nine days before Ebby's approach?
According to Bill, yes, he had been in Town's several times before (at the
expense of Leonard Strong his O.D. brother-in-law) and then after Ebby's
approach he went on drinking for a few days and then checked himself into Town's
for the last time and had his "separation from alcohol" for the last time and
his own "spiritual experience."

But was it nine days before Fitz's approach? I know. What were the dates of
Bill's previous hospitalizations? Nine days before? I don't think so. This man
Fitz is referring to may be another early O.G. member or someone who had contact
with Bill as he was doing his early 12 step work (mostly unsuccessful) going
back to Town's with Silkworth's permission to talk to drunks to keep himself
sober.

Maybe Bill ultimately did pitch the program to Fitz and get him into the NYC
O.G. "alcoholic squadron" but I'm still not sure that Bill was indeed the man
Fitz is talking about in his story and referred to in "We Agnostics."

This may be another case of a "softer easier way" to jump to an ID conclusion.
That drunk who had been there nine days before maybe wasn't Bill, even if Bill
ultimately was the O.G. member who 12 stepped Fitz into the program.

If you have any further biographical or historical references regarding this ID
I would love to hear about them.

Thanks so much for your website and work

Roy L.

- - - -

From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760@yahoo.com)
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013

This 12 stepper was a drunk who had relapsed and was back in the hospital. It
may have been Silas Bent or even possibly Charles Clapp (an Oxford Grouper who
wrote the Big Bender and got sober in October of 35)

Best Regards,
John B
| 9043|9041|2013-02-19 13:49:04|Bob S|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
Thanks for mentioning the deletion from Wynn Corum's story, "FREEDOM FROM BONDAGE." It seemed to describe her emotional state - one of which many alcoholics might readily identify.

I also wonder why the editors of the fourth edition deleted the word
'Wednesday' from Earl Treat's story: "HE SOLD HIMSELF SHORT."

Third edition, page 292: "Wednesday, and Dr. Bob's afternoon off, .
. ."

Fourth edition, page 263: ". . . it was Dr. Bob's afternoon off, . .
."

Apparently, the editors considered the day of the week that Dr. Bob took his afternoons off of little importance. Certain AA historians might not agree.

Also deleted was Clarence Snyder's story, "THE HOME BREWMEISTER," from the fourth edition. According to Nell Wing,". . . had he not been so abrasive he probably would have been considered a co-founder of A.A." (Clarence S. Biography -- www.Silkworth.net) Clarence's new group at Cleveland grew faster than NYC and Akron combined. I believe certain BB stories should be retained not because of their newcomer appeal, but because of their historical significance. I consider this story as one of them.

Bob S.
| 9044|9044|2013-02-19 14:20:09|Glenn Chesnut|Amanda Carolyn Northrup - Successful Women in America|
From: J. Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

There's a biographical sketch of Dr. Bob's "foster-sister" Amanda Carolyn
Northrup [1858-1955] in CASQ 3, 8, July-September 2008, pp. 12-16, which
reprints her 1904 article on Successful Women in America [from Popular Science]


CASQ = Culture Alcohol & Society Quarterly
Newsletter of Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown University
Vol. 3, No. 8, pp. 12-16

http://library.brown.edu/collections/kirk/casq/

A NOTE ON AMANDA CAROLYN NORTHROP

Dr. Bob's much older "foster-sister," Amanda Carolyn Northrop, born 1858, died
in 1955. She taught for more than twenty years at Hunter College, where she was
teaching when in the year 1904 she published an early study on the careers of
successful women in America. First, why was she "fostered" by Dr. Bob's parents?
Her mother, Rebecca Potter (Patten) b. 19 Dec 1824 in Bakersfield, Franklin
Co.(VT) married her father, Abraham Northrop b. 30 Oct 1811 in VT on 9 FEB 1847
in Bakersfield, Franklin Co. (VT). Rebecca died on 15 Oct 1880. She and Abraham
had children (1) Ella Northrop b. 28 Doc 1848 in VT; (2) Jane B Northrop b. 15
Mar 1852 in VT; (3) Octavius P Northrop b. 14 Aug 1855 in VT; (4) Amanda C
Northrop b. 19 Jun 1858 in VT; (5) Abbie Lelia Northrop b. 29 May 1862 in
Fairfield, Franklin Co. (VT). That is, Amanda Carolyn Northrop was of age, in
fact was 22, when her mother died.

Was she resident with Dr. Bob's parents at the time of the 1880 Census? No, she
was resident with her mother, her father having died. In 1891, when she received
her passport, she was identified by Walter Perrin S., Bob's father, as of St.
Johnsbury, and the passport was to be delivered to Mrs. Walter P. S., 544
Columbus Avenue, Boston. (in her 1923 passport shows her at 22 Park Avenue,
occupation teacher, and attests that her previous passport was issued for travel
in England and Germany 1891-1892, and she thinks she threw it away after keeping
it for many years. In connection with her 1904 article, it may be noted that
Miss Northrop had attended Wellesley College as a special student in 1884-5,
before teaching at Northfield School for Girls.

It may be worthwhile to print here the text of Miss Northrop's most noted
article. Here is the text (Popular Science Monthly, 54 [1904], pp. 239-40, 242,
243-5, omitting tables) of "The Successful Women of America" by Amanda Carolyn
Northrop.

==============================================
It is now half a century since a few women began with the most "insistent
perseverance to demand a place in the political, professional and economic
world. They made this demand on the ground that woman's brain is equal to man's,
and, given a fair chance, women could successfully compete with men in every
field, except where physical strength and endurance were necessary. Man's
opposition to this demand, though at times bitter and determined, has been so
far overcome that to-day woman has every opportunity for gaining the best
educational and professional training, and has already taken her place in the
ranks of every profession except that of the armed defenders of her country.
Either with or without the consent of her brother, she has got most of the
things she has asked for, and some things which she neither asked for nor
wanted. She has accomplished much, but her achievements are still looked upon
with misgivings by many, as is seen in the frequent discussions of 'The New
Woman,' The Unquiet Sex' and the 'Evils of the Higher Education.' In all these
discussions there is the constant comparison of the two sexes in ability,
perseverance and poise. But since they entered the race with the tremendous
advantage of centuries of mental training and experience on the side of the men,
it is most unjust to draw comparisons.

Putting therefore all comparisons entirely aside, it seemed worthwhile to make a
study, as far as was possible, of those women who have achieved in public or
professional life that measure of success sufficient to give them a place among
the successful men and women of America, for the purpose of finding out in what
lines of work the greater probabilities of success lie, and what part
educational training seems to have had.

The material used as a basis of this study is found in the latest edition of
'Who's Who in America.' It would be difficult to find any two persons who would
quite agree as to what constitutes success. And this book admittedly has sins of
both omission and commission, still it is probably as nearly complete as a book
of this kind could well be. The points considered will be found in the following
table. The blank spaces and small figures show the incompleteness of data in
many cases. The conclusions therefore are only tentative. [Table omitted.]

The 1902 edition of 'Who's Who in America' contains the names of 11,551 living
men and women together with brief biographical sketches giving, as far as
possible, birth, parentage, education, marriage and profession. Of these names
977 are women, a ratio of 1:11%. Sixteen out of this number are well-known
actresses and opera singers who are Americans neither by birth nor residence;
six are ladies of social prominence, wives of distinguished men; and one is a
deposed queen, which leaves 954 to be considered in this paper.

A careful study of these practically self-written biographies has revealed many
interesting facts and tendencies. This is especially true so far as they answer
two important questions: First, what professions seem to give the greatest
opportunity for success; and second, what educational preparation seems most
helpful and necessary. In the order of numbers, they stand as follows Authors,
including novelist, essayist, writer, poet, historian, 487; artists, including
painter, sculptor, engraver, etcher, illustrator and architect, 103; educators,
including lecturers, 91; journalists, including editor, critic and
correspondent, 65; actresses, 59; musicians, 43; social reformers, including
clubwomen and settlement workers, 27; physicians, 21; scientists, including
naturalists, 17; ministers, including salvation army and missionary workers, 13;
philanthropists, 12; librarians, 9; lawyers, 9; miscellaneous, 3. These figures,
it will be seen, amount to five more than the whole number of persons
classified, because that number of women are represented as actively engaged in
more than one vocation.

The accompanying table [omitted] shows both the number and the per cent of those
married in each profession, the average age, so far as given, and the general
education as well as the particular colleges represented.

The tendency of successful women to marriage does not seem great, the per cent,
being only 54. In every case, except the minister and lawyer, the table shows
less than sixty per cent, married, and it seems probable that a large number of
the women in these professions married before they entered professional life.
The journalist comes next in the per cent, married, while the artist falls to 43
per cent., and the educator runs very little risk - if she considers it a risk -
her chances of matrimony being only 26.3 per cent, or a little over one to four.
The cause of this invites speculation. Is it merely disinclination on her part,
or is it because she has less opportunity for meeting congenial men; or can it
be that her acquisition of knowledge and possibly the instructive habit makes
her less attractive to men? At any rate, success and matrimony do not seem to go
hand in hand with the educator. It will doubtless cause surprise that the table
shows only about half the successful actresses married. This may be due to their
omitting the fact of their marriage, because they find it to their advantage
professionally to be supposed unmarried, and it may possibly be due to the fact
that they seem to unmarry with so much ease.

As to age, the table shows that only 69 per cent, gave their age, so that the
conclusions drawn are not perhaps of great value. Still if a woman's inclination
to tell her age does not increase with age, it would seem fair to draw the
conclusion that the path to what the world calls success is long and full of
obstacles for the woman who attempts it. The musician seems to reach the goal
first, her age averaging 40.7 years, and the actress and the artist stand next.
They each average 44.4 years.

In the matter of education, the technical education is not considered, the
object of the writer being to find the importance which general education and
college training hold in the making of a successful woman. It is true, however,
that most of the artists and the musicians and many of the educators studied
abroad in their special lines. Where no mention whatever is made of education,
the writer concludes that it must have been slight.

The table [omitted] indicates that college training has played a small part in
woman's success, only 148 or 15.5 per cent. The largest percentage of college
bred women is found among scientists, ministers and educators, but even the
number of educators who have had college training is less than half, while in
all the other professions, except the ones already named, the table shows less
than one fourth to be college women. Some of these women have taken more than
one degree, and others have studied in one or more colleges and universities
without having taken a degree in any. The question, however, is not so much what
place college training has occupied in the past, as it is what the tendency
toward extended study and investigation seems to be. By arranging those who gave
their age in separate columns according to the date of birth, one may get a fair
idea of the tendency towards a higher education, and the relative value it bears
in the successful life. All those born before 1850 are classed together and the
others by decades. The two columns following the date of birth show respectively
the number and the per cent, of college women. Among authors there is an
increase of college women who were born during the fifties, over those born
before 1850. The next decade shows a further increase of ten per cent., but of
those born between sixty and seventy there is a decrease of ten per cent., or
from 58.3 per cent, to 47.6 per cent. Educators, as has already been said, have
the largest number of college women. The last decade considered shows only four
names, but they are all college bred. If, however, all the professions are
considered together, the reader will see that the per cent, of college bred
women born between 1860 and 1870 is less than in any preceding period.

The table also shows the chief woman's colleges represented in comparison with
coeducational colleges. Vassar, Wellesley, Smith, Radcliffe and Bryn Mawr each
count authors and educators of note among their daughters, but beyond these
professions they are scarcely represented at all. The other colleges represented
are with few exceptions, the coeducational colleges and state universities east
of the Mississippi River. With the exception of the philanthropists, the number
who were educated in coeducational institutions is in every case larger than
that of all the woman's colleges combined. That is, the majority of these
college women were educated in institutions where their instructors were almost
exclusively men. If then colleges and especially woman's colleges play so small
a part in the success of the women who have been invited to enter the doors of
'Who's Who,' the question naturally rises, where have they received their
education?

The scientists educated in the public school stand to those educated in the
private school in the ratio of 5:4, but in every other profession the number
educated in private schools far exceeds that of the public schools. Even among
educators where thorough knowledge is certainly essential to success, the ratio
of those educated in the private school is to those educated in the public
school as 6:5; the journalists over 3:1; the physicians 7:2 and the authors over
4:1.

The prevailing idea seems to be that the private school is all very well for the
girl who wants some knowledge of the so-called 'accomplishments' and a
sufficient amount of general knowledge to make her fairly intelligent, that they
are of value only to those parents who wish the school associates of their
daughters to be as nearly as possible among their own social class, but as for
giving a pupil anything like thoroughness in the subjects studied, that the
private school standards are far below those of the public school. A glance at
the table, however, seems to tell quite another story.

While the public school should not for a moment be undervalued, these figures
would seem to give one a reason to believe the private schools of the country to
be a valuable educational factor in fitting a woman for a successful career.

It is greatly to be regretted that the biographies investigated are in many
cases so incomplete. The results of the investigation are therefore only partly
conclusive, or perhaps suggestive. But so far as they go they speak with a
degree of authority and nothing is true beyond that point.
==============================================

Note: Two passages may be of interest in considering her foster-brother's
collaborative book with Bill W. "A careful study of these practically
self-written biographies has revealed many interesting facts and tendencies" and
the concluding statement, "It is greatly to be regretted that the biographies
investigated are in many cases so incomplete. The results of the investigation
are therefore only partly conclusive, or perhaps suggestive. But so far as they
go they speak with a degree of authority and nothing is true beyond that point."
| 9045|9045|2013-02-20 10:01:24|Jim|Judge Ray Harrison - Clancy Got Well - 1st AA group in Iowa|
Someone showed me a book which he purchased at an auction, called "Clancy Got Well." Can anybody tell me more about the book and its author?

Is this person related to Clancy I. from Venice, California?

What is so interesting about this particular book, not only is it the 1st printing - 1951 - but it is also signed by the author to a B. B. Brown, I think? (forgot the last name I think, but can get it) - I suspect an AA member at the time.

The guy who got this book at the auction said there was a typed letter tucked inside it dated 1957 with a two cent stamp on the envelope to the recipient. Inside the envelope was a typed letter from the author who happened to be a judge named Ray Harrison I believe. It was somewhat a short letter (1 page) which talked about Clancy being sober and a newcomer being in an AA meeting at the time who was only 2 hours sober.

This book is signed by the author (the judge).

Thanks again for any information you can give me.

Yours in service,
Warmest regards,
Jim Myers,
silkworth.net

- - - -

From the moderator Glenn C.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Clancy-Got-Well/202838456446117
"Written by Jay R. Clancy, or John R. Harrison, a Judge from Des Moines, Iowa who started the first AA Group in the state. The book was written in 1951 and accounts his road to sobriety."

http://www.en.zvab.com/Clancy-Got-Jay-Clancy/140124071/buch
"The author, an alcoholic who went to A.A., tells his story of alcoholism and finding life after treatment."

- - - -

FROM BOB P.'s UNPUBLISHED A.A. HISTORY:

How A.A. got started in Iowa

As early as October 1941, an abortive attempt was made to form a group in Des Moines, Iowa. An Emil W. reported four members to the office in New York, which responded by sending him some inquiries that had been received from there. Apparently, however, the group could not sustain itself.

"A.A. began in earnest in Iowa on October 29, 1943, when Don F. traveled from Omaha, Nebraska, to make a Twelfth Step call on Judge Ray H. at his office in Des Moines. Also present were Bill A. and Herbert L. It turned out that the judge had been dry a month on his own, while the visiting Don F. had been sober only two weeks! An immediate stream of lively, witty and wonderful correspondence sprang up between Ray H. and the New York service staff. Within a month, the letters from Iowa were on stationery bearing an 'Alcoholics Anonymous' letterhead. Ray adopted the nom-de-plume 'Hildegarde' and Hildegarde began sending 'News Flashes' and 'Bedtime Stories' about the goings-on in Des Moines A.A. By its third meeting (!), the group was up to 17 and boasted its own P.O. box."

A December 1943 letter reports an article has appeared in a local paper about A.A. Also, Denison from Waterloo, Iowa, is working on getting a group going there, and the Des Moines members are going over there to help out. "Hildegarde," it seems, is now putting out a newsletter, "The A.A. Tribune" about Des Moines A.A., which now has 31 members. And a January 10 letter announces the first meeting of a group in Burlington, with five members and a contingent from Des Moines to start them off. Also present was a Catholic priest, Father T.J. Lew, who was so taken with what he saw that he preached his Sunday sermon on A.A.

Before the end of January 1944, Des Moines was up to 50 members, and a group was starting in Marshalltown; by March, another in Cedar Rapids, with nine locals plus two ministers and the Des Moines team; by April, Sioux City was added. Also in February, an Alano Club had been formed in Des Moines. In May, some members in the city split off to form a group on the East Side. And the sixth and seventh towns in Iowa are having their first A.A. meetings; namely, Newton and Davenport.

A scant 11 months after its beginning, A.A. in Iowa held its first State Convention at the swank Hotel Ft. Des Moines! After a day of workshops, a buffet lunch and afternoon tea for the wives, the banquet was attended by 150 from all over Iowa and from Minneapolis, Chicago, Omaha, and St. Paul. The Convention was covered with praise in newspapers and radio.
| 9046|9046|2013-02-21 14:38:41|Jim Myers|All the AAHL files also now online at Silkworth dot net|
All the files of the past AA History Lovers messages, over 8,000 of them, can now be found on silkworth.net here for those interested and for years to come:
 
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/aa_history_lovers_messages.html
 
I have also put them up in Adobe Acrobat PDF file format.

You can use the search function in Microsoft Word, Adobe Acrobat, or whatever other viewer you use, to find all of the places where a particular word or phrase is used.
| 9047|9046|2013-02-22 09:06:10|Ernie Kurtz|Re: All the AAHL files also now online at Silkworth dot net|
Wow! Thank you! We've come a long way, since 1935 and 1975, with many dedicated and generous helpers. Praise and gratitude to all.

ernie kurtz

On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:38 AM, Jim Myers wrote:

> All the files of the past AA History Lovers messages, over 8,000 of them, can now be found on silkworth.net here for those interested and for years to come:
>
> http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/aa_history_lovers_messages.html
>
> I have also put them up in Adobe Acrobat PDF file format.
>
> You can use the search function in Microsoft Word, Adobe Acrobat, or whatever other viewer you use, to find all of the places where a particular word or phrase is used.

__________________________________________

AND THE PAST AAHL MESSAGES ARE ALSO AVAILABLE AT THIS SITE:

http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html
| 9048|9045|2013-02-23 09:49:55|Shakey Mike|AAHL- using our resources|
Far too many questions are posted on AAHL that have previously been Answered in AAHL posts.
It is good that all the messages are saved for posterity, but what good are they if the search engine is not used to discover the answer in previously posted messages and their responses?
A suggestion would be to explain the use of the search engine every 3-4 months so that the newer members can be acquainted with it and to refresh the rest of us that have been with AAHL for some time.
I'd like to hear from other "history buffs or lovers" on how to use our groups resources efficiently and applaud the work done in archiving the previous and future posts of this group.
There are also posts that seem like they want someone to do the research for them. It is my thought that researching for the answers myself is half of the fun. In doing so I gain a deeper appreciation or gratitude for those who came before us.
The archives workshops of the NAAAW ( National AA Archives Workshop) are a perfect place to learn the basics. This year it will be in Springfield, Il, and in the Philadelphia, Pa area in 2014. I hope to see you all there.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
| 9049|8991|2013-02-23 10:00:19|Jim M|Re: AAHistoryLovers messages: gold archival cd disks|
Gold archival cd disks rated for 300 years (the only archival medium that lasts longer is acid-free paper):

Hi Mike,

This is a great Idea Mike and I will do as you suggested for future use (more than a single copy). I will also update the AAHistoryLovers files by year as Glenn updates the files as time passes to add to those all ready created.

Thanks again Mike!

Warmest regards,
Jim M.,
http://www.silkworth.net/

________________________________
From: Shakey Mike <shakey1aa@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013
Subject: Re: All the past AAHistoryLovers messages for archiving

It would be to the benefit of long term archival storage to use a gold archival cd that costs more but will last much much longer. Keep a copy on site at your archives and one offsite in a safety deposit box ,for instance, in case of fire.

Yours in service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
| 9050|9050|2013-02-24 15:24:16|Glenn Chesnut|Pete W. - Rum, Radio and Rebellion - Big Book story|
Pete Wasser, who wrote "Rum, Radio and Rebellion" in the stories at the back of the Big Book (2nd ed. p. 317, 3rd ed. p. 356) says in that story that he was born in Cleveland, OHIO, and was living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when he first contacted A.A.

Pete wrote an update of his story for the January 1968 issue of the A.A. Grapevine entitled "No Graduation from AA!" which says at the end that it was written in Cleveland, TENNESSEE, a little town which had a population of only 20,000 at the time:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/717

Did the Grapevine make a mistake?

It also seems to me that "Pete" may have been just a nickname. He seems to be the same man as the one who shows up a number of times on a Google search in the history of radio stations in the United States under the name:

G. S. "Pete" Wasser

What more do we know about this person?
| 9051|9041|2013-02-26 13:08:48|brian koch|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
From Brian Koch and Tim T.

- - - -

From: brian koch <kochbrian@hotmail.com>
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

I am troubled by any altering of the original story, especially if the author is no longer alive to participate in the editing. I am sure legally all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed, but that does not change the fact that the words and feelings the original authors were asked to convey have been altered.

It seems in most cases, at least from what I have seen, it is in the interest of brevity. Still, would the big book be harmed so much if it were a few pages longer? Should we tell an abbreviated story when we make a 12 step call in the interest of saving time?

Our Southern Friend has been significantly edited since its appearance in the 1st edition. Not for any improvement in the quality of the story in my humble opinion.

I know this is just an observation, and purely my own thoughts, but I wanted to engage in this conversation as I feel it is noteworthy. Has anyone seen a story improve in the editing?

Blessings,

Brian

I am just glad I did not have to submit my experience, strength, and hope to AA for edits prior to my being able to help people with it.

- - - -

From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com)

Also deleted was Clarence Snyder's story, "THE HOME BREWMEISTER," from the fourth edition. According to Nell Wing,". . . had he not been so abrasive he probably would have been considered a co-founder of A.A." (Clarence S. biography -- www.Silkworth.net) Clarence's new group at Cleveland grew faster than NYC and Akron combined.

I believe certain BB stories should be retained not because of their newcomer appeal, but because of their historical significance. I consider this story as one of them.

I find it interesting from a historical perspective, reading White's Slaying the Dragon, that there have been many movements to help drunks. Many were successful, but virtually all were headed by charismatic, religious leaders. All failed when "personalities before principles" came into play!

AA had some close calls with the same weakness ... that is, a tendency of too many members who want to become THE charismatic personality, and a complimentary tendency of too many members to want to be a follower of such. We continue to see this to this day. I think we in AA have been very lucky to have had the development of our Traditions to help shield us from this tendency. Let us continue to resist putting one or another of our members on pedestals, holding
them up as the "authentic" version of sobriety!

Tim T.

____________________________________________________

Original message from: rstonebraker212@comcast.net
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013
Subject: RE: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.

Thanks for mentioning the deletion from Wynn Corum's story, "FREEDOM FROM BONDAGE." It seemed to describe her emotional state - one of which many alcoholics might readily identify.

I also wonder why the editors of the fourth edition deleted the word
'Wednesday' from Earl Treat's story: "HE SOLD HIMSELF SHORT."

Third edition, page 292: "Wednesday, and Dr. Bob's afternoon off, .
. ."

Fourth edition, page 263: ". . . it was Dr. Bob's afternoon off, . .
."

Apparently, the editors considered the day of the week that Dr. Bob took his afternoons off of little importance. Certain AA historians might not agree.

Also deleted was Clarence Snyder's story, "THE HOME BREWMEISTER," from the fourth edition. According to Nell Wing,". . . had he not been so abrasive he probably would have been considered a co-founder of A.A." (Clarence S. Biography -- www.Silkworth.net) Clarence's new group at Cleveland grew faster than NYC and Akron combined. I believe certain BB stories should be retained not because of their newcomer appeal, but because of their historical significance. I consider this story as one of them.

Bob S.
| 9052|9052|2013-02-26 13:14:53|Bill Lash|Wilson House Fundraiser and Bill W. Day|
Wilson House Fundraiser and Bill W. Day

Here is a heads up on an event which will take place on Saturday, June 1st, 2013.

124 Productions out of NYC is presenting the film "Bill W. - A Documentary" which be shown at The Riley Center for the Arts at Burr & Burton Academy in Manchester, Vermont (approx. 6 miles from The Wilson House) for the benefit of the Wilson House.

This is a great fundraiser to help us increase our prudent reserve and/or building preservation fund. We are most grateful.

Tickets may be purchased by phoning us at 802-362-5524

There will be a reception following the film at The Wilson House.

The very next day -- Sunday, June 2nd, 2013 -- is Bill W. Day (which is by word of mouth only - so we do not make mention of this on the web, but you can spread the word). It's a day when there is a graveside service, a speaker meeting on the church lawn (next door) and great fellowship!

Please let your friends know about this.

Thanks, Bonnie

The Wilson House
| 9053|9053|2013-02-26 14:04:36|david93may|When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
When did the first central offices and intergroups appear in North America?

My name's David and I'm a member of an AA group in Melbourne Australia.

Before 1951, when the first General Service Conference was convened, and apart from the Alcoholic Foundation itself, were central offices and intergroups already established around North America? And if so, were they generally city based or were there some committees set up at a State/Province level?

Any help you can give me on these questions would be appreciated.

Thanks
| 9054|9054|2013-02-26 14:06:57|Glenn Chesnut|Why not a state/province system instead of numbered Areas?|
From: "david93may" <david93may@yahoo.com.au>
(david93may at yahoo.com.au)

When the General Service Structure was first created with its
Group => District => Area => Conference structure,
was there any consideration given to having a Federated system with a group conscience in each State / Province, rather than the numbered Area system that eventuated?

That way, instead of the 93 Areas in the present North American system:

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/aasite_finder.cfm?origpage=72

http://www.aa.org/pics_gen/en_us-canada_areamap.gif

there would be only the 50 U.S. states (plus Puerto Rico, District of Columbia, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and the Northern Mariana Islands) and Canada's 10 provinces (and 3 territories).

That would be a total of only 60 states/provinces (plus however the smaller units were counted).

If this was discussed back at the time, what were the reasons for not having a federated system?

Thanks, David
Melbourne, Australia
| 9055|9055|2013-02-26 14:36:01|pamelafro88|Original printing of the 12x12|
Can someone verify what is the date of the original printing of the first edition of the 12x12? I have searched the archives and silkworth.net but don't see any reference to it

regards
Pam F
| 9056|9056|2013-02-26 14:36:33|gentilsa|What was the test on page 163 of the Big Book?|
Hello History Lovers,

I have tried to do a search in previous posts and am either not searching for the right phrase or it is not answered in the past. Please see if there is any factual evidence on this:

Page 163 3rd paragraph:

"Our friend proceeded to tell him. And with such good effect that doctor agreed to a test among his patients and certain other alcoholics from the clinic which he attends."

My question is what was the test?

This apparently took place in 1939. Was this a written test where the doctors could tabulate all the test results after giving it to a number of people? Were there any written test scripts that were followed?

Steve G from New Jersey

- - - -

From Glenn C. the moderator:

The best-known written test from that period was one originally devised by a professor at Johns Hopkins University. For a long version (35 questions) see the first discussion in the Tablemate (the Detroit or Washington D.C. pamphlet):

http://hindsfoot.org/detr1.html

This set of question was sometimes shortened to just ten or twelve of these questions.

But look at the last paragraph on that page of the Big Book. The kind of test the Big Book was talking about, as I read this page, was taking a selected number of these known alcoholics and sending them to AA. The prediction was that at least 50% of those who really tried would end up staying in AA and getting long-term sobriety.

It wasn't a written test, but the PRAGMATIC test of seeing how many of these alcoholics could actually be gotten sober if you got them seriously involved in the AA program.

William James was famous not only as a psychologist but also as a formative American philosopher. His style of philosophy was called "pragmatism." The way you figured out whether something was TRUE was to try it out in the real world and see if it WORKED.

This approach to truth -- the pragmatic principle used among so many twentieth century American philosophers -- is worked deeply into the basic fabric of the Big Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism
| 9057|9055|2013-02-26 14:57:16|Tom Hickcox|Re: Original printing of the 12x12|
On 2/26/2013 00:44, pamelafro88 wrote:
> Can someone verify what is the date of the original printing of the first edition of the 12x12? I have searched the archives and silkworth.net but don't see any reference to it
>
> regards
> Pam F

There has been only one edition of the 12&12, unless you count the Harpers.

The first printing was April 1953.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9058|9058|2013-02-27 12:01:14|Tom Hickcox|Re: Date of first printing of the Twelve and Twelve|
The question which was asked: what was the date of the original printing of the first edition of the 12x12?

On 2/26/2013 20:19, Bob S wrote:
> I am not sure this is much help, but this is a page from a first
> printing of the Twelve and Twelve. Otherwise I have found no date.

You need to look at the date code to find the specific month and year in which it was printed. The system for decoding the Harper date code is given here:

<http://www.qbbooks.com/first_ed_pub2.php>

D-C is April 1953.

That means the first printing was in April 1953.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9059|9055|2013-02-27 12:04:34|Arthur S|Re: Original printing of the 12x12|
The May 1953 Grapevine contained the notice below

----------

Special Notice

(Editor's note: as promised last month, we are pleased to bring you a
special advance notice from General Service Headquarters announcing
publication of Bill's new book "The Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions." The Traditions appeared serially in The Grapevine in the past twelve issues.)

After nearly eighteen months of writing, editing, and prepublication detail,
"The Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions" is about to be released. In
this new volume, regarded by those familiar with the project as the most
important AA publication since the "Big Book" first appeared in 1939, Bill
draws upon his long experience, and upon that of other early members, to set
forth his profound yet spirited interpretation of the fundamental principles
of AA.

Step by Step, Tradition by Tradition-in nearly 200 deeply stirring
pages-Bill offers his unique insight into the full meaning of each of AA's
tested guideposts ... the Twelve Steps through which individuals have
achieved sobriety sad the Twelve Traditions through which out group
structure has been maintained and strengthened.

Advance interest has been so great that arrangements have been made to issue
the book in two editions-one for distribution by AA groups, and another for
bookstore distribution to the general public by Harper and Brothers. AA
retains full control and copyright ownership of both editions through Works
Publishing, Inc.

When the book is released for sale in late May or early June, the bookstore
price will be $2.75 ($23.71 today) and out agreement with Harper's is that
no book will be retailed for less than that price.

To AA groups only, the book will be sold for $2.25 ($19.40 today) enabling
the groups to realize fifty cents on each copy re-sold to individuals.
(Although two-thirds of Gcncra1 Service Conference delegate in a recent poll
felt that this book ought to be sold without profit to the groups, to help
build an adequate Foundation reserve, neither Bill nor those at Headquarters
felt this to be sufficient consent on a matter of such importance; hence the
above discount.)

Orders are now being accepted, by mail only, and all shipments will be made
as soon after May 10 as possible.

----------

All copies of the 12&12 continue to be first edition copies. The earliest
copies (by a few months) of the 12&12 were distributed to the Delegates of
the 1953 General Service Conference. Much of the material that Bill W wrote
on the Steps and Traditions in 1940s Grapevine articles went into the 12&12
(with editing - see the book "The Language of the Heart"). A sizable chunk
of the Traditions material also went in to "AA Comes of Age."

The time period of the book release reputedly was at a point when Bill W was
experiencing the worst of his long term (and quite severe) episodes of
debilitating depression. Many say it is reflected in the tone of the book,
however, I don't get a sense of it.

An interesting oddity - the page numbering and text association of the early
12&12s do not correspond to current version of the 12&12. They can be off by
as much as two pages. I don't know at which printing it occurred but the
typeface was changed and it, in turn, changed the page numbers associated
with the text.

Cheers

Arthur
| 9060|9056|2013-02-27 12:22:59|t|Re: What was the test on page 163 of the Big Book?|
gentilsa wrote:
> Hello History Lovers,
>
> I have tried to do a search in previous posts and am either not searching for the right phrase or it is not answered in the past. Please see if there is any factual evidence on this:
>
> Page 163 3rd paragraph:
>
> "Our friend proceeded to tell him. And with such good effect that doctor agreed to a test among his patients and certain other alcoholics from the clinic which he attends."
>
> My question is what was the test?
>
> This apparently took place in 1939. Was this a written test where the doctors could tabulate all the test results after giving it to a number of people? Were there any written test scripts that were followed?
>
> Steve G from New Jersey

_____________________________________________

Steve,

How it has been explained to me is that page is discussing Hank P's sharing his experience of his own personal recovery in AA with Dr Howard who was the chief psych for the state of New Jersey. Dr Howard was impressed enough to try a test (or trial) program with some of his patients, and expanded that to a professional friend, Dr Russell Blaisdell of Rockland State Hosp in New York and some of the patients under his care.

This documents how AA began to reach out and carry our message of recovery to professionals and get our program of recovery into hospitals at that time.

This was not the same trial program that (even earlier) had carried the program to Mary M (Women Suffer Too) and Greenie at Blythwood Sanitarium through Dr Tiebout.

in my foggy mind, one of the first written tests (screening instrument) is what is usually called the Johns Hopkins test.**

Sometimes the number of questions vary, 10-?24. As best I remember that came out of those summer workshops for professionals in the field of alcohol research and treatment that Bill, Bob, Marty M and other early members participated in.

There may also be a separate test derived from Jellinek's work which included a Grapevine survey of early members ... but since it involved the GV it would be a bit later than what could be reported in the original big book.
___________________________________________

**For the long version (35 questions)
of the Johns Hopkins University test, see
http://hindsfoot.org/detr1.html
| 9061|9061|2013-02-27 12:58:11|charlie.silence|death of Dolores R., CER Archivist.|
It is with great sadness that I have to tell you that Dolores R, Region Archivist for CER passed away yesterday, Saturday. I believe some here might have known her.

Dolores was dedicated, enthusiastic and above all a good friend. It was Dolores who got me interested in Archives many years ago.

Thanks.
| 9062|9056|2013-02-27 13:24:54|Tom Hickcox|Re: What was the test on page 163 of the Big Book?|
On 2/26/2013 16:45, gentilsa wrote: Page 163 3rd paragraph:
> "Our friend proceeded to tell him. And with such good effect that doctor agreed to a test among his patients and certain other alcoholics from the clinic which he attends."

- - - -

Look on p. 114. They talk about alcoholics worked with in institutions
and their successes, "The majority have never returned" (to the asylums).

The First Edition has the story a bit differently. "During 1939 two
state hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had
no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum."

It wouldn't surprise me if this was what they are referring to.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9063|9046|2013-02-27 13:25:48|Rich Bement|Re: All the AAHL files also now online at Silkworth dot net|
Let's pause in gratitude for Nancy Olsen, the founder who knew how
important this work would be.
| 9064|9064|2013-02-27 15:05:58|Michael Gwirtz|AAHL and Silkworth archiving as topic for the NAAAW|
At the NAAAW workshops we have sessions devoted to the topics which are now being discussed. Websites, archival conservation and preservation. The particular topics regarding data which have just been raised can be discussed and from the members there solutions can be found.

I know Glenn was planning to be at Springfield Illinois.

These particular problems can be addressed in a session if people talk to the planning meeting committee about it for the NAAAW 2013.

If it is still a significant problem in 2014 let us know after the Illinois Workshop and I can discuss getting it on the 2014 workshop agenda.

There are a lot of real good computer folks attending these workshops. My friend Fred does computers for all the Models sporting goods stores And my friend Paul does programming for Comcast. He is a trouble shooter both are on my workshop committee.

If you e-mail me your specific problems, I will forward it to them.

A topic for 2014 might be using computers in archival preservation. And
developing a network to seek solutions to their many problems.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
| 9065|9064|2013-02-27 15:09:59|Jim Myers|Gold archival quality DVD discs|
Good evening my friends!
 
I believe that I have found a solution concerning archiving the AA History Lovers messages (probably silkworth.net in its entirety as well), but I will wait till all feedback on how to Archive all the files for generations to come and how they may be viewed that far in the future. What was sent to me in an email explains more about the Verbatim Gold Archive DVDs. What I found interesting is, these particular DVDs have a shelf live of 300 years and are bullet proof.
 
This looks like the best way to go for the DVDs, but, lets say, in 150, 200, 275 years from now, will there be a way to view these files from the DVDs?
 
My concern is will there still be PCs to view the files on the DVDs then, or will they change the technology from now to some more advanced technology in the future than what is currently the norm for us today?

You have to admit, since the beginning of the computer age, the technology for computers has advanced at a pretty fast rate - constantly changing.
 
If I do this with the DVDs, I will probably make a few copies (maybe more) and snail mail a copy to selected individuals to ensure they will be around for many years to come.
 
Here is the link to where I may purchase the Verbatim Gold Archive DVDs:

http://www.mediasupply.com/vegoardvd.html
 
Looking forward to hearing back from anyone that is interested in this ongoing discussion.
 
Many thanks to all!

Yours in service,
Warmest regards,
Jim Myers,
silkworth.net
| 9066|9058|2013-02-27 15:12:43|john wikelius|Re: Date of first printing of the Twelve and Twelve|
The same D-C is posted to the first printing of the Harper version of the 12&12.

John Wikelius
Enterprise, Alabama

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

You need to look at the date code to find the specific month and year in which it was printed. The system for decoding the Harper date code is given here:

http://www.qbbooks.com/first_ed_pub2.php>

D-C is April 1953.
| 9067|9056|2013-02-27 15:20:17|Jeff Bruce|Re: What was the test on page 163 of the Big Book?|
I am looking at a reprint of a first printing, first edition on page 127 (which is the equivalent of page 114 in later editions). The language is:

"About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic
alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all. The power of God goes deep."

This is totally different from the words you are giving. Where exactly did you get the words you quote below?

- - - -

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> wrote:

> On 2/26/2013 16:45, gentilsa wrote: Page 163 3rd paragraph:
> > "Our friend proceeded to tell him. And with such good effect that doctor agreed to a test among his patients and certain other alcoholics from the clinic which he attends."
>
> - - - -
>
> Look on p. 114. They talk about alcoholics worked with in institutions and their successes, "The majority have never returned" (to the asylums).
>
> The First Edition has the story a bit differently. "During 1939 two state hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had
> no relapse whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum."
| 9068|9068|2013-02-27 16:12:24|J. Michael Gilbreath|AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
When electronically archiving electronic documents like the emails in this group, what are the relative advantages and/or disadvantages to 1) storing in a database 2) saving as individual plain text files 3) creating either individual or multi page PDF docs?

Thanks

Michael Gilbreath
Former Archivist
ICYPAA
| 9069|9064|2013-02-27 16:21:22|Tom Pasek|Re: Gold archival quality DVD discs|
I'm a bit concerned about using CDs of any variety for long-term achieves purposes. Safely storing the data is easy. Retrieval is the difficult part. At this very moment many computers are being manufactured without an optical (CD) reader. They will soon be as obsolete as the floppy disk.

Micro-storage such as the SD cards used in cameras and elsewhere is more likely to be around for a while, but not forever.

The solution that I would be most prone to study is cloud storage. The big players all have multiple mirrored, geographically diverse server farms. Data storage is moving in that direction as opposed to moving from it as it is with all forms of physical storage. While I wouldn't abandon physical storage, I would only suggest maintaining it as an interim solution.

Tom Pasek
Bakersfield, California
661.654.9116 (Phone)
tom@shaggyd.com (tom at shaggyd.com)
| 9070|8991|2013-02-27 16:24:03|bigbookjoe|AAHL archived messages: learning to check them first|
Checking the past messages before posting what you think is a new question.

May I suggest a simple docent detailing the previous question archive as a resource. It could be sent to each new member as they join the list, and to errant members when they re-raise a question. I know the moderator has gently chided me for not searching the archive before posting a repeat question (and my ego survived). :-)
| 9071|9041|2013-02-27 16:26:40|Ernie Kurtz|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
Brian, Tim, Glenn, others --

I will be happy to join in a petition effort requesting that G.S.O. not edit any stories that appeared in the Big Book without the author's explicit approval. In my opinion, such editing amounts to the virtual destruction of an historical document and approaches a violation of honesty. I would hope, in fact, that the A.A. History Lovers group consider whether such an effort may not be part of its responsibility to A.A. history.

On the other hand, I do think that the General Service Conference has the right and responsibility to determine which complete stories will appear in any new edition of the Big Book.

Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.
| 9072|9053|2013-02-27 16:43:38|Shakey Mike|Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
From Shakey Mike and Jeff (jeffreyj341)

- - - -

From: Shakey Mike <shakey1aa@yahoo.com> (shakey1aa at yahoo.com)

The following is from memory - and I am getting old and forgetful.

New York had Bill and the club house and AA headquarters.

Chicago had Sylvia Kauffman and the central office there (I think the 1st central office).

Los Angeles had its Central Office.

Philadelphia did also after 1948. Before that Philadelphia had a club house with its first committee being the gripe committee. Philadelphia handled the five county Philadelphia areas of Philadelphia, Delaware, Chester, Bucks and Montgomery counties, up to the Easton Pennyslvania area and most of South Jersey as far as Atlantic City. That covers a lot more than the city.

Most large cities had a "Mother Group" and then came what was called the "Neighborhood Groups."

After more and more groups the Intergroups or C.O. Central Offices came about. That way there would be one central telephone number and a paid employee to be there to ...
1. Make sure it was open
2. To provide literature
3. Deal with the press (P.I.)
4. Answer the phone( a qualified person passing on the AA message -- and doing 12 step work)

Their experience helped with our traditions. These offices were later contacted by Bill for help in starting GSO.

I could go on and on city by city and make this a large posting but I prefer not to do that.

Send best wishes to Ron C ., my good friend and your archive treasure, and to the Australian men and women that so graciously welcomed us at the last two Internationals in their hospitality rooms. You are all welcome to attend the NAAAW in Springfield, Illinois this year ( registration is open)and in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on 2014.

Yours In Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

From: Jeff <jeffreyj341@yahoo.com> (jeffreyj341 at yahoo.com)

Hello, Jeff J., alcoholic and sober since 10/30/1978

Don't know if this will help you but I am in the state of Massachusetts U.S.A. In our meeting list book on page 5 is:

Origin: Central Service Committee had its beginning in informal luncheon meetings of various Alcoholics Anonymous groups in and around Greater Boston in 1945. They saw the need of establishing a Central Office to coordinate the work of A.A. in this area as had been done in other parts of the country. As a result of the first meeting of the Delegates of the original 13 Groups, an office was established at 30 Huntington Avenue. From the 13 original groups in 1945, membership as grown to over 2,000 meetings a week in the Eastern Massachusetts area.

Hope this helps and it at least tells of when the first Central Service Office was open in Eastern Massachusetts U.S.A.
| 9073|9041|2013-02-27 16:45:02|gcb900|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
I would not disagree with Ernie, but the stories were supposed to have been edited before they were originally published.
| 9074|9053|2013-02-28 07:58:21|Arthur S|Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
In August 1941, Clarence S, founder of AA in Cleveland, joined with Abby G and other Cleveland members to help start AA's first Central Office.

Bill W also credits the Cleveland Central Office with introducing the principle of rotation to AA.

The Cleveland Central Bulletin was AA's first newsletter (October 1942) and preceded the Grapevine by almost two years.

The NY office (which evolved into GSO) was around long before any Intergroup or Central Office.

I can find no reliable literature indicating that Central Offices had a role in shaping GSO - it was likely the other way around.

In its early years the NY office was called either the "Headquarters" or "Central Office" or "General Office."

The office provided a central mail link to members attempting to start groups and helping them with growing pains. Over time, the accumulated letters sent in by the groups and members gave firm signals of a need for guidelines to help with group problems that occurred over and over.

Basic ideas for the Traditions came from these letters and the principles defined in the Foreword to the 1st edition Big Book.

Cheers

Arthur
| 9075|9075|2013-02-28 08:00:29|Arthur S|Re: Original printing of the 12x12 (extra)|
I omitted some historically important information about the 12x12.

The third experimental Conference was held in NY City from April 22-26,
1953. Its theme was "The Milestones Ahead." Board Chairman, Bernard B Smith,
reported that the corporate name of "Works Publishing" had been changed to
"Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing." The first Conference-approved book
distributed under the new publishing name was the 12&12. It contains the
final wording of the short form of the Traditions, as we know them today.
This is where and when the short form of the Traditions were
Conference-approved.

Betty L and Tom Powers helped Bill in writing the 12&12. Jack Alexander also
helped with editing. It was published in two editions: one for $2.25 ($19
today) for distribution through AA groups, and one for $2.75 ($24 today)
distributed through Harper and Brothers for sale in commercial bookstores.
In AA Comes of Age (219) Bill W described the 12&12 as "This small volume is
strictly a textbook which explains AA's 24 basic principles and their
application, in detail and with great care."

The 12&12 wording of the short form of the Traditions (as contrasted to the
version published in the November 1949 Grapevine) had two wording changes.
The term "primary spiritual aim" originally in Tradition Six was changed to
"primary purpose." The term "principles above personalities" originally in
Tradition Twelve was changed to "principles before personalities."

Copies of the new 12&12 were available in April 1953. Each Delegate was
given a copy at the Conference.

Cheers

Arthur
| 9076|9055|2013-02-28 08:11:37|schaberg43|Re: Original printing of the 12x12|
Despite the fact that the verso of the title page in later printings states "April" and the D-C code also translates as April, the AA version of the book was not actually released until mid-May of 1953.

I have in my collection a copy of the 12 x 12 that Bill Wilson inscribed to Tom Powers (who helped him with the writing of this book):

"Of the first six, first editions. // To Tom - / My brother in AA, / whose skill, devotion / and affectionate interest / did so much to make / this little work possible. / For the joys and pains / of its doing may we / thank God. // Ever Gratefully / Bill // B.H. [slash] May 15/53"

The Harpers edition appears to be the true first edition based on the following inscription dated May 1, 1953 by Bill to Lois in a copy of the Harpers 12 & 12 preserved at Stepping Stones :

To Lois - I affectionately dedicate this little book in memory of her loving care of me all through the years of the blight and of the transformation. I L Y, Bill B.H. 5/1/53

Old Bill

- - - -

Arthur S wrote:
>
> The May 1953 Grapevine contained the notice below
>
> ----------

Special Notice

(Editor's note: as promised last month, we are pleased to bring you a special advance notice from General Service Headquarters announcing publication of Bill's new book "The Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions." The Traditions appeared serially in The Grapevine in the past twelve issues.)

After nearly eighteen months of writing, editing, and prepublication detail, "The Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions" is about to be released. In this new volume, regarded by those familiar with the project as the most important AA publication since the "Big Book" first appeared in 1939, Bill draws upon his long experience, and upon that of other early members, to set forth his profound yet spirited interpretation of the fundamental principles of AA.

Step by Step, Tradition by Tradition - in nearly 200 deeply stirring pages - Bill offers his unique insight into the full meaning of each of AA's tested guideposts ... the Twelve Steps through which individuals have achieved sobriety sad the Twelve Traditions through which out group structure has been maintained and strengthened.

Advance interest has been so great that arrangements have been made to issue the book in two editions - one for distribution by AA groups, and another for bookstore distribution to the general public by Harper and Brothers. AA retains full control and copyright ownership of both editions through Works Publishing, Inc.

When the book is released for sale in late May or early June, the bookstore price will be $2.75 ($23.71 today) and out agreement with Harper's is that no book will be retailed for less than that price.

To AA groups only, the book will be sold for $2.25 ($19.40 today) enabling the groups to realize fifty cents on each copy re-sold to individuals. (Although two-thirds of Gcncra1 Service Conference delegate in a recent poll felt that this book ought to be sold without profit to the groups, to help build an adequate Foundation reserve, neither Bill nor those at Headquarters felt this to be sufficient consent on a matter of such importance; hence the above discount.)

Orders are now being accepted, by mail only, and all shipments will be made as soon after May 10 as possible.

----------

All copies of the 12&12 continue to be first edition copies. The earliest copies (by a few months) of the 12&12 were distributed to the Delegates of the 1953 General Service Conference. Much of the material that Bill W wrote on the Steps and Traditions in 1940s Grapevine articles went into the 12&12 (with editing - see the book "The Language of the Heart"). A sizable chunk of the Traditions material also went in to "AA Comes of Age."

The time period of the book release reputedly was at a point when Bill W was experiencing the worst of his long term (and quite severe) episodes of debilitating depression. Many say it is reflected in the tone of the book, however, I don't get a sense of it.

An interesting oddity - the page numbering and text association of the early > 12&12s do not correspond to current version of the 12&12. They can be off by as much as two pages. I don't know at which printing it occurred but the typeface was changed and it, in turn, changed the page numbers associated with the text.

Cheers

Arthur
| 9077|9050|2013-03-02 08:20:54|John|Re: Pete W. - Rum, Radio and Rebellion - Big Book story|
In Broadcasting News magazine, there's a picture of Pete Wasser at the 1947 NAB Golf Tournament, described as "ex-KQV".

Wasser left as G.M. of KQV in 1947, started Pete Wasser Co., which became Wasser Kay Phillips in Pittsburgh. Historically, KQV has been the most prominent radio station in Pittsburgh after KDKA. Can't find anything (yet) to indicate when Wasser left Pittsburgh.

I'll go to Pittsburgh Central Office and see if he was involved in the Steering Committee or was Secretary of a group.

His father was a prominent dentist in the Cleveland area. Good chance his father was G. Seaton Wasser of Kirtland, Ohio, same town east of Cleveland where the Mormons erected their first Temple.

Can't find Pete's obituary. Tried Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Tennessee papers.

john lee
pittsburgh


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> Pete Wasser, who wrote "Rum, Radio and Rebellion" in the stories at the back of the Big Book (2nd ed. p. 317, 3rd ed. p. 356) says in that story that he was born in Cleveland, OHIO, and was living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when he first contacted A.A.
>
> Pete wrote an update of his story for the January 1968 issue of the A.A. Grapevine entitled "No Graduation from AA!" which says at the end that it was written in Cleveland, TENNESSEE, a little town which had a population of only 20,000 at the time:
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/717
>
> Did the Grapevine make a mistake?
>
> It also seems to me that "Pete" may have been just a nickname. He seems to be the same man as the one who shows up a number of times on a Google search in the history of radio stations in the United States under the name:
>
> G. S. "Pete" Wasser
>
> What more do we know about this person?
>
| 9078|9050|2013-03-03 08:35:25|corafinch|Re: Pete W. - Rum, Radio and Rebellion - Big Book story|
If the father of G. S. "Pete" Wasser was a dentist, that would have been Dr. George N. Wasser of Cleveland. There was an older G. Seaton Wasser, who was president and treasurer of the Wasser Coal Company of Akron in 1924. Maybe an uncle or grandfather?

The younger G. Seaton Wasser was born in 1901, graduated Kenyon College 1923, and was living in Pittsburgh in 1950. I can't conclusively identify that person as the radio station manager, though. G. Seaton died in Pinellas, Florida on July 13, 1977. Maybe that will help someone bring up an obituary. He was a Psi Upsilon, another potential lead.

Laura

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
>
> In Broadcasting News magazine, there's a picture of Pete Wasser at the 1947 NAB Golf Tournament, described as "ex-KQV".
>
> Wasser left as G.M. of KQV in 1947, started Pete Wasser Co., which became Wasser Kay Phillips in Pittsburgh. Historically, KQV has been the most prominent radio station in Pittsburgh after KDKA. Can't find anything (yet) to indicate when Wasser left Pittsburgh.
>
> I'll go to Pittsburgh Central Office and see if he was involved in the Steering Committee or was Secretary of a group.
>
> His father was a prominent dentist in the Cleveland area. Good chance his father was G. Seaton Wasser of Kirtland, Ohio, same town east of Cleveland where the Mormons erected their first Temple.
>
> Can't find Pete's obituary. Tried Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Tennessee papers.
>
> john lee
> pittsburgh
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
> >
> > Pete Wasser, who wrote "Rum, Radio and Rebellion" in the stories at the back of the Big Book (2nd ed. p. 317, 3rd ed. p. 356) says in that story that he was born in Cleveland, OHIO, and was living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when he first contacted A.A.
> >
> > Pete wrote an update of his story for the January 1968 issue of the A.A. Grapevine entitled "No Graduation from AA!" which says at the end that it was written in Cleveland, TENNESSEE, a little town which had a population of only 20,000 at the time:
> >
> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/717
> >
> > Did the Grapevine make a mistake?
> >
> > It also seems to me that "Pete" may have been just a nickname. He seems to be the same man as the one who shows up a number of times on a Google search in the history of radio stations in the United States under the name:
> >
> > G. S. "Pete" Wasser
> >
> > What more do we know about this person?
> >
>
| 9079|9068|2013-03-03 09:41:41|James Bliss|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
On 2/25/2013 9:55 AM, J. Michael Gilbreath wrote: When electronically archiving electronic documents like the emails in this group, what are the relative advantages and/or disadvantages to 1) storing in a database 2) saving as individual plain text files 3) creating either individual or multi page PDF docs?

- - - -

Let me address what I perceive as the pros and cons of each:

1) A database provides a robust method of searching for specific records and phrases, and reports can be written across the database data. All of this takes time a some technical skills.

The true negative of this is that database 'engines' change over time. It is possible that the database 'engine' might change significantly enough that the older formats are no longer supported and the data may be stuck with an older technology that may not work in the future. This would require regular updates to the database engine to maintain future access to the database engine.

2) Individual plain text files. If they are saved as ASCII files this is probably the most uniform and longest potential life for the files. This format is probably not going away for quite some time since it is a basic building block on which so many other things are built. But, with all technology, this can change.

The negatives are that the format has limitations for searching and viewing the text in a formatted layout beyond what basic ASCII text allows (tabs, line feeds are available but bolding, italics, etc. are not). Searching is limited to the individual text editor or ability to search files for a specific text string. Some fancy searches are available with certain tools which allow for the use of 'regular expressions'.

3) The PDF format is nice for some searching. It also allows for formatted text in the documents (which might include the conversion of the HTML characters to a nice formatted layout - not sure but this should exist). The down side is that the format might change in the future and these documents might need to be converted.

Now, with that said, a big caveat is that technology changes over time. Any of these three could run into issues with future compatibility with each having different degrees of this likelihood occurring (database engines are consistently changed for example while ASCII text does not and PDF seems pretty standardized).

The bigger question is the ability to store on a media which will last, and the equipment being available in the future. I remember when CD writers were new. We now have DVD and BlueRay writers. In the older days (and some still are used) tapes drives were used for backups. Many of those tape formats are not longer supported although you could probably find someone with the equipment who would copy the files to a newer media. This area of media to store the data on while probably result in the need to regularly copy and update to newer media over time.

These comments are based upon the potential of archiving material for 100 or more years and are completely dependent upon what may or may not occur with technology in the future.

Just a few thought off of the top of my head and had been considered in another email regarding archiving this material.

Jim
| 9080|9068|2013-03-03 09:47:11|Tom Pasek|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
To a great extent this depends on the anticipated use (or uses) of the data. One of the problems that this group has is that there are not any particularly good key words that could be used in a search. Unlike my business system, if I want to find everything that I have on a particular customer, all I need to do is search for XYZ Corporation and it is all there with nothing that is irrelevant. That would not be our case here.

Addressing your three options, let's look at them one at a time:

=============================================
1) DATABASE

a. Pros
i. Easily searchable, but as I mentioned above, using what search terms?
ii. Huge capacity
iii. Space efficient
iv. Can include non-text data
v. Can include links to either internal or external databases and resources
vi. Can be made inalterable

b. Cons
i. Somebody needs to input the data
ii. Not easily automated (but partially doable)
iii. Group access would require strong security measures and a very thoughtful implementation
=============================================
2) INDIVIDUAL PLAIN TEXT FILES (I am assuming that you are essentially saying saving the emails as emails)

a. Pros
i. It is simple to do
ii. Requires almost no human input
iii. Is universally readable and will be for many, many years

b. Cons
i. Does not contribute to the "searchability" factor
ii. Increases required storage space due to headers, footers, and unnecessary data in signature blocks
iii. Data can be easily altered
iv. Precludes non-text data
=============================================
3) PDF CONVERSIONS

a. Pros
i. Universally readable
ii. Can be made to be inalterable
iii. Anything can be scanned into it

b. Cons
i. Can be manpower intensive
ii. "Searchability" for non-text entries (i.e. photocopies of Bill's discharge papers from Town's Hospital or other photographs, etc.) would be difficult
iii. Not space efficient
=============================================

I suspect that others will have varying opinions on this matter, but it seems to me that a database is probably the way to go.

Tom Pasek, CEO
Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC
2521 Innisfree Drive
Bakersfield, California 93309-4356
661.654.9116 (Phone)
| 9081|9068|2013-03-03 10:13:55|Tom Pasek|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
I concur with all of your comments. If I am interpreting them correctly, we agree that the database approach is the most useful and flexible, but has the limitation of long-term retrievability - something ultimately true with anything. That aspect keeps bringing me back to an online provider that would keep formats updated as part of the service.

Tom Pasek
| 9082|9082|2013-03-03 10:20:35|joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net|Early speaker recordings of Dr. Silkworth and Dr. Tiebout|
Has anyone came across or have knowledge of early speaker recordings of Dr. William Silkworth and Dr. Harry Tiebout? Especially, speaking on the topics of Alcoholism, Doctor's Opinion, and Alcoholics Anonymous.

The MSCA 09 Archives Committee is putting together an 2013 Open House theme of "More Voices: Early Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous."

We have recordings of Rev. Sam Shoemaker, Sister Ignatia, and Father Dowling already to use for our 2013 Open House, since they were influential people in in Bill Wilson's life, his talks, and his writings.

Any assistance would be gratefully helpful in our task to "Carry the Message" throught our Archives presentations we present to the Fellowship of the Mid-Southern California Area 09.

Joseph H.,
Highland, California
| 9083|9083|2013-03-03 10:23:45|joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net|Early speaker recordings of Dr. Silkworth and Dr. Tiebout |
Has anyone came across or have knowledge of early speaker recordings of Dr. William Silkworth and Dr. Harry Tiebout? Especially, speaking on the topics of Alcoholism, Doctor's Opinion, and Alcoholics Anonymous.

The MSCA 09 Archives Committee is putting together an 2013 Open House theme of "More Voices: Early Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous."

We have recordings of Rev. Sam Shoemaker, Sister Ignatia, and Father Dowling already to use for our 2013 Open House, since they were influential people in in Bill Wilson's life, his talks, and his writings.

Any assistance would be gratefully helpful in our task to "Carry the Message" through our Archives presentations we present to the Fellowship of the Mid-Southern California Area 09.

Joseph H.,
Highland, California
| 9084|9041|2013-03-03 10:29:42|brian koch|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
From Brian Koch and Peter Funny T-Shirt

- - - -

From: brian koch <kochbrian@hotmail.com>
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

I as well would join such a petition and am in agreement with this group considering it our responsibility. History is not selective and subject to editing.

Blessings,
Brian

- - - -

From: Peter <peter@funnytshirtoutlet.com>
(peter at funnytshirtoutlet.com)

I agree!

==================================
Brian, Tim, Glenn, others --

I will be happy to join in a petition effort requesting that G.S.O. not edit any stories that appeared in the Big Book without the author's explicit approval. In my opinion, such editing amounts to the virtual destruction of an historical document and approaches a violation of honesty. I would hope, in fact, that the A.A. History Lovers group consider whether such an effort may not be part of its responsibility to A.A. history.

On the other hand, I do think that the General Service Conference has the right and responsibility to determine which complete stories will appear in any new edition of the Big Book.

Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.
==================================
| 9085|9041|2013-03-03 10:37:42|Ernie Kurtz|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
From Ernie Kurtz and Jeff Bruce

- - - -

From: Ernie Kurtz <kurtzern@umich.edu> (kurtzern at umich.edu)

Good point, but from what I know of the first two editions (1939, 1955), the storytellers had the opportunity to review and approve them. For the first edition, that is hearsay from Clarence Snyder. For the second edition, hearsay from Nell Wing and the gentleman who headed the AA Grapevine in the late 1970s, whose name I forget. (I wish Brown University was closer!)

ernie kurtz

===============================================
On Feb 27, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:

I would not disagree with Ernie, but the stories were supposed to have been edited before they were originally published.
===============================================

- - - -

From: Jeff Bruce <aliasjb@gmail.com> (aliasjb at gmail.com)

Wouldn't it be interesting to know whose decision it is to make meaningful and not-widely-announced changes. Does anyone here know, for example, who made the decision to add Dr. Silkworth's name at the end of "Dr's Opinion" after Silkworth died? Was this a serious breach of anonymity, or did he request that his name be added after his death?
| 9086|9056|2013-03-03 11:09:07|Tom Hickcox|Re: What was the test on page 163 of the Big Book?|
I quoted from a 1st/5th Printing and it is the same in the 10th, 12th, and 13th Printings in my possession.

Apparently, it was changed at some point. Maybe someone with access to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Printings can tell us when.

Tommy in Danville
_______________________________________

From Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

I COUNT AT LEAST THREE CHANGES IN THE WORDING:

The original manuscript as reproduced in Silkworth.net at
http://www.silkworth.net/originalmanuscript/chapter8.html#towives
says in the chapter "To Wives":

"About a year ago a certain state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all."

I have a 1st edit., 13th printing (February 1950), and the chapter "To Wives" says on page 127:

"For several years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two state hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse whatever -- none of them have returned to the asylum."

I also have a 2nd ed., 9th printing (1967), where the words have been changed yet again. The chapter "To Wives" now says on page 114:

"For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned."
_______________________________________

On 2/27/2013 17:32, Jeff Bruce wrote:
> I am looking at a reprint of a first printing, first edition on page 127 (which is the equivalent of page 114 in later editions). The language is:
>
> "About a year ago a certain state institution released four chronic
> alcoholics. It was fully expected they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had no relapse at all. The power of God goes deep."
>
> This is totally different from the words you are giving. Where exactly did you get the words you quote below?
_______________________________________

> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/26/2013 16:45, gentilsa wrote: Page 163 3rd paragraph:
>>> "Our friend proceeded to tell him. And with such good effect that doctor agreed to a test among his patients and certain other alcoholics from the clinic which he attends."
>> - - - -
>>
>> Look on p. 114. They talk about alcoholics worked with in institutions and their successes, "The majority have never returned" (to the asylums).
>>
>> The First Edition has the story a bit differently. "During 1939 two state hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had
>> no rela
| 9087|9041|2013-03-03 11:12:53|Patrick Murphy|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
Another thing that didn't help keep the Clarence Snyder / Home Brewmeister story in the 4th Edition was that it was slanted to impress his wife who was divorcing him at the time. He had Jim Scott ("The News Hawk" -- newspaperman from Akron) write it for him and load it with all the wonderful things that Clarence was then doing so he could get back in the house/big bedroom.

Undoubtedly, Clarence did a lot of good things for the advancement of AA in the early years, but he just couldn't ever 'interview' all that well.

I met him in 1972 (a year after Bill died) when he was traveling across the country telling of his 'founding of AA'. Notice he waited til Bill died. He even sent an advance-picture of himself (no shadow) sitting in a high back chair holding the Big Book to the town newspaper to be printed the day he was to 'appear' there.

Like I said....he just couldn't get out of the 'wanna-be' mode.

-Patrick Murphy
| 9088|9088|2013-03-03 11:13:57|B|Dr. C Dudley Saul and others|
Friends,

As you may know or not know, I am the gravehunter of AA's early pioneers and influential friends. Part of my search has led me to the three wonderful Doctors of Philadelphia, whose tireless support, openmindedness and dedication to the sick and suffering were instrumental in the founding and flourishing of AA in the Philadelphia area. They are:

Dr. A Weise Hammer
Dr. John Franklin Stauffer
Dr. C. Dudley Saul

I have found grave locations for all. Dr.'s Hammer and Saul are buried in West Laurel Cemetery in Bala Cynwyd PA, near Philadelphia, while Dr. Stauffer is in Mountain View cemetery in Bristol VA.

This post is about Dr. Saul primarily. While he is buried in West Laurel, it is, in essence, in a pauper's, and unmarked grave. Officially he is "Consigned to Earth". The cemetery knows the location of the remains but cannot reveal them to just an interested seeker of history. Austensiably the reasoning is that someone related might come forward and want the remains moved to a more proper location. I am still a little vague on their reasoning, but respect their right to have policies.

Dr Saul, with Dr. C. Nelson Davis also buried in West Laurel, founded the Malvern institute in Malvern PA. Originally the C. Dudley Saul Clinic, i am linking to the history portion of the Malvern website here: http://www.malverninstitute.com/alumni-history/

I am attempting to contact Malvern so they could possibly acknowledge the slight to Dr. Saul's memory. I am hoping they will feel compelled in some way to honor a man who has meant so much to recovery in the Philadelphia area.

Blessings,

Brian
| 9089|9053|2013-03-03 11:15:08|John Barton|Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
I have to go back and check so I can cite the source but I believe Mike is correct. The Chicago Central Office was in place before Cleveland and thus would be considered "the first" Central Office

God Bless,
John B.
| 9090|9090|2013-03-03 11:36:19|rsmith77379|The AA movie Dawn of Hope|
Searching the archives, I can find a few mentions of the movie, "Dawn of Hope" from about 5-6 years ago. But they basically refer to some groups showing the movie. Can anyone shed any light on the following?

1) While Smitty and Sue (Smith)Windows are interviewed in the movie, what was their role in producing it?
2) Was this movie ever released?
3) Is it still available anywhere?
4) Are there any "stories" behind it?

Thanks
Dick S Houston Texas
| 9091|9091|2013-03-03 11:37:22|hjfree2001|Old Timers selection at AA International in Atalnta|
It was recently reported at the Old Timers Panel during the Kentucky State Convention that the years sobriety will be bumped to 50 to be selected to speak at the Atlanta AA International. Our delegate confirmed that it has been "board approved."
| 9092|7042|2013-03-03 11:54:41|royslev|Re: Who were the psychiatrists Rowland H. saw?|
I agree that this rumor ought to be put to rest. I give Big Book workshops and studies and often refer to AA History which I learn from the real AA historians, such as Glenn, Art S., Jay S., and others, often members of this group.

People are often passing on anecdotal stories which sound plausible and interesting, but which have no basis or historical research to back them up (see Susan Cheever's word of mouth indictment of Bill W.'s "13th step" activities in her biography, I'm not saying it wasn't true, I'm just saying her sources were all hearsay from old timers).

Clancy I who is, like myself, an AA history buff (as opposed to a real historian like Glenn) has been saying for years that Rowland Hazard tried to see Freud before he went to see Jung.

I actually called Clancy on the phone while he was down at his Midnight Mission in Los Angeles and asked him for his sources for this allegation.

I thought he might cite a conversation with a Hazard family member or other biography of Rowland (he did have lunch with Lois and asked her about early AA history).

Clancy told me that he was told this story about Rowland "calling up Freud" first by an old timer from the Akron area, who was told this by Dr. Bob.

Well great. More hearsay. Is this at all likely? How much contact would Dr. Bob have had with Rowland Hazard? Rowland was on the East Coast while Bob was in the Akron area. They were both Oxford Groupers, but is this tale plausible? Let alone proveable.

That's why I'm often on this history lovers' group posting questions. Before I use AA history for my book studies and workshops, I like to check my facts and not just pass on hearsay.

I think I read somewhere on this site that there may be a biography of Rowland Hazard out there somewhere. Let me know about it please, if there is.

=======================================
[From G.C. the moderator:

See Cora Finch, "Stellar Fire: Carl Jung, a New England Family, and the Risks of Anecdote" at
http://www.hindsfoot.org/jungstel.pdf

Also see Cora Finch, "Additional Notes to Stellar Fire" at
http://www.hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf including
1. Remarks from Dr. Jung
2. Correspondence with Bill Wilson
3. Loose Ends
4. About William James

That's about 70 pages worth total which Cora has written on this topic, equivalent to at least a short book on Rowland Hazard.

Also see the journal article by Amy Colwell Bluhm Ph.D. Working totally independently, she discovered the very same letters in the Hazard family papers and published her article "Verification of C.G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006.]
=======================================

Regards to all, I love this site

Roy L. a.k.a. "a miracle of mental health" class of `78
home email: royslev@verizon.net

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> Quite possibly George Porter and Kristine Mann were the two [American]
psychiatrists Rowland is supposed to have seen before he saw Jung.
>
> SEE LAST PARAGRAPH IN CORA FINCH'S MESSAGE BELOW
> _____________________________________________
>
> > From: corafinch@...
> > Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010
> > Subject: Re: Who were the psychiatrists Rowland H. saw?
> >
> > Roy Levin wrote: "Clancy I. of Los Angeles relates (I've heard him more than once) that Rowland H. did not arrange to see Dr. Jung, until AFTER Dr. Freud and Dr. Adler turned him down (or said they were too busy to see him). Is there any evidence to support such statements?"

> > I think there is enough information available to put that one to rest. Amy Bluhm went over most of the material that I did, and in addition she had some letters from another part of the family. It was clear that Rowland went to
Europe specifically to be analyzed by Jung. He wasn't just looking for any famous European psychiatrist.
> >
> > Rowland's cousin Leonard Bacon had met several people in Jung's circle of American followers (at this point, the number was still fairly small) when he lived in California during the early 1920s. Leonard went through a depressive episode in 1925 and was persuaded by these friends to go to Zurich to be analyzed. He in turn persuaded Rowland to go, the next year.
> >
> [GEORGE PORTER & CHRISTINE MANN:]
> >
> > A college friend of Rowland, George Porter, was a devoted disciple of Jung, so Leonard Bacon enlisted Porter's help in encouraging Rowland to go. Leonard also arranged for Rowland to have lunch with Kristine Mann, an analyst trained by Jung and then practicing in New York. So no, I don't think Rowland had time to consider anyone other than Jung.
| 9093|9056|2013-03-03 11:56:44|Tom Hickcox|Re: What was the test on page 163 of the Big Book?|
> Glenn Chesnut said: I also have a 2nd ed., 9th printing (1967), where the words have been changed yet again. The chapter "To Wives" now says on page 114:
>
> "For years we have been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind. The majority have never returned."

This change was effected in the 2nd Ed/1st Printing.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9094|9082|2013-03-03 12:03:42|Tom Hickcox|Pronunciation of Tiebout?|
On 3/3/2013 13:17, joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Has anyone came across or have knowledge of early speaker recordings of Dr. William Silkworth and Dr. Harry Tiebout?

Having lived in Louisiana for nearly sixty years, I have assumed the
pronunciation of Dr. Tiebout's name was "tee-bo."

Is this correct?

Tommy H in Danville, Ky, not La.
| 9095|9082|2013-03-03 12:06:43|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Pronunciation of Tiebout?|
See message #2803 from Glenn Chesnut et al:

From Sally Brown who is the expert on Marty Mann: Dr. Harry Tiebout's last name
was pronounced TEE boh, to rhyme with "we go."

TEE as in cup of "tea," honey "bee," lock and "key," have mercy on "me."

BOH as in "bow" and arrow, friend or "foe," "go" with the "flow," biscuit
"dough."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

SALLY BROWN:

Sally is the expert on Tiebout. One of the very best books on AA history
published in the last few years is Sally Brown and David R. Brown, "A Biography
of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous," Hazelden, 2001. The
story of how Marty got together with Dr. Tiebout is as follows:

Marty was admitted to Blythewood sanitarium at the end of June 1938. Harry
Tiebout, M.D., was the director of the sanitarium. In early 1939, one of those
pre-publication manuscripts of the Big Book was sent to him (see Sally and David
Brown's book pp. 94-97 and 103-104). Although Dr. Tiebout was at home in bed
with a very bad cold, he was so impressed by what he was reading, that he had
them bring Marty over to see him. Lying in his bed, he handed her the manuscript
and ordered her to start reading it and then come to him to talk about it after
she had finished reading each section.

It was this multilithed manuscript of the Big Book which Marty finally saw lying
open on her bed with the raised black letters spelling out "WE CANNOT LIVE WITH
ANGER" (pp. 107-108 in Sally and David Brown's book and p. 206 in "Women Suffer
Too" in the 4th edition of the Big Book).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Email to me from: "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005

Hi, Glenn - I just replayed one of the 50+ Marty Mann tapes we accumulated in
our research for her biography. Her pronunciation of Harry Tiebout's name is
definitely "Tee-bo." If anybody would know, it's Marty. He was her psychiatrist
from July 1938. A few months later he learned about AA and was responsible for
getting Marty connected with that infant organization in NYC. As time went on,
Tiebout also became her close friend and colleague until he died in 1966.

Marty mentions Tiebout by name on a number of our tapes. This particular
reference is an extended interview of Marty by George Gordon for the AA
archives, July 13, 1976.

Have a happy Thanksgiving! Sally

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

FOR FURTHER CORROBORATION:

From: "Ernest Kurtz" kurtzern@umich.edu

In many conversations with Nell Wing, she always pronounced it "Tee'-beau."

ernie kurtz

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From "Mel Barger" melb@accesstoledo.com

Mel played a major role in writing the Bill W. biography "Pass It On." He got
sober himself in 1950 and (especially while researching that book) talked with a
large number of the original AA people.

He says, "I've always thought the Tiebout name should be pronounced TEE-BOW,
with the emphasis on the first syllable."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From Glenn Chesnut:

I checked last night with an old timer named Larry W., who is a psychotherapist
(so that he has always been very interested in Tiebout) and who had Ernie Gerig
(Ernie G. the second of Toledo) as his sponsor, so that he knows a good deal
about early Akron AA.

Larry says that Ernie G. and the other Akron good old timers always pronounced
the doctor's name as TEE-boh, with a heavy accent on the first syllable.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Cora Finch" corafinch@yahoo.com

Harry Tiebout Jr., a philosophy professor at the University of Illinois, was a
friend of my parents and his son was a friend of my brother. We attended the
same church. The only pronunciation I ever heard was tea- (as in the beverage),
-bow (as in bow and arrow).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

P.S. It's not helpful to just tell people that Tiebout's name was pronounced
TEE-bow, because in English the word bow is pronounced in two different ways
depending on its meaning: "bow and arrow" (where bow rhymes with go and hoe and
Beau and sew) as opposed to "the bow of a ship" (where bow is pronounced so as
to rhyme with how, cow, now, bough, and thou).

Once again an example of the way English spelling and pronunciation drives
non-English speakers crazy.

I should add however that one reason for what seems like an odd pronunciation of
Tiebout's name is that it is a Dutch surname, where Dutch has its own
pronunciation rules. I have read that Tiebout is the Dutch form of the old name
Theobald, a name which I remember shows up as a common first name in certain
medieval manuscripts.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator (South Bend, Indiana)
| 9096|9054|2013-03-08 10:05:13|Arthur S|Re: Why not a state/province system instead of numbered Areas?|
A short history of the General Service Conference and Structure:

Class A trustees Leonard Harrison and Bernard B Smith resolved a 5-year
conflict between Bill W and the Alcoholic Foundation Board on having a
General Service Conference. Smith, who Bill W would later call "the
architect of the service structure" chaired a trustee's committee that
recommended that Conferences be held on an experimental basis from
1951-1954, and that in 1955 it would be evaluated and a final decision made.
The recommendation was approved at the Board's Fall 1950 meeting. In
November 1950 a pamphlet titled "Your Third Legacy Will You Accept It" was
published to explain the Conference plans and procedures. Bill W also wrote
a December 1950 Grapevine article titled "Your Third Legacy."

The Alcoholic Foundation invited 1 Conference delegate from each of the then
48 States and the Canadian Provinces. 7 states with large AA populations
were assigned additional delegates. Delegates were divided into 2 Panels so
that half would be elected and half would rotate in odd and even numbered
years. Panel 1 areas were asked to form a temporary committee to organize an
election assembly no later than March 1951. Bill W traveled across the US
attending over 2 dozen assemblies electing area committees and Conference
Delegates.

Area assemblies were first held just for the election of area officers and a
delegate. Group Representatives (later called General Service
Representatives) who attended, placed an "A" next to their name on the
registration form to indicate they were available to serve on the area
committee. The first item of assembly business was to create an area map
divided into districts. This determined the number of Committeemen to be
elected. Committeemen later came to be called Committee Members and then
District Committee Members (or DCMs).

The entire assembly voted in the election of Committeemen which ended when a
nominee received at least 25% of the votes cast. The first 3 Committeemen
elected automatically became the Area Chair, Treasurer and Secretary in that
order. The delegate election required a 2/3 majority of the votes cast. If
it could not be obtained, the delegate was chosen by lot from among all the
Committeemen whether they were standing for the delegate election or not.
Each area determined the number of times to vote prior to settling the
election by lot. Needless to say, much has changed since then.

On April 20, 1951 - 37 US and Canadian delegates (half the planned number)
convened at the Commodore Hotel in NYC as the 1st Panel of the General
Service Conference. Bernard B Smith presided. 15 Trustees and 10 staff
members from the NY Office and Grapevine joined the Conference as voting
members. On April 23, 1952, Panel 2 (consisting of 38 additional delegates)
joined with Panel 1 for the first Conference of all 75 Delegates attending.
The first women Delegates joined Panel 2 (Lois A of Barre, VT and Fay B of
Bismarck, ND).

Board Chairman, Bernard B Smith, reported to the 1953 Conference that the
corporate name of "Works Publishing" had been changed to "Alcoholics
Anonymous Publishing." The first Conference-approved book to be distributed
under the new publishing name was the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions."
The 1953 Conference recommended that a pamphlet be developed to clarify the
duties and responsibilities related to General Services. It was published in
December 1953 under the title "Your Role in the General Service Conference."
The pamphlet explained the duties and responsibilities of Group Members,
Group Representatives, Area Committeemen and Conference Delegates. It also
contained the first structure diagram of the General Service Conference.

The 1954 Conference unanimously approved the renaming of the 15-member
Alcoholic Foundation to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous.
The renaming took place in October 1954. The Conference also approved
renaming the Group Representative to General Service Representative to be
the voice of the group conscience in General Service matters. The General
Service Representative was to be listed in the AA Directory instead of the
Group Secretary.

The 1955 Conference convened in St Louis, MO on June 26-29 and again on July
3. 75 Delegates unanimously recommended adoption of a permanent Conference
Charter subject to the approval of the 2nd International Convention that
would convene in St Louis on July 1.

AA's 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention was held in St Luis'
Kiel Auditorium from July 1-3, 1955. Estimated attendance was 3,800. Its
theme was "Coming of Age." This historic convention introduced a new circle
and triangle symbol prominently displayed on a large banner draping the back
of the stage. Bill W later wrote in AA Comes of Age (139) that the circle
represented the whole of AA and the triangle represented AA's 3 Legacies of
Recovery, Unity and Service. The 2pm Sunday afternoon meeting was designated
as the "Last Session of the General Service Conference." It is the only time
in the history of the Conference that it has been opened to the
participation of AA members. At the invitation of Chairman Bernard B Smith,
Bill W made some introductory remarks and presented a resolution to the
attendees to approve the General Service Conference. The resolution was
unanimously approved.

The permanent Conference Charter has 12 Articles, the 12th of which is
called "The General Warranties of the Conference" or just "Warranties" for
short. The 6 Warrantees in Article 12 are a condensed version of the
Traditions to ensure that the Conference always functions in the spirit of
the Traditions. In 1962, the General Warranties of the Conference formed
Concept 12 of the Twelve Concepts for World Service.

Compared to 1955, when there were 8 Conference Committees, today there are
13. There were over 6,200 AA groups in 1955, today there are well over
100,000. Worldwide. AA membership was around 136,000 in 1955, today it is
well over 2 million. There were 75 areas in the US and Canada in 1955, today
there are 93. AA is in over 180 countries. Multiple Conference structures
and over 60 autonomous General Service Offices exist world-wide. World
services are still linked by the same primary and single purpose that
started the AA Fellowship in 1935 - to carry a message to a still-suffering
alcoholic - the big difference today is that we do so in over 150 different
languages.

Cheers

Arthur

__________________________________________

From: "david93may" david93may@yahoo.com.au
(david93may at yahoo.com.au)

When the General Service Structure was first created with its
Group => District => Area => Conference structure,
was there any consideration given to having a Federated system with a group
conscience in each State / Province, rather than the numbered Area system
that eventuated?

That way, instead of the 93 Areas in the present North American system:

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/aasite_finder.cfm?origpage=72

http://www.aa.org/pics_gen/en_us-canada_areamap.gif

there would be only the 50 U.S. states (plus Puerto Rico, District of
Columbia, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and the Northern
Mariana Islands) and Canada's 10 provinces (and 3 territories).

That would be a total of only 60 states/provinces (plus however the smaller
units were counted).

If this was discussed back at the time, what were the reasons for not having
a federated system?

Thanks, David
Melbourne, Australia
| 9097|7851|2013-03-08 14:13:57|funen99|Marty Mann, Twice I Sought Death|
Marty Mann - New York, New York
As heard on The Bob Edwards Show, May 15, 2009

I am an alcoholic--one of the fortunate ones who found the road to recovery. That was thirteen years ago, but I haven't forgotten. I remember what it was like to be hopelessly in the grip of the vicious disease of alcoholism, not knowing what was wrong with me. I remember my desperate search for help. Failing to find it, I remember my inner despair--my outer defiance. I remember the arrogance and pride with which I faced the non-understanding world, in spite of my terrible hidden fears--my fear of life and my fear of death. At times I feared life so much more than death that twice I sought death. Suicide seemed a welcome release from a terror and agony past bearing.

How grateful I am now that I didn't succeed. But I believed in nothing, then. Not in myself, nor in anything outside myself. I was walled in with my suffering--alone and, I thought, forsaken.

But I wasn't forsaken, of course. No one is, really. I seemed to suffer alone, but I believe now that I was never alone--that none of us are. I believe, too, that I was never given more to bear than I could endure, but rather that my suffering was necessary, for me. I believe it may well have taken that much suffering, in my case, to break down my wall of self, to crush my arrogance and pride, to let me seek and accept the help that was there.

For in the depths of my suffering I came to believe. To believe that there was a Power greater than myself that could help me. To believe that because of that Power--God--there was hope and help for me.

I found my help through people--doctors whose vocation it is to deal with suffering, and other human beings who had suffered like myself. In the depths of my personal abyss I received understanding and kindness and help from many individuals. People, I learned, can be very kind. I came to believe deeply in this--in people and the good that is in them.

I came to realize that suffering is universal. It lies behind much apparent harshness and irritability, many of the careless, even cruel, words and acts which make our daily lives difficult so much of the time. I learned that if I could understand this, I might not react so often with anger or hurt. And if I
learned to react to difficult behaviour with understanding and sympathy, I might help to bring about a change in that behaviour. My suffering helped me to know things.

I do not believe that everyone should suffer. But I do believe that suffering can be good, and even necessary, if--and only if--one learns to accept that suffering as part of one's essential learning process, and then to use it to help oneself and one's fellow sufferers.

Don't we all endure suffering, one way or another? This fact gives me a deep sense of kinship with other people and a consequent desire to help others in any and every way I can.

It is this belief that underlies my work, for alcoholism is the area in which I feel best fitted, through my own experience, to help others. And I believe that trying to help my fellow men is one of the straightest roads to spiritual growth. It is a road everyone can take. One doesn't have to be beautiful or gifted, or rich or powerful, in order to offer a helping hand to one's fellow sufferers. And I believe that one can walk with God by doing just that.

Marty Mann was one of the first women to join Alcoholics Anonymous. She founded the National Committee on Alcoholism in 1944, now known as the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD). Born into a wealthy Chicago family, Mann worked as a magazine editor, art critic and photographer.
_____________________________________________________

http://www.bobedwardsradio.com/blog/2009/5/16/dan-gediman-marty-mann-and-this-i-believe.html

Date: Sat, May 16, 2009
Dan Gediman, Marty Mann and This I Believe

Each week Bob is joined by Dan Gediman, the Executive Director of This I Believe, Inc. to discuss one of the original essays from the 1950s radio series. This week�s featured essay is by a female journalist named Marty Mann, who became the first woman get sober and stay sober thanks to Alcoholics Anonymous. Click here to read a transcript and hear the audio of Marty Mann�s �This I Believe� essay:

http://thisibelieve.org/essay/16782/
| 9098|9091|2013-03-08 14:25:24|J.BARRY Murtaugh|Re: Old Timers selection at AA International in Atalnta|
From Barry Murtaugh and Dick S.

- - - -

Original message from <hjfree@fuse.net> (hjfree at fuse.net)
> It was recently reported at the Old Timers Panel during the Kentucky State
> Convention that the years sobriety will be bumped to 50 to be selected to
> speak at the Atlanta AA International. Our delegate confirmed that it has
> been "board approved."

- - - -

From: "J.BARRY Murtaugh" <murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com>
(murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)

So that means....?

I'll have to wait until I'm 86 (2030) to put my name in the box. Hope I'm still around for that one.

bear
773-851-2100

- - - -

From: "rsmith77379" <kk500@comcast.net>
(kk500 at comcast.net)

This selection bar, and others like it regionally and locally, are just a plot
designed to be one jump ahead of your sobriety .

dick S
Houston
| 9099|8877|2013-03-08 14:42:17|mlkerrigan|Re: AMA recognition and designation of alcoholism as a Disease|
Both the 1956 and 1971 AMA resolutions can be found online in the AMA archives: http://ama.nmtvault.com/jsp/browse.jsp?useDefault=true&sort_col=date&collection_filter=Digest+of+Official+Actions

This is the link to the 1956 resolution, it doesn't say "disease" or "illness!" it says "sick," and the emphasis in the idea that acute intoxication is a medical emergency and hospitals should admit.


http://ama.nmtvault.com/jsp/viewer2.jsp?doc_id=Digest+of+Official+Actions%2Fama_arch%2FAD100001%2F00000001&page_name=00300017&query1=&collection_filter=Digest+of+Official+Actions&collection_name=Digest%2Bof%2BOfficial%2BActions&search_doc=alcoholism&zoom_factor=current

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Markle wrote:
>
> I do not have dates, but only my somewhat limited memory. However, Alcoholism (alcohol dependency/abuse -- and those two terms are not the same thing) used to be a reason for disability. However, at some point, one could no longer claim a permanent disability for alcoholism BECAUSE it "can be" treated and reversed (recovery).
>
> I believe I recall that the limits for "temporary disability" . . . during which a person can receive disability payments . . . is two years, during which time a person is expected to receive treatment and "recover". There were some other modifications, but I have been "retired" too long and don't recall what they were/are any more.
>
> More importantly, it's vital, I still believe, to keep politics, professional diagnosis and treatment, separate and distinct from AA. While they may be similar in some respects and may "cooperate" with each other, there is a line over which we (AA) dare not cross.
>
> Remembering also that AA is worldwide, but diagnosis may differ from location, region, Country or even various professions within a locality. While alcohol has existed, largely the same since the beginning of recorded history, the treatment of "alcoholism" has not. And such continues to change. Ironically, AA has also NOT changed (the 12-Steps/Big Book).
>
> Jon Markle
> Raleigh
> 9.9.82
>
> On Dec 11, 2012, at 9:00 AM, corafinch wrote:
>
> > According to the book Treatment and Rehabilitation of the Chronic Alcoholic, edited by Kissin and Begleiter, 1977,
> >
> > Page 599, in an article by Morris Chafetz and Robert Yeorg: The American Medical Association maintained for some years a Committee on Alcoholism (which today includes drug abuse) as part of its Council on Mental Health. In 1956, this Committee reminded physicians that "alcoholic symptomatology and complications which occur in many personality disorders come within the scope of medical practice. Acute alcoholic intoxication can and often is a medical emergency in the category of a sick individual."
> >
> > (Further down on the same page): The reluctance of many psychiatrists to treat alcoholic people was deplored by the American Psychiatric Association in 1956 when members were told to abandon "therapeutic pessimism" and contribute to "an adequate national attack on alcohol problems which necessarily requires the application of the knowledge of many professionals reinforced by broad citizen support.
> >
> > Page 1, same book: The American Medical Association in 1971 adopted a statement identifying alcoholism as "a complex disease with biological, psychological and sociological components." The author's reference for this is (somewhat oddly) an article by M. C. Todd in the Rhode Island Medical Journal, 1975, "How future physicians must see the alcoholic" 75:390-401.
> >
> > Bill White, on page 188 of Slaying the Dragon, says that the AMA "defined alcoholism in 1952, and in 1956 passed a landmark resolution declaring that chronic alcoholism should not bar admission to a hospital and that the alcoholic should be viewed as a sick person." This differs significantly from the Chafetz description of the resolution (AMA committee vs. AMA, medical emergency if in the context of a sick individual vs. alcoholics should all be regarded as sick) but I can't resolve it as White's reference is to a dissertation. It seems strange that there should be such a discrepancy. I'm sticking to dead-tree sources to avoid anachronism, though, and that does slow me down.
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > FROM THE MODERATOR: Glenn Chesnut
> >
> > On the "alcoholics should all be regarded as sick" position, Nancy Olson, in her book With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism,
> >
> > See http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html
> >
> > has a fascinating section on the judicial battle carried out at one point by some of the AA people in Washington, D.C., to get judges to rule that alcoholics could not be arrested and punished simply for being drunk, since as alcoholics they had no power to do otherwise. The legal argument, which ended up succeeding in some important courts, rested on the old English Common Law, which held that epileptics who had seizures in public could not be arrested and charged for disturbing the peace, because epileptics had no ability to stop having a seizure simply by using will power.
> >
> > A lot of the implications of these court cases never ended up being explored, according to Nancy's book, because the election of Ronald Reagan as president in 1980 resulted in a lot of the things that Senator Harold Hughes had fought for in the 1970 Hughes Act falling by the wayside. Some of this happened due to the failure of Congress to provide funding.
> >
> > Under these new court rulings of the early 1970's (i.e. prior to Ronald Reagan), if alcoholics were apprehended by the government simply because they were drunk in public, in situations where they had committed no other offenses for which they could be put on trial (such as by killing or injuring another person while driving drunk), then -- according to the new rulings -- the government had to send these alcoholics to a proper treatment center instead of tossing them in a jail cell with criminals. But that would mean that the government would have to pay for their time in the treatment center.
> >
> > According to Nancy, after 1980, the new government (under Ronald Reagan) did not want to pay for treatment for alcoholics, so in part, they simply started ignoring the court rulings. The AA people in Washington D.C. became discouraged at that point, and seem to have decided that the forces arrayed against them were so powerful that they might as well give up.
> >
> > Nancy herself left her position in Congress and went off in despair to join a monastery, where she spent a period of time in prayer and mortification.
> >
> > In Nancy's analysis, it was the organized liquor industry which supplied a lot of the political power, circa 1980, in the overturning (or just plain ignoring) of various Congressional legislation and legal rulings which the AA people in Washington had pushed through in the period between 1969 and 1980. But part of it was also the different political philosophy of some of the new Reagan Republicans.
> >
> > One of the things I'm trying to point out here, though, is that the American Medical Association's position was (1) sometimes important at the level of public policy and public institutions, because AMA pronouncements could be used to decree what Veterans Administration hospitals (and hospitals which received public funding) had to do if an alcoholic showed up asking for help.
> >
> > (2) But we should never forget that state legislatures, the U.S. Congress, and the courts all had the power to ignore or completely undermine anything that was said by competent physicians, trained psychiatrists and psychologists, biologists, geologists, astronomers, or any other group of scientifically trained and certified experts.
> >
> > So please remember that something stated by the American Medical Association is not necessarily going to be applied in practice in the United States. Don't over-exaggerate the importance of the AMA.
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jax760" wrote:
> >>
> >> I have just finished reading Nan Robertson's book (Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics Anonymous) and have a question about the AMA (American Medical Association) for the learned members of this forum.
> >>
> >> She states a number of times in her book that the AMA in 1956 classified alcoholism as a "disease". I recall researching this years ago - and reading the actual AMA resolution from 1956 and finding that they called it a serious illness or words to that effect and did not use the word "disease". Can't seem to locate my research from back then. Can someone post the actual resolution - please no debate about semantics. I also seem to recall that is was in the late 60s or early 70s .... perhaps 1972 or even 1976 when the AMA actually used the word "disease" to describe alcoholism and later (late 80s or early 90s) strengthened the definition.
> >>
> >> I think it would be most helpful to AA historians if someone could post a timeline or history of when the AMA, AHA, APA, WHO, etc. "officially" declared alcoholism a "disease" or if possible the text of the various resolutions pertaining to such.
> >>
> >> Thanks and God Bless
>
| 9100|9041|2013-03-08 14:47:42|J. Lobdell|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
From J. Lobdell and Shakey Mike

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

A number of the stories in the 2nd ed were taken from tape and notes and written up fundamentally without their "authors" knowing everything that was going on.

I recall Nancy F. ["Independent Blonde"] was said to be in that category, and I believe Anne C. ["Annie the Copfighter"] was too. I believe the final versions were typed by someone who was a friend of both and had heard their stories told more than once, and Annie at least loved her story as told.

But for all that, they were severely edited, as the others were, by Bill and Tom P. and Ed E. and others. As a professional editor, and as an historian, I support [most] corrections in grammar, but not in tone and style, and certainly not in substance. And I don't think Nancy and Annie should have been dropped from the 3rd ed because they didn't write their own stories [if that was the reason].

But editing in any case should be done by experienced editors, who are alcoholics, and preferably who know the story-tellers and can speak to them. Otherwise, "cleaning up" old stories, or otherwise interfering with one alcoholic talking to another, should be out iof bounds.

I didn't btw meet Nancy until Minneapolis 2000, I think, tho' I heard about her before the 2nd ed was published -- Annie I met at the 167th St Bus Station in NYC sixty years ago, likewise before the 2d ed.

- - - -

From: Shakey Mike <shakey1aa@yahoo.com>
(shakey1aa at yahoo.com)

What is the opinion of the Archives Committee at world services regarding this editing?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you at NAAAW Springfield Illinois
| 9101|9041|2013-03-08 14:49:09|Carlos|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
I also have deep concerns about the editing done on Bill W's last talk when the pamphlets 'the co-founders of AA' and 'the last talks' were combined into one pamphlet. The last line of Bill W's talk was omitted. "I salute you and thank you for your lives." Spiritually speaking this is the most important line in the talk. I wrote to literature@gso.org and received nothing back.
 
Carlos Ballantyne  775-315-3731 cell&text
http://twitter.com/carlosjii
| 9102|9041|2013-03-08 14:50:54|Tom Hickcox|Re: 3rd ed. Freedom from Bondage story altered in 4th ed.|
What are your sources for this?

Tommy H in Danville

- - - -

On 2/28/2013 16:08, Patrick Murphy wrote:
> Another thing that didn't help keep the Clarence Snyder / Home Brewmeister story in the 4th Edition was that it was slanted to impress his wife who was divorcing him at the time. He had Jim Scott ("The News Hawk" -- newspaperman from Akron) write it for him and load it with all the wonderful things that Clarence was then doing so he could get back in the house/big bedroom.
| 9103|9082|2013-03-08 15:45:17|Tom Hickcox|Re: Pronunciation of Tiebout?|
From Tom Hickcox and Sherry Hartsell

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

Or beaux, as we say in La. ;)

> Message #2803 from Glenn Chesnut: the final syllable
> of Dr. Harry Tiebout's last name was pronounced BOH
> as in "bow" and arrow, friend or "foe," "go" with the
> "flow," biscuit "dough."

- - - -

From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

I am no expert on pronunciation of surnames, but have always heard and pronounced it TEE-BO in my 46 yrs of AA attendance; oh yes, though presently living in northeast Texas I was raised partially in Louisiana, my mother was from Louisiana.

Sherry C.H.
| 9104|8376|2013-03-08 15:47:11|catharinebeckerskaggs|Re: Grave found: Harry Zollars, A Close Shave, 1st ed|
You're absolutely correct, John. Harry Derffe? Zollars was born 1890 Ohio, son of a "hard-working blacksmith", just as in the story. The 1900 census for Richland, Holmes Co., Ohio confirms this fact. In 1910 Harry Z and his family are still living in the same place, but by the end of the year, he is married, as per his "story." In 1913, you can find Harry and his wife, Elizabeth in a city directory in Akron, OH, what a coincidence! In 1917-18 Harry registers for WWI draft and in 1920 Hary, his wife and family are living in Jefferson, Coshocto Co., Ohio and they have 5 children by now. In 1930, the Zollars family is living in Orrville, Wayne Co., Ohio and the number of children living at home has grown to 10, just as Harry states in his "story".

However, in 1959, I find Harry and his wife living in Marion, OH:
Harry Zollars
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1959
Street Address: 765 Belief ontaine av
Residence Place: Marion, Ohio
Occupation: Barber
Spouse:
Eliz Zollars
Publication Title: Marion, Ohio, City Directory, 1959

He died at Dunlap Memorial Hospital in Orrville, OH either Dec 10 or Dec 12, 1960 and it depends on if you believe the grave marker or the record of death.

Name: Harry D Zollars
Death Date: 10 Dec 1960
Newspaper: Wooster Daily Record, Wooster, Ohio
Newspaper Date: 10 Dec 1960
Newspaper Page: p. P2
Newspaper Repository: Wayne County Public Library (Wooster); Wayne County Public Library (Wooster)

findagrave.com has his death as Dec 12:
Name: Harry Zollars
Birth Date: 1890
Age at Death: 70
Death Date: 12 Dec 1960
Burial Place: Orrville, Wayne County, Ohio, USA
URL: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-...

I would be more inclined to believe the State of Ohio:
Name: Harry D Zollars
Birth Date: 1890
Gender: Male
Race: White
Residence City: Orrville
Residence County: Wayne
Residence State: Ohio
Residence Country: United States
Death Date: 10 Dec 1960
Hospital of Death: Dunlap Memorial Hospital
City of Death: Orrville
County of Death: Wayne
Certificate: 92555
Age at Death: 70
Certifier: Physician
Autopsy: Yes, used for certification
Marital Status: Widowed
Census Tract: 0000

Thanks, again, for all the history. I just LOVE it!
Cathy

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jax760" wrote:
>
> Thank you Brian,
>
> Many AA history websites have wrong info about Harry, even the Akron Archives website. See below for important historical information that details who Harry was and who he is confused with.
>
> Harry Zollars: "A CLOSE SHAVE" – 1st Edition page 348.
>
> Most web sites and historians have connected Harry Zollars, the Orrville barber, with Henry J. Zoeller a Class "B" Trustee who served in the mid 1950s. See but one example:
>
> http://akronaaarchives.org/history/20henryJ_story.htm
>
> This is in fact an error.
>
> Harry D. Zollars b. 1890 d. December 10, 1960 Orrville, Ohio
>
> Harry D. Zollars, whose birth year matches our friend Harry's in the Big Book, was from Orrville, Ohio (just outside of Akron). He is listed on the First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group:
>
> http://www.hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc
>
> with an Orrville address (Orville [sic] Barber Shop) although the spelling of his name on this list (as well as the names of several others) is incorrect.
>
> Source Info, 1920 United States Federal Census
>
> God Bless,
>
> John B.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:
> >
> > As a continued project of locating final resting places of our pioneers and other influential people to our program and fellowship, I have located the grave of Harry D. Zollars, #27 on the "they counted noses" list of Oct 1937, and sobered March 1937. His story "A Close Shave" appears in the 1st ed of the Big Book.
> >
> > His grave is located in Crown Hill Cemetery, Orrville OH. Sec J, Lot 317, SW 1/4, Grave H. I have a map if anyone would like a copy of it.
> >
> > Blessings,
> >
> > Brian
>
| 9105|9105|2013-03-08 15:48:27|Gregory Harris|Query - The Voice In The Mirror film|
Hello all

Long ago I was remote surfing and caught the last half of this movie "The Voice In The Mirror".  It was about some alcoholics who formed a group in (I believe) New York in the early 40's.  The part of the film i saw was pretty good and I have been unable to locate it and see the whole thing.  Does anyone know of any DVD of this film? Thanks

Greg H. in Illinois
| 9106|9090|2013-03-09 09:51:49|hdmozart|Re: The AA movie Dawn of Hope|
Apparently available from Kent State University Press - I'm going to order a copy:

http://www.kentstateuniversitypress.com/2007/dawn-of-hope/

Dawn of Hope

2007, 30 minutes
ISBN 978-0-87338-932-7
DVD, $13.95

Jack Gieck (Director)

A 30-minute history of the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous in Akron, Ohio, in 1935. AA had its beginnings as the outcome of a meeting between Bill W., a New York stockbroker, and Dr. Bob S., an Akron surgeon. Prior to their meeting, Bill had gotten sober and had maintained his recovery by working with other alcoholics. Meanwhile, Dr. Bob had yet to achieve sobriety. Responding to Bill's convincing ideas, he soon got sober, never to drink again. The founding spark of AA had been struck.

Jack Gieck is a retired engineer. He is past-president of the Canal Society of Ohio and founder of Cinemark, Inc., a producer of technical and historical films including the award-winning video series Ohio's Canal Era. He is the author of the popular A Photo Album of Ohio's Canal Era, 1825–1913 (Kent State University Press, 1992) and Early Akron's Industrial Valley: A History of the Cascade Locks (Kent State University Press, 2008).
| 9107|9082|2013-03-09 10:11:46|Charles Knapp|Re: Early speaker recordings of Dr. Silkworth and Dr. Tiebout|
Greetings

Dr Tiebout spoke at the 1955 and 1960 International Conventions. I believe there was also a recording of him that was made somewhere on the East Coast, but couldn't find it on the internet.

Here is a link to his talk in Long Beach

http://storiesofrecovery.org/Historic.htm

and the St Louis talk

http://www.copykataudio.com/store/products/1955-st-louis-conv-dr-harry-tiebout-anonymity-the-ego-reducerin-st-louis-mo-07-05-1955-cd/

I do not know of any recordings of Dr Silkworth. Because he passed away in 1951 if one existed it would have been from a wire recording or one on a LP
record.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin

________________________________
>From: <joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net>
(joseph_blackwolf at sbcglobal.net)
>Subject: Early speaker recordings of Dr. Silkworth and Dr. Tiebout
>
>Has anyone came across or have knowledge of early speaker recordings of Dr. William Silkworth and Dr. Harry Tiebout? Especially, speaking on the topics of Alcoholism, Doctor's Opinion, and Alcoholics Anonymous.
>
>The MSCA 09 Archives Committee is putting together an 2013 Open House theme of "More Voices: Early Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous."
>
>We have recordings of Rev. Sam Shoemaker, Sister Ignatia, and Father Dowling already to use for our 2013 Open House, since they were influential people in in Bill Wilson's life, his talks, and his writings.
>
>Any assistance would be gratefully helpful in our task to "Carry the Message" throught our Archives presentations we present to the Fellowship of the Mid-Southern California Area 09.
>
>Joseph H.,
>Highland, California
| 9108|9108|2013-03-09 10:17:07|B|Where are you Hank P?|
In the recent chapter of "The Search for Hank P," my wife and I made a daytrip to Pennington New Jersey. Hank spent the last 5 years of his life living there, although he actually passed away in Glenwood Sanitarium in nearby Hamilton Township.

His end of life occupation is listed as Poultry Farmer, most likely "farming" with his son, Henry Jr. As many of you know, there is a story in the local Pennington paper about the fire that destroyed the chicken farm, the day after Hank's "burial." In the body of the story it tells that Hank Sr. was going to install gas brooders to replace the kerosene ones. Having never gotten to this task, the cause of the fire was believed to be a chicken getting too close to the kerosene brooder. (Just like an alcoholic to not get to a task?)

From his death certificate it can be ascertained that his funeral was handled by Blackwell Funeral Home, and his cremation was performed by Ewing Crematorium. We went first to the associated cemetery to the crematorium and upon checking their records, no Henry Parkhurst burial/interment was noted. We were directed to the crematorium across the street. After taking a few photos of the crematorium (which must have looked odd to passersby), we went inside and inquired. The clerk went into a large old safe, unlocked, and pulled out an old ledger book. Henry's cremation was found in the records. We were told that, yes, they did perform the cremation, but that the ashes were returned to the funeral home. We were able to help them correct a database spelling error that had Hank last name incorrectly spelled.

Next stop was Blackwell Funeral Home. Still in business after 103 years, the third generation family member to run the business proved to be quite a gem. Having lived a long and full life, she was vaguely familiar with the chicken farm fire, but did not know any details. She pulled out some more old ledgers and we were able to locate Hank's funeral arrangements (and allowed to take photos of the page in question). $360 total cost of the ceremony, including $300 for a casket. She told us that at times in those days people would forego the casket for cremations, due to price concerns, but that Blackwell prided itself on giving the deceased the dignity deserved, and would not officiate any services not including a casket. Payment was made by Kathleen Parkhurst. It was interesting to watch the director scan the book and recognize her own mother's handwriting in the ledger. The ashes were returned to the family. While there is a date indicated for burial in the ledger, this does not mean he was actually buried on that date, or at all.

We were directed to the Pennington Presbyterian Church and the township cemetery down the street as a possible grave location. In the chilly pre-spring air we walked a grid in the graveyard with no luck finding Hank. Interestingly enough, we did find the grave of Rev A. Kenneth Magner, who officiated Hanks services. So in the end no luck finding any indication that Hank was buried here, or anywhere.

From the pages of the ledger, one interesting fact jumped out at me. At the time of his death, separate addresses are indicated for Hank and Kathleen. While no house numbers are given, they definitely lived on different rural roads in the township/outskirts. Possibly she had enough, he had enough, they both had enough? Their relationship was oft acknowledged to be a stormy one.

The funeral director knows many of the town's elder statesmen, many of them poultry farmers/owners. She is going to put out feelers regarding Hank and I will be interested to see if anyone remembers him. This will most likely not lead to his grave location, if there is one, but could prove to be additional and personal information on one of our pioneers.

We thoroughly enjoyed our day in the quaint village of Pennington, and although we did not "find" Hank, we were able to feel more of the history of our Fellowship and Program.

Blessings,

Brian
| 9109|9061|2013-03-09 10:19:23|barney52278|Re: death of Dolores R., CER Archivist.|
If this is the Dolores I think it is, originally for Kreuzburg and later from Spangdahlem, then I knew her and will miss her greatly.

When I arrived in Germany in the early 80s there wasn't a meeting at Zweibrucken, the closest meeting was Kreuzburg. That's where I met Dolores. Later a guy name Bill (still sober) and I got a meeting started at Zweibrucken. At that time, old-timers were far and few between so Dolores and I shared the same sponsor, a man called Paul. She was feisty then, but mellowed out nicely, seeking out service positions where ever she could. I like that you described her as enthusiastic, for that is what happens when you mix feisty and humble together. God be with her and her family.

Kim


From: charlie.silence
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 1:09 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] death of Dolores R., CER Archivist.

It is with great sadness that I have to tell you that Dolores R, Region Archivist for CER passed away yesterday, Saturday. I believe some here might have known her.

Dolores was dedicated, enthusiastic and above all a good friend. It was Dolores who got me interested in Archives many years ago.

Thanks.
| 9110|9053|2013-03-09 10:42:35|Arthur S|Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
This is interesting.

I still give the edge to Cleveland as the first central office. They had an "AA Association" around the spring/summer of 1939 and a variously named "Central Committee" in 1941 according to Mitchell K whose research and writing I believe should be authoritative.

The Chicago Area Service Office web site states that the office "dates to 1942." Bill W, in AA Comes of Age, states that Chicago was the "first organized local service center" inferring that it began in 1941 after the Saturday Evening Post article was published. I think Bill got the timing wrong.

Info below is extracted from sources.

AA Comes of Age (p. 23) -- "As AA in Chicago slowly grew and prospered, Grace was continually at the business end of Sylvia's phone, and she became the group's first secretary. When the Saturday Evening Post article appeared in 1941, the traffic became very heavy. Sylvia's place became a sort of Chicago Grand Central, and things were just about as rugged with Earl and Katie. Something had to be done. So they rented a one-room office in the Loop, and secretary Grace was installed there to direct the stream of applicants for Twelfth Step attention, hospitalization, or other help. This was A.A.'s first organized local service center, the forerunner of the many Intergroup Associations we maintain in large cities nowadays. Many an AA group within a several hundred-mile radius of Chicago can trace its origin to the work of that center notable early ones being Green Bay, Wisconsin, and
Minneapolis, Minnesota."

Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers (p. 202) -- "Apart from the work with hospital patients, there were other significant developments in Cleveland. In October 1939, Dorothy S informed the New York office that a committee of seven -- five men and two women -- was functioning in the Cleveland area. In addition to being the first central committee, this is said to be the first example of rotation in AA, since one man and one woman dropped off each month to be replaced by the next in line according to seniority. Bill Wilson gave Al G, the first chairman, credit for setting up the principle of rotation in AA, either in the fall of 1939 or upon the later establishment of a more formalized central committee."

Mitchell K, How It Worked (p. 182) "Clarence and 'the boys and girls' were thus very busy during 1941. They were running around, answering inquiries and starting meetings. They were also beginning to form what was probably the first local Central Office of AA. The only other AA office was that of the Alcoholic Foundation in New York City" ... (p. 183) "In the late Spring or early Summer of 1939, the AA Association had been formed in Cleveland so that prospective members could have their hospital and sanitarium bills paid in a timely manner. This Cleveland committee was the forerunner of the Cleveland or Cuyahoga County A/A Committee, or 'Central Committee, ' as it was later called" ... (p. 183) "On March 2, 1941, only one day after the Jack Alexander article appeared in the Saturday Evening Post, a meeting was held in the office of the Cleveland Switchboard Co. The purpose was to form the Cuyahoga County A/A Committee" ... (p. 185) "Dissention continued in Cleveland for several months. A Cleveland Committee did not develop until August of 1941."

Growth of Central Offices by Mitchell K (via Google): "The Jack Alexander article in the Saturday Evening Post not only began a large influx of prospective members into AA, it began a new phenomenon. This new concept in AA was the beginning of Central Offices and Intergroups. On March 2, 1941 a "Clearing House Committee" was formed in Cleveland, Ohio. This was an outgrowth of the AA Association which was formed in the late summer or early fall of 1939. The AA Association helped keep records of those prospects who were hospitalized for detoxification in the Cleveland area. It also was responsible for making sure all hospital bills were paid. The Clearing House Committee was comprised of two (2) members from each and every AA Group in Cuyahoga County. The motion that created this committee stated that "This Committee to have NO AUTHORITY to commit, involve or bind any one or all of the Groups in Cuyahoga County in any manner whatsoever without first referring proposed ideas, plans or prepositions to each individual Group for its acceptance or rejection."

Chicago Area Service Office (CASO) web site: "Chicago was one of the earliest areas to develop AA. The Chicago Area Service Office dates to 1942 and our major annual event - the All Chicago Open - dates from 1939. Volunteers gather and display our rich history and make it come alive for the fellowship."

Cheers

Arthur

__________________________________________________

From: John Barton
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013
Subject: Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?

I have to go back and check so I can cite the source but I believe Mike is correct. The Chicago Central Office was in place before Cleveland and thus would be considered "the first" Central Office

God Bless,
John B.
| 9111|9053|2013-03-09 10:44:28|arcchi88|Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
According to multiple sources, Chicago had the first Central Service Office and second only to the General Service Office.

AA Comes of Age, pg 23.

The following is from But for the Grace of God, by Wally P., pg 68: "About the same time of the Saturday Evening Post article in 1941, a modest Clubhouse was opened at 127 Dearborn Street in downtown Chicago. In May 1941, Sylvia rented an adjoining room to the Club and established what many A.A. Archivists believe was the "first" organized local service center. Grace became the Office Manager, and she had a staff of one- a stenographer named Katie D."

There are multiple sources for the May 1941 date of the establishment of the Chicago Area Service Office in the Chicago Archives as well.
Hope this helps!

Tom C.
| 9112|9112|2013-03-09 10:48:02|B|Glenwood Sanitarium - Hank Ps place of death|
From 18 Dec 1960 Princeton Town Topics:

(Two Hour Opportunity Sale)
"PUBLIC AUCTION"
Glenwood Sanitarium
2301 Nottingham Way-Trenton NJ
Sat.,Dec 17-10 AM (Rain or Shine)

Exceptional opportunity for Hotels, Institutions, etc. 18 good Rock maple and metal beds, hospital bed, 8 good bureaus, mirrors, 21 good leatherette chairs 9 formica mining tables, 40 chairs, 3 Boston and 25 rockers; Windsor sette; Phyfe sofa, upright piano, 2 office desks, 4 good broadloom rugs, 3 nice floor lamps, bedspreads, blankets, 5 linen cabinets, fire extinguishers, watercooler, 2 door (16 sq ft) stainless steel refrigerator,quantities of kitchen equipment, heavy pans, dishes, flatware, large restaurant range with hood, grill, washing machine, garden tools, power mower, ladders, etc!!

Lester Slatoff - Auctioneer - Trenton NJ

I guess the institution business was not so booming. I will be checking the address to see if the building is still there. Most likely torn down given that the above was a sale of its contents. Not sure if i want bedspreads and blankets used in a sanitarium ... but that's just my opinion.
| 9113|9105|2013-03-09 10:50:21|Tom Pasek|Re: Query - The Voice In The Mirror film|
Blockbuster has it on DVD:
http://www.blockbuster.com/browse/catalog/movieDetails/78069

- - - -

From: Gregory Harris
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013

Long ago I was remote surfing and caught the last half of this movie "The Voice In The Mirror". It was about some alcoholics who formed a group in (I believe) New York in the early 40's. The part of the film i saw was pretty good and I have been unable to locate it and see the whole thing. Does anyone know of any DVD of this film? Thanks

Greg H. in Illinois
| 9114|9114|2013-03-09 10:59:51|gcb900|Re: Bill W - I salute you and thank you for your lives|
==========================
It says in Message 9101 from Carlos Ballantyne
<ckb7_2000@yahoo.com> (ckb7_2000 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/9101

I also have deep concerns about the editing done on Bill W's last talk when the pamphlets 'the co-founders of AA' and 'the last talks' were combined into one pamphlet. The last line of Bill W's talk was omitted. "I salute you and thank you for your lives." Spiritually speaking this is the most important line in the talk.
==========================

I do not know if this is Bill's comment as Lois gave it for him at his last convention, but I copied it to see if we agree that it is as was originally given:

My Dear Friends,

Recently an A.A. Member sent me an unusual greeting which I would like to extend to you. He told me it was an ancient Arabian salutation. Perhaps we have no Arabic groups, but it still seems a fitting expression of how I feel for each of you.

It says, " I salute you and thank you for your life."

My thoughts are much occupied these days with gratitude to our Fellowship and for the myriad blessings bestowed upon us by God's Grace. If I were asked which of these blessings I felt was the most responsible for our growth as a fellowship and most vital to our continuity, I would say the "Concept of Anonymity." Anonymity has two attributes essential to our individual and collective survival: the spiritual and the practical. On the spiritual level, anonymity demands the greatest discipline of which we are capable: on the practical level anonymity had brought protection for the newcomer, respect and support of the world outside, and security from those of us who would use A.A.for sick and selfish purposes. A.A. must and will continue to change with the passing years. We cannot, nor should we turn back the clock. However, I deeply believe that the principle of anonymity must remain our primary and enduring safeguard. As long as we accept our sobriety in our traditional spirit of anonymity we will continue to receive God's Grace.

And so -- once more. I salute you in that spirit and again I thank you for your lives. May God bless us all now, and forever.
| 9115|9105|2013-03-09 11:02:42|Jeffrey J|Re: Query - The Voice In The Mirror film|
The Voice In The Mirror was made in 1958:

Jim Burton, chronic alcoholic, is cared for by Ellen, his incredibly
patient, sexy, hard-working wife. A doctor's warning that Jim could
become mentally ill strikes enough fear into him that he really wants to cure himself ... but can't. One night, he meets William Tobin, a fellow drunk, and finds that he helps himself by trying to help Tobin. Thus is born, amid setbacks, a group resembling Alcoholics Anonymous. Written by Rod Crawford <puffinus@u.washington.edu>

The Voice in the Mirror:

Although Walter Matthau had been in the business for about a decade before he made Voice in the Mirror (1958), his seventh big screen appearance, his slouching posture and droopy-dog face were more familiar to audiences in the 50s due to the dozens of TV roles he had already played. Matthau was still ten years from the unlikely but long-termed stardom he would achieve upon the release of The Odd Couple (1968), but he was becoming known as a respected supporting actor and given third billing in this story of a man who overcomes destructive alcoholism to found a group very similar to the real-life Alcoholics Anonymous. The role of the recovered drunk went to Richard Egan who, at the time, was a popular star of glossy melodramas while Matthau took on the role of a wise and cautioning doctor. The popular singer and actress Julie London played Egan's supportive and long-suffering wife.

Found on eBay:

Voice in the Mirror (1958) Richard Egan, Julie London
Director: Harry Keller
Co-stars: Walter Matthau, Troy Donahue, Ann Doran, Mae Clarke
103 minutes, Black and White
DVD-R: Region ALL

Poignant drama in which successful commercial artist Egan takes to
drink after the death of his small daughter. His drinking gets worse and worse, and though he wants to stop, he can't, not even given the
support of devoted wife London and the advice of doc Matthau. His
recovery only comes after meeting a man in a similar position. They give each other the support and understanding needed to kick the habit. Egan goes on to create an organization (presumably Alcoholics Anonymous) operating under the premise that only a drunk can help a drunk. The film helps ensure realism by using downtown Los Angeles as a backdrop. Egan convincingly portrays the problems of a drunk without the rather obvious stereotypes. Price for the DVD is $10.00

The things you can find out doing a Google search amazes me!
| 9116|9105|2013-03-09 11:19:34|Joe K|Re: Query - The Voice In The Mirror film|
From Joe K., Joseph Nugent, and planternva2000

- - - -

From: "Joe K" <jnjkempf@hotmail.com>
(jnjkempf at hotmail.com)

The movie, "The Voice In The Mirror" (1958), starring Richard Egan, Julie London, and Walter Matthau, is a fictional portrait of the founding of a group that resembles Alcoholics Anonymous, but is not factual in any sense.

This is the only link I have found with the movie on sale:

http://scootermoviesshop.com/cubecart/drama/voice-in-the-mirror-1958-dvd/prod_260.html

Blessings - joe k - alcoholic

- - - -

From: Joseph Nugent <jumpinjoe1@gmail.com>
and also from: "planternva2000" <planternva2000@yahoo.com>

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052373/ gives data on the movie, plus one (not very favorable) review:

Alcoholics Anonymous, the Hollywood treatment
14 April 2005 | by macataque (United States)

i saw this film before i got sober, remembered it & got another chance to see it after i got sober; i recall distinctly Richard Egan, after slipping into alcoholic despair again miraculously sobering up, seemingly instantly cured of drink & sober -- even after having drank! The director, Harry Keller, is the hack Universal's producers gave "Touch of Evil" to after they threw Orson Welles off the project; anyway, "Voice in the Mirror" just doesn't smack of real, coming across as if Nancy Davis Reagan had directed -- "Just say 'No'"; it is NOT how AA began, only a gussied-up version, the way Hollywood does things; i don't think it was made to help people, for drunks to get sober; it was made to make money in 1958, and must have given people odd ideas about AA & alcoholism; today, it is rarely screened & rightly so being a very mediocre oddity, solely for the curious -- i'd like to waste another coupla hours seeing it again.
| 9117|9082|2013-03-09 11:24:38|Joseph Herron|Re: Early speaker recordings of Dr. Silkworth and Dr. Tiebout|
Charles,

I found speaker CD's on Rev Shoemaker, Father Dowling speaking at the 1955 AA International Convention at St. Louis, Missouri on Amazon.com.

Our old friend from Brea, California, Jerry L. had the CD of Dr. Tiebout speaking at the 1955 AA International and made me a copy for 2013 Open House - "Voices" - Early Friends of AA.

Joseph H., Highland, California
E-MAIL <joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net>
(joseph_blackwolf at sbcglobal.net)

_______________________________________

From: <joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net>
(joseph_blackwolf at sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Early speaker recordings of Dr. Silkworth and Dr. Tiebout

> >Has anyone came across or have knowledge of early speaker recordings of Dr. William Silkworth and Dr. Harry Tiebout? Especially, speaking on the topics of Alcoholism, Doctor's Opinion, and Alcoholics Anonymous.
> >
> >The MSCA 09 Archives Committee is putting together an 2013 Open House theme of "More Voices: Early Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous."
> >
> >We have recordings of Rev. Sam Shoemaker, Sister Ignatia, and Father Dowling already to use for our 2013 Open House, since they were influential people in in Bill Wilson's life, his talks, and his writings.
> >
> >Any assistance would be gratefully helpful in our task to "Carry the Message" throught our Archives presentations we present to the Fellowship of the Mid-Southern California Area 09.
> >
> >Joseph H.,
> >Highland, California
| 9118|9082|2013-03-09 12:08:41|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Pronunciation of Tiebout?|
Tiebout treated Bob Pearson (former manager of GSO in New York) and I heard Pearson in 1990 on an AA platform at Twin Falls, Idaho, where he'd retired, pronounce it as Teeboo.

Laurie A.
| 9119|9119|2013-03-09 12:27:44|Glenn Chesnut|Ministers son on p. 56 in the Big Book|
This is a response to a question that was sent in.

The "minister's son" on p. 56 in the Big Book was very definitely an AA member. He was Fitz Mayo, see the story "Our Southern Friend" in the Big Book.

In terms of people who stayed around for a while, and were active in shaping early New York AA at the very beginning, the three most important early New York members in the early months were Bill Wilson, Hank Parkhurst, and Fitz Mayo, who got sober in that order.

When the Big Book was being written, Fitz Mayo wanted it to use a good deal of traditional Christian doctrinal language and biblical citations. Jim Burwell on the other hand was an atheist and wanted no mention of God at all. God "as we understood Him" was the compromise wording, which allowed AA members to go either way, with Fitz or with Jim. See:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#John%20Henry%20Fitzhugh%20%28Fitz%29%20Mayo
| 9120|9054|2013-03-12 10:04:15|J. Lobdell|Re: Why not a state/province system instead of numbered Areas?|
Interestingly, the only secondary "area" proposed to Bill W. and not created [so far as I know] was a Central Pennsylvania area centered on Harrisburg.

My understanding from consulting old copies of the personal newsletter Chit Chat and speaking with Dick C.'s sometime sponsor [still alive] is that Dick C. [Delegate from "[Eastern] Pennsylvania" elected 1954] believed that the creation of a Central Pennsylvania area separating Reading [and Wyomissing] Pennsylvania from Philadelphia was not in AA's interest [and he, in Reading/Wyomissing, certainly did not want to be separated from Philadelphia AA].

Just a sidelight on the degree to which Bill's vision was realized -- and on the history of Area 59 [Eastern Pennsylvania], still pondering a separation in Eastern and Central Pennsylvania, so I am told.


> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: arthur.s@live.com
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:26:00 -0600
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Why not a state/province system instead of numbered Areas?
>
> A short history of the General Service Conference and Structure:
>
> Class A trustees Leonard Harrison and Bernard B Smith resolved a 5-year
> conflict between Bill W and the Alcoholic Foundation Board on having a
> General Service Conference. Smith, who Bill W would later call "the
> architect of the service structure" chaired a trustee's committee that
> recommended that Conferences be held on an experimental basis from
> 1951-1954, and that in 1955 it would be evaluated and a final decision made.
> The recommendation was approved at the Board's Fall 1950 meeting. In
> November 1950 a pamphlet titled "Your Third Legacy Will You Accept It" was
> published to explain the Conference plans and procedures. Bill W also wrote
> a December 1950 Grapevine article titled "Your Third Legacy."
>
> The Alcoholic Foundation invited 1 Conference delegate from each of the then
> 48 States and the Canadian Provinces. 7 states with large AA populations
> were assigned additional delegates. Delegates were divided into 2 Panels so
> that half would be elected and half would rotate in odd and even numbered
> years. Panel 1 areas were asked to form a temporary committee to organize an
> election assembly no later than March 1951. Bill W traveled across the US
> attending over 2 dozen assemblies electing area committees and Conference
> Delegates.
>
> Area assemblies were first held just for the election of area officers and a
> delegate. Group Representatives (later called General Service
> Representatives) who attended, placed an "A" next to their name on the
> registration form to indicate they were available to serve on the area
> committee. The first item of assembly business was to create an area map
> divided into districts. This determined the number of Committeemen to be
> elected. Committeemen later came to be called Committee Members and then
> District Committee Members (or DCMs).
>
> The entire assembly voted in the election of Committeemen which ended when a
> nominee received at least 25% of the votes cast. The first 3 Committeemen
> elected automatically became the Area Chair, Treasurer and Secretary in that
> order. The delegate election required a 2/3 majority of the votes cast. If
> it could not be obtained, the delegate was chosen by lot from among all the
> Committeemen whether they were standing for the delegate election or not.
> Each area determined the number of times to vote prior to settling the
> election by lot. Needless to say, much has changed since then.
>
> On April 20, 1951 - 37 US and Canadian delegates (half the planned number)
> convened at the Commodore Hotel in NYC as the 1st Panel of the General
> Service Conference. Bernard B Smith presided. 15 Trustees and 10 staff
> members from the NY Office and Grapevine joined the Conference as voting
> members. On April 23, 1952, Panel 2 (consisting of 38 additional delegates)
> joined with Panel 1 for the first Conference of all 75 Delegates attending.
> The first women Delegates joined Panel 2 (Lois A of Barre, VT and Fay B of
> Bismarck, ND).
>
> Board Chairman, Bernard B Smith, reported to the 1953 Conference that the
> corporate name of "Works Publishing" had been changed to "Alcoholics
> Anonymous Publishing." The first Conference-approved book to be distributed
> under the new publishing name was the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions."
> The 1953 Conference recommended that a pamphlet be developed to clarify the
> duties and responsibilities related to General Services. It was published in
> December 1953 under the title "Your Role in the General Service Conference."
> The pamphlet explained the duties and responsibilities of Group Members,
> Group Representatives, Area Committeemen and Conference Delegates. It also
> contained the first structure diagram of the General Service Conference.
>
> The 1954 Conference unanimously approved the renaming of the 15-member
> Alcoholic Foundation to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous.
> The renaming took place in October 1954. The Conference also approved
> renaming the Group Representative to General Service Representative to be
> the voice of the group conscience in General Service matters. The General
> Service Representative was to be listed in the AA Directory instead of the
> Group Secretary.
>
> The 1955 Conference convened in St Louis, MO on June 26-29 and again on July
> 3. 75 Delegates unanimously recommended adoption of a permanent Conference
> Charter subject to the approval of the 2nd International Convention that
> would convene in St Louis on July 1.
>
> AA's 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention was held in St Luis'
> Kiel Auditorium from July 1-3, 1955. Estimated attendance was 3,800. Its
> theme was "Coming of Age." This historic convention introduced a new circle
> and triangle symbol prominently displayed on a large banner draping the back
> of the stage. Bill W later wrote in AA Comes of Age (139) that the circle
> represented the whole of AA and the triangle represented AA's 3 Legacies of
> Recovery, Unity and Service. The 2pm Sunday afternoon meeting was designated
> as the "Last Session of the General Service Conference." It is the only time
> in the history of the Conference that it has been opened to the
> participation of AA members. At the invitation of Chairman Bernard B Smith,
> Bill W made some introductory remarks and presented a resolution to the
> attendees to approve the General Service Conference. The resolution was
> unanimously approved.
>
> The permanent Conference Charter has 12 Articles, the 12th of which is
> called "The General Warranties of the Conference" or just "Warranties" for
> short. The 6 Warrantees in Article 12 are a condensed version of the
> Traditions to ensure that the Conference always functions in the spirit of
> the Traditions. In 1962, the General Warranties of the Conference formed
> Concept 12 of the Twelve Concepts for World Service.
>
> Compared to 1955, when there were 8 Conference Committees, today there are
> 13. There were over 6,200 AA groups in 1955, today there are well over
> 100,000. Worldwide. AA membership was around 136,000 in 1955, today it is
> well over 2 million. There were 75 areas in the US and Canada in 1955, today
> there are 93. AA is in over 180 countries. Multiple Conference structures
> and over 60 autonomous General Service Offices exist world-wide. World
> services are still linked by the same primary and single purpose that
> started the AA Fellowship in 1935 - to carry a message to a still-suffering
> alcoholic - the big difference today is that we do so in over 150 different
> languages.
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
> __________________________________________
>
> From: "david93may" david93may@yahoo.com.au
> (david93may at yahoo.com.au)
>
> When the General Service Structure was first created with its
> Group => District => Area => Conference structure,
> was there any consideration given to having a Federated system with a group
> conscience in each State / Province, rather than the numbered Area system
> that eventuated?
>
> That way, instead of the 93 Areas in the present North American system:
>
> http://www.aa.org/lang/en/aasite_finder.cfm?origpage=72
>
> http://www.aa.org/pics_gen/en_us-canada_areamap.gif
>
> there would be only the 50 U.S. states (plus Puerto Rico, District of
> Columbia, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and the Northern
> Mariana Islands) and Canada's 10 provinces (and 3 territories).
>
> That would be a total of only 60 states/provinces (plus however the smaller
> units were counted).
>
> If this was discussed back at the time, what were the reasons for not having
> a federated system?
>
> Thanks, David
> Melbourne, Australia
| 9121|7851|2013-03-13 16:35:34|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Marty Mann, Twice I Sought Death|
From: Ron Roizen <ronroizen@frontier.com> (ronroizen at frontier.com)

This is a very interesting talk in that it does not hammer on the disease concept theme but instead lays its emphasis on the importance of suffering and the helping hands of other people and God in addressing one's alcoholism.

Mann was accustomed to giving one sort of speech to a general public or radio audience (which stressed the disease idea) and another sort to closed A.A. audience (this time with themes driven more by A.A. philosophy). I recall listening to one tape many years ago in which she actually began by asking her audience and hosts whether they were expecting "Mrs. Marty Mann" or "Marty M." as their speaker.

In the short talk offered at this link, however, she conveyed a picture of recovery that owes rather more to A.A. than to the Yale group's science-based message. Yale originally sponsored Mann's National Committee for Education on Alcoholism. I don't think Yale folk would have found much particularly helpful to their science-promoting agenda in this talk by Mann. Yale and Mann's NCEA parted company in 1949 � thus, presumably, also thereafter freeing-up Mann with respect to the content of her messages to the general public. It's interesting to contemplate whether this new relative liberty may have provided one of the contextual sources of this talk's content. Maybe she was even sticking it to Yale in a way.

Does anyone know an exact date for the talk?

Thanks, Ron Roizen
| 9122|9122|2013-03-13 16:49:25|Allan Gengler|Other spiritual experiences like Bill Wilsons White Light?|
Are there other examples close to Bill Wilson's White Light experience?

When the Appendix II was added to mitigate the idea of "spiritual experience" there's this line:

"Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent...."

I'm wondering about the "though frequent" because it seems like most of the stories indicate the "educational variety."

Even OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND, referred to in WE AGNOSTICS, although sudden, doesn't seem to hold a candle to Bill's hospital room being filled with white light and the mountain breeze flowing through it.

Are there any others as dramatic as Bill's experience?

BTW I searched "spiritual" in these forums and found many great links, including the book by Glenn Chesnut that I enjoyed reading.
| 9123|9082|2013-03-13 17:03:53|Stephen Sunderland|Bob Pearson|
I remember Bob well, he was a great guy. Soft-spoken, kind, generous, and funny. I miss him a lot.I had the privilege to travel with him once to Delaware on the train back in the 80's. I did not know who he was at first. He picked up our cab fare for three of (Dr. Jackson and some unknown DCM, me) even though I was a complete stranger. He had some great stories to tell and always had an open door to help someone.

He introduced me later to Frank M. (the archivist) when I visited him at GSO.

He was a great power of example to me and I still get a smile on my face when I think of him. Bob and Frank were towers of greatness and I felt blessed to share the same air with them.

- - - -

On Mar 9, 2013, at 1:52 AM, Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> wrote:

The psychiatrist Dr. Tiebout treated not only Mrs. Marty Mann, but also Bob Pearson (former manager of GSO in New York).

- - - -

SEE HIS BIG BOOK STORY: Bob P., "AA Taught Him To Handle Sobriety," p. 554 in the third edition and p. 553 in the fourth edition.

Also "OUR GREATEST DANGER: RIGIDITY" Bob P.'s talk at
http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html
| 9124|9124|2013-03-13 17:20:17|paddymur|Re: Clarence Snyder and Home Brewmeister|
==============================
Message #9087 from Patrick Murphy wrote:
Another thing that didn't help keep the Clarence Snyder / Home Brewmeister story in the 4th Edition was that it was slanted to impress his wife who was divorcing him at the time. He had Jim Scott ("The News Hawk" -- newspaperman from Akron) write it for him and load it with all the wonderful things that Clarence was then doing so he could get back in the house/big bedroom.

And Message #9102 from Tommy H in Danville asked: What are your sources for this?
==============================

Patrick responds:

Go to http://silkworth.net/

Go to the search box and type in: snyder story

Click on the third link: Chapter 4, 4.1 continued -Clarence
= http://www.silkworth.net/chs/chs0401.html

How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K.

The relevant paragraphs come at about the middle of this chapter:

While the "Program" portion of the book was being written, the New York and Akron members were submitting their personal stories of recovery. In New York, Bill and Hank edited the stories submitted by the New York contingent. Many of them objected to how their stories were being totally changed by this editing. In the Archives of the Stepping Stones Foundation. in Bedford Hills, New York, there are several of these handwritten and edited stories which were submitted for the book.

In Akron, Jim S., who was an Akron newspaper reporter and early member, interviewed and helped write and edit all of the stories that came from the Akron area and eventually, all the New York stories a s well. Much of this writing took place around the kitchen table in Dr. Bob's home.

Jim S. was one of the men who had visited with Clarence in Akron City Hospital and had told Clarence his own recovery from alcoholism. Clarence had been asked by Doc to submit his story and, as he went over it with Jim, explained to Jim that he was having problems with his wife. Clarence and Jim tried to slant Clarence's story to appease Dorothy and, by doing so, brought the two closer together. Both Jim and Doc did not like this way of appeasing Dorothy and they admonished Clarence for his impure motives. Despite this, Clarence's "slanted" story was published "as is."
| 9125|7851|2013-03-13 17:34:05|Sally Brown|Re: Marty Mann, Twice I Sought Death|
Thanx for posting this, Fiona. Marty's faith journey seems all the more miraculous when I remember what a stubborn, argumentative atheist she was when she came to AA.

Shalom - Sally


Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
Palo Alto, California 94304
Phone/Fax: 650-325-5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)
| 9126|9068|2013-03-14 10:32:44|Jim M|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
I am going to follow Glenn Chesnut's suggestion and contact the professional archivist at the library department at my local university to see what options I have for the most secure archival preservation. He tells me that state universities in particular usually put a high priority on helping all the citizens of their state, whether they are enrolled in classes at the university or not -- that is, they see their service mission to the people of their state as being much broader than simply teaching classes. And he tells me that the bigger state universities usually have someone on their library staff who is highly trained in professional archival restoration and preservation, and goes to national conferences every year and reads the professional journals to keep up to date on the latest and best techniques.

Beyond that, in trying to find a way to make the AA History Lovers Files and silkworth.net site available to future generations, I tend to agree with James Bliss. For the time being, I will keep the files as they are on silkworth.net and for the rest of my life, update the MDB files (if I am able to figure it out) and the PDF files as needed. However, I will leave the ASCII files (text files) the same as I tend to agree with Jim Bliss, even those have the potential of changing but have a longer life.

Before I die, I only hope I am able to find someone who will continue the work necessary for future generations.

I have read all the files posted on AA History Lovers concerning this attempt to make the files available for generations to come and the above at the moment seems to be the best option at this time till I am able to get more information. As the years pass, maybe more options may be available. Time will tell.

So for now, please enjoy the access to the files in your quest for AA History.
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/aa_history_lovers_messages.html

I will keep you up to date.

Thank you Mr. Bliss!

If anyone wishes to view individual messages from the mdb files (Microsoft Data Base files), you can do so just as they were originally posted, including the links in the posts. When you click on any of the MDB files, let it finish what it is doing. It will then show up as 3 different file types. Double click the second one. It will ask you what you want to do with the file. Choose open and it will download it from my site. There will be a heading titled, "Message." You can copy the entire message from that little box and paste it into your editor to view the message as it was originally posted.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. - jimmyers56 . @ yahoo . com

Yours in service,
Warmest regards,
Jim M.,
http://www.silkworth.net/

________________________________
From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:10 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?

On 2/25/2013 9:55 AM, J. Michael Gilbreath wrote: When electronically archiving electronic documents like the emails in this group, what are the relative advantages and/or disadvantages to 1) storing in a database 2) saving as individual plain text files 3) creating either individual or multi page PDF docs?

- - - -

Let me address what I perceive as the pros and cons of each:

1) A database provides a robust method of searching for specific records and phrases, and reports can be written across the database data. All of this takes time a some technical skills.

The true negative of this is that database 'engines' change over time. It is possible that the database 'engine' might change significantly enough that the older formats are no longer supported and the data may be stuck with an older technology that may not work in the future. This would require regular updates to the database engine to maintain future access to the database engine.

2) Individual plain text files. If they are saved as ASCII files this is probably the most uniform and longest potential life for the files. This format is probably not going away for quite some time since it is a basic building block on which so many other things are built. But, with all technology, this can change.

The negatives are that the format has limitations for searching and viewing the text in a formatted layout beyond what basic ASCII text allows (tabs, line feeds are available but bolding, italics, etc. are not). Searching is limited to the individual text editor or ability to search files for a specific text string. Some fancy searches are available with certain tools which allow for the use of 'regular expressions'.

3) The PDF format is nice for some searching. It also allows for formatted text in the documents (which might include the conversion of the HTML characters to a nice formatted layout - not sure but this should exist). The down side is that the format might change in the future and these documents might need to be converted.

Now, with that said, a big caveat is that technology changes over time. Any of these three could run into issues with future compatibility with each having different degrees of this likelihood occurring (database engines are consistently changed for example while ASCII text does not and PDF seems pretty standardized).

The bigger question is the ability to store on a media which will last, and the equipment being available in the future. I remember when CD writers were new. We now have DVD and BlueRay writers. In the older days (and some still are used) tapes drives were used for backups. Many of those tape formats are not longer supported although you could probably find someone with the equipment who would copy the files to a newer media. This area of media to store the data on while probably result in the need to regularly copy and update to newer media over time.

These comments are based upon the potential of archiving material for 100 or more years and are completely dependent upon what may or may not occur with technology in the future.

Just a few thought off of the top of my head and had been considered in another email regarding archiving this material.

Jim
| 9127|9122|2013-03-14 11:06:18|khemex@comcast.net|Re: Other spiritual experiences like Bill Wilsons White Light?|
I believe you can find what you're asking for at any AA meeting. By going to closed A.A. meetings I have heard stories of many A.A. members who have experienced what Bill Wilson did in Towns Hospital, and I have personally experienced just such an event. I would have to say by my informal survey, that 15 -25% of members that I know have had a sudden involuntary "Gods' Presence" experience.

When I was new I had told an old timer in AA that I had had this experience (incidentally before I ever saw, or read the book Alcoholics Anonymous, or heard of Bill Wilson) and he called me a liar, and said that no one but Bill ever had that experience, so I never told another soul about it. But then I heard a fellow tell his story at his 50th AA anniversary, and he told of the exact same experience. That's when I started my informal survey.

Gerry Winkelman

_____________________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: "Allan Gengler" <agengler@wk.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013

Are there other examples close to Bill Wilson's White Light experience? When the Appendix II was added to mitigate the idea of "spiritual experience" there's this line:

"Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent...."

I'm wondering about the "though frequent" because it seems like most of the stories indicate the "educational variety." Even OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND, referred to in WE AGNOSTICS, although sudden, doesn't seem to hold a candle to Bill's hospital room being filled with white light and the mountain breeze flowing through it.

Are there any others as dramatic as Bill's experience?

BTW I searched "spiritual" in these forums and found many great links, including the book by Glenn Chesnut that I enjoyed reading.
| 9128|9053|2013-03-14 11:32:16|ricktompkins|Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
CHICAGO HAS THE DISTINCTION OF ESTABLISHING THE FIRST CENTRAL OFFICE IN THE U.S.

Grace Cultice, Sylvia K.'s onetime social secretary, became the Chicago Central Office manager, employed by the Chicago Group from May 1941 to her death from influenza in 1948.

The primary reason for the Office followed the avalanche of inquiries brought by the Saturday Evening Post article of March 1941, with the majority of letters first coming into NYC. Grace, not an alcoholic, and Ruth Hock, non-alcoholic secretary to Works Publishing and Alcoholic Foundation "headquarters" in NYC, continued their large amount of 12th Step outreach correspondence that began in late 1939, advanced by the new Chicago office with a business address and a phone. After 1942, notebooks could be filled with the correspondence between Grace and Bobbie B.

The 1942 date found in current Area 19 service material needed correction when it was first printed; no one has ever taken up this task, unfortunately.

On a side note, the telephone number for the Chicago Area Service Office is the same today as listed in the 1951 A.A. Directory: Financial 6- 1475 (312-346-1475 today). The identical telephone number probably is years older than that, but officially published nationally by the Alcoholic Foundation in 1951. That's a long stretch of time and continuity!

Rick T., Illinois

Source: An Alcoholics Anonymous History in Northern Illinois Area 20, Chapter 1 'From Chapters to Sections'-- NIA, Ltd. Second Issue copyright 2003.

_______________________________________________

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/9110

Arthur S. wrote:

The Chicago Area Service Office web site states that the office "dates to 1942." Bill W, in AA Comes of Age, states that Chicago was the "first organized local service center" inferring that it began in 1941 after the Saturday Evening Post article was published. I think Bill got the timing wrong.
| 9129|9090|2013-03-14 17:11:15|hdmozart|Re: The AA movie Dawn of Hope|
I received my copy and watched it - here are my notes -

Narration of history with photos of Bill's trip to Akron and Dr. Bob's early years

Former congressman, John Sieberling read from his mother's reminiscences

Smitty & Sue reminisce about that fateful weekend that Dr. Bob and Bill met -

Bill stayed at the Portage Country Club for 2 weeks, then moved to Dr. Bob's house

According to Smitty, Dr. Bob was dosed with paraldehyde

Anne cared for 'unwilling' patients in Dr. Bob's house which became AA's first halfway house

John Sieberling narrated a typical visit to Bill D.

Program was experimental as Bill & Dr, Bob tried to recreate their recoveries -

Ethel Macy, the Akron group's first successful woman member

Meeting at Clarace and T. Henry Willams sometimes required as many as 30 folding chairs to be set up -

Bill wasn't successful at the Oxford Group, but started to achieve success at Towns Hospital -

Clarence Snyder talked about moving from Akron to be of service to Catholics -

Abby Golrick offered his home on 2345 Stillman Road, in Cleveland Hts., Ohio

By November the Cleveland group grew and started another meeting at the Borton Home on Roxborough Rd -

Not long after the Akron Group moved to King School -

About the same time, the NY group left the Calvary church and met in a club house on 24th street - by now the NY group had its first woman, Marty Mann

Dr. Bob wore out their welcome at the other Akron hospitals (financial)

Father Vincent Haas attended a King School meeting and encouraged sister Ignatia to support an 'alcoholic ward' at St. Thomas hospital -

After living with the Smith's for a year, Archie Trowbridge of Grosse Point, Michigan, founded a group in Detroit

Earl Treat founded one in Chicago -

Ernie Gerig started a group in Toledo

J. B. Holmes, a traveling salesman created several groups in Indiana, Kentucky, and later Arizona -

In St. Louis, Father Dowling was pleased to note that perhaps a third of the membership was now Catholic

In 1939 the Big Book project was finished - completed with the editorial assistance of Jim Scott of the Akron Beacon Journal (edited the personal stories) -

National recognition was increased by publication in magazines, as well as sports figures such as Rollie Hemsley who publicly expressed their gratitude to AA for their recovery -

A scroll of AA membership from 1935 to 1980 in 5 year increments -

Some explanation of GSO and its services -

AA is prototype for several other self-help groups -

Synopsis of AA groups -

Review of Akron historic places -

Most of the movie was narrated by Walt Henrich, excepting those few spots previously mentioned by Bob & Sue Smith, John Sieberling and the Snyder audio - the movie included pictures of practically everyone and every place mentioned - I am a history lover, not a historian, so please feel free to correct my name recognition and spelling.
| 9130|9068|2013-03-14 17:12:33|Shakey Mike|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
Michelle Merza ,the head archivist at GSO ,is another good person to ask about archiving AA material. She is schooled, up to date and readily available by e-mail or by phone. She regularly attends the NAAAW's and is our (AA's)personal gem.

Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
| 9131|9041|2013-03-14 17:26:47|brian koch|Editing the BB stories: The Car Smasher|
Regarding editing: the story "The Car Smasher" by Dick Stanley, was changed to "Had to Be Shown" in 2nd and 3rd editions (does not appear in the 4th edition).

I do not have confirmation but my thought leads to the change in title being due to Dick's brother Paul (morbid irony here) dying of wounds received in a horrific car crash, Sept 11th 1953. I have the full story and obit (includes a picture of the smashed car), but needless to say the details are gruesome. This would have occurred between the editions and would be a sound explanation.

Dick did not pass until 30 Aug 1957, meaning he would have been available either to suggest the change or at least approve of it. In this case editing seems appropriate and did not change the tone of the story, and possibly was approved by the author.

Blessings,

Brian

- - - -

A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR GLENN C.

Dick's brother -- Paul S., Akron, Ohio -- had his story in the Big Book too, under the title "Truth Freed Me!" It was in the orig. ms. and in the 1st ed. on p. 336.

The date of death as traditionally given was September 19, 1953, see
http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#Truth%20Freed%20Me!

If you have information showing that it was Sept 11th instead, COULD YOU SEND A COPY PLEASE TO FIONA AND ME:

<glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

<fionadodd@eircom.net> (fionadodd at eircom.net)

Many thanks!
| 9132|9041|2013-03-14 17:29:47|brian koch|Editing the BB stories: Clarence Snyder|
I find it odd, if there were such conflicts with Clarence, his wife, his place in AA and his attempts to be recognized by wife and fellowship, that his story would not have been dropped in earlier editions. Given that he died in March of 1984, why would his slant / position / controversial standing be more in question in an edition printed 17 years after his death? The fact that the story lasted through his more turbulent years may be a testament to AA's recognition of his importance and contributions.

25 stories were dropped from 3rd to 4th editions, including some older stories that have lasted through other editions. The forwards explain in general why stories are dropped and kept.

It's my personal viewpoint that this story was just dropped for the reason that they wanted to make room for stories which represented a fuller cross section of our membership as it existed in 2001.

Blessings,

Brian
| 9133|9041|2013-03-14 17:37:46|B|Editing the BB stories: Bertha V., Another Chance|
The story "Another Chance" (Bertha V., Louisville, Kentucky) starts on pg 526 in the third edition, pg 531 in the fourth edition.

The last paragraph of the story was completely omitted and is as follows: "I am hoping writing this may bring some poor, mixed up soul into the program. It's time to stop finding excuses for drinking and getting into trouble because now there is a way out and if you want what we have try coming around and giving the program a chance."

The page this story ends on, in the 4th edition, even has remaining space on the page. While throughout the story other edits are made, most notably the term "negroes" being replaced with a more politically correct term, the omission of this paragraph most definitely affects the story's content and intention by the author. What possible reasoning could there be in leaving this out? It speaks to the heart of our program of recovery and the hope found by the author.

Do we have a member who can contact GSO and get a reaction / reason for their editing decisions? I can attempt to make the calls, but we may have members who would be better suited to this task?

Blessings,

Brian
| 9134|9041|2013-03-15 08:16:41|brian koch|Re: Editing the BB stories: the GSO editing notebooks|
I have contacted GSO, and received a phone call back from Mary D, who sits at the literature desk and is the person to be contacted in these matters. She will be researching specific examples of editing that i will send her in email form. If you have knowledge of significant edits which effect the tone and content of any of the stories, you can email them to me and i can include them in the email to her.

She indicated that GSO has significant editing notebooks on file to refer to, to determine the reasoning of the edits. I will hold any thoughts / opinions on the edits that she had until she researches completely. The research will take approx 10 working days.

I did express our concern, as a group, regarding the editing of the stories, as has been discussed here. She will forward our concerns to the Trustees upon her receipt of the email.

Maybe we will get a few answers.

Blessings,

Brian

<kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)
| 9135|9135|2013-03-16 10:18:04|elginsv|7th tradition/ Basket passing origin ?|
Would anyone know the events surrounding basket passing in meetings ? Did Oxford Groupers pass a basket ? Thank you.
| 9136|9068|2013-03-20 11:23:35|J. Michael Gilbreath|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
Jim

Thanks for the run down of pluses and minuses. As the primary keeper of the electronic archives for the International Conference of Young People in AA I regularly wonder about the options. We have been slowly digitizing everything that was originally distributed in some hard-copy format (registration forms, tickets, programs, etc. ). Now as planning committees exist in what is essentially a pure digital world of text messages, tweets, and e-mails tracking the history of decision making and outcomes becomes that much more challenging. Oh for the days of handwritten letters! More content and less fear of file format changes!

Michael
| 9137|9068|2013-03-20 11:30:23|Jim M|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
Good morning AA History Lovers! I have figured out how to save the .mdb files to HTML files from the 11 posts Glenn put up on AAHistoryLovers.

Here are the links to the HTML tables I was able to create to show each message as it was ment to be viewed, including Hyper Text Mark Up Language:

2002:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2002_AAHistoryLovers_1_751.html

2003:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2003_AAHistoryLovers_753_1574.html

2004:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2004_AAHistoryLovers_1575_2117.html

2005:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2005_AAHistoryLovers_2118_3001.html

2006:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2006_AAHistoryLovers_3002_3975.html

2007:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2007_AAHistoryLovers_3976_4774.html

2008:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2008_AAHistoryLovers_4775_5452.html

2009:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2009_AAHistoryLovers_5453_6184.html

2010:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2010_AAHistoryLovers_6185_7089.html

2011:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2011_AAHistoryLovers_7090_8081.html

2012:
http://www.silkworth.net/aahistorylovers/html/2012_AAHistoryLovers_8082_8956.html

Enjoy as I continue my quest to have both the AA History Lover messages and silkworth.net viewable for generations to come.

Yours in service,
Warmest regards,
Jim M.,
http://www.silkworth.net/
| 9138|8888|2013-03-20 12:00:32|Bill|Re: Dr. Bobs definition of humility|
I'm astonished not to have seen any reaction to the message below.

William

Message #8888 from Dani S <claritystone@gmail.com>
(claritystone at gmail.com) said:
> I've seen a photo of that plaque that it's said Dr. Bob had on his desk, or in his office, that was his definition of humility.
> ================================================
> "Perpetual quietness of heart. It is to have no trouble. It is never to be fretted or vexed, irritable or sore; to wonder at nothing that is done to me, to feel nothing done against me. It is to be at rest when nobody praises me, and when I am blamed or despised, to have a blessed home in myself where I can go in and shut the door and kneel to my Father in secret and be at peace, as in a deep sea of calmness, when all around and about is seeming trouble."
> ================================================
And Dani wanted to know more about it.

- - - -

FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR: the reaction from most AA historians is that this is just another one of those URBAN LEGENDS that start floating around in AA. Who knows where they originally come from?

See the message from Bill Lash:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1772

"Please keep in mind that Dr. Bob's kids (Sue Smith Windows and Bob
Smith Jr./"Smitty") have both been asked about this plaque and (although they were both in Dr. Bob's office many times) have stated that they had never seen this plaque in Dr. Bob's office.
Just Love,
Barefoot Bill"

- - - -

For more info see this little piece by MEL BARGER:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/INFO%20LIST/DrBobsPlaque.htm

From: Mel B.

Author is Andrew Murray, a South African religious leader and writer who lived from 1828-1927-searched and found by Anne K., an AA member with library experience. The results of her research was printed in "The Point" a newsletter of the Intercounty Fellowship of AA in San Francisco.

Andrew Murray, He Almost Stopped a True Revival! by David Smithers

Soon after coming to Christ, I was given two small paperbacks written by Andrew Murray, "The Prayer Life" and "Waiting on God". It seemed with each new chapter came fresh insights and new experiences in prayer. As a young believer, these writings greatly helped me to define and establish my personal prayer life. The principles conveyed in those little dog-eared books still continue to have a significant influence upon my prayer life and ministry. Almost twenty years later, I am only now beginning to feel that I truly understand the depth of what Andrew Murray was writing about! Most works on prayer direct you to a process of prayer, but Mr. Murray's writings direct you to the person of prayer - JESUS CHRIST.

Birthplace & Home

Andrew Murray was born on May 9th, 1828 in a Dutch Reformed parsonage in Graaff Reinet, South Africa. It was here that his father, the Rev. Andrew Murray, Sr. was ministering to the Dutch settlers. The Murray home was a vibrant and active place filled with the lively sounds of joy, prayer, and worship. Every Friday evening Andrew Murray's father would gather his family together and read them moving accounts of past revivals. He would then retire to his study and pour out his heart in prayer for revival to come to South Africa. This had been his weekly habit since 1822. Young Murray also benefited from several other fine examples of Christian zeal and devotion. Such men as David Livingstone and Robert Moffat frequently passed through their home on their way to the coast.

William C. Burns

In 1838, at the age of ten, Andrew left home with his brother John to study in Scotland. They stayed with their uncle, the Rev. John Murray. In the spring of 1840 the uncle introduced the boys to the revival ministry of William C. Burns. This renowned Scottish revivalist left a deep and lasting impression on the youthful Andrew Murray. The twelve-year-old Murray must have been thrilled when Mr. Burns invited him to carry his Bible and cloak as they walked together to the revival meetings in Aberdeen. Years later, Murray could still vividly recall the power of Burns' godly influence upon his life. His sincerity, fervent praying, and penetrating preaching all helped Andrew Murray define his own personal ministry and calling. The influence of one generation's Spirit-filled ministry often waters the seeds of another generation's harvest.

Pastor Blumhardt

After graduating from Marischal College in 1844, the two brothers went to Utrecht, Holland, for the purpose of further study in theology and the Dutch language. Religious life at this time in the Netherlands was at a low ebb and rationalism had crippled many of the pulpits and seminaries. Much like the Wesley brothers and the Holy Club at Oxford, John and Andrew joined a zealous group at the college called "Sechor Dabar" (Remember the Word).

Here they found like-minded brethren, warm fellowship, and true missionary zeal. During a vacation from their classes, the brothers visited Germany, where they had the opportunity to meet Pastor Blumhardt. This remarkable man had been used to bring revival to the Renish province in Germany. This revival was marked by extraordinary manifestations of deliverance and healing the sick through prayer. "Andrew saw firsthand the ongoing work of God's power in his own time."

The Boy Preacher

The two brothers were ordained at The Hague on Andrew's twentieth birthday, leaving soon afterwards to begin their work in South Africa. Andrew appeared to be barely more than a child when he first returned to Africa. At twenty years old, he looked much younger than his age. An Old Dutch farmer was once heard to say, "Why, they have lent us a girl to preach to us." Nevertheless, in spite of Murray's fragile appearance, there was no end to his endurance and zeal. He would often go out for weeks at a time on horseback to hold meetings for the Boers, (Dutch-speaking South African farmers). These spiritually hungry farmers would come from literally hundreds of miles to listen to this "boy preacher". A temporary church of reeds would be quickly erected and then surrounded by hundreds of big Dutch farm wagons. It was during such ministry ventures, that the young Mr. Murray began to give expression to the fire and fervency so often associated with his classic writings on prayer and the Deeper Life.

Preparation for Revival

In 1860 Andrew Murray accepted a call to pastor the church at Worcester. His induction to the church coincided with a revival and missions conference made up of 374 South African ministers. The conference was planned for the specific purpose of encouraging spiritual revival and recruiting new workers and missionaries for the Dutch Reformed churches of South Africa. At the beginning of the conference a paper was handed out which traced the news of the recent revival in America and Britain. The attending ministers were strongly encouraged to expect and pray for a similar move of God in South Africa. A Dr. Robertson spoke on their great need for revival, followed by a Dr. Adamson who then gave a detailed report on the recent awakening in America. Andrew Murray, Sr. attempted to address the gathering, but was unable, being overcome with brokenness and tears.

Overall, the conference was a great success, encouraging fresh hope and prayer among the attending ministers.

Shortly after the conference, a meeting of young people was held at the church on a Sunday evening. It was at this meeting that the Spirit of revival unexpectedly broke out. The meeting moved along as expected, until an unassuming 15-year-old black girl stood up to pray. Mr. Murray's associate, J. C. deVries, was overseeing the prayer meeting and gives us an eyewitness account of these extraordinary events. "On a certain Sunday evening there were gathered in a little hall some sixty young people. I was the leader of the meeting, which began with a hymn and a lesson from God's Word, after which I prayed. Three or four others gave out a verse of a hymn and prayed, as was the custom. Then a colored girl of about fifteen years of age, in service with a nearby farmer, rose at the back of the hall and asked if she too might propose a hymn. At first I hesitated, not knowing what the meeting would think, but better thoughts prevailed, and I replied, 'Yes.' She gave out her hymn-verse and prayed in moving tones. While she was praying, we heard, as it were, a sound in the distance, which came nearer and nearer, until the hall seemed to be shaken; with one or two exceptions, the whole meeting began to pray, the majority in audible voice, but some in whispers. Nevertheless, the noise made by the concourse was deafening. A feeling, which I cannot describe, took possession of me."

Offended by Revival

While this meeting was going on, Andrew Murray was preaching in another section of the church. He was not present during the beginning of these events. When his own service was over, an elder passed the door of the prayer meeting, heard the noise, peeked in, and then ran back to get Mr. Murray. J. C. deVries vividly recalls Murray's surprising reaction to the young people's meeting, "Mr. Murray came forward to the table where I knelt praying, touched me, and made me understand that he wanted me to rise. He then asked me what had happened. I related everything to him. Then he walked down the room for some distance and called out as loudly as he could, 'People, silence!' But the praying continued. In the meantime, I kneeled down again. It seemed to me that if the Lord was coming to bless us, I should not be upon my feet but on my knees. Mr. Murray then called loudly again, 'People, I am your minister, sent from God! Silence!' But there was no stopping the noise. No one heard him, but all continued praying and calling on God for mercy and pardon. Mr. Murray then returned to me and told me to start the hymn-verse commencing 'Aid the soul that helpless cries'. I did so. But the emotions were not quieted and the meeting went right on praying. Mr. Murray then prepared to depart, saying, 'God is a God of order, and here everything is confusion!' With that he left the hall."

Revival Praying & Power

Prayer meetings were spontaneously organized every evening after that. The order of these meetings was usually the same each time, although no one set it. At the beginning there was generally great silence; no efforts were made to stir up emotions, but after the second or third prayer the gathering would suddenly begin to simultaneously cry out in prayer. This was definitely not the custom of the Dutch Reformed churches at that time, nor did anyone ever teach them to do this. Sometimes the gathering would continue until three in the morning; even then, many wished to stay longer.

As the people returned to their homes in the middle of the night they went singing joyously through the streets. The prayer meeting quickly grew and had to be moved to a nearby school building. Eventually, this facility also proved to be far too small for the crowds of God-hungry seekers. "In places where prayer meetings were unknown a year before, now the people complained because meetings ended an hour too soon! Not only weekly but daily prayer meetings were demanded by the people, even three times a day - and even among children." The revival shook the entire countryside. The young and old, rich and poor, blacks and whites were all equally affected by the revival. "It was quite amazing that the awakening was not confined to the towns and villages, but felt in totally isolated places without outside contacts, even on remote farms, where men and women were suddenly seized with emotions to which they had been utter strangers a few weeks or even days before." People were frequently gripped with intense conviction. Strong men cried out in anguish while others fell to the ground unconscious and had to be carried out of the meetings.

Learning about Revival

J. C. deVries gives us a further account of Mr. Murray's difficulty in accepting these manifestations as from God. J. C. deVries writes, "On the first Saturday evening in the larger meeting-house, Mr. Murray was the leader. He read a portion of Scripture, made a few observations on it, engaged in prayer, and then gave others the opportunity to pray. During the prayer, which followed his, we heard again the same sound in the distance.

It drew nearer and nearer and then suddenly the whole gathering was praying.

That evening a stranger had been standing at the door from the beginning of the meeting, watching the proceedings. Mr. Murray descended from the platform and again moved up and down among the people, trying to quiet them.

The stranger then tiptoed forward from the door, touched Mr. Murray gently, and said in English, 'I think you are the minister of this congregation. Be careful what you do, for it is the Spirit of God that is at work here. I have just come from America, and this is precisely what I witnessed there."

Andrew Murray had been offended by the intense outbursts of emotional praying, and sought unsuccessfully to control and calm the meetings.

However, after this incident he apparently stopped trying to manhandle the Holy Spirit. He learned to accept these sudden outbursts of prayer and strong emotions as the work of God. His father, Andrew Murray, Sr. also confirmed that these stirrings were genuine, stating, "he blessed God that he lived to witness such a work of the Spirit". Mr. Murray's strong reaction seems to stem from the fact that these particular revival manifestations exceeded his own personal experience and sense of propriety. Though he had earnestly prayed for revival, studied reports about revival and even witnessed a measure of revival himself, he still failed to anticipate his own response to the supernatural nature of a revival in his own church.

Revival & Broken Expectations

Mr. Murray's expectations about proper church order and that of the Holy Spirit's were obviously quite different. Broken expectations, if left unchecked, can lead to confusion, frustration and even harsh criticism. When the crowd in Jerusalem rushed to observe the miracle of Pentecost, Acts 2: 6 notes that many of the onlookers were "CONFUSED". These feelings of confusion obviously caused some to become offended, resulting later in them openly ridiculing the work of the Holy Spirit. -(Acts 2:6-13). Mr. Murray's new revival experiences eventually taught him not to judge every seemingly confusing situation as the result of a lack of proper order. Often we experience strong feelings of confusion or even frustration when we are suddenly placed in an unexpected or unfamiliar situation. All of us have surely struggled with feelings of confusion or anxiety while trying to find our bearings in an unfamiliar city or country. The source of our confusion was not a lack of proper order, but our own unfamiliarity with our new surroundings and circumstances.

Acts 2:6 is not suggesting that God is the author of disorder and confusion! On the contrary, this verse serves to remind us that our natural sense of protocol and order is sometimes quite different than the divine order of Heaven come down to earth. When we are suddenly surprised or confused by unfamiliar events, we must guard against thoughtlessly rejecting them simply because they are new to our personal experience. Only a PROUD heart rushes in to condemn what it does not understand! We must carefully examine all things according to the Scriptures, rather than by our personal preferences and traditions. Then and only then will we be prepared to hold fast to what is good in the coming days. -(1Thes 5:21).

Revival & the Keswick Convention

The lessons learned during this revival helped prepare Andrew Murray for his future role in the influential Keswick movement. Mr. Murray attended the Keswick Convention for the first time in 1882. In 1895, he was asked to speak at both the Keswick and Northfield Conventions. Murray was warmly received at these conferences and was later responsible for bringing the Keswick movement to South Africa. The Keswick Convention was itself, the indirect fruit of this wonderful season of awakening. The revival touched at least four different continents, bringing with it a renewed faith and vision for personal holiness and the Spirit-filled life. It was this liberating message that soon became synonymous with Andrew Murray's personal ministry.

The birth of the Keswick Convention united the emerging European Holiness Movement and thereby helped to channel the fire and energy of what became known as the "Third Great Awakening". However, the Keswick Convention did much more than merely unify and preserve the remaining fruit of this great revival. With a clear call to personal holiness through faith in Christ, the Keswick movement helped to prepare a new generation for the next move of God.

Those attending the conventions were always strongly encouraged to embrace a lifestyle of holiness, unity and prayer. In the 1902 Keswick Convention, five thousand Christians agreed to form home prayer circles for a worldwide outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of these Keswick praying bands was no doubt realized through the Welsh Revival of 1904. R. B. Jones, Jessie Penn-Lewis, and F. B. Myer all considered the Keswick Convention as one of the hidden springs of the Welsh revival. Through the biblical teaching of men like Andrew Murray, J. Elder Cumming, Evan Hopkins, F. B. Myer and many others, thousands of Christian workers and missionaries were empowered and purified to enter a new millennium of global harvest.

James Hudson Taylor, A. T. Pierson, Samuel Zwemer and many other missionary mobilizers regarded the Keswick Convention as one of the finest "hunting grounds" for the best missionary recruits. Here again we find it to be true, that the influence of one generation's Spirit-filled ministry often waters the seeds of another generation's harvest.

Andrew Murray's Closing Days

On January 18th, 1917, Andrew Murray crossed over into Glory. He entered into Heaven the same way he lived on earth, praying and urging others to pray. Few men have ever impacted more souls for the cause of the Spirit-filled life than Andrew Murray. He was arguably the Church's most prolific writer on the subject of prayer and the Deeper Life, publishing some 240 books between 1858 and 1917. Several of these books have been translated into as many as fifteen different languages. Soon after the Christian Literature Society for China translated Mr. Murray's book, "The Spirit of Christ" into Chinese, revival reportedly broke out in Inland China. Even today his writings are still shaping the way multitudes of hungry Christians think about prayer and the Spirit-filled life.

Learning from our Forefathers!

Andrew Murray unquestionably was a man of rare gifts and deep spiritual insight, yet he almost quenched a genuine revival. He was raised in a home where his father had faithfully prayed for more than 30 years for revival. Nevertheless, for a time he stubbornly opposed the long-awaited answer to his father's prayers. As a boy he had delighted in the revival ministry of William C. Burns and while in Germany he witnessed the miraculous ministry of Pastor Blumhardt. Yet, when personally confronted with revival manifestations in his own church, he opposed them. I do not write these things to dishonor the memory of one of our respected fathers of the faith, but rather to pose an important and timely question. If such a gifted man as Andrew Murray could fail to recognize the Spirit of revival, while in the midst of preparing for revival, how much more are we capable of making the same mistake? This generation of Christians must be willing to learn from the experiences, insights, and errors of our spiritual forefathers if we are to be prepared for the next move of God. Are you willing to LEARN?


Resources Used:
The Life of Andrew Murray of South Africa by J. Du Plessis,
Andrew Murray and His Message by W. M. Douglas,
Andrew Murray: Apostle of Abiding Love by Leona Choy,
"THE LIFE OF FAITH, JANUARY 26,1967" St. Andrew of South Africa by N. L. Cliff,
Andrew Murray by Dr. William Linder,Jr.
Northfield Echoes Vol. 6 Northfield Conference Addresses for 1899 Edited by Delavan L. Pierson,
Evangelical Awakenings in Africa by J. Edwin Orr,
The Fervent Prayer: The Worldwide Impact of the Great Awakening of 1858 by J. Edwin Orr,
The Holiness Revival of the 19th Century by Melvin Easterday Dieter,
The Keswick Convention: Its Message, Its Method and Its Men by C. F. Harford,
Keswick from Within by J. B. Figgis,
These Sixty Years: The Story of the Keswick Convention by Walter B. Sloan,
So Great Salvation: The History & Message of the Keswick Convention by Steven Barabas,
Scotland's Keswick by Norman C. Macfarlane,
The Forward Movement of the Last Half Century by A. T. Pierson, Reviv
| 9139|9090|2013-03-20 12:29:43|hdmozart|Re: The AA movie Dawn of Hope|
I apologize, Seiberling's name I should have gotten correctly - it was displayed on the screen - I was more concerned about Abbey Golrich (Goldrich or ...), Ethel Macy and others mentioned, but unfamiliar to me -

The movie is available from Kent State University Press, see AAHL Message #9106 for details - my copy cost $20.45 which included $6.50 shipping -

I wasn't trying to promote the movie, merely provide information - it's short (30 minutes), it doesn't provide a lot of detail, more of an overview 'colored' by the commentary - for example, "Bill's train is pulling into Akron, a town better off than many in 1935" - probably not enough detail to be of much use to the AAHL - and of course what all y'all have is my synopsis of a synopsis - "Clarence Snyder talked about moving from Akron ..." was an audio clip of Clarence Snyder claiming to start the first "AA" group (we've heard this before!) -

If there is enough interest in some facet of the movie, I could prepare a transcript of a short segment if it will help -

Trying to be of service,

Larry
| 9140|9041|2013-03-20 12:31:57|elginsv|Editing the BB stories: Our Southern Friend|
Interesting thread. I first saw this in 'Our Southern Friend', the last few paragraphs were omitted after the first edition of the Big Book. ( It's a great part of his story)

elginsv
| 9141|9041|2013-03-20 12:36:08|Arthur S|Re: Editing the BB stories: the GSO editing notebooks|
Hey folks

This began as a question on why a paragraph was deleted from the "Freedom From Bondage" Big Book story and it's getting a bit out of hand. A small handful of people are involved in this topic. I don't know how it escalated into one member appointing himself to "express our concern, as a group, regarding the editing of the stories, as has been discussed here." There is a simple and unemotional explanation for the editing done to some of the 3rd edition stories carried over to 4th edition Big Book. It's documented (interspersed) in the Final Conference Reports spanning 2001 to 2003. It had to do with maintaining the same page count in the 3rd and 4th editions.

Citations from Final Conference Reports:

2002 Trustees Literature Committee: Although the April 2001 trustees' report indicated that sixteen stories would be carried forward from the Third Edition of the Big Book, the Publications Department, with prior consultation with both the trustees' and Conference Literature Committees, added a seventeenth story so that the page count of the Fourth Edition would be the same as the page count of the Third Edition.

2002 Conference Literature Committee: The committee noted . A report from the GSO editor on the editing deletion of the ninth paragraph of the story "Freedom from Bondage" which was included in the Third Edition of the Big Book and which was deleted from the Fourth Edition to create a page count in the Fourth Edition similar to the page count of the Third Edition (discussed but no action taken).

2003 Conference Literature Committee: (1) After lengthy discussion, the committee considered the request to edit the following Fourth Edition Big Book stories to restore their Third Edition Big Book content: "The Housewife Who Drank At Home," "Me An Alcoholic?," "Another Chance" and "Freedom From Bondage," and agreed to accept the Fourth Edition Big Book editorial changes and agreed to take no action. (2) Recognizing the historical nature of the book "Experience, Strength and Hope" and recognizing the fact that editorial changes have been made to various personal stories in later printings of the Big Book, the versions to be printed in "Experience, Strength and Hope" will be the last published version of each story, and those versions remain as is.

Cheers

Arthur

PS - I did some serious editing of the citations from the final Conference reports (rule #62)
| 9142|9041|2013-03-20 12:38:51|Bob S|Editing the BB stories: Earl Treat|
Brian,

Third edition, page 292: Wednesday and Dr. Bob's afternoon off ...

Thank you for following up on the BB story changes in the fourth edition of the BB. My concern was the deletion of the word, Wednesday, on page 263 of Earl Treat's story HE SOLD HIMSELF SHORT. Wednesday was also the day the OG met at T. Henry and Clarace Williams home for the OG meetings. Seemingly insignificant, but who knows how that fact may tie in with some historical research in the future.

Or even for anyone a non-AA history type reader who might have 'discovered' said fact if it had been in the fourth edition BB.

Bob

Robert Stonebraker
212 SW 18th Street
Ricmond, IN 47371-3861
(765) 935-0130
| 9143|9041|2013-03-20 12:39:58|Patrick Murphy|Re: Editing the BB stories: Clarence Snyder|
Two of the reasons they left Snyder's story in until the 4th Edition was that the Third Edtion came out in 1976 and at that time, Clarence was still alive and, AA didn't have the huge diversity it has now. The stories that�were added in the 4th Edition helped�to include areas and life-styles not realized 20 yrs before that. In fact, I think the Book is printed in 51 different languages now.

--Patrick Murphy
| 9144|9144|2013-03-20 13:01:12|Michael Gwirtz|Editing the BB stories: John Henry Ftzhugh Mayo|
I was originally going to respond to Brian personally, but as I thought about it, I thought that more information on the original intent of editing between the first, second , third and fourth editions might be explored by the group.

As one who has studied Jimmy B and "Fitz" M, I am more and more convinced of the Master's hand in the writing of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous." However, man has done some editing.

"Fitz's" story was changed between the First Edition and Second Edition (see earlier AAHL postings). Many lines and paragraphs were removed which alter the content and tone of the story.

I am most concerned with one line in his story (pg 236 4th ed. regular font size) that is repeated on page 56 in We Agnostics ( 4th ed.) now italicized in regular font size. It first appeared in the Big Red as a larger font and emboldened.

The font size on page 69 (Big Red)First Edition 1st printing to 16th printing is as follows:

"WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THERE IS NO GOD?"

which was emboldened, and the same font size as the title of the book ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS) was changed to being italicized:

_Who are you to say there is no God?_

It is in regular font size (second edition pg 56 which distorts the impact produced by the first edition. You can clearly see the difference as it is written above.

The original manuscript has it in large print (page 25 typed on top of page but written as page 29 (in green crayon) in the final copy with Hank P's initial P in pencil. It further says "OK DR & BILL." It was penciled in to be revised to say;

"WHO AM I TO SAY THERE IS NO GOD"

It was red penciled out to how it read on Page 69 of the Big Red (emboldened above).

(See"The book that Started It All" in case you don't own a printer manuscript.)

It also negates what is written on pg XI of the fourth edition PREFACE that says" Therefore, the first portion of this volume , describing the A. A. recovery program, has been left untouched in the course of revisions made for the second, third, and fourth editions." The words are the same but the impact made by the change in Font size does alter the impact on the reader and clearly that means it is not untouched.

The purpose of the book in the Fourth Edition is listed in the "Foreword To The First Edition (pg xiii) which says, "To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book." In "There Is A Solution" 4th edition (page 29) Bill writes, "further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we have recovered. " The Fourth Edition Editor added, "These are followed by forty two personal experiences." "Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God." In the First Edition, first printing, Bill originally wrote (pg. 39) "Further on clear-cut directions are given showing how we have recovered. These are followed by more than a score of personal experiences" (three dozen personal experiences in the second edition).

The 4th edition PREFACE says ( pg XI ) "three were edited and one of these was re-titled."

The reason is unknown to me. I believe it was done to make more room. I imagine every Pioneer of AA was telling Bill that his or her story should be in the book. Perhaps there was unnecessary editing done to make the book less religious. Fitz's story was "choppy" and had many separated paragraphs but it was his story. Whatever the reason, it alters the message that "Fitz" was trying to make.

There is good balance between the religious vs scientific approach to A.A. by the Second Edition with the inclusion of Jimmy Burwell's story "The Vicious Cycle." Why not include the excluded portion of the three edited stories? It is how the authors intended it to read.

How much more content would there be? 12-1400 words I would estimate in Fitz's story. The First Edition story is 15 1/2 pages versus the 10 1/2 pages in the edited version, but all the blank lines between the paragraphs could be excluded.

The PREFACE could be corrected to further explain the reason for the changes made .

Respectfully Submitted,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Going to NAAAW in Springfield IL
See you there ?
| 9145|9053|2013-03-20 13:26:36|Arthur S|Re: When were the first central offices and intergroups?|
I'm still sticking with Cleveland as the first Central Office (October
1939) vs Chicago (March 1941) or (1942 per their web site). In Cleveland
membership grew suddenly and dramatically between October/November 1939 due
to a September Liberty Magazine article and editorials in the Cleveland
Plain Dealer by Elrick B Davis. Cleveland membership surged from twenty to
several hundred and exceeded that of NY plus Akron for several years. Prior
to the Jack Alexander article, Cleveland had about 10 groups. I believe
Chicago was still one group at that time. Until Chicago expanded into
multiple groups, Grace Cultice was a group secretary not a central office
secretary.

From the Chicago AA history on Hindsfoot.org

On September 20, 1939, Chicago had what is known as the first group meeting.
Held in Evanston in Earl's apartment, there were eight present: Earl, Dick
R, Ken A, Sadie I, Sylvia K, George M, Earl's wife Katie and a nonalcoholic,
Grace Cultice, who was to become the group's secretary . By the end of 1939,
the small group had more than doubled. Sunday open houses were held in
Sylvia's apartment. Also by this time the group had set up an office in
Sylvia's apartment and Grace was acting as group secretary, typing the
twelve step calls on 4" x 6" cards and keeping them on file . The first full
time office was opened about October 1, 1941 with Grace Cultice named full
time salaried secretary ... There were about 200 members in the Chicago
Group at this time. Bill W. visited Chicago about this time, possibly to
dedicate the opening of this office.

Info below is from Box 4-5-9 - Vol. 53, No. 4 / August-September 2007 on the
History of Intergroup/Central Offices

In the beginning there was the Central Committee in Cleveland, Ohio, where
by October 1939-little more than four years after Bill and Dr. Bob had their
historical first meeting-a group of seven was meeting once a month, among
other things to coordinate efforts regarding hospitalizations and
sponsorship. Dr. Bob was not only a supporter but an active participant,
according to fellow Akron member Dan K. "Doc used to play an important part
in the Central Committee," Dan reported, and the going could get rough:
"During the meeting, sometimes, the words would fly like you were in a
barroom." One time, he related, "Dr. Bob stood up, hushed the crowd and
said, 'Gentlemen, please. We're still members of Alcoholics Anonymous. Let's
carry the principles of A.A. into these business meetings. You are servants
of your group, here to take the ideas formulated by the committee. Let one
man talk at a time, and let us conduct this business meeting as a service to
the Lord and a service to our fellow members.. ' After that there were no
more brawls when Dr. Bob was around." (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, p.
288-89)

Bill W. acknowledged in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (p. 23) that
"A.A.'s first organized service center" sprang up in Chicago, where an A.A.
named Sylvia utilized her $700 monthly alimony checks (a very large sum at a
time when Bill and Lois were living on $55 a week) to rent an apartment in
the suburb of Evanston, also the locale of the area's first A.A. meeting in
1939. So busy was the phone that Sylvia's nonalcoholic personal secretary
Grace Cultice rapidly evolved into an A.A. girl Friday. By 1941, following
publication of the Jack Alexander article about A.A. in the Saturday Evening
Post, Sylvia's place "became something of a Chicago Grand Central," Bill W.
later affirmed (ibid.), "and something had to be done." So the A.A.s rented
a one-room office in the Loop; there, Bill wrote, "Grace was installed to
direct the stream of applicants for Twelfth Step attention, hospitalization,
or other help."

Cheers

Arthur

- - - -

From: ricktompkins
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013

CHICAGO HAS THE DISTINCTION OF ESTABLISHING THE FIRST CENTRAL OFFICE IN THE U.S.

Grace Cultice, Sylvia K.'s onetime social secretary, became the Chicago
Central Office manager, employed by the Chicago Group from May 1941 to her
death from influenza in 1948.

The primary reason for the Office followed the avalanche of inquiries
brought by the Saturday Evening Post article of March 1941, with the
majority of letters first coming into NYC. Grace, not an alcoholic, and Ruth
Hock, non-alcoholic secretary to Works Publishing and Alcoholic Foundation
"headquarters" in NYC, continued their large amount of 12th Step outreach
correspondence that began in late 1939, advanced by the new Chicago office
with a business address and a phone. After 1942, notebooks could be filled
with the correspondence between Grace and Bobbie B.

The 1942 date found in current Area 19 service material needed correction
when it was first printed; no one has ever taken up this task,
unfortunately.

On a side note, the telephone number for the Chicago Area Service Office is
the same today as listed in the 1951 A.A. Directory: Financial 6- 1475
(312-346-1475 today). The identical telephone number probably is years older
than that, but officially published nationally by the Alcoholic Foundation
in 1951. That's a long stretch of time and continuity!

Rick T., Illinois

Source: An Alcoholics Anonymous History in Northern Illinois Area 20,
Chapter 1 'From Chapters to Sections'-- NIA, Ltd. Second Issue copyright
2003.
| 9146|9146|2013-03-20 13:27:48|brucec55@sbcglobal.net|Box 459, AA Exchange Bulletin|
Hi All

Just to let you know that our aa.org website now has a large collection of the Box 459 (AA Exchange Bulletins) from 1956 to present.

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=27

Their are some issues missing. Our hope is that some of the members of this group may have some of the ones missing.This is a great source of our history. I hope that the same will be done with the Markings Archives Newsletter.

Bruce Cleaver
| 9147|9144|2013-03-21 10:08:27|John Barton|Suggested 75th anniversay replica edit. of the 1st ed. BB|
I hope we can all support 2013 GSC agenda item on the publication of a "75th Anniversary Edition" of the Big Book to be published and released on April 10th 2014. This book will be an exact replica of the book published in April of 1939.

I have it on good authority that this suggestion was made to GSO by an "AA HistoryLover" working through an Area Archives Committee.

This action would put all those original ("unedited") first edition stories back out there for everyone to see, enjoy, learn from and hopefully, identify with!

God Bless,

John B
| 9148|9041|2013-03-21 10:09:57|brian koch|Re: Editing the BB stories: the GSO editing notebooks|
Friends,

My apologies to the group if it came off as me appointing myself anything. It was not my intention. There was some discussion by members of the group regarding the historical significance of changing stories through the editing process. I appreciate the conference information provided; for me, its invaluable to understanding the process.

I think discussion just flow here and i don't know so much about getting out of hand? People involved in the thread seemed genuinely interested in the topic. Personally, it has piqued my interest in the entire editing process over the years.

We learn as we go along, and grow along. I will stick to my own thoughts, experiences, and research, and try not to come across as speaking for everyone. Thank you all for enhancing my sobriety.

Blessings,
Brian

_______________________________________________

From: arthur.s@live.com (arthur.s at live.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013
Subject: Re: Editing the BB stories: the GSO editing notebooks

Hey folks

This began as a question on why a paragraph was deleted from the "Freedom From Bondage" Big Book story and it's getting a bit out of hand. A small handful of people are involved in this topic. I don't know how it escalated into one member appointing himself to "express our concern, as a group, regarding the editing of the stories, as has been discussed here." There is a simple and unemotional explanation for the editing done to some of the 3rd edition stories carried over to 4th edition Big Book. It's documented (interspersed) in the Final Conference Reports spanning 2001 to 2003. It had to do with maintaining the same page count in the 3rd and 4th editions.

Citations from Final Conference Reports:

2002 Trustees Literature Committee: Although the April 2001 trustees' report indicated that sixteen stories would be carried forward from the Third Edition of the Big Book, the Publications Department, with prior consultation with both the trustees' and Conference Literature Committees, added a seventeenth story so that the page count of the Fourth Edition would be the same as the page count of the Third Edition.

2002 Conference Literature Committee: The committee noted . A report from the GSO editor on the editing deletion of the ninth paragraph of the story "Freedom from Bondage" which was included in the Third Edition of the Big Book and which was deleted from the Fourth Edition to create a page count in the Fourth Edition similar to the page count of the Third Edition (discussed but no action taken).

2003 Conference Literature Committee: (1) After lengthy discussion, the committee considered the request to edit the following Fourth Edition Big Book stories to restore their Third Edition Big Book content: "The Housewife Who Drank At Home," "Me An Alcoholic?," "Another Chance" and "Freedom From Bondage," and agreed to accept the Fourth Edition Big Book editorial changes and agreed to take no action. (2) Recognizing the historical nature of the book "Experience, Strength and Hope" and recognizing the fact that editorial changes have been made to various personal stories in later printings of the Big Book, the versions to be printed in "Experience, Strength and Hope" will be the last published version of each story, and those versions remain as is.

Cheers

Arthur

PS - I did some serious editing of the citations from the final Conference reports (rule #62)
| 9149|9041|2013-03-23 09:53:58|Jim M|Re: The BB stories: 1st and 2nd editions|
For those of you who don't know, I have all the Big Book stories, as they appear in�both editions, the 1st and the�2nd editions, on silkworth.net in their entirety. You know the site. Just go there and click on, "Big Book."

Yours in service,
Jim M.
| 9150|9150|2013-03-24 11:18:39|pete kopcsak|Info on a Jim Champlin|
I have a first edition first printing of the Big Book.

It is signed by Bill W., and also has the name Jim Champlin written on the inside cover.

Does anyone have any information about who Jim Champlin might have been? Was he a well known early AA member?

An inscription on the facing page gives the names Pete Boggs and Inez, about whom I have found some information.

Thank you,

Pete K.
| 9151|9151|2013-03-25 10:18:04|Glenn Chesnut|Little Red Book Bulletin Number Thirteen|
The Little Red Book Bulletin Number Thirteen was a little pamphlet mailed out every few months to people who were using The Little Red Book to study the twelve steps. This one is number three, dated 1953.

See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html not quite halfway down the page, at the end of the main Ed Webster section. Ed Wilson and Barry Collins begin by telling their readers that they are sending these leaflets out

"... in real appreciation ... for our privilege of service to you through the medium of The Little Red Book. It has been a privilege, indeed, and we are happy to continue this effort, of help and sponsorship, by sending complimentary copies of Bulletin Number Thirteen to users of The little Red Book. The Bulletin will be edited every few months and mailed to you as a partial fulfillment of
our 12th. Step duty. We hope it may become a means of mutual help to better understanding of the A.A. Program. May it expedite our application, growth and maturity in the Way of Life which we have chosen. This is our humble ambition."

THE FULL TEXT OF THE PAMPHLET (along with a photo of the front page) is then given at:

http://hindsfoot.org/edbull.html

Indiana AA archivist Bruce Cleaver (Muncie, Indiana) found this bulletin, dating from 1953, in the Madison County, Indiana, archives of George and Francis Langellier.

The "Geo. L." written at the top right on the front page of the pamphlet refers to George Langellier, who got sober in June 1943 and was the founder of AA in Anderson, Indiana, see "Adventure of Recovery: The Beginnings of A.A. in Anderson, June 1943 - February 9, 1947" at http://hindsfoot.org/nander1.html

which is part of the collection entitled "HOW A.A. CAME TO INDIANA" at

http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html

Between Bruce Cleaver in Muncie, Indiana, and Robert Stonebraker in Richmond, Indiana, work on Indiana AA archives is being carried out by two hard-working and capable people. They may be contacted at:

<brucec55@sbcglobal.net> (brucec55 at sbcglobal.net)
<brucecl2002@yahoo.com> (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com)

<rstonebraker212@comcast.net> (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

Blessings on both you guys!
| 9152|9152|2013-03-25 10:54:07|Glenn Chesnut|March Dates in A.A. History - from Muncie, Indiana|
March Dates in A.A. History
from the Muncie, Indiana, AA website

http://www.aamuncie.org/March_Significant_Dates_in_AA_History.html

is put together by Indiana AA archivist Bruce Cleaver
<brucec55@sbcglobal.net> (brucec55 at sbcglobal.net)

It is a model for how a good AA date list can be assembled. Bruce lists some very interesting items on local Muncie AA history (and references to Muncie happenings in early issues of the Grapevine and elsewhere). But then he adds to them some major dates from not only early American AA history, but also world AA history.

He gives links to photos and longer articles for people who would like to learn more about this event or that, so it is not just a boring list.

And then he carefully gives the sources of his information for all of these items, whether it be AA Comes of Age, Mel Barger's book on Ebby, Lois Remembers, Dale Mitchell's book on Dr. Silkworth, or what have you. He cites Arthur S. in Fort Worth, Texas, as the one who inspired him to do this, and showed him how to do it -- and it works! -- what we have here is an account of early AA history here that we can trust and depend on.

"AA Members seem to have a warm place in their heart for AA history. AA also has a very strong verbal tradition. Much information is circulated in AA by word of mouth. This has both its good and difficult sides. How do you know what is fact and what is myth? A great deal of myth circulates by word of mouth in AA. To help address this, the timeline items in this paper (history) are cross-referenced to one or more reliable written references. The references provide both corroboration and sources for further investigation and historical research." - Arthur S., TX.

====================================
HERE IS BRUCE'S BASIC LIST FOR MARCH:

http://www.aamuncie.org/March_Significant_Dates_in_AA_History.html

Significant March Dates in A.A. History

March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Works Publishing Inc. established to support writing and printing of the book. (AACOA vii, 153, 159, BW-RT 248-250, LR 197, BW-FH 115, PIO 193, 235, LOH 106-107, WPR 79, HIW 96-99)

March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group. (www)

March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps" Appendix II Spiritual Experience was added. (AACOA 256, www).

March 1946 - The March of Time documentary news film, began production with the cooperation of the New York Central Office. (GV)

March 1948 - Grapevine reports: She's Glad to Be Free!, by R. K., Muncie.

March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob. (www)

March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end. (AACOA vii, 35-36, 190-191, BW-RT 281, LOH 149-150, BW-FH 146, PIO 245-247)

March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415 Lexington Avenue. (GTBT 15, GB 67)

March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born. (WPR 54)

March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA members. (GSO-AC)

March 7, 1940 - Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group. (GSO-AC)

March 7, 1941 - Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 p.m. (www)

March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants to form a group in Wichita. (www)

March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established. (www)

March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic AA members. (www)

March 11, 1951 - American Weekly article on Dr. Bob. (www)

March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941. (www)

March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation & Works Publishing move from Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our own. (BW-RT 268, AACOA 179, 187, LR 129, 197, BW-FH 112, SM S6, PIO 235, LOH 147)

March 18, 1951 - Bob W. ,was elected 1st Delegate to represent Indiana at the General Service Conference. (GSO-AC, meeting transcript)

March 18, 1973 � Anderson Herald report "The Silent Invader" 26th Anniversary in Anderson, IN.

March 20, 1948 � Chicago Herald report a three part series on "American Billion Dollar Problem for Industry Alcoholism". (www)

March 20, 1995 - The New Yorker article "A.A. at the Crossroads". (www)

March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born. (GV June 1950)

March 21 1966 - Ebby dies. (LOH 367, EBBY 143, PIO 336)

March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital. (AACOA 14, SW 110-111, 127, BB xvi, GV April 1951)

March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies. (HIW 224)

March 22, 1981 � Anderson Herald report on "UAW�s Crisis Center" (local archives)

March 25, 1898 - Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born. (www)

March 25, 2005 � Nancy O., Founder of AAHL dies. (www)

March 29, 1943 - The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk at St. John's Parish House. (GSO-AC)

March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England. (GSO-AC)
====================================
| 9154|9154|2013-03-26 09:00:11|Glenn Chesnut|All 12 months - Dates in A.A. History - from Muncie|
Dates in A.A. History for all 12 months - January to December - from Muncie, Indiana:

http://www.aamuncie.org/AA_Muncie_History.html

Thanks to Muncie archivist Bruce Cleaver
<brucec55@sbcglobal.net> (brucec55 at sbcglobal.net)

A beautiful model for other intergroup websites and local AA newsletters to follow.
| 9155|9155|2013-03-27 09:57:55|Joanna|Historical events referred to in Concept VIII essay|
All:

At our pre-conference assembly last weekend we were given the "proposal" by the General Service Board to "unify" the GSB & the GV Boards by means of the "interlocking directorate". Perhaps many of you have seen this proposal.

In reading the proposal, I was moved to read the Concept VIII essay and on the last page, in the last 3 paragraphs, Bill talks directly about why we have 2 boards, but he also refers to times when others have tried to unify the Boards in the past.

"... experience dating from our earliest days strongly suggests that future Trustees and service workers, in the supposed interests of accounting simplicity, tax savings, and hoped-for efficiency, will be periodically tempted to go in for concentrations and consolidations of one kind or another. Should this be again attempted, ..."

Does anyone know what experience Bill is talking about here? Does anyone know when it was attempted the first or other times and what happened then?

Thanks,

Joanna
Area 10
| 9156|9122|2013-03-28 11:12:29|J. Lobdell|Re: Other spiritual experiences like Bill Wilsons White Light?|
As -- among other things -- a church historian [not so much as Glenn] I can tell you that spiritual experiences -- which are not fully expressible in anything like ordinary language -- will likely be described in whatever language the one who had the experience can find to use. Bill's uncle had an experience on Mt Aeolus very like what Bill describes. How much of Fitz's experience was as he described it and how much as Bill re-described it isn't certain and -- since the experience was ineffable -- probably can't be. There are certain similarities in sudden conversion narratives {Bunyan, Alline, Sam Hadley] as William James noted, and the white light is a common enough description even if sometimes metaphoric [if we can tell the difference]. But how much the experiences are objectively the same is unknowable, since the objective observer didn't have them. I'm not sure, beyond James, this is something historians can really do.

______________________________________

From: khemex@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Other spiritual experiences like Bill Wilsons White Light?

I believe you can find what you're asking for at any AA meeting. By going to closed A.A. meetings I have heard stories of many A.A. members who have experienced what Bill Wilson did in Towns Hospital, and I have personally experienced just such an event. I would have to say by my informal survey, that 15 -25% of members that I know have had a sudden involuntary "Gods' Presence" experience.

When I was new I had told an old timer in AA that I had had this experience (incidentally before I ever saw, or read the book Alcoholics Anonymous, or heard of Bill Wilson) and he called me a liar, and said that no one but Bill ever had that experience, so I never told another soul about it. But then I heard a fellow tell his story at his 50th AA anniversary, and he told of the exact same experience. That's when I started my informal survey.

Gerry Winkelman

_____________________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: "Allan Gengler" <agengler@wk.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013

Are there other examples close to Bill Wilson's White Light experience? When the Appendix II was added to mitigate the idea of "spiritual experience" there's this line:

"Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent...."

I'm wondering about the "though frequent" because it seems like most of the stories indicate the "educational variety." Even OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND, referred to in WE AGNOSTICS, although sudden, doesn't seem to hold a candle to Bill's hospital room being filled with white light and the mountain breeze flowing through it.

Are there any others as dramatic as Bill's experience?

BTW I searched "spiritual" in these forums and found many great links, including the book by Glenn Chesnut that I enjoyed reading.
| 9157|9122|2013-03-28 11:44:19|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Other spiritual experiences like Bill Wilsons White Light?|
Jared's words are very wise. The discussion over how to describe spiritual
experiences and experiences of grace goes back all the way to the beginning of
the western theological tradition. The great theologian Origen in the second
century began the serious philosophical discussion about how to interpret "the
spiritual senses." By that is meant that religious texts and reports of
individual spiritual experiences regularly speak of "seeing" things (light, a
long tunnel, floating in the air, the image of a saint, etc.), "hearing" things
(voices of dead relatives, heavenly voices, etc.), "feeling" things (a warmth
spreading through the whole body, a comforting hand on the back of the neck,
something like an electric current, etc.), and even taste and smell.

These obviously cannot be taken literally -- you could not have lit your cigar
off of Moses' Burning Bush, for example -- but they seem to be referring to
something quite real. And unlike drug-induced hallucinations, the experiencer's
whole cognitive framework is changed, down at its foundations, in ways that
remain permanent over months and years to follow, and make the person's life go
much better in objectively measurable ways. Sometimes this kind of language
seems to be merely metaphorical, as Jared has noted, but in other cases people
genuinely feel as though they are seeing or hearing something, even if not in
the physical external sense.

I am doing research now on Father Ed Dowling S.J., who stood very much over on
the radical wing of the mid-twentieth-century Jesuits. We would have to put him
in the same group with the Liberation Theologians, Father Teilhard de Chardin
S.J., and Cardinal Jean Danielou S.J. (who had such a strong influence on the
Second Vatican Council in 1962-1965, which produced such striking changes in the
Roman Catholic Church).

So I've been working on Danielou over the last few months. Danielou was an
expert on the fourth century theologian St. Gregory of Nyssa, who emphasized the
sense of God's "presence" as one of the most important ways that we could know
God. Even when we could see or feel nothing else, after we had pursued the
spiritual life for long enough, we could learn how to "sense" that he was there
with us. And that in turn meant that we felt no fear, even when (like Moses) we
were shrouded in utter darkness at the top of Mount Sinai, going through what
would otherwise be the Dark Night of the Soul.

Cardinal Jean Danielou S.J., "Introduction" to Herbert Musurillo S.J.
(translator and editor), "From Glory to Glory: Texts from Gregory of Nyssa's
Mystical Writings" (orig. pub. 1961 by Charles Scribner's Sons).

So for example, see Danielou, "Introduction" p. 25: "What does Gregory mean by
the knowledge of God in the mirror of the soul? This is a most important aspect
of his mystical doctrine. But there is no question here of any experiential
knowledge of the soul's own substance in the Platonic sense, as E. von Ivanka
has rightly pointed out. It is an awareness of grace; and this awareness is
expressed by Gregory in the doctrine of the spiritual senses which he had
inherited from Origen and developed quite extensively."

Also see "The Spiritual Senses: Perceiving God in Western Christianity," edited
by: Paul L. Gavrilyuk, University of St Thomas, Minnesota and Sarah Coakley,
University of Cambridge
http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledge/isbn/item6491258/?site_locale=en_GB
Is it possible to see, hear, touch, smell and taste God? How do we understand
the biblical promise that the 'pure in heart' will 'see God'? Christian thinkers
as diverse as Origen of Alexandria, Bonaventure, Jonathan Edwards and Hans Urs
von Balthasar have all approached these questions in distinctive ways by
appealing to the concept of the 'spiritual senses'. In focusing on the Christian
tradition of the 'spiritual senses', this book discusses how these senses relate
to the physical senses and the body, and analyzes their relationship to mind,
heart, emotions, will, desire and judgement. The contributors illuminate the
different ways in which classic Christian authors have treated this topic, and
indicate the epistemological and spiritual import of these understandings. The
concept of the 'spiritual senses' is thereby importantly recovered for
contemporary theological anthropology and philosophy of religion.
(pp. 20-22)
seeing god with the "eyes of the mind"
hearing with "spiritual ears"
"breathing Christ in everything"
"the eyes of the inner human being"
"internal ears which are purified"
"the good odor of righteousness and the bad odor of sins"

_____________________________________________________

From: <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

As -- among other things -- a church historian [not so much as Glenn] I can tell
you that spiritual experiences -- which are not fully expressible in anything
like ordinary language -- will likely be described in whatever language the one
who had the experience can find to use. Bill's uncle had an experience on Mt
Aeolus very like what Bill describes. How much of Fitz's experience was as he
described it and how much as Bill re-described it isn't certain and -- since the
experience was ineffable -- probably can't be. There are certain similarities in
sudden conversion narratives {Bunyan, Alline, Sam Hadley] as William James
noted, and the white light is a common enough description even if sometimes
metaphoric [if we can tell the difference]. But how much the experiences are
objectively the same is unknowable, since the objective observer didn't have
them. I'm not sure, beyond James, this is something historians can really do.
| 9158|9122|2013-03-30 13:03:18|Arthur S|Re: Other spiritual experiences like Bill Wilsons White Light?|
Jared

I believe it was Bill's paternal grandfather (not uncle) who had a profound spiritual experience on Mt Aeolus (and stopped drinking as a result).

Cheers

Arthur
| 9159|9159|2013-03-30 13:03:40|Joanna|History of the Concepts|
Does anyone know where I can find the history of the Concepts? No one has answered my request regarding the Concept VIII essay - I have an email in to the Archivist at GSO - I need the information for a letter I am writing to our Trustee regarding the GSB's attempt to consolidate the board under the title interlocking directorate - I realize I have another year, but was hoping to address this situation before the conference, with our Area 10 Delegate and our SW Regional Trustee...

thanks,

Joanna
An AA Group
| 9160|9160|2013-03-30 13:05:40|Roger|What prompted publishing first version AA and the Armed Services pam|
I have reviewed past postings and read "A Summary: Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous 1951-1982".

I may have missed it, if so please point me to it. The first conference advisory action I found related to this pamphlet was in 1971. "It was recommended that the 'AA and the Armed Services' pamphlet now in preparation be directed toward the alcoholic in the armed services rather than the higher echelon, and that A.A. stories of armed services experiences be forwarded to the committee secretary".

I cannot find an advisory action saying in effect something like "that a pamphlet 'AA and the Armed Services' be prepared".

Does anyone know of an advisory action before 1971 where this pamphlet is recommended or even discussed? Could it be that the idea was born somewhere else, perhaps the Trustees Literature committee and did not go through the conference process as an agenda item? From the 1971 advisory action, it seems there was some discussion of the target audience, leaders or the alcoholic in the military.

Any help in this search would be greatly appreciated.

Roger
| 9161|8685|2013-04-04 10:11:13|bILbOY|Re: Silkworth letter|
We often hear that Dr. Silkworth left his name off the letter in the first edition, In order to not damage his medical reputation. But, I have found some of his writings from 1937, Declaring alcoholism as a manifestation of an allergy.

"Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy." Medical Record, March 17, 1937.
http://www.silkworth.net/silkworth/allergy.html

"Reclamation of the Alcoholic." Medical Record, April 21, 1937.
http://www.silkworth.net/silkworth/reclamation.html

Was it really he who wanted his name left off? Or was it left off for some other reason?


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, from: Roy
<royslev@verizon.net> (royslev at verizon.net)

> Anybody got any idea if Silkworth asked Bill to withhold his name from the first edition?
>
> I own a first edition 11th printing and it still reads just:
>
> "(Signed) . . . . . . . . . . . M.D.,"
>
> i.e. not William D. Silkworth M.D.
>
> I know his name did not appear until 1955 and the 2nd edition, but the question is did he ask Bill and the boys to not print his name? Or was it something Bill did as a courtesy? Or maybe after talking it over with Silky who had reservations about learning if his name should be used?
>
> I was just perusing AA Comes Of Age again to see if more was there about the decision to withhold Silky's name, but that detail wasn't covered. Just curious, no big deal, but if you remember reading anything about that fact in Ernie Kurtz or other biographical material, please let me know.
| 9162|9068|2013-04-04 10:19:21|Jim|Re: AAHL archives: which is better, database, text, or PDF?|
For any one interested about the on-going discussion of preserving the
AA History Lovers messages and silkworth.net for generations to come.

I spoke on the phone with Skip Kindle, the top person at Harvard
University concerning archiving, about long term archiving of the AA
History Lovers messages and silkworth.net. Skip talked to me about
archiving all the files, messages and/or pages as a PDF/A file format.
He also mentioned, PDFA-1-FlashB. I also read about existing PDF files
that can be converted to PDF/A files from a site he mentioned. Skip
and I also talked about saving the files as TEXT files as Jim B.
mentioned, and according to Skip at Harvard University, saving the files as PDF/A pretty much runs neck and neck with Text saving for long term access to the files for generations to come. So far, I am betting on the PDF/A conversion.

I have not done a lot of research at this point - only a little at this time. Anyone here interested in this on-going discussion can also help out here, such as anyone here who is more savvy about this subject. But after talking with Skip, it looks as though that saving all files as PDF/A files for future generations is the way to go.

We will see. Here is where he sent me to help out with this subject of
archiving long term for future generations:

http://www.pdfa.org/

I also found this:

http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/standards/pdfa/

- look for the following and click the link: "Making the case for PDF/A and Adobe Acrobat White Paper (PDF: 1.9M)" which takes you to:

http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/pdfs/pdfaforAcrobat.pdf

I will continue research on this subject as I hope some of you will do also to make this a reality for future generations to come. At this point, I am not sure how much work is involved in converting HTML files into PDF/A files and converting existing PDF files into PDF/A files.

Yours in service, Jim M.
| 9163|9160|2013-04-04 10:38:25|Charles Knapp|Re: What prompted publishing first version AA and the Armed Services|
Hello

The following are from the Final Reports of The General Service Conference. My collection only goes up to 2010. Hope it helps

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

1958 The survey of armed forces groups be continued with the view to developing material that can be given to commanding officers of armed forces bases so that they may understand the role that A.A. plays in the recovery of alcoholics in the armed services.

1968 The suggestion that a pamphlet be prepared for Armed Services personnel is being explored and, if it is considered feasible work will be started on it.

1969 "Young People and A.A." with new stories has been completed and will be distributed shortly, while the pamphlet, "A. A. in the Armed Services," is in the works.

1970 The first draft of the pamphlet, "A.A. in the Armed Services," has been reviewed by the Trustees' Literature Committee and is now being considered by the Conference Literature Committee and a selected number of members and non-members in the armed services before completion.

1971 AA. and the Armed Services. Originally, it was felt that there was need for a pamphlet addressed to the higher echelons of the armed services as an encouragement to have AA. Groups on their bases. It is felt that something similar to "Memo to an Inmate" would be an effective way of carrying the A.A. message to the armed services. This suggestion will be forwarded to the Conference Committee on Literature for their opinion before we proceed with the pamphlet. Then a writer will be assigned and stories will be obtained.

1971 The "A.A. and the Armed Services" pamphlet now in preparation be directed toward the alcoholic in the armed services rather than the higher echelon, and that A.A. stories of armed services experiences be forwarded to the committee secretary.

1972 "A.A. in the Armed Services" is still awaiting additional stories. The delegates be asked to look for members willing to write their stories for the proposed pamphlet, "AA and the Armed Services."

1973 Noted that the pamphlet "A.A. and the Armed Services" is completed except for additional stories: by a young A.A. who obtained sobriety in an Army setting, by a marine, and possibly by a woman in the service.

1974 TRUSTEES' COMMITTEE: In cooperation with the Conference Literature Committee, we have worked on or discussed the following: (1) "Is A.A. for You? - Short and Simple" (now available); (2) "A.A. and the Armed Services" (now available);

1985 Projects in Progress .... "A.A and the Armed Services": At the request of A.A.'s in the Armed Services, we are looking for stories of military dependents for possible inclusion in this pamphlet.

1986 Projects Forwarded to the Conference Literature Committee-"A. A. for the Woman" (revised with briefer stories); "Too Young?' (up dated, less flamboyant illustrations); "Young People and A.A." (suggestion to update); "A.A. and the Armed Services" (suggestion to update); A.A. History Outline (definitive history of A.A. from 1955- 1985); 'Twelve Concepts for World Service Illustrated" (similar to ''The Twelve Traditions Illustrated"); the Big Book (recommendation to publish a fourth edition and to consider different formats).

1986 The following pamphlets be updated, if possible. in time for presentation at the 1987 Conference for approval: (a) "Young People and A.A."; (b) "A.A. and The Armed Forces."

1987 Projects in progress--Updating the stories in: "A.A.. and The Armed Services"; "Young People and AA." History of AA., 1955- 1985 is still in the writing stage.

1988 The revision of the manuscript of "A.A and the Armed Services" be accepted with the following changes: The Marine story from the current pamphlet "A.A. and the Armed Services" be included in the revised pamphlet. The manuscript be returned for editing of Charles' story, to include consideration of references to "drug addiction."

1989 The following will be available when current inventory is depleted: "A.A. and the Armed Services revised; "Young People and A.A." revised.

2002 An updated draft copy of the "A.A. and the Armed Services" pamphlet be developed to include current experience of members in the armed services to be brought back to the 2003 Conference Literature Committee for review.

2003 The updated draft manuscript of the "A.A. and the Armed Services" pamphlet be approved. NOTE: This draft manuscript was not distributed to all Conference members based on the 1993 Additional Committee Consideration of the Conference Policy Admissions Committee

2003 Proposed update of "A.A.. and the Armed Services" pamphlet -- A subcommittee was created in response to the 2002 Conference Advisory Action -- An updated draft copy of the "A.A. and the Armed Services" pamphlet be developed to include current experience of A.A. members in the Armed Services .... A request for story submissions was mailed to all Conference members in May and August 2002. A story solicitation letter was also sent to international Armed Services groups in July 2002. Twenty stories were received for consideration by this subcommittee.

The committee accepted with gratitude the updated draft manuscript of the "A.A. and the Armed Services" pamphlet. The proposed manuscript has a total of 14 stories, seven from the current pamphlet and seven new stories. The committee unanimously agreed to forward this draft manuscript to the 2003 Conference Literature Committee for their consideration. The proposed introductory and closing text is very close to that of the current pamphlet. The Publications Department's research indicates that there will be no increase in the 45 cent cost of this pamphlet despite the increased story count from ten to fourteen..

2010 Suggestion that the Conference committee on Literature consider a revision of the pamphlet "A.A. and the Armed Services" that would include new stories reflecting recent experiences.

________________________________
>From: Roger <chief_roger@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013
>Subject: What prompted publishing first version AA and the Armed Services pamphlet
>
>
>I have reviewed past postings and read "A Summary: Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous 1951-1982".
>
>I may have missed it, if so please point me to it. The first conference advisory action I found related to this pamphlet was in 1971. "It was recommended that the 'AA and the Armed Services' pamphlet now in preparation be directed toward the alcoholic in the armed services rather than the higher echelon, and that A.A. stories of armed services experiences be forwarded to the committee secretary".
>
>I cannot find an advisory action saying in effect something like "that a pamphlet 'AA and the Armed Services' be prepared".
>
>Does anyone know of an advisory action before 1971 where this pamphlet is recommended or even discussed? Could it be that the idea was born somewhere else, perhaps the Trustees Literature committee and did not go through the conference process as an agenda item? From the 1971 advisory action, it seems there was some discussion of the target audience, leaders or the alcoholic in the military.
>
>Any help in this search would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Roger
| 9164|9122|2013-04-04 10:42:34|LES COLE|The white light experience on Mt Aeolus|
Hi Art:

I have never come across any documentation about Bill's Paternal side. Can you point me to the info about that grandfather and Mount Aeolus?

By-the-way, I went up on Aeolus a couple years ago, wanting to look at and get my own pic of the quarry entrance near the top which is familiar to all of us as historians, where Bill and Gillie went that night just prior the divorce.

I could not reach the top because the road was washed out.

Best regards,
Les Cole
<elsietwo@msn.com> (elsietwo at msn.com)

- - - -

From: arthur.s@live.com
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013
Subject: Re: Other spiritual experiences like Bill Wilsons White Light?

I believe it was Bill's paternal grandfather (not uncle) who had a profound spiritual experience on Mt Aeolus (and stopped drinking as a result).

Cheers

Arthur
| 9165|9165|2013-04-04 10:51:32|gcb900|Break with Oxford Group: first separate AA group in New York|
Jim Burwell's account:

The next man to be pulled out of the mire, through Towns, was dear old Fitz Mayo who joined the others about November 1936. From this time on the duet became a trio, Bill, Hank and Fitz and they were the spearheads in drunk-saving for the Oxford Group in the New York area. In September 1937 the three concluded that perhaps their technique would be better if they would do their work with drunks outside of an affiliation with a religious organization. Having arrived at this decision, the trio formally resigned from the Oxford Group and concentrated all their efforts on working with alcoholics in Towns Hospital, using Bill's home as a de-fogging station. About this time the first completely alcoholic meetings were held in Bills home on Tuesday evenings and average attendance ran about fifteen, including the drunks families. Even though the trio had separated from the Oxford Group, they still retained a lot of their principles and utilized them in the discussions at these weekly meetings, but at the same time more emphasis was placed on the disease of alcoholism as a psychological sickness. At the same time they stressed spiritual regeneration and the understanding of one alcoholic for another.

The Evolution of Alcoholics Anonymous
By _Jim Burwell - The Agnostic_
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-jb-evolution.html

(Referred to at
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html )

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-jb-evolution.htm

___________________________________________

FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR: also see
A Narrative Timeline of AA History

http://silkworth.net/aafiles/timelines_public.html

1937

Late spring, leaders of the Oxford Group at the Calvary Mission ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St. Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having �drunks only� meetings at their home. The Wilson�s were described as �not maximum� (an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG principles).

Aug, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs separated from the OG.
| 9166|9122|2013-04-04 11:12:56|Matt Dingle|Tom Powers - white light experience - like Bill Wilson|
Glenn,

I found an exchange of letters in the archive at East Ridge between Tom Powers and a well-known minister from CA -- Allan Hunter. Tom and Bill's relationship was certainly strengthened by their mutual experiences of profound spiritual awakening. And this letter exchange gives Tom's account.

(For whatever it is worth -- Tom said that in discussing "White Light" experiences with Bill that they estimated that in early AA members having such experiences were 10 out of 100. And after AA became established the average became about 1 in a 100.)

Matt D.

- - - -

Allan Hunter's letter, September 24, 1960

Dear Tom Powers

This is an informal way of addressing you. But Elizabeth (my wife) and I have been reading and rereading bits of your book (which Eugene [Exman] gave us year ago) and since it means so much to us and meditation group and others around here, I can't resist just telling you how grateful we are.

And also I can't resist asking you this (though of course you don't need to answer it). In one section a man in a mental hospital is reported as hearing some one shout "God. God ... help me" etc.

Who was the man? But maybe that isn't the question. What I'm getting at is rather this. A little more about him. Did he previously to that opening or revelation (where it was given him to discover that at the deepest layer, away down there at the apex of his soul, where the decision whether to live or die is being made) really think that God didn't exist? Or don't you know? And a little more if more is available about why, through what means he became aware, he was led to believe that God did exist after all as helper and as immediate presence.

The reason I ask this is that I like to think of this incident. It says so much that I'd like to have it more vividly in my mind while thinking of it. You are putting a whole philosophy of religion into that incident.

Personally I am convinced, and have been for a long time, that we all have a show window and back of it, when it gets shattered, there is a menagerie where the animals more or less have to be tamed.

But away back behind all this phony self is the real self, the kingdom of heaven, the capacity to have the kind of experience the man in the hospital had ....

Allan A. Hunter

- - - -

Tom Power's reply, 10-16-60

Dear Allan Hunter,

The man in the mental hospital was myself.

Previous to that opening I seriously and sincerely thought that God did not exist. But thinking is only one level of the human being, and although it is an important level and in some situations a critical and determining level, still it is a relatively superficial level.

Quite early in life I knew God to be real. As a child I had several theophanies, one of them very pronounced and leading to ecstasy.

But I forgot them. (One never really forgets, of course. But these early experiences were deeply submerged as the personality-ego took over the life, and at the ordinary level they were effectively forgotten). I lived as a convinced atheist -- not just a parlor atheist but the real, working, gut-variety of atheist -- from my fifteenth to my twenty-ninth year.

On July 6th, 1940, the twenty-ninth day after my twenty-ninth birthday, at about one o'clock in the afternoon, the veil that normally lies before the human being's eyes was suddenly torn away, and I saw clearly, while in full self-consciousness, the living Light which no man can describe and which every man who tries to tell of it helplessly desecrates. It is of such purity and majesty and holiness that I can well understand the angels covering their faces before it. The cleanest of our human tongues and pens are unfit for any kind of service to it. And yet some men who have seen it feel compelled, in spite of their grotesque inadequacy, to witness to what happened to them. I an one of these men.

I tried to tell the doctor who had been treating me what had happened, and I was immediately taken to a mental institution. I think this was fortunate, because I was shattered and needed somewhere to come together again. In the mental hospital I tried to tell them about the vision, and they said that, whatever else might or might not be wrong with me, this vision business most certainly was insanity of the worst sort.

For several weeks I could not at all believe them. I tried but I couldn't; the authority of what had happened was too great. But as time went on and they insisted, I began to think, "Dear God, what if it is insanity after all?" And then I began to see that I never would get out of the mental institution if I stubbornly kept saying that I had seen God.

So I began to agree with the doctors, mendaciously at first, not really agreeing. But as time went on I began to really agree, and when I finally got back to "normal life" I was an atheist again, and now a desperate atheist, clinging to atheism as my defense against the knowledge I was trying to bury, the knowledge that God is real, God is true, God is immediate, God is living Light just beyond the range of "normal" vision.

One year later the struggle to maintain this impossible position broke me down again. There were many complications. I am an alcoholic and my alcoholism had become very much worse. I went back into a mental hospital, a different one, and had shock treatment. Shock literally hurls a person out of the surface-ego and into the deeper parts of oneself. The shocks forced me back to recognize the reality and validity of the July 1940, vision -- to recognize that it was not insanity.

After that I began, haltingly and with many zigs and zags, to try to come to terms with God. I have been trying ever since. One result is that I have been healed of the alcoholism (although remaining, as an alcoholic always does, in danger for life). The vision of the Light has returned several times, but each time it has been less of a shock and burden to the surface man, because there has been preparation and training for its reception.

I know now quite well that God is the only reality, and that the condition of God-eclipse which we "normal" humans regularly experience is only a kind of illness or more precisely a kind of bad dream. There can be a shock if one awakens from the dream too abruptly and without training or preparation. But nothing is so bad as remaining in the dream.

In the course of getting my mental balance back I had to explore of the layers of the inner being. I know the menagerie area you mention. I also know that beyond the layers (or more accurately, at the center of the innermost layer) there lies, not the primordial muck of the Freudian nightmare, but a radiant living Being, the Life Himself, our Lord the Truth, Very God of Very God. Every human being is walking around with this incredible treasure in his breast. And what a surprise every man is in for some day, sooner or later. For indeed there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.

If men in any numbers ever begin seriously to guess the terrible and glorious meaning of these blessed words, all of our troubles will begin to vanish, God is very good to us. He has quite literally given Himself to us. But as yet almost nobody, even among the "believers," really believes it.

Sincerely,

Thomas E. Powers
| 9167|9165|2013-04-08 11:51:38|John Barton|Re: Break with Oxford Group: first separate AA group in New York|
But of course Fitz came in October of 1935 (last day of October if I recall) not November of 1936. Burwell, like Bill was bad with names and dates. Much of his (Burwell's) written accounts of history are good but alas some are also mistaken or hearsay.

Warm Regards,

John B


________________________________
From: "Baileygc23@aol.com" <Baileygc23@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 8:15 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Break with Oxford Group: first separate AA group in New York

Jim Burwell's account:

The next man to be pulled out of the mire, through Towns, was dear old Fitz Mayo who joined the others about November 1936. From this time on the duet became a trio, Bill, Hank and Fitz and they were the spearheads in drunk-saving for the Oxford Group in the New York area. In September 1937 the three concluded that perhaps their technique would be better if they would do their work with drunks outside of an affiliation with a religious organization. Having arrived at this decision, the trio formally resigned from the Oxford Group and concentrated all their efforts on working with alcoholics in Towns Hospital, using Bill's home as a de-fogging station. About this time the first completely alcoholic meetings were held in Bills home on Tuesday evenings and average attendance ran about fifteen, including the drunks families. Even though the trio had separated from the Oxford Group, they still retained a lot of their principles and utilized them in the discussions at these weekly meetings, but at the same time more emphasis was placed on the disease of alcoholism as a psychological sickness. At the same time they stressed spiritual regeneration and the understanding of one alcoholic for another.

The Evolution of Alcoholics Anonymous
By _Jim Burwell - The Agnostic_
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-jb-evolution.html

(Referred to at
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html )

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-jb-evolution.htm

___________________________________________

FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR: also see
A Narrative Timeline of AA History

http://silkworth.net/aafiles/timelines_public.html

1937

Late spring, leaders of the Oxford Group at the Calvary Mission ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St. Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having "drunks only" meetings at their home. The Wilsons were described as "not maximum" (an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG principles).

Aug, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs separated from the OG.
| 9168|8685|2013-04-08 11:53:42|John Barton|Re: Silkworth letter|
FYI - Silkworth staying anonymous to protect his reputation was passed around by Joe and Charlie, but as Bill correctly notes below Silkworth had no problem standing behind his theory ... obviously since he had it published.

John

________________________________
From: bILbOY <bill.ryland164@gmail.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 4:49 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Silkworth letter

We often hear that Dr. Silkworth left his name off the letter in the first edition, In order to not damage his medical reputation. But, I have found some of his writings from 1937, Declaring alcoholism as a manifestation of an allergy.

"Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy." Medical Record, March 17, 1937.
http://www.silkworth.net/silkworth/allergy.html

"Reclamation of the Alcoholic." Medical Record, April 21, 1937.
http://www.silkworth.net/silkworth/reclamation.html

Was it really he who wanted his name left off? Or was it left off for some other reason?

________________________________
--- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, from: Roy
(royslev at verizon.net)

> Anybody got any idea if Silkworth asked Bill to withhold his name from the first edition?
>
> I own a first edition 11th printing and it still reads just:
>
> "(Signed) . . . . . . . . . . . M.D.,"
>
> i.e. not William D. Silkworth M.D.
>
> I know his name did not appear until 1955 and the 2nd edition, but the question is did he ask Bill and the boys to not print his name? Or was it something Bill did as a courtesy? Or maybe after talking it over with Silky who had reservations about learning if his name should be used?
>
> I was just perusing AA Comes Of Age again to see if more was there about the decision to withhold Silky's name, but that detail wasn't covered. Just curious, no big deal, but if you remember reading anything about that fact in Ernie Kurtz or other biographical material, please let me know.
| 9169|9155|2013-04-08 11:56:13|Cindy Miller|Re: Historical events referred to in Concept VIII essay|
I would very much like to know further input by anyone here...when did this happen before?

Our (Eastern Pennsylvania) pre-conference is tomorrow...

In service,
Cindy Miller

- - - -

On Mar 27, 2013, at 4:12 AM, Joanna wrote:

> All:
>
> At our pre-conference assembly last weekend we were given the "proposal" by the General Service Board to "unify" the GSB & the GV Boards by means of the "interlocking directorate". Perhaps many of you have seen this proposal.
>
> In reading the proposal, I was moved to read the Concept VIII essay and on the last page, in the last 3 paragraphs, Bill talks directly about why we have 2 boards, but he also refers to times when others have tried to unify the Boards in the past.
>
> "... experience dating from our earliest days strongly suggests that future Trustees and service workers, in the supposed interests of accounting simplicity, tax savings, and hoped-for efficiency, will be periodically tempted to go in for concentrations and consolidations of one kind or another. Should this be again attempted, ..."
>
> Does anyone know what experience Bill is talking about here? Does anyone know when it was attempted the first or other times and what happened then?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joanna
> Area 10
| 9170|9122|2013-04-08 12:37:32|Glenn Chesnut|Re: The white light experience on Mt Aeolus|
For the story of how Bill's paternal grandfather, William C. ("Willie") Wilson, "saw the light" on Mount Aeolus:

See Glenn F. Chesnut, "Bill Wilson's Vision of the Light at Towns Hospital: December 14, 1934"

http://www.hindsfoot.org/lightbillw.pdf

See page 9 of that article, in the middle of the page, quoting from Francis Hartigan, Bill W.; A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson, 11. The story of how Bill's paternal grandfather, William C. ("Willie") Wilson, "saw the light" on Mount Aeolus.

=====================================
Bill’s paternal grandfather, William C. ("Willie") Wilson, had had a serious drinking problem. But he climbed to the top of Vermont’s Mount Aeolus one Sunday morning, and while praying to God, “saw the light” in some sort of life-changing way. He walked the mile back to East Dorset, and

"When he reached the East Dorset Congregational Church, which is across the street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill’s grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to the shocked congregation. Wilson’s grandfather never drank again. He was to live another eight years, sober."
=====================================

But please keep on reading past that point. A conversion experience in which people "saw the light" was an old tradition in the New England Congregationalist Church, described in detail by Jonathan Edwards in a sermon in 1734. Edwards, who was both a skilled psychologist and the best native born philosopher whom America has ever produced, gives a careful psychological explanation of what goes on when people "see the light" in the religious sense. In particular, they do NOT see actual physical light, which would be superstitious nonsense.

Also see http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

which further refers us to:

Dr. Silkworth in Action c. 1947: A Nurse's Eyewitness Account In an article in the Saturday Evening Post, a nurse describes the way Dr. Silkworth set up his alcoholism ward, and the medications that he actually used, at

http://hindsfoot.org/bellasilkw.pdf

The Effects of Belladonna and Henbane: first hand accounts and detailed descriptions Some long accounts written by recreational drug users describing their own experiences when they took belladonna, plus a few notes on what it feels like to take henbane,
at

http://hindsfoot.org/belladonna.pdf

With (at the end) a note from Lawrence Willoughby, a psychotherapist whose specialty is adolescent alcoholics and drug addicts, who writes:

"In my 35 years of clinical experience, with one of my specialties being the treatment of adolescents who are alcoholics and drug addicts, I have known at least a thousand cases of people who have experimented with using belladonna to get high. Belladonna to the best of my experiences with patients has NEVER produced anything like what Bill Wilson reported happening to him at Towns Hospital. It is always bad. The attempt to claim that Bill Wilson's experience was a hallucination induced by belladonna is the silliest thing I have ever
heard. Where is this coming from?"
| 9171|9122|2013-04-10 12:54:02|LES COLE|Re: The white light experience on Mt Aeolus|
I would like to toss in a thought to this discussion. Many of us can perhaps recall how earlier "comics" in books, cartoons and newspapers regularly put a drawing of an electric light bulb over the head of a character indicating that a realization,or insight had occurred. I'm believing that Bill gained "insight" that moment at Towns ... no matter what religious connotation is attached to it.
| 9172|9172|2013-04-10 13:00:21|Glenn Chesnut|Mel B. - 63 years of sobriety on April 15, 2013|
Mel B., Toledo, Ohio, sober since April 15, 1950, see
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1629

He has published a number of widely read books on the Alcoholics Anonymous program:

New Wine: The Spiritual Roots of the Twelve Step Miracle, 1991.
Walk in Dry Places, 1996.

Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W., 1998.

The 7 Key Principles of Successful Recovery (with Bill P.), 1999.

My Search for Bill W., 2000.

Three Recovery Classics: As a Man Thinketh (by James Allen), The Greatest Thing in the World (by Henry Drummond), An Instrument of Peace (the St. Francis Prayer), 2004.

In particular, he was the principle author of Pass It On, A.A.'s authorized biography of co-founder Bill Wilson.

He has also contributed more than fifty articles to the Grapevine, the international journal of A.A., as well as authoring several Hazelden Foundation pamphlets.

http://walkindryplaces.com/

http://www.walkindryplaces.com/books.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mel-Bargers-Writings/111482742211343

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.111489065544044.15856.111482742211343&type=1
| 9173|9173|2013-04-10 13:00:34|suzsmiff|Bob Erwin - 1940 Washington Star - Victims of Alcohol|
Would anyone happen to have a copy of Bob Erwin's 1940 Washington Star article entitled "Victims of Alcohol Hold Weekly Meetings to Aid One Another in Overcoming Weakness of Drink"?

It appeared in the May 5th, 1940 Sunday Star, and was the first documented mention of an AA meeting in Virginia.

Since the Washington Star ceased publication in 1981 I'm hopeful our past trusted servants in archive service saved a copy.

Know this might be like looking for a needle in a haystack though would you by chance be able to locate a copy if available? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks!
Sue Smith
| 9174|9174|2013-04-10 13:05:49|Glenn Chesnut|Oxford Group: not six steps but 5 Cs|
The Oxford Group never did have "six steps" or "six principles." Over and over again in the AA History Lovers, we have tried to put that old urban legend to rest, but it keeps on coming back up again and again.

THE "SIX STEPS" WERE AA, NOT OXFORD GROUP

The legend is based on some things that Bill Wilson and other AA members said after the 12 steps were written in 1938-39, when people would ask them, "How did people work the AA program before the 12 steps were written?" And they would answer that in the early years, from 1935 to 1938, people who came into AA were asked to do six things, more or less, which were sort of the ancestors of the twelve steps.

We have five different versions of these "six steps," all different. You can easily see that they were never turned into a consistent, regular formal list. For a detailed list see http://www.hindsfoot.org/steps6.html


THE FIVE C's

If you want something numbered, the Oxford Group source of the 12 AA steps was really the 5 C's, more than anything else.

The five C's: confidence, confession, conviction, conversion, and continuance were the basic steps in the process of life changing undertaken by the life changer. It was a method developed in the foreign mission field (Frank Buchman and Sam Shoemaker started out as foreign missionaries in places like China and India). If I were a missionary in places like this, instead of preaching huge revivals, I had to carry out one-on-one evangelism. It was the only way to have any success.

CONFIDENCE: in order to carry the message to someone else, I first had to gain that person's confidence.

CONFESSION: in order to gain that person's confidence, I had to quit trying to appear morally superior, and I had to quit "talking down" to the other person. I had to practice real humility, and begin my confessing some of the really bad things I had done, which had been destroying my life, and confessing these things with thorough and ruthless honesty.

CONVICTION: the person to whom I was trying to carry the message had at least one big sin or character defect or shameful behavior which the person was trying to keep secret from everybody else. These people were inevitably trying to stay in denial, and give excuses and alibis, and keep secret -- even from themselves -- the full realization of how bad their behavior was. They had to stand convicted in their own eyes, and admit to themselves how really terrible and indefensible their behavior was, before they could ever be motivated to change.

CONVERSION: the people to whom we were trying to pass the message had to make a full surrender to God, in which (as the Oxford Group said) they gave as much of themselves as they could to as much of God as they understood (remembering that this was originally being done in a foreign mission field where the person knew little or nothing about the Bible or official Christian doctrine). And real conversion automatically meant going out and "making restitution" as the OG
called it to those whom they had hated and resented in their hearts, or hurt by their actions (in AA this was called making amends).

CONTINUANCE: then the person carrying the message had to provide a context where the other people would not simply fall back into their old ways. This was absolutely necessary, if one wished to do any permanent good. This meant a program of regular group meetings and fellowshipping with other people in the program, accepting advice and criticism from them, practicing prayer and meditation and quiet times, reading good spiritual literature to learn more, turning to God for guidance whenever we had to make decisions, and so on. And
becoming carriers of the message ourselves was the keystone of continuance. In other words, the equivalent of AA steps 10, 11, and 12.
| 9175|9175|2013-04-10 13:07:19|Dani S|Swearing in of new AA Trustees?|
I am in another fellowship where new trustees are sworn in after they're approved by the fellowship.

(They have to repeat vows that reflect their commitment to the steps, traditions, and concepts, as well as a commitment to let go of other service positions so they can focus on service at the world level.)

Does AA have a similar practice when welcoming new members onto the board of trustees? If so, does anyone know the history of it or what wording has been used? I tried to search our archives, but no luck yet.

- Dani
| 9176|9172|2013-04-11 06:28:30|Tom Hickcox|Re: Mel B. - 63 years of sobriety on April 15, 2013|
He was also on an early episode of History Detectives. It was an A.A. topic and he was worried about anonymity, so what did he do? He asked his sponsor. At least that is the story I heard.

Happy anniversary, Mel.

Tommy in Danville
| 9177|9177|2013-04-11 06:48:27|J. Blair|William James and the concept of suffering|
"The Light at the End of Suffering," by Peg O'Connor
New York Times, The Opinion Pages

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/the-light-at-the-end-of-suffering/?smid=fb-share

How much more can I take?

This question has been at the root of the human experience for as long as we have been able to record it, if not longer. It was the lament of Job -- or at least one of them -- and is asked with no less frequency today, in response to circumstances ranging from devastating loss and grief to the typical hardships of a trying job or a long winter.

But where is that actual point at which a person "breaks" or comes to believe not only that her life is devoid of value or meaning, but that the world is, too? The truth is that most people really do not want to ascertain just how much more they can suffer. A vast majority of people would look askance at someone who really wanted to experiment with her limits for suffering. But what if we are to treat it as a genuine question? In some of my recent work in the area of addiction and philosophy, I've found that many active addicts of all sorts confront that limit every day, in ways that those fortunate enough to be free of addiction may never know. For some of them, the process of reaching that limit becomes an opportunity to effect radical transformation of their lives.

A broader understanding of this concept can be found in the work of William James, whose famous work, "The Varieties of Religious Experience," provides significant insight about the limits of misery and its transformative potential. "Varieties" is product of lectures James delivered at the University of Edinburgh in 1901 and 1902. His focus is the experiences of individuals "for whom religion exists not as a dull habit, but as an acute fever." By "religion," James does not mean religious institutions and their long entrenched theological debates, but rather something more akin to an individual spiritual state, which may or may not include belief in a god.

James was uniquely suited to deliver these lectures. He was a physician, philosopher and a psychologist before the field of psychology was part of academe, and someone with a deep, abiding interest in psychic events. He was, in all senses, a student of human nature. He explored this question of what we may call the "misery threshold" because he wanted to know if some people were more capable or more prone to experience "the acute fever" of religious belief. His answer: it is those who suffer most who are inclined to experience that fever. These are the people who fascinated him: those who toed right up to and sometimes over the line of despair and meaninglessness.

James claims in "Varieties" that there are two kinds of people, differentiated from where they live in relation to their misery threshold. Each person, he argued, has a threshold for emotional pain akin to a threshold for physical pain. While some people at the slightest physical pain tend to run to the ibuprofen or painkillers, others seem able to tolerate excruciating physical pain. The same holds for misery.

James calls those who live on the sunnier side of their misery threshold "healthy-minded." Optimism fills their lives, though there are degrees of optimism. Some of the healthy-minded see the glass half full while others see it as half full with something really delicious. These are the sort of people who always look for the bright side and have a soul with "a sky-blue tint, whose affinities are rather with the flowers and birds and all enchanting innocencies than with dark human passions." Though the sunny-side people can be miserable at times, they have a low tolerance for misery. It would take something catastrophic for them to stay on the dark side of their misery lines.

The sunny-siders are somewhat interesting to James, if only because they constitute a type that is almost completely foreign to him. James knew himself and many of his family members to belong to the second category -- "sick souls" and "divided selves," who live on the dark side of their misery threshold. Sick souls tend to say No to life, according to James, and are governed by fear. Sick souls tend to become anxious and melancholic, with apprehension that opportunistically spreads.

The person with a divided self suffers from what James calls "world sickness." This sickness is progressive and James charts its development keenly and compassionately. Those with divided self experience a war within; their lives are "little more than a series of zig zags," their "spirit wars with their flesh, they wish for incompatibles" and "their lives are one long drama of repentance and of effort to repair misdemeanors and mistakes."

Perhaps not coincidentally, this is an accurate description of addiction. James knew a great deal about drunkenness or inebriety, to use the language of his time. For years, his brother Robertson (Bob) was in and out of asylums for the inebriate and spent his final years with James and his wife. This may explain why some of the most compelling first person accounts in James's work of divided selves and sick souls who were later transformed come from people who were drunkards. (This may also explain why Bill Wilson, one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, was so taken with William James. He was able to see himself in these stories and as a consequence, make sense of his own conversion experience when he sobered up for good in 1934.)

James's description tracks our knowledge of addiction accordingly. The first stage of world sickness is what I would call "pleasure diminished." What had previously brought joy or pleasure before now brings it less often and to lesser degrees. For an addict, the buzz just isn't as much fun. It just isn't the same yet she will continue to seek it.

"Pleasure destroyed" is the second stage. More and more things are seen as or end in disappointments; pessimism becomes the most frequent response. The pessimism grows though at this point it still attaches to particular situations in life rather than to the whole of life. An addict will take any disappointment as a reason to use. As more things become disappointing, the more a person will understand herself to have reasons to use.

The final stage in this world sickness is best described as "pathological melancholy." The progression in this final stage is significant. First a person is no longer able to recognize joy and happiness. She experiences a melancholy and dreariness about life that makes her incapable of generating any joy for herself. The next phase is a melancholy in which a person generates an acute anguish about herself and the world. In this stage, a person feels self-loathing and acute anxiety. Her entire being, James would say, is choked with these feelings. Quite significantly, not only does the person see herself as having no meaning or significance, but nothing in the world has meaning. This melancholy leads to a kind of utter hopelessness about the particular conditions in which one lives and the meaning of life in general. With this hopelessness, the drama of repentance and effort to repair will end. It would take too much energy and it just isn't worth it. Nothing is worth anything.

The person in the grips of the worst melancholy experiences a frightening anxiety about the universe and everything in it. At this point, panic and fright completely govern a person. James describes a man who admitted that a "horrible fear of my own existence," came upon him one night. The man suddenly remembered an epileptic patient he had seen in an asylum who had greenish skin and sat "like some sort of Egyptian cat or Peruvian mummy, moving nothing but his black eyes and looking absolutely nonhuman. This image and my fear entered a combination with each other. That shape am I, I felt potentially � I awoke morning after morning with a horrible dread at the pit of my stomach, and with a sense of the insecurity of life that I never knew before, and that I have never felt since." In a letter to a friend after the publication of "Varieties," James admitted this was his very own experience as a young man. He himself had walked right up to the edge of a yawning abyss. James scholars debate the exact date of this crisis, but most locate it some time when James was in his late 20s.

Nietzsche recognized that "when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Kierkegaard realized that some people were more afraid of jumping into that abyss than falling. James understood this fear and saw the potential for transformation "through a passion of renunciation of the self and surrender to the higher power." It is after this renunciation that one can experience "the acute fever" of a spiritual life.

The terms "surrender" and "higher power" and "powerlessness" are apt to leave some people uneasy (they are key phrases and concepts in 12-step programs everywhere). To surrender, in more Jamesian terms, is to make oneself open to new possibilities. To surrender is to stop clutching core beliefs or parts of one's identity so tightly. When one loosens her grip, she makes it possible to hold something -- perhaps very tentatively -- in her hands. In the case of a person whose self worth or humanity has been decimated, it is a matter of being open to the possibility that just maybe she is worthy of a little dignity and respect. Surrendering can be simultaneously liberating and terrifying.

The when, where and how of surrender depends on a person's misery threshold. Someone with a low threshold cannot suffer long and so is willing to make changes. Others will be able to suffer enormously and not surrender until there is nothing left to lose. Each person's "rock bottom" is the point where misery can no longer be tolerated.

"Higher power" may leave even more people uneasy. James, however, uses the term in an elastic way. He does admit that "we Christians" call this higher power "God." But to illustrate what he calls a "higher and friendly power," James uses Henry David Thoreau's description of walking in the gentle mist at Walden Pond. Thoreau wrote, "Every little pine-needle expanded and swelled with sympathy and befriended me." Higher power can be nature, moral principles, patriotism, or a sense of fellowship or good will to others. For some, higher power is "enthusiasm for humanity." Each of these, James might say, takes a person outside or beyond herself and connects her to others and thus can be a higher power.

It is easy to identify the ways that "the acute fever" burned in the Christian saints who engaged in all sorts of acts of self-mortification. But it is not easily spotted in someone who has surrendered to and embraced a higher power about their addictive behaviors; there is no equivalent of sack cloth. There is, however, a unification of a previously divided self. People who know addicts in recovery often see this before the addict herself. A person with the acute fever of sobriety or recovery comes to have a firmness of mind and character. She has clear beliefs and principles and acts from them. She also has stability that is achieved and maintained by keeping various relationships with relatives, friends congruent with personal history, commitments, goals and beliefs. Each of these helps to hold the others steady. Finally, a person who burns with the acute fever of sobriety has equilibrium. She is able to strike the balance between opposing forces, some of which are in her control and others not.

No one person will be immune from all suffering. However, the acute fever transforms a person's life so that the drama, chaos and despair are, as James says, "severed like cobwebs, broken like bubbles." And this, James would proclaim, shows that hope and redemption are just as much part of the human condition.

======================================
Peg O'Connor teaches at Gustavus Adolphus College in St. Peter, Minn. She recently gave a series of talks on philosophy and addiction at Vila Serena in Salvador, Brazil, and Jaywalker Lodge in Carbondale, Colo.
======================================
| 9178|9177|2013-04-11 07:03:11|Glenn Chesnut|Re: William James and the concept of suffering|
William James had an alcoholic brother named Bob.

An interesting paragraph in "The Light at the End of Suffering," by Peg O'Connor:

"James knew a great deal about drunkenness or inebriety, to use the language of his time. For years, his brother Robertson (Bob) was in and out of asylums for the inebriate and spent his final years with James and his wife. This may explain why some of the most compelling first person accounts in James's work of divided selves and sick souls who were later transformed come from people who were drunkards. (This may also explain why Bill Wilson, one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, was so taken with William James. He was able to see himself in these stories and as a consequence, make sense of his own conversion
experience when he sobered up for good in 1934.)"

According to http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/james-letters.html
the brothers and sisters in birth order were: William James (Varieties of Religious Experience), Henry James (the famous novelist), Garth Wilkinson James ("Wilky"), Robertson James ("Bob"), and Alice James.

For more on Alice James (also an interesting figure) see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_James
| 9179|9174|2013-04-11 07:30:20|Arthur S|Re: Oxford Group: not six steps but 5 Cs|
OXFORD GROUP:
Core Oxford Group principles consisted of the "four absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness, purity and love (reputedly derived from Scripture in the "Sermon on the Mount"). Additionally the OG advocated the "five C's" of confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance and "five procedures" of ; 1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution and 5. Sharing for witness and confession.

EARLY ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS:
Prior to the writing of the Big Book, the AA recovery program consisted of six steps that were passed on by word of mouth to new members. There was nothing in writing and it resulted in widely different versions being passed on based on each member's preferences. Three different versions of the six Steps are recorded in AA literature as well as other variations in talks given by Bill W to medical societies and members of the clergy. Some AA literature sources for various examples of the six steps are: 1) a July 1953 Grapevine article "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps" (re "The Language of the Heart" pg 200), 2) "AA Comes of Age" pg 160, 3) "Pass It On" pg 197, and 4) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself Short" pg 263 - 4th edition.

It should be noted however, that the OG did not have anything that they called or considered to be "Steps." It was only the alcoholics in NY and Akron, or what was called "the alcoholic squad" that exclusively had and practiced Steps as their spiritual program of recovery. Some refer to the six steps as "The Six Steps of the Oxford Group." That is incorrect although the OG certainly did strongly influence the principles embodied in the Steps. In a July 14, 1949 letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the OG seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning." In AACOA 39 Bill also wrote: "Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the Oxford Group and directly from Sam Shoemaker their former leader in America and from nowhere else." Personally I think Bill's crediting Shoemaker is a bit overstated. It is also a bit of an oddity that the "the first 100" really didn't practice the 12 Steps (i.e. how does one explain the "precisely" in the often-cited "precisely how we have recovered"?)

The version of the six steps below is from Earl T's story "He Sold Himself Short." Dr Bob was Earl's sponsor. This version of the six steps reflects a more orthodox Oxford Group influence that prevailed in the mid-west:

1. Complete deflation
2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power
3. Moral inventory
4. Confession
5. Restitution
6. Continued work with other alcoholics

The version of the six steps below is in "AA Comes of Age" 160 and "Pass It On" 197 plus a September 1962 Grapevine Article titled "How the Twelve Steps Were Born." It illustrates how wording variations can occur when something is passed on by word-of-mouth.

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol
2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins
3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence
4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking
5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or prestige
6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice these precepts

The version of the six steps below is from a July 1953 Grapevine article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps" (preserved in Language of the Heart 200) and again shows how wording variations can occur when
something is passed on by word-of-mouth.

1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol
2. We got honest with ourselves
3. We got honest with another person, in confidence
4. We made amends for harms done others
5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or money
6. We prayed to God to help us to do these things as best we could

In the July 1953 Grapevine Article, Bill W wrote: "Though these principles were advocated according to the whim or liking of each of us, and though in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by the Oxford Group absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness and love, this was the gist of our message to incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our present Twelve Steps were put to paper." The Twelve Steps were actually first put to paper in December 1938 at Bill's home at 182 Clinton St in Brooklyn, NY. Bill claimed it took him only about thirty minutes to do it. Much (often heated) debate on the wording of the new Twelve Steps continued right up to the publication of the Big Book in April 1939.

The original draft of the Twelve Steps has been lost. However, there is an approximate reconstruction of them in "Pass It On" 198-199 as shown below:

==========================================
EARLIEST VERSION OF THE A.A. TWELVE STEPS:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that God could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care and direction of God.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely willing that God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly on our knees asked Him to remove these shortcomings -- holding back nothing.
8. Made a complete list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of action, we tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
==========================================


Cheers

Arthur

______________________________________________

From: Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2013
Subject: Oxford Group: not six steps but 5 Cs

The Oxford Group never did have "six steps" or "six principles." Over and over again in the AA History Lovers, we have tried to put that old urban legend to rest, but it keeps on coming back up again and again.

THE "SIX STEPS" WERE AA, NOT OXFORD GROUP

The legend is based on some things that Bill Wilson and other AA members said after the 12 steps were written in 1938-39, when people would ask them, "How did people work the AA program before the 12 steps were written?" And they would answer that in the early years, from 1935 to 1938, people who came into AA were asked to do six things, more or less, which were sort of the ancestors of the twelve steps.

We have five different versions of these "six steps," all different. You can easily see that they were never turned into a consistent, regular formal list.

For a detailed list see http://www.hindsfoot.org/steps6.html

THE FIVE C's

If you want something numbered, the Oxford Group source of the 12 AA steps was really the 5 C's, more than anything else.

The five C's: confidence, confession, conviction, conversion, and continuance were the basic steps in the process of life changing undertaken by the life changer. It was a method developed in the foreign mission field (Frank Buchman and Sam Shoemaker started out as foreign missionaries in places like China and India). If I were a missionary in places like this, instead of preaching huge revivals, I had to carry out one-on-one evangelism. It was the only way to have
any success.

CONFIDENCE: in order to carry the message to someone else, I first had to gain that person's confidence.

CONFESSION: in order to gain that person's confidence, I had to quit trying to appear morally superior, and I had to quit "talking down" to the other person. I had to practice real humility, and begin my confessing some of the really bad things I had done, which had been destroying my life, and confessing these things with thorough and ruthless honesty.

CONVICTION: the person to whom I was trying to carry the message had at least one big sin or character defect or shameful behavior which the person was trying to keep secret from everybody else. These people were inevitably trying to stay in denial, and give excuses and alibis, and keep secret -- even from themselves -- the full realization of how bad their behavior was. They had to stand convicted in their own eyes, and admit to themselves how really terrible and indefensible their behavior was, before they could ever be motivated to change.

CONVERSION: the people to whom we were trying to pass the message had to make a full surrender to God, in which (as the Oxford Group said) they gave as much of themselves as they could to as much of God as they understood (remembering that this was originally being done in a foreign mission field where the person knew little or nothing about the Bible or official Christian doctrine). And real conversion automatically meant going out and "making restitution" as the OG called it to those whom they had hated and resented in their hearts, or hurt by their actions (in AA this was called making amends).

CONTINUANCE: then the person carrying the message had to provide a context where the other people would not simply fall back into their old ways. This was absolutely necessary, if one wished to do any permanent good. This meant a program of regular group meetings and fellowshipping with other people in the program, accepting advice and criticism from them, practicing prayer and meditation and quiet times, reading good spiritual literature to learn more, turning to God for guidance whenever we had to make decisions, and so on. And becoming carriers of the message ourselves was the keystone of continuance. In other words, the equivalent of AA steps 10, 11, and 12.
| 9180|9174|2013-04-11 07:31:44|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Oxford Group: not six steps but 5 Cs|
From Laurie A. -- see also previous messages such as

Message 7483 -- Dr. Bob's fourth step
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7483

Message 5118 -- Re: Fifth steps in early AA
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5118?threaded=1&l=1
| 9181|9172|2013-04-11 07:33:56|Cherie' H.|Re: Mel B. - 63 years of sobriety on April 15, 2013|
Congratulations Mel on your 63 years of sobriety. I have learned so much
about this program from you. Thank you. Hoping we can get you here to
Michigan again soon to speak.

AA Love and Hugs
Cherie'
Warren, MI
DOS 04/26/01

<http://www.indiegogo.com/ronhartsigbenefit>
| 9182|9182|2013-04-11 08:31:05|Glenn Chesnut|Irma Livoni suicide|
Is there other corroboration to this story that Irma Livoni committed suicide after receiving the letter kicking her out of AA? Jackie B. mentioned the story to me (she is the one who writes the good AA plays) and I found this one reference online:

http://www.scanneronline.org/2010/07/queers-crackpots-and-fallen-women.html

By Jim S on July 18, 2010

I had a discussion with Peter C. about a surprising direct link between the Third Tradition and the SCA [Sexual Compulsives Anonymous] program.

Irma Livoni was an AA member, in Los Angeles, who was kicked out of that fellowship by a self-appointed group. Why? In a letter dated December 6, 1941 from the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, Irma was kicked out "for reasons which should be most apparent." According to Peter, she was sleeping around in AA. Sexually compulsive perhaps?

She received her letter the on December 8, 1941 -- the day after Pearl Harbor. Los Angeles was totally blacked out because there was a real fear that the Japanese would attack the mainland. She's all alone. It's Christmas time. The end of the world and the only group that had offered any hope to Irma had just kicked her out.

Much of this has been whitewashed on the internet sites but according to Peter, Irma went to the roof of her building and jumped to her death.

Irma's sponsor in AA was Sybil Corwin. (Sybil is an important part of AA history herself) Sybil wrote to Bill W about the incident.
| 9183|9172|2013-04-11 08:32:07|bernadette macleod|Re: Mel B. - 63 years of sobriety on April 15, 2013|
Congratulations indeed to Mel B. I have read most of Mel's books and heard him speak at our Archives Breakfast in the Greater Toronto Area when he was our guest speaker. Wonderful! and love your postings, Mel.

Yours in Service,
Bernadette M.
King City Group
DOS 11/20/90
| 9184|9172|2013-04-16 11:51:32|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Mel B. - 63 years of sobriety on April 15, 2013|
From Laurie Andrews, Sherry C. H., Cherie' H., Norm The Tinman

- - - -

Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Mel also wrote a series of "Letters from America" for "Share" magazine (British equivalent of "Grapevine) in 2006/7 when I was editor. And he spoke at AA gatherings in London and Chelmsford, England, en route to visit friends in Europe. I was pleased to escort him for part of the time. He gave a mesmerising pitch at the meeting in a treatment center in Chelmsford and ended by singing his own song about Bill and Bob - how about putting the words on historylovers, Mel?

Laurie A.

- - - -

"hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net> (hartsell at etex.net)

May I tag onto this congratulatory note and add my thanks for your sobriety Mel, and for your writing efforts which have contributed so mch to "this journey" we share.

Sherry C.H.,
In the beautiful Piney Woods outside Gilmer, Texas
12-28-67

- - - -

"Cherie' H." <odaat5@gmail.com> (odaat5 at gmail.com)

I saw Mel on the history lovers channel when he did that quite a few years ago. He was acknowledged as an AA Historian, not a member of AA. Mel knows SO much history. And the books he has written, of which I have quite a few, are full of knowledge about AA History.

AA Love and Hugs
Cherie'
Warren, MI
DOS 04/26/01

- - - -

From: Norm The Tinman <normtinman@yahoo.com>

Congratulations Mel B on 63 yrs of sobriety and thanks so much for what you have passed on to me and have given the fellowship--

Norm Langille--a Nova Scotia drunk
| 9185|9172|2013-04-16 12:03:04|Byron Bateman|Mel B. - 63 years of sobriety on April 15, 2013|
Mel B. did not identify himself as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous ... He was speaking simply as an historian, which would not be a violation of either anonymity tradition as I understand anonymity. William B. likewise did not claim anywhere that he was a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

I have the short video episode of "The History Detectives" from Season Four, Episode 7, and the link below gives a preview of this segment of that episode. The second link should be the pdf complete transcript. The audio/video is of course exactly as the transcript is worded.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/alcoholics-anonymous-letter/

Here is a link to the transcript. If it doesn't display, download the transcript from the first link.

http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/static/media/transcripts/2011-05-11/407_aaletter.pdf


Byron B.
| 9186|9186|2013-04-16 12:29:59|jdavidfarrell|Paul O. pamphlet|
Paul O. (Acceptance Was the Answer and Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict} wrote a pamphlet for AA warning of the dangers of prescribing drugs to alcoholics. I have not been able to locate the name of this pamphlet. If anyone knows where I might be able to obtain a copy of it, I would be most appreciative.
| 9187|8888|2013-04-16 12:34:25|John Barton|Re: Dr. Bobs definition of humility|
FYI - In spite of the fact that this plaque does not seem genuine, it is being sold at Dr. Bob's house as though it was authentic, as a laminated, frame-able piece. See attached.

God Bless,

John B


________________________________
From: Bill <william.demeulenaere@gmail.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:50 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Dr. Bobs definition of humility

I'm astonished not to have seen any reaction to the message below.

William

Message #8888 from Dani S
(claritystone at gmail.com) said:
> I've seen a photo of that plaque that it's said Dr. Bob had on his desk, or in his office, that was his definition of humility.
> ================================================
> "Perpetual quietness of heart. It is to have no trouble. It is never to be fretted or vexed, irritable or sore; to wonder at nothing that is done to me, to feel nothing done against me. It is to be at rest when nobody praises me, and when I am blamed or despised, to have a blessed home in myself where I can go in and shut the door and kneel to my Father in secret and be at peace, as in a deep sea of calmness, when all around and about is seeming trouble."
> ================================================
And Dani wanted to know more about it.

- - - -

FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR: the reaction from most AA historians is that this is just another one of those URBAN LEGENDS that start floating around in AA. Who knows where they originally come from?

See the message from Bill Lash:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1772

"Please keep in mind that Dr. Bob's kids (Sue Smith Windows and Bob
Smith Jr./"Smitty") have both been asked about this plaque and (although they were both in Dr. Bob's office many times) have stated that they had never seen this plaque in Dr. Bob's office.
Just Love,
Barefoot Bill"

- - - -

For more info see this little piece by MEL BARGER:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/INFO%20LIST/DrBobsPlaque.htm

From: Mel B.

Author is Andrew Murray, a South African religious leader and writer who lived from 1828-1927-searched and found by Anne K., an AA member with library experience. The results of her research was printed in "The Point" a newsletter of the Intercounty Fellowship of AA in San Francisco.

Andrew Murray, He Almost Stopped a True Revival! by David Smithers

Soon after coming to Christ, I was given two small paperbacks written by Andrew Murray, "The Prayer Life" and "Waiting on God". It seemed with each new chapter came fresh insights and new experiences in prayer. As a young believer, these writings greatly helped me to define and establish my personal prayer life. The principles conveyed in those little dog-eared books still continue to have a significant influence upon my prayer life and ministry. Almost twenty years later, I am only now beginning to feel that I truly understand the depth of what Andrew Murray was writing about! Most works on prayer direct you to a process of prayer, but Mr. Murray's writings direct you to the person of prayer - JESUS CHRIST.

Birthplace & Home

Andrew Murray was born on May 9th, 1828 in a Dutch Reformed parsonage in Graaff Reinet, South Africa. It was here that his father, the Rev. Andrew Murray, Sr. was ministering to the Dutch settlers. The Murray home was a vibrant and active place filled with the lively sounds of joy, prayer, and worship. Every Friday evening Andrew Murray's father would gather his family together and read them moving accounts of past revivals. He would then retire to his study and pour out his heart in prayer for revival to come to South Africa. This had been his weekly habit since 1822. Young Murray also benefited from several other fine examples of Christian zeal and devotion. Such men as David Livingstone and Robert Moffat frequently passed through their home on their way to the coast.

William C. Burns

In 1838, at the age of ten, Andrew left home with his brother John to study in Scotland. They stayed with their uncle, the Rev. John Murray. In the spring of 1840 the uncle introduced the boys to the revival ministry of William C. Burns. This renowned Scottish revivalist left a deep and lasting impression on the youthful Andrew Murray. The twelve-year-old Murray must have been thrilled when Mr. Burns invited him to carry his Bible and cloak as they walked together to the revival meetings in Aberdeen. Years later, Murray could still vividly recall the power of Burns' godly influence upon his life. His sincerity, fervent praying, and penetrating preaching all helped Andrew Murray define his own personal ministry and calling. The influence of one generation's Spirit-filled ministry often waters the seeds of another generation's harvest.

Pastor Blumhardt

After graduating from Marischal College in 1844, the two brothers went to Utrecht, Holland, for the purpose of further study in theology and the Dutch language. Religious life at this time in the Netherlands was at a low ebb and rationalism had crippled many of the pulpits and seminaries. Much like the Wesley brothers and the Holy Club at Oxford, John and Andrew joined a zealous group at the college called "Sechor Dabar" (Remember the Word).

Here they found like-minded brethren, warm fellowship, and true missionary zeal. During a vacation from their classes, the brothers visited Germany, where they had the opportunity to meet Pastor Blumhardt. This remarkable man had been used to bring revival to the Renish province in Germany. This revival was marked by extraordinary manifestations of deliverance and healing the sick through prayer. "Andrew saw firsthand the ongoing work of God's power in his own time."

The Boy Preacher

The two brothers were ordained at The Hague on Andrew's twentieth birthday, leaving soon afterwards to begin their work in South Africa. Andrew appeared to be barely more than a child when he first returned to Africa. At twenty years old, he looked much younger than his age. An Old Dutch farmer was once heard to say, "Why, they have lent us a girl to preach to us." Nevertheless, in spite of Murray's fragile appearance, there was no end to his endurance and zeal. He would often go out for weeks at a time on horseback to hold meetings for the Boers, (Dutch-speaking South African farmers). These spiritually hungry farmers would come from literally hundreds of miles to listen to this "boy preacher". A temporary church of reeds would be quickly erected and then surrounded by hundreds of big Dutch farm wagons. It was during such ministry ventures, that the young Mr. Murray began to give expression to the fire and fervency so often associated with his classic
writings on prayer and the Deeper Life.

Preparation for Revival

In 1860 Andrew Murray accepted a call to pastor the church at Worcester. His induction to the church coincided with a revival and missions conference made up of 374 South African ministers. The conference was planned for the specific purpose of encouraging spiritual revival and recruiting new workers and missionaries for the Dutch Reformed churches of South Africa. At the beginning of the conference a paper was handed out which traced the news of the recent revival in America and Britain. The attending ministers were strongly encouraged to expect and pray for a similar move of God in South Africa. A Dr. Robertson spoke on their great need for revival, followed by a Dr. Adamson who then gave a detailed report on the recent awakening in America. Andrew Murray, Sr. attempted to address the gathering, but was unable, being overcome with brokenness and tears.

Overall, the conference was a great success, encouraging fresh hope and prayer among the attending ministers.

Shortly after the conference, a meeting of young people was held at the church on a Sunday evening. It was at this meeting that the Spirit of revival unexpectedly broke out. The meeting moved along as expected, until an unassuming 15-year-old black girl stood up to pray. Mr. Murray's associate, J. C. deVries, was overseeing the prayer meeting and gives us an eyewitness account of these extraordinary events. "On a certain Sunday evening there were gathered in a little hall some sixty young people. I was the leader of the meeting, which began with a hymn and a lesson from God's Word, after which I prayed. Three or four others gave out a verse of a hymn and prayed, as was the custom. Then a colored girl of about fifteen years of age, in service with a nearby farmer, rose at the back of the hall and asked if she too might propose a hymn. At first I hesitated, not knowing what the meeting would think, but better thoughts prevailed, and I replied, 'Yes.' She
gave out her hymn-verse and prayed in moving tones. While she was praying, we heard, as it were, a sound in the distance, which came nearer and nearer, until the hall seemed to be shaken; with one or two exceptions, the whole meeting began to pray, the majority in audible voice, but some in whispers. Nevertheless, the noise made by the concourse was deafening. A feeling, which I cannot describe, took possession of me."

Offended by Revival

While this meeting was going on, Andrew Murray was preaching in another section of the church. He was not present during the beginning of these events. When his own service was over, an elder passed the door of the prayer meeting, heard the noise, peeked in, and then ran back to get Mr. Murray. J. C. deVries vividly recalls Murray's surprising reaction to the young people's meeting, "Mr. Murray came forward to the table where I knelt praying, touched me, and made me understand that he wanted me to rise. He then asked me what had happened. I related everything to him. Then he walked down the room for some distance and called out as loudly as he could, 'People, silence!' But the praying continued. In the meantime, I kneeled down again. It seemed to me that if the Lord was coming to bless us, I should not be upon my feet but on my knees. Mr. Murray then called loudly again, 'People, I am your minister, sent from God! Silence!' But there was no stopping the
noise. No one heard him, but all continued praying and calling on God for mercy and pardon. Mr. Murray then returned to me and told me to start the hymn-verse commencing 'Aid the soul that helpless cries'. I did so. But the emotions were not quieted and the meeting went right on praying. Mr. Murray then prepared to depart, saying, 'God is a God of order, and here everything is confusion!' With that he left the hall."

Revival Praying & Power

Prayer meetings were spontaneously organized every evening after that. The order of these meetings was usually the same each time, although no one set it. At the beginning there was generally great silence; no efforts were made to stir up emotions, but after the second or third prayer the gathering would suddenly begin to simultaneously cry out in prayer. This was definitely not the custom of the Dutch Reformed churches at that time, nor did anyone ever teach them to do this. Sometimes the gathering would continue until three in the morning; even then, many wished to stay longer.

As the people returned to their homes in the middle of the night they went singing joyously through the streets. The prayer meeting quickly grew and had to be moved to a nearby school building. Eventually, this facility also proved to be far too small for the crowds of God-hungry seekers. "In places where prayer meetings were unknown a year before, now the people complained because meetings ended an hour too soon! Not only weekly but daily prayer meetings were demanded by the people, even three times a day - and even among children." The revival shook the entire countryside. The young and old, rich and poor, blacks and whites were all equally affected by the revival. "It was quite amazing that the awakening was not confined to the towns and villages, but felt in totally isolated places without outside contacts, even on remote farms, where men and women were suddenly seized with emotions to which they had been utter strangers a few weeks or even days
before." People were frequently gripped with intense conviction. Strong men cried out in anguish while others fell to the ground unconscious and had to be carried out of the meetings.

Learning about Revival

J. C. deVries gives us a further account of Mr. Murray's difficulty in accepting these manifestations as from God. J. C. deVries writes, "On the first Saturday evening in the larger meeting-house, Mr. Murray was the leader. He read a portion of Scripture, made a few observations on it, engaged in prayer, and then gave others the opportunity to pray. During the prayer, which followed his, we heard again the same sound in the distance.

It drew nearer and nearer and then suddenly the whole gathering was praying.

That evening a stranger had been standing at the door from the beginning of the meeting, watching the proceedings. Mr. Murray descended from the platform and again moved up and down among the people, trying to quiet them.

The stranger then tiptoed forward from the door, touched Mr. Murray gently, and said in English, 'I think you are the minister of this congregation. Be careful what you do, for it is the Spirit of God that is at work here. I have just come from America, and this is precisely what I witnessed there."

Andrew Murray had been offended by the intense outbursts of emotional praying, and sought unsuccessfully to control and calm the meetings.

However, after this incident he apparently stopped trying to manhandle the Holy Spirit. He learned to accept these sudden outbursts of prayer and strong emotions as the work of God. His father, Andrew Murray, Sr. also confirmed that these stirrings were genuine, stating, "he blessed God that he lived to witness such a work of the Spirit". Mr. Murray's strong reaction seems to stem from the fact that these particular revival manifestations exceeded his own personal experience and sense of propriety. Though he had earnestly prayed for revival, studied reports about revival and even witnessed a measure of revival himself, he still failed to anticipate his own response to the supernatural nature of a revival in his own church.

Revival & Broken Expectations

Mr. Murray's expectations about proper church order and that of the Holy Spirit's were obviously quite different. Broken expectations, if left unchecked, can lead to confusion, frustration and even harsh criticism. When the crowd in Jerusalem rushed to observe the miracle of Pentecost, Acts 2: 6 notes that many of the onlookers were "CONFUSED". These feelings of confusion obviously caused some to become offended, resulting later in them openly ridiculing the work of the Holy Spirit. -(Acts 2:6-13). Mr. Murray's new revival experiences eventually taught him not to judge every seemingly confusing situation as the result of a lack of proper order. Often we experience strong feelings of confusion or even frustration when we are suddenly placed in an unexpected or unfamiliar situation. All of us have surely struggled with feelings of confusion or anxiety while trying to find our bearings in an unfamiliar city or country. The source of our confusion was not a
lack of proper order, but our own unfamiliarity with our new surroundings and circumstances.

Acts 2:6 is not suggesting that God is the author of disorder and confusion! On the contrary, this verse serves to remind us that our natural sense of protocol and order is sometimes quite different than the divine order of Heaven come down to earth. When we are suddenly surprised or confused by unfamiliar events, we must guard against thoughtlessly rejecting them simply because they are new to our personal experience. Only a PROUD heart rushes in to condemn what it does not understand! We must carefully examine all things according to the Scriptures, rather than by our personal preferences and traditions. Then and only then will we be prepared to hold fast to what is good in the coming days. -(1Thes 5:21).

Revival & the Keswick Convention

The lessons learned during this revival helped prepare Andrew Murray for his future role in the influential Keswick movement. Mr. Murray attended the Keswick Convention for the first time in 1882. In 1895, he was asked to speak at both the Keswick and Northfield Conventions. Murray was warmly received at these conferences and was later responsible for bringing the Keswick movement to South Africa. The Keswick Convention was itself, the indirect fruit of this wonderful season of awakening. The revival touched at least four different continents, bringing with it a renewed faith and vision for personal holiness and the Spirit-filled life. It was this liberating message that soon became synonymous with Andrew Murray's personal ministry.

The birth of the Keswick Convention united the emerging European Holiness Movement and thereby helped to channel the fire and energy of what became known as the "Third Great Awakening". However, the Keswick Convention did much more than merely unify and preserve the remaining fruit of this great revival. With a clear call to personal holiness through faith in Christ, the Keswick movement helped to prepare a new generation for the next move of God.

Those attending the conventions were always strongly encouraged to embrace a lifestyle of holiness, unity and prayer. In the 1902 Keswick Convention, five thousand Christians agreed to form home prayer circles for a worldwide outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of these Keswick praying bands was no doubt realized through the Welsh Revival of 1904. R. B. Jones, Jessie Penn-Lewis, and F. B. Myer all considered the Keswick Convention as one of the hidden springs of the Welsh revival. Through the biblical teaching of men like Andrew Murray, J. Elder Cumming, Evan Hopkins, F. B. Myer and many others, thousands of Christian workers and missionaries were empowered and purified to enter a new millennium of global harvest.

James Hudson Taylor, A. T. Pierson, Samuel Zwemer and many other missionary mobilizers regarded the Keswick Convention as one of the finest "hunting grounds" for the best missionary recruits. Here again we find it to be true, that the influence of one generation's Spirit-filled ministry often waters the seeds of another generation's harvest.

Andrew Murray's Closing Days

On January 18th, 1917, Andrew Murray crossed over into Glory. He entered into Heaven the same way he lived on earth, praying and urging others to pray. Few men have ever impacted more souls for the cause of the Spirit-filled life than Andrew Murray. He was arguably the Church's most prolific writer on the subject of prayer and the Deeper Life, publishing some 240 books between 1858 and 1917. Several of these books have been translated into as many as fifteen different languages. Soon after the Christian Literature Society for China translated Mr. Murray's book, "The Spirit of Christ" into Chinese, revival reportedly broke out in Inland China. Even today his writings are still shaping the way multitudes of hungry Christians think about prayer and the Spirit-filled life.

Learning from our Forefathers!

Andrew Murray unquestionably was a man of rare gifts and deep spiritual insight, yet he almost quenched a genuine revival. He was raised in a home where his father had faithfully prayed for more than 30 years for revival. Nevertheless, for a time he stubbornly opposed the long-awaited answer to his father's prayers. As a boy he had delighted in the revival ministry of William C. Burns and while in Germany he witnessed the miraculous ministry of Pastor Blumhardt. Yet, when personally confronted with revival manifestations in his own church, he opposed them. I do not write these things to dishonor the memory of one of our respected fathers of the faith, but rather to pose an important and timely question. If such a gifted man as Andrew Murray could fail to recognize the Spirit of revival, while in the midst of preparing for revival, how much more are we capable of making the same mistake? This generation of Christians must be willing to learn from the
experiences, insights, and errors of our spiritual forefathers if we are to be prepared for the next move of God. Are you willing to LEARN?

Resources Used:
The Life of Andrew Murray of South Africa by J. Du Plessis,
Andrew Murray and His Message by W. M. Douglas,
Andrew Murray: Apostle of Abiding Love by Leona Choy,
"THE LIFE OF FAITH, JANUARY 26,1967" St. Andrew of South Africa by N. L. Cliff,
Andrew Murray by Dr. William Linder,Jr.
Northfield Echoes Vol. 6 Northfield Conference Addresses for 1899 Edited by Delavan L. Pierson,
Evangelical Awakenings in Africa by J. Edwin Orr,
The Fervent Prayer: The Worldwide Impact of the Great Awakening of 1858 by J. Edwin Orr,
The Holiness Revival of the 19th Century by Melvin Easterday Dieter,
The Keswick Convention: Its Message, Its Method and Its Men by C. F. Harford,
Keswick from Within by J. B. Figgis,
These Sixty Years: The Story of the Keswick Convention by Walter B. Sloan,
So Great Salvation: The History & Message of the Keswick Convention by Steven Barabas,
Scotland's Keswick by Norman C. Macfarlane,
The Forward Movement of the Last Half Century by A. T. Pierson, Reviv
| 9188|9175|2013-04-16 12:52:33|Abd ul-Rahman Lomax|Re: Swearing in of new AA Trustees?|
Message # 9175 from Dani <claritystone@gmail.com> (claritystone at gmail.com)
====================================================
I am in another fellowship where new trustees are sworn in after they're approved by the fellowship. (They have to repeat vows that reflect their commitment to the steps, traditions, and concepts, as well as a commitment to let go of other service positions so they can focus on service at the world level.) Does AA have a similar practice when welcoming new members onto the board of trustees? If so, does anyone know the history of it or what wording has been used? I tried to search our archives, but no luck yet. -- Dani
====================================================

I was involved in another fellowship at the World Conference level,
and have seen, in other fellowships, practices that deviate widely
from the vision incorporated in AA structure.

In this other fellowship, all trustee positions were elected at the
Annual Conference (in three rotating tranches). All were members of
the fellowship. And ... they were widely inexperienced, for simple
structural reasons. And the Board was unable to carry out its central
function, and I later saw that Fellowship almost go bankrupt, as a
result. Knowledge of the Twelve Concepts among these other fellowship
has been rare, and other ideas get inserted, readily.

>(They have to repeat vows that reflect their commitment to the
>steps, traditions, and concepts, as well as a commitment to let go
>of other service positions so they can focus on service at the world level.)

This assumes they are members of the fellowship. I'm not a member of
AA, though I certainly do have a desire to stop drinking. I've said
it that way, on the rare occasions when I've spoken at an (open) AA
meeting. I have a desire to stop *your* drinking! Stop it!

I.e, I qualify for Al-Anon, technically, though it was only my
primary fellowship for a short time, when I was becoming experienced
with 12-step programs.

By the time someone is actually elected to the board, surely this
issue has been considered by those electing them! It's a bit late to
deal with it at the first Board meeting....

Technically, the Board of AAWS, Inc., is self-elected; it simply has
a tradition of respecting the election *advice* of the World Service
Conference, which covers the two-thirds of trustees who are "alcoholics."

>Does AA have a similar practice when welcoming new members onto the
>board of trustees? If so, does anyone know the history of it or what
>wording has been used? I tried to search our archives, but no luck yet.

I'm quite sure there isn't such. It's actually weird. I've
participated on a number of nonprofit boards, and I've never seen a
"swearing in."

What Wilson did was to create a hybrid "organization." It's a highly
useful model that can be imitated for many different kinds of social
problems. He set up one organization, I call it a "free association,"
and it is only *advisory* in nature. It controls nothing except its
own meetings, which are only controlled individually by those who
participate in them, not organizationally, top-down. "AA as such
ought never be organized."

The "free association" isn't organized in the traditional way. It is
organized spontaneously, through consensus, without any coercion or
majoritarianism.

However, the "service boards" that are created are *traditional
boards.* They are designed to be "responsible to those they serve."
These boards include the AAWS Board, that handles legal necessities
like protecting the AA name, and the integrity of publications. The
AAWS board operates more openly than many traditional nonprofit
boards, but it does so by tradition, not by legal compulsion. The
seeking of broad consensus is, again, a tradition, not a Rule. The
Board has the authority to make any decision within its jurisdiction,
as it sees fit, by simple majority vote, I'm sure.

Again, the traditions restrain AAWS, Inc. It cannot -- by tradition
-- accumulate an endowment, thereby becoming independent of
continuing support from the real AA, the "free association." It
cannot seek independent funding from "charitable organizations,"
becoming like so many nonprofits, dependent on how charitable donors
view it and its work -- and with the Staff driving the bus,
generally, since their jobs depend on such continued funding. Bill
*did* seek some level of funding from "outside," but it's not
completely clear how necessary that was, and, in the end, that
funding simply facilitated the work of a few persons, such as Bill
himself, and only a little.

It is possible that, in the long run, AA will be longer remembered
for how it was structured than for its work with alcoholics. This
could benefit *everyone*, as it is imitated.

_______________________________________________

I found, after writing the above, a copy of the AA Service Manual, which covers, in detail, GSO Board election.

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/en_bm-31.pdf

The details differ from what I wrote from general understanding and memory, but the substance remains. The actual election to the board is by decision of the board itself. The Service Manual does not necessarily distinguish carefully between what is routinely done, following tradition and established procedures, and what a Board majority has the legal authority to do. In practice, the GSO Board is very unlikely to disregard tradition, unless clear cause appears.

Bill wrote extensively on this, a voluntary cooperation with traditions and general consensus.
| 9189|5134|2013-04-16 13:03:15|bILbOY|Re: Dr Silkworths signature missing from the 1st edition BB|
It would not make sense to argue that Dr. Silkworth's signature did not appear at the end of his letters when the Big Book was originally published, because he did not want people to know that he worked with alcoholics, or because he did not wish to be publicly identified as holding the theories about alcoholism which he expressed in those two letters.

The following excellent and very detailed article about the development of his ideas about the treatment of alcoholism, shows that Silky published his allergy theory in 1937, 2 yrs before the publication of the Big Book. And, that he openly endorsed the spiritual solution, ever since Bill's white flash in 1935 (and possibly long before).

http://www.dubgrp.com/content/william-d-silkworth-md-and-origin-and-development-alcoholics-anonymous-aa

<< The April 1951 Grapevine article notes, "He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism." Historians point out that he might have been laughed out of the American Medical Association for holding such a view.

Obviously, that did not happen:
http://www.melloron.com/?page_id=6219

Do you know what the real reason was for leaving his signature off the 1st edition? Or, do you know where I might look for the answer? Maybe it was because everyone else in the book was anonymous. From all accounts, he seemed proud to be associated with the movement, and was a believing Christian himself.

Thank you!
William R.

_____________________________________________________

Stephen Gentile wrote:

I have been a long time reader on this message board but do not remember this topic.

Why was Dr Silkworth's signature ommited from the first edition BB?

When did the signature first appear in the BB?

I have a 1st ed. 11th printing and it is not in it. I have 2nd ed. (1st, 2nd and 3rd printings) and it is in all of them.

I was told by someone once that it was left out to protect Silky from others in his field until alcoholism was seen as a disease. Was his signature finally included when the AMA finally officially recognized alcoholism as a disease?

The problem here, for me, is that alcoholism had in fact been characterized by some others in the medical profession in the late 1700's as a disease or at least an addiction.

Any positive proof would be appreciated. I am not interested in opinions as I have previously heard too many of those.

Kind Regards, Steve G.
New Jersey
| 9190|9190|2013-04-20 09:08:17|harry_the_hat@ymail.com|AA outside the US|
Is there a list anywhere showing which countries apart from the US joined AA and when?
| 9191|9191|2013-04-20 09:21:09|rsmith77379|Liquor Trade Association|
The following message was posted a couple of years ago and received no answer. Does anyone know any of the history behind the liquor trade associaton story fround in the 12 x 12? The subject came up in our Traditions Study last week.

Thanx Dick - Houston

______________________________________________

Posted By: mlb9292, Fri Jan 28, 2011


Howdy from Tulsa .... Who was the AA asked to work for a liquor trade
association mentioned in the 12 X 12 on pages 157-159 ... And which association
was asking ??

Thanks for your great group...Old Ben, Tulsa OK

______________________________________________

(12 + 12 pages 157-159)
These adventures implanted a deep-rooted conviction that in no circumstances could we endorse any related enterprise, no matter how good. We of Alcoholics Anonymous could not be all things to all men, nor should we try.

Years ago this principle of "no endorsement" was put to a vital test. Some of the great distilling companies proposed to go into the field of alcohol education. It would be a good thing, they believed, for the liquor trade to show a sense of public responsibility. They wanted to say that liquor should be enjoyed, not misused; hard drinkers ought to slow down, and problem drinkers - alcoholics - should not drink at all.

In one of their trade associations, the question arose of just how this campaign should be handled. Of course, they would use the resources of radio, press, and films to make their point. But what kind of person should head the job? They immediately thought of Alcoholics Anonymous. If they could find a good public relations man in our ranks, why wouldn't he be ideal? He'd certainly know the problem. His connection with A.A. would be valuable, because the Fellowship stood high in public favor and hadn't an enemy in the world.

Soon they'd spotted their man, an A.A. with the necessary experience. Straightway he appeared at New York's A.A. headquarters, asking, "Is there anything in our tradition that suggests I shouldn't take a job like this one? The kind of education seems good to me, and is not too controversial. Do you headquarters folks see any bugs in it?"

At first glance, it did look like a good thing. Then doubt crept in. The association wanted to use our member's full name in all its advertising; he was to be described both as its director of publicity and as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course, there couldn't be the slightest objection if such an association hired an A.A. member solely because of his public relations ability and his knowledge of alcoholism. But that wasn't the whole story, for in this case not only was an A.A. member to break his anonymity at a public level, he was to link the name Alcoholics Anonymous to this particular educational project in the minds of millions. It would be bound to appear that A.A. was now backing education-liquor trade association style.

The minute we saw this compromising fact for what it was, we asked the prospective publicity director how he felt about it. "Great guns!" he said. "Of course I can't take the job. The ink wouldn't be dry on the first ad before an awful shriek would go up from the dry camp. They'd be out with lanterns looking for an honest A.A. to plump for their brand of education. A.A. would land exactly in the middle of the wet-dry controversy. Half the people in this country would think we'd signed up with the drys, the other half would think we'd joined the wets. What a mess!"

"Nevertheless," we pointed out, "you still have a legal right to take this job."

"I know that," he said. "But this is no time for legalities. Alcoholics Anonymous saved my life, and it comes first. I certainly won't be the guy to land A.A. in big-time trouble, and this would really do it!"

Concerning endorsements, our friend had said it all. We saw as never before that we could not lend the A.A. name to any cause other than our own.
| 9192|9190|2013-04-20 09:21:41|Shakey Mike|Re: AA outside the US|
Jim M at Silkworth.net has a spot on his website asking for histories from every country.
Going to NAAAW Springfield IL.
Hope to see you there,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
| 9193|9193|2013-04-24 12:57:22|Bob S|Author of forewords to 3rd and 4th edit. of the Big Book?|
Who wrote the foreword to the third edition of the Big Book? . . . The
fourth edition?

Thanks in advance,
Bob S.
<rstonebraker212@comcast.net> (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)
| 9194|9186|2013-04-27 09:22:56|bernadette macleod|Re: Paul O. pamphlet|
I have both of Dr. Paul O.'s books "There's a lot more to quitting drinking than quitting drinking" and "You Can't Make Me Angry". In the former, he writes about alcoholics and drugs.

The books were available on line.

YIS bernadette m.
11/20/90

- - - -

Dr. Paul O., "There's More to Quitting Drinking Than Quitting Drinking"

(pub. by Capizon Publishing, PO Box 3272, Torrance, CA 90510, orig. pub. by Sabrina Publishing)

http://www.capizon.com/more_to_quitting.html

http://www.amazon.com/Theres-More-Quitting-Drinking-Than/dp/0965967204/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Dr. Paul O., "You Can't Make Me Angry"

(pub. by Capizon Publishing, PO Box 3272, Torrance, CA 90510)

http://www.capizon.com/youcant.html

http://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Make-Me-Angry/dp/0965967212
| 9195|9186|2013-04-27 09:36:54|Jeffrey J|Re: Paul O. pamphlet|
The only AA pamphlet I can think of that has anything to do with the dangers of prescribing drugs/medications to Alcoholics is one which I think we all know about. That is the conference approved pamphlet entitled "The A.A. Member - Medications and Other Drugs."

The copy I have has a copyright date of 1984 inside the front cover and on the front of the pamphlet is says on the bottom: A Report From a Group of Physicians in A.A. Don't know if Dr.Paul O. had anything to do with this pamphlet.

- - - -

Dr. Paul O. wrote an article for the Grapevine on why doctors shouldn't prescribe pills for alcoholics, and because he had a dual problem was asked to write his story. It was originally published in the A.A. Grapevine with the title "Bronzed Moccasins" and had an illustration of a pair of bronze moccasins on it.

It was eventually renamed and became a famous story in the Big Book, as we all know:

"Acceptance Was the Answer,"
by Dr. Paul O., M.D., Laguna Niguel, California
(Originally entitled DOCTOR, ALCOHOLIC, ADDICT
in 3rd ed., renamed for the 4th edition)
See 3rd ed. p. 439; 4th ed. p. 407

Went to aagrapevine.org and went to their archives and entered Why doctors shouldn't prescribe pills for alcoholics. There I found three different articles but they may not be what you are looking for.

_________________________________________________

Original message #9186 -- Paul O. pamphlet -- Apr 15, 2013
From jdavidfarrell@yahoo.com (jdavidfarrell at yahoo.com)

Paul O. (Acceptance Was the Answer and Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict) wrote a pamphlet for AA warning of the dangers of prescribing drugs to alcoholics. I have not been able to locate the name of this pamphlet. If anyone knows where I might be able to obtain a copy of it, I would be most appreciative.
| 9196|8888|2013-04-27 09:39:19|Tom Hickcox|Is th safecracker a real person? Do we know his name?|
My daily readings include our "Daily Reflections" and I often read the
original piece from which the quote is taken. This morning's is from
the August 1961 Grapevine titled "This matter of honesty." Bill
apparently thought a lot of the article as it is quoted eight times in
"As Bill Sees It."

"One of my good friends used to be a safecracker. He told me this
revealing tale: Said he, "You know, Bill, I used to think I was a kind
of one-man revolution against society. All over the world I could see
the 'have-nots' taking it away from the 'haves'. This seemed very
reasonable."

There is a thread on a safecracker reference in our archives, but it is
about the one mentioned on p. 62 of the Big Book, not "my good friend" the safecracker.

Was this latter person a real person or someone Bill invented for the
sake of a story? If the former, do we have a name?

Tommy H in Danville
| 9197|9190|2013-04-27 10:07:22|Jim M|Re: AA outside the US - Silkworth.net - World Map|
Thank you Mike.

Mike is correct. I have been seeking A.A. Histories from around the World for about 4 or 5 years now - maybe longer. But folks don't seem to be interested in doing so. What a great thing it would be to get A.A. histories from around the world. I have though, seen a more increase of folks in A.A. wanting to know more about A.A. History!

Thanks again Mike.

Here is the Global map to list A.A. Histories from around the World. Though it is a beginning, it is a dream of mine to include much A.A. History from around the World and has the possibilities of being very important to those doing research.

http://www.silkworth.net/image_map/world.html

Just click on a Continent, Region etc... etc... and send your A.A. history (from wherever you are in the world) for inclusion on silkworth.net (The Global Map) and it will be added.


Yours in service,
Warmest regards,
Jim M.
| 9198|9124|2013-04-27 10:10:18|Arthur S|Clarence Snyder was paid for his Big Book story|
A late PS to the thread on Clarence Snyder and his "Home Brewmeister" story:

Clarence S was the only story contributor who was paid for his story.

Cheers
Arthur
| 9199|9191|2013-04-27 10:41:50|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Liquor Trade Association|
From: Ron Roizen <ronroizen@frontier.com>
(ronroizen at frontier.com)

Hi Dick,

The beverage industry was an important player in the early decades of the modern alcoholism movement. The distilling industry gave substantial support to the Research Council on Problems of Alcohol and someone associated with beer production handsomely funded Yale's alcohol enterprises. Even Marty Mann's NCA was involved in the competition for patronage support from the brewing industry. AA's resistance to this kind of support makes it, in effect, a bit of an anomaly in this period. I've written about the beverage industry tie to the alcoholism movement in a number of pieces. It's a complicated story and lacked, at the time, some of the embarrassment and sensationalism that such support would take on in the 1980s, 1990s, and since. It may be recalled that NCA purged its board of industry members by the time of its name change to "NCADD" in 1990. Post-Repeal groups interested in launching and developing a new, non-temperance approach to the nation's alcohol problems went to considerable lengths to differentiate their aims from the old dry camp and its aims. This desire to not appear dry, or too dry, played a subtle role in justifying or rationalizing the acceptance of beverage industry support. There were other factors as well. For more on this, readers interested in this issue may way to take a look at this blog post at Points, where I summarized some of the industry support story with respect to the Research Council.

Ron


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POINTS: THE BLOG OF THE ALCOHOL
AND DRUGS HISTORY SOCIETY

Who Bought Whom? Revisiting "Bowman's Compromise"

posted on June 10, 2011 by ronroizen9

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/who-bought-whom-revisiting-%E2%80%9Cbowman%E2%80%99s-compromise%E2%80%9D/

As I reported in my 1991 dissertation,(1) the fledgling Research Council on Problems of Alcohol voted to narrow its future scientific attentions to studies of alcoholism only in the autumn of 1939. Future Council research on other alcohol-related topics, including possible new studies of alcohol's effects on the human organism or society, would henceforth be substantially de-emphasized or postponed.(2) Karl M. Bowman, chairman of the Council's Executive Committee, suggested this shift of research focus in a September 7, 1939 letter to the Council's Scientific Committee. Members were also sent a two-page report vigorously advocating the newly proposed policy, prepared by a Special Committee on Financial Policy.

I found these two documents � Bowman's letter and the financial committee's two-page report -- in boxes of Ray Lyman Wilbur's archived files on the Research Council of Problems of Alcohol at Stanford University's Lane Medical Library in (if memory serves) October, 1990, as I was researching my dissertation. It was a very lucky find. My dissertation's burning question was: How had the nation's new focus on the problem of alcoholism (and the subsequent development of the modern alcoholism movement) emerged from the ashes of national prohibition in the early post-Repeal period? Both Mark Keller's and Bruce Holley Johnson's previous accounts of this early period had highlighted the important role of the Research Council on Problems of Alcohol.(3) Yet neither author had addressed the question of why the Council's large and prestigious body of American scientists took so keen an interest in alcoholism. I was rummaging through Ray Lyman Wilbur's old Council files trying to shed light on the matter.

And then -- as I thumbed through stacks of Wilbur's old correspondence -- Bowman's letter and the financial committee's report suddenly appeared before my eyes. With respect to my dissertation research project, these documents were truly a godsend. Here, out of the blue, was not only solid documentary evidence that the Council made a deliberate decision to embrace alcoholism as its top research priority in the autumn of 1939 but here also was an adumbration of the reasons the Council leadership offered to the membership for the change, and a discussion of the pros and cons of the move as Council leadership envisioned them at the time. Though it happened twenty years ago, I still can recall the surprise, the excitement, and even the relief I felt at unearthing these documents. It felt as though I'd found the magic key to unlocking the Council's turn toward alcoholism. In order to lend the find a little more gravity I gave the Council's decision a name, "Bowman's Compromise."(4)

What story did these two documents tell? There is no question that the Council's change of policy was motivated by financial considerations. The cash-strapped Council was searching for a legitimate way to accept offers of support from the beverage industry. Bowman's letter tied the issue of accepting industry support to questions of bias, real and perceived, in relation to the Council's future research projects and findings. Bowman's letter elaborated this bias problem by means of an example � namely, research on liver cirrhosis. The Council's research on alcohol's relation to liver cirrhosis, he argued, might find that "cirrhosis was not a primary effect of the intake of alcohol." "What credence would be given to this finding�," Bowman continued, "if the rumor were circulated that the investigation was conducted in the interests of the liquor business?"

Research devoted to the subject of alcoholism, on the other hand, seemed not to raise this vexing concern. Actual or suspected scientific bias did not so easily attach itself to one or another research finding about the causes or treatment of alcoholism. Alcoholism-focused research addressed the psychological and physiological defects of defective drinkers. In due course, alcoholism movement protagonists would become fond of saying that alcohol was no more responsible for alcoholism than was sugar for diabetes. "If there is any likelihood at all," the financial committee's two-page report suggested,

=====================================================
that the results of studies in the field of alcoholism will be favorable to any special interest, it will probably be, in the beginning at least, the dry side. In later years such progress as may be made in the reduction of alcoholism might possibly help the liquor industry, as well as promote the public health.
=====================================================

In the moral lenses of most of the Council's scientist members in the autumn of 1939 the argument that confining their group's research to the subject of alcoholism offered a legitimate basis for abandoning the Council's past reluctance to accept support from the beverage industry. Research focused on alcoholism, no matter what results their research generated, did not harbor the same potent implication of potential bias as research on alcohol's effects on human beings or society. The door to industry support, as the Council's scientists saw it, inched open.

From time to time in recent years I've come across one or another author who asserts, suggests, or mildly alludes to the Council's change of research direction in 1939 as an instance of beverage industry cooptation or buying-off of the Council's scientists. In redirecting the Council's research toward alcoholism, and away from alcohol, this argument goes, the industry sought to locate blame for problems associated with alcohol "in the man" and not "in the bottle."

The boldest and most elaborated expression of this contention was put forth in Martin Nicolaus's recent book, Empowering Your Sober Self, published in 2009.(5) Nicolaus is the founder and CEO of LifeRing Secular Recovery, an alternative self- and mutual-help approach to overcoming alcoholism and drug addiction. He contends, in part, that the Research Council on Problems of Alcohol in 1939 accepted a beverage industry grant and that "[a] condition of the grant was that�[the Council's]�research in the next period would switch from alcohol to 'the disease of alcoholism (inebriety) and the alcoholic psychoses (alcoholic insanity)'" (emphasis added).(6) Nicolaus cited my dissertation in relation to the quotation at the end of his assertion. Yet my dissertation may also be read by some readers as authority for his assertion that the Council's switch to an alcoholism focus was a quid pro quo exacted by the industry as a condition of their would-be grant. It bears noting, however, that my dissertation research uncovered no evidence that the industry initiated or imposed the alcoholism focus on the Council, whether as a condition for an initial grant or otherwise. Everything in the documentation I unearthed pointed to the Council members themselves�and particularly Bowman�as the crafters and initiators of the policy change.

There are good reasons to doubt Nicolaus's cooptation conjecture. First, there were no arguments or assertions in Bowman's letter or the financial committee's report touching on the new alcoholism focus's problem-in-the-man-and-not-in-the-bottle formulation and implication. Neither was an important corollary of this formulation mentioned�namely, the formulation's long-term utility or value to the beverage industry in promoting the domestication of normative or non-alcoholic drinking in the post-Repeal era. Neither were there assertions conveying any contact with industry spokesmen or with industry wishes�that is, beyond the implied level of contact necessary to communicate the industry's willingness to contribute funds to the Council.(7) If the industry lay behind Bowman's Compromise, then Bowman and the financial committee would have had to deliberately deceive the Council's scientific membership and other interested parties with the arguments offered in Bowman's letter and the financial committee's report.

Bowman's letter also conveyed that a number of key players had already approved the policy change � including F.R. Moulton, permanent secretary of the American Association for the Advancement of Science; James R. Angell, ex-president of Yale; and the executive officers of all three of the foundations that had already made grant awards to the Council. It follows that the web of deception Council leadership would have had to spin might have had to encompass persons and institutions Bowman and the financial committee would have been ill-advised and ill-disposed to mislead. Such deception is not outside the realm of possibility, of course, but it is improbable in my view.

Furthermore, the reasons offered for the shift of focus in Bowman's letter and the report were framed entirely from the viewpoint of the Council and made no reference to any other institutions' interests. The reasons offered, moreover, were adequate in themselves to account for the Council's decision. Bowman's letter argued that there were few potential funding sources in the post-Repeal context that had not taken sides in the great struggle over Repeal. Nearly everybody in the Council's potential-sources-of-funding hinterland, in other words, was already biased or prejudiced in one way or the other regarding alcohol-related issues. "Foundations presumably are not biased;" Bowman conceded,

=====================================================
they are our best source of aid. Scientists may not be biased; but they have no money. When we go to other individuals, there appear to be no neutrals. Every man appears to be either "dry" or "wet" to a greater or less degree. A sensible and sound view, it is suggested, would provide for the acceptance of funds, for our work on alcoholism, from individuals and organizations representing various and different points of view.
=====================================================

In short, the Council's funding hinterland was crowded with Hatfields and McCoys, and few neutral parties. A viable organization that depended on patronage support was going to have to figure out a way to accept funding from both camps.

The financial committee's report cautioned against allowing dry sources of funding to become the Council's predominant source of support. "Last autumn," the report warned,

=====================================================
representatives of the liquor press showed persistent curiosity as to the source of the Council's funds. The Council cannot indefinitely withhold a statement of contributions. If such a statement were released today, it would necessarily indicate that the Council has accepted dry money, but no money from those connected with the liquor industry.
=====================================================

This argument turned the Council's past unwillingness to accept industry funding into a bias-associated liability. (This argument contrasts interestingly and sharply, of course, with today's negative valance on industry funding among many government supported members of the alcohol science collegium.)(8)

Nicolaus's contention may also have attributed more sociological savvy, prescience, and consensus to distilling industry leadership than was warranted in 1939 in relation to the problem-in-the-man-and-not-in-the-bottle formulation. Jay L. Rubin delved into the question of the distilling industry's early attitude toward "the alcoholism treatment movement" in his 1979 article.(9) According to Rubin's account, the industry moved from an early position of hostility to the alcoholism movement ("�based in part on the fear that alcoholism treatment specialists were 'closet drys'�") to, in time, a more favorable disposition. Industry leadership, wrote Rubin, "commissioned two private studies of the alcoholism treatment movement."(10) Both studies ultimately encouraged distillers to embrace the new movement, despite some reservations.(11) Both studies were completed in 1947 � some eight years after Bowman's Compromise in 1939.

Let me summarize. What I am arguing is: (1) I'm aware of no evidence that industry representatives took the lead in suggesting or requiring that Council scientists devote their attentions to alcoholism as a condition of industry funding in the Council's fateful 1939 decision. (2) The documentary evidence I found regarding the Council's reasons for making the shift toward alcoholism appears to be adequate to explain their policy change. (3) The year 1939 may be too early for industry leaders to have come to a collective appreciation of the advantages of the problem-in-the-man-and-not-the-bottle formulation's implications in an alcoholism-only research focus.(12) (4) Finally, I suggest that the assertion that industry co-opted the fledgling alcohol science group into the alcoholism research focus, if it is to be given any credibility, must be equipped with adequate supporting sources and documentation.

There is another level at which I take exception to the cooptation conjecture. Making that conjecture in effect tends to deprive the actors on the ground in 1939 of their historical situation, their moral framing of the issues they faced, and their voices. Absent tangible historical evidence, asserting the cooptation conjecture is arguably an exercise in presentism � i.e., the projection of aspects of today's lively controversy over industry funding of alcohol research back across seven decades and into the 1939 alcohol research scene. There can be little argument that there are marked differences in alcohol science's social environments in the two periods. The fledgling Council had to find a way to survive in a cultural context still chiefly defined by vying dry and wet camps. What made sense to Council scientists in 1939 should be understood in their own terms.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Notes:

(1) The American Discovery of Alcoholism, 1933-1939, Ph.D. dissertation, Sociology,University of California,Berkeley, 1991.

(2) There was a glaring exception to Bowman's proposed new policy already in progress � namely, the Council's Carnegie Corporation-funded, $25,000 grant to review the literature on "alcohol's effects on man." That project won final approval from Carnegie in May, 1939 and work continued on it unimpeded despite the Council's ratification of Bowman's Compromise � see The American Discovery of Alcoholism, ch. 8.

(3) Mark Keller penned a number of accounts of the emergence of a "new scientific approach" to alcohol-related questions in the 1930s and 1940s � see, e.g., his "The Origins of Modern Research and Responses Relevant to Problems of Alcohol: A Brief History of the First Center of Alcohol Studies," pp. 157-170 in Koslowski, L.T. et al. (eds.), Research Advances in Alcohol and Drug Problems, vol. 10, New York: Plenum, 1990 and Mark Keller's History of the Alcohol Problems Field," The Drinking and Drug Practices Surveyor 14:22-28, 1979; Bruce Holley Johnson, The Alcoholism Movement in America: A Study in Cultural Innovation, Ph.D. dissertation, Sociology,University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, 1973.

(4) See The American Discovery of Alcoholism, ch. 8.

(5) Martin Nicolaus, Empowering Your Sober Self: The LifeRing Approach to Addiction Recovery,San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, A Wiley Imprint, 2009 � see pp. 134-135 for Nicolaus's discussion of his cooptation contention.

(6) The quoted phrase in Nicolaus's assertion � i.e., 'the disease of alcoholism (inebriety) and the alcoholic psychoses (alcoholic insanity)' � derives from a third Council document titled simply, "Announcement," which was distributed by Bowman to the Council's full membership as an attachment to a letter dated September 7, 1939. Curiously, this third document presents the Council's shift of attention to alcoholism only as an already accomplished decision. Yet, the financial committee's report, which was distributed as an attachment to a letter from Bowman to the Council's Scientific Committee, also dated September 7, 1939, included a ratification plan for the decision. The new research direction, the financial committee's report held, would have to be approved by "[at] least 80 per cent of the 40 members of the Scientific Committee' and 80 percent or more of those present at the upcoming annual meeting of the Council as well as the three executive officers of the foundations that had already awarded grant funds to the Council. A letter to Wilbur from Winfred Overholser, newly elected chair of the Executive Committee, dated October 20, 1939, informed Wilbur that the new policy had been adopted by the Scientific Committee. Thirty-seven of the committee's 39 members had voted, 31 approving, 3 opposed, and 3 "in doubt." Overholser did not report on a vote of attendees at the Council's annual meeting, if any were taken.

(7) There is however an interesting ambiguity left hanging in the first paragraph of the financial committee's two-page report. That paragraph reads:

=====================================================
This report is based on various conferences held during the summer, in which committee members and certain competent advisors participated. The committee suggests that the Council, in determining its future policy, take into account the following aspects of the present situation:
=====================================================

The main body of the report commences after this paragraph. Who were the "certain competent advisors" the financial committee consulted during the summer? The Council retained the services of the public relations firm of Pierce and Hedrick (see The American Discovery of Alcoholism, ch. 7) in May of 1938. It seems likely the Council's financial committee might have consulted with this firm on the issue at hand in the summer of 1939 if the Council's working arrangement with Pierce and Hedrick was still in effect at that time. Bowman's letter makes mention of contacts and approval of the new research policy already obtained from F.R. Moulton, James R. Angell, James D. Thacher, and the heads of the three foundations that had previously awarded grant funds to the Council. The financial committee's two-page report also notes a contact with George Gallup, who apparently advised the committee that they were too preoccupied with potential criticism that might be visited on the Council if industry funding were accepted. Any or all of these contacts may have been those alluded to in the report's first paragraph. Industry contacts may also have been made, of course, although such a contact, if indeed such a contact happened, would not by itself indicate that a quid pro quo was transacted between the industry and the Council.

(8) On the current climate of opinion respecting industry funding of alcohol research, see Kaye M. Fillmore and Ron Roizen, "The new manichaeism in alcohol science, a commentary on McCreanor et al.'s "ICAP and the perils of partnership," Addiction 95:188-190, 2000.

(9) Jay L. Rubin, "Shifting perspectives on the alcoholism treatment movement, 1940-1955," Journal of Studies on Alcohol 40:376-386, 1979.

(10) The two studies are identified in Rubin's article as follows: (a) R.A. Durrell, A Survey of the Yale Plan of Alcohol Studies together with recommendations for the adoption of a public relations plan concerning alcoholism, 1947; located in the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States (DISCUS) library; and (b) William Cherin Associates, Confidential report on [the] [sic] problem drinking, also located in the DISCUS library.

(11) Rubin reported concerning the Willaim Cherin Associates' report (Rubin, p. 384):

=====================================================
Their report warned that scientist-supported groups were rapidly gaining influence. "[They] will be listened to�whether the industry, or the Drys like it, support their efforts, work with them, or not." Industry leaders were cautioned against trying to dominate the movement as "this will ruin their effectiveness." Short of taking over the groups, distillers were urged to seek certain changes, such as the elimination of the words "alcoholic" and "alcoholism." Why point to the bottle when men are the source of the problem, the report argued? Cherin offered the terms "problem drinker" and "chronic drinker" as substitutes.
=====================================================

(12) This awareness was in evidence by 1947. John C. Burnham (Bad Habits: Drinking, Smoking, Taking Drugs, Gambling, Sexual Misbehavior, and Swearing in American History, New York and London: New York University Press, 1993, p. 83) quotes Licensed Beverage Industries, Inc. president Thomas F. McCarthy in 1947 as follows:

=====================================================
the root of the 'problem drinker's disease' lies in the man and not in the bottle. The problem drinker is a medical problem�and he won't be cured until the scientists and doctors figure out a way (emphasis in original).
=====================================================

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


WRITTEN IN RESPONSE TO DICK'S MESSAGE
TO THE AA HISTORY LOVERS:

From: rsmith77379
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013
Subject: Liquor Trade Association

The following message was posted a couple of years ago and received no answer. Does anyone know any of the history behind the liquor trade associaton story found in the 12 x 12? The subject came up in our Traditions Study last week.

Thanx Dick - Houston

______________________________________________

Posted By: mlb9292, Fri Jan 28, 2011

Howdy from Tulsa .... Who was the AA asked to work for a liquor trade
association mentioned in the 12 X 12 on pages 157-159 ... And which association was asking ??

Thanks for your great group...Old Ben, Tulsa OK

______________________________________________

(12 + 12 pages 157-159)
These adventures implanted a deep-rooted conviction that in no circumstances could we endorse any related enterprise, no matter how good. We of Alcoholics Anonymous could not be all things to all men, nor should we try.


Years ago this principle of "no endorsement" was put to a vital test. Some of the great distilling companies proposed to go into the field of alcohol education. It would be a good thing, they believed, for the liquor trade to show a sense of public responsibility. They wanted to say that liquor should be enjoyed, not misused; hard drinkers ought to slow down, and problem drinkers - alcoholics - should not drink at all.

In one of their trade associations, the question arose of just how this campaign should be handled. Of course, they would use the resources of radio, press, and films to make their point. But what kind of person should head the job? They immediately thought of Alcoholics Anonymous. If they could find a good public relations man in our ranks, why wouldn't he be ideal? He'd certainly know the problem. His connection with A.A. would be valuable, because the Fellowship stood high in public favor and hadn't an enemy in the world.

Soon they'd spotted their man, an A.A. with the necessary experience. Straightway he appeared at New York's A.A. headquarters, asking, "Is there anything in our tradition that suggests I shouldn't take a job like this one? The kind of education seems good to me, and is not too controversial. Do you headquarters folks see any bugs in it?"

At first glance, it did look like a good thing. Then doubt crept in. The association wanted to use our member's full name in all its advertising; he was to be described both as its director of publicity and as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course, there couldn't be the slightest objection if such an association hired an A.A. member solely because of his public relations ability and his knowledge of alcoholism. But that wasn't the whole story, for in this case not only was an A.A. member to break his anonymity at a public level, he was to link the name Alcoholics Anonymous to this particular educational project in the minds of millions. It would be bound to appear that A.A. was now backing education-liquor trade association style.

The minute we saw this compromising fact for what it was, we asked the prospective publicity director how he felt about it. "Great guns!" he said. "Of course I can't take the job. The ink wouldn't be dry on the first ad before an awful shriek would go up from the dry camp. They'd be out with lanterns looking for an honest A.A. to plump for their brand of education. A.A. would land exactly in the middle of the wet-dry controversy. Half the people in this country would think we'd signed up with the drys, the other half would think we'd joined the wets. What a mess!"

"Nevertheless," we pointed out, "you still have a legal right to take this job."

"I know that," he said. "But this is no time for legalities. Alcoholics Anonymous saved my life, and it comes first. I certainly won't be the guy to land A.A. in big-time trouble, and this would really do it!"

Concerning endorsements, our friend had said it all. We saw as never before that we could not lend the A.A. name to any cause other than our own.
| 9200|9190|2013-04-28 10:10:40|pamelafro88|Re: AA outside the US - Silkworth.net - World Map|
From pamelafro88 and Corey Franks

- - - -

From: <pamelafro@bigfoot.com> (pamelafro at bigfoot.com)

Australia's GS Conference is about to publish AA's history in Australia history. I believe we were the first country outside North America to introduce AA.

- - - -

From: Corey Franks <erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com)

That was the Purpose of Archives International. Remember? But NO they fought us!!

__________________________________________

Jim M wrote:
>
> I have been seeking A.A. Histories from around the World for about 4 or 5 years now - maybe longer.
>  
> Here is the Global map to list A.A. Histories from around the World.
>  
> http://www.silkworth.net/image_map/world.html
>
> Just click on a Continent, Region etc... etc... and send your A.A. history (from wherever you are in the world) for inclusion on silkworth.net (The Global Map) and it will be added.
>
>  
> Yours in service,
> Warmest regards,
> Jim M.
| 9201|9201|2013-04-29 08:25:01|fivequestionsguy|Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
Is there a source for his receiving remuneration?

How much was he paid?

Thanks,

Peter
| 9202|9190|2013-04-29 08:40:20|Tom Hickcox|Re: AA outside the US - Silkworth.net - World Map|
Just a comment on the subject-line: There has never been a distinction
between A.A. in Canada and A.A. in the United States.

I'm not sure what the status of Newfoundland in A.A. was prior to 1949.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9203|9190|2013-04-29 08:42:13|Arthur S|Re: AA outside the US - Silkworth.net - World Map|
There is a substantial amount of history on "AA outside the US" in the
unpublished manuscript by Bob P of the history of AA up to 1985.

A digital version is on Silkworth.net among other places.

Cheers

Arthur
| 9204|9204|2013-04-29 10:30:37|Glenn Chesnut|Craving vs. desire in the book Changed by Grace|
From: Jonas E.

I'm a recovered Swedish alcoholic living in Mallorca (Spain). I just finished Victor C. Kitchen's book "I Was a Pagan" (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1934) and I'm now reading Glenn F. Chesnut's book "Changed by Grace".

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

I like Chesnut's book and I find it very informative to better understand the AA program. I just have one comment. In Chapter 5 he writes: "... their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more."

The right word should be desire -- not crave. Please read "The Doctor's Opinion" in the Big Book for a full explanation. An alcoholic can only crave alcohol after he puts liquor into his body.

Love and Service,

Jonas

Alcoholics Anonymous Mallorca
http://www.aamallorca.org/


=========================================
Glenn F. Chesnut, Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A. (2006), pp. 90-91.

SEE FOURTH PARAGRAPH BELOW, LINES 2-3 -- "When alcoholics are scolded for their drinking ... their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more."

The apostle Paul ... made an important new discovery about the nature of divine grace , which is found in Romans 7-8, and this in turn became the heart of the twelve step program. He found that the power of grace had an almost magical ability to produce a soul change (a deep psychic change ) and heal the kind of self-destructive behaviors which formed the most intractable of all human woes. He realized that the problems which most deeply torment those who want to lead good lives, are the obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors which we know are wrong and destructive, but which we cannot stop ourselves from doing by our own unaided will power (Romans 7:15-24).

"I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law [of God] is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within .... I can will what is right, but I cannot do it .... For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my arms and legs another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my arms and legs. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"

Alcoholics give us an excellent example of the kind of behavior Paul was describing. An alcoholic eventually arrives at a point like the one Bill Wilson finally reached at the end of his drinking career, where he knew in his inmost self that his out-of-control drinking was an offense against all that was holy and good. But in spite of what the sane and moral part of his mind was trying to command his body to do, every day it was as though his legs would start walking automatically to the liquor store, and the next thing he knew, his arms, as though they had a mind of their own, were lifting the bottle to his lips.

Preaching the law , Paul says, does no good for someone caught in that situation. Scolding, punishment, and threats of hellfire not only will not work, but make the behavior even worse. When alcoholics are scolded for their drinking, for example, their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more. The more compulsive overeaters cringe when other people make fun of them and call them "fatty" and other names like that, and again, the more people scold them and make fun of them, the more they crave doughnuts or potato chips or whatever other comfort food they go to in order to relieve stress. If we have tempers which get us in trouble, where we are continually blowing up at our bosses or our spouses or our children, the attempt to control our anger by sheer will-power alone will not work at all (or it will simply delay our explosions of anger and make them even worse, or it will plunge us into depression instead).
=========================================

BIG BOOK, THE DOCTOR'S OPINION

(pp. xxv-xxvi) Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures can be of maximum benefit.

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker.

(pp. xxvi-xxvii) They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks -- drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again.

(p. xxvii) On the other hand ... once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed ... suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.

(pp. xxvii-xxviii) I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.

There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather then continue to fight.

(p. xxviii) All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.
| 9205|7183|2013-05-02 15:06:56|shakey1aa|Re: Early AA rules|
In a letter dated May 18, 1942 to Mgt Burger, from the Philadelphia Mother Group Operating Committee for May, 1942, ("from the first we felt that there was inherent danger in having a head man to govern our organization") in reply to her request in a recent mimeograph sent to her the following plan and procedure.

"All requests for financial assistance are referred to the operating committee, who, if the cause is worthy, advance credit in the clubhouse restaurant for meals and cash to the extent of a place to sleep in one of the local missions. We then place the man in some employment such as Hospital Orderly or the like. On his first payday he is expected to repay us for what we have spent. If on this pay day he is still sober, our small investment is returned and we have a man well advanced in the program. If he is a "phony" or has not the desire to stop drinking, or is not an alcoholic, he is gone and we have lost very little and none of the individual members have lost. This plan may seem very cold and ungenerous on first reading, but bear in mind the following:

1.If the man wants to stop drinking he is willing to do anything to achieve that goal and the man that is too good for that plan does not want real help -- merely financial.

2. The man who wants to regain his place in society wants to do it himself under his own power, without too many obligations to others.

3. He is probably tremendously in debt already and we do not want to put him in any more than is really necessary.

4. He is taking a job that is not going to be too great a strain on him mentally or nervously but will still keep him occupied enough to keep his mind away from himself and make him tired enough to sleep at night and allow himself to fall into a set of decent habits and regular routine.

5. He will not have enough money in his pockets to get drunk on.

6. He is prevented from pan-handling members. This is not necessarily to protect the members, but to protect the man. We find that it is too easy to spoil a good prospect with kindness.

We have used this method in Philadelphia for two years with the most satisfactory results. We have applied it regardless of former social standing or financial rating. We have even used it on some former members of other groups who have come to us. The fellows who have come up this way are themselves very proud of it and the Group is most proud of them and they are held in very high esteem.

The financial report on these loans is most interesting. In the last year we loaned $588.98 and of that sum only $146.41 remains unpaid to date. Contrast this with your own "loans" to drunks.

While the policy is not ironclad (we have had two exceptions) we do not encourage ministers and priests to address our gatherings. We are afraid that it might lead new people to thinking we are interested in some particular type of worship. On the other hand, our members have addressed bible classes and other church bodies and will carry our message to any interested associations.

Source material for a handbook should include a few experiments that went sour so that they will not be repeated in the new Fellowships that are forming. One such comes to mind. We held a theory that men having difficulty with the A.A. Program might fare better if we imposed some responsibility upon them. So the January 1941 Operating Committee was composed entirely of such fellows. Charged with the duty of running our Group. One member of this Committee "slipped" two days after it assumed office. Before the end of the month every last one of them had gone off the deep end, finally the chairman. We see dangers also in having men too recently out of drink addressing our meetings. From the showmanship standpoint they are usually effective, but it frequently does something to their emotional organization which is not helpful. Getting too holy too fast has also been observed as a possible warning sign. The gutter ... To sainthood ... And back to the gutter is fast traveling but hardly the trip we planned for our fellow alcoholic."

"Please tell Bill Wilson for our membership that the Philly boys and girls look forward to publication of the handbook. It will furnish us with some of the answers that heretofore we had to find by a costlier method of trial and error."

Regards to Bill and Lois and to all of you of the Foundation,from our gang in Philadelphia."

Cordially,
The Philadelphia A.A. Fellowship
By its May Operating Committee

Respectfully submitted,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
| 9206|9206|2013-05-02 15:25:02|Glenn Chesnut|Charles Jackson and the Lost Weekend|
CHARLES JACKSON (1903-1968) -- AUTHOR OF "THE LOST WEEKEND" (1944)

From: Ron Roizen <ronroizen@frontier.com> (ronroizen at frontier.com)

The Lost Novelist
'Farther and Wilder,' Blake Bailey's Bio of Charles Jackson
By DONNA RIFKIND
New York Times Sunday Book Review
Published: April 19, 2013

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/books/review/farther-and-wilder-blake-baileys-bio-of-charles-jackson.html?emc=eta1&_r=0

Charles Jackson, one of the most successful failures in American letters, wished as fiercely as any writer for literary immortality. This he was denied, though for a brief moment in the mid-1940s it seemed all but certain. His first novel, "The Lost Weekend," sold nearly half a million copies within five years of its publication, was translated into 14 languages, inspired a hit film that swept the 1945 Academy Awards, and helped cause a major shift in public perceptions about alcoholism. After this taste of fame, Jackson's career tumbled into a long decline, made more agonizing by periodic relapses of hope. Even before he died, in 1968, his reputation had blurred into obscurity. Today, except for vague memories of his connection to the classic movie, it has all but disappeared.

What kept Jackson from the glory he craved? From the deck of authors' bedevilments he drew some formidable cards, including tuberculosis, painfully suppressed homosexuality, drug addiction and the alcoholism that became his brand-name affliction. All his business decisions, and many of his artistic ones, were a series of increasingly grim miscalculations. His character was marked by a rash improvidence that led his family, and later his biographer, to guess that he might have been bipolar.

Yet all of these factors fueled his writing as much as they impeded it. Moreover, in counterbalance to his private torments, Jackson was publicly the kindest and most congenial of men. An anxious-to-please husband and father as well as an immensely popular guy, he charmed all sorts of people, from the adoring audiences he addressed at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings around the country to the likes of Judy Garland, Charlie Chaplin, his idol Thomas Mann and a smattering of Partisan Review intellectuals.

It was Partisan Review, no less, that published two of his early short stories in 1939, a fiction debut praised by Dwight Macdonald as perhaps the magazine's most acclaimed since that of Delmore Schwartz. Then came his fine novel "The Lost Weekend," the autobiographical tale of a five-day drinking binge that would turn out to be the only book Jackson wrote while sober. (Vintage has reissued "The Lost Weekend" and a collection of Jackson's stories, "The Sunnier Side," in paperback and Kindle editions.) More novels and stories followed, along with grandiose plans for a multipart epic whose first volume was to be called "Farther and Wilder," but none of these later efforts fulfilled his initial promise. For all his ambition he remained a one-book man, a literary almost-hero who bore too great a wound and too small a bow.

Blake Bailey has made a career of chronicling midcentury alcoholic authors -- Richard Yates, John Cheever and now Jackson in "Farther and Wilder" -- whose lives slowly degraded into near-total wretchedness. (His new subject is Philip Roth.) Bailey's books are scrupulous and compassionate, written with enough panache to fortify readers as they power through these cheerless denouements. But Yates and Cheever were forcefully imaginative storytellers whose biographical particulars, squalor and all, help to shine some light on their artistic virtuosity. With Jackson, Bailey must prove that the work of this less accomplished craftsman is worthy enough to deserve yet another slow trudge through a sad, sad life.


Jackson was born in the first light of the 20th century, in 1903, and grew up in the Finger Lakes township of Arcadia, N.Y. When he was 13, his sister and a younger brother were killed in an auto wreck. His father then abandoned the family, and Jackson's mother became, as he described her in an unpublished play, "a creature of sighs and bewilderment." Jackson would later blame his mother for both his alcoholism and his homosexuality. In turn, she was quick to criticize the stories he wrote about his hometown, complaining, "I don't see anything so wonderful about it, it all happened, all you had to do is write it down."

An uncharitable comment, but also true: Jackson's subjects rarely strayed far from his own observation and experience. He believed, as Mary McCarthy once wrote about a character based on him, that "if he could tell the whole truth about himself, he would tell the whole truth about any ordinary American." Thus in his fiction he returned often to his Arcadian childhood; to his high school job at the local newspaper; to his lone year at Syracuse University, which ended in humiliation when his crush on a fraternity brother was cruelly exposed. For material he also mined the couple of years he spent abroad in his 20s when, stricken with tuberculosis and besotted with "The Magic Mountain," he convalesced rather happily in an elegant Davos sanitarium, his cure financed by a rich New York patron.

Jackson's penchant for autobiography was what made "The Lost Weekend" such a desperately effective novel. When its protagonist, Don Birnam, says of his alcohol addiction that "his need to breathe was not more urgent," it's clear that this courageous self-scrutiny must come from personal experience. (After first denying it, Jackson later admitted that nearly everything in the book was true.) By looking inward, the novel reached outward toward a receptive national audience. It was so influential in helping to change the idea of drunkenness from a derisory moral failing to a disease that Walter Winchell hailed it, with more than passing accuracy, as "the 'Uncle Tom's Cabin'" of alcoholism.

If self-involvement was Jackson's boon in his early writing, it was his severest limitation as he tried to progress. He was simply no good at making things up, and thus could never surpass what he regarded as the apprentice work of "The Lost Weekend." Perhaps suspecting the limits of his talent, he relied more and more on barbiturates to prod his imagination. His later fiction devolved into a hall of mirrors, most of whose protagonists were sketchy reflections of himself. By the end of his life, lethally addicted to Seconal and once again abusing alcohol, his family life in shambles and his earnings mostly squandered, Jackson was reduced to typing and retyping the tentative beginnings of his never-to-appear magnum opus, "as if his main purpose," Bailey writes, "was to give his wife the impression (not for the first time) that he was working on something behind his closed door."

As a portrait of the artist as a ruined man, Bailey's account is a chilling addition to the museum of literary failure, to be mounted somewhere in the long hall between "The Crack-Up" and "The Shining." Yet after providing hundreds of pages of slow-motion collapse, Bailey tries hard to argue that Jackson has been unfairly consigned among the losers, describing his career as "a remarkable life's work, all in all, even if only one book can arguably be called great -- and not simply a great novel about addiction, but a great novel period."

While Bailey does a thorough job assessing the strengths of "The Lost Weekend," his claim for its greatness does not convince. It's a darn good novel, but Fitzgerald-great it's not, although Jackson had worshipfully hoped to make it so. In helping to change America's mind about alcoholism, the book achieved a significance that was as sociological as it was artistic; this may be a factor in explaining why the film version, reimagined in the penetrating cinematic vocabulary of Billy Wilder and Charles Brackett, remains engraved more indelibly in the public imagination. Bailey does not speculate much about this, nor does he muse more generally about the enemies of literary promise. He has oversold Jackson as a major writer, but he also presents him credibly, with diligence and sympathy, as a man infatuated with the romantic image of The Writer, "a role he loved to play," Bailey notes, "though the actual writing part was problematic."
| 9207|9204|2013-05-02 15:40:18|brian koch|Re: Craving vs. desire in the book Changed by Grace|
From Brian Koch, John Barton, and Sam Sommers

- - - -

From: brian koch <kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

crave (krv)
v. craved, craving, craves

v.tr.
1. To have an intense desire for. See Synonyms at desire.
2. To need urgently; require.
3. To beg earnestly for; implore. See Synonyms at beg.

v.intr.
To have an eager or intense desire.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009.

Important not to get caught up in semantics I believe. The above definition could apply to a mental craving as well as a physical one. Dr. Silkworth chose the word/words he did in writing his opinion, not to the exclusion of other terms he could have used, but just as the words he chose to use.

While it is "rule of thumb" to use craving in relation to the physical manifestation of the allergy, in AA's literature/analysis, it is only that. "Obsession" is generally used to describe the mental craving, but is not an exclusive term to describe such. I believe the two terms are used to help differentiate the two components of the disease.

The ideas behind the words are the truly important thing, at least in this alcoholic's opinion.

Blessings,

Brian

- - - -

From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

Charlie P (Joe and Charlie) always separated out the word craving as well to differentiate it from the obsessive thought. Charlie believed you could only "crave" alcohol after putting it in your body, no doubt his thinking closely followed Silkworth's pronouncement. Of course, putting aside the drink question, the words are interchangeable. Looking up "desire" in the dictionary will yield the word "crave" more than once.

Regards,

John B

- - - -

From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com> (scmws at yahoo.com)

It's true that Dr Silkworth suggests that the phenomenon of craving happens after an alcoholic commences drinking. But surely that's not the only time the wish, whim, or desire can be called a craving. If that were the case, we'll have to set Dr Bob straight when he relates in the last page of Doctor Bob's Nightmare:

"Unlike most of our crowd, I did not get over my craving for liquor much during the first two and one-half years of abstinence. It was almost always with me."

Thanks for everything.

Sam S

Elkhart Indiana

____________________________________________

Original message from: Jonas E.

I'm a recovered Swedish alcoholic living in Mallorca (Spain). I just finished Victor C. Kitchen's book "I Was a Pagan" (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1934) and I'm now reading Glenn F. Chesnut's book "Changed by Grace".

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

I like Chesnut's book and I find it very informative to better understand the AA program. I just have one comment. In Chapter 5 he writes: "... their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more."

The right word should be desire -- not crave. Please read "The Doctor's Opinion" in the Big Book for a full explanation. An alcoholic can only crave alcohol after he puts liquor into his body.

Love and Service,

Jonas

Alcoholics Anonymous Mallorca
http://www.aamallorca.org/


=========================================
Glenn F. Chesnut, Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A. (2006), pp. 90-91.

SEE FOURTH PARAGRAPH BELOW, LINES 2-3 -- "When alcoholics are scolded for their drinking ... their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more."

The apostle Paul ... made an important new discovery about the nature of divine grace , which is found in Romans 7-8, and this in turn became the heart of the twelve step program. He found that the power of grace had an almost magical ability to produce a soul change (a deep psychic change ) and heal the kind of self-destructive behaviors which formed the most intractable of all human woes. He realized that the problems which most deeply torment those who want to lead good lives, are the obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors which we know are wrong and destructive, but which we cannot stop ourselves from doing by our own unaided will power (Romans 7:15-24).

"I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law [of God] is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within .... I can will what is right, but I cannot do it .... For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my arms and legs another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my arms and legs. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"

Alcoholics give us an excellent example of the kind of behavior Paul was describing. An alcoholic eventually arrives at a point like the one Bill Wilson finally reached at the end of his drinking career, where he knew in his inmost self that his out-of-control drinking was an offense against all that was holy and good. But in spite of what the sane and moral part of his mind was trying to command his body to do, every day it was as though his legs would start walking automatically to the liquor store, and the next thing he knew, his arms, as though they had a mind of their own, were lifting the bottle to his lips.

Preaching the law , Paul says, does no good for someone caught in that situation. Scolding, punishment, and threats of hellfire not only will not work, but make the behavior even worse. When alcoholics are scolded for their drinking, for example, their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more. The more compulsive overeaters cringe when other people make fun of them and call them "fatty" and other names like that, and again, the more people scold them and make fun of them, the more they crave doughnuts or potato chips or whatever other comfort food they go to in order to relieve stress. If we have tempers which get us in trouble, where we are continually blowing up at our bosses or our spouses or our children, the attempt to control our anger by sheer will-power alone will not work at all (or it will simply delay our explosions of anger and make them even worse, or it will plunge us into depression instead).
=========================================

BIG BOOK, THE DOCTOR'S OPINION

(pp. xxv-xxvi) Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures can be of maximum benefit.

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker.

(pp. xxvi-xxvii) They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks -- drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again.

(p. xxvii) On the other hand ... once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed ... suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.

(pp. xxvii-xxviii) I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.

There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather then continue to fight.

(p. xxviii) All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.
| 9208|9201|2013-05-03 07:53:40|Arthur S|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
There are two references.

In March 1943, the Alcoholic Foundation published a report on fund raising and royalties to Bill W and Dr Bob (GSO Archives reference Bx 22, R 10, File 8.2, p 16). The section titled "HISTORY OF THE BOOK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS AND PRESENT DISTRIBUTION OF ITS INCOME" begins with the sentence "The book Alcoholics Anonymous, published in 1939, was made possible by older members of the Akron and New York groups. Akron and New York members contributed their stories, excepting one, by a Cleveland member."

On July 7, 1944, Leonard V Harrison wrote a rather sharp letter to Clarence S in response to a June 26, 1944 letter from Clarence criticizing: Dr Bob and Bill W for accepting royalties; the price of the Big Book; the Trustees keeping members "in the dark about financial affairs" and the proposed election of a Cleveland member to the Board of Trustees. Clarence claimed to acting in behalf of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's rather harsh reply, refuted the points raised by Clarence and a copy was sent to each member of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's reply noted to Clarence that "Akron and NY AAs contributed their stories (with the exception of one story from Cleveland, your own)."

Don't know the amount but it's an odd situation.

Cheers

Arthur

_______________________________________________

From: fivequestionsguy
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013
Subject: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

Is there a source for his receiving remuneration?

How much was he paid?

Thanks,

Peter
| 9209|9201|2013-05-03 13:50:57|James Bliss|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
I am a little confused about the conclusion that Clarence Snyder was paid (which is perhaps the reason for the '?' in the subject).

From my reading of the two references, the only thing which is being stated is that:

1) One story in the Big Book came from a member in Cleveland (Clarence Snyder's story)

2) The balance of the stories came from members in New York and Akron

From reviewing the listing of member stories in the first edition which are listed on Silkworth.net this is not completely accurate if that is the proper reading, unless it is related to where they attended meetings when they were writing the story as opposed to where their actually residences were. But I am having difficulty extending this discrepancy to the point of imputing that Clarence Snyder was paid for his story.

Perhaps I am missing some context in these comments though. I would love to see some ledger entries which would verify this, if it exists.

Thanks for your research Arthur,

Jim

_________________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur S <arthur.s@live.com>
Sent: Fri, 03 May 2013 09:43:53 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: RE: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

There are two references.

In March 1943, the Alcoholic Foundation published a report on fund raising and royalties to Bill W and Dr Bob (GSO Archives reference Bx 22, R 10, File 8.2, p 16). The section titled "HISTORY OF THE BOOK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS AND PRESENT DISTRIBUTION OF ITS INCOME" begins with the sentence "The book Alcoholics Anonymous, published in 1939, was made possible by older members of the Akron and New York groups. Akron and New York members contributed their stories, excepting one, by a Cleveland member."

On July 7, 1944, Leonard V Harrison wrote a rather sharp letter to Clarence S in response to a June 26, 1944 letter from Clarence criticizing: Dr Bob and Bill W for accepting royalties; the price of the Big Book; the Trustees keeping members "in the dark about financial affairs" and the proposed election of a Cleveland member to the Board of Trustees. Clarence claimed to acting in behalf of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's rather harsh reply, refuted the points raised by Clarence and a copy was sent to each member of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's reply noted to Clarence that "Akron and NY AAs contributed their stories (with the exception of one story from Cleveland, your own)."

Don't know the amount but it's an odd situation.

Cheers
Arthur

_______________________________________________


From: fivequestionsguy
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013
Subject: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

Is there a source for his receiving remuneration? How much was he paid?

Thanks,
Peter
| 9210|9201|2013-05-04 08:16:57|Arthur S|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
Cleveland didn't start as a group until after the publication of the Big Book. They commuted to Akron prior to that.

Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.

As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.

===============================================
Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA "Another Prodigal Story"

Norman Hunt from Darien, CT "Educated Agnostic"

Earl T from Chicago, IL "He Sold Himself Short"

Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA "Lone Endeavor" (later removed in 2nd printing)

Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD "Our Southern Friend"

Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI "The Fearful One"

Clarence S from Cleveland, OH "Home Brewmeister"

Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH "The Rolling Stone"

Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH "The Back Slider"

Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH "An Alcoholic's Wife" (non-alcoholic)

Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH "The European Drinker"

Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH "The Salesman"
===============================================

Harrison's letter was clearly intended to be insulting and embarrassing to Clarence. That's why he distributed a copy to all the Central Committee Members - Clarence resigned as Central Committee Chair shortly afterward.

My reading is that Harrison was making a rejoinder to Clarence's persistent (and numerous) complaints of "keeping members in the dark about financial affairs" (i.e. that Clarence too was keeping members in the dark on a particular financial matter).

I interpret Harrison to be saying that of all the stories submitted for the first edition one of them was not a contribution - that one was from Clarence. If it wasn't a contribution then what was it?

That's my take on it - I've been taken to task on this by one member
privately - but I'm sticking to the assertion.

I know that Bill W and Dr Bob received royalties but have never seen any ledgers. I've also never seen ledgers for the contributions from the Rockefeller dinner donors etc., etc.).

Cheers

Arthur

____________________________________________

From: James Bliss
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013
Subject: Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

I am a little confused about the conclusion that Clarence Snyder was paid (which is perhaps the reason for the '?' in the subject).

From my reading of the two references, the only thing which is being stated is that:

1) One story in the Big Book came from a member in Cleveland (Clarence Snyder's story)

2) The balance of the stories came from members in New York and Akron

From reviewing the listing of member stories in the first edition which are listed on Silkworth.net this is not completely accurate if that is the proper reading, unless it is related to where they attended meetings when they were writing the story as opposed to where their actually residences were. But I am having difficulty extending this discrepancy to the point of imputing that Clarence Snyder was paid for his story.

Perhaps I am missing some context in these comments though. I would love to see some ledger entries which would verify this, if it exists.

Thanks for your research Arthur,

Jim

_________________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur S <arthur.s@live.com >
Sent: Fri, 03 May 2013 09:43:53 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: RE: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

There are two references.

In March 1943, the Alcoholic Foundation published a report on fund raising and royalties to Bill W and Dr Bob (GSO Archives reference Bx 22, R 10, File 8.2, p 16). The section titled "HISTORY OF THE BOOK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS AND PRESENT DISTRIBUTION OF ITS INCOME" begins with the sentence "The book Alcoholics Anonymous, published in 1939, was made possible by older members of the Akron and New York groups. Akron and New York members contributed their stories, excepting one, by a Cleveland member."

On July 7, 1944, Leonard V Harrison wrote a rather sharp letter to Clarence S in response to a June 26, 1944 letter from Clarence criticizing: Dr Bob and Bill W for accepting royalties; the price of the Big Book; the Trustees keeping members "in the dark about financial affairs" and the proposed election of a Cleveland member to the Board of Trustees. Clarence claimed to acting in behalf of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's rather harsh reply, refuted the points raised by Clarence and a copy was sent to each member of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's reply noted to Clarence that "Akron and NY AAs contributed their stories (with the exception of one story from Cleveland, your own)."

Don't know the amount but it's an odd situation.

Cheers
Arthur

_______________________________________________

From: fivequestionsguy
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013
Subject: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

Is there a source for his receiving remuneration? How much was he paid?

Thanks,
Peter
| 9211|9186|2013-05-05 09:38:29|ckbudnick|Talking about drugs in AA meetings recommended in 1952|
There is an AA publication (1948 and 1952) titled "Sedatives and the Alcoholic." The 1948 publication is copyrighted "Works Publishing." The 1952 publication even suggests that "occasional closed meetings devoted exclusively to the problem of sedatives and alcoholism can prove practical devices for the exchange of helpful knowledge and experience. If these closed meetings can be programmed informally and led by some one who has special knowledge of sedatives, their potential usefulness can be greatly enhanced."

Chris B.
Raleigh, North Carolina

___________________________________________

From GC the moderator:

WHAT DRUGS WERE CONSIDERED "SEDATIVES" AT THAT TIME?

See Glenn F. Chesnut, "Bill Wilson's Vision of the Light at Towns Hospital: December 14, 1934," pages 3-4
http://www.hindsfoot.org/lightbillw.pdf

"In my own reading of the literature from that period, the commonest sedatives used to calm down alcoholics were paraldehyde, barbiturates (colloquially called goofballs), bromides, chloral hydrate (colloquially called a Mickey or Mickey Finn), and codeine. Belladonna was normally spoken of as a 'sedative' only in certain specialized cases (such as whooping cough and Parkinson's disease). Nevertheless, at Knickerbocker Hospital in New York City (where Dr. Silkworth was also involved), even as late as 1952, we read of alcoholics who showed signs of going into delirium tremens being given 'bromides and belladonna for [their] jagged nerves.'"

"But even if Dr. Silkworth was still giving some of his patients belladonna (those who showed symptoms of going into violent delirium tremens) the dosage could not have been very high. Belladonna was, quite literally, a standard ingredient in witch's brews, and was not something that you gave people to make them gently and pleasantly drowsy, so they could drift off to sleep. Giving people belladonna could sometimes knock them out for a while, but the delirium it produced was even more apt to make them disruptive and uncontrollable. They would often compulsively repeat bizarre actions, and frequently could not even be made to sit still. This was what Dr. Silkworth was trying to prevent."

Silkworth said that when administering sedatives to alcoholics he normally tried to avoid giving alcoholics morphine, but the way he made that statement indicates that the opiate morphine could also be spoken of as a 'sedative' at that period of history.
___________________________________________

The AA publication which Chris mentions was not by Dr. Paul O., but it does cast an interesting sidelight on the question asked by <jdavidfarrell@yahoo.com> (jdavidfarrell at yahoo.com) who asked:

Paul O. (Acceptance Was the Answer and Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict) wrote a pamphlet for AA warning of the dangers of prescribing drugs to alcoholics. I have not been able to locate the name of this pamphlet. If anyone knows where I might be able to obtain a copy of it, I would be most appreciative.
| 9212|9212|2013-05-05 09:51:00|hjfree2001|New movie - The Anonymous People|
Perhaps not a "History" topic but "of interest"

Has Anyone seen or heard about the a new movie being previewed around the country?

From the web site:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/342545630/the-anonymous-people

"The Anonymous People.
A FEATURE DOCUMENTARY FILM about the 23.5 million Americans living in long-term recovery, and the emerging public recovery movement that will transform how alcohol and other drug problems are dealt with in our communities"

From what I can tell it deals with the exclusion resulting from anonymity

Blessed2BSober
Rob M
| 9213|8888|2013-05-06 07:40:07|Stubby|Re: Dr. Bob's definition of humility|
On p. 222 of "Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers," this plaque is described.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dani S wrote:
>
> I've seen a photo of that plaque that it's said Dr. Bob had on his desk, or in his office, that was his definition of humility.
>
> ================================================
> "Perpetual quietness of heart. It is to have no trouble. It is never to be fretted or vexed, irritable or sore; to wonder at nothing that is done to me, to feel nothing done against me. It is to be at rest when nobody praises me, and when I am blamed or despised, to have a blessed home in myself where I can go in and shut the door and kneel to my Father in secret and be at peace, as in a deep sea of calmness, when all around and about is seeming trouble."
> ================================================
>
> And thanks to this group's archives, I now know that it is a quote from Andrew Murray, a South African religious leader and writer who lived from 1828-1927 ... and that both Dr. Bob's children, who had been in his office many times, said that they never remembered seeing any such plaque.
>
> My question: what are the roots of the common statement that this was a plaque of his, and that it was his definition of humility?
>
> I can see how it describes a complete deflation of the ego, which is probably a pretty good definition of humility. But do we have any speaker tapes, articles, recollections, et cetera where he mentioned this to anyone?
>
> And, miniscule a point of history though this is, of whether it was in his office at all? (It seems VERY long to have inscribed on a plaque - the plaque reproducing it that I saw looked like it must have been a foot high - but I could easily imagine it being written out somewhere else that he could see it. And I don't know what his office looked like, but I wouldn't bet any money on anybody being able to remember or possibly even find everything displayed in mine, no matter how many times they had been in there!)
>
> Many, many thanks to all who contribute to this group....
>
> - Dani
>
| 9214|9201|2013-05-09 11:09:46|James Bliss|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
From James Bliss, Steve Stevenson, Joseph Nugent, and Rick Tompkins

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net> (james.bliss at comcast.net)

Thank you for your response Arthur,

I would first like to say that I was not trying to take anyone 'to task' but attempting to determine the veracity of the conclusion based on the evidence.

From my reading of your post, these are the only two comments (currently available) which are being used to conclude that Clarence was paid for his story. A comparison of evidence leaves a vast gap between the evidence which is the basis for concluding that Bill and Bob were paid royalties (including statements from Bill himself confirming this) and concluding that Clarence was paid for his story. My comment regarding the ledger was that perhaps a ledger had come up indicating Clarence was paid, not that a ledger was the level of proof required.

My personal opinion is that Clarence was a rather abrasive individual in many of his approaches. From the quote you provided it would appear that Leonard Harrison was being rather aggressive in his comments and, as you indicated, probably trying to be insulting towards Clarence. But, I would see no reason he would not blatantly state that Clarence had received payment if that was factual. That would have taken the steam out of Clarence's approach quickly in my opinion. Another reading could be that Harrison was attempting to start a rumor campaign to undermine Clarence and this was the approach he took, to imply that Clarence had received payment for his story, although no proof existed. Perhaps it is a valid conclusion, but perhaps it is not. From my personal perspective these two comments do not reach the level of proof but open the door for differences in opinions as to whether he did or did not. Personally, I will keep this information available for future reference if further evidence comes to light. I will respect the conclusion you draw in your opinion as I attempt to respect everyone's opinion based on evidence they provide. It is just that I personally cannot come to the same conclusion with this evidence since, to me, they raise more questions than they answer.

Again, thanks for your information Arthur, I was not trying to attack (take anyone 'to task'), just get to the facts from a historical perspective. I was not trying to start a debate but just question the
conclusion based on the evidence available, providing my reason for not reaching the same conclusion you came to.

Jim

- - - -

From: Steve Stevenson <steve@stevenson.net> (steve at stevenson.net)

I think the operable word is "contributed." As in, "members contributed their stories, excepting one." Meaning, to me, that everyone gave their story, as in for free, to the book except one.

Steve Stevenson

- - - -

From: Joseph Nugent <jumpinjoe1@gmail.com> (jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com)

Arthur,

Help me, did Dr. Bob not return his royalties?

I had listened to Sue Windows on the veranda and she had made the statement that he didn't accept the royalties. That was in the year 1992. I didn't know it was Sue Windows until someone said that was Sue I was talking to. She didn't have anything good to say about Bill Wilson (I was shocked).

Joe
Owen Sound, Ontario

- - - -

From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>

I've read somewhere (possibly in Not God) that A.A. number 3, Bill D. of Akron, demanded to be paid for his personal story and as a result it wasn't published in the First Editions .... Perhaps he relented on the financial commission by the time the Second Edition was developed.

Glad he did!

Rick, Illinois
| 9215|9212|2013-05-09 11:28:55|Roger|Re: New movie - The Anonymous People|
From Roger, Michael Margetis, Ted Bell, Diane Unger, and Jeffrey J.

- - - -

From: "Roger" <chief_roger@yahoo.com> (chief_roger at yahoo.com)

I was in Washington DC a few weeks ago and fortunately invited to a "sneak peak" showing of this film. I thought it was very compelling. Historically speaking, it includes video footage of Marty Mann, Harold Hughes, and parts of the Hughes Act testimony as it discussed the roots of alcoholism advocacy work. It uses film of Operation Awareness and other scenes from the 1970's. I thought the film was compelling and well done, likely to strike discussion among those who see it.

- - - -

From: "Michael Margetis" <mfmargetis@yahoo.com> (mfmargetis at yahoo.com)

Hmmm, sounds like something Marty M. was doing in the forties. Hardly a new concept, "addiction" being a "public health problem." I was surprised by someone I admire very much saying some (of us?) were/are hiding behind the "rhetoric" of the spirituality of anonymity…when in fact we were/are "ashamed." (Wow!) That was about halfway through the eight minute clip. I stopped watching at that point.

It was just a clip, perhaps taken out of context, but disturbing to me nonetheless. Is this appropriate for AAHL? Probably not. The rising tide of "people in recovery" who think anonymity has outlived its usefulness is nothing new. I think there's plenty to talk about concerning this topic ... just not here on AAHL.

Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland

- - - -

From: Ted Bell <notusuallyright@yahoo.com> (notusuallyright at yahoo.com)

Although I have a lot of thoughts about this, I don't have an opinion on outside issues. I think the general AAWS saying is, when other groups want to use the 12 steps they say "God bless, and best of luck to you." generally speaking, of course.

- - - -

From: diane unger <dianeea2003@yahoo.com> (dianeea2003 at yahoo.com)

I watched part of this film and anonymity was broken 3 times within the first minute. For me and many others anonymity has been the spiritual foundation of Alcoholics Anonymous. This crosses over the protective line on which the newcomer relies and many believe in. NOT A GOOD POLICY.

- - - -

From: Jeffrey J <jeffreyj341@yahoo.com> (jeffreyj341 at yahoo.com)

The only goal here is looking to make a buck $! Also to destroy what A.A. has given to us!
| 9216|8888|2013-05-09 12:03:10|Charlie Parker|Re: Dr. Bob's definition of humility|
From Charlie Parker and Robin F at tsfmails

- - - -

From: "Charlie Parker" <charlieparker@prodigy.net>
(charlieparker at prodigy.net)

I have it on my desk on a plaque. It's not that big and I bet my kids don't know it's there. Charlie P

- - - -

From: tsfmails <tsfmails@gmail.com>
(tsfmails at gmail.com)

Hello,

I first read of the humility plaque in 'Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers'
(page 222). Over the last 25 years or so it has often come to mind when I needed a bit more humility.

Regards
Robin F
| 9217|9217|2013-05-09 12:08:45|Sven J. Svensson|Worldwide Young People in A.A. Conventions Calendar|
There is a google calendar of all the known Young People in A.A. (YPAA) conventions and multi-day events worldwide. Almost every weekend of the year there is a YPAA convention or multi-day event somewhere in the world: including Australia, Europe, Asia, South Africa, and all across North America.

Email YPAA.Calendar@gmail.com if you have a YPAA convention or multi-day event to be listed.

You can access it from any browser using this link...

https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=rh9c91lb60q09o9m76l1b2f69s%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Europe%2FStockholm
| 9218|9201|2013-05-10 10:32:29|Arthur S|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
Hi All

To James: there is certainly room for skepticism and challenge if one wishes, and it is healthy to do so. I was not taken to task by you - it was someone else.
===============================================
To Steve: I fully agree with the point you make.
===============================================
To Joseph: In my judgment Sue Windows was not a reliable source for factual historical information. She was very biased (and resentful) toward Bill W and seemed to have had a persistent tendency of exaggerating Dr Bob and deprecating Bill W. In regards to Dr Bob and royalties, see "Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers" (p 269):

"Dr. Bob had written the Alcoholic Foundation (A.A.'s board of trustees) early in 1941 that he considered the idea of royalties "unwise," that the book should be "the property of the foundation 100 percent." This was Bill's belief as well, though he was not opposed to royalties; he had turned over to the foundation his shares of stock in the company formed to publish the Big Book - but with the proviso that Dr. Bob and Anne receive royalties for the rest of their lives.

--- Each co-founder was given to worrying (with reason) about the other's financial situation. Dr. Bob's first reaction was that Bill needed the royalty money more. But his own income fluctuated, however optimistic he might have been at times, and he had a family to care for. So Dr. Bob's reluctance to accept the money faded under the impact of reality.

--- Actually, talk of "royalties" had been largely academic up to
this point. Sums entered under that category had been going chiefly to
support the headquarters office. But by the end of 1942, sales of the Big Book were steadily on the increase, and each of the co-founders received a total of $875 in royalties for that year - still a long way from the mythical $32,000 apiece."

In October 1942, Clarence S (Snyder) stirred up a controversy after
discovering that Dr Bob and Bill W were receiving royalties from Big Book sales. Bill and Dr Bob reexamined the problem of their financial status and concluded that royalties seemed to be the only answer to the problem.

--- Bill sought counsel from his spiritual sponsor, Father Edward Dowling who suggested that Bill and Dr Bob could certainly not accept money for 12th Step work but that they should accept royalties as compensation for special services. This later formed the basis for Tradition 8 and Concept 11.

--- Due to the amount of time both co-founders dedicated to the Fellowship, it was impossible for either of them to earn a living through their normal professions.
===============================================
To Rick: I'm not sure why Bill D (AA#3) did not have his story included in either the manuscript or 1st edition Big Book. I've always felt it was because he is already discussed in some detail in the Big Book chapter "A Vision for You" (p 156-158). Bill W personally went to Akron to record Bill D's story for the 2nd edition. Interestingly, Bill D was also one of the two Panel 1 Delegates from Ohio.
===============================================
Cheers

Arthur

_______________________________________________

From: James Bliss
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013
Subject: Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

From James Bliss, Steve Stevenson, Joseph Nugent, and Rick Tompkins

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

Thank you for your response Arthur,

I would first like to say that I was not trying to take anyone 'to task' but attempting to determine the veracity of the conclusion based on the evidence.

From my reading of your post, these are the only two comments (currently available) which are being used to conclude that Clarence was paid for his story. A comparison of evidence leaves a vast gap between the evidence which is the basis for concluding that Bill and Bob were paid royalties (including statements from Bill himself confirming this) and concluding that Clarence was paid for his story. My comment regarding the ledger was that perhaps a ledger had come up indicating Clarence was paid, not that a ledger was the level of proof required.

My personal opinion is that Clarence was a rather abrasive individual in
many of his approaches. From the quote you provided it would appear that
Leonard Harrison was being rather aggressive in his comments and, as you
indicated, probably trying to be insulting towards Clarence. But, I would
see no reason he would not blatantly state that Clarence had received
payment if that was factual. That would have taken the steam out of
Clarence's approach quickly in my opinion. Another reading could be that
Harrison was attempting to start a rumor campaign to undermine Clarence and
this was the approach he took, to imply that Clarence had received payment
for his story, although no proof existed. Perhaps it is a valid conclusion,
but perhaps it is not. From my personal perspective these two comments do
not reach the level of proof but open the door for differences in opinions
as to whether he did or did not. Personally, I will keep this information
available for future reference if further evidence comes to light. I will
respect the conclusion you draw in your opinion as I attempt to respect
everyone's opinion based on evidence they provide. It is just that I
personally cannot come to the same conclusion with this evidence since, to
me, they raise more questions than they answer.

Again, thanks for your information Arthur, I was not trying to attack (take
anyone 'to task'), just get to the facts from a historical perspective. I
was not trying to start a debate but just question the
conclusion based on the evidence available, providing my reason for not
reaching the same conclusion you came to.

Jim

- - - -

From: Steve Stevenson <steve@stevenson.net>
(steve at stevenson.net)

I think the operable word is "contributed." As in, "members contributed
their stories, excepting one." Meaning, to me, that everyone gave their
story, as in for free, to the book except one.

Steve Stevenson

- - - -

From: Joseph Nugent <jumpinjoe1@gmail.com>
(jumpinjoe1 at gmail.com)

Arthur,

Help me, did Dr. Bob not return his royalties?

I had listened to Sue Windows on the veranda and she had made the statement
that he didn't accept the royalties. That was in the year 1992. I didn't
know it was Sue Windows until someone said that was Sue I was talking to.
She didn't have anything good to say about Bill Wilson (I was shocked).

Joe
Owen Sound, Ontario

- - - -

From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net)

I've read somewhere (possibly in Not God) that A.A. number 3, Bill D. of
Akron, demanded to be paid for his personal story and as a result it wasn't
published in the First Editions .... Perhaps he relented on the financial
commission by the time the Second Edition was developed.

Glad he did!

Rick, Illinois
| 9219|9201|2013-05-11 09:54:16|John Barton|Re: Why was the Bill D story not in 1st edit. Big Book?|
I have to double check the source for this, but if I remember correctly Bill D. was a lttle skeptical on the whole book idea... not to the extent Del Tryon was (said it was "a racket") but I believe he had some reservations so declined to participate in the 1st Edition. I recall it had to do with the fact that the book was, in actuality, the result of "investors" in a "for profit" publishing company at the time the stories were collected. The book was intended to be profitable for the shareholders....yes...that was the original basis for the book. Of course the near term result was quite different and I believe Bill D. was quite happy to include his story in the 2nd edition.

God Bless,

John B
| 9220|9201|2013-05-13 11:10:14|Chuck Parkhurst|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
All of this aside, do we know whether Clarence was paid for his story?
| 9221|9221|2013-05-13 11:15:15|Glenn Chesnut|Father Ed Dowling|
I have now posted a draft of the book I am writing called "Father Ed Dowling and Father Ralph Pfau."

Father Ed Dowling S.J., a Jesuit priest from St. Louis, was Bill W.'s sponsor. Father Pfau, a diocesan priest from Indianapolis, was the first Roman Catholic priest to get sober in AA, and also one of the four most-published AA authors.

For an outline of the topics covered in the book see:
http://hindsfoot.org/inprogr.html

The book is composed of three parts: Parts One and Three have already been up for a while, but this is the first time that the section on Father Ed Dowling has been exposed to public view.

=================================================
Part One. The First Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous
http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.doc

PART TWO. FATHER ED DOWLING
http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

Part Three. Father Ralph Pfau
http://hindsfoot.org/pfcath.pdf
=================================================

There are sections in Part Two, for people who might be interested, on two of the most important people in Bill Wilson's early spirituality, Emmet Fox and Richard Maurice Bucke (author of the book "Cosmic Consciousness)."

Also sections on Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy.

Also sections on two important Jesuit thinkers of that time: on Father Teilhard de Chardin S.J. and his ideas about the growth of human spirituality in our evolution from the apes, and on Cardinal Jean Danielou S.J., who used the teaching of perfection as perpetual progress in St. Gregory of Nyssa to counter the arguments of the twentieth century European existentialists and the other prominent atheists of that period.
| 9222|9221|2013-05-14 09:08:25|barney52278|Father John Doe - pseudonym used by Ralph Pfau|
Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time (over 30 years), Father Ralph Pfau. Where/when I sobered up, it was common practice to present a new recruit with literature upon completion of the 5th step (yes, we were tricked into taking steps, our sponsors had no shame). One of the more common books given was Sobriety and Beyond by Father John Doe (aka Pfau). However, if it looked like the new recruit was having difficulty getting to the 5th step, then he/she was lent a copy of the appropriate Golden Book (also by Father John Doe).

Do those books still exist?

PS, I still make a big deal about the 5th step, IMHO that's where the miracle begins. From the 5th step promises: "We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience."

=================================================
FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:
Do these books still exist? Yes, Hazelden has kept all his books in print. You can get them by contacting Hazelden.

Father Ralph Pfau wrote his Golden Books and other AA books under the pseudonym of "Father John Doe," so you need to look under both names.

Ralph was the first Roman Catholic priest to get sober in Alcoholics Anonymous (he came in on November 10, 1943), and under the pen name which he chose to use, Father John Doe, he wrote his fourteen Golden Books back in the 1940�s and 50�s and early 60�s. They are still being read and used by A.A.�s today: Spiritual Side (1947), Tolerance (1948), Attitudes (1949), Action (1950), Happiness (1951), Excuses (1952), Sponsorship (1953), Principles (1954), Resentments (1955), Decisions (1957), Passion (1960), Sanity (1963), Sanctity (1964), and Living (1964).

They were coming out once a year at the beginning, but then he was slowed down as he also published three much longer books: Sobriety and Beyond (1955), Sobriety Without End (1957), and an autobiography, which he entitled Prodigal Shepherd, in 1958 (a shorter version of this ran as a two-part series in Look magazine).

For more about his, see "Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books," the transcript of a talk given by Glenn F. Chesnut at the 6th National AA Archives Workshop held in the hills of southern Indiana, in Clarksville, immediately across the river from Louisville, Kentucky, at the Saturday morning session, September 29, 2001. It was in Indianapolis and this part of southern Indiana that Father Pfau served as a parish priest during his younger years:

http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou3.html

And see also "Photos of Father Ralph Pfau: From the Archdiocesan Archives in Indianapolis" at:

http://hindsfoot.org/pfpix1.html

If you make an appointment to visit the Archdiocesan Archives, you can also see one of Father Ralph's report cards, from his seminary days -- the report card is in Latin, because that was back in the days before the Second Vatican Council allowed the Catholic Church in the U.S. and Canada to start using English all the time -- and they translated his first name Ralph into biblical Latin as "Raphael," after the archangel.
=================================================

Original message rom: Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:42 AM
Subject: Father Ed Dowling


I have now posted a draft of the book I am writing called "Father Ed Dowling and Father Ralph Pfau."

Father Ed Dowling S.J., a Jesuit priest from St. Louis, was Bill W.'s sponsor. Father Pfau, a diocesan priest from Indianapolis, was the first Roman Catholic priest to get sober in AA, and also one of the four most-published AA authors.

For an outline of the topics covered in the book see:
http://hindsfoot.org/inprogr.html

The book is composed of three parts: Parts One and Three have already been up for a while, but this is the first time that the section on Father Ed Dowling has been exposed to public view.

=================================================
Part One. The First Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous
http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.doc

PART TWO. FATHER ED DOWLING
http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

Part Three. Father Ralph Pfau
http://hindsfoot.org/pfcath.pdf
=================================================

There are sections in Part Two, for people who might be interested, on two of the most important people in Bill Wilson's early spirituality, Emmet Fox and Richard Maurice Bucke (author of the book "Cosmic Consciousness)."

Also sections on Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy.

Also sections on two important Jesuit thinkers of that time: on Father Teilhard de Chardin S.J. and his ideas about the growth of human spirituality in our evolution from the apes, and on Cardinal Jean Danielou S.J., who used the teaching of perfection as perpetual progress in St. Gregory of Nyssa to counter the arguments of the twentieth century European existentialists and the other prominent atheists of that period.
| 9223|9204|2013-05-14 09:11:06|Michael Oates|Re: Craving vs. desire in the book Changed by Grace|
I always felt I craved a drink/drug before I got it then became obsessed with getting another after I received one. Then I got to AA and felt you guys were trying to tell me what words meant to Alcoholics as opposed to everyone else no wonder folks think we are a cult. It is one of the greatest gifts for me to know that I have purpose beyond myself.

Michael S. Oates
D.O.S. 09-23-1993


=========================================
Glenn F. Chesnut, Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A. (2006), pp. 90-91.

SEE FOURTH PARAGRAPH BELOW, LINES 2-3 -- "When alcoholics are scolded for their drinking ... their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more."

The apostle Paul ... made an important new discovery about the nature of divine grace , which is found in Romans 7-8, and this in turn became the heart of the twelve step program. He found that the power of grace had an almost magical ability to produce a soul change (a deep psychic change ) and heal the kind of self-destructive behaviors which formed the most intractable of all human woes. He realized that the problems which most deeply torment those who want to lead good lives, are the obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors which we know are wrong and destructive, but which we cannot stop ourselves from doing by our own unaided will power (Romans 7:15-24).

"I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law [of God] is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within .... I can will what is right, but I cannot do it .... For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my arms and legs another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my arms and legs. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"

Alcoholics give us an excellent example of the kind of behavior Paul was describing. An alcoholic eventually arrives at a point like the one Bill Wilson finally reached at the end of his drinking career, where he knew in his inmost self that his out-of-control drinking was an offense against all that was holy and good. But in spite of what the sane and moral part of his mind was trying to command his body to do, every day it was as though his legs would start walking automatically to the liquor store, and the next thing he knew, his arms, as though they had a mind of their own, were lifting the bottle to his lips.

Preaching the law , Paul says, does no good for someone caught in that situation. Scolding, punishment, and threats of hellfire not only will not work, but make the behavior even worse. When alcoholics are scolded for their drinking, for example, their instant reaction is to crave a drink even more. The more compulsive overeaters cringe when other people make fun of them and call them "fatty" and other names like that, and again, the more people scold them and make fun of them, the more they crave doughnuts or potato chips or whatever other comfort food they go to in order to relieve stress. If we have tempers which get us in trouble, where we are continually blowing up at our bosses or our spouses or our children, the attempt to control our anger by sheer will-power alone will not work at all (or it will simply delay our explosions of anger and make them even worse, or it will plunge us into depression instead).
=========================================

BIG BOOK, THE DOCTOR'S OPINION

(pp. xxv-xxvi) Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures can be of maximum benefit.

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker.

(pp. xxvi-xxvii) They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks -- drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again.

(p. xxvii) On the other hand ... once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed ... suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.

(pp. xxvii-xxviii) I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.

There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather then continue to fight.

(p. xxviii) All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.
| 9224|9212|2013-05-14 09:12:23|CHRISTINA HURST|Re: New movie - The Anonymous People|
I was intrigued by the clip but had the same response as others. I respect the prinicipal of anonymity. I do not hide that fact that I am in recovery, but I do not shout it from the rooftops either. I remember my past so I do not return. I have an incredible life today due to the fact that I have long term sobriety.

On another note. I read Marty Mann's biography. When she started her alcohol education organization Bill Wilson and Bob Smith served on her Board of Directors. Their names were printed on the letterhead as Board Members. This is when Bill and Bob realized what a mistake they made and resigned from the Board. Their affiliation and anonymity were questioned.

Interesting stuff
Chris
| 9225|9212|2013-05-14 09:43:59|Glenn Chesnut|Re: New movie - The Anonymous People|
Well, one little confusion here, in Chris's mention of Mrs. Marty Mann. When Bill W. and Dr. Bob agreed to allow their names to appear on the letterhead of Marty's National Council on Alcoholism, this was not seen as an anonymity issue back at that time (the subject matter of what would later be codified as the 11th and 12th Traditions). That was because neither Bill W. nor Dr. Bob were identified as AA members on the letterhead.

It instead raised the issue later talked about in the 6th Tradition: "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose."

- - - -

As Nancy Olson explained it (Marty Mann had been her AA sponsor): "Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith, the other co-founder of A.A., both became members of the Advisory Board of Marty's organization, even allowing their names (not their relationship to A.A.) to appear on her letterhead."

http://www.a-1associates.com/Olson/marty.htm

- - - -

Page 185 of Sally and David Brown's biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: in 1946, Yale University was planning to start decreasing its financial support of the NCEA, so Marty started a major public appeal for funds to help them keep going. In her fund raising literature, "AA was referred to throughout, and Bill Wilson's and Bob Smith's names were still on NCEA's letterhead. Included in the mailing were some AA individuals and groups. The letter confused AA members about who was doing the soliciting, AA or NCEA, and whether NCEA and AA funds were to be mingled."

http://books.google.com/books?id=i4lFkO58uE8C&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=marty+mann+%22national+council+on+alcoholism%22+letterhead&source=bl&ots=mmpcvQQof_&sig=-ybR7_z0l_d9pmQBaFCDVhlPxeI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oGSSUaziNKfeyAGa3YGQDQ&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=marty%20mann%20%22national%20council%20on%20alcoholism%22%20letterhead&f=false


_____________________________________________

Message 9224 from: CHRISTINA HURST <wayjazzy9@msn.com>
(wayjazzy9 at msn.com)

I was intrigued by the clip but had the same response as others. I respect the principle of anonymity. I do not hide that fact that I am in recovery, but I do not shout it from the rooftops either. I remember my past so I do not return. I have an incredible life today due to the fact that I have long term sobriety.

On another note. I read Marty Mann's biography. When she started her alcohol education organization Bill Wilson and Bob Smith served on her Board of Directors. Their names were printed on the letterhead as Board Members. This is when Bill and Bob realized what a mistake they made and resigned from the Board. Their affiliation and anonymity were questioned.

Interesting stuff
Chris
| 9226|9221|2013-05-15 08:45:34|BILL MCINTIRE|Re: Father John Doe - pseudonym used by Ralph Pfau|
I really love that book but my favorite of his books was "The Prodigal Shepard." It is his story in print. I do not run into his books real often any more but most of the fellas I know sober 25 yrs or more still talk about his books fairly often.

Bill M

________________________________

From: "rowevan@centurylink.net"
<rowevan@centurylink.net> (rowevan at centurylink.net)
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013
Subject: Father John Doe - pseudonym used by Ralph Pfau

Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time (over 30 years), Father Ralph Pfau. Where/when I sobered up, it was common practice to present a new recruit with literature upon completion of the 5th step (yes, we were tricked into taking steps, our sponsors had no shame). One of the more common books given was Sobriety and Beyond by Father John Doe (aka Pfau). However, if it looked like the new recruit was having difficulty getting to the 5th step, then he/she was lent a copy of the appropriate Golden Book (also by Father John Doe).

Do those books still exist?

PS, I still make a big deal about the 5th step, IMHO that's where the miracle begins. From the 5th step promises: "We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience."

=================================================
FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:
Do these books still exist? Yes, Hazelden has kept all his books in print. You can get them by contacting Hazelden.

Father Ralph Pfau wrote his Golden Books and other AA books under the pseudonym of "Father John Doe," so you need to look under both names.

Ralph was the first Roman Catholic priest to get sober in Alcoholics Anonymous (he came in on November 10, 1943), and under the pen name which he chose to use, Father John Doe, he wrote his fourteen Golden Books back in the 1940� and 50� and early 60�. They are still being read and used by A.A.� today: Spiritual Side (1947), Tolerance (1948), Attitudes (1949), Action (1950), Happiness (1951), Excuses (1952), Sponsorship (1953), Principles (1954), Resentments (1955), Decisions (1957), Passion (1960), Sanity (1963), Sanctity (1964), and Living (1964).

They were coming out once a year at the beginning, but then he was slowed down as he also published three much longer books: Sobriety and Beyond (1955), Sobriety Without End (1957), and an autobiography, which he entitled Prodigal Shepherd, in 1958 (a shorter version of this ran as a two-part series in Look magazine).

For more about his, see "Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books," the transcript of a talk given by Glenn F. Chesnut at the 6th National AA Archives Workshop held in the hills of southern Indiana, in Clarksville, immediately across the river from Louisville, Kentucky, at the Saturday morning session, September 29, 2001. It was in Indianapolis and this part of southern Indiana that Father Pfau served as a parish priest during his younger years:

http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou3.html

And see also "Photos of Father Ralph Pfau: From the Archdiocesan Archives in Indianapolis" at:

http://hindsfoot.org/pfpix1.html

If you make an appointment to visit the Archdiocesan Archives, you can also see one of Father Ralph's report cards, from his seminary days -- the report card is in Latin, because that was back in the days before the Second Vatican Council allowed the Catholic Church in the U.S. and Canada to start using English all the time -- and they translated his first name Ralph into biblical Latin as "Raphael," after the archangel.
=================================================

Original message rom: Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:42 AM
Subject: Father Ed Dowling

I have now posted a draft of the book I am writing called "Father Ed Dowling and Father Ralph Pfau."

Father Ed Dowling S.J., a Jesuit priest from St. Louis, was Bill W.'s sponsor. Father Pfau, a diocesan priest from Indianapolis, was the first Roman Catholic priest to get sober in AA, and also one of the four most-published AA authors.

For an outline of the topics covered in the book see:
http://hindsfoot.org/inprogr.html

The book is composed of three parts: Parts One and Three have already been up for a while, but this is the first time that the section on Father Ed Dowling has been exposed to public view.

=================================================
Part One. The First Roman Catholics in Alcoholics Anonymous
http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.doc

PART TWO. FATHER ED DOWLING
http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

Part Three. Father Ralph Pfau
http://hindsfoot.org/pfcath.pdf
=================================================

There are sections in Part Two, for people who might be interested, on two of the most important people in Bill Wilson's early spirituality, Emmet Fox and Richard Maurice Bucke (author of the book "Cosmic Consciousness)."

Also sections on Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy.

Also sections on two important Jesuit thinkers of that time: on Father Teilhard de Chardin S.J. and his ideas about the growth of human spirituality in our evolution from the apes, and on Cardinal Jean Danielou S.J., who used the teaching of perfection as perpetual progress in St. Gregory of Nyssa to counter the arguments of the twentieth century European existentialists and the other prominent atheists of that period.
| 9227|9227|2013-05-18 11:25:23|Glenn Chesnut|The Authors, edited by Fiona Dodd|
The Authors: Short biographies of the authors of the stories in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, ed. by Fiona Dodd (County Mayo, Ireland)

It has just been published: http://hindsfoot.org/kbbbio1.html

Suggested as a good reference book to use in Big Book study groups.

"The beloved stories at the end of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous have carried the AA message to people of all sorts and kinds for many years. They were the original meeting in print. All of us in the fellowship have our favourite story which we refer back to time and time again for comfort and inspiration. But what more do we know about the men and women who wrote those stories, beyond the brief words which were recorded in the Big Book? Who exactly were these pioneers who carried the message to the four corners of the world, and encouraged and inspired so many to recover from alcoholism?

This book puts together in one place all the short biographies which were later assembled within the Alcoholics Anonymous tradition, giving such additional information as we have about the men and women who wrote the stories at the end of the Big Book. These brief supplemental biographies tell how they lived and died, what they did for a living, and any other information about them which had been preserved in the A.A. oral tradition or which could be gleaned from other old documents, obituaries, or archival repositories. They were put together in their present form in a project begun in 2001 (the year the fourth edition appeared) by a group of devoted A.A. members which included -- quite importantly -- some of the last people, now getting on in years, who had personally known the original members from the 1930s and 40s.

This book covers all of the stories which appeared in the original manuscript of Alcoholic Anonymous, the first edition in 1939, the second edition in 1955, and the third edition in 1976."
| 9228|9182|2013-05-19 11:11:35|Charles Knapp|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
Hello

I would not be so quick to rule Irma Livoni's death a suicide. I lived in Southern California for nearly 20 years, 12 of which I served as Mid Southern California Area 9 Archivist. I was there same time Harry the Wino was there and he introduce me to many of the longtimers including Sybil. She told me the same story about Irma and I can remember hearing her tell it at least 2 other times. Not once did I hear Sybil say Irma committed suicide. She always said she "died drunk." I believe had Irma committed suicide Sybil would have included this information in the story if only to drive home the point that there were grave consequences of this committees actions.

While in So Cal I tried to find out what ever happen to her. No one I ever spoke with could tell me anything about her after she left AA. I use the LA Public Library and search their data base of newspapers and could never find an obituary or any articles that had the name Irma Livoni. I got some conflicting info about her as well. I heard she was single, married and even divorced. I was told she was a waitress, a secretary and was told she worked in the shipyards in Long Beach. Sybil said she was a divorced book keeper.

When I ask why Irma was being kicked out, all Sybil would say is "she wasn't very lady like." She came to meetings all dressed up and turning heads and lots of flirting. She also added that it was partly the insistence of the jealous wives of the members that help to get Irma banned from AA. Remember there were only a hand full of females in all of AA and maybe only 4 or 5 in Southern California in 1941.

As far as the letter goes, I actually saw a carbon copy of this letter in the LA Central Office Archives. The carbon copy was not on letterhead but was on thin yellow paper....almost like tissue paper. The one floating around So Cal I believe is a "reproduction" that the Southern California Area 5 Archives Committee created sometime in the 1970's. The font on these copies is consistent with an IBM Select II typewriter and not the font from any 1941 vintages manual typewriter. If a real copy does exist it would be great if it could be scanned and put on line instead of just a transcript of this letter.

The address on the letter, 939 S. Gramercy Place, is located in Central Los Angles, Wilshire district to be more exact. In 1941 Central LA was a very nice area of town. The address is a four story apartment building with about 30 apartments. It was built in the 1920's and is still standing. I believe she would have to had a pretty good job to live there.

Now that I live in Wisconsin and have no access to any AA archives, I spend most my time doing genealogy. With all of the tools available to me I have found a good deal about Irma Livoni and what I have found was as follows:

1910 US Census showed a Irma E Brown was born in Buckeye, Maricopa County, Arizona about 1907

1920 US Census showed a Irma E Brown age 12 was living in Maricopa County, Arizona

1930 US Census showed a Irma Edna Brown age 22, single and was living in Phoenix, Maricopa, Arizona -- occupation: stenographer

1930 US Census has Donald V Livoni was living with his uncle in Long Beach CA. (shows he was single)

1935 City Directory shows a V Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents - Irma E. listed as wife

1939 City Directory shows Donal Livoni living in Pasadena CA (no wife listed) 1940 City Directory shows a Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents (no wife listed)

1940 US Census shows an Irma Livoni as an inmate in the State Hospital for the Insane in Stockton California - marital status was single

1940 US Census shows a V D Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents - marital status was married (no wife listed)

1941 City Directory shows a Mary Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona at the same address as Don's parents (Mary is Don's 2nd wife)

1941 Feb World War II Army Enlistment of Donald V Livoni it listed him as married - No image was available, but I am sure Mary would be listed as his wife

1941 in a letter dated December 6, 1941 Irma Livoni is kicked out of AA

1943 California Marriage Certificate #12149 for a Irma E Livoni and a Harold Thompson Craig recorded in Marriage Book 1939 Page 65. Married June 2, 1943.
It showed this was a 2nd marriage for both parties, her maiden name was Brown and her occupation was bookkeeper. They were both living in Long Beach and were next door neighbors.

1947 City Directory shows a Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents with a new wife Mary Livoni

1956 California Death Index listed Harold T Craig born 7 Jul 1897in California died May 18 1956 in Los Angeles County. SSN 526-10-5776

1956 California Death Index listed Harold Thompson Craig, born 7 Jul 1897in California died May 18 1956 in Los Angeles County. SSN 526-10-5776

1969 Social Security Death Index shows Donald V. Livoni died Sept 4, 1969 in Orange Co. CA

1974 Social Security Death Indexshows Irma Craig, SSN 526-10-5776born 16 Aug

1907 died Aug 1974 and last known Residence was Long Beach CA

1974 California Death Index listed Irma E Craig born Aug 16, 1907 in Arizona died August 24, 1974 in Los Angeles County. SSN 561 12 4758

I found no children born to Irma from either marriage. I had requested a death certificate from the State of Calif for Irma E Craig almost a month ago, but haven 't yet received it. I also have requested marriage and divorce records from Arizona and I have not heard from the Superior Court of Maricopa County either. The State Hospital in Stockton California closed in 1995. Most of the patients ' records are housed in the State of California Archives in Sacramento. I contact the archives and was told state law requires that the records remain closed for a period of 75 years to protect the patient's rights. This time period will expire in 2 or 3 years and perhaps more info on Irma 's incarceration will be available at that time.

I am convinced this is the same person that is named in the December 1941 letter and also convinced she did not commit suicide over this matter unless it was 33 years after being ask to leave AA. At this point I am not even sure she died
drunk either. Once I get the death certificate I will let you know.

One sad note ..... I found her obituary in the Aug 26, 1974 Press-Telegram Long Beach, California. It read simply "CRAIG, Erma. Monttell Mortuary 436-2284." This mortuary has since merged with another. When I contacted them I was told they no longer had records going back to 1974. Then I described the obit to the director of the funeral home and was told this was normal for a person who died with no next of kin or anyone close to provide information for a proper obit.

As I get more info I will pass it on. Like so many of the myths in A.A. that are portrayed as fact, I hope this info might help to at least provide another theory on what might have really happen to Irma Livoni after she left AA and not what we think might have happen to her. It all comes down to the fact we do not know what really happen and it is better to admit we don't know than adding embellishments and pass them off as true facts.

I have copies of several items that are listed above including a photo of Irma E Brown when she was18 years old that I am willing to share. Just send me an email with "Irma Iivoni" in the subject field.

Hope you enjoy

Charles from Wisconsin


________________________________
>From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013
>Subject: Irma Livoni suicide
>
>
>Is there other corroboration to this story that committed suicide after receiving the letter kicking her out of AA? Jackie B. mentioned the story to me (she is the one who writes the good AA plays) and I found this one reference online:

http://www.scanneronline.org/2010/07/queers-crackpots-and-fallen-women.html

By Jim S on July 18, 2010

I had a discussion with Peter C. about a surprising direct link between the Third Tradition and the SCA [Sexual Compulsives Anonymous] program. Irma Livoni was an AA member, in Los Angeles, who was kicked out of that fellowship by a self-appointed group. Why? In a letter dated December 6, 1941 from the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, Irma was kicked out "for reasons which should be most apparent." According to Peter, she was sleeping around in AA. Sexually compulsive perhaps? She received her letter the on December 8, 1941 -- the day after Pearl Harbor. Los Angeles was totally blacked out because there was a real fear that the Japanese would attack the mainland. She's all alone. It's Christmas time. The end of the world and the only group that had offered any hope to Irma had just kicked her out. Much of this has been whitewashed on the internet sites but according to Peter, Irma went to the roof of her building and jumped to her death. Irma's sponsor in AA was Sybil Corwin. (Sybil is an important part of AA history herself) Sybil wrote to Bill W about the incident.
| 9229|9182|2013-05-20 09:02:31|Michael Gwirtz|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
Harry the wino was my sponsor for a decade. I have his copy of the Irma Livoni letter on a disc. He has all of Sybil's correspondence that he could find including her writings from when she was young, living with her family in Texas. Included is a letter to her daughter (the God box letter) where she explains about using a God box. It was the earliest mention , I was told, of using the God Box.

I would think that the Los Angeles archives, which was open to Harry at the time of the Watts riots, would have the original. Harry was busy copying the LA mother group history as buildings were burning a block away from him.

Harry has a lot of Sybil's letters and pictures. Her letter to Bill W following the death of Tex Adams her brother, and a member of the Hole in the Wall group, I believe, the 2nd LA group.

Bob Corwin , one of Sybil's husbands, was Harry's sponsor before Frank Kell. Harry used to say Bob had glasses as thick as Coca Cola bottles and how he was fearful of driving on the freeways of Los Angeles with him. Frank's sponsor was Cliff Walker. Harry would tell me that Bill W would stay at Cliff's house when he would visit Los Angeles. Dorothy, Cliff's wife. had a letter years before Al Anon titled "non AA" listing the steps of this non-AA for the families of alcoholics.

Harry had pictures of all of these people, as well as Jimmy and Rosa Burwell (the founder of the Philadelphia Mother Group) -- that is how we originally met.

Harry had tapes of all these original LA members including a tape where Sybil mentions Irma. She mentions no suicide. Just the letter. If a suicide was known to Sybil, she might have mentioned it.

Harry never told me about a suicide and if you knew Harry and his love of AA history you know he would have mentioned it in the discussions we had daily for that decade.

Harry's disc collections of AA history are a wealth of information. He made sure that several people had copies of the discs. Harry's daughter gave me the original copies after he passed. I then had 2 sets. I discussed Addie's letters at Jared's AA history Workshop several months ago at Elizabethtown college.

If any AAHL's have any of the tapes of Harry, please arrange to contact me. Thank you,

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you in Springfield NAAAW
| 9230|9182|2013-05-20 10:55:28|stalban2001|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
From stalban, Cindy Miller, and John Moore

- - - -

From: stalban2001 <stalban2001@yahoo.com>
(stalban2001 at yahoo.com)

Thank you for your research. I have always been moved by the story of Irma Livoni and am gratified that AA's tradition of "no requirement for membership except the desire to stop drinking" was the result. But, yet I grieve for Irma L. and her uncertain fate.

Who were the men who wrote the letter? Were they self-appointed? Did the speak for anyone but themselves? Did any of them, after acquiring more sobriety and a more spiritual outlook, ever express regrets or attempt to make amends? I'd love to hear a story of redemption out of this unhappy tale.

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

Kudos to Charles for excellent and fascinating research!

-cm

- - - -

From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>
(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

Thank you Charles for this amazing bit of genealogical research. It will be interesting to see what the death certs and the state hospital records reveal.

I saw Sybil at meetings pretty often and she was speaker at my home group in South Bay around 1975; she was a great speaker and her recorded talks are a fount of information about early AA.

I got sober in So California and in the early 1970's someone was handing around a carbon copy of the Irma Livoni letter. I wondered why such a document was being passed around and not be stored in archives, and now it makes sense that I probably was viewing a reproduction. As I recall it was on thin glossy gray carbon paper and maybe yes, an IBM Selectric could have been used. My impression, in hindsight, is that it probably was not done on a manual typewriter.

On a lighter note, the facts you have uncovered to kind of spoil what was otherwise a good story, about Irma dying drunk and committing suicide. Oh well, some of us never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Thanks again
John M
12-07-1971
| 9231|9182|2013-05-20 11:01:08|J. Lobdell|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
Irma Edna Brown is recorded as having died in Los Angeles or Long Beach 15 Aug 1974 aged 67. Donald V. Livoni was married when he entered the service in Summer 1941. He died aged 60 in CA in 1969.

The difficulty is that Irma Edna Brown's SSDI and California Death listings are both under Irma Edna Craig, who seems otherwise to be confused with an Irma Mae Craig b. 1909.

Btw Irma had a sister Norma who lived longer -- both of them are shown in a photo in the Maricopa H S Yearbook for 1925.

There is no death record, so far as anyone knows, for Irma Edna Brown [b. Arizona Territory 1907] or Irma Livoni.

_______________________________________________
From: Charles Knapp

Hello

I would not be so quick to rule Irma Livoni's death a suicide. I lived in Southern California for nearly 20 years, 12 of which I served as Mid Southern California Area 9 Archivist. I was there same time Harry the Wino was there and he introduce me to many of the longtimers including Sybil. She told me the same story about Irma and I can remember hearing her tell it at least 2 other times. Not once did I hear Sybil say Irma committed suicide. She always said she "died drunk." I believe had Irma committed suicide Sybil would have included this information in the story if only to drive home the point that there were grave consequences of this committees actions.

While in So Cal I tried to find out what ever happen to her. No one I ever spoke with could tell me anything about her after she left AA. I use the LA Public Library and search their data base of newspapers and could never find an obituary or any articles that had the name Irma Livoni. I got some conflicting info about her as well. I heard she was single, married and even divorced. I was told she was a waitress, a secretary and was told she worked in the shipyards in Long Beach. Sybil said she was a divorced book keeper.

When I ask why Irma was being kicked out, all Sybil would say is "she wasn't very lady like." She came to meetings all dressed up and turning heads and lots of flirting. She also added that it was partly the insistence of the jealous wives of the members that help to get Irma banned from AA. Remember there were only a hand full of females in all of AA and maybe only 4 or 5 in Southern California in 1941.

As far as the letter goes, I actually saw a carbon copy of this letter in the LA Central Office Archives. The carbon copy was not on letterhead but was on thin yellow paper....almost like tissue paper. The one floating around So Cal I believe is a "reproduction" that the Southern California Area 5 Archives Committee created sometime in the 1970's. The font on these copies is consistent with an IBM Select II typewriter and not the font from any 1941 vintages manual typewriter. If a real copy does exist it would be great if it could be scanned and put on line instead of just a transcript of this letter.

The address on the letter, 939 S. Gramercy Place, is located in Central Los Angles, Wilshire district to be more exact. In 1941 Central LA was a very nice area of town. The address is a four story apartment building with about 30 apartments. It was built in the 1920's and is still standing. I believe she would have to had a pretty good job to live there.

Now that I live in Wisconsin and have no access to any AA archives, I spend most my time doing genealogy. With all of the tools available to me I have found a good deal about Irma Livoni and what I have found was as follows:

1910 US Census showed a Irma E Brown was born in Buckeye, Maricopa County, Arizona about 1907

1920 US Census showed a Irma E Brown age 12 was living in Maricopa County, Arizona

1930 US Census showed a Irma Edna Brown age 22, single and was living in Phoenix, Maricopa, Arizona -- occupation: stenographer

1930 US Census has Donald V Livoni was living with his uncle in Long Beach CA. (shows he was single)

1935 City Directory shows a V Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents - Irma E. listed as wife

1939 City Directory shows Donal Livoni living in Pasadena CA (no wife listed) 1940 City Directory shows a Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents (no wife listed)

1940 US Census shows an Irma Livoni as an inmate in the State Hospital for the Insane in Stockton California - marital status was single

1940 US Census shows a V D Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents - marital status was married (no wife listed)

1941 City Directory shows a Mary Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona at the same address as Don's parents (Mary is Don's 2nd wife)

1941 Feb World War II Army Enlistment of Donald V Livoni it listed him as married - No image was available, but I am sure Mary would be listed as his wife

1941 in a letter dated December 6, 1941 Irma Livoni is kicked out of AA

1943 California Marriage Certificate #12149 for a Irma E Livoni and a Harold Thompson Craig recorded in Marriage Book 1939 Page 65. Married June 2, 1943.
It showed this was a 2nd marriage for both parties, her maiden name was Brown and her occupation was bookkeeper. They were both living in Long Beach and were next door neighbors.

1947 City Directory shows a Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents with a new wife Mary Livoni

1956 California Death Index listed Harold T Craig born 7 Jul 1897in California died May 18 1956 in Los Angeles County. SSN 526-10-5776

1956 California Death Index listed Harold Thompson Craig, born 7 Jul 1897in California died May 18 1956 in Los Angeles County. SSN 526-10-5776

1969 Social Security Death Index shows Donald V. Livoni died Sept 4, 1969 in Orange Co. CA

1974 Social Security Death Indexshows Irma Craig, SSN 526-10-5776born 16 Aug

1907 died Aug 1974 and last known Residence was Long Beach CA

1974 California Death Index listed Irma E Craig born Aug 16, 1907 in Arizona died August 24, 1974 in Los Angeles County. SSN 561 12 4758

I found no children born to Irma from either marriage. I had requested a death certificate from the State of Calif for Irma E Craig almost a month ago, but haven 't yet received it. I also have requested marriage and divorce records from Arizona and I have not heard from the Superior Court of Maricopa County either. The State Hospital in Stockton California closed in 1995. Most of the patients ' records are housed in the State of California Archives in Sacramento. I contact the archives and was told state law requires that the records remain closed for a period of 75 years to protect the patient's rights. This time period will expire in 2 or 3 years and perhaps more info on Irma 's incarceration will be available at that time.

I am convinced this is the same person that is named in the December 1941 letter and also convinced she did not commit suicide over this matter unless it was 33 years after being ask to leave AA. At this point I am not even sure she died
drunk either. Once I get the death certificate I will let you know.

One sad note ..... I found her obituary in the Aug 26, 1974 Press-Telegram Long Beach, California. It read simply "CRAIG, Erma. Monttell Mortuary 436-2284." This mortuary has since merged with another. When I contacted them I was told they no longer had records going back to 1974. Then I described the obit to the director of the funeral home and was told this was normal for a person who died with no next of kin or anyone close to provide information for a proper obit.

As I get more info I will pass it on. Like so many of the myths in A.A. that are portrayed as fact, I hope this info might help to at least provide another theory on what might have really happen to Irma Livoni after she left AA and not what we think might have happen to her. It all comes down to the fact we do not know what really happen and it is better to admit we don't know than adding embellishments and pass them off as true facts.

I have copies of several items that are listed above including a photo of Irma E Brown when she was18 years old that I am willing to share. Just send me an email with "Irma Iivoni" in the subject field.

Hope you enjoy

Charles from Wisconsin

________________________________
>From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013
>Subject: Irma Livoni suicide
>
>Is there other corroboration to this story that committed suicide after receiving the letter kicking her out of AA? Jackie B. mentioned the story to me (she is the one who writes the good AA plays) and I found this one reference online:

http://www.scanneronline.org/2010/07/queers-crackpots-and-fallen-women.html

By Jim S on July 18, 2010

I had a discussion with Peter C. about a surprising direct link between the Third Tradition and the SCA [Sexual Compulsives Anonymous] program. Irma Livoni was an AA member, in Los Angeles, who was kicked out of that fellowship by a self-appointed group. Why? In a letter dated December 6, 1941 from the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, Irma was kicked out "for reasons which should be most apparent." According to Peter, she was sleeping around in AA. Sexually compulsive perhaps? She received her letter the on December 8, 1941 -- the day after Pearl Harbor. Los Angeles was totally blacked out because there was a real fear that the Japanese would attack the mainland. She's all alone. It's Christmas time. The end of the world and the only group that had offered any hope to Irma had just kicked her out. Much of this has been whitewashed on the internet sites but according to Peter, Irma went to the roof of her building and jumped to her death. Irma's sponsor in AA was Sybil Corwin. (Sybil is an important part of AA history herself) Sybil wrote to Bill W about the incident.
| 9232|9182|2013-05-21 09:40:05|Mr. Michael Duane Gwirtz|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
One correction on my initial post is that the group Tex Adams started was the "Hole in the Ground Group" which is still going strong. Thanks to Jerry L for reminding me. He thinks Cliff Walker's wife's name was Dorthea but I think it was Dorothy. Jerry is from the left coast so he may know better than I. If I'm feeling better later on I'll check Harry's disc's, or ... Maybe one of the grave finders on AAHL can help us with this one.
In Service
Shakey

On May 20, 2013, at 6:34 AM, Michael Gwirtz <shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote:

> Harry the wino .... has a lot of Sybil's letters pictures. Her letter to Bill W following the death of Tex Adams her brother and a member of the hole in the wall group, I believe, the 2nd LA group. Bob Corwin , one of Sybil's husbands , was Harry's sponsor before Frank Kell. Harry use to say Bob had glasses as thick as coca cola bottles and how he was fearful of driving on the freeways of LA with him. Frank' s sponsor was Cliff Walker. Harry would tell me that Bill W would stay at Cliff 's house when he would visit LA. Dorothy, Cliff's wife.
| 9233|9182|2013-05-21 14:26:10|Jim Weaver|Frank Kell|
Frank Kell's name caught my eye. Frank was well loved in our area. He and his wife Elaine were AA "royalty" around here ( district 49 - area 59 - northeast Pennsylvania). Frank is the one who sparked my interest in AA history. I recall Cliff W. traveling east for Frank's 40th anniversary. Probably been 8 - 10 years since Frank passed. His spirit and love for AA is still felt in these parts.

Jim W. Area 49 Archives

________________________________

Subject: Re: Irma Livoni suicide
From: Mr. Michael Duane Gwirtz <Shakey1aa@aol.com>
On May 20, 2013, at 6:34 AM, Michael Gwirtz wrote:

> Harry the wino .... has a lot of Sybil's letters pictures. Her letter to Bill W following the death of Tex Adams her brother and a member of the hole in the wall group, I believe, the 2nd LA group. Bob Corwin , one of Sybil's husbands , was Harry's sponsor before Frank Kell. Harry use to say Bob had glasses as thick as coca cola bottles and how he was fearful of driving on the freeways of LA with him. Frank' s sponsor was Cliff Walker. Harry would tell me that Bill W would stay at Cliff 's house when he would visit LA. Dorothy, Cliff's wife.
| 9234|9234|2013-05-22 09:57:08|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Success rate - Dr. Collier - in Big Book Appendix III|
Re message 357 et seq: I've just noticed that in appendix III in the Big Book Dr G. Kirby Collier, psychiatrist, observed "... any therapeutic or philosophic procedure which can prove a recovery rate of 50% to 60% must merit our consideration." When was that written? And was Collier quoting AA's own assessment or some independent survey?
| 9235|4845|2013-05-23 10:01:01|shakey|Re: Irma Livoni - woman kicked out of AA - died drunk|
In this old post Sybil tells a sponcee about the life and death of Irma L. It mentions no suicide only that Irma died drunk: "Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism" and "the face of a woman I never knew, who got kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died."

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

Patti
(paks68 at optonline.net) wrote:

Here is the story about Irma Livoni that some of you asked about. Each year around this time I try to tell this true story about what happened not just on Dec 7th 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the few women who was in AA at that time, and about a letter she received in the mail, on Monday, December 8th, which virtually kicked her out of AA. This is a long email, so read it when/if you have the time.

In Dec of 1984, I had been sober for 2-1/2 years, and working with my sponsors Bob and Sybil Corwin since Jan of 84. Sybil had gotten sober in March of 1941, so at the time she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home from a meeting and she asked me the date (to her it was just Sunday). I told her it was Dec 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.

She said "Matt, have I ever told you about Irma Livoni?"

"Nope, who is she?"

She said, "Well, when we get back to the house, come in for coffee and I'll tell you a story about AA history and some of the reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the way Matt, did you know that the literature specifically protects 'queers, plain crackpots, and fallen women,' and since you and I are at least two out of those three, we should be especially grateful for tradition 3? I'll show you it when we get home."

I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer, back before she got sober, you know one of those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well as an alcoholic back then, so the term "fallen woman" was something that hit close to home.

She had told me that it was very different back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be an alcoholic. Sybil said It was a time when women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable women" were not usually found in a bar, or at "whoopie parties."

Our Thursday night step study had voted to not cover the traditions after we got to step 12, so I figured they must not be very important and thought I'd probably be bored with the conversation, but she got my attention telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in for coffee.

Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I had been alive. I didn't argue with her very much.

Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She said, I want you to find the traditions in there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st edition Big Book. Thicker than mine.

I said, "Is this why they call it the Big Book?"

She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on big paper, with big margins around the type, so that people would think they were really getting something for their money."

I looked in the back of the book, where I thought the traditions were, but couldn't find them. "I can't find them, Sybil."

"Exactly. That's because we didn't have any traditions back in 1941 when I came in. And Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying itself, which is why we have traditions now." Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition and in my 12 & 12. I didn't read it all, just the caption heading, and then she started telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI.

Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also became a member in 1941, just after Sybil. Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me that many people's bottoms were very low then, no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing). Sybil said it was different then for a woman to be an alcoholic. That most of them had burned all their bridges with their families, and were looked down upon, even more so than male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first job in sobriety, and watched AA help Irma get her first apartment in sobriety.

Then she said that on Dec 5th, 1941 a self-appointed group of the members signed a letter to Irma & mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor, on that Friday, Dec 5th. Here is a copy of the letter:

-------------------------

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Post Office Box 607
Hollywood Station
Hollywood, California

December Fifth 1941

Irma Livoni
939 S. Gramercy Place
Los Angeles, California

Dear Mrs. Livoni:

At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your attendance at group meetings was no longer desired until certain explanations and plans for the future were made to the satisfaction of this committee. This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to yourself. It was decided that, should you so desire, you may appear before members of this committee and state your attitude. This opportunity will be afforded you between now and December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with us at the above address by that date.

In case you do not wish to appear, we shall consider the matter closed and that your membership is terminated.

Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group
Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al

-------------------------

I was stunned. "How could they do this, Sybil?"

"Because we didn't have any guidelines, any traditions to protect us from good intentions. AA was very new, and people did all sorts of things, thinking they were protecting the fellowship."

Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine my being in the following setting. Sybil explained that Dec 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor Day (a Sunday). She said that that Sunday night everyone in LA was afraid that Los Angeles would also be attacked and bombed. There was a citywide blackout, people were so terrified. She said that on Monday Dec 8th, President Rosevelt gave the speech that talked about "the date that will live in infamy" and that we were now at war with Japan and Germany.

She said, that was the day that Irma received her letter. There was only one meeting in the entire state of California when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December there may have been two or three, but Irma had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn to. No other Group in California that she could ask for help.

Sybil said, "Imagine only one or two meetings in your entire state, and being shunned by your family, and by society, and by the only group of people who were on your side, your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door on you and sending you such a letter, Matt."

I shivered at the thought of it. It was Christmas time, the stores were decorated and now poor Irma was all alone.

I thought about how it was in 1984 with 2000 meetings a week to choose from in Southern California. and then I imagined having no other help for a hopeless alcoholic.

Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism. She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I cannot tell you that this is the reason that the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition, but it certainly seems to apply.

From Tradition 3, page 141:

-------------------------

... that we would neither punish nor deprive any AA of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything? The answer, now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic's full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condem him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

-------------------------

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I remember looking at those words again and again, and they seemed to get larger and larger.

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I hadn't really noticed EXECUTIONER when I had read it the first time at my 12 & 12 study group. Again I felt so bad for this poor lady. Wow, those words really had a different meaning than when I had read the traditions before. So here it is, 23 years later, and each December 7th & 8th, I always think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am, that we have traditions now. I also think of how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.

Years later I realized how everything she ever taught me was like gold. But in 1984 I had no idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was to have her as my sponsor. She was like a piece of living history, but I really didn't realize how valuable that was in explaining WHY we do some of the things we do (like the story she told me about how they never said "Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then).

Besides being one of the first women in AA, Sybil was the first woman west of the Mississippi. She also became the head of LA's central office for 12 years, and she became close friends with Bill and Lois. She and Bob even used to go on vacation with them. She used to tell me all sorts of stories about Bill Wilson and things he said to her.

He was very interested in how AA would work for women, as there were very few women worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann came in before Sybil did, but very few stayed sober.

I learned that night that no one can get kicked out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk that he needs to settle down or we might have to ask him to step outside for that day, but we don't vote to kick anyone out forever. And we don't shun people because our guidelines, our traditions tell us that no one has to believe in anything (they don't have to be like me) and they don't have to conform to anything(they don't have to dress a certain way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything). Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome at any AA meeting.

So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be interested in knowing a bit about how and why the traditions got started. I think it sort of puts a face on tradition 3: the face of a woman I never knew, who got kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.

Thank God for Tradition 3, and thank God for all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish all the people in this group.

Best AA love to you all.

"God hasn't promised us tomorrow, but he has promised us eternity."
| 9236|9182|2013-05-23 10:03:54|Aalogsdon|Re: Irma Livoni suicide - Cliff Walker's wife|
Cliff Walker's Wife was named DOROTHE.

- - - -

From: Shakey Mike <Shakey1aa@aol.com>

Jerry L .... thinks Cliff Walker's wife's name was Dorthea but I think it was Dorothy. Jerry is from the left coast so he may know better than I.

- - - -

On May 20, 2013, Michael Gwirtz <shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote:

Harry the wino .... would tell me that Bill W would stay at Cliff 's house when he would visit LA. Dorothy, Cliff's wife.
| 9237|9237|2013-05-23 10:07:41|Charles Knapp|Re: Irma Livoni suicide - who were the men who wrote the letter?|
Cindy .... I know Mortimer Joseph, Frank Randall, Al Marineau all died sober, most if not all with close to 40 years.

A call to LA Central office turn up that Fay Loomis also died sober with about 15 or 16 years. He died some time around 1955.�And just for the record Fay Loomis was a male and not female.

There are a couple of web sites that have posted the transcript of the 1941 letter, that claim the executive committee was made up of 4 men and one woman. This is just not true.

I could not find any info on Edmund Jussen Jr.�It was thought he went to Texas with Roy Yeargan, but I found no proof.

As to how they guys became the executive committee, I do not know. I do know when Tex Adams started the Hole In The Ground Group there was a lot of panic and these same guys tried to incorporate AA�in LA but failed.

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: stalban2001 <stalban2001@yahoo.com> (stalban2001 at yahoo.com)

Thank you for your research. I have always been moved by the story of Irma Livoni and am gratified that AA's tradition of "no requirement for membership except the desire to stop drinking" was the result. But, yet I grieve for Irma L. and her uncertain fate. Who were the men who wrote the letter? Were they self-appointed? Did the speak for anyone but themselves? Did any of them, after acquiring more sobriety and a more spiritual outlook, ever express regrets or attempt to make amends? I'd love to hear a story of redemption out of this unhappy tale.
| 9238|9182|2013-05-23 10:19:44|Charles Knapp|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
Irma E Livoni died in Long Beach, which is in Los Angeles County.

Don V Livoni was also married when the 1940 US Census was taken and in 1941 when he entered the service in February 1941. I found no enlistment of Don in the Summer of 1941. Could you please supply me with that info so I might add it to my research?

Irma E Brown had 2 sisters Norma and Elsie. Could not find anything on what happen to Elsie. She must have dies young. Norma married Lloyd Robinson and they are both buried in The National Cemetery in Phoenix, Arizona. She also had 2 brothers Paul who married Francis Ruth Moore and George who married Helen Springer Meyer. I am not sure why her siblings matter but if you want their genealogy I can also provide that info as well. I have done all of Irma Edna Brown's family tree and I am satisfied I am not confusing her with Irma Mae Craig who was born in 1909.

I did hear back from the Clerk of Superior Court of Maricopa County. Because I do no have a date for the marriage or divorce of Donald and Irma Livoni it will cost $27 per year for the Clerk to do the research. That is a fee I can not afford, but trying other ways to get the research done cheaper.

Will keep the group updated

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

Message #9231 from : < jlobdell54@hotmail.com> Mon May 20, 2013

Irma Edna Brown is recorded as having died in Los Angeles or Long Beach 15 Aug 1974 aged 67. Donald V. Livoni was married when he entered the service in Summer 1941. He died aged 60 in CA in 1969.

The difficulty is that Irma Edna Brown's SSDI and California Death listings are both under Irma Edna Craig, who seems otherwise to be confused with an Irma Mae Craig b. 1909.

Btw Irma had a sister Norma who lived longer -- both of them are shown in a photo in the Maricopa H S Yearbook for 1925.

There is no death record, so far as anyone knows, for Irma Edna Brown [b. Arizona Territory 1907] or Irma Livoni.

- - - -

Message #9228 from <cpknapp@yahoo.com> Sun May 19, 2013

Hello

I would not be so quick to rule Irma Livoni's death a suicide. I lived in Southern California for nearly 20 years, 12 of which I served as Mid Southern California Area 9 Archivist. I was there same time Harry the Wino was there and he introduce me to many of the longtimers including Sybil. She told me the same story about Irma and I can remember hearing her tell it at least 2 other times. Not once did I hear Sybil say Irma committed suicide. She always said she "died drunk." I believe had Irma committed suicide Sybil would have included this information in the story if only to drive home the point that there were grave consequences of this committees actions.

While in So Cal I tried to find out what ever happen to her. No one I ever spoke with could tell me anything about her after she left AA. I use the LA Public Library and search their data base of newspapers and could never find an obituary or any articles that had the name Irma Livoni. I got some conflicting info about her as well. I heard she was single, married and even divorced. I was told she was a waitress, a secretary and was told she worked in the shipyards in Long Beach. Sybil said she was a divorced book keeper.

When I ask why Irma was being kicked out, all Sybil would say is "she wasn't very lady like." She came to meetings all dressed up and turning heads and lots of flirting. She also added that it was partly the insistence of the jealous wives of the members that help to get Irma banned from AA. Remember there were only a hand full of females in all of AA and maybe only 4 or 5 in Southern California in 1941.

As far as the letter goes, I actually saw a carbon copy of this letter in the LA Central Office Archives. The carbon copy was not on letterhead but was on thin yellow paper....almost like tissue paper. The one floating around So Cal I believe is a "reproduction" that the Southern California Area 5 Archives Committee created sometime in the 1970's. The font on these copies is consistent with an IBM Select II typewriter and not the font from any 1941 vintages manual typewriter. If a real copy does exist it would be great if it could be scanned and put on line instead of just a transcript of this letter.

The address on the letter, 939 S. Gramercy Place, is located in Central Los Angles, Wilshire district to be more exact. In 1941 Central LA was a very nice area of town. The address is a four story apartment building with about 30 apartments. It was built in the 1920's and is still standing. I believe she would have to had a pretty good job to live there.

Now that I live in Wisconsin and have no access to any AA archives, I spend most my time doing genealogy. With all of the tools available to me I have found a good deal about Irma Livoni and what I have found was as follows:

1910 US Census showed a Irma E Brown was born in Buckeye, Maricopa County, Arizona about 1907

1920 US Census showed a Irma E Brown age 12 was living in Maricopa County, Arizona

1930 US Census showed a Irma Edna Brown age 22, single and was living in Phoenix, Maricopa, Arizona -- occupation: stenographer

1930 US Census has Donald V Livoni was living with his uncle in Long Beach CA. (shows he was single)

1935 City Directory shows a V Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents - Irma E. listed as wife

1939 City Directory shows Donal Livoni living in Pasadena CA (no wife listed) 1940 City Directory shows a Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents (no wife listed)

1940 US Census shows an Irma Livoni as an inmate in the State Hospital for the Insane in Stockton California - marital status was single

1940 US Census shows a V D Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents - marital status was married (no wife listed)

1941 City Directory shows a Mary Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona at the same address as Don's parents (Mary is Don's 2nd wife)

1941 Feb World War II Army Enlistment of Donald V Livoni it listed him as married - No image was available, but I am sure Mary would be listed as his wife

1941 in a letter dated December 6, 1941 Irma Livoni is kicked out of AA

1943 California Marriage Certificate #12149 for a Irma E Livoni and a Harold Thompson Craig recorded in Marriage Book 1939 Page 65. Married June 2, 1943.
It showed this was a 2nd marriage for both parties, her maiden name was Brown and her occupation was bookkeeper. They were both living in Long Beach and were next door neighbors.

1947 City Directory shows a Don Livoni living in Phoenix, Arizona with his parents with a new wife Mary Livoni

1956 California Death Index listed Harold T Craig born 7 Jul 1897in California died May 18 1956 in Los Angeles County. SSN 526-10-5776

1956 California Death Index listed Harold Thompson Craig, born 7 Jul 1897in California died May 18 1956 in Los Angeles County. SSN 526-10-5776

1969 Social Security Death Index shows Donald V. Livoni died Sept 4, 1969 in Orange Co. CA

1974 Social Security Death Indexshows Irma Craig, SSN 526-10-5776born 16 Aug

1907 died Aug 1974 and last known Residence was Long Beach CA

1974 California Death Index listed Irma E Craig born Aug 16, 1907 in Arizona died August 24, 1974 in Los Angeles County. SSN 561 12 4758

I found no children born to Irma from either marriage. I had requested a death certificate from the State of Calif for Irma E Craig almost a month ago, but haven 't yet received it. I also have requested marriage and divorce records from Arizona and I have not heard from the Superior Court of Maricopa County either. The State Hospital in Stockton California closed in 1995. Most of the patients ' records are housed in the State of California Archives in Sacramento. I contact the archives and was told state law requires that the records remain closed for a period of 75 years to protect the patient's rights. This time period will expire in 2 or 3 years and perhaps more info on Irma 's incarceration will be available at that time.

I am convinced this is the same person that is named in the December 1941 letter and also convinced she did not commit suicide over this matter unless it was 33 years after being ask to leave AA. At this point I am not even sure she died
drunk either. Once I get the death certificate I will let you know.

One sad note ..... I found her obituary in the Aug 26, 1974 Press-Telegram Long Beach, California. It read simply "CRAIG, Erma. Monttell Mortuary 436-2284." This mortuary has since merged with another. When I contacted them I was told they no longer had records going back to 1974. Then I described the obit to the director of the funeral home and was told this was normal for a person who died with no next of kin or anyone close to provide information for a proper obit.

As I get more info I will pass it on. Like so many of the myths in A.A. that are portrayed as fact, I hope this info might help to at least provide another theory on what might have really happen to Irma Livoni after she left AA and not what we think might have happen to her. It all comes down to the fact we do not know what really happen and it is better to admit we don't know than adding embellishments and pass them off as true facts.

I have copies of several items that are listed above including a photo of Irma E Brown when she was18 years old that I am willing to share. Just send me an email with "Irma Iivoni" in the subject field.

Hope you enjoy

Charles from Wisconsin
| 9239|9182|2013-05-24 08:31:28|Abd ul-Rahman Lomax|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
Excellent research by Charles Knapp, establishing with high probability that Irma Livoni died as Irma Craig, age 67, in 1974, about 33 years after the incident. That's not bad for the survival of an alcoholic. She may have found another way, some always have. Maybe she was so mad about what happened to her that she proclaimed she'd stay sober no matter what those ****s thought, who needs them? Many people die with those words, but some don't. Sometimes it creates a strong motivation, and Higher Power isn't stingy.

This is the bottom line: no evidence has been uncovered that Irma Livoni died from alcoholism or committed suicide. The origin of the story is pretty obvious. She *could* have died in one of those ways, and someone, somewhere said that, someone else heard it and it was translated into a fact, perhaps first as "died drunk" and then as "committed suicide." These kinds of iscommunications happen all the time. We tend to believe what we hear, it's normal. And we tend to remember, not what we heard, often, but what we made it mean.

The Irma Livioni story remains a caution even if the "suicide" or "died drunk" stories are not true. People *do* die when kicked out of meetings, that's almost certain to happen sometimes. The lesson learned was valuable, even if it was accompanied by a myth.

Charles, I don't think the dates of marriage and divorce are particularly important, not worth spending much money on. That Irma was a divorcee is plausible from what we do know, and also could explain some of what was thought about her, after all, "we all know about divorcees."
| 9240|9201|2013-05-24 09:13:28|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
From: James E Williams <jamesewilliams@suddenlink.net>
(jamesewilliams at suddenlink.net)

He was not.

My source is the man himself.

I have been sober for 32 years, I sobered up in Castleberry at the Rebos Club, Clarence was my grandsponsor. He also 12th stepped me. I have been to his house several times and to meetings with him.

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

James Williams (above) tells us that he got sober c. 1981, at the REBOS CLUB, which is a recovery clubhouse at 130 Normandy Rd, Casselberry, Florida 32707 (a little north of Orlando).

That was the town that Clarence Snyder lived in at the end of his life:

Clarence Snyder, born December 26, 1902, in Cleveland, Ohio. He had his last drink on February 11, 1938. He and his first wife Dorothy were divorced before Clarence went into the Army in 1942. He was stationed at Fort Knox, near Louisville, Kentucky, from 1942 to 1943. After Clarence left the army, he returned to Cleveland, and married his second wife, Selma Kitterer. Clarence and Selma moved to St. Petersburg, Florida. Eventually they divorced. Clarence then married his third wife, Grace, and they lived at 142 S. Lake Triplet Drive in Casselberry, Florida (in central Florida, a little north of Orlando) until his death on March 22, 1984.
| 9241|9201|2013-05-25 07:47:50|James Bliss|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
I seem to be the trouble maker on here. But...

James, could you please provide some context for when and how you were told this? Was it during one of Clarence's talks or was this on a person to person basis. Just hoping to put a firm context as to when (if possible) and how this was communicated to you from Clarence.

Thanks,

Jim

___________________________________________
Original Message from: James E Williams
<jamesewilliams@suddenlink.net>
(jamesewilliams at suddenlink.net)

He was not.

My source is the man himself.

I have been sober for 32 years, I sobered up in Castleberry at the Rebos Club, Clarence was my grandsponsor. He also 12th stepped me. I have been to his house several times and to meetings with him.

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

James Williams (above) tells us that he got sober c. 1981, at the REBOS CLUB, which is a recovery clubhouse at 130 Normandy Rd, Casselberry, Florida 32707 (a little north of Orlando).

That was the town that Clarence Snyder lived in at the end of his life:

Clarence Snyder, born December 26, 1902, in Cleveland, Ohio. He had his last drink on February 11, 1938. He and his first wife Dorothy were divorced before Clarence went into the Army in 1942. He was stationed at Fort Knox, near Louisville, Kentucky, from 1942 to 1943. After Clarence left the army, he returned to Cleveland, and married his second wife, Selma Kitterer. Clarence and Selma moved to St. Petersburg, Florida. Eventually they divorced. Clarence then married his third wife, Grace, and they lived at 142 S. Lake Triplet Drive in Casselberry, Florida (in central Florida, a little north of Orlando) until his death on March 22, 1984.
| 9242|9182|2013-05-25 08:00:31|planternva2000|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
From Planternva2000 and "David" (Inkman3)

- - - -

From: <planternva2000@yahoo.com> (planternva2000 at yahoo.com)

Sybil spoke on the development of the Twelve Traditions in Laguna Beach, CA in 1980. a copy of her talk can be downloaded from the x-aa speakers site. I find it odd that she talked of some who were expelled or threatened with expulsion from AA for one reason or another, but made no mention of Irma Livoni. One would think this case would be a perfect example of the reason for Tradition Three.

- - - -

From: "David" <Inkman3@webtv.net> (Inkman3 at webtv.net)

This story related by Sybil is an interesting tale and a piece of AA history that I, being from the east coast have not heard. However it leaves me with many questions. If Irma was indeed thrown out of AA as opposed to the L.A. Group Why didn't the letter come from AA "headquarters" in New York? Why was it not signed by Bill W. and/or Dr. Bob S.? If Sybil was such good friends with Bill W. Why didn't she write him and ask his opinion of how her sponsee had been treated? This being a history site I wonder why these were not explored.

Dave L.
| 9243|9243|2013-05-27 08:22:17|jamesberke|Off Topic: Alcohol Support Group Research Survey|
Greetings All,

I am a new-time member of this group and recovering alcoholic. I have been working toward nearly 4 years clean and sober. A while back, I decided to channel my energies into more productive pursuits and went back to school. I am in the final stages of my doctoral work and would appreciate your help.

I am looking for participants to complete a survey in furtherance of this goal. This research project investigates the support group experiences of fellow alcoholics, is approved and supported by the University of California Santa Barbara, and is available at the following link:

https://edu.surveygizmo.com/s3/1264635/Online-and-Offline-Venues-of-Social-Support2

I hope you are able to help.

___________________________________________

FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: compare a similar sort of book (published six years ago) from a sociologist with a Ph.D. from the University of California San Diego, who taught in the San Diego State University School of Social Work.

Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works, December 2007.

Using qualitative field study, including participant observation and unstructured interviewing, this work focuses on Alcoholics Anonymous as a social world. The social organization of A.A. is linked to social world constructs, and aspects of A.A. social life, both formal and informal, are described. It is suggested that success in A.A. is dependent on integration into the social world, and that there are variations in the interactional processes by which this is achieved.

Data is presented to illustrate that integration into the social world leads to the A.A. conversion, a transformation of self-identity in which the alcoholic accepts at the deepest level of being that he or she is alcoholic and that recovery depends on the acceptance of A.A. values and practice of A.A. principles. A typology of A.A. social world participants is established which is informed by high or low levels of affiliative needs and group dependency, group- versus individual-focused social world participation, and affective versus cognitive conversion experiences.

http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html

http://www.amazon.com/The-Social-World-Alcoholics-Anonymous/dp/0595476929

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/social-world-of-alcoholics-anonymous-annette-r-smith/1009071028?ean=9780595476923
| 9244|9182|2013-05-27 08:56:49|Abd ul-Rahman Lomax|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
From Abd ul-Rahman Lomax, Jon Markle, Baileygc23, and Charles Knapp

- - - -

From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <abd@lomaxdesign.com>
(abd at lomaxdesign.com)

She was not thrown out of AA, though she might have taken the rejection that way. If Sybil continued to stand for her, if she allowed that, she was still a part of the fellowship, and no local committee had the power to exclude anyone from AA. AA Headquarters or Bill W. may have been able to accomplish it, but probably would not have gone there, even then.

There is nothing in the evidence we have seen that indicated this was some AA general consensus. It was a local committee making a local decision. It seemed like a good idea to them at the time, to protect certain meetings. That can still happen and does happen, I've seen it happen. It may even be that sometimes a problem with a local meeting is communicated to an intergroup (I have no experience with AA intergroup, my deeper experience is with other 12-step fellowships), but that would be rare, and it would more be a matter of individuals talking to individuals.

I've seen a person be ejected from a meeting, and a member of the meeting volunteered to go outside and sit with the person and talk. The group conscience was clearly concerned for the person, even though he was being highly disruptive, making some people in the meeting feel unsafe.

It would be very interesting to know what Sybil actually did, whether or not Sybil had continued contact with Irma.

One of the most interesting aspects of the story is that Irma was blamed, she was the "bad" one. What about the 13th-steppers who were probably quite eager to "help" her? That's a real issue, and it continues today. It may be unavoidable, but it can be ameliorated by the same mechanisms that developed the AA consensus: open sharing, honesty, and trust in a higher power. 13th stepping, as a problem, thrives in nobody talking about it.

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <jon.markle@mac.com>
(jon.markle at mac.com)

Pardon me if I did not see or have overlooked the answer, but, has it been established yet just exactly what were the facts of the cause of that letter to Irma? What were her transgressions that incurred the wrath of those AA's? So serious that they could not abide her as a member? Do we know?

On a personal note, I have read here and other places about clubhouses and even some groups where there are strict rules, especially dress codes, by which members must abide. I'm grateful not to be anywhere around where those clubs or groups are. I'm afraid I'd go, just to get kicked out so I could wear that badge! LOL

Thanks,

Jon Markle
Raleigh, NC
9.9.82

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Bill W had said that each group has the right to be wrong. He also said that individuals could find a more congenial group or start a group of their own. The modern era seems to find a great amount of guilt by association going around with people being abused because they did not understand what was going on around them. I have seen communications made with AA about individual groups actions over the years and AA seemed to respond that they could not force a group to do it AA's way.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
(cpknapp at yahoo.com)

First let me say I am sure something like this happen in many groups when AA was new. Members with the very best of intentions trying to keep AA as pure as they knew how. They were so scare that if something would happen to upset their form of AA there would be no hope left for them. Not only were they will to do anything to stay sober they also were willing to do anything to keep AA pure including asking members they didn't think fit in to leave.

Why didn't a letter come from New York? Even today GSO would only offer suggestions on how to handle group situations and would stay out of local problems. As for Sybil, she was only 9 months sober at the time. I really doubt she had time to form a friendship with Bill. Remember it was December 1941. The New York office had only been in it's Vessy Street location for about a year. The Big Book was just shy of three years old. Bill's first visit to LA was earlier that same year, April of 1941. The first meeting in LA was held just 2 years earlier, December 19, 1939. AA in LA was still in its infancy and AA as a whole wasn't even in its "teenage" years. AA everywhere was going through growing pains, not just LA. If not the 3rd Tradition would look very different today.

What does the other group members think?

Charles from Wisconsin

________________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM:
"David" <Inkman3@webtv.net> (Inkman3 at webtv.net)

This story related by Sybil is an interesting tale and a piece of AA history that I, being from the east coast have not heard. However it leaves me with many questions. If Irma was indeed thrown out of AA as opposed to the L.A. Group Why didn't the letter come from AA "headquarters" in New York? Why was it not signed by Bill W. and/or Dr. Bob S.? If Sybil was such good friends with Bill W. Why didn't she write him and ask his opinion of how her sponsee had been treated? This being a history site I wonder why these were not explored.
| 9245|9201|2013-05-27 09:08:43|Tom Hickcox|Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?|
Note to James Williams: There are two problems here for historians. One is your memory for details on something that happened thirty years ago. Unless you wrote this down at the time and can provide it now, the credibility is about a three on a scale of five. I can say that I recently attended my 50th college reunion and my memory about a number of things was at odds with a number of my classmates.

The second is the credibility of Clarence himself. He was a complex
character.

You can assert all you want to, but it is up to historians to assign credibility. Most of us remember the adage "It has to be true. I heard it in an A.A. meeting." (Tongue very firmly in cheek.)

Tommy H in Danville

___________________________________________
On 5/24/2013 14:03, James Bliss asked James Williams:

I seem to be the trouble maker on here. But...

James [Williams], could you please provide some context for when and how you were told this? Was it during one of Clarence's talks or was this on a person to person basis. Just hoping to put a firm context as to when (if possible) and how this was communicated to you from Clarence.

Thanks,

Jim [Bliss]

___________________________________________
> Original Message from: James E Williams
> <jamesewilliams@suddenlink.net>
> (jamesewilliams at suddenlink.net)
>
> He was not.
>
> My source is the man himself.
>
> I have been sober for 32 years, I sobered up in Castleberry at the Rebos Club, Clarence was my grandsponsor. He also 12th stepped me. I have been to his house several times and to meetings with him.
| 9246|9182|2013-05-28 07:03:57|John Moore|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
AA in Los Angeles was started late in 1939 and Sybil came in 1941. There were no other AA groups west of the Mississippi River at that time. The Mother Group in L.A. was getting established and there were five AA men from that group who signed the letter. Sybil has stated that Mort J was the leader, he was authoritarian in how he ran the group, and whatever he said was the final word. Unlike today, you could not just go to the next town and join some other group. There weren't any other groups.

When Irma got the letter stating that if she did not appear before the AA executive committee within a certain number of days, that her membership was considered terminated, then yes in my opinion she was thrown out of AA; it was the only AA in existence for some 2,000 miles. I am pretty sure the leadership of AA in Los Angeles felt that they were within their rights to take this action and I doubt that any of them felt that they needed to consult with Bill W or the NY office about it.

This kind of action today would be unthinkable, yet it is understandable in the wild days before our AA traditions were in place.

John M
| 9247|9182|2013-05-28 12:56:55|Bruce Kennedy|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
One correction: The first AA group on the West Coast held its inaugural meeting in early December, 1939 at 51 Potomac St. in San Francisco. There is a plaque on the post outside that home commemorating the event. AA in the Bay Area has continued, uninterrrupted, since that time.

Bruce


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Moore wrote:
>
> AA in Los Angeles was started late in 1939 and Sybil came in 1941. There were no other AA groups west of the Mississippi River at that time. The Mother Group in L.A. was getting established and there were five AA men from that group who signed the letter. Sybil has stated that Mort J was the leader, he was authoritarian in how he ran the group, and whatever he said was the final word. Unlike today, you could not just go to the next town and join some other group. There weren't any other groups.
>
> When Irma got the letter stating that if she did not appear before the AA executive committee within a certain number of days, that her membership was considered terminated, then yes in my opinion she was thrown out of AA; it was the only AA in existence for some 2,000 miles. I am pretty sure the leadership of AA in Los Angeles felt that they were within their rights to take this action and I doubt that any of them felt that they needed to consult with Bill W or the NY office about it.
>
> This kind of action today would be unthinkable, yet it is understandable in the wild days before our AA traditions were in place.
>
> John M
>
| 9248|9182|2013-05-28 12:57:49|ricktompkins|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
With all these posts, none have determined why the woman was deemed "unfit" to be a member of the 'Mother Group.'

A lot of speculation here over the past 30 posts, but we at least know she did not commit suicide (with no record of Sybil sharing this rumor) unless someone else surmised her return to terminal alcoholism a suicide. Any facts, verbal, or paper trail on the reason she was "thrown out" of the group?

Rick, Illinois
| 9249|9182|2013-05-29 07:41:10|Jim M|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
I do not have much on Irma Livoni, but the following is what I do have. I do not know if this will help or not - but never the less, here it is: 
 
The Story of Irma Livoni

As related by Matt M., a sponsee of Sybil C.
(I heard a shorter version from Sybil about December 1976)

Here is the story about Irma Livoni. Each year around this time I try to tell this true story about what happened not just on Dec. 7th, 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day), but what happened to one of the few women who was in AA at that time, and about a letter she received in the mail, on Monday, December 8th, which virtually kicked her out of AA...... In Dec of 1984, I had been sober for 2-1/2 years, and working with my sponsors Bob and Sybil Corwin since January of 84. Sybil had gotten sober in March of 1941, so at the time she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home from a meeting and she asked me the date (to her it was just Sunday). I told her it was Dec. 8th, and that yesterday (Dec. 7th)
was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.
She said "Matt, have I ever told you about Irma Livoni?"
"Nope, who is she?"
She said, "Well, when we get back to the house, come in for coffee and I'll tell you a story about AA history and some of the reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the way Matt, did you know that the literature specifically protects 'queers, plain crackpots, and fallen women, and since you and I are at least two out of those three, we should be especially grateful for tradition 3? I'll show you it when we get home."
I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer, back before she got sober, you know one of those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well as an alcoholic back then, so the term "fallen woman" was something that hit close to home. She had told me that it was very different back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be an alcoholic. Sybil said It was a time when women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable women" were not usually found in a bar, or at "whoopie parties."
Our Thursday night step study had voted to not cover the traditions after we got to step 12, so I figured they must not be very important and thought I'd probably be bored with the conversation, but she got my attention telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in for coffee. Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I had been alive. I didn't argue with her very much.
Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She said, I want you to find the traditions in there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st. Edition Big Book. Thicker than mine. I said, "Is this why they call it the Big Book?" She said, "Exactly, Bill had it printed on big paper, with big margins around the type, so that people would think they were really getting something for their money." I looked in the back of the book, where I thought the traditions were, but couldn't find them. "I can't find them, Sybil." "Exactly. That's because we didn't have any traditions back in 1941 when I came in. And Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying itself, which is why we have traditions now." Then she had me
find them in my 3rd. Edition B.B. and in my 12 &12. I didn't read it all, just the caption heading, and then she started telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI....
Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also became a member in 1941, just after Sybil. Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me that many people's bottoms were very low then, no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing). Sybil said it was different then for a woman to be an alcoholic. That most of them had burned all their bridges with their families, and were looked down upon, even more so than male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first job in sobriety, and watched AA help Irma get her first apartment in sobriety. Then she said that on Dec. 5th, 1941, a self-appointed group of the members signed a letter to Irma and mailed
it on that Friday, Dec 5th, 2 days before Pearl Harbor.
Here is a copy of the letter:
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Post Office Box 607
Hollywood Station,
Hollywood, California
December Fifth, 1941

Irma Livoni
                            939 S. Gramercy Place
Los Angeles, California
Dear Mrs. Livoni:
At a meeting of the Executive Committee of  the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your attendance at group meetings was no longer desired until certain explanations and plans for the future were made to the satisfaction of this committee. This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to yourself.
It was decided that, should you so desire, you may appear before members of this committee and state your attitude. This opportunity will be afforded you between now and December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with us at the above address by that date. In case you do not wish to appear, we shall consider the matter closed and that your membership is terminated.

                            ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, Los Angeles Group
Mortimer Joseph
Frank Randall
Edmund Jussen Jr
Fay D. Loomis
Al Marineau

I was stunned. "How could they do this, Sybil?"
"Because we didn't have any guidelines, any traditions to protect us from good intentions. AA was very new, and people did all sorts of things, thinking they were protecting the fellowship."
Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine my being in the following setting. Sybil explained that Dec. 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor Day (a Sunday). She said that that Sunday night everyone in LA was afraid that Los Angeles would also be attacked and bombed. There was a citywide blackout, people were so terrified. She said that on Monday Dec. 8th., President Roosevelt gave the speech that talked about "the date that will live in infamy" and that we were now at war with Japan and Germany.
She said, that was the day that Irma received her letter. There was only one meeting in the entire state of California when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December there may have been two or three, but Irma had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn to. No other group in California that she could ask for help. Sybil said, "Imagine only one or two meetings in your entire state, and being shunned by your family, and by society, and by the only group of people who were on your side, your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door on you and sending you such a letter, Matt." I shivered at the thought of it. It was Christmas time, the stores were decorated and now poor Irma was all alone. I thought about
how it was in 1984 with 2000 meetings a week to choose from in Southern California. and then I imagined having no other help for a hopeless alcoholic.
Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism. She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I cannot tell you that this is the reason that the following is a part of the 3rd. Tradition, but it certainly seems to apply.
From Tradition 3, page 141: ... that we would neither punish nor deprive any AA of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything? The answer, now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic's full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condem him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"
JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER... I remember looking at those words again and again, and they seemed to get larger and larger.
JUDGE, JURYAND EXECUTIONER,
JUDGE, JURYAND EXECUTIONER,
JUDGE, JURYAND EXECUTIONER,
I hadn't really noticed EXECUTIONER when I had read it the first time at my 12 &12 study group. Again I felt so bad for this poor lady.
Wow, those words really had a different meaning than when I had read the traditions before. So here it is, 23 years later, and each December 7th and 8th I always think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am, that we have traditions now. I also think of how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.
Years later I realized how everything she ever taught me was like gold. But in 1984 I had no idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was to have her as my sponsor. She was like a piece of living history, but I really didn't realize how valuable that was in explaining WHY we do some of the things we do (like the story she told me about how they never said "Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then). Besides being one of the first women in AA, Sybil was the first woman west of the Mississippi. She also became the head of LA's central office for 12 years, and she became close friends with Bill and Lois. She and Bob even used to go on vacation with them. She used
to tell me all sorts of stories about Bill Wilson and things he said to her. He was very interested in how AA would work for women, as there were very few women worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann came in before Sybil did, but very few stayed sober....
I learned that night that no one can get kicked out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk that he needs to settle down or we might have to ask him to step outside for that day, but we don't vote to kick anyone out forever. And we don't shun people because our guidelines, our traditions tell us that no one has to believe in anything (they don't have to be like me) and they don't have to conform to anything(they don't have to dress a certain way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything). Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome at any AA meeting.....
So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be interested in knowing a bit about how and why the traditions got started. I think it sort of puts a face on tradition 3: the face of a woman I never knew, who got kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.....
Thank God for Tradition 3, and thank God for all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish all the people in this group.
 
Best AA love to you all,
Matt.

 
 
Yours in service,
Warmest regards,
Jim M.
| 9250|9182|2013-05-29 07:44:17|gcb900|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
In 1980, they tried to throw me out of a meeting. I told them they could not throw me out as I did not vote to throw me out. They dumped the coffee pot, and I found out they went to another room and started a new meeting. I gave up. I did not realize they were talking for themselves and not for AA. If it wasn't for one of the people talking to me over the later months, I would have stayed away from AA for good. I did stay away for almost two months, and was talked into going to a different meeting by a person with about four month's sobriety. I never went back to that meeting or to the other local meeting that a lot of the members also attended. Over the years I realized that the other groups in the local area considered that group as a hard group. So the actions of the Los Angeles group does not surprise me. But their leaving a paper trail does.
| 9251|9251|2013-05-29 19:06:06|Glenn Chesnut|Father Ed Dowling: dates|
Ernie Kurtz and Frank Nyikos both spotted a mistake I made in describing the birth order of Father Ed Dowling and his brothers and sisters, and in re-checking all my sources for that paragraph, I also discovered a second correction that needs to be made.

This is the long piece on Father Ed Dowling and his relationship with Bill Wilson:

http://hindsfoot.org/inProgr.html
http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.pdf
http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

The correct birth order of the five children ought to be: (1) Ed, (2) Anna, (3) James, (4) Paul, (5) Mary.

I also discovered that the date which has usually been given for Father Ed's death (April 3, 1960) was apparently not his death date, but the date of his burial. He died on March 30, 1960 according to the researcher who checked out his gravesite for Find a Grave, "Rev Edward Patrick Dowling," see
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=16958125

I think I've now got it right, but I would appreciate it if our experts on dates in AA history would go through this paragraph with a fine toothed comb, and check all my statements and dates, to make sure that I have not let any other errors creep in. I want to make sure this material is accurate before it gets published in book form:

=============================================
NEW CORRECTED VERSION:

There were five children in all: Father Ed (Sept. 1, 1898 - Mar. 30, 1960) was the oldest. His sister Anna (Nov. 21, 1899 - March, 1980), the second oldest, never married and took care of Father Ed at the end of his life when he was left blind and severely crippled from arthritis; she acted as his reader and his secretary, and traveled with him. The next child James was born in 1903 and died in October 1918 at the young age of fifteen while he was a student at St. Mary's College in Kansas, a victim of the great Influenza Pandemic of 1918-1919. The next-to-youngest child, Paul Vincent Dowling (May 12, 1905 - Nov. 10, 1955), tried the Jesuit novitiate but decided not to stay, and became a newspaper reporter. In 1939 he married Beatrice F. (1909-2003), they had two children (Paul and Mary), and then he died at the young age of fifty while his children were still not out of their teens. Beatrice however survived down to almost her ninety-fourth birthday. The youngest child Mary (Feb. 17, 1907 - Dec. 16, 1976), became a Religious of the Sacred Heart and librarian at Maryville College. This institution was originally located in south St. Louis, but in 1961 moved to a new campus over on the far west side of St. Louis, and is now called Maryville University. Mary and Anna established the Dowling Archives at the new campus, a collection of material which is important for Father Dowling studies: nearly all of the surviving letters between him and Bill Wilson are preserved there.*

*Fitzgerald, Soul of Sponsorship xiii and 14. Fitzgerald seems to have had erroneous information about Anna's birthdate: he said that she was three years younger than Fr. Ed, but the dates on her grave indicate that she was not much more than a year younger (Ed born Sept. 1, 1898 and Anna born Nov. 21, 1899), see Find a Grave, "Anna Dowling," at http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Dowling&GSiman=1&GScid=27890&GRid=51002606& . Many later historical accounts give an erroneous date (April 3, 1960) for Father Dowling's death -- but that was the date of his burial, not his death -- he actually died on March 30, 1960, see Find a Grave, "Rev Edward Patrick Dowling," at http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=16958125 . See also Find a Grave, "Mary Dowling," available online at http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Dowling&GSiman=1&GScid=27890&GRid=51003507& ; Find a Grave, "Paul Vincent Dowling," at http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=51000982 ; Find a Grave, "Beatrice F. Dowling," at http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=48185876

=============================================

=============================================
OLD UNCORRECTED VERSION:

There were five children in all: the oldest child Anna (Nov. 21, 1899 - March, 1980) never married and took care of Father Ed at the end of his life when he was left blind and severely crippled from arthritis; she acted as his reader and his secretary, and traveled with him. Father Ed (Sept. 1, 1898 - April 3, 1960) was the second oldest. The next child James was born in 1903 and died in October 1918 at the young age of fifteen while he was a student at St. Mary's College in Kansas, a victim of the great Influenza Pandemic of 1918-1919. The next-to-youngest child, Mary (Feb. 17, 1907 - Dec. 16, 1976), became a Religious of the Sacred Heart and librarian at Maryville College. This institution was originally located in south St. Louis, but in 1961 moved to a new campus over on the far west side of St. Louis, and is now called Maryville University. Mary and Anna established the Dowling Archives at the new campus, a collection of material which is important for Father Dowling studies: nearly all of the surviving letters between him and Bill Wilson are preserved there. Paul Vincent Dowling (May 12, 1905 - Nov. 10, 1955), the youngest child, tried the Jesuit novitiate but decided not to stay, and became a newspaper reporter. In 1939 he married Beatrice F. (1909-2003), they had two children (Paul and Mary), and then he died at the young age of fifty, while his children were still not out of their teens. Beatrice however survived down to almost her ninety-fourth birthday.*

*Fitzgerald, Soul of Sponsorship xiii and 14. Fitzgerald seems to have had erroneous information about Anna's birthdate: he said that she was three years younger than Fr. Ed, but the dates on her grave indicate that she was a little over nine and a half months older than him, see Find a Grave, "Anna Dowling," at
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Dowling&GSiman=1&GScid=27890&GRid=51002606&
; Find a Grave, "Mary Dowling," available online at
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Dowling&GSiman=1&GScid=27890&GRid=51003507&
; Find a Grave, "Paul Vincent Dowling," at
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=51000982 ; Find a Grave, "Beatrice F. Dowling," at
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=48185876
=============================================
| 9252|9251|2013-05-31 10:48:57|brian koch|Re: Father Ed Dowling: dates|
Father Dowling's obituary appears in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch April 4th, 1960, a Monday, with the heading "Father Dowling Dies On Weekend Visit in Memphis". I have a copy of this obituary. "Father Dowling, who was 61 years old, died yesterday in Memphis Tenn. He had been under treatment for a heart ailment for four years."

This would make the date of death 3 April 1960. 30 March was a Wednesday, and fell during the week before this trip.

While I was locating his burial site, which originally was in St. Stanislaus Cemetery in Florissant, Missouri, until he was moved to Calvary Cemetery in St.Louis, when the Jesuit Ministry closed their St. Stanislaus location, selling the land to highway developers, Calvary just listed burial dates as the dates of death during this transition. His age is also listed as 999, a wee bit old I think, as a default for Calvary Cemetery, again based on lack of information they possessed at the time of the move.

I will submit the correction to find-a-grave.

Blessings,

Brian
| 9253|9251|2013-05-31 16:30:34|gcb900|Re: Father Ed Dowling: dates|
Here is a write-up on Fr Ed Dowling that might be worth looking at.

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=dowfam3&id=I18100&printer_friendly
| 9254|9254|2013-06-09 20:49:19|Michael Gwirtz|Stepping Stones Needs Letters of Support|
Attached is a e mail I received from Stepping Stones requesting letters of support. Please, if you are so inclined, send a letter of support.
Thank You,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz


Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Stepping Stones" <info@steppingstones.org>
> Date: June 6, 2013, 2:19:23 PM EDT
> To: <visit@steppingstones.org>, "'Crystal Stringham'" <crystalalene@yahoo.com>, <'gailandalhein@verizon.net'>, "'Chris Parke'" <chparke@gmail.com>, "'Michael Walsh'" <mboxerwalsh@gmail.com>, <joejoanL0101@aol.com>, <jimmccart123@gmail.com>, "'Barbara l'" <misslizard@snet.net>, <'trishla@optonline.net'>, <charrington6@nyc.rr.com>, <'jimmccart123@gmail.com'>, "'Spm2353@aol. com'" <Spm2353@aol.com>, "'Tom Linley'" <tlinley1952@gmail.com>, <smv38@msn.com>, "'PHILLIP O'KEEFE'" <pdokeefe@optonline.net>, "daniel mathis" <danmat09@gmail.com>, "aok" <aokb@me.com>, "Laurie Lewis" <lauriehlewis@gmail.com>, <JsphDeP@aol.com>, "trish adinolfi" <tsmv4ever@yahoo.com>, <jcareyrn1@aol.com>, <susmarie1@msn.co>, <absfree1@aol.com>
> Subject: FW: Stepping Stones Needs Letters of Support
>
>
> Dear Friends of Stepping Stones –
>
> I would like to draw your attention to an important service you can provide Stepping Stones – namely, the writing of a letter to the Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals in support of a variance application necessary for our National Historic Landmark site to continue its mission into the future. Attached is a draft letter provided by our counsel that provides the framework for your letter. We are going before the zoning board next Wednesday, June 12 – so it is crucial that you write your letter and post it as soon as possible. Also, if you prefer, please feel free to communicate through email to Zoning Board Secretary Alex Costello, acostello@bedfordny.gov Below you will see a note from Jim Moogan, president of the Board of Trustees of the Stepping Stones Foundation, who lays out the case in greater detail.
>
> Your support – and more importantly, your action – is greatly appreciated in this undertaking. Please excuse the redundancy if you received this message more than once as we are trying to reach as many known friends of Stepping Stones as possible.
>
> Sincerely,
> Lauron
>
> Lauron Lewis
> Interim Executive Director
> Stepping Stones, historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson
> 62 Oak Road
> Katonah, NY 10536
> (914) 232-4822
> (914) 645-2108
> www.steppingstones.org
> Info@steppingstones.org
>
> Following is the message from Jim Moogan:
> Dear Friends:
>
> Stepping Stones is a wonderful historic resource and has served as a gathering place for friends and supporters of Bill and Lois Wilson since they moved there in 1941. Over the remainder of their lives, they opened their home to literally thousands of visitors. Since Lois's death in 1988, the Stepping Stones Foundation has continued to open the house, archives, and grounds to visitors from all over the world, just as they had wished. Stepping Stones has existed as we know it today for over 72 years!
>
> This year, Stepping Stones was designated a National Historic Landmark, in recognition of the significance the work of this remarkable couple has had on the Nation.
>
> In the past few years, a very small group of local neighbors have challenged Stepping Stones right to exist, citing an obscure zoning regulation that requires not-for-profit organizations to be located on a state or county road. Stepping Stones predated the zoning rule, and has existed in harmony with the community for many years.
>
> Next Wednesday, June 12, the Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals will hear Stepping Stones request for a zoning variance, relieving Stepping Stones from that requirement. Other not-for-profits have been granted the variance by the Town in the past, and we are cautiously optimistic that the Board will find in our favor.
>
> However, this small opposition group will be vigorous and vocal in its opposition, and it is important that the Zoning Board hears from Stepping Stones supporters.
>
> Please take a moment and write a letter of support for Stepping Stones! It is very important that you be heard. Below and attached is a sample letter that lays out the issue. Please use it as a guide and tell the Board in your own words how important Stepping Stones is to you, to Bedford and to the Nation.
>
> Time is of the essence. The Zoning Board meets NEXT WEDNESDAY JUNE 12.
>
> Please do not hesitate to call me if you have any questions or comments. Also, please pass this along to anyone else who may be inclined to write on our behalf.
>
> If you would like to attend the hearing, it would also be helpful as a show of support.
>
> Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals
> Wednesday, June 12, 2013
> Time:
> 7:30 pm
> Location:
> 425 Cherry Street, Bedford Hills, NY
>
> Many Thanks!
>
> Best,
> Jim
>
> Jim Moogan
> 914-584-4664
>
> DRAFT LETTER (also attached above)
>
>
>
> June , 2012
>
>
> Chairman Peter Michaelis
> Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals
> 425 Cherry Street
> Bedford Hills, NY 10507
>
>
> Re: Application for Area Variance. Stepping Stones
> 62 Oak Road, Bedford Hills, New York
>
> Dear Chairman Michaelis and Board Members:
>
> I am writing to convey my support for Stepping Stones in its application for an area variance from the frontage requirements of §125-82 of the Bedford Town Code. This will enable Stepping Stones to continue providing its philanthropic commitments that were commenced by the Wilsons more than 70 years ago at this site.
>
> The Town and Stepping Stones have worked diligently to develop a plan that regulates Stepping Stones in a fashion that is very respectful and protective of the neighbors. The Planning Board has endorsed the Special Use Permit application and operating guidelines and is prepared to approve the site plan application. The Town Board has issued a Negative Declaration, determining that Stepping Stones’ will not have any significant adverse environmental impact. Issuance of the area variance by your Board is the only action necessary before final approval by the two other Boards may be granted.
>
> Despite the anonymity associated with Bill and Lois Wilson’s work, their historic home, Stepping Stones, has become symbolic of their many contributions to society. Whether it is Bedford’s backyard or the global stage, the historical significance of this site has become part of our heritage. That is why it has recently been designated a National Historic Landmark. Such a national treasure undoubtedly warrants the granting of an area variance, particularly where the Town and Stepping Stones have worked so diligently to protect the neighborhood from any perceived growth and it is merely to allow an existing condition to continue.
>
> I wish to thank the Zoning board for its consideration in this matter and strongly urge your support and favorable vote in the granting of the variance.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9255|9255|2013-06-09 20:50:02|bobhickey674|Early members in Cleveland|
We are trying to find out if anybody knows any information about John Twohy or Rod Merrick. They got sober about 65 years ago in Cleveland, Ohio. John stayed sober for about 25 years but we don't know about Rod. Cynthia is John's granddaughter and Rod is her uncle. If my math is correct they would have got sober in the mid to late 40's or maybe earlier. Thanks for your help. Bob Hickey
| 9256|9256|2013-06-09 20:53:44|r_peter2003|Sobriety History of the First One Hundred|
In Message #8061 we were provided with a list of the first 100 members. Can we construct a sobriety timeline for each person on the list?

It seems to me that the list would have three broad groupings:

1. THOSE WHO JOINED AND NEVER DRANK AGAIN (e.g., Bill Wilson, etc.)

2. THOSE WHO JOINED, RELAPSED, REJOINED, AND NEVER DRANK AGAIN (e.g., James Burwell, joined Jan38, rejoined June38)

3. THOSE WHO JOINED, RELAPSED, AND DID NOT RECOVER (e.g., Henry Parkhurst, joined Sept35, relapsed Dec39?)

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

Peter
| 9257|9257|2013-06-10 13:30:41|Arthur S|Retraction of (and apology for) assertion that Clarence Snyder was p|
I’m compelled to correct the AAHistoryLovers record and retract my previous assertion that Clarence S was paid for his Big Book story.



GSO Archives was kind enough to respond to my request for information on the matter and did a thorough archival research on Clarence and Alcoholic Foundation records.



There is no substantive information available that would support a conclusion (or inference) that Clarence S received any compensation for his story.



Accordingly, I must apologize for the misleading information I publicly submitted, but more importantly apologize for denigrating the memory and history of AA Pioneer Clarence S.



My prior assertion was based too much on imagination and semantics and not on corroborating research.



Arthur S



From: Arthur S [ Arthur.S@live.com> mailto:Arthur.S@live.com]
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 6:02 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?



Cleveland didn’t start as a group until after the publication of the Big Book. They commuted to Akron prior to that.



Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.



As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.



Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA “Another Prodigal Story”

Norman Hunt from Darien, CT “Educated Agnostic”

Earl T from Chicago, IL “He Sold Himself Short”

Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA “Lone Endeavor” (later removed in 2nd printing)

Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD “Our Southern Friend”

Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI “The Fearful One”

Clarence S from Cleveland, OH “Home Brewmeister”

Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH “The Rolling Stone”

Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH “The Back Slider”

Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH “An Alcoholic’s Wife” (non-alcoholic)

Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH “The European Drinker”

Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH “The Salesman”



Harrison’s letter was clearly intended to be insulting and embarrassing to Clarence. That’s why he distributed a copy to all the Central Committee Members - Clarence resigned as Central Committee Chair shortly afterward.



My reading is that Harrison was making a rejoinder to Clarence’s persistent (and numerous) complaints of “keeping members in the dark about financial affairs” (i.e. that Clarence too was keeping members in the dark on a particular financial matter).



I interpret Harrison to be saying that of all the stories submitted for the first edition one of them was not a contribution - that one was from Clarence. If it wasn’t a contribution then what was it?



That’s my take on it - I’ve been taken to task on this by one member privately - but I’m sticking to the assertion.



I know that Bill W and Dr Bob received royalties but have never seen any ledgers. I’ve also never seen ledgers for the contributions from the Rockefeller dinner donors etc., etc.).



Cheers

Arthur



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [ AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Bliss
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 10:52 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

I am a little confused about the conclusion that Clarence Snyder was paid (which is perhaps the reason for the '?' in the subject).

From my reading of the two references, the only thing which is being stated is that:

1) One story in the Big Book came from a member in Cleveland (Clarence Snyder's story)

2) The balance of the stories came from members in New York and Akron

From reviewing the listing of member stories in the first edition which are listed on Silkworth.net this is not completely accurate if that is the proper reading, unless it is related to where they attended meetings when they were writing the story as opposed to where their actually residences were. But I am having difficulty extending this discrepancy to the point of imputing that Clarence Snyder was paid for his story.

Perhaps I am missing some context in these comments though. I would love to see some ledger entries which would verify this, if it exists.

Thanks for your research Arthur,

Jim

_________________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur S <arthur.s@live.com >
Sent: Fri, 03 May 2013 09:43:53 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: RE: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

There are two references.

In March 1943, the Alcoholic Foundation published a report on fund raising and royalties to Bill W and Dr Bob (GSO Archives reference Bx 22, R 10, File 8.2, p 16). The section titled "HISTORY OF THE BOOK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS AND PRESENT DISTRIBUTION OF ITS INCOME" begins with the sentence "The book Alcoholics Anonymous, published in 1939, was made possible by older members of the Akron and New York groups. Akron and New York members contributed their stories, excepting one, by a Cleveland member."

On July 7, 1944, Leonard V Harrison wrote a rather sharp letter to Clarence S in response to a June 26, 1944 letter from Clarence criticizing: Dr Bob and Bill W for accepting royalties; the price of the Big Book; the Trustees keeping members "in the dark about financial affairs" and the proposed election of a Cleveland member to the Board of Trustees. Clarence claimed to acting in behalf of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's rather harsh reply, refuted the points raised by Clarence and a copy was sent to each member of the Cleveland Central Committee. Harrison's reply noted to Clarence that "Akron and NY AAs contributed their stories (with the exception of one story from Cleveland, your own)."

Don't know the amount but it's an odd situation.

Cheers
Arthur

_______________________________________________

From: fivequestionsguy
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013
Subject: Clarence Snyder was paid for his story?

Is there a source for his receiving remuneration? How much was he paid?

Thanks,
Peter







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9258|9256|2013-06-10 13:31:20|Sally Brown|Re: Sobriety History of the First One Hundred|
Hi, Peter – You may already have the record of Marty Mann’s relapses, but in case you don’t, here they are:

Sobriety Date: April 11, 1939
3 brief relapses: during year between Xmas 1939 & Xmas 1940
1 of unknown length (probably 1 month max): around 1960-1962

Marty was always open about the 3 brief relapses early in her sobriety. But she never mentioned the later fairly serious one, presumably because of her felt need to protect her organization, NCA – and perhaps her role in AA, too.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv, BCC coauthor with David R Brown

United Church of Christ A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
Palo Alto VA Med Ctr, CA (Ret) (Hazelden. Center City, MN. 2001.)



1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone: 650 325 5258

_________________________________________________________________________________________________



From: r_peter2003
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 3:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sobriety History of the First One Hundred


In Message #8061 we were provided with a list of the first 100 members. Can we construct a sobriety timeline for each person on the list?

It seems to me that the list would have three broad groupings:

1. THOSE WHO JOINED AND NEVER DRANK AGAIN (e.g., Bill Wilson, etc.)

2. THOSE WHO JOINED, RELAPSED, REJOINED, AND NEVER DRANK AGAIN (e.g., James Burwell, joined Jan38, rejoined June38)

3. THOSE WHO JOINED, RELAPSED, AND DID NOT RECOVER (e.g., Henry Parkhurst, joined Sept35, relapsed Dec39?)

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

Peter







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9259|9259|2013-06-13 10:26:46|bobhickey674|Books about Dr. Bob|
I was talking to a friend about AA books and neither of use could think of any about Dr.Bob. The only one I know of is Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers. Does anyone know of others?
| 9260|9260|2013-06-13 10:26:57|dave|Dr. Bob Tape|
In the book "Children of the Healer" Sue Smith Windows says, "And Bill -- well, Bill came down one time when Ernie and I were still together, and Bill and I made this tape about A.A. and Dad." Has anyone heard or know of this tape. Thanks to all, Dave
| 9261|9260|2013-06-14 06:34:51|Geoff Smith|Re: Dr. Bob Tape|
There is one called the Akron Genesis of AA. I'm afraid I'm on holiday in France and not near my library for more details,

Geoff

On 12/06/2013, at 11:50 PM, "dave" <dave_landuyt@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In the book "Children of the Healer" Sue Smith Windows says, "And Bill -- well, Bill came down one time when Ernie and I were still together, and Bill and I made this tape about A.A. and Dad." Has anyone heard or know of this tape. Thanks to all, Dave
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9262|9254|2013-06-14 06:35:23|xena|Re: Stepping Stones Needs Letters of Support|
I am a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and my name is Lisa. I just joined the AA History Lovers list,  and would like to learn what the outcome of the variance hearing was. Can anyone help? 

I became familiar with Stepping Stones when after the 48th General Service Conference, the Conference Delegates were taken on an outing there.

In Love & Service, 
Lisa Hens
Panel 47 Area 47
Central NY


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Michael Gwirtz <Shakey1aa@aol.com>
Date: 06/06/2013 3:17 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com" <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>,Shakey1aa Gwirtz <shakey1aa@aol.com>,Anne Marie Gwirtz <ashaw58926@aol.com>,Mitchell K <howitworked@gmail.com>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Stepping Stones Needs Letters of Support

Attached is a e mail I received from Stepping Stones requesting letters of support. Please, if you are so inclined, send a letter of support.
Thank You,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Stepping Stones" <info@steppingstones.org>
> Date: June 6, 2013, 2:19:23 PM EDT
> To: <visit@steppingstones.org>, "'Crystal Stringham'" <crystalalene@yahoo.com>, <'gailandalhein@verizon.net'>, "'Chris Parke'" <chparke@gmail.com>, "'Michael Walsh'" <mboxerwalsh@gmail.com>, <joejoanL0101@aol.com>, <jimmccart123@gmail.com>, "'Barbara l'" <misslizard@snet.net>, <'trishla@optonline.net'>, <charrington6@nyc.rr.com>, <'jimmccart123@gmail.com'>, "'Spm2353@aol. com'" <Spm2353@aol.com>, "'Tom Linley'" <tlinley1952@gmail.com>, <smv38@msn.com>, "'PHILLIP O'KEEFE'" <pdokeefe@optonline.net>, "daniel mathis" <danmat09@gmail.com>, "aok" <aokb@me.com>, "Laurie Lewis" <lauriehlewis@gmail.com>, <JsphDeP@aol.com>, "trish adinolfi" <tsmv4ever@yahoo.com>, <jcareyrn1@aol.com>, <susmarie1@msn.co>, <absfree1@aol.com>
> Subject: FW: Stepping Stones Needs Letters of Support
>
>
> Dear Friends of Stepping Stones –
>
> I would like to draw your attention to an important service you can provide Stepping Stones – namely, the writing of a letter to the Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals in support of a variance application necessary for our National Historic Landmark site to continue its mission into the future. Attached is a draft letter provided by our counsel that provides the framework for your letter. We are going before the zoning board next Wednesday, June 12 – so it is crucial that you write your letter and post it as soon as possible. Also, if you prefer, please feel free to communicate through email to Zoning Board Secretary Alex Costello, acostello@bedfordny.gov Below you will see a note from Jim Moogan, president of the Board of Trustees of the Stepping Stones Foundation, who lays out the case in greater detail.
>
> Your support – and more importantly, your action – is greatly appreciated in this undertaking. Please excuse the redundancy if you received this message more than once as we are trying to reach as many known friends of Stepping Stones as possible.
>
> Sincerely,
> Lauron
>
> Lauron Lewis
> Interim Executive Director
> Stepping Stones, historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson
> 62 Oak Road
> Katonah, NY 10536
> (914) 232-4822
> (914) 645-2108
> www.steppingstones.org
> Info@steppingstones.org
>
> Following is the message from Jim Moogan:
> Dear Friends:
>
> Stepping Stones is a wonderful historic resource and has served as a gathering place for friends and supporters of Bill and Lois Wilson since they moved there in 1941. Over the remainder of their lives, they opened their home to literally thousands of visitors. Since Lois's death in 1988, the Stepping Stones Foundation has continued to open the house, archives, and grounds to visitors from all over the world, just as they had wished. Stepping Stones has existed as we know it today for over 72 years!
>
> This year, Stepping Stones was designated a National Historic Landmark, in recognition of the significance the work of this remarkable couple has had on the Nation.
>
> In the past few years, a very small group of local neighbors have challenged Stepping Stones right to exist, citing an obscure zoning regulation that requires not-for-profit organizations to be located on a state or county road. Stepping Stones predated the zoning rule, and has existed in harmony with the community for many years.
>
> Next Wednesday, June 12, the Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals will hear Stepping Stones request for a zoning variance, relieving Stepping Stones from that requirement. Other not-for-profits have been granted the variance by the Town in the past, and we are cautiously optimistic that the Board will find in our favor.
>
> However, this small opposition group will be vigorous and vocal in its opposition, and it is important that the Zoning Board hears from Stepping Stones supporters.
>
> Please take a moment and write a letter of support for Stepping Stones! It is very important that you be heard. Below and attached is a sample letter that lays out the issue. Please use it as a guide and tell the Board in your own words how important Stepping Stones is to you, to Bedford and to the Nation.
>
> Time is of the essence. The Zoning Board meets NEXT WEDNESDAY JUNE 12.
>
> Please do not hesitate to call me if you have any questions or comments. Also, please pass this along to anyone else who may be inclined to write on our behalf.
>
> If you would like to attend the hearing, it would also be helpful as a show of support.
>
> Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals
> Wednesday, June 12, 2013
> Time:
> 7:30 pm
> Location:
> 425 Cherry Street, Bedford Hills, NY
>
> Many Thanks!
>
> Best,
> Jim
>
> Jim Moogan
> 914-584-4664
>
> DRAFT LETTER (also attached above)
>
>
>
> June , 2012
>
>
> Chairman Peter Michaelis
> Town of Bedford Zoning Board of Appeals
> 425 Cherry Street
> Bedford Hills, NY 10507
>
>
> Re: Application for Area Variance. Stepping Stones
> 62 Oak Road, Bedford Hills, New York
>
> Dear Chairman Michaelis and Board Members:
>
> I am writing to convey my support for Stepping Stones in its application for an area variance from the frontage requirements of §125-82 of the Bedford Town Code. This will enable Stepping Stones to continue providing its philanthropic commitments that were commenced by the Wilsons more than 70 years ago at this site.
>
> The Town and Stepping Stones have worked diligently to develop a plan that regulates Stepping Stones in a fashion that is very respectful and protective of the neighbors. The Planning Board has endorsed the Special Use Permit application and operating guidelines and is prepared to approve the site plan application. The Town Board has issued a Negative Declaration, determining that Stepping Stones’ will not have any significant adverse environmental impact. Issuance of the area variance by your Board is the only action necessary before final approval by the two other Boards may be granted.
>
> Despite the anonymity associated with Bill and Lois Wilson’s work, their historic home, Stepping Stones, has become symbolic of their many contributions to society. Whether it is Bedford’s backyard or the global stage, the historical significance of this site has become part of our heritage. That is why it has recently been designated a National Historic Landmark. Such a national treasure undoubtedly warrants the granting of an area variance, particularly where the Town and Stepping Stones have worked so diligently to protect the neighborhood from any perceived growth and it is merely to allow an existing condition to continue.
>
> I wish to thank the Zoning board for its consideration in this matter and strongly urge your support and favorable vote in the granting of the variance.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9263|9259|2013-06-14 06:35:30|khemex@comcast.net|Re: Books about Dr. Bob|
How about "Children of the Healer" ?






Gerry Winkelman,
----- Original Message -----
From: "bobhickey674" <bobhickey674@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:26:00 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Books about Dr. Bob






I was talking to a friend about AA books and neither of use could think of any about Dr.Bob. The only one I know of is Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers. Does anyone know of others?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9264|9259|2013-06-14 06:35:38|gcb900|Re: Books about Dr. Bob|
Alcoholics Anonymous History
Dr. Bob of Alcoholics Anonymous
His Excellent Training in the Good Book As a Youngster in Vermont

By Dick B. and Ken B.


Search the full text of this book

Dr. Bob of Alcoholics Anonymous
His Excellent Training in the Good Book As a Youngster in Vermont
This title tells you about A.A. cofounder Dr. Bob’s “excellent training”
in the “Good Book” as “a youngster.” It presents an in-depth exploration
of the training Dr. Bob received during his boyhood years in St. Johnsbury,
Vermont. You will see, from its documented details, that young Bob’s major
Christian training—the training translated into the early A.A. spiritual
recovery program in Akron—came from his parents, Walter P. and Susan H.
Smith; North Congregational Church, St. Johnsbury; the Christian Endeavor
Society of that church; and the rigorous requirements and studies at the famous
St. Johnsbury Academy. The authors traveled to St. Johnsbury; visited
principal buildings existing during Bob’s youth; interviewed the North Church
pastor, the St. Johnsbury Academy archivist and the librarian, people at his
boyhood home, and others. Then began their intensive research of the actual
records, background books, photos, and communications. The bibliography
will help readers to do likewise if they choose. More importantly, this title
is a companion to a second “volume” comprising 20 resource binders and to
a large number of books in the newly- founded Dr. Bob Core Library at North
Congregational Church, St. Johnsbury, which houses extensive historical,
biographical, educational, Christian, and other books, manuscripts, and
photographs.

Paradise Research Publications, Inc.; 353 pp.; 6 x 9; perfect bound; 2008;
$24.95; ISBN 1-885803-85-0






In a message dated 6/13/2013 1:26:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bobhickey674@yahoo.com writes:




I was talking to a friend about AA books and neither of use could think of
any about Dr.Bob. The only one I know of is Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers.
Does anyone know of others?






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9265|9265|2013-06-15 13:23:08|Brian O'Shea|Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?|
Warm Greetings to All,

Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.

Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:

"Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."

Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.

Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?

Love & Service,
Brian O.
P62/A31

cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist



Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.

As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.

Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA “Another Prodigal Story”

Norman Hunt from Darien, CT “Educated Agnostic”

Earl T from Chicago, IL “He Sold Himself Short”

Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA “Lone Endeavor” (later removed in 2nd printing)

Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD “Our Southern Friend”

Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI “The Fearful One”

Clarence S from Cleveland, OH “Home Brewmeister”

Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH “The Rolling Stone”

Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH “The Back Slider”

Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH “An Alcoholic’s Wife” (non-alcoholic)

Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH “The European Drinker”

Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH “The Salesman”



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9266|9266|2013-06-15 13:23:35|Ted|Some Rowland Hazard Memorabilia|
For anyone interested in the Rowland Hazard History and/or information
about his New Mexico adventure

please refer to the attached site.

http://nmsua.edu/tiopete/la-luz-pottery-factory/

Sincerely
Ted Harrington
| 9267|9265|2013-06-16 00:30:17|Fiona|Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?|
Please refer to messages 78883 and 7888 for confirmation.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Brian O'Shea wrote:
>
>
> Warm Greetings to All,
>
> Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.
>
> Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:
>
> "Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."
>
> Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.
>
> Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?
>
> Love & Service,
> Brian O.
> P62/A31
>
> cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist
>
>
>
> Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.
>
> As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.
>
> Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA “Another Prodigal Story”
>
> Norman Hunt from Darien, CT “Educated Agnostic”
>
> Earl T from Chicago, IL “He Sold Himself Short”
>
> Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA “Lone Endeavor” (later removed in 2nd printing)
>
> Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD “Our Southern Friend”
>
> Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI “The Fearful One”
>
> Clarence S from Cleveland, OH “Home Brewmeister”
>
> Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH “The Rolling Stone”
>
> Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH “The Back Slider”
>
> Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH “An Alcoholic’s Wife” (non-alcoholic)
>
> Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH “The European Drinker”
>
> Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH “The Salesman”
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
| 9268|9265|2013-06-19 09:14:40|jax760|Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?|
Just an FYI - The reason the name "Robert" is "incorrectly given" is because the official documents of Works Publishing list "Robert" as a shareholder in the corporation. Correspondence on file in the archives in NY shows he himself used the nickname "Bob" ..he signed the letters to Ruth "Bob". Would love to hear something definitive re Roland vs. Robert?

Regarding Darien CT - this was the home town of Norman Hunt - (Educated Agnostic)would you elaborate on Robert/Roland's connection to this group/town?

Regards,

Jonh B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" wrote:
>
> Please refer to messages 78883 and 7888 for confirmation.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Brian O'Shea wrote:
> >
> >
> > Warm Greetings to All,
> >
> > Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.
> >
> > Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:
> >
> > "Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."
> >
> > Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.
> >
> > Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?
> >
> > Love & Service,
> > Brian O.
> > P62/A31
> >
> > cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist
> >
> >
> >
> > Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.
> >
> > As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.
> >
> > Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA “Another Prodigal Story”
> >
> > Norman Hunt from Darien, CT “Educated Agnostic”
> >
> > Earl T from Chicago, IL “He Sold Himself Short”
> >
> > Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA “Lone Endeavor” (later removed in 2nd printing)
> >
> > Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD “Our Southern Friend”
> >
> > Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI “The Fearful One”
> >
> > Clarence S from Cleveland, OH “Home Brewmeister”
> >
> > Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH “The Rolling Stone”
> >
> > Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH “The Back Slider”
> >
> > Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH “An Alcoholic’s Wife” (non-alcoholic)
> >
> > Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH “The European Drinker”
> >
> > Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH “The Salesman”
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
| 9269|9269|2013-06-19 09:14:54|ckbudnick|Order of the Twelve Traditions|
A friend of mine asked me if I had any insight into the order of the Twelve Traditions. In particular, he was wondering why Tradition Three (membership) did not follow Tradition One (Unity), with Tradition Two (group conscience)following after membership.

Chris B.
Raleigh, NC
| 9270|9270|2013-06-19 09:15:36|Michael Margetis|Photo Of Dr. Bob|
Hi all,

Hope this is not an inappropriate request for AAHL. I have been
preparing a modest PowerPoint presentation on AA history. Whether I ever
make a presentation or not, I am enjoying putting it together immensely.

I've been able to find literally dozens and dozens of history
related photos online. However, photos of Dr. Bob are not real
plentiful.

I would love to tell the story of Bill's last visit to Dr. Bob on
the Sunday before his death. The visual I get of Bill walking down the
steps of 855 Ardmore and then looking back up at Dr. Bob on the front
porch knowing he was probably looking at him for the last time just
gives me goose bumps!

I've searched high and low and cannot find a picture of Dr. Bob on
the front porch of 855 Ardmore Ave. (Obviously it wouldn't be from
that day…just any photo of him on the porch…) Can anyone on AAHL
point me in the right direction? I've been to Dr. Bob's house a
couple of times in the last year, but don't remember seeing anything
there.

Thanks,

Mike Margetis

Brunswick Maryland



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9271|9271|2013-06-20 11:51:15|J. Lobdell|RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA|
His original [birth] name was Roland Arthur. He was born in Columbia SC in 1882 and is listed as the son of two people who married after his birth. My suggestion [in a note in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, April-May-June 2009] was that his mother had been reading Sidney Lanier and his father preferred the name ”Bob” to the “chivalric” “Roland Arthur.” He died in Springfield in 1946, but is buried, as are both of his wives, in Laurel Hill Cemetery in St. Louis


Sent from Windows Mail


From: jax760
Sent: ‎June‎ ‎19‎, ‎2013 ‎9‎:‎15‎ ‎AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?



Just an FYI - The reason the name "Robert" is "incorrectly given" is because the official documents of Works Publishing list "Robert" as a shareholder in the corporation. Correspondence on file in the archives in NY shows he himself used the nickname "Bob" ..he signed the letters to Ruth "Bob". Would love to hear something definitive re Roland vs. Robert?

Regarding Darien CT - this was the home town of Norman Hunt - (Educated Agnostic)would you elaborate on Robert/Roland's connection to this group/town?

Regards,

Jonh B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" wrote:
>
> Please refer to messages 78883 and 7888 for confirmation.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Brian O'Shea wrote:
> >
> >
> > Warm Greetings to All,
> >
> > Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.
> >
> > Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:
> >
> > "Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."
> >
> > Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.
> >
> > Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?
> >
> > Love & Service,
> > Brian O.
> > P62/A31
> >
> > cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist
> >
> >
> >
> > Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.
> >
> > As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.
> >
> > Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA “Another Prodigal Story”
> >
> > Norman Hunt from Darien, CT “Educated Agnostic”
> >
> > Earl T from Chicago, IL “He Sold Himself Short”
> >
> > Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA “Lone Endeavor” (later removed in 2nd printing)
> >
> > Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD “Our Southern Friend”
> >
> > Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI “The Fearful One”
> >
> > Clarence S from Cleveland, OH “Home Brewmeister”
> >
> > Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH “The Rolling Stone”
> >
> > Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH “The Back Slider”
> >
> > Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH “An Alcoholic’s Wife” (non-alcoholic)
> >
> > Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH “The European Drinker”
> >
> > Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH “The Salesman”
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9272|9272|2013-06-20 11:51:27|Michael Margetis|Charles B. Towns Ph.D.|
Hi all,

Having trouble finding the answer to this one….seems simple, but
I'm striking out…Charles B. Towns has Ph.D. after his name. I
know he wasn't an M.D., what was the Ph.D. in? When did he receive
it? From what University?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis

Brunswick Maryland



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9273|9273|2013-06-21 12:03:01|J. Lobdell|RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Charles B. Towns Ph.D.|
Charles Barnes Towns never attended college so far as I have determined, never claimed to have attended college [the self-puffing bio he wrote ca 1924 that was the basis for his N Y Times obituary never mentioned college], and so far as we know he went straight from the family farm [his dad was a Colonel in the CSA btw] to working in the city, or at least traveling the commercial circuit, where he became an ace insurance salesman -- he was however proud of his son Edward Barbour Towns, who received his BA and LLB from Columbia [which CBT mentions in a 1931 letter to a family connection doing family research]. His brother wound up as a horticulturalist in Cuba: I daresay the Towns family were well-enough educated, if at home. And Charlie Towns learned his Towns Hospital principles pretty much at home from his father -- I mean the principles of exercise and hard work and keeping your internal system clean. He seems to have been a natural-born salesman -- perhaps he recognized a kindred spirit in Bill W. [There’s material in CBT in one of the 2008 issues of the CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, on line.]


Sent from Windows Mail


From: Michael Margetis
Sent: ‎June‎ ‎20‎, ‎2013 ‎11‎:‎51‎ ‎AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Charles B. Towns Ph.D.




Hi all,

Having trouble finding the answer to this one….seems simple, but
I'm striking out…Charles B. Towns has Ph.D. after his name. I
know he wasn't an M.D., what was the Ph.D. in? When did he receive
it? From what University?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis

Brunswick Maryland



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9274|9272|2013-06-21 12:03:10|John Lee|Re: Charles B. Towns Ph.D.|
Charles Towns was a  PhD to the same extent that Colonel Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chicken was a Colonel.   You can't prove a negative. Towns never went to college.  He was born in 1862. There were very few PhDs awarded to anyone in the America in the 19th century. 
John Lee 
Pittsburgh

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9275|9271|2013-06-24 13:27:04|John Barton|Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?|
With all due respect to my good friend Jared I still don't see any hard evidence that we are talking about the same people. What harder evidence do we have...addresses, family members, employment status...? Why would Works Publishing list him as "Robert" instead of Roland...why not Bob Furlong if that was the name he went by? Is there anything that links Roland to Empire Stationers 305 Bridge Street?

 
John B

________________________________
From: J. Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
To: "AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:59 PM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?

 
His original [birth] name was Roland Arthur. He was born in Columbia SC in 1882 and is listed as the son of two people who married after his birth. My suggestion [in a note in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, April-May-June 2009] was that his mother had been reading Sidney Lanier and his father preferred the name ”Bob” to the “chivalric” “Roland Arthur.” He died in Springfield in 1946, but is buried, as are both of his wives, in Laurel Hill Cemetery in St. Louis


Sent from Windows Mail


From: jax760
Sent: ‎June‎ ‎19‎, ‎2013 ‎9‎:‎15‎ ‎AM
To: mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?



Just an FYI - The reason the name "Robert" is "incorrectly given" is because the official documents of Works Publishing list "Robert" as a shareholder in the corporation. Correspondence on file in the archives in NY shows he himself used the nickname "Bob" ..he signed the letters to Ruth "Bob". Would love to hear something definitive re Roland vs. Robert?

Regarding Darien CT - this was the home town of Norman Hunt - (Educated Agnostic)would you elaborate on Robert/Roland's connection to this group/town?

Regards,

Jonh B

--- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" wrote:
>
> Please refer to messages 78883 and 7888 for confirmation.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, Brian O'Shea wrote:
> >
> >
> > Warm Greetings to All,
> >
> > Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.
> >
> > Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:
> >
> > "Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."
> >
> > Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.
> >
> > Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?
> >
> > Love & Service,
> > Brian O.
> > P62/A31
> >
> > cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist
> >
> >
> >
> > Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.
> >
> > As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.
> >
> > Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA “Another Prodigal Storyâ€
> >
> > Norman Hunt from Darien, CT “Educated Agnosticâ€
> >
> > Earl T from Chicago, IL “He Sold Himself Shortâ€
> >
> > Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA “Lone Endeavor†(later removed in 2nd printing)
> >
> > Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD “Our Southern Friendâ€
> >
> > Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI “The Fearful Oneâ€
> >
> > Clarence S from Cleveland, OH “Home Brewmeisterâ€
> >
> > Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH “The Rolling Stoneâ€
> >
> > Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH “The Back Sliderâ€
> >
> > Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH “An Alcoholic’s Wife†(non-alcoholic)
> >
> > Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH “The European Drinkerâ€
> >
> > Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH “The Salesmanâ€
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9276|9276|2013-06-24 13:27:41|Jim Weaver|A.A. Comes of Age|
Greetings all,
 
i am reading A.A. Comes of Age again. in Appendix E:b, Tiebot tells of his treatment of Marty Mann, giving her the multi-lith copy of the Book and her recovery. my question is; do we know the identity of the fellow Tiebot is referring to later in the Appendices beginning on the bottom of pg. 313?
 
" a man in early forties. from a family of wealth, and the youngest of several children, he was the pampered darling of a neurotic, hypochondriacal mother. "
 
thank you in advance,
 
jim w
district 49
area  59

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9280|9271|2013-06-26 13:16:38|J. Lobdell|RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA|
Census records; grave-markers; city directories; correspondence with his second wife’s cousin -- Works Publishing would list him as Robert possibly for the same reason you would list a friend Bob as Robert -- as to the link, try the 1937 Springfield Directory listing Roland A Furlong at Empire Stationers at 305 Bridge St [I guess it’s 305: the print is very small, but it’s certainly 3[-]5 Bridge St.


Sent from Windows Mail


From: John Barton
Sent: ‎June‎ ‎24‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎27‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?



With all due respect to my good friend Jared I still don't see any hard evidence that we are talking about the same people. What harder evidence do we have...addresses, family members, employment status...? Why would Works Publishing list him as "Robert" instead of Roland...why not Bob Furlong if that was the name he went by? Is there anything that links Roland to Empire Stationers 305 Bridge Street?


John B

________________________________
From: J. Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
To: "AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:59 PM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?


His original [birth] name was Roland Arthur. He was born in Columbia SC in 1882 and is listed as the son of two people who married after his birth. My suggestion [in a note in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, April-May-June 2009] was that his mother had been reading Sidney Lanier and his father preferred the name ”Bob” to the “chivalric” “Roland Arthur.” He died in Springfield in 1946, but is buried, as are both of his wives, in Laurel Hill Cemetery in St. Louis


Sent from Windows Mail


From: jax760
Sent: ‎June‎ ‎19‎, ‎2013 ‎9‎:‎15‎ ‎AM
To: mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?



Just an FYI - The reason the name "Robert" is "incorrectly given" is because the official documents of Works Publishing list "Robert" as a shareholder in the corporation. Correspondence on file in the archives in NY shows he himself used the nickname "Bob" ..he signed the letters to Ruth "Bob". Would love to hear something definitive re Roland vs. Robert?

Regarding Darien CT - this was the home town of Norman Hunt - (Educated Agnostic)would you elaborate on Robert/Roland's connection to this group/town?

Regards,

Jonh B

--- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" wrote:
>
> Please refer to messages 78883 and 7888 for confirmation.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, Brian O'Shea wrote:
> >
> >
> > Warm Greetings to All,
> >
> > Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.
> >
> > Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:
> >
> > "Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."
> >
> > Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.
> >
> > Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?
> >
> > Love & Service,
> > Brian O.
> > P62/A31
> >
> > cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist
> >
> >
> >
> > Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.
> >
> > As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.
> >
> > Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA “Another Prodigal Storyâ€
> >
> > Norman Hunt from Darien, CT “Educated Agnosticâ€
> >
> > Earl T from Chicago, IL “He Sold Himself Shortâ€
> >
> > Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA “Lone Endeavor†(later removed in 2nd printing)
> >
> > Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD “Our Southern Friendâ€
> >
> > Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI “The Fearful Oneâ€
> >
> > Clarence S from Cleveland, OH “Home Brewmeisterâ€
> >
> > Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH “The Rolling Stoneâ€
> >
> > Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH “The Back Sliderâ€
> >
> > Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH “An Alcoholic’s Wife†(non-alcoholic)
> >
> > Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH “The European Drinkerâ€
> >
> > Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH “The Salesmanâ€
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9281|9281|2013-06-26 13:17:29|Roger|AA in Army halfway houses 1970's|
I am researching for an article on Benning House, a halfway house which opened at Fort Benning in March 1970. The architect of the program and clinical director both testified at hearing led by Sen. Harold Hughes in December 1970 along with Joe Zuska regarding the Navy Long Beach program and Dr. Scibatti for the A.F. program at Wright Patterson AFB, Ohio.
This was the first "resident" treatment center on an Army base offering any treatment beyond detox. My research led me to learn about those that followed at
My research led me to learn that the model was quickly adopted and the Army appropriated $4.5 million in FY72 to open 44 halfway houses and "rap centers". By 1974 there were 50 of them reported in a publication from Office of The Army Surgeon General. Alcoholics Anonymous usually met at the halfway houses on post during this era and was part of the treatment plan along with group, family, and individual therapy. Soldiers went to work by day and treatment at night living at the house in their first 30-90 days. They did recreational activities and AA/NA meetings on weekends.
I am seeking anyone who was treated and came into AA through such a halfway house or possibly became a volunteer or staff member. Perhaps someone on this list attended meetings at an Army halfway house or knows someone who did.
I am travelling to Fort Benning next month to conduct interviews with some who were involved there next month. The program remained opened at Benning and most locations until early 1980's and was replaced by a hospital model with the first one opening at Fort Bliss, TX in 1980. Any insight or new information would be very appreciated.
| 9282|9182|2013-06-26 13:18:01|B|Re: Irma Livoni suicide|
Friends,

With the help of Charles K, i have located the grave of our friend Irma Craig (Brown/Livoni). Born 16 Aug 1907, died 24 Aug 1974. She is buried in Inglewood Cemetery(an oasis in the city, according to the website), Inglewood CA. Lot Myrtle, Plot 114. There is a marker so someone either sprung for that or she had made prior arrangements. There is a map available at the cemetery website, www.inglewoodparkcemetery.com.

Maybe one of our members in the Los Angeles area could pay respects to this woman for us. As has been reported here, it appears the story of her suicide as the result of her ostracization is an AA urban myth. She lived at the very least a long life, even after the fateful 1941 letter. We can only hope it was a sober one.

Blessings,

Brian K

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Baileygc23@... wrote:
>
> In 1980, they tried to throw me out of a meeting. I told them they could not throw me out as I did not vote to throw me out. They dumped the coffee pot, and I found out they went to another room and started a new meeting. I gave up. I did not realize they were talking for themselves and not for AA. If it wasn't for one of the people talking to me over the later months, I would have stayed away from AA for good. I did stay away for almost two months, and was talked into going to a different meeting by a person with about four month's sobriety. I never went back to that meeting or to the other local meeting that a lot of the members also attended. Over the years I realized that the other groups in the local area considered that group as a hard group. So the actions of the Los Angeles group does not surprise me. But their leaving a paper trail does.
>
| 9283|9272|2013-06-27 10:57:21|B|Re: Charles B. Towns Ph.D.|
I I am curious what publication, or where in print he is given credit for a PhD? In his obituary, dated 21 Feb 1947, he is C.B. Towns, and is identified as a layman in the body of the obituary.

In a very interesting article in the June 6th 1965 New York Times, "Edward B Towns, 70 year old son of the founder,, recalled that his father, also a layman, had become interested in narocotics addiction shortly afte the turn of the century....."

The article

The five story yellow brick building where the Charles B. Towns Hospital has treated alcoholics and narcotics addicts for more than 50 years closed its doors last week.

The 50-bed institution at 293 Central Park West was a casualty of other detoxification methods, its inability to qualify for Blue Cross payments, and the rigors of a new Hospital Department code. It had pioneered in the "drying out" and "tapering off" process, always regarding alcoholism as a sickness.

Wide Range of Patients
The hospital began in 1909 at 119 West 81st Street, and in 1914 moved to Central Park West.
"No place to go after this" one of the last four patients said "Guess I'll just have to lay off the booze."
Problem drinkers who became patients included the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill W; a Nobel Prize winner in literature, clergymen, actors and actresses, bankers, writers, professional people, and cab drivers.

There was a special five-day rate of $125 for AA members, but the others paid from $205 to $350 a week for private or semi-private rooms. The payments covered all services, medication, nursing, psychiatric consultation, hydrotherapy, and massage.

Edward B. Towns, 70 year old son of the founder, recalled that his father, also a layman, had become interested in narocotics addiction shortly after the turn of the century and had won for his methods the endorsement of leading physicians. He found that many narcotic addicts also had a history of alcoholism.

Charles B Towns, who died Feb 21st, 1947 (actually Feb 20th)at the age of 85, framed the Boylan bill to regulate narcotics, which the State Legislature enacted in 1914.

In 1908 Mr. Towns studied the use of opium in China. He opened four hospitals, and in 1909 attended the first International Opium Conference in Shanghai. On his return he demonstrated his treatment at Bellevue Hospital, and contributed articles on the subject.

Son Operated Hospital
His son, a retired infantry colonel who served in both world wars, operated the hospital in its last 21 years. A graduate of Columbia College and the university's law school, he practice law until 1940.

The Towns method in recent years consisted of detoxification in combination with supportive vitamin therapy-the tapering-off process was discontinued 15 years ago. Resident physicians applied the theory that doses of vitamins replaced the vitamins destroyed by liquor.

The treatment for narcotics addicts was based on a carefully timed method of rapid withdrawal. Mr. Towns asserted the only way to treat the intransigent young addict was to place him in custody and teach him a trade or vocation.

"The addict today has no motivation beyond hanging around bop joints, getting on the white stuff," he said. "Unlike the oldtime morphine addict, he's just another junkie hanging around, doing nothing."

The alcoholic, he said, now can be helped through AA and through treatment of the psychic phase of his illness. On the whole, he observed, the alcoholics were "a pretty thankful crowd."
By Morris Kaplan

As an aside, in a copy of the 1917 Columbia University/College yearbook, Edward B. Towns, with picture included,has nicknames shown of "Opium Eddie" and "Coke", along with a phrase "Blessed are the pure of heart." I am thinking, and hoping, that the nicknames came as a result of his classmates finding out what his father did for a living, rather than his own habits.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Lee wrote:
>
> Charles Towns was a  PhD to the same extent that Colonel Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chicken was a Colonel.   You can't prove a negative. Towns never went to college.  He was born in 1862. There were very few PhDs awarded to anyone in the America in the 19th century. 
> John Lee 
> Pittsburgh
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
| 9284|9271|2013-06-29 00:44:43|jax760|Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?|
Thank You Jared,

Based on your citation of the Springfiled City Directory of "37" I will revise the first 100 list.

Warm regards,

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> Census records; grave-markers; city directories; correspondence with his second wife’s cousin -- Works Publishing would list him as Robert possibly for the same reason you would list a friend Bob as Robert -- as to the link, try the 1937 Springfield Directory listing Roland A Furlong at Empire Stationers at 305 Bridge St [I guess it’s 305: the print is very small, but it’s certainly 3[-]5 Bridge St.
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
>
> From: John Barton
> Sent: ‎June‎ ‎24‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎27‎ ‎PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?
>
>
>
> With all due respect to my good friend Jared I still don't see any hard evidence that we are talking about the same people. What harder evidence do we have...addresses, family members, employment status...? Why would Works Publishing list him as "Robert" instead of Roland...why not Bob Furlong if that was the name he went by? Is there anything that links Roland to Empire Stationers 305 Bridge Street?
>
>
> John B
>
> ________________________________
> From: J. Lobdell
> To: "AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?
>
>
> His original [birth] name was Roland Arthur. He was born in Columbia SC in 1882 and is listed as the son of two people who married after his birth. My suggestion [in a note in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, April-May-June 2009] was that his mother had been reading Sidney Lanier and his father preferred the name ”Bob” to the “chivalric” “Roland Arthur.” He died in Springfield in 1946, but is buried, as are both of his wives, in Laurel Hill Cemetery in St. Louis
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
>
> From: jax760
> Sent: ‎June‎ ‎19‎, ‎2013 ‎9‎:‎15‎ ‎AM
> To: mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?
>
>
>
> Just an FYI - The reason the name "Robert" is "incorrectly given" is because the official documents of Works Publishing list "Robert" as a shareholder in the corporation. Correspondence on file in the archives in NY shows he himself used the nickname "Bob" ..he signed the letters to Ruth "Bob". Would love to hear something definitive re Roland vs. Robert?
>
> Regarding Darien CT - this was the home town of Norman Hunt - (Educated Agnostic)would you elaborate on Robert/Roland's connection to this group/town?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonh B
>
> --- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" wrote:
> >
> > Please refer to messages 78883 and 7888 for confirmation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, Brian O'Shea wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Warm Greetings to All,
> > >
> > > Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.
> > >
> > > Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:
> > >
> > > "Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."
> > >
> > > Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.
> > >
> > > Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?
> > >
> > > Love & Service,
> > > Brian O.
> > > P62/A31
> > >
> > > cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.
> > >
> > > As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.
> > >
> > > Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA â€Å"Another Prodigal Storyâ€
> > >
> > > Norman Hunt from Darien, CT â€Å"Educated Agnosticâ€
> > >
> > > Earl T from Chicago, IL â€Å"He Sold Himself Shortâ€
> > >
> > > Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA â€Å"Lone Endeavor†(later removed in 2nd printing)
> > >
> > > Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD â€Å"Our Southern Friendâ€
> > >
> > > Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI â€Å"The Fearful Oneâ€
> > >
> > > Clarence S from Cleveland, OH â€Å"Home Brewmeisterâ€
> > >
> > > Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH â€Å"The Rolling Stoneâ€
> > >
> > > Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH â€Å"The Back Sliderâ€
> > >
> > > Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH â€Å"An Alcoholic’s Wife†(non-alcoholic)
> > >
> > > Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH â€Å"The European Drinkerâ€
> > >
> > > Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH â€Å"The Salesmanâ€
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
| 9285|9285|2013-06-29 00:44:58|Omyword|The order of Appendices|
How is the order of each Appendix decided?

For instance in the Third Edition Appendix I is the Twelve Traditions. Appendix II is The Spiritual Experience and III is The Medical View on A.A. (and so on)

My understanding of The Spiritual Experience is that it was the first Appendix, added to the second printing of the First Edition. The Traditions were not official tenets of A.A. until adoption in 1950.

Was The Spiritual Experience Appendix I of the second printing of the First Edition (of Alcoholics Anonymous)? If so what is the reason for the order of the Appendices today?

Joe C., Toronto Canada
| 9286|9286|2013-06-29 00:45:30|Benjamin Knutson|Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th or 7th printing of the Little|
Hello,
In my quest to read a non-hazelden-mucked-with edition of The Little Red Book, I purchased a copy of "The Original 12 Step Book" on Amazon, which claims to be a reprinting of the original Little Red Book. Thanks to Tommy H.'s kind posting of the author's notes to the editions in his collection(http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6358), I have been able to determine that it is in fact a reprinting of either the 1950 or 1951 edition. Internet searching has proven no help in determining which of those two edition's texts I now hold in my hands.
Can any of you tell me any differences between the two editions, that I might suss out exactly which text is reproduced here?
Thanks in advance for the help. and thanks for all your input on AAhistorylovers, this site is awesome

In fellowship and with blessings,
Ben K.
| 9287|9287|2013-06-29 00:47:20|Matt Masterman|Irma Livoni. Letter not an Urban Legend, Suicide probably is the sto|
Dear Brian and group,
Thanks for finding out when Irma Livoni died. I didn't know her middle name but the age
Is probably appropriate so although I can't certify it is the same Irma Livoni, I
will take your word on it as when she died as it was probably the same woman.

I believe people, like the game of telephone have twisted the story to include suicide,
which never was said.

Sybil sponsored her in 1941 as Sybil was put in charge of all the women, and was so happy
when she got sober, got her own apt, and life was going well for her.

Jealousy and being angry at being rejected were two of the reasons for the letter.
The male ego is alive and well in many sober male alcoholics.
What she did or didn't do is irrelevant to AA in 2013 as we have no morality police
for members. But this was 1941' no traditions and women alcoholics usually
Had horrible, horrible low bottoms as it was a stigma to be a female alcoholic,
even more so then a male one back in that time period. Thus why I ask people to
imagine a time when women wore gloves and hats to the movies, and to AA .

The severity of women alcoholics in 1941 was for real low bottom drunks.
There were no traditions in 1941 when that letter was written.
There was no section in the big book about high bottom drunks, no pg 315 (3rd edition)
Talking about "Why we stopped in Time", no stories of
"The bottom came up and hit us"

So regardless if Irma died without AA in 1974 or even earlier
Kicking a hopeless woman alcoholic out of AA in 1941
Was like giving a criminal a death sentence, something AA doesn't do anymore
Thank goodness for us now, but they did back then,
thus the choice of very serious words in Tradition 3
of "Judge, Jury and Executioner"

The letter was real, her suicide was NEVER a part of the story, as explained to
me when Bob and Sybil showed me the actual letter.
So thanks again for clearing that up, when people relay the story.

So letter - NOT an urban legend.
Her leaving AA and getting drunk - NOT an urban legend.
Her, being a low bottom female alcoholic in LA (Sybil being the first one) and not
having a large support group to go to, very real.
AA in LA only having 1 meeting in March 1941 , true.
And only a handful of meetings by Pearl Harbor time, true.
They didn't have the luxury of 2000+ meetings a week in So.Cal like we have in 2013-true.
AA members not feeling like they had any right to fight for their membership,
As no traditions existed. If you started a meeting, Sybil said you owned it. - TRUE

Her committing suicide, never told by me, by Sybil or by Bob in relating
The importance of the 3rd tradition, and using that letter as an example for why we have
a 3rd tradition.

So the word SUICIDE was never told to me, or said by me.

if someone added that to my story, told in several places on the internet, where I had no
Control over editing it, or proof reading it, IS probably as you said, an urban legend,
But as I said before, the story or what it was like in 1941, and being able to
"Kick someone out of AA or tell them in letter form that their membership terminated. - TRUE

When Sybil and Bob Corwin showed me the actual letter from the self appointed
Protection squad from the AA group, Sybil said that Irma left the group, did get drunk
when everyone of the men in that little turned on her and told her that she wasn't welcome
in AA anymore and her membership terminated.

Sybil said she tried to find out what happened but most of the men had joined the armed services
after sending her the letter on dec 5th 1941, and when she got it on the 8th we were at war, and
People left town, enlisted, moved to be closer to family and Sybil never told me that she
committed suicide. Getting that horrible letter was bad enough, and without AA and your
Friends turning on you, who wouldn't feel like the person died inside, but it was never said that she shot herself, or hung herself, so suicide wasn't part of the story,
People acting like they were judge jury and executioner was something that happened and why Bill used those words in the 12 and 12 , Tradition 3.

I am glad you found out when she died,
But the letter is not an urban legend. I did see it
And with the original signatures on it.

Wether she ever got sober anywhere outside of AA was never known to Sybil.
Sybil was the sec of the LA central office for 12 yrs, and she went to meetings all over Southern
Calif, as well as all over the world, even speaking at the 1985 AA convention in Canada.
I know because I drove her and Bob to meetings from 1984 until each of them died.
Sybil 14 yrs later at age 90 and sober 57 yrs. Bob for 24 yrs until 2008 at 44 yrs.
Since she was pretty well connected, If Irma had come back, even years later while Sybil
went from her first yr from march 21 st 1941 until Sybil died at age 90, 56 yrs later,
She would have most probably known if Irma came back to AA .

Much AA love to you and to this wonderful group.

When I tell this story from now on, I'll add that as far as what was known,
She never came back to AA and did not commit suicide, but died in 1974 at age 67.

Matt
561-740-9353
Pupmasters@Yahoo.Com


=====Auto response=====
I get so much spam, that emailing me does not guarantee that I'll read what you send me. If you want to make sure I know about it, please call me and let me know you've sent me an email. I know it sounds wired to ask you to call,
Even if it is to just say "Matt I sent you an email dated _____ with a subject line of _____"For Matt from _____(your name)_____"
But if you do that it helps me find your email among 175 spams per day.
Thank You.

To reach me at home 561-740-9353
Leave a msg there if you have sent me an email,
Or keep calling until you get me, if you'd like to speak live.
Thank You for understanding,
Matt
>
> 3a Re: Irma Livoni suicide by "B" kochbrian2249
> Messages R

> Re: Irma Livoni suicide
> Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:18 pm (PDT) . Posted by: "B" kochbrian2249 Friends,
>
> With the help of Charles K, i have located the grave of our friend Irma Craig (Brown/Livoni). Born 16 Aug 1907, died 24 Aug 1974. She is buried in Inglewood Cemetery(an oasis in the city, according to the website), Inglewood CA. Lot Myrtle, Plot 114. There is a marker so someone either sprung for that or she had made prior arrangements. There is a map available at the cemetery website, www.inglewoodparkcemetery.com.
>
> Maybe one of our members in the Los Angeles area could pay respects to this woman for us. As has been reported here, it appears the story of her suicide as the result of her ostracization is an AA urban myth. She lived at the very least a long life, even after the fateful 1941 letter. We can only hope it was a sober one.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Brian K
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Baileygc23@... wrote:
> >
> > In 1980, they tried to throw me out of a meeting. I told them they could not throw me out as I did not vote to throw me out. They dumped the coffee pot, and I found out they went to another room and started a new meeting. I gave up. I did not realize they were talking for themselves and not for AA. If it wasn't for one of the people talking to me over the later months, I would have stayed away from AA for good. I did stay away for almost two months, and was talked into going to a different meeting by a person with about four month's sobriety. I never went back to that meeting or to the other local meeting that a lot of the members also attended. Over the years I realized that the other groups in the local area considered that group as a hard group. So the actions of the Los Angeles group does not surprise me. But their leaving a paper trail does.
> >
>
> Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (18) . Top ^
> Visit Your Group >
> View All Topics >
> Create New Topic >
> 5 New Members >
> We are making changes based on your feedback, Thank you ! Submit Feedback >
> The Yahoo! Groups Product Blog Check it out! >
> CHANGE SETTINGS > TERMS OF USE > UNSUBSCRIBE >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9288|9271|2013-06-30 14:04:36|J. Lobdell|RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA|
My best regards to you also -- and btw there are other Springfield directories up to 1946 with the same listing. Anyhow, a pleasure to be back in touch with you. Some of the Works Publishing list people are third-party entries as you know -- Bill R.’s five-year-old nephew Andrew for example -- so that list may itself be subject to minor errors.


Sent from Windows Mail


From: jax760
Sent: ‎June‎ ‎29‎, ‎2013 ‎12‎:‎44‎ ‎AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?



Thank You Jared,

Based on your citation of the Springfiled City Directory of "37" I will revise the first 100 list.

Warm regards,

John B

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" wrote:
>
> Census records; grave-markers; city directories; correspondence with his second wife’s cousin -- Works Publishing would list him as Robert possibly for the same reason you would list a friend Bob as Robert -- as to the link, try the 1937 Springfield Directory listing Roland A Furlong at Empire Stationers at 305 Bridge St [I guess it’s 305: the print is very small, but it’s certainly 3[-]5 Bridge St.
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
>
> From: John Barton
> Sent: ‎June‎ ‎24‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎27‎ ‎PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?
>
>
>
> With all due respect to my good friend Jared I still don't see any hard evidence that we are talking about the same people. What harder evidence do we have...addresses, family members, employment status...? Why would Works Publishing list him as "Robert" instead of Roland...why not Bob Furlong if that was the name he went by? Is there anything that links Roland to Empire Stationers 305 Bridge Street?
>
>
> John B
>
> ________________________________
> From: J. Lobdell
> To: "AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?
>
>
> His original [birth] name was Roland Arthur. He was born in Columbia SC in 1882 and is listed as the son of two people who married after his birth. My suggestion [in a note in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY, Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, April-May-June 2009] was that his mother had been reading Sidney Lanier and his father preferred the name ”Bob” to the “chivalric” “Roland Arthur.” He died in Springfield in 1946, but is buried, as are both of his wives, in Laurel Hill Cemetery in St. Louis
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
>
> From: jax760
> Sent: ‎June‎ ‎19‎, ‎2013 ‎9‎:‎15‎ ‎AM
> To: mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Correction on the Man From Springfield, MA?
>
>
>
> Just an FYI - The reason the name "Robert" is "incorrectly given" is because the official documents of Works Publishing list "Robert" as a shareholder in the corporation. Correspondence on file in the archives in NY shows he himself used the nickname "Bob" ..he signed the letters to Ruth "Bob". Would love to hear something definitive re Roland vs. Robert?
>
> Regarding Darien CT - this was the home town of Norman Hunt - (Educated Agnostic)would you elaborate on Robert/Roland's connection to this group/town?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonh B
>
> --- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" wrote:
> >
> > Please refer to messages 78883 and 7888 for confirmation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com, Brian O'Shea wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Warm Greetings to All,
> > >
> > > Several weeks ago a member here mentioned a book written/edited by Fiona Dodd titled "The Authors". The book has short biographies of the men and women who wrote about their recovery from alcoholism in the pioneering days of our twelve step program. It was purchased because of interest in A.A. History and there was a man from Springfield, MA - a city I went to High School in and also got drunk in.
> > >
> > > Fiona Dodd states the man's name is Roland Arthur "Bob" F. of Springfield, Massachusetts. And the opening paragraph reads:
> > >
> > > "Recent research shows that the author of this story was probably Roland Arthur F. (1882-1946) from Springfield, Massachusetts (who was somewhat confusingly nicknamed "Bob', so his name is sometimes incorrectly given in A.A. documents as Robert.) And to add to the confusion, earlier A.A. historians sometimes identified the author of this story as another man with the same last name, Ralph F. (1891-1966) of Pittsfield, Massachusetts. But Ralph's only daughter Eloise was born in February, 1911, and the author of this story had a daughter who (he said) was born in June."
> > >
> > > Ralph's story is "Another Prodigal Story" pg.357 1st edition, and is believed to have been helped by Hank P. upon leaving a hospital in New York for the treatment of alcoholism. He also is believed to have started the group in Darien, CT.
> > >
> > > Is this creditable evidence to change the list below or is there evidence I'm not aware of?
> > >
> > > Love & Service,
> > > Brian O.
> > > P62/A31
> > >
> > > cc'd: Bobbi P. Area 31 Archivist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Below are most, if not all, the people who had their stories printed in the 1st edition who were NOT from Akron or NY.
> > >
> > > As best as I can determine five were from Cleveland - not just one.
> > >
> > > Ralph Furlong from Springfield, MA â€Å"Another Prodigal Storyâ€
> > >
> > > Norman Hunt from Darien, CT â€Å"Educated Agnosticâ€
> > >
> > > Earl T from Chicago, IL â€Å"He Sold Himself Shortâ€
> > >
> > > Pat Cooper from Los Angeles, CA â€Å"Lone Endeavor†(later removed in 2nd printing)
> > >
> > > Fitz Mayo from Cumberstone, MD â€Å"Our Southern Friendâ€
> > >
> > > Archie Trowbridge from Grosse Point (Detroit), MI â€Å"The Fearful Oneâ€
> > >
> > > Clarence S from Cleveland, OH â€Å"Home Brewmeisterâ€
> > >
> > > Lloyd Tate from Cleveland, OH â€Å"The Rolling Stoneâ€
> > >
> > > Walter Bray from Cleveland, OH â€Å"The Back Sliderâ€
> > >
> > > Marie Bray from Cleveland, OH â€Å"An Alcoholic’s Wife†(non-alcoholic)
> > >
> > > Joe Doppler from Cleveland, OH â€Å"The European Drinkerâ€
> > >
> > > Bob Oviatt from Richfield, OH â€Å"The Salesmanâ€
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9289|9285|2013-06-30 14:04:50|Tom Hickcox|Re: The order of Appendices|
On 6/28/2013 09:59, Omyword wrote:
> How is the order of each Appendix decided?
>
> For instance in the Third Edition Appendix I is the Twelve Traditions. Appendix II is The Spiritual Experience and III is The Medical View on A.A. (and so on)
>
> My understanding of The Spiritual Experience is that it was the first Appendix, added to the second printing of the First Edition. The Traditions were not official tenets of A.A. until adoption in 1950.
>
> Was The Spiritual Experience Appendix I of the second printing of the First Edition (of Alcoholics Anonymous)? If so what is the reason for the order of the Appendices today?
>
> Joe C., Toronto Canada

My facsimile of the 1st printing/1st edition has one appendix titled
"The Alcoholic Foundation." In my 5th printing, "The Alcoholic
Foundation" is labelled "Appendix I" and "Appendix II" is not titled.
We do not find the title "Spiritual Experience" until the 1st printing
of the 2nd edition, which has six appendices:

I. The A.A. Tradition
II. Spiritual Experience
III. The Medical View on A.A.
IV. The Lasker Award
V. The Religious View on A.A.
VI. How to get in Touch with A.A.

The fourth edition added an additional appendix, The Twelve Traditions,
Short Form

I did not look at the appendices closely enough to see if they had
changed over the editions/printing.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9290|9290|2013-06-30 14:05:03|Tom Hickcox|OffList: [AAHistoryLovers] Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th or|
I will get back with you before the weekend is over.

Using the Author's Notes was a quick and simple way to distinguish early
editions. Once it was established, we have to go to the text.

I appreciate the complement.

Tommy
| 9291|9291|2013-06-30 14:05:14|Tom Hickcox|PS: [AAHistoryLovers] Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th or 7th |
I am not sure, but I think if the book's copyright is Coll-Webb, it
hasn't been changed by Hazelden.

They also made a number of changes to the 24Hr Book, mainly rendering it
gender neutral.

Tommy
| 9292|9292|2013-06-30 14:05:19|Recovery Girl|What became of Hal S. of San Diego?|
I have heard and read that Hal S. was instrumental in bringing the message
of A.A. to San Diego. Did he stay sober? What is his story?

--RecoveryGirl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9293|9291|2013-07-02 23:02:01|James Bliss|Re: PS: [AAHistoryLovers] Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th or |
Only Webster was making changed to the Little Red Book prior to the
sale/transfer to Hazelden. I believe that early in the transfer there
were no changes by Hazelden, which would make sense since they wanted to
print and sell them to cover their costs (my personal opinion, not based
on historic fact).

Interestingly, I have a copy of the Little Red Book with no printing
dates with Hazelden on the title page and Copyright 1957, International
Copyright 1957 by Coll-Webb Company. I would speculate this occurred
shortly after the transfer. Interestingly there is no other date in the
books other than the 1957 copyright which was not standard practice for
Coll-Webb (they dated each of the printings - later printings, or just
had a revised copyright date - earlier printings) but has become
standard practice by Hazelden. I have a recent copy from Hazelden which
only indicates Revised Edition, 1986 Hazelden Foundation although I am
certain it was printed in the early 2000s.

Jim

On 6/29/2013 6:58 AM, Tom Hickcox wrote:
>
> I am not sure, but I think if the book's copyright is Coll-Webb, it
> hasn't been changed by Hazelden.
>
> They also made a number of changes to the 24Hr Book, mainly rendering it
> gender neutral.
>
> Tommy
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9294|9292|2013-07-02 23:02:10|Charles Knapp|Re: What became of Hal S. of San Diego?|
Hello Group
 
Here is what I have on this early AA Pioneer.
 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Harold “Hal” Mayor Silverton
Born: 7/22/1895  Died: 10/7/1959
Hal dried out in Los Angeles General Hospital psychiatric ward January 15 – 19, 1940.  There he met Johnny Howe who was helping with Kaye Millers meeting in Los Angeles. Hal read the Big Book while in the hospital. Attended Kaye Miller’s meetings on 1/18/1940 and never drank again. Kaye always called Hal their first success. He took A.A. into the Lincoln Heights jail and would travel all over the LA area doing 12 step calls.
Hal moved to San Diego where he didn’t stop working with others and held the first meeting there on November 7, 1940.  The meeting was held in an apartment at 3229Adams Street. Hal and his wife had a vacation home locate at 234 Clarissa Avenue in the town of Avalon on Catalina Islandwhere he started holding meetings in 1944.
In early 1939, Kaye Miller traveled to New York to get help for her husband.  Bill W gave her a copy of the Big Book which she read on her trip back home.  Kaye vowed to spread the word about AA even if her husband didn’t get sober.  After starting the first meeting in LA and working with drunks for several years, she ended up giving Johnny Howe her Big Book. It eventually was given to Hal where he kept it until he died.  In 1977, his widow Estelle gave the book to the Central Office Archives in Los Angles.
Yes Hal died sober with 17 years, 8 months and 19 days of sobriety.  Both he and his wife are buried on Catalina Island.
Hope this helps
Charles from Wisconsin


>________________________________
>From: Recovery Girl <12steprecoverygirl@gmail.com>
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 10:30 PM
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] What became of Hal S. of San Diego?
>

>I have heard and read that Hal S. was instrumental in bringing the message
>of A.A. to San Diego. Did he stay sober? What is his story?
>
>--RecoveryGirl
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9295|9295|2013-07-03 11:45:58|stephenw968|New book on Frank Buchman|
Members might be interested to know about THE SPIRITUAL VISION OF FRANK BUCHMAN, by Philip Boobbyer, just published by Penn State University Press .

Not too much on AA per se, but good background on Buchman and the Oxford Group.

StephenW
| 9296|9291|2013-07-04 22:35:06|Tom Hickcox|Re: PS: [AAHistoryLovers] Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th or |
On 6/30/2013 20:22, James Bliss wrote:
> Only Webster was making changed to the Little Red Book prior to the
> sale/transfer to Hazelden. I believe that early in the transfer there
> were no changes by Hazelden, which would make sense since they wanted to
> print and sell them to cover their costs (my personal opinion, not based
> on historic fact).

It is also said that Dr. Bob had a lot of input. There seem to be a lot
less text changes after the 1950 printing. Dr. Bob died in 1950.
Coincidence?

Here are the copyright dates for this series.

Printing number* Copyright Date

1-5 1946
6 1946-1950
7 1950
8-9/11** 1951
12-25 1957

*Printing numbers weren't assigned until the 11th printing.
** There is no "10th" printing.

>
> Interestingly, I have a copy of the Little Red Book with no printing
> dates with Hazelden on the title page and Copyright 1957, International
> Copyright 1957 by Coll-Webb Company. I would speculate this occurred
> shortly after the transfer. Interestingly there is no other date in the
> books other than the 1957 copyright which was not standard practice for
> Coll-Webb (they dated each of the printings - later printings, or just
> had a revised copyright date - earlier printings) but has become
> standard practice by Hazelden. I have a recent copy from Hazelden which
> only indicates Revised Edition, 1986 Hazelden Foundation although I am
> certain it was printed in the early 2000s.

In my mind there are two series of printings of the LRB. There is the
Coll-Webb series which started in 1946 and went thru the last printing
in 1970.

The other series is the smaller format, the same size as the 24Hr Books,
and were all published by Hazelden. My interest has been in the ones
published before the 1970 Hazelden copyright.

None of these early LRBs had printing numbers or dates, but there are
clues that point to dates. The first small format, the one with rounded
corners, has a zip code. These were instituted in mid-1963. ISBN were
used starting in the late fifties. This early series with only the 1957
copyright has seven different books, four with ISBN, and can be assigned
an order of printing that makes sense.

One can do the same with the Hazelden printings of the 24Hr Book. It
started in the pre-zip code era.

The introduction to the 50th anniversary printing of the LRB has a
decent account of its history. It was supposed to be a facsimile of the
original printing, but somehow they copied the 1950 printing.

Hazelden took it upon themselves to "improve" the two books. This
appears to be what IMHO is a dumbing down of the text and rendering it
more gender neutral. I haven't tried to keep track of the later
printings, except the commemorative ones.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9297|9286|2013-07-04 22:36:56|gcdavid1|Re: Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th or 7th printing of the Li|
Just looked at my copies of the 1950 and 51 LRB's and with the exception of the dates on the title and copyright pages, appear to be exactally the same, with 159 numbered pages each and no additional footnotes that I could see. The 1950 copy has a copyright date of 1946-1950, and the 1951 states copyright 1950. Both state International copyright 1950. Interesting to note that the wording of the "Twelfth Step" still reads "having had a spiritual experience", which we know was changed to "awakening" in the 1941 1st edition, 2nd printing Big Book. This was not changed to "spiritual awakening" in the Little Red Book until the 1957 12th printing. I've seen many pamphlets and local pieces from the midwest, where I know there was resistance to this change published in the 40's with 12th step reading spiritual "experience". The 1955 11th printing of the Little Red Book is the longest holdout to that change I have seen. By 1957 the SECOND edition Big Book was on it's second printing!
David
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin Knutson" wrote:
>
> Hello,
> In my quest to read a non-hazelden-mucked-with edition of The Little Red Book, I purchased a copy of "The Original 12 Step Book" on Amazon, which claims to be a reprinting of the original Little Red Book. Thanks to Tommy H.'s kind posting of the author's notes to the editions in his collection(http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6358), I have been able to determine that it is in fact a reprinting of either the 1950 or 1951 edition. Internet searching has proven no help in determining which of those two edition's texts I now hold in my hands.
> Can any of you tell me any differences between the two editions, that I might suss out exactly which text is reproduced here?
> Thanks in advance for the help. and thanks for all your input on AAhistorylovers, this site is awesome
>
> In fellowship and with blessings,
> Ben K.
>
| 9298|9298|2013-07-05 12:57:03|Tom Hickcox|Correction: [AAHistoryLovers] Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th|
On 7/4/2013 09:36, Tom Hickcox wrote:
> On 6/30/2013 20:22, James Bliss wrote:
>> Only Webster was making changed to the Little Red Book prior to the
>> sale/transfer to Hazelden. I believe that early in the transfer there
>> were no changes by Hazelden, which would make sense since they wanted to
>> print and sell them to cover their costs (my personal opinion, not based
>> on historic fact).
> It is also said that Dr. Bob had a lot of input. There seem to be a lot
> less text changes after the 1950 printing. Dr. Bob died in 1950.
> Coincidence?
>
> Here are the copyright dates for this series.
>
> Printing number* Copyright Date
>
> 1-5 1946
> 6 1946-1950
> 7 1950
> 8-9/11** 1951
> 12-25 1957
>
> *Printing numbers weren't assigned until the 11th printing.
> ** There is no "10th" printing.
>
>> Interestingly, I have a copy of the Little Red Book with no printing
>> dates with Hazelden on the title page and Copyright 1957, International
>> Copyright 1957 by Coll-Webb Company. I would speculate this occurred
>> shortly after the transfer. Interestingly there is no other date in the
>> books other than the 1957 copyright which was not standard practice for
>> Coll-Webb (they dated each of the printings - later printings, or just
>> had a revised copyright date - earlier printings) but has become
>> standard practice by Hazelden. I have a recent copy from Hazelden which
>> only indicates Revised Edition, 1986 Hazelden Foundation although I am
>> certain it was printed in the early 2000s.
> In my mind there are two series of printings of the LRB. There is the
> Coll-Webb series which started in 1946 and went thru the last printing
> in 1970.
>
> The other series is the smaller format, the same size as the 24Hr Books,
> and were all published by Hazelden. My interest has been in the ones
> published before the 1970 Hazelden copyright.
>
> None of these early LRBs had printing numbers or dates, but there are
> clues that point to dates. The first small format, the one with rounded
> corners, has a zip code. These were instituted in mid-1963. ISBN were
> used starting in the late*_fifties_*. (correction: this should be sixties.) This early series with only the 1957
> copyright has seven different books, four with ISBN, and can be assigned
> an order of printing that makes sense.
>
> One can do the same with the Hazelden printings of the 24Hr Book. It
> started in the pre-zip code era.
>
> The introduction to the 50th anniversary printing of the LRB has a
> decent account of its history. It was supposed to be a facsimile of the
> original printing, but somehow they copied the 1950 printing.
>
> Hazelden took it upon themselves to "improve" the two books. This
> appears to be what IMHO is a dumbing down of the text and rendering it
> more gender neutral. I haven't tried to keep track of the later
> printings, except the commemorative ones.
>
> Tommy H in Danville
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9299|799|2013-07-06 23:12:49|deloab|Bill W.|
Did Bill Wilson ever consider becoming a trustee of either the Alcoholic Foundation or its successor, the General Service Board (1954-forward).

I know that Dr. Bob was a trustee beginning in 1938 and that B.W. was on an advisory board at the same time.

But why wasn't Bill ever a (voting) trustee? Or chairman, for that matter?

Might someone know?

Thanks.
| 9300|9286|2013-07-06 23:13:08|Tom Hickcox|Re: Is "The Original 12 Step Book" the 6th or 7th printing of the Li|
On 7/4/2013 13:25, gcdavid1 wrote:
> Just looked at my copies of the 1950 and 51 LRB's and with the exception of the dates on the title and copyright pages, appear to be exactally the same, with 159 numbered pages each and no additional footnotes that I could see. The 1950 copy has a copyright date of 1946-1950, and the 1951 states copyright 1950. Both state International copyright 1950. Interesting to note that the wording of the "Twelfth Step" still reads "having had a spiritual experience", which we know was changed to "awakening" in the 1941 1st edition, 2nd printing Big Book. This was not changed to "spiritual awakening" in the Little Red Book until the 1957 12th printing. I've seen many pamphlets and local pieces from the midwest, where I know there was resistance to this change published in the 40's with 12th step reading spiritual "experience". The 1955 11th printing of the Little Red Book is the longest holdout to that change I have seen. By 1957 the SECOND edition Big Book was on it's secon
> d printing!
> David

An argument can be made that the pamphlets you mentioned that did not
show the change came from Webster's lesson plans that became the LRB,
particularly the Detroit/Washington ones. I made some of these
arguments in a post to the list several years ago, but there was very
little interest shown.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9301|9301|2013-07-06 23:13:16|elginsv|4th Edition BB's numbers questions.|
Does anyone know how many books are currently printed each printing of the BB ?
Would anyone know the total number of BB's ever printed ? Thanks
| 9302|799|2013-07-09 15:19:36|Arthur S|Re: Bill W.|
Bill W served as a Class B Trustee from April 1949 to January 1951.



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of deloab@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 3:44 PM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W.

Did Bill Wilson ever consider becoming a trustee of either the Alcoholic
Foundation or its successor, the General Service Board (1954-forward).

I know that Dr. Bob was a trustee beginning in 1938 and that B.W. was on an
advisory board at the same time.

But why wasn't Bill ever a (voting) trustee? Or chairman, for that matter?

Might someone know?

Thanks.
_.___



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| 9303|9303|2013-07-11 13:31:13|martinb0858|Question on a 3rd edition dust cover|
I have a 3rd edition 3rd printing that has a dust cover with yellow letters on the spine and not the normal white letters.

Does anyone know why there was this change? I have never seen another one.
| 9304|9304|2013-07-11 13:31:43|handlebarick|Longtimer passing|
Greetings Glenn, Today, July 10, 2013 still active member Tom. D., Lima, Oh past away at the age of 99 with 63 yrs sobriety. He and Mel B., Toledo were friends and both spoke in Wapakoneta, OH in 2010 when they both, in April, reached 60 yrs. Barefoot Bill recorded that event. Tom was a General Service Representative in 1953 when that responsibilty started. He was at both the 1955 St Louis Convention and one of three from that event to return in 2005 for the 50th anniversary Spiritual Homecoming. He will be missed. Just wanted to pass this (it) on.

Thanks in advance, Rick S., Wapakoneta, OH
| 9305|9303|2013-07-12 12:36:30|Jayson Slade|Re: Question on a 3rd edition dust cover|
Sun faded, maybe? Or possibly "highlighted" years ago. Just my opinion
because an entirely different printer's process would be virtually
impossible on paper to be used to add another color. It's not like the
cloth covers, where the printer could simply "use up" what old cloth they
had left over. (ie the red 1st/2nd and the light blue, dark blue, and green
1st/3rd-5th.)
-Jayson in Gulfport

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013, martinb0858 wrote:

> **
>
>
> I have a 3rd edition 3rd printing that has a dust cover with yellow
> letters on the spine and not the normal white letters.
>
> Does anyone know why there was this change? I have never seen another one.
>
>
>


--
Sent from Gmail Mobile


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9306|9303|2013-07-12 12:36:36|Tom Hickcox|Re: Question on a 3rd edition dust cover|
On 7/10/2013 23:19, martinb0858 wrote:
> I have a 3rd edition 3rd printing that has a dust cover with yellow letters on the spine and not the normal white letters.
>
> Does anyone know why there was this change? I have never seen another one.
Does the back flap have the code for the printing 150M-8/77(A)?

None of my 3/3rds have yellow like yours. Perhaps it was exposed to the
sun over time.

A number of my 2nd Editions spines show darkening but not yellowing,
more a brown or tan.

Tommy H in Danville
| 9307|9303|2013-07-16 14:04:13|Martin B|Re: Question on a 3rd edition dust cover|
Having looked closer it has been colored over.
I guess the old eye sight just isn't as good as it use to be!
Thankfully they have the Big Book and 12 & 12 on audio these days!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9308|9301|2013-07-16 14:04:24|martinb0858|Re: 4th Edition BB's numbers questions.|
This link to a book dealer has the number of first and second editions
printed.

http://www.abookman.com/Big%20Book%20For%20Sale.htm

AA Press release

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/press.cfm?thisyear=2010-01-01&PressID=1


June 20, 2005

(TORONTO, ONTARIO) The 25 millionth copy of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous will be presented to Jill Brown, warden of San Quentin prison, at the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous which takes place in Toronto June 30 - July 3.
...
Previous recipients of milestone copies of the Big Book have included United States President Richard Nixon (the one millionth), U.S. Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare Joseph Califano (two millionth), the widow of Dr. John (Jack) L. Norris, Class A nonalcoholic trustee and former A.A.W.S. Board Chairman (15 millionth) and the Al-Anon Family Groups (twenty millionth).


Right now it is estimated that 1 million copies a year are published which puts the number up around 32 ~ 33 million printed.

It is not the most printed book, that is the Bible, and then Tolken.
It is believed by many to be the second most read book, behind the Bible.

Hope this lends some insight.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "elginsv" wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how many books are currently printed each printing of the BB ?
> Would anyone know the total number of BB's ever printed ? Thanks
>
| 9309|9309|2013-07-16 14:04:47|bernadette macleod|"To Employers"|
On page 140 of my 3rd Edition Big Book, the author refers to 'a prominent doctor in Chicago who told me of cases where pressure of the spinal fluid actually ruptured the brain.' Can anyone tell me who the doctor would be and perhaps a bit more about the author's writing of the chapter "To Employers"? Our study group believes the author to be Hank P.

Bernadette M. 20/11/90
King City Group
Canada


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9310|9301|2013-07-16 14:04:53|martinb0858|Re: 4th Edition BB's numbers questions.|
From the Fourth Edition of the Big Book

First Edition 300K
Second Edition 1,150,000
Third Edition 11,000,000

Estimate from non AA source for 4th Edition

1,000,000 per year.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "elginsv" wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how many books are currently printed each printing of the BB ?
> Would anyone know the total number of BB's ever printed ? Thanks
>
| 9311|9272|2013-07-16 14:05:03|B|Re: Charles B. Towns Ph.D.|
One of the three books that Charles B Towns wrote, Habits that Handicap, is available for listening, either on line or for download. It is interesting to hear his views on drug addiction/abuse, as well has his feelings on treatment of alcoholics (from a medical standpoint). His ideas on the depths that an alcoholic will fall to, or go to, to continue to fuel his obsessive need for alcohol parallel many of the ideas contained in the Big Book, in the early chapters of the book. You can draw your own conclusions, but it is a great listen, 100 years old and still relevant. http://archive.org/details/habits_handicap_1105_librivox, is the site for the download

Blessings,
Brian

have not yet found his burial site, but have data coming in a few weeks hopefully.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:
>
> I I am curious what publication, or where in print he is given credit for a PhD? In his obituary, dated 21 Feb 1947, he is C.B. Towns, and is identified as a layman in the body of the obituary.
>
> In a very interesting article in the June 6th 1965 New York Times, "Edward B Towns, 70 year old son of the founder,, recalled that his father, also a layman, had become interested in narocotics addiction shortly afte the turn of the century....."
>
> The article
>
> The five story yellow brick building where the Charles B. Towns Hospital has treated alcoholics and narcotics addicts for more than 50 years closed its doors last week.
>
> The 50-bed institution at 293 Central Park West was a casualty of other detoxification methods, its inability to qualify for Blue Cross payments, and the rigors of a new Hospital Department code. It had pioneered in the "drying out" and "tapering off" process, always regarding alcoholism as a sickness.
>
> Wide Range of Patients
> The hospital began in 1909 at 119 West 81st Street, and in 1914 moved to Central Park West.
> "No place to go after this" one of the last four patients said "Guess I'll just have to lay off the booze."
> Problem drinkers who became patients included the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill W; a Nobel Prize winner in literature, clergymen, actors and actresses, bankers, writers, professional people, and cab drivers.
>
> There was a special five-day rate of $125 for AA members, but the others paid from $205 to $350 a week for private or semi-private rooms. The payments covered all services, medication, nursing, psychiatric consultation, hydrotherapy, and massage.
>
> Edward B. Towns, 70 year old son of the founder, recalled that his father, also a layman, had become interested in narocotics addiction shortly after the turn of the century and had won for his methods the endorsement of leading physicians. He found that many narcotic addicts also had a history of alcoholism.
>
> Charles B Towns, who died Feb 21st, 1947 (actually Feb 20th)at the age of 85, framed the Boylan bill to regulate narcotics, which the State Legislature enacted in 1914.
>
> In 1908 Mr. Towns studied the use of opium in China. He opened four hospitals, and in 1909 attended the first International Opium Conference in Shanghai. On his return he demonstrated his treatment at Bellevue Hospital, and contributed articles on the subject.
>
> Son Operated Hospital
> His son, a retired infantry colonel who served in both world wars, operated the hospital in its last 21 years. A graduate of Columbia College and the university's law school, he practice law until 1940.
>
> The Towns method in recent years consisted of detoxification in combination with supportive vitamin therapy-the tapering-off process was discontinued 15 years ago. Resident physicians applied the theory that doses of vitamins replaced the vitamins destroyed by liquor.
>
> The treatment for narcotics addicts was based on a carefully timed method of rapid withdrawal. Mr. Towns asserted the only way to treat the intransigent young addict was to place him in custody and teach him a trade or vocation.
>
> "The addict today has no motivation beyond hanging around bop joints, getting on the white stuff," he said. "Unlike the oldtime morphine addict, he's just another junkie hanging around, doing nothing."
>
> The alcoholic, he said, now can be helped through AA and through treatment of the psychic phase of his illness. On the whole, he observed, the alcoholics were "a pretty thankful crowd."
> By Morris Kaplan
>
> As an aside, in a copy of the 1917 Columbia University/College yearbook, Edward B. Towns, with picture included,has nicknames shown of "Opium Eddie" and "Coke", along with a phrase "Blessed are the pure of heart." I am thinking, and hoping, that the nicknames came as a result of his classmates finding out what his father did for a living, rather than his own habits.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Lee wrote:
> >
> > Charles Towns was a  PhD to the same extent that Colonel Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chicken was a Colonel.   You can't prove a negative. Towns never went to college.  He was born in 1862. There were very few PhDs awarded to anyone in the America in the 19th century. 
> > John Lee 
> > Pittsburgh
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
| 9312|9272|2013-07-17 10:30:11|odatbluebird|Re: Charles B. Towns Ph.D.|
Thank you Brian! If anyone is having trouble with the link, just eliminate the final character "," and it will work. :)
http://archive.org/details/habits_handicap_1105_librivox

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:

>
> One of the three books that Charles B Towns wrote, Habits that Handicap, is available for listening, either on line or for download. It is interesting to hear his views on drug addiction/abuse, as well has his feelings on treatment of alcoholics (from a medical standpoint). His ideas on the depths that an alcoholic will fall to, or go to, to continue to fuel his obsessive need for alcohol parallel many of the ideas contained in the Big Book, in the early chapters of the book. You can draw your own conclusions, but it is a great listen, 100 years old and still relevant. http://archive.org/details/habits_handicap_1105_librivox, is the site for the download
>
> Blessings,
> Brian
>
> have not yet found his burial site, but have data coming in a few weeks hopefully.
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:
> >
> > I I am curious what publication, or where in print he is given credit for a PhD? In his obituary, dated 21 Feb 1947, he is C.B. Towns, and is identified as a layman in the body of the obituary.
> >
> > In a very interesting article in the June 6th 1965 New York Times, "Edward B Towns, 70 year old son of the founder,, recalled that his father, also a layman, had become interested in narocotics addiction shortly afte the turn of the century....."
> >
> > The article
> >
> > The five story yellow brick building where the Charles B. Towns Hospital has treated alcoholics and narcotics addicts for more than 50 years closed its doors last week.
> >
> > The 50-bed institution at 293 Central Park West was a casualty of other detoxification methods, its inability to qualify for Blue Cross payments, and the rigors of a new Hospital Department code. It had pioneered in the "drying out" and "tapering off" process, always regarding alcoholism as a sickness.
> >
> > Wide Range of Patients
> > The hospital began in 1909 at 119 West 81st Street, and in 1914 moved to Central Park West.
> > "No place to go after this" one of the last four patients said "Guess I'll just have to lay off the booze."
> > Problem drinkers who became patients included the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill W; a Nobel Prize winner in literature, clergymen, actors and actresses, bankers, writers, professional people, and cab drivers.
> >
> > There was a special five-day rate of $125 for AA members, but the others paid from $205 to $350 a week for private or semi-private rooms. The payments covered all services, medication, nursing, psychiatric consultation, hydrotherapy, and massage.
> >
> > Edward B. Towns, 70 year old son of the founder, recalled that his father, also a layman, had become interested in narocotics addiction shortly after the turn of the century and had won for his methods the endorsement of leading physicians. He found that many narcotic addicts also had a history of alcoholism.
> >
> > Charles B Towns, who died Feb 21st, 1947 (actually Feb 20th)at the age of 85, framed the Boylan bill to regulate narcotics, which the State Legislature enacted in 1914.
> >
> > In 1908 Mr. Towns studied the use of opium in China. He opened four hospitals, and in 1909 attended the first International Opium Conference in Shanghai. On his return he demonstrated his treatment at Bellevue Hospital, and contributed articles on the subject.
> >
> > Son Operated Hospital
> > His son, a retired infantry colonel who served in both world wars, operated the hospital in its last 21 years. A graduate of Columbia College and the university's law school, he practice law until 1940.
> >
> > The Towns method in recent years consisted of detoxification in combination with supportive vitamin therapy-the tapering-off process was discontinued 15 years ago. Resident physicians applied the theory that doses of vitamins replaced the vitamins destroyed by liquor.
> >
> > The treatment for narcotics addicts was based on a carefully timed method of rapid withdrawal. Mr. Towns asserted the only way to treat the intransigent young addict was to place him in custody and teach him a trade or vocation.
> >
> > "The addict today has no motivation beyond hanging around bop joints, getting on the white stuff,"