9715|9644|2014-01-01 17:20:04|Shakey Mike|Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson -- Union Theological Seminary|
I have been to Stepping Stones and have seen the books that Bill and Lois had in their library. I find it hard to believe that he just skipped through them to come up the ideas he presented in the books,and articles he authored. Unless proved,everything referred to on this topic is just conjecture. I need to see the proof. Is it written, by Bill, in any Grapevine article or letter or on tape,by Bill or Lois, that he skimmed the books that have been mentioned in these postings? I know that Bill started but never finished many projects that concerned him business wise(i.e. becoming a stock broker, or an attorney,or putting Dupont out of business with Honor’s polish), but to say that he did or did not read any book must be verified or it is  just an opinion. Before t.v.,i-phone’s and computers, people had more time to read ,write letters on stationary and to talk face to face with others. The world was less hectic then or so it seemed. Perhaps someone in their 80’s or 90’s can tell us what it was like during that time period
As Clara Peller said,”Where’s the beef?” 
Yours In Service,
Shakey Mike G.
| 9716|9644|2014-01-02 05:55:27|dd49c91068e4ec80b5b4c20cd4c4c42d|Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson -- Union Theological Seminary|
As a long time reader of this group and a rare contributer I feel compelled to chime in on what Mike just posted:

While it is feasible that Bill may have been a skimmer no "beef" was shown. This is not the first time comments in this group have leaned more toward conjecture than any real credible truth. There is a great book called Don't you believe it by A.J. Hoover that would be worth a skim for anyone interested in how to better analyze the way people present fact and fiction

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-you-believe-Arlie-Hoover/dp/0802425313

| 9717|9644|2014-01-02 05:56:33|mitchell_k_archivist|Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson -- Union Theological Seminary|
I can't say anything about specific titles but Lois did talk about Bill's voracious thirst for knowledge and his reading habits. I commented to Lois many times about all of the books upstairs and that it would take me decades to read them all. She said that Bill had read at least most of them at one point or another. Many of the books were read before Bill's work with AA really took hold and he was searching.

Bill was always searching and part of that search was research. That's what he did with the business ventures early on and with the Vitamin B and the LSD and the Oxford Group and Spiritualism and so many other interests he had - research to find out and learn. A good part of that research involved reading.

I can't say he finished entire books. According to what Lois told me, he did spend a lot of time reading. Skimming and gleaning the intent and the basics is also reading. I don't have to eat a gallon of ice cream in order for me to state I eat ice cream. I can eat a bowl or it or eat the whole gallon over time. I can taste all kinds of flavors and still be able to say I've eaten all those flavors.

I'll take Lois' word for Bill's having read most of those books in their library. Lois always told me that I could come there any time to sit and read whatever I wanted in the library. However, whenever I went there I usually wanted to spend as much time with her as I could to talk about history. Whenever Nell and I would come to visit, our conversations were so wonderful to me - those two great women WERE part of that history and WERE the history in this student's eyes.

Does it really matter if Bill tasted gallons or cups of ice cream? Bill ate a lot of ice cream as far as I am concerned.
| 9718|9718|2014-01-02 06:17:32|martinb0858|Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker and Ch|
Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker, or for that matter the use of problem drinker, and Charles Durfee's To Drink Or Not To Drink?

Throughout Mr. Durfee's book the use of those words is frequent, I can't remember the use of Dipsomania or Alcoholism through out the text.

Since it was published in 1938 the book could have been available to Bill.

Although there are several other similarities in both Mr. Durfee's book and the Big Book they are radically different treatments.

Any comments?

___________________________________

NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:

Charles H. Durfee, Ph.D., To Drink or Not to Drink (New York: Longmans, Green and Co., 1st edit. August 1937, 2nd edit. January 1938).

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89056352073;view=1up;seq=238

See Preface p. ix -- Charles H. Durfee bases his approach on the ideas of Elwood Worcester, Courtenay Baylor, and Richard Peabody.

His bibliography at the end mentions:

Alfred Adler, Understanding Human Nature
Sigmund Freud, Civilization and Its Discontents
C. G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul


| 9719|9718|2014-01-03 08:04:16|Arthur|Re: Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker an|

The Big Book originally used the term "ex-alcoholic" in the 1st edition to denote when someone stopped drinking and recovered.

In the 11th printing, the term "ex-alcoholic" was changed to "ex-problem drinker" in the basic text and two stories since it was considered inconsistent with the assertion "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic."

Cheers

Arthur

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of martinb0858@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2014 9:34 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker and Charles Durfee's book?

Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker, or for that matter the use of problem drinker, and Charles Durfee's To Drink Or Not To Drink?

Throughout Mr. Durfee's book the use of those words is frequent, I can't remember the use of Dipsomania or Alcoholism through out the text.

Since it was published in 1938 the book could have been available to Bill.

Although there are several other similarities in both Mr. Durfee's book and the Big Book they are radically different treatments.

Any comments?

___________________________________

NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:

Charles H. Durfee, Ph.D., To Drink or Not to Drink (New York: Longmans, Green and Co., 1st edit. August 1937, 2nd edit. January 1938).

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89056352073;view=1up;seq=238

See Preface p. ix -- Charles H. Durfee bases his approach on the ideas of Elwood Worcester, Courtenay Baylor, and Richard Peabody.

His bibliography at the end mentions:

Alfred Adler, Understanding Human Nature
Sigmund Freud, Civilization and Its Discontents
C. G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul

| 9720|9720|2014-01-03 08:34:33|martinb0858|The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
I did a bit of digging into this out of personal interest and here is my summary.

A little research on the Circle and Triangle history Pre Temperance and AA.

The formal name is The Triangle of Solomon. Bill does note in AA Comes of Age concerning the Occult use.

It is used in the Conjuring of the Demonic or Celestial/Angelic spirits. It is in this Triangle that spirits will appear and are forced to obey. Why will it make them obey? Because it has 3 Sacred names of God - Tetragrammaton Primeumaton, and Anaphaxeton one on each side. These translate as Anaphaxeton: One of three Greek divine names that surround the Triangle of Solomon. "Great God of all the Heavenly Hosts." A high holy angel of God, Anaphaxeton was also a name for deity used by Aaron.

Primeumaton: "Thou who art the First and the Last." One of three Greek divine names that surround the Triangle of Solomon.

Tetragrammaton: a Greek word meaning "four-lettered name." Refers to the highest divine Hebrew name of God, YHVH.

The name Michael (Archangel Michael) which is split into 3 sections MI - CHA - EL. This contains the spirit from escaping and compels them to obey. This does not mean in every case they are going to obey you.

The Triangle can be found in the Manuscript "The Goetia" also known as "The Lesser Key of Solomon the King". Once again it is one of the most important tools in the Conjuring of Spirits.

Various sources place this symbol and the use of this to between 1400 CE and 1700 CE. It is rumored to date back about 900 BCE and was accredited to Solomon. There is no proof to a link to Solomon.

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=287

AA Comes of Age: Bill W.'s 1955 at St. Louis speech, in which he describes the adoption of the symbol, is printed:

"Above us floats a banner on which is inscribed the new symbol for A.A., a circle enclosing a triangle. The circle stands for the whole world of A.A., and the triangle stands for A.A.'s Three Legacies of Recovery, Unity, and Service. Within our wonderful new world, we have found freedom from our fatal obsession. That we have chose this particular symbol is perhaps no accident. The priests and seers of antiquity regarded the circle enclosing the triangle as a means of warding off the spirits of evil, and A.A.'s circle and triangle of Recovery, Unity, and Service has certainly meant all of that to us and much more." (p. 139)

http://hermetic.com/norton/pdf/goetia.pdf


| 9721|9644|2014-01-03 08:38:18|LESLIE COLE|Re: Educational experience|
Hello to those interested in this topic, I'd like to mention:

Bill had the rare gift of knowing an individual when he was young ... Mark Whalen.

Mark was a liberal, and was sensitive to what life was like around him in the East Dorset, Vermont area. He was Bill's mentor. Bill (and Lois) remained as close friends with Mark throughout their lives. Whatever we all may ascribe to any reasoning behind Bill's adult pronouncement, we should take notice of Mark's philosophy about democracy.

Les Cole
Colorado


| 9722|6783|2014-01-03 08:41:56|Tom Hickcox|Re: Helen Wynn|
On 12/29/2013 11:35, kochbrian@hotmail.com wrote: My apologies as i know there is a thread regarding this subject, I had difficulty on yahoo getting it to go to a reply screen.

From Tommy H in Danville, who has had the same problem with Yahoo.


| 9723|9718|2014-01-03 08:53:58|Dudley Dobinson|Re: Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker an|
Perhaps it is relevant to this question that the term "ex problem drinker" was not used in the first printing.
The expression used was "ex-alcoholics" I believe this phrase was used for the next nine printings. (Can't be totally�sure about nine as I have sold my set of first editions)
Dudley D. Birr,Ireland


-----Original Message-----
From: martinb0858
To: AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 2:17 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker and Charles Durfee's book?

Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker, or for that matter the use of problem drinker, and Charles Durfee's To Drink Or Not To Drink?

Throughout Mr. Durfee's book the use of those words is frequent, I can't remember the use of Dipsomania or Alcoholism through out the text.

Since it was published in 1938 the book could have been available to Bill.

Although there are several other similarities in both Mr. Durfee's book and the Big Book they are radically different treatments.

Any comments?

___________________________________

NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:

Charles H. Durfee, Ph.D., To Drink or Not to Drink (New York: Longmans, Green and Co., 1st edit. August 1937, 2nd edit. January 1938).

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89056352073;view=1up;seq=238

See Preface p. ix -- Charles H. Durfee bases his approach on the ideas of Elwood Worcester, Courtenay Baylor, and Richard Peabody.

His bibliography at the end mentions:

Alfred Adler, Understanding Human Nature
Sigmund Freud, Civilization and Its Discontents
C. G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul


| 9724|9718|2014-01-03 08:54:37|Tom Hickcox|Re: Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker an|
On 1/1/2014 22:33, martinb0858@yahoo.com wrote:


Is there any relationship to Bill's use of ex-problem drinker, or for that matter the use of problem drinker, and Charles Durfee's To Drink Or Not To Drink?

Throughout Mr. Durfee's book the use of those words is frequent, I can't remember the use of Dipsomania or Alcoholism through out the text.

Since it was published in 1938 the book could have been available to Bill.

Although there are several other similarities in both Mr. Durfee's book and the Big Book they are radically different treatments.

I would note that Bill used the term "ex-problem drinker" in the Big Book to replace the term "ex-alcoholic" used in the first printings of the First Edition Big Book .

These changes appeared in the 11th Printing and are as follows:

- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.  p. xxiv
- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.  p. 18
- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

Note the page numbers are for First Editions which use a different pagination than subsequent editions.

The meaning of the term "alcoholic" has changed over the years.  In the '30s it meant one who was drinking alcoholically, so, when one stopped drinking, one was no longer considered an alcoholic.

Tommy H
Danville, Ky


| 9725|9644|2014-01-03 09:02:29|LESLIE COLE|Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson -- Union Theological Seminary|
1-2-14
 
Mornin all, especially Mike:
 
Your invitation for someone to speak "if that person is 80 or 90 years old", applies to me.  I am now 89...as of two days ago, and I am a native Vermonter raised in a small town, near and much like Bill.  I was a pre-adolescent child during the Great Depression...Bill was an alcoholic adult.  My parents and his, had some similar characteristics in ways of education; work ethic; religion; respect from other townsfolk; skills; and curiosity.  His family had more material wealth than mine, but that was not very important to most neighbors.  There was a certain inter-dependence in order to take care of group needs. If you owned a cow...others depended on getting milk from you...and regularly.  Whatever you owned, you did your best to keep it in good repair, and very often your neighbor helped you...for free!   Is it any wonder that Bill emphasized Step 12 and fellowship meetings?
 
It has occurred to me several times here at AAHL that I have never seen a post regarding the effect the Great Depression had on Bill.  My memory of its importance is quite clear.  In this country, there has never been a repeat with respect to the whole country...even though there continues to be large pockets of poverty even today.
 
After 1929, there was very little "good" anywhere that we could cling to.  Faith was necessary. Perseverance was necessary.  The mood was depressive, not just lack of income or reserved wealth.  Previous "standards" had changed immediately, and many established industries collapsed.  In my family, my brother and I had fun finding occasional beer bottles in weeds next to dirt roads which brought us two-cents at the local general store.  A five-cent  O-Henry candy bar was shared  four-ways as  desert after an evening meal. Frequently, the main meal was soda-crackers in a bowl of milk.  Our shoe-soles wore through completely and we put layers of cardboard inside to keep our feet from hitting the ground for a few days.  Consumption of alcohol, for many, became a habit to relieve the oppressions increased by the economic disaster across the country. (Of course Bill's alcoholism began before the 1929 Stock crash)
 
The Federal government (under Franklin Roosevelt) introduced new programs intended to bring money into local   communities immediately.  One was the Work Projects Administration (WPA) which I experienced in Vermont, where water-distribution pipes were being put in trenches dug deep in the ground.  As trenches deepened, the men in the bottom dug with short-handled shovels (because of limited elbow space) tossed dirt up to the surface were another line of men moved it away about 3 feet so it would not fall back into the trench. That system was not well regarded by locals because it was "made" work, rather than "necessary" work.  Pay was received, but respect was not.
 
Cities were affected in a much larger complex.  New electric lines were built out into rural areas which had never had such a convenience.    Political issues were on the minds across the country as public-supported improvements were set in place to help overcome the  Depression.  Famers were granted Federal subsidies to NOT grow crops.  That program was ridiculed by many folks, especially because farm products were so badly needed.  Is it any wonder why Bill was so displeased by the Federal Government at that time? Also, during the 1930s, Vermont had traditionally been a Republican State and Bill maintained that influence, but the country was turning politically in favor of Democrat Programs in response to the failures during the Depression.
 
Contrast that picture with life in the Burnham family.  Their Swedenborg religion relied on group cohesiveness; charitable attitudes; respect for all others;  and industry.  Formal education was achirved by all the males and the girls had high quality high school education, social status, and solid marriages.  Bill introduced alcoholism into that family to a devastating degree. (Later, Lois's sister, Barbara, had her own serious troubles with alcohol which is documented in Lois's diaries.) 
 
It is easy to get a good understanding of the tenets of Swedenborg on the Internet.  That overall culture impacted Bill continuously and this can be seen in the structure of the 12-Steps. 
 
 Lois's wealthy father, being a Medical Doctor, lost his resources and a mortgage defaulted.   Many books have chronicled the nomad living by Bill and Lois as they actually became short-term residents with friends, repeatedly.  
 
As we ponder the reasons behind Bill finally gaining sobriety and developing the 12-Steps...beyond the psychological depressions...beyond Ebby's influence related to a religious  conversion  via the  Oxford Group ...  beyond his "Vermont" character...beyond  whatever reading he did...beyond  Lois's help and support,  we can include  the many sociological conditions related to the Great Depression during which time he conceived the AA Program. 
 
Les Cole
Colorado
 
 
 

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 16:36:35 -0500
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson -- Union Theological Seminary

 
I have been to Stepping Stones and have seen the books that Bill and Lois had in their library. I find it hard to believe that he just skipped through them to come up the ideas he presented in the books,and articles he authored. Unless proved,everything referred to on this topic is just conjecture. I need to see the proof. Is it written, by Bill, in any Grapevine article or letter or on tape,by Bill or Lois, that he skimmed the books that have been mentioned in these postings? I know that Bill started but never finished many projects that concerned him business wise(i.e. becoming a stock broker, or an attorney,or putting Dupont out of business with Honor’s polish), but to say that he did or did not read any book must be verified or it is  just an opinion. Before t.v.,i-phone’s and computers, people had more time to read ,write letters on stationary and to talk face to face with others. The world was less hectic then or so it seemed. Perhaps someone in their 80’s or 90’s can tell us what it was like during that time period
As Clara Peller said,”Where’s the beef?” 
Yours In Service,
Shakey Mike G.


| 9726|9726|2014-01-03 09:03:01|kochbrian2249|Jim's Story|

As many of you know I have made it my slightly odd research goal to find the burial locations of our early AA pioneers, both alcoholic and non.  I am not sure if the following information is widely known, it very well could be among our more esteemed members, but i was nonetheless excited to find it during my research.

 

The author of Jim's Story, in our big book, Dr. James C Scott Jr and his wife Viola "Vi" M Scott are buried in Warrenton Cemetery, Warrenton VA.  Dr. Scott was born Nov 25th 1903 and died Apr 8, 1962.  Vi lived to be 101 years old, born 10 Dec 1901 and died 28 Apr 2003.

 

Her obituary as found in the Washington Post on or about 28 April 2003:


SCOTT, VIOLA M.

On Monday, April 28, 2003, beloved wife of the late James "Doc" Clark Scott; devoted mother of Shirley E. Lee, Frankie S. Crosby and James C. Scott. She is also survived by nine grandchildren, 16 great-grandchildren; nine great-great-grandchildren; a host of other relatives and friends. The late Mrs. Scott will lie in state at Kingdom Hall, 14th and Hamilton Sts., NW, Friday, May 2 from 10 a.m. until service at 11 a.m., Brother Thompson, officiating. Interment Warrenton VA. Services handled by Stewart.

Jim S's efforts, as well as those of his wife, to start the first African-American AA group are of course documented in our big book.  I hope to track down relatives of "Doc" and "Vi"  as they may not be aware of their contributions.

I apologize again if this information was already known by our members.  It does not lessen the excitement I feel when i locate a new grave.  The fist pump always accompanies the find.  I also hope to soon visit the grave(s) and pay my respects in person.

Blessings,

Bria

| 9727|9727|2014-01-03 09:08:10|J. Lobdell|Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson|
He said he read all of VRE and we are compelled to believe him -- when he had read it all we don't know. It surely had an influence on him before he finished it off completely.

He rarely tells us when he finished a book completely, and my own experience both as teacher and student and functioning in faculties and think-tanks, the only creative people without eidetic memory who read books completely are those who are high genius level [say 187 at 12] who are also extremely fast readers.

Mike is quite right that unless we know something for sure it's just an opinion or conjecture, but we can't even know for sure when Dr. Bob's last drink was -- we can't know for sure what Jimmy B.'s experience in that hotel room was, and we can't even know for sure whether Bill remembered things accurately.

I'm pretty sure he finished Peabody's book and Lewis Browne's, indeed all four books Jimmy mentioned..

Richard Nixon wanted to move history beyond intelligent conjecture and that's why he taped all those phone conversations. Best we not do that for A.A.

As to people in their 80s or 90s, Les from Vermont [now in Colorado?] and Dick B [in Hawaii] both have pretty good insight on Bill's reading, Les from personal experience, Dick from study.

The only thing I can tell you about Bill's reading is this: it differed from mine in what kind of things he was curious enough about to read about them. If a great American author had written a story called "Jared Lobdell," I would have read it. A great American author wrote a story called "William Wilson," and he didn't.


| 9728|9720|2014-01-04 07:00:43|mitchell_k_archivist|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
One of the problems with AAWS taking so many people to court over the so-called trademark of the circle and triangle was that after a bit, they found out the ancient symbol couldn't really be trademarked. I've seen that symbol on store fronts of fortune tellers, manhole covers and so many more places. The unfortunate thing is that since AAWS couldn't own the property of the circle and triangle, they decided to remove it as AA's own. In 1955 at the St. Louis convention it was announced that it would forever be our symbol. Since AA legally lost the fight to make it exclusive to AA, they decided to "phase it out."

There used to be a kid when I was growing up who, when he couldn't get his way, took his bat and ball and phased it out of our softball game.

One of my favorite examples of the circle and triangle is from the Sons of Temperance. Within the circle is the triangle with the words Fidelity, Love and Purity on each side of the triangle. At least three of the so-called Four Absolutes are included in their circle and triangle and unselfishness is described in their literature.

If AA can't OWN the PROPERTY, they phase it out (lol). Maybe they forgot a certain primary purpose of lest the problem of money, property, power and prestige diverting them from what they are really supposed to be all about. Most of those who came before us no longer exist because of problems of money, property, power and prestige diverting them from their primary purpose. They are now footnotes in history books. Is AA on its way to footnote heaven?
| 9729|9729|2014-01-04 07:02:22|Matt Masterman|Sybil Corwins explanation on ex-prob drinkers and explanation of D.O|
Hi all, my sponsor Sybil Corwin d.o.l.d. Or sob date 3/21/1941 who was friends with, vacationed with Bill and Lois, said it was as simple as after having more members relapsing Bill wanted to remind us we were never really ex-alcoholic in the same way Marines are never Ex-Marines, only former marines, we are ex-problem drinkers, never ex alcoholics. Nothing more than that.
Much AA love to you all, and happy new year 2014
Matt Masterman
D.O.L.D is what they used to call, used to say was their "date of last drink", thus the beginning of their sobriety.
> On Jan 4, 2014, at 3:33 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups
| 9730|9730|2014-01-04 07:02:42|benknutson86|Do you read the "Day By Day" book?|

I'm writing a book about the Denver Young People's Group, and the daily meditation book written by some of their members, Day By Day. I would like to include testimonials from people who use Day By Day to support their recoveries. If you're interested in submitting your experience with Day By Day for inclusion in the book please write: benknutson42 @ g m a i l .com


Thanks!

Ben
| 9731|9720|2014-01-04 13:45:18|Arthur|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|

AA is not prohibited from owning property (“assets” would be a better term to use). The General Service Board, AAWS and Grapevine possess assets needed to carry out their responsibilities. Among them are: 1) the Reserve Fund (group and member contributions); 2) income from publishing; 3) trademarks, logos and copyrights; 4) physical inventories of literature and media; 5) web sites and content (aa.org and aagrapevine.org) 6) office equipment, furniture and supplies; and probably several other things I fail to mention.

 

There was never any instance where the 4 variants of the circle and triangle logo could not be trademarked from 1955 up to 1993 when they were abandoned. The issue that brought matters to a head was the unauthorized use of the logo on chips and medallions. The abandonment of the circle and triangle symbol was a deliberate and well thought out process driven by the 1992 and 1993 General Service Conferences:

  

The circle and triangle symbol was registered as an official AA mark in 1955. By the mid-1980s it had also begun to be used by outside organizations (e.g. chips/medallions). AAWS began in 1986 to contact unauthorized users and take action to prevent such use. Of about 170 unauthorized users contacted, two suits were filed and both were settled in the very early stages.

 

A 1992 Conference floor action asked the General Service Board to undertake a feasibility study on whether sobriety chips and medallions might be made available and to report its findings to an ad hoc committee of delegates.

 

Ad hoc committee recommendations adopted by the 1993 Conference: 1) the use of sobriety chips/medallions is a matter for local autonomy and not one on which the Conference should record a definite position in behalf of the movement. 2) It is not appropriate for AAWS or the AA Grapevine to produce or license sobriety chips/medallions.

 

Ad hoc committee recommendations NOT adopted by the 1993 Conference: 1) The Conference find that the initiation of litigation involving trademarks and service marks is a violation of Warranty Five. 2) The General Service Board take the steps necessary to bring all policies and practices into conformity with the spirit of the Warranties and the report and recommendations of the ad hoc committee.

 

The AAWS Board Chair announced to the 1993 Conference that AAWS would begin a thorough review of its policies regarding trademarks and do everything possible to avoid initiating litigation and will prepare a revised policy statement for the 1994 Conference."

 

During the post-Conference meeting of the General Service Board, the trustees accepted AAWS's recommendation to discontinue protecting the circle and triangle symbol as a registered mark and reached substantial unanimity that AAWS phase out the "official" or "legal" use of the circle and triangle symbol on literature. It was also noted that AAWS will continue to resist unauthorized use of other marks and attempts to publish AA literature without permission.

 

Cheers

Arthur

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2014 7:25 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle

One of the problems with AAWS taking so many people to court over the so-called trademark of the circle and triangle was that after a bit, they found out the ancient symbol couldn't really be trademarked. I've seen that symbol on store fronts of fortune tellers, manhole covers and so many more places. The unfortunate thing is that since AAWS couldn't own the property of the circle and triangle, they decided to remove it as AA's own. In 1955 at the St. Louis convention it was announced that it would forever be our symbol. Since AA legally lost the fight to make it exclusive to AA, they decided to "phase it out."

There used to be a kid when I was growing up who, when he couldn't get his way, took his bat and ball and phased it out of our softball game.

One of my favorite examples of the circle and triangle is from the Sons of Temperance. Within the circle is the triangle with the words Fidelity, Love and Purity on each side of the triangle. At least three of the so-called Four Absolutes are included in their circle and triangle and unselfishness is described in their literature.

If AA can't OWN the PROPERTY, they phase it out (lol). Maybe they forgot a certain primary purpose of lest the problem of money, property, power and prestige diverting them from what they are really supposed to be all about. Most of those who came before us no longer exist because of problems of money, property, power and prestige diverting them from their primary purpose. They are now footnotes in history books. Is AA on its way to footnote heaven?

| 9732|9720|2014-01-04 13:45:23|williammartin94|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
Hello,
     I guess this would be the same as owning the Serenity Prayer. For something to be of AA it doesn't have to be AA's.
Thanks
Bill M
| 9733|9727|2014-01-06 08:15:58|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson|
From Laurie Andrews and M. J. Johnson

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1@hotmail.com)

Surely it was possible for Bill to read books in different ways - right through, dipped into, skimmed etc.?

- - - -

From: "M.J. Johnson" (threeeyedtoad@gmail.com)

One other point to contribute some "beef" to this discussion.

On Saturday, October 7, 1967, Bill W. spoke on the event of his thirty-third AA anniversary in company with more than 3,000 AAs, who gathered in the main ballroom of the New York Hilton. A portion of this talk is available here:

http://www.bbastuff.com/guides/morgan-workshop/2-workshop-articles/BillWilsonJungSilkworth.pdf

It is also included in "The Language of the Heart", on page 284. The relevant quote in this talk is:

"... the message came to me in a book called Varieties of Religious Experience. I read the book cover to cover..."

As to whether we can take Bill at his word is a matter of conjecture.


| 9734|9720|2014-01-06 09:01:50|gcdavid1|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
From gcdavid, Laurie Andrews, and Mike B

- - - -

From: (gcdavid1@yahoo.com)

The circle triangle symbol has not been abandoned. Here is a link to photos of my British printed Big Book, a fourth edition, fourth British printing from 2005. It has our circle triangle logo on the dust jacket, on the tail of the books cover and on the title page. It appears that AAWS only "phased out" our symbol on literature sold in the United States, and the footnote from this 2005 copy states that there is AA activity in approximately 150 (other) countries. On the aa.org website, if you look at the international literature sold in the online store, you will see the circle triangle logo is used apparently everywhere but the U.S.

http://s304.photobucket.com/user/mvmatthew/library/Mobile%20Uploads

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1@hotmail.com)

"...The priests and seers of antiquity regarded the circle enclosing the triangle as a means of warding off spirits of evil, and AA's circle and triangle or Recovery, Unity, and Service has certainly meant all of that to us and much more.

Medallions on the other hand are not universally considered an embodiment of the Fellowship as such ... They are not sobriety itself and any attempt to make medallions more than a symbol may lead perilously toward ego-inflation, self-glorification, rather than ego-deflation (see Tradition 12)...

Ownership works against the foundation of the Steps that lead to sobriety. Ownership necessarily involves control and to argue over that control through litigation takes the focus away from the fact that we are ultimately powerless...

Like the Serenity Prayer and the slogans, which have never had official recognition, the circle and triangle will most likely continue to be used widely for many AA purposes. The difference from the earlier practice is that its official use to denote Alcoholics Anonymous materials will be phased out."

(From the Conference recommendations cited by Arthur and which are accessible on the Grapevine digital archive and from GSO).

- - - -

From: Mike B (ukmikeb@yahoo.co.uk)

The circle and triangle was passed at conference after an appeal concept 5 to be used as it was the members wish for it to remain.

Regards,
Mike B

===========================================
From G.C. the moderator: SEE THE 12 CONCEPTS

"Concept V. Throughout our world services structure, a traditional 'Right of Appeal' ought to prevail, thus assuring us that minority opinion will be heard and that petitions for the redress of personal grievances will be carefully considered."

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-8_thetwelveconetps.pdf
===========================================


| 9735|9730|2014-01-06 09:26:03|ljmesg|Re: Do you read the "Day By Day" book?|
Day By Day is a daily prayer and meditation book written by Hazelden for drug addicts.

======================================
NOTE FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: ljmesg is right -- with apologies, but this may not be a fully appropriate topic for the AAHistoryLovers -- we look at the Narcotics Anonymous movement on our AAHL website, but only as its history becomes particularly deeply entangled with AA history at certain points -- on the intended audience of the Day by Day book, see the Hazelden website at:

http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=1692&sitex=10020:22372:US

"More than 1.1 million recovering addicts have adopted Day by Day as their meditation book because its inspirational messages augment and reinforce NA principles about coping with today's problems while staying chemically free."

http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=2678&sitex=10020:22372:US

"More than one million recovering addicts have adopted Day by Day because its daily messages provide support for coping with problems while staying chemically free. The inspirational messages reinforce the principles of Narcotics Anonymous. Each page features a meditation, suggested action, and place for the reader to write a daily goal. Every meditation ends with the affirmation, 'God help me to stay clean and sober today!' Day by Day has been helping recovering addicts stay clean and sober since 1974."
======================================

On Saturday, January 4, 2014, "benknutson86@yahoo.com" wrote:

I'm writing a book about the Denver Young People's Group, and the daily meditation book written by some of their members, Day By Day. I would like to include testimonials from people who use Day By Day to support their recoveries. If you're interested in submitting your experience with Day By Day for inclusion in the book please write: benknutson42 @ g m a i l .com

Thanks!
Ben


| 9736|9736|2014-01-06 09:42:49|Charles Knapp|Murder at Towns Hospital|
Hello Group,

While searching some online newspaper sites I came across this article about a murder that happen at Towns Hospital in New York.I thought the group might enjoy reading it. Sadly I could not find any follow up to this story but will keep looking. I can send a PDF of the article if anyone is interested. Just send me an email with "Towns Hospital" in subject line.

Charles from Wisconsin

The Herald Statesman, Yonkers N.Y., October 18, 196
Eastchester Husband Kills Mother-In Law, Shoots Wife
He's Slain By Bullets Of Police

NEW YORK (AP) An estranged Eastchester husband fatally shot his mother-in-law and wounded wife in their family's private hospital for alcoholics last night.

The husband was killed by a hail of police bullets a short time later.

Police said they faced the gun muzzle of the attacker, Thomas Lewis, 43, a salesman, of 447 California Road, Eastchester.

The shooting was in the 50 patient Charles B. Towns Hospital 293 Central Park West.

Mother-In-Law Dies

Lewis' mother-in-law, Mrs. Marian Towns, 60, died in St. Luke's Hospital two hours after the shooting.

His wife, Caroline, 39, wounded in the face, was reported in fair condition in St. Luke's Hosp today.

The hospital for alcoholics was operated by the wife's father, Edward Towns, a retired Army Coronel. It was founded by his father Charles, a physician.

The Lewis couple, who broke up several months ago, have two daughters -- Linda. S, and Yvanne, 13. Mrs. Lewis and the children went to live in her parent's nine-room apartment on the top floor of the five-story hospital.

Quarrel Breaks Out

Lewis went to the hospital yesterday and spoke with Linda on the top floor. At 6 p.m. asked the child to leave the living room and to send in her mother.A violent quarrel between the couple ensued.

Linda told detectives later: The noise frightened grandma. She cane into the room. Then there were lot of shots." Linda was on the fifth floor watching television the time of the shooting. Her mother returned home from school a short time later.

The hospital switchboard operator telephoned police and told them "there's a man on the floor killing people."

15 Shots Fired

Police said that 15 shots were fired by Lewis, a salesman for Amityville, L.I., a kitchen equipment firm. He emptied two guns.

Two radio cars arrived three patrolmen, guns in hand, went upstairs. A fourth patrolman drove the bleeding Mrs. Lewis to St. Luke's Hospital. She had staggered down the five flights of stairs in search of help and collapsed before police arrived.

The three patrolmen said they found Lewis sitting on a ottoman holding a gun, and Mrs. Towns lying at his feet. They saw him aimed the gun as they told him to drop it and surrender, and then fired.

Lewis' hands and face bloody when they entered the patrolmen said, and police checking a possibility that he shot himself before the patrolman arrived.

Father Out to Dinner

Col. Towns was dining at the University Club at the time Police said that last Thursday Mrs. Lewis obtained a Domestic Relations Court summons for her husband on the ground that he had threatened her with violence.

Relatives last night picked the Lewis children to care for them.

Neighbors' Reaction

Neighbors in Eastchester stayed pinned to their radios and television sets last night in utter shock as they received the news."He was such a nice fellow and she was such a pretty girl." Mrs. Jules Boldcn of 442 California Road said of the Lewises.

But none of the neighbors knew the Lewises well. Most thought they had moved into the house a year or two ago after it had been rented by James Dyers to Col. Towns. Harold B. Pomeranz of 454 California Road reported that Mrs. Lewis is a native of Eastchester. Eastchester police led by Chief Vincent Fisher went to the house after the report of the shooting, found it dark and in good order.

They found no trace of the Indian servant the Lewises were reported to have brought back from a business trip to India.

Neighbors remarked that they had not seen Mrs. Lewis or the children lately but had heard a car entering the steep drive to the huge white colonial about midnight yesterday. The telephones had been disconnected.


| 9737|9730|2014-01-06 19:46:34|benknutson86|Re: Do you read the "Day By Day" book?|
Day By Day was written by members of the Denver Young People's Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, and edited by Shelly M., who was a member of the group, not a Hazelden author. It was not written by anyone at Hazelden. Gary B., Bob O., and the late Don P. (all well known for popular twelve step workshops, among other achievements) were members of the group at the time the book was written.The lineage of the Big Book Awakenings movement can be traced directly back to the Denver Young People's Group. Gary B., for one, told me that he had never studied the Big Book prior to joining the group. Don P. joined immediately after his release from prison in 1969.
The book was written when NA was largely unknown. Much like "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict," it is a snapshot of a period when how best to deal with problems other than alcohol was a hot topic in AA.
The first edition of Day By Day does not mention NA at all. There were under 200 NA meetings held worldwide when it was written. The NA reference in the synopsis of the current edition is a Hazelden marketing tool.
If the history of Day By Day is not AA history, I don't know what is. That there is so little information, and so much of it misinformation, about the book is the reason I'm writing about its history.


-Ben

| 9738|9720|2014-01-06 19:46:51|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
From the AA Structure Handbook for Great Britain 2013: "General Service Board, para 4 - The AA Publications; Copyright/LOGO Guidelines; The General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous Great Britain is granted permission under licence to publish and distribute AA published and Conference Approved literature. The AAWS and General Service Board of the US/Canada delegates direct responsibility for copyright protection to the General Service Board and General Service Conference of Great Britain ...The Fellowship is reminded that copyrighted material must not be copied by any means (including electronic scanning), as this would be a violation of the copyright ... Logo: Two logos have been registered by the General Service Board of AA in Gt Britain and these are (there follow two illustrations of the circle and triangle with the words Recovery, Unity, Service on one, and the words General Service Conference on the second). The logo with the words Recovery, Unity and Service may be used as follows: Documents, correspondence, pamphlets etc from the GSB and GSO; minutes and reports prepared by regions and their elected officers; minutes and reports prepared by intergroups and their elected officers; convention, forum and workshop announcements sponsored by intergroups or regions; communications by Service Liaison Officer with outside professional bodies to assist our primary purpose; Share and Roundabout magazines. NB Permission for any other use can only be granted, in writing, by the GSB of AA in Gt Britain. The logo with the words General Service Conference can only be used by Conference. This logo is used in relation to Conference approved material. The logos, as they appear above, are the only ones recognised by the GSB of AA in Gt Britain. They are not intended to be used for commercial or private use."
Presumably if, as in the US, the GSB GB got dragged into court cases with enterprises or individuals hijacking the logos for "commercial and private purposes" it to might have to consider abandoning its British copyrights to the Circle and Triangle.  

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: gcdavid1@yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 21:14:46 -0800
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle

 
From gcdavid, Laurie Andrews, and Mike B

- - - -

From: (gcdavid1@yahoo.com)

The circle triangle symbol has not been abandoned. Here is a link to photos of my British printed Big Book, a fourth edition, fourth British printing from 2005. It has our circle triangle logo on the dust jacket, on the tail of the books cover and on the title page. It appears that AAWS only "phased out" our symbol on literature sold in the United States, and the footnote from this 2005 copy states that there is AA activity in approximately 150 (other) countries. On the aa.org website, if you look at the international literature sold in the online store, you will see the circle triangle logo is used apparently everywhere but the U.S.

http://s304.photobucket.com/user/mvmatthew/library/Mobile%20Uploads

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1@hotmail.com)

"...The priests and seers of antiquity regarded the circle enclosing the triangle as a means of warding off spirits of evil, and AA's circle and triangle or Recovery, Unity, and Service has certainly meant all of that to us and much more.

Medallions on the other hand are not universally considered an embodiment of the Fellowship as such ... They are not sobriety itself and any attempt to make medallions more than a symbol may lead perilously toward ego-inflation, self-glorification, rather than ego-deflation (see Tradition 12)...

Ownership works against the foundation of the Steps that lead to sobriety. Ownership necessarily involves control and to argue over that control through litigation takes the focus away from the fact that we are ultimately powerless...

Like the Serenity Prayer and the slogans, which have never had official recognition, the circle and triangle will most likely continue to be used widely for many AA purposes. The difference from the earlier practice is that its official use to denote Alcoholics Anonymous materials will be phased out."

(From the Conference recommendations cited by Arthur and which are accessible on the Grapevine digital archive and from GSO).

- - - -

From: Mike B (ukmikeb@yahoo.co.uk)

The circle and triangle was passed at conference after an appeal concept 5 to be used as it was the members wish for it to remain.

Regards,
Mike B

===========================================
From G.C. the moderator: SEE THE 12 CONCEPTS

"Concept V. Throughout our world services structure, a traditional 'Right of Appeal' ought to prevail, thus assuring us that minority opinion will be heard and that petitions for the redress of personal grievances will be carefully considered."

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-8_thetwelveconetps.pdf
===========================================



| 9739|6783|2014-01-07 08:28:57|corafinch|Re: Helen Wynn|
When I looked (haven't checked recently) the Social Security death index indicated that an American Helen Wynn died at Moroni on that date. Certainly that may have been a different person, possibly even someone with a Social Security number but not an American citizen. Bill Wilson's Helen Wynn may not have been on the SS index at all. Since I don't know your source, I'll go ahead and ask: why would s/he not know the date, or not want to share it with you? Could HW have died while traveling? If a Social Security number is available, that would clarify things.
| 9740|9720|2014-01-07 08:43:30|John Steeves|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
From John Steeves, martinb0858, and Rick Tompkins

- - - -

From: John Steeves (honest03060@yahoo.com)

I am just a simple man but it seems to me that
- AAWS gave up use of the circle and triangle due to lawsuit or threat of and Tradition 6 concern.
- Later it was found to be Solomons Triangle and is not subject to trademark or legal concerns in the US
- GB has rights to sues it (does it matter)
- Why dont we ask AAWS to put it back in the Book? and other publications?

- We only violate traditions if we decide to fight amongst ourselves:-)

Is it that simple?

SWJ


- - - -

From: (martinb0858@yahoo.com)

The sad reality that as large as AA has become it is a business. It is a not for profit organization, regardless it exists under a fairly complex set of business and tax laws. It is a difficult balancing act. There is a need to "protect" AA through the complex tax law and business laws that they work in. It is critical that AA be able to provide literature that accurately portrays AA principles. It is important to insure that every quack and their Accountant does not suddenly jump up and call themselves AA and they have a :magical cure... or that their AA is not spiritual nor a 12 step program. So there is a certain level of business and legal skill necessary to continue.

It is no longer a small group meeting in people's houses or a room they could rent someplace and buying a big book two or three at a time in cash from the publisher. As AA has grown more rules were forced upon them basically by the Government. It is functionally impossible to provide support to an organization as large and diverse as AA has become without Money, Property (such as a archive and literature inventory or the $250 Bill paid to Hank for office furniture), Trademarks, Copyrights and Intellectual Property.. Total anarchy would exist if this were all left up to a weekly group conscience. The whole house of AA would have imploded. It will always require a careful balance and commitment to the principles ....

When I hear that AA has sold its assets to XYZ Equities and that XYZ plans an overhaul and private hospitals dial in Fortune Tellers, etc., etc. for a profit, I'll go look for a new show.


- - - -

From: "rick tompkins" (richardwtompkins@gmail.com)

�Medallions on the other hand are not universally considered an embodiment of the Fellowship as such ... They are not sobriety itself and any attempt to make medallions more than a symbol may lead perilously toward ego-inflation, self-glorification, rather than ego-deflation (see Tradition 12)...�

GSO Staff during the few years prior to the 1993 Conference seemed to be at the forefront of the conversation about the circle and triangle, while the medallion makers chafed at �cease and desist� threats of lawsuits. So, much of the then-rationale against the �self-glorification� came across to me as preachy. Or was Staff simply carrying along the discussion?

�We can�t protect it, so we can�t keep it.�

I get very tired of pontification and sermonizing that continues to show its ugly face in our Fellowship. One Chicago friend, an attorney and Delegate during the years of discontinuing the logo graphic would say �if anything AA is the worst organization to try and sue anyone or anything.� Years followed of Mexico, Germany, IWS (upstate NY) copyright infringement litigation prove this to me. But AA thrives amid all the distractions!

Glad to remember that AA in the UK listened to its minority opinion in favor of keeping the logos.

Rick, Illinois



| 9741|6783|2014-01-07 09:42:55|brian koch|Re: Helen Wynn|
As i said the source is extremely private, and i am going to draw the conclusion that they just did not have the exact date in front of them, as opposed to having no idea what the date was.  The correspondence I received said they would look into it, as of now I  have not received any more information. The person was very specific that Maggliore was where she lived and died.  As more information comes available I will provide it.  I have not yet written the state department and inquired about her death as, without a date, this would not be a fruitful endeavor.
 
Blessings,
 
Brian
 

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: corafinch@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 06:00:15 -0800
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Helen Wynn

 
When I looked (haven't checked recently) the Social Security death index indicated that an American Helen Wynn died at Moroni on that date. Certainly that may have been a different person, possibly even someone with a Social Security number but not an American citizen. Bill Wilson's Helen Wynn may not have been on the SS index at all. Since I don't know your source, I'll go ahead and ask: why would s/he not know the date, or not want to share it with you? Could HW have died while traveling? If a Social Security number is available, that would clarify things.
| 9742|9720|2014-01-08 09:26:31|mitchell_k_archivist|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
It wasn't threats of lawsuits - it was that AA took these people to public court for punitive actions (read the concepts as regard to punitive actions). AA was litigating and for all intents and purposes, lost the litigation. I have copies of most of the court and legal documentation from the Frames of Mind and other cases. As far as cease and desist letters - AAWS threatened AOL and several other web based providers to stop AA related web sites and they caved in and many sites were taken down. One of the reasons AA found out

that the copyright was left to lapse on the 1st edition was when they litigated against Carry The Message from Akron and lost.


AAWS has bankrupted AA members, outed AA members as members in public court and public records. AA has allowed AA members to be jailed and destroyed. AAWS through a court case even went so far to have as a stipulation of settlement that certain AA members never own, buy, lend or give any AA literature otherwise major fines would be reinstated. Thereby litigating AA members from being able to use any AA literature (books, pamphlets, Grapevine etc) to carry the AA message.


As far as anyone using the 12 Steps - look at the hundreds of 12 Step fellowships out there using AA's steps adapted with implied permission. Hundreds of groups "jumped up" and became 12 Step fellowships with permission. Aren't we, as AA members supposed to freely give that which we have received? Doesn't one of our Traditions say something about never allowing money or conformity to be requirements?


What about "When we were wrong promptly admitted..." - I gather the Traditions and living a program of honesty do not apply to AAWS. After all, when it was proven that Spencer did not author that quote about contempt prior to investigation, no footnote was forthcoming. Most AA members still quote that quote as something written by Spencer.


How about the amazing magic trick performed by Dr. Bob? It is amazing that this man of honesty and deep Christian faith could be in Atlantic City, New Jersey AND in Akron, Ohio 470 miles away on the same day. Did Dr. Bob say "Beam me back to Akron Scotty"? Yet, where is the footnote in the literature promptly saying we were wrong? When is the day of AA's founding celebrated?


There is a quote written by a very famous alcoholic writer (non-AA member) by the name of Jack London. It comes from a letter he wrote to his daughter. Mr London wrote:


"If you suppress truth, if you hide truth, if you do not rise up and speak out in meeting, if you speak out in meeting without speaking the whole truth, then you are less true than truth."


THIS IS WHY I make myself a royal pain in the rear end. This is why I do not assimilate into the Borg. For me and the program of honesty I make every effort to follow - RESISTANCE is NOT Futile!


I have the capacity to be honest and can recover. I will not be less true than truth.


Oh - speaking of those nasty medallions, as written by another great author William Shakespeare in Hamlet - Act 1 Scene 3: "This above all- to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man"   


"Above all, thine own self be true...Thou canst not then be false to any man." Also - "...
if you speak out in meeting without speaking the whole truth, then you are less true than truth."


I'm not one of those "...men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves." And in telling the truth no matter how much it goes against the party line, I prove to myself that I have "...the capacity to be honest" and therefore can recover.


The truth shall set you free (John 8:32)

| 9743|9720|2014-01-08 09:51:01|Arthur|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
From Arthur S. and Baileygc23

- - - -

From: Arthur (arthur.s@live.com)

The story of the Circle and Triangle can be found at the aa.org web site. Go to the page for downloading Box 4-5-9 and download the 1993 August - September issue.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com

Martinb0858@yahoo.com, below, mentions fortune tellers. I do not believe AA sponsors would welcome the competion.

=======================================
When I hear that AA has sold its assets to XYZ Equities and that XYZ plans an overhaul and private hospitals dial in Fortune Tellers, etc., etc. for a profit, I'll go look for a new show.
=======================================


From Message No. 9740


| 9744|9730|2014-01-10 07:06:44|bobhickey674|Re: Do you read the "Day By Day" book?|

Ben, I would like to know more information about the Big Book Awakenings movement. Is this the start of reading line by line with your sponsor that is so popular in Tidewater AA? Thanks Bob Hickey

| 9745|9720|2014-01-10 07:06:49|elginsv|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|

Conley B. former Class B Trustee would be a good source in regard to the circle and triangle as he was on this committee .                                    Elgin Steve

| 9746|9746|2014-01-10 07:07:12|jaxena77|New play on Traditions, Speaker Meeting with Glenn C.|
For members in Northern California, hope you can join us and please pass it on.

Thanks again to Glenn and everyone in this YahooGroup for assisting in my research and keeping our history alive. Couldn't have done any of this without the service of historians and archivists! Anyone interested in reading a pdf of the script or obtaining a DVD of our SF premiere, please email me at inourownwords.sanantonio@gmail.com. I also have the script and DVD of my docu-drama IN OUR OWN WORDS available.

The East Bay Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous presents:
OUR EXPERIENCE HAS TAUGHT US
A Sensational History of our Twelve Traditions by Jackie B.

ONE WEEKEND ONLY!

January 30 - Febuary 2, 2014

Thursday - Saturday, 8pm and Sunday, 3pm
"Some of our lessons are easy and some of our lessons are hard. It doesn't much matter what happens to us, it's what we do with our experience that counts." – Bill Wilson, in a letter to Sybil Corwin

After selling out two weekends in San Francisco, the writer and director of IN OUR OWN WORDS, the hit Grapevine play of the 2010 International Conference, brings an abridged two-act version of her new play to the East Bay! OUR EXPERIENCE HAS TAUGHT US dramatizes AA's coming of age, from the founding of the first groups in Ohio, New York and Los Angeles to the First International Conference. Powerful and entertaining, this play brings to life the often comical and sometimes tragic experiences of the "flying blind" period of our history that led to the adoption of the Twelve Traditions.

THE ASHBY STAGE
1901 Ashby Avenue, Berkeley, CA
(On the corner of MLK, across from the Ashby BART station)

Limited Seating!
Advance tickets available online at www.traditionsplay.brownpapertickets.com
For more information, email centraloffice@eastbayaa.org or call 510-839-0709

SPECIAL EVENT WITH GLENN C. of the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group

Saturday, February 1 from 6 - 7:30pm 
Special AA Speaker Meeting with Glenn C.
No ticket necessary for admission, open meeting for all members

| 9747|9747|2014-01-10 07:07:30|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Helen Wynn|
The Helen Wynn who died at Moroni had the exact same date of birth as Helen Wynn Simis and Helen Wynn Strudwick in the Port of New York reports on incoming travelers.
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: corafinch@yahoo.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎January‎ ‎7‎, ‎2014 ‎11‎:‎28‎ ‎AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


When I looked (haven't checked recently) the Social Security death index indicated that an American Helen Wynn died at Moroni on that date. Certainly that may have been a different person, possibly even someone with a Social Security number but not an American citizen. Bill Wilson's Helen Wynn may not have been on the SS index at all. Since I don't know your source, I'll go ahead and ask: why would s/he not know the date, or not want to share it with you? Could HW have died while traveling? If a Social Security number is available, that would clarify things.

| 9748|9730|2014-01-12 08:38:25|benknutson86|Re: Do you read the "Day By Day" book?|
Bob,
I know only a little about the Big Book Awakenings format. My research has been focused more so on the Denver Young People's Group's early days and the period during which the Day By Day book was written. My friend David M. (who posts here on HistoryLovers) may be able to tell you more. Apparently they're having tremendous results using the format in the south and southwest.

Also, here are some links for more information:
http://bigbookawakening.com/
http://www.thejaywalker.com/index.html
http://www.bbastuff.com/

In fellowship,
Ben
| 9749|9720|2014-01-12 09:01:36|xena|Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle|
Charlie B. panel 43, Central NY was another member of the committee that would be good to contact. I can provide his e-mail address if interested.

Lisa H
Panel 47 CNY



-------- Original message --------
From: artisanconcrete@yahoo.com
Date: 01/09/2014 4:09 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Circle and Triangle aka Solomons Triangle


Conley B. former Class B Trustee would be a good source in regard to the circle and triangle as he was on this committee . � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Elgin Steve

| 9750|9747|2014-01-12 09:29:52|esskayeff|Re: Helen Wynn|
Hi all,

After reading the confusion on this thread about Helen Wynn's place of death, I asked her son (friend of mine) to clear up the issue. Here is his reply:

"For the record Helen Wynn (nee Simus) died at Eranos which is situated at Ascona Switzerland. I should know. I'm her son. Please correct. Thanks."

Best regards,

Sarah
___________________________________

AAHL Message 5619:

From "J. Lobdell"
Re: When did Helen Wynn die?

Evidence of ship passenger lists (ships docking in NYC) shows Helen Simis (b. Jan 17 1907) in 1930 and Helen Strudwick (b Jan 17 1907) in the 1940s. The Helen Wynn who died at Moroni in 1978 was b. Jan 17 1907: she is therefore the correct Helen Wynn.

She was b. in Utah, the daughter of Richard and Lina Simis (both b. 1874) and had several siblings.

Her husband Shepperd Strudwick (jr), 1907-1983, was married from 1977 to another wife but is recorded as having had a son by a previous marriage -- presumably the Shepperd Strudwick who was b. Los Angeles June 14 1944, mother's maiden name Simis.

Shepperd Strudwick Jr (real name) and Helen Simis (Helen Wynn) were m. May 10, 1936. He m. his second wife by 1947, third in 1958, fourth (Mary Jeffrey) in 1977.

Their son, Shepperd Strudwick III attended the Harvey School in Katonah, translated the French play L'Ete in 1973 and has been connected with the Williamstown Theatre, but I don't know where he is now, or if he's still alive (he'd only be 64).
___________________________________

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: corafinch@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:56:24 +0000
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When did Helen Wynn die?

> If someone has a better source, disregard this. Assuming that Helen Wynn was using that name at the time of her death, and that she is included in the Social Security Death Index, I believe she must have been the one who died in Moroni, Comoros in March 1978. The last address of that (American) Helen Wynn is listed as "Europe," and the Helen Wynn who knew Bill Wilson had been living in Ireland at the time of Bill's death.
>
> Caveats: Helen Wynn was originally her stage name although I'm assuming it was her legal name when Bill put her in his will. She was born in Utah (see Francis Hartigan, most of whose information seems to have come from a 1939 NYT article about her) as Helen Simis. She seems never to have used the name of her husband, Shepperd Strudwick. Not everyone ends up in the Social Security Death records, and if she did not I have clearly found the wrong Helen Wynn. She must have paid into Social Security, however, if she worked for the Grapevine and so would be expected to be on the list.
>
> Whether that is the correct death record or not, I am reasonably sure that she was neither "22 years younger than Lois" as some sources say, or "22 years younger than Bill" as other sources have it. She was born around 1907 which would make her 12 years younger than Bill.



| 9751|9747|2014-01-12 10:45:22|brian koch|Re: Helen Wynn|
That's who my original source was. Thank you, as his friend, for revealing his identity. I didn't think it was my place. My wife and I are anxious to visit switzerland.�
Blessings,�
Brian

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2014, at 12:29 PM, sfry1225@gmail.com wrote:

Hi all,

After reading the confusion on this thread about Helen Wynn's place of death, I asked her son (friend of mine) to clear up the issue. Here is his reply:

"For the record Helen Wynn (nee Simus) died at Eranos which is situated at Ascona Switzerland. I should know. I'm her son. Please correct. Thanks."

Best regards,

Sarah
___________________________________

AAHL Message 5619:

From "J. Lobdell"
Re: When did Helen Wynn die?

Evidence of ship passenger lists (ships docking in NYC) shows Helen Simis (b. Jan 17 1907) in 1930 and Helen Strudwick (b Jan 17 1907) in the 1940s. The Helen Wynn who died at Moroni in 1978 was b. Jan 17 1907: she is therefore the correct Helen Wynn.

She was b. in Utah, the daughter of Richard and Lina Simis (both b. 1874) and had several siblings.

Her husband Shepperd Strudwick (jr), 1907-1983, was married from 1977 to another wife but is recorded as having had a son by a previous marriage -- presumably the Shepperd Strudwick who was b. Los Angeles June 14 1944, mother's maiden name Simis.

Shepperd Strudwick Jr (real name) and Helen Simis (Helen Wynn) were m. May 10, 1936. He m. his second wife by 1947, third in 1958, fourth (Mary Jeffrey) in 1977.

Their son, Shepperd Strudwick III attended the Harvey School in Katonah, translated the French play L'Ete in 1973 and has been connected with the Williamstown Theatre, but I don't know where he is now, or if he's still alive (he'd only be 64).
___________________________________

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: corafinch@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:56:24 +0000
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When did Helen Wynn die?

> If someone has a better source, disregard this. Assuming that Helen Wynn was using that name at the time of her death, and that she is included in the Social Security Death Index, I believe she must have been the one who died in Moroni, Comoros in March 1978. The last address of that (American) Helen Wynn is listed as "Europe," and the Helen Wynn who knew Bill Wilson had been living in Ireland at the time of Bill's death.
>
> Caveats: Helen Wynn was originally her stage name although I'm assuming it was her legal name when Bill put her in his will. She was born in Utah (see Francis Hartigan, most of whose information seems to have come from a 1939 NYT article about her) as Helen Simis. She seems never to have used the name of her husband, Shepperd Strudwick. Not everyone ends up in the Social Security Death records, and if she did not I have clearly found the wrong Helen Wynn. She must have paid into Social Security, however, if she worked for the Grapevine and so would be expected to be on the list.
>
> Whether that is the correct death record or not, I am reasonably sure that she was neither "22 years younger than Lois" as some sources say, or "22 years younger than Bill" as other sources have it. She was born around 1907 which would make her 12 years younger than Bill.



| 9752|6783|2014-01-12 11:30:45|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Helen Wynn|
I'm a little confused here. Is the following correct?

Helen Simis was born on Jan. 17, 1907. She was born in Utah, the daughter of Richard and Lina Simis (both born 1874). Helen Simis later began calling herself Helen Wynn, originally as a stage name.

She married Shepperd Strudwick, Jr. (b. 1907 - d. 1983) on May 10, 1936, when she was 29 years old, but they later divorced. Shepperd ended up marrying another three times.

Shepperd Strudwick III was born in Los Angeles on June 14, 1944, with his mother's maiden name given as Simis. He attended the Harvey School (a boarding school and East Coast college prep school) located in Katonah (a hamlet included within the town of Bedford, New York), translated the French play L'Ete ("Summer") which was performed Off-Broadway in 1973 at the Cherry Lane Theatre, and has been connected with the Williamstown Theatre.

Jared Lobdell found one reference to a "Helen Strudwick" in a ship passenger list from the 1940's -- a passenger who gave her birth date as Jan. 17, 1907, which meant that this was presumably our Helen -- but Cora Finch could find no other evidence of our Helen using the last name Strudwick anyplace else.

Our Helen Wynn -- the one who was Bill Wilson's friend -- died in Switzerland, at the place where the famous Eranos Conferences are held, and NOT in Moroni out in the Indian Ocean.

What was her date of death? March 1978? Our Helen would have been 71 years old in March 1978.

(Bill Wilson died on January 24, 1971, around seven years earlier. At one point -- if I read one of the early sources correctly -- it appears to me that Helen Wynn, Lois Wilson, and Nell Wing were all at Bill's bedside as he lay dying. Is this correct?????

_________________________________

Quoting from the wikipedia articles on Moroni and the Eranos conferences:

MORONI is the largest city in the Union of the Comoros, an archipelago in the Indian Ocean.

ERANOS is a very famous intellectual discussion group dedicated to the study of psychology, religion, philosophy and spirituality which has met annually in Switzerland since 1933. The group was founded by Olga Froebe-Kapteyn, and these conferences have been held annually on the grounds of her estate (on the shores of Lago Maggiore near Ascona in Switzerland) ever since.

Its first theme, 'Yoga and Meditation in East and West,' was a truly pioneering subject in the early 1930s. Past themes include Ancient Sun Cults and the Symbolism of Light in the Gnosis and in Early Christianity (1943), Man and Peace (1958), Creation and Organization (1966) and The Truth of Dreams (1995).

People who have participated in the group include:

Rudolf Otto (the famous German theologian and historian of comparative religions who first suggested that the group be formed)

Mircea Eliade (Romanian, equally famous in the field of comparative religions)

Carl Jung

Gilles Quispel (gnostic studies)

Gershom Scholem (Jewish mysticism)

Joseph Campbell (comparative mythology)

___________________________________

Message 8189 from Charles Knapp (Wisconsin) says: "The General Service Conference Final Reports show Helen Wynn listed as a Grapevine staff member, but never as editor. She was shown on the reports for 1957 - 1961. The 1959,1960 and 1961 reports show her on the Editorial Staff list."
___________________________________

Please see also Message 9710 from Brian Koch:

The question was when did Helen Wynn die.  Research by some of my learned and diligent fellows here produced some data pointing to the Moroni, in the Comoros Islands, March 1978.

The information i recently received from the person who was closest to Helen, and would have knowledge of the subject, contradicts this.  As to the when, the person is not exactly sure of the date, or they have not gotten back to me yet with the date.  As to the where, Her ashes were scattered on the shore of Lake Maggiore outside the town of Ascona (http://www.myswitzerland.com/en-us/ascona.html) located very near the Italian border. The Eranos conference takes place there on an annual basis. I will not attempt to retype what can be found on the web (http://www.eranosfoundation.org/). In short, it is a very spiritual gathering by some of the great minds of the time and covers many philosophical subjects. Carl Jung actually has a significant connection with the conference. (see website).

This, according to my source, is where she lived and died.  Additionally, a bush was planted there by my source. "She loved that place, and the last photos of her were from there."

Previous to this information coming to light, i had queried the state department as to the death of an American in the Comoros Islands, with names either Helen Wynn, or Helen Simis.  There is no record of either name, for any date.

I am hesitant to name the source for this information as they are an extremely private person, and live abroad.  Many of you can probably figure out rather easily who this is, so lets just leave it at that.  If you have made an educated guess as to the persons identity, then you can count on this source as knowing the true story.

Not sure where the information developed regarding Helen and the Comoros Islands. It seems to come from sources considered legitimate. I only offer what i have found out to the group.

| 9753|6783|2014-01-13 07:20:28|corafinch|Re: Helen Wynn|
Glenn, I did not mean to imply that I had not seen the records Jared mentioned. Ancestry.com lists not only the Helen Wynn with a  birth date January 17 1907 who died at Moroni, but a Helen Simis traveling in 1930 with the same birth date and a Helen Strudwick traveling in 1947 with the same birth date. There are other listings for the same (it appears) person, including one with a birth date of January 17 1907 which I suspect was a typo. Some records, such as census, use "about 1907." 

That should be good enough for most purposes, but private sources are not to be dismissed lightly. The country of residence recorded for the Helen Wynn who died at Moroni was "Europe," (it would have been nice if the record had been more specific) so a reasonable hypothesis might be that she was away from home at the time of her death.
| 9754|9747|2014-01-13 07:20:39|corafinch|Re: Helen Wynn|
Glenn, I answered one post without looking at the others. What probably happened is that someone entered the wrong geographical code when recording her death on the Social Security Death List. That would give us the correct date but the wrong place.
Laura
| 9755|6783|2014-01-13 07:27:29|J. Lobdell|Re: Helen Wynn|
I also found in the Social Security Death Index the name Helen Wynn b. January 17, 1907, died 1978, last residence U. S. Consulate 876 Moroni [Comoros]. That this is our Helen Wynn I had and have no doubt. Quite possibly a handwritten reference to some other Consulate could have been misread as Moroni, but that's the official record in the SSDI.

Arrival NY from Cobh [Eire] January 31 1947, Helen Strudwick b. Jan 17 1907 Utah etc.
From:�Glenn Chesnut
To:�AAHistoryLovers group


I'm a little confused here. Is the following correct?

Helen Simis was born on Jan. 17, 1907. She was born in Utah, the daughter of Richard and Lina Simis (both born 1874). Helen Simis later began calling herself Helen Wynn, originally as a stage name.

She married Shepperd Strudwick, Jr. (b. 1907 - d. 1983) on May 10, 1936, when she was 29 years old, but they later divorced. Shepperd ended up marrying another three times.

Shepperd Strudwick III was born in Los Angeles on June 14, 1944, with his mother's maiden name given as Simis. He attended the Harvey School (a boarding school and East Coast college prep school) located in Katonah (a hamlet included within the town of Bedford, New York), translated the French play L'Ete ("Summer") which was performed Off-Broadway in 1973 at the Cherry Lane Theatre, and has been connected with the Williamstown Theatre.

Jared Lobdell found one reference to a "Helen Strudwick" in a ship passenger list from the 1940's -- a passenger who gave her birth date as Jan. 17, 1907, which meant that this was presumably our Helen -- but Cora Finch could find no other evidence of our Helen using the last name Strudwick anyplace else.

Our Helen Wynn -- the one who was Bill Wilson's friend -- died in Switzerland, at the place where the famous Eranos Conferences are held, and NOT in Moroni out in the Indian Ocean.

What was her date of death? March 1978? Our Helen would have been 71 years old in March 1978.

(Bill Wilson died on January 24, 1971, around seven years earlier. At one point -- if I read one of the early sources correctly -- it appears to me that Helen Wynn, Lois Wilson, and Nell Wing were all at Bill's bedside as he lay dying. Is this correct?????

_________________________________

Quoting from the wikipedia articles on Moroni and the Eranos conferences:

MORONI is the largest city in the Union of the Comoros, an archipelago in the Indian Ocean.

ERANOS is a very famous intellectual discussion group dedicated to the study of psychology, religion, philosophy and spirituality which has met annually in Switzerland since 1933. The group was founded by Olga Froebe-Kapteyn, and these conferences have been held annually on the grounds of her estate (on the shores of Lago Maggiore near Ascona in Switzerland) ever since.

Its first theme, 'Yoga and Meditation in East and West,' was a truly pioneering subject in the early 1930s. Past themes include Ancient Sun Cults and the Symbolism of Light in the Gnosis and in Early Christianity (1943), Man and Peace (1958), Creation and Organization (1966) and The Truth of Dreams (1995).

People who have participated in the group include:

Rudolf Otto (the famous German theologian and historian of comparative religions who first suggested that the group be formed)

Mircea Eliade (Romanian, equally famous in the field of comparative religions)

Carl Jung

Gilles Quispel (gnostic studies)

Gershom Scholem (Jewish mysticism)

Joseph Campbell (comparative mythology)

___________________________________

Message 8189 from Charles Knapp (Wisconsin) says: "The General Service Conference Final Reports show Helen Wynn listed as a Grapevine staff member, but never as editor. She was shown on the reports for 1957 - 1961. The 1959,1960 and 1961 reports show her on the Editorial Staff list."
___________________________________

Please see also Message 9710 from Brian Koch:

The question was when did Helen Wynn die.� Research by some of my learned and diligent fellows here produced some data pointing to the Moroni, in the Comoros Islands, March 1978.

The information i recently received from the person who was closest to Helen, and would have knowledge of the subject, contradicts this.� As to the when, the person is not exactly sure of the date, or they have not gotten back to me yet with the date.� As to the where, Her ashes were scattered on the shore of Lake Maggiore outside the town of Ascona (http://www.myswitzerland.com/en-us/ascona.html) located very near the Italian border. The Eranos conference takes place there on an annual basis. I will not attempt to retype what can be found on the web (http://www.eranosfoundation.org/). In short, it is a very spiritual gathering by some of the great minds of the time and covers many philosophical subjects. Carl Jung actually has a significant connection with the conference. (see website).

This, according to my source, is where she lived and died.� Additionally, a bush was planted there by my source. "She loved that place, and the last photos of her were from there."

Previous to this information coming to light, i had queried the state department as to the death of an American in the Comoros Islands, with names either Helen Wynn, or Helen Simis.� There is no record of either name, for any date.

I am hesitant to name the source for this information as they are an extremely private person, and live abroad.� Many of you can probably figure out rather easily who this is, so lets just leave it at that.� If you have made an educated guess as to the persons identity, then you can count on this source as knowing the true story.

Not sure where the information developed regarding Helen and the Comoros Islands. It seems to come from sources considered legitimate. I only offer what i have found out to the group.



| 9756|9756|2014-01-13 07:55:41|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Helen Wynn and the Eranos Conferences|
Could those who have contact with Helen Wynn's son, ask him if Helen attended the Eranos Conferences which were held near Ascona in southern Switzerland (near the Italian border), and followed the discussions which were going on there during the years when she was living in Ascona?

Jung, archetypes, and myths were all important at the Eranos Conferences for part of that period.

What I am wondering is, did Helen Wynn already have important interests in Jungian ideas and allied topics during the period when she and Bill Wilson were close? And was this the reason why she decided to go spend her final years where the Eranos Conferences were held?

Carl Jung had already died, in 1961, so there would have been no point (by that time) in a Jungian enthusiast going to live near Bollingen or Kuesnacht in northern Switzerland.



| 9757|9756|2014-01-13 15:16:56|brian koch|Re: Helen Wynn and the Eranos Conferences|
In an October 15, 1939 article from the New York Times, entitled "Psychology into Psyche" (Or a little bit about Miss Helen Wynn of those Surry (Me.) players, there is some significant bio data from her early life.  (I have a copy if anyone wishes me to send it to them).  Helen, 17 years old, left a job as the "manageress" of a bookstore in Duluth to go to Vienna, to study child psychology. 
 
"Everything was roses-or, rather, neuroses-until they attended there first class under the world renowned Dr. Adler.  The good doktor, being German, not unnaturally addressed the pupils in his native tongue-thereby throwing the three little maids from Minnesota into a collective tailspin.  You really cant get much out of a lecture delivered in German when about all you know of the language is how to call a taxi or carefully "cartafel mit Sauerbraten".
 
The article goes on to share some more information about her meeting with another doctor, Dr Wexeburge of the University of Vienna.  There is reference to this information in Hartigan's book on Bill W, i am surmising that this article was the reference used. In the article Dr. Wexeburge is said to have told Helen and her companions, that if they were fitted for any thing-which he seriously doubted-it was probably the theatre or some such equally frivolous occupation. He was utterly convinced that they would never manage to become female Frueds, or Jungs." 
 
I know this doesnt answer the question of Helen attending the Eranos Conferences, but I found it interesting about her intent to study under Adler.  Not sure how accurate the Joe and Charlie story is about Roland first seeking out Freud and Adler before "settling" on Jung. I am not a student of psychology, so I am not sure of the differences between Adler and Jung, except that Jung was more about the spiritual component required for a change to occur in a person.
 
As an aside, her birthplace, Gold Springs, Utah, sat as a ghost town for many years, before it was finally demolished.  Just another interesting but not terribly important fact.
 
Blessings,
 
Brian
 

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 07:54:48 -0800
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Helen Wynn and the Eranos Conferences

 
Could those who have contact with Helen Wynn's son, ask him if Helen attended the Eranos Conferences which were held near Ascona in southern Switzerland (near the Italian border), and followed the discussions which were going on there during the years when she was living in Ascona?

Jung, archetypes, and myths were all important at the Eranos Conferences for part of that period.

What I am wondering is, did Helen Wynn already have important interests in Jungian ideas and allied topics during the period when she and Bill Wilson were close? And was this the reason why she decided to go spend her final years where the Eranos Conferences were held?

Carl Jung had already died, in 1961, so there would have been no point (by that time) in a Jungian enthusiast going to live near Bollingen or Kuesnacht in northern Switzerland.




| 9758|9758|2014-01-15 15:58:22|kochbrian2249|Thank you all so much|

Today i celebrate the gift of 7 years of continuous sobriety. I want to thank this group and the people that make it up for your contribution to my program of recovery.� I have been blessed in relatively early recovery to have been made aware of the history of Alcoholics Anonymous and its importance.� It has evolved from a curious interest into a real passion of mine, and i have this group to thank for much of that.

I am sure i could go on, and on....and on. But thank you for Trudging the Road to Happy Destiny with me, and educating me and enlightening me.

Blessings,

Brian

| 9759|9759|2014-01-15 16:00:00|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|English Public Health services co-operation with AA|
www.nta.nhs.uk/mutualaidbriefing.aspx
 
| 9760|9760|2014-01-15 16:35:24|J. Lobdell|Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung for help|
From Jared Lobdell and Glenn Chesnut

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" (jlobdell54@hotmail.com)

Cora may know better but I have never read anything suggesting the truth of the Joe-and-Charlie claim. Rowland's family members, best college friend, and other Yale and RI associates had contacts or connections with Jung -- none I know of with Adler or Freud. And besides, Rowland simply didn't have that kind of mind: he was something of a mystic.

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)

The Hazard family papers (preserved at the Rhode Island Historical Society) make it clear that Rowland never even remotely considered going to be psychoanalyzed by Freud or Adler. There were strong family connections with Jung, and the Hazard family practically hand led Rowland to see Jung.

Rowland's cousin Leonard Bacon had already been treated by Jung, in 1925, and was an enthusiastic supporter of Jungianism. He was one of the chief people pushing Rowland into going to Jung for help.

Also Rowland's cousin Carol (daughter of Irving Fisher and Margaret Hazard Fisher, whose married name was Sawyer and later Baumann) moved to Zurich some time in the late 20s. She married a relative of Jung's son-in-law, studied with Jung and lectured on Jungian psychology.

http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/jungstel.pdf

http://hindsfoot.org/jungnote.pdf

_______________________________________

From: brian koch
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014

... I know this doesn't answer the question of Helen attending the Eranos Conferences, but I found it interesting about her intent to study under Adler. Not sure how accurate the Joe and Charlie story is about Roland first seeking out Freud and Adler before "settling" on Jung. I am not a student of psychology, so I am not sure of the differences between Adler and Jung, except that Jung was more about the spiritual component required for a change to occur in a person.


| 9761|9761|2014-01-15 17:09:47|ctribe@ymail.com|Creative intelligence and spirit of the universe|

What is Bill's conception of creative intelligence and spirit of the universe?


| 9762|9761|2014-01-15 17:10:14|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Creative intelligence and spirit of the universe|
ctribe@ymail.com asked: What is Bill's conception of creative intelligence and spirit of the universe?
_________________________________________

The term Creative Intelligence seem to have come from Emmet Fox, but the broader idea of God as Creative Intelligence and Spirit of the Universe went back to Richard Maurice Bucke's book Cosmic Consciousness, the English Romantic poets, the New England Transcendentalists, the formative American poet Walt Whitman, and Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy, to cite authors whom we know had influenced Bill Wilson.

But talking about God in the basic way Bill W. was doing -- Creative Intelligence and Spirit of the Universe -- went back over two thousand years. Christian and Jewish theology in the Roman empire was heavily influenced by pagan Middle Platonic and Neo-Platonic philosophy, which divided God into three levels: (1) the ultimate abyss of unknowability which underlay everything else which existed, (2) Intelligence or Logos, and (3) Psyche or Spirit. Later on in the Middle Ages, Muslim philosophers set up systems based on the same three-fold division.

To see how Emmet Fox described God as "Creative Intelligence," the "Divine Mind," the "Great Mind," or "Infinite Mind," see pages 55, 57-60, 127 of this article:

http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.pdf

http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

See Fox, Sermon on the Mount 35, 109; Fox, Constructive Thinking 165. Also Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality: Philosophical Essays, Hindsfoot Foundation Series on Spirituality and Theology (New York: iUniverse, 2010), see Ch. 14 (pp. 258-281) on "The Three Primal Hypostases," especially the second hypostasis, which is here termed the Logos, but is the same as Nous or Intellectus.

The term "Creative Intelligence"� is used in the book Alcoholics Anonymous on pp. 12, 46, and 49, note also p. 10.

Also see http://hindsfoot.org/inProgr.html


| 9763|9760|2014-01-16 09:37:13|jax760|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung for help|

There are many myths and legends in AA History.....the Freud/Adler/Jung story as told by Joe & Charlie is obviously one of them. As Glenn points out the family had strong ties to Jung...why look anywhere else?

 

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what REALLY happend, and what we are like now............LOL

| 9764|9758|2014-01-16 10:35:36|Jeff Bruce|Re: Thank you all so much|
From Jeff Bruce, Gary C., Victoria Callaway, Joe Monda, and Ken W.

- - - -

From: Jeff Bruce (aliasjb@gmail.com)

Congratulations, Brian. You might note that our text says "the road of happy destiny," not "the road to happy destiny." I take this to mean that a happy life (as opposed to a happy future) is ours. There is joy in today's trudge, and the destination is secondary. At least, that's how I see it.

- - - -

From: Gary C (gaarysober@gmail.com)

well done on 7 years.

- - - -

From: victoria callaway (vsbcall123@gmail.com)

blessings to you and yours

- - - -

From: Joe Monda (josephmonda@yahoo.com)

keep coming back. Happy Birthday

- - - -

From: Ken W (ayceeman@msn.com)

Congrats Brian, I too, celebrate this month, this wonderful gift of sobriety, and all its blessings ... My, how my life has changed since surrendering to this simple program, and trying to "Pass it on" ... have a blessed day ... Ken W ... dos 1/30/01 ...


| 9765|9765|2014-01-16 15:29:14|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Co-operation ...|

 

From: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com
To: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: Co-operation ...
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:42:04 +0000

Also ...
 
www.nta.nhs.uk/Mutualaidselfassessment.aspx

 

| 9766|9766|2014-01-17 06:40:33|b67476426f27bb11c3a70f7c54bb3a33|Dr. Paul Oehlinger|
Does anyone know the dates of his stay at the hospital in Rochester,MN?� I think that I may have crossed paths with him.
| 9767|9767|2014-01-24 10:04:56|Joe Conroy|Lynchpin of the service structure|
The San Diego Area will be hosting PRAASA in March. I've received a question from past delegates:

Do you know anywhere that Bill referred to the area assembly as "the lynchpin of the service structure"?

Thanks in advance, Joe C.


| 9768|9768|2014-01-24 10:13:18|kochbrian2249|First Protestant clergyman member of AA|

As i read Father Pfau's book, Prodigal Shepherd, I see reference, on page 241,  to a minister in Rome, Georgia, whom Father Pfau refers to as "the first Protestant clergyman member of AA".  Does anyone know who this minister was? 

 

Blessings,

 

Brian

| 9769|9769|2014-01-24 10:17:45|club4492002|Did Dr. Silkworth have a relative named Tom Lindwall?|

I have a Second Edition(15th printing)�with either a name of owner or an autograph. The name is Tom Lindwall (Lindwoll?) with the name Silkworth in parentheses underneath it. Anyone know if this is a relative�?

| 9770|9770|2014-01-24 10:19:21|mfmargetis|Letter from Ruth H. to Bill W.|

Hi all,


In an old post from Nancy (Message #1661) there is a transcript of a letter from Ruth Hock to Bill W. dated November 10th, 1955. Do we know where the original is?


Thanks,


-Mike Margetis

 Brunswick Maryland

 mfmargetis@yahoo.com

| 9771|9771|2014-01-24 10:19:56|nkwish|Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
My Group is about to enter Fred's story, so I thought it would be nice to do the same thing with this guy. I started looking up Fred, and it has lead me to the man Harry Brick. From what I can tell, Harry Brick is believed to be Fred on page 39. 

I decided to look for more information on Harry Brick, and found he has a story "A Different Slant" in the first edition. I went ahead and read that on: 

http://silkworth.net/ bbstories/252.html

Its quite a short story, and it even states its short in the first sentence of the story itself. But here's what had me scratching my head.

In the forth paragraph of the story "A Different Slant" it reads..
"The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me."

Well Harry Brick is on the list of the first 100. Number 72 I believe. What struck me is this story used the term "Alcoholics Anonymous". Implying it had its name already when Harry would come in contact with members. Forward to the second edition on page xvii 3rd paragraph states: "The membership had reached about 100 men and women. The fledgling society, which had been nameless, now began to be called Alcoholics Anonymous, from the title of its own book." 

So wouldn't the book have been written when Harry Brink came into contact with AA members if they were already calling themselves Alcoholics Anonymous? The story was in the first edition using the term regardless. My only guess is that the stories were put in later? I know little about the time frame of how the book was written.

It was just an observation I made, and my research lead me to start scratching my head. Any light anyone can shed on this would be much appreciated! 

Thank you for you time!

-Ryan
Fellowship of the Spirit Big Book Study
Pollock Pines, CA
| 9772|9772|2014-01-24 10:44:42|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Chester Conference: Recovery from Addiction, 29-30 April 2014|
From: w.dossett@chester.ac.uk
To: j.stoner@chester.ac.uk
Subject: Chester Conference: Recovery from Addiction, 29&30 April 2014
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:11:53 +0000





Dear Friends of the Higher Power Project
With apologies for cross-posting, please find attached details of the forthcoming conference:
Recovery from Addiction: Bridging the Gap between Policy and Practice
University of Chester 29th & 30th April, 2014.
We hope that you will be interested in attending the event and would be grateful for any help that you can give us to promote the event through your networks.
Booking details are attached, if you have any queries please contact Tim Roberts on 07917-092757 or roberts.t@chester.ac.uk
Very best wishes,
Wendy


Dr Wendy Dossett
Dept of Theology and Religious Studies
University of Chester
CHESTER
CH1 4BJ
UK
Tel:+ 44 (0)1244 513975
www.chester.ac.uk/higherpowerproject
@higherpowerproj








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9773|9770|2014-01-24 10:45:25|joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net|Re: Letter from Ruth H. to Bill W.|
Mike M.

Try and a request GSO Archives.
The GSO Archivist is Michele�
at aa.org.

Joseph H.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 22, 2014, at 1:19 PM, <mfmargetis@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi all,


In an old post from Nancy (Message #1661) there is a transcript of a letter from Ruth Hock to Bill W. dated November 10th, 1955. Do we know where the original is?


Thanks,


-Mike Margetis

�Brunswick Maryland

mfmargetis@yahoo.com

| 9774|9770|2014-01-24 10:45:46|richard.bement|Re: Letter from Ruth H. to Bill W.|

I am the Rich B to whom the Minneapolis reference is made. I gave Nancy a copy of the letter. I know who gave this to me if that is important.

| 9775|9775|2014-01-25 10:02:18|rickshevitt|Spouses at meetings in the 1940's|
At my Thursday book study several of us history buffs (AA nerds) got stumped by the question "Did the wives of alcoholics attend AA meetings in the early days?"
We thought the answer was yes, but when asked to back it up they said "Rick, go look it up"

I can find info about Oxford type meetings pre-1939. And Dr Bob certainly encouraged wives to attend Akron meetings while he was with us.
But what about the rest of AA?
I have a lot of resource material about individual members of AA but not about AA meetings themselves.
I've only been in AA since 1984, and picking the brains of all the old-timers I know and have known only takes me back to the around 1960. Beyond that it's hearsay and myth
Any help would be appreciated.

Also, since Yahoo changed to the new format last year, I haven't been able to search AA History Lovers (for topics like the one above)
Any help the would be greatly appreciated�
rick from reseda
| 9776|9771|2014-01-29 10:46:41|rsmith77379|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>
There are several references to calling the fellowship "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the first printing. I've seen references that say that the term was starting to be used in late '38 even.

While Clarence S. claims that he was the first AFTER the book....that likely isn't 100% factual. He does seem to be the first to hold "closed" meetings for alcoholics only.

Dick S
Houston Tx

> So wouldn't the book have been written when Harry Brink came into contact with AA members if they were already calling themselves Alcoholics Anonymous? The story was in the first edition using the term regardless. My only guess is that the stories were put in later? I know little about the time frame of how the book was written.
>
>
> It was just an observation I made, and my research lead me to start scratching my head. Any light anyone can shed on this would be much appreciated!
>
>
> Thank you for you time!
>
>
> -Ryan
> Fellowship of the Spirit Big Book Study
> Pollock Pines, CA
>
| 9777|9771|2014-01-29 11:31:32|Arthur|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
1938 - August 5, the "Alcoholic Foundation"� was established as a charitable trust with a board of five Trustees. The first meeting took place on August 11. The trust indenture document specified that non-alcoholic trustees were to make up a majority of the board. The terms "Class A"� and "Class B"� trustees were used to make a distinction between non-alcoholic and alcoholic board members. Non-alcoholic board members were Willard S Richardson, Frank B Amos (Secretary and Treasurer) and attorney John E F Wood (a friend of Frank Amos). Richardson served on the board until April 1949 and was the first Trustee Emeritus serving until his death in 1952. Wood's term on the board was brief and he resigned in December 1939. His focus was on the preparation of the original Trust Agreement document. One of the early challenges facing Wood in preparing it was legally defining the difference between an alcoholic and non-alcoholic. Alcoholic board members were Dr Bob and NY member Bill R (Big Book Story "A Business Man's Recovery"�). Bill R was the first Board Chairman but returned to drinking and resigned in February 1939 after serving less than five months. An advisory committee to the board was established consisting of A LeRoy Chipman, Bill W, Albert L Scott and Hank P. Bill R was allowed to join the Advisory Committee after his resignation as a Class B Trustee. Morgan R and Robert F joined the committee in 1940.

1939 - January 18, The Alcoholic Foundation Board increased from five to seven members. New members were alcoholic Harry B (Big Book Story "A Different Slant"�) as the newly appointed second Board Chairman and Dr Leonard V Strong (Bill W's brother-in-law). Harry B also later returned to drinking and was replaced in December 1939 after serving a little under a year. Foundation Trustees could appoint their own successors and were "chartered to do everything under the sun."� After the first two alcoholic Board Chairmen returned to drinking, from 1939 on the Board Chair has been a non-alcoholic. Dr Strong served on the board as a Class A Trustee until October 1954 and was a Trustee Emeritus until July 1960. He passed away on April 26, 1989.

1939 - December 27, Robert Shaw (a friend of Willard Richardson) joined the Alcoholic Foundation Board as the third Chairman and first non-alcoholic to hold the position. He passed away in September 1941.

Cheers

Arthur

_______________________________________________

From: nkwish@gmail.com Subject: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?

My Group is about to enter Fred's story, so I thought it would be nice to do the same thing with this guy. I started looking up Fred, and it has lead me to the man Harry Brick. From what I can tell, Harry Brick is believed to be Fred on page 39.

-Ryan
Fellowship of the Spirit Big Book Study
Pollock Pines, CA


| 9778|9770|2014-01-29 11:33:34|Arthur|Re: Letter from Ruth H. to Bill W.|

I have a PDF file if anyone wants it. It's a brief 6-page early history of AA based on Ruth's recollections.

Cheers

Arthur

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joseph_blackwolf@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 12:33 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Letter from Ruth H. to Bill W.

Mike M.

Try and a request GSO Archives.

The GSO Archivist is Michele

at aa.org.

Joseph H.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 22, 2014, at 1:19 PM, mfmargetis@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi all,

In an old post from Nancy (Message #1661) there is a transcript of a letter from Ruth Hock to Bill W. dated November 10th, 1955. Do we know where the original is?

Thanks,

-Mike Margetis

Brunswick Maryland

mfmargetis@yahoo.com

| 9779|9779|2014-01-30 08:18:31|ROGER WHEATLEY|Searching for topics in AAHL messages in new Yahoo format|
"Also, since Yahoo changed to the new format last year, I haven't been able to search AA History Lovers (for topics like the one above)"

I agree and have seen the same comment more than a few times since the format changed. If anyone has cracked the code on searching old posts easily, I would love to see a tutorial posted. I am not a technical and software changes like this are a constant source of frustration in my daily life. Any help would be appreciated. It sure makes the archiving of these posts much more appealing to me in the future. Hope that is going well.

 
| 9780|9775|2014-01-30 09:40:16|abit4343@att.net|Re: Spouses at meetings in the 1940s|
From abit4343, Charles Knapp, J. Blair, Glenn Chesnut, Cecilia, aa061035, and maxbott@yahoo.com

- - - -

From: abit4343@att.net

My father came into AA in 1943, in Cleveland Ohio. I came in in 1972. On talking to my mother, years after my father died, we were trying to remember his sponsor's name - we had a group roster from 1946. She told me -and she is a reliable source- that on Friday nights his sponsor and his wife would come over before the meeting. The sponsor, with my father and mother would go to the meeting. The sponsor's wife would babysit us kids. So yes wives did attend and it wasn't all that unusual. Even in the early 70's I remember where the wives had their own table at the meeting. It often meant good cakes and cookies were available.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp = cpknapp@yahoo.com

Hello,

I know of a couple examples of wives/husbands attending meeting in Southern California. The Riverside, California group started in 1945 and met in a m mber's home. The Area 09 Archives has the minutes from their first meetings and it clearly showed husband and wives attending these meetings. It was always "Mr & Mrs" with only a few single members listed in attendance.

The Cecil Hotel Meeting in Los Angles had a format of the first half of the meeting was open to all .... then they took a break and the last half of the meeting was for alcoholics only. Sybil C was told she would have to leave and go with the other wives because they didn't think women could be alcoholic. She broke down crying cause AA was the last hope for her. She always told this as part of her story

In Southern California, especially in the Long Beach area, they had "Family Meetings" where the whole family would attend the weekly meetings. In Long Beach this was started by a future Al-Anon member, Flossie L. She believed that the alcoholic would recover more quickly if the spouses knew what was going on at the meetings and had a part in their recovery. Later on in the 50's and 60's these turned into monthly meeting where one meeting a month was set aside for a "Family Meeting." The Long Beach Family Meetings eventually died out and not sure when this practice stopped.

From old meeting Southern California directories I found the following Family Groups. Keep in mind these are the date of the directory not the date the group started:
1947 29 Palms Family Group - 29 Palms
1947 Avalon Group - Catalina Island (held in the summer home of Al S. founder of AA in San Diego)
1947 Paramont Family Group - Paramont
1948 Westside Family Group - Riverside
1948 Westside Family Group - Los Angeles
1950 Victorville Group - Victorvile
1954 San Bernardino Family Group - San Bernardino
1960 Big Bear Family Group - Big Bear

Hope these examples help.

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: "J. Blair" = jblair@videotron.ca


In Montreal, wives did not attend group meetings as these were closed and they were really problem solving meetings.

However, in the mid 50's they started an all groups, open meeting on Saturday night and this became a real social event to mix and mingle with wives present.

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut = glennccc@sbcglobal.net

On most things like this, as far as my observations have reached, practices varied around the country. We maybe need to get out of the mindset that there was one precisely defined "correct" way of running an AA meeting that we can force people to use today.

When I put two books together about earliest AA in northwestern Indiana and southwestern Michigan (where AA began in February 1943), I found that the first meetings were house meetings. The spouses sat in the kitchen and the alcoholics sat in the living room when the actual meeting was in progress, but of course everybody in the kitchen could hear everybody in the living room. Somewhat peculiarly however, the first black alcoholics (like Jimmy Miller, Bill Hoover, and Brownie c. 1948-1950) were also made to sit in the kitchen instead of the living room.

After they had several house meetings in a city (such as South Bend or Elkhart) a new alcoholic was asked to choose one of these discussion meetings to attend each week, and was also asked to go to a large open speaker meeting held on one evening a week, where everybody (alcoholics and spouses) attended and sat together.

The house meetings weren't segregated sexually. From an early period, there were women alcoholics attending these AA meetings and sitting in the living room. Sometimes it was a husband-wife pair where both were alcoholics, sometimes it was a wife whose husband was also an alcoholic but refused to go to AA meetings, but often it was a single woman alcoholic.

This information is from oldtimers who had attended those meetings in the 1940's, plus tape recordings of other oldtimers (such as the secretary who sent out all the meeting notices in Elkhart, etc.) dsecribing what it was like when they first came in. They were all in agreement that this is the way it was done in this part of Indiana and Michigan (centering around South Bend and Elkhart). But that doesn't mean it was done the same way in New York or California or Texas during that period, or even in other parts of Indiana and Michigan.

See "The Factory Owner and the Convict" http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html
and "The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man" http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html

Just as a side note, in South Bend, in the 1990's, there was a large weekly discussion meeting made up half and half of AA people (both men and women) with lots of time in the program and Al-Anons (both men and women) with lots of time in the program. Plus one gay couple where one man was an AA and the other was an Al-Anon. The members did not register this group as either an AA meeting or an Al-Anon meeting, to keep from becoming embroiled in continual controversy, and when newcomers showed up, it was suggested to them that they would find it much more helpful to attend a regular AA meeting or Al-Anon meeting. But it was an extremely good meeting, with lots of real wisdom being spoken, and to be honest, on most topics you wouldn't be able to tell whether the person speaking was AA or Al-Anon. And mirabile dictu none of the alcoholic attendees went out and got drunk, in spite of sitting at the same table with Al-Anons, and none of the Al-Anons murdered their spouses (which as we all know is one tell tale sign of an Al-Anon slip).

- - - -

From: Cecilia = cecearcher@juno.com

As I understand it from the book "Lois Remember" the wives were in the kitchen making and serving the coffee at the early AA meetings.

Cecilia

- - - -

From: aa061035@gmail.com

Al-Anon and Alateen Santa Barbara

http://www.alanonsantabarbara.info/More_About_Al-Anon/Fun_Facts_About_Al-Anon/A_Brief_History_of_Al-Anon.aspx

A Brief History of Al-Anon

Al-Anon is almost as old as Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Al-Anon was started by Lois W., wife of AA cofounder Bill W., and Anne B., a close friend of Lois'. In the formative years of AA, the wives and relatives of AA's realized that they too could improve their lives by applying the spiritual principles of AA.

While the AA's were attending their meetings, their loved ones often waited in their cars. Soon they started to come in from the cold and hold their own meetings to discuss their own common problems, while the AA's were at their meeting.

By 1948 a number of these family groups applied to the A.A. General Service Office to be listed in the A.A. Meeting Directory. Because of AA's singleness of purpose, these groups could not be included in the directory.

In 1951, Lois and Anne, created a Clearing House Committee to service 87 inquirers and to coordinate and serve them. Through this effort, 56 groups responded. They chose the name of their groups from the first syllables of "Alcoholics Anonymous" and they adopted the name Al-Anon Family Groups. They adopted the Twelve Steps of AA and later the Twelve Traditions, in the slightly modified form we know today.

Source: 2006-2009 Al-Anon/Alateen Service Manual

- - - -

From: maxbott@yahoo.com

I have the same problem. Depending on what one calls an old timer. They are now pretty much all gone with a few exceptions. And just because there are things in print, does not mean it's true. I remember printing things in my past that was far from true. I have been trying to develop relations with some of the older folks that can tie their recovery connections back to the old timers directly/personally and it's been helping. A few say it was always accepted that the wives was indeed allowed. That they was part of the problem and needed to be part of the solution. But then I have run into a couple older fellas who say otherwise. So, I think that this topic may be impossible to prove one way or the other.

Bill, Arago Oregon
| 9781|9779|2014-01-30 09:54:26|tomper87|Re: Searching for topics in AAHL messages in new Yahoo format|
Go to top of the page where it says Search Conversations.  Type in your search
topic ("use quotations if you want to be specific") and click the Search Groups
tab.  Good luck.
| 9782|9768|2014-01-30 09:59:56|bobhickey674|Re: First Protestant clergyman member of AA|

I believe you are talking about the Rev. Samuel Daughtry, the Pastor of the First Christian Church of Rome , GA.. In the June 2, 1947 Virginian Pilot, Norfolk VA, there is an article about him coming to Norfolk at the request of the Tidewater Group of Alcoholics Anonymous. There is a full face picture of him in the article. The meeting was open to the public. He is characterized as "an intelligent leader of a progress church" who believes that alcoholism is a psychological disorder and that alcoholics must be treated as "sick persons rather then as addicts of the anti-social vice" if they are ever to be rehabilitate.

if you would like a copy of it let me know. Bob Hickey Norfolk,District 14 Archivist.

| 9783|9771|2014-01-30 10:07:21|Chuck Parkhurst|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|

Lots of great info as always, but does not answer the question

also is the fellowship named after the book or is the book named after the fellowship?

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

� Note:�� If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history, which includes my email address. It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world. Erasing the history also helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and prevents the spread of computer viruses.

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Arthur
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 12:41 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?




1938 - August 5, the "Alcoholic Foundation" was established as a charitable trust with a board of five Trustees. The first meeting took place on August 11. The trust indenture document specified that non-alcoholic trustees were to make up a majority of the board. The terms "Class A" and "Class B" trustees were used to make a distinction between non-alcoholic and alcoholic board members. Non-alcoholic board members were Willard S Richardson, Frank B Amos (Secretary and Treasurer) and attorney John E F Wood (a friend of Frank Amos). Richardson served on the board until April 1949 and was the first Trustee Emeritus serving until his death in 1952. Wood's term on the board was brief and he resigned in December 1939. His focus was on the preparation of the original Trust Agreement document. One of the early challenges facing Wood in preparing it was legally defining the difference between an alcoholic and non-alcoholic. Alcoholic board members were Dr Bob and NY member Bill R (Big Book Story "A Business Man's Recovery"). Bill R was the first Board Chairman but returned to drinking and resigned in February 1939 after serving less than five months. An advisory committee to the board was established consisting of A LeRoy Chipman, Bill W, Albert L Scott and Hank P. Bill R was allowed to join the Advisory Committee after his resignation as a Class B Trustee. Morgan R and Robert F joined the committee in 1940.

1939 - January 18, The Alcoholic Foundation Board increased from five to seven members. New members were alcoholic Harry B (Big Book Story "A Different Slant") as the newly appointed second Board Chairman and Dr Leonard V Strong (Bill W's brother-in-law). Harry B also later returned to drinking and was replaced in December 1939 after serving a little under a year. Foundation Trustees could appoint their own successors and were "chartered to do everything under the sun." After the first two alcoholic Board Chairmen returned to drinking, from 1939 on the Board Chair has been a non-alcoholic. Dr Strong served on the board as a Class A Trustee until October 1954 and was a Trustee Emeritus until July 1960. He passed away on April 26, 1989.

1939 - December 27, Robert Shaw (a friend of Willard Richardson) joined the Alcoholic Foundation Board as the third Chairman and first non-alcoholic to hold the position. He passed away in September 1941.

Cheers

Arthur

_______________________________________________

From: nkwish@gmail.com Subject: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?

My Group is about to enter Fred's story, so I thought it would be nice to do the same thing with this guy. I started looking up Fred, and it has lead me to the man Harry Brick. From what I can tell, Harry Brick is believed to be Fred on page 39.

-Ryan
Fellowship of the Spirit Big Book Study
Pollock Pines, CA




| 9784|9770|2014-01-30 10:25:09|Arthur|Re: Letter from Ruth H. to Bill W.|
I should have investigated this a bit more carefully - I missed one additional source. There is a partial (and modified) transcript of Ruth's brief history contained in the August/September 2007 issue of Box 4-5-9 which can be downloaded from the AA.org web site.

For those of you that have asked for a PDF file of a full copy of Ruth's 6-page original letter I'll send both to you.

Cheers

Arthur

=====================================================
Folks, please, when you call up an AAHistoryLovers message and click on the button that says REPLY, your email does NOT go to the person who wrote the message, but to the general AAHistoryLovers Pending Message page.

We have no button we can click to forward that email to the person you were actually trying to contact.

So if you want to do something like, for example, request a copy of a document from Arthur S., please use your browser to write an email directly to him at his home email address, which in this case is arthur.s@live.com
=====================================================


| 9785|9771|2014-01-30 10:28:47|brian koch|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
Some more good information (at least according to me), regarding Harry Brick.

born 24 Oct 1891, died 24 Jan 1966, he and his wife Joan are buried in Cedar Hill Cemetery, Hartford CT, Section 2, Lot 31. Unsure of sobriety status at the time of his death.

Blessings,

Brian


| 9786|2586|2014-01-31 16:01:41|Glenn Chesnut|Open and closed meetings|
From: Lindsay Midgett = linsla51@bellsouth.net

Hey!
I requested information on the beginnings of open and closed meetings from GSO Archives a few months back........  I've highlighted things you might find interesting - Lindsay

Background on the evolution of "open" and "closed" meeting.

Although we cannot provide a definite date for the start of closed meetings, our A.A. literature, namely, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age and Pass It On, show the gradual development of 'closed' meetings as early as 1935.  For a number of years, a few early A.A. members, along with Bill W., held 'special' meetings of their own, while still attending Oxford Group meetings. They realized how vital it was to address the single issue of recovery instead of the Oxford Group's program that was focusing on all aspects of Christian living.  The first A.A. members started having a second 'alcoholics only' meeting after Oxford Group meetings - "Tensions began to develop between the main group at Calvary Church and Bill's struggling band of alcoholics.  The Oxford Group leaders resented the fact that Bill was holding separate meetings for Alcoholics at Clinton Street.  They criticized his work with the alcoholics as being "narrow and divisive." The alcoholics, on the other hand, felt that they needed these special meetings because many of the nonalcoholic O.G. members did not understand them." [Pass It On, page 169]

Therefore, the first closed meeting started sometime in the late 1930's. However, it is important to keep in mind that as meetings were organized throughout the country and the world, many of those were still started by a non-alcoholic friend, such as a local medical doctor or member of the clergy who became aware of the A.A. program and believed that establishing a group would and could be helpful in the local community. We know about A.A.'s first gathering at doctors' or judges' office.  The development of closed meetings would be a later step in these communities.

In August 1944, the A.A. Grapevine featured an article that addressed the issue of 'closed' meeting: "Closed meetings are for the purpose of discussing personal problems concerning alcohol, problems that one does not feel free to discuss in the presence of non-alcoholics.

A.A. Headquarters' first secretary Ruth Hock, addressed a concern raised by a member on 'closed' and 'open' meeting. Ruth wrote: "Meetings all over the country vary but little.  When meetings are small, as they are in all new groups, usually they are held as an open discussion meeting.  That is, one man is appointed chairman for the evening - he tells something of his own story and how he applies A.A. to his own particular problems and needs.  He then invites questions and answers them to the best of his ability or allows someone else to do so.

As the meetings grow larger, they must perchance be somewhat more formal..the same policy is followed, for a chairman is appointed for the evening and he in turn asks three or four others to speak in conjunction with him.

Almost all groups have at least one meeting a week where wives, mothers, and friends can attend if they care too.  While the group is small the meetings are not thrown open to all corners unless the members themselves decide to do so, that is, they are usually restricted to close relatives, close friends, etc.  But when they get larger and held along the lines of the New York meeting described above, they are usually thrown open to anyone who cares to attend. We sometimes have a minister address the meeting, or a priest, or a doctor, etc.[Letter: September 16, 1941]

In the early days, special types of group meetings were organized to accommodate the growing A.A. population.

Our co-founder's comments:

Open Discussion Meetings

In general, if there was an AA meeting in which non-alcoholics were free to share, this was not considered a "regular open meeting," but was often called an "open discussion meeting."

In Doctor Bob and the good Old-timers, this "open discussion meeting" format is discussed: "When the A.A.'s did break away from the O.G. their wives very likely had a lot to do with the move, as we have seen.  Then, especially as single men and women alcoholics began coming into the program, there was friction with the wives.  This resulted in 'closed meetings' for alcoholics only, as well as 'open meetings' at which the nonalcoholic wives were not allowed to speak.  Later, the situation was to balance out, with the establishment of such compromises as 'open discussion meeting,' in which wives and other nonmembers were invited to participate." (p.237)

There is another reference to "open discussion meetings" in the 1968 General Service Conference Report: Regular open meetings are the most important and necessary meetings.  Most alcoholics are a bit doubtful and timid about attending their first meeting. If they can have their spouse, a member of the family, or someone close accompany them, it helps their morale and bolsters their courage.Open discussion meetings are very good because everyone present can take part. Sometimes the discussions are quite lively. A good chairman will keep the meeting under control.  When a member has a problem he would like to discuss with the group, he gets a lot of answers and most times a solution.  We feel free to discuss our problems at this meeting because everyone is interested and willing to help.  (1968 General Service Conference Report: Comments from Western Pennsylvania Delegate Rose B.)

As you know, Bill W. refrained from intervening on local affairs and was therefore open minded in his criticism when asked about meeting formats.

In response to a member's question of having non-alcoholic women at A.A. meetings, Bill wrote:

As groups get larger and break down into smaller units, a trend always develops toward:

1. A large central mixed meeting, weekly or monthly. (Outsides sometimes free to come)

2. Meetings in smaller groups for alcoholics only. (These sometimes take the form of instruction meetings in spots where there is no "sponsorship" system)

3. Mixed social events. (Organized or spontaneous)

While the form of these trends varies greatly from place to place, the underlying idea is always the same: That to be most effective for the alcoholic, A.A eventually reached into other areas such as family, friends, employers, doctors, clergy, public relations as a whole - in fact into the whole community in which the alcoholic lives.

Just how a particular AA locality is going to meet this situation (after it becomes clear) is up to the people in it and never to an outsider like me.

My experience is that the dawning of the realization that AA has to be inclusive is often a slow process which can't be hurried.  The more one pushes the more resistance is generated.  Still slower to come is the general agreement just how details ought to be handled.  In these respects, AA is always a 'growth' - never a 'leap.' Leaping where angels fear to tread is just as unprofitable with us as elsewhere!" [Letter: January 25, 1945]

In the following letter dated December 14, 1949, Bill wrote to a member in Michigan who was instrumental in conducting the first "open meeting to the public" in Pontiac.

"While the so-called public meeting is questioned by many AA members, I favor them myself providing anonymity is respected at the public level and that we ask for nothing for ourselves except understanding.

Apparently you folks of Pontiac produced just such an event.  I hope it brings you a lot of drunks."

Bill addresses the issue of both narcotics and A.A. members attending a group meeting to member Paul G. Paul had written to Bill stating that the medical facility in Vacaville, California had combined alcoholics and narcotics into one group -"They read the first step at their meeting as follows 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and narcotics.'" Bill responded with the following:

"A year or two ago I had quite a correspondence with Betty T. respecting the narcotic business.  I think I advised her that she could certainly bring narcotic cases to an open A.A. meeting. Neither could I see anything but benefit if a person like herself, bearing the double stigma, tried to carry the message to addict groups not bearing the A.A. name.  The principle is that no group should use the A.A. name which is not strictly an A.A. activity; on the other hand, any A.A. member has the right to participate and help any group that he or she wishes, purely as an individual member.

There is a further principle. If, for example, an A.A. group actually votes to have a preacher or psychiatrist or an addict on its program - and that is the will of the group-then no one can really object.  But of course, a strong objection can be raised where these speakers are forced on the attention of the group without the group's consent.  This has sometimes happened, I believe.  On the principle of group sovereignty, an A.A. group in prison can, and sometimes does, invite other inmates to their open meetings. This, it seems to me, is purely their own affair. Just so long as we don't form mixed groups and put the A.A. name in the title, we seem to be okay.  That's the point where trouble usually starts." [Letter: October 8, 1957]

Yet on the subject of narcotics, Bill wrote:

"I perfectly understand the difficulty you are having on the Coast with the narcotic problem. Here the same principle is involved.  A year or two ago I had an extensive corresponded with a gal who was trying to do her best for those poor unfortunates. She is an A.A. and also a narcotic which enables her to form a rapport with them.  She was all for mixed groups, or worse still, introducing narcotics into A.A. membership.

These practices I very much discouraged.  However, I did give her every encouragement, as an individual, to try to help these people.  I did also say that I saw no reason why she should not bring them to open meetings where they might see and here how A.A. works in order to make an adaptation for themselves.  After all, an open meeting is an open meeting.  But this did not include group membership, or speaking to A.A. groups on the subject of narcotic addiction.  I think this was made quite clear, and I hope that this is the line we ought to take.

While we should look with disfavor upon any misuse of the A.A. name in connection with these mixed groups or anything that resembles an endorsement, I do not however think that we can put an electric fence around ourselves and refuse individual members the privilege of helping in other problem areas. If we carry it too far, that could be considered anti-social.

My observations of these problems over a long period is this: do not use the A.A. name in connection with what is not strictly an A.A. activity." [Letter: October 18, 1957]


| 9787|9775|2014-01-31 16:08:01|J.BARRY MURTAUGH|Re: Spouses at meetings in the 1940s|
In Barrington in the early 80's my wife and I went to a Couples Group. AAs and spouses. Some spouse were Al-Anon some not. Some were both AAs. One couple was my sponsor at the time. Another was my sponsor a a later stage. Worked for a while. In the end it fizzled out. Sad to say only two couples now remain married. My wife and I and another couple. There was a lot of divorces but the AAs stayed sober til now or until they passed.

Bear


| 9788|9771|2014-02-05 16:52:12|David Mann|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
Is the fellowship named after the book or is the book named after the fellowship?

===========================
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 Chuck Parkhurst wrote: "Lots of great info as always, but does not answer the question ... is the fellowship named after the book or is the book named after the fellowship?
===========================

This is the Foreword as it appeared in the first printing of the first edition in 1939:

"WE, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and woman who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book."

I believe this would indicate that the book was named after the fellowship since this had to be written before the book was published.

as always,
David M

NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: The final manuscript was delivered to Cornwall Press in March 1939, and the printing of the book was finished in April 1939. Regardless of which came first, the title of the book or the name of the organization that was publishing it, this seems to show that the national Alcoholics Anonymous organization was officially calling itself "Alcoholics Anonymous" by that time, and doing so in its most important written document.
| 9789|9771|2014-02-05 17:14:58|Dudley Dobinson|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
According to Bill W. the fellowship was named after the Big Book. Please see page 17 of the foreword to the 12 x 12. The book was called "Alcoholics Anonymous" and from it the Fellowship took its name.

Dudley D. (Birr, Ireland)

==============================================
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions page 17:
"... the infant Society determined to set down its experience in a book which finally reached the public in April 1939. At this time the recoveries numbered about one hundred. The book was called 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and from it the Fellowship took its name."
==============================================


| 9790|9771|2014-02-05 17:21:59|hdmozart|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
From 'The Authors' edited by Fiona Dodd, 'Harry was probably an accountant. He is believe to be "Fred, a partner in a well known accounting firm" whose story is told on pages 39 through 43 of the Big Book.'


| 9791|9791|2014-02-05 17:23:39|CHRISTINA HURST|Old AA poster on what a dollar in the basket was worth|
  I remember about 15-20 years ago General Service Office put out a poster that showed the cost of bread in 1935 to the cost today and the cost of a gallon of gas to the cost today. The point was to encourage more than one dollar being put into the 7th Tradition Basket since it has not changed much.

Does anyone have a picture of that poster I could get a copy of?

 

Thanks

Chris

| 9792|9768|2014-02-05 17:25:12|kochbrian2249|Re: First Protestant clergyman member of AA|

I found out some information when i contacted the church in Rome, Georgia. The following came from the church secretary

 

Sam Daughtry was called in Sept. 1943, at a salary of $140/month.  Dr. Daughtry and his wife, Frances, were popular and respected and the church prospered under his ministry.  By February 1944, he had secured pledges of $4099 and paid off the mortgage on the church with enough left to buy a war bond to be used to reroof the church after the war.  A mortgage burning ceremony was held on Feb. 27, 1944. 

 

By 1946, the church was at last prospering: enough to raise the minister's salary to $3600/yr.  Dr. Daughtry was very active in AA's (that's how it is written in history so it might mean more than one chapter maybe?) and that organization was granted permission to use the church basement for meetings. 

 

The War Bond was used in 1947 to purchase an organ for the church.  Frances Daughtry was a fine organist and the choir began its tradition of excellent, vital participation in the worship service.  Dr. and Mrs. Daughtry gave a set of chimes to the church as memorials to their mothers.  The organ and chime were dedicated on Sunday, Dec. 28, with Dr. Robert Burns of  Peachtree Church, Atlanta, delivering the sermon. 

 

The Christian Evangelist carried an article in the Dec. 31, 1947 issue reporting that the church was prospering under Dr. Daughtry.  It is noted that the sanctuary had been painted, a new stove purchased, and the mortgage paid.  Dr. Daughtry resigned in 1949 to accept a position with a Presbyterian church effective November 20.

 

 

Further, i found Rev Daughtry's next calling to be at Sinking Spring Presbyterian Church, Abingdon VA. I am waiting on more information from them.....

 
| 9793|9775|2014-02-05 17:29:29|kdxkd@juno.com|Re: Spouses at meetings in the 1940s|
As Glenn and others have noted, meetings varied. Here are a few additional examples of early references:
 
A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might bring their problems. (Alcoholics Anonymous, pages 159-160)
 
ROUND TABLE SCHEDULED
The Brooklyn-Parma Group has scheduled a round-table discussion for Friday evening, February 26th, at Our Lady of Good Counsel Hall, 4427 Pearl Road. This will be an open meeting, with everyone invited. (Central Bulletin, February 1943, Cleveland,Ohio)

BORTON NEWS
The Borton Group held an open meeting, Monday, November 1st, at which a number of the clergy of E. Cleveland churches attended. The meeting was led by a well-known member who has been in A.A. over five years. He led a wonderful meeting followed by a lot of good discussion which the clergy participated in. The clergy joined in asking questions and I’m sure they obtained a better viewpoint of AA and its principles. The clergy not on!y gave a fine talk on religion but also asked questions which made the meeting very interesting. There was a large attendance at the meeting with visitors from other Groups. (Central Bulletin, November 1943, Cleveland,Ohio)
 
The Central Committee met Feb. 1. Twenty-three groups were represented. The chief discussion was on the proposed to continue holding occasional consolidated meetings downtown. While the groups had previously rejected the suggestion that such meetings be open to “interested outsiders,” members of the committee were asked to refer the question to the groups again. Some members thought preachers, doctors and politicians as well as alcoholics should be admitted to the meetings by invitation. Some thought the meetings should be for members of AA esclusively. On a roll call, representatives of 14 groups said they personally favored meetings open to interested outsiders; representatives of four groups were neutral, four against. (Central Bulletin, February 1944, Cleveland,Ohio)
 
CLOSED MEETING DEFINITION
In the last Bulletin we stated that all Cleveland group meetings were generally closed meetings. Clarence S., formerly, of Cleveland, writes us from New Jersey that this might be misconstrued. He informs us that in most cities, closed meetings mean meetings for alcoholics only, and that wives and husbands of members were excluded. So we hasten to correct our statement. In practically every group in Cleveland, wives and husbands of members attend. (Central Bulletin, August 1947, Cleveland,Ohio)
 
Best regards, Denny A., Cleveland, Indiana

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "abit4343@att.net"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Spouses at meetings in the 1940s
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 01:24:04 -0000

 

From abit4343, Charles Knapp, J. Blair, Glenn Chesnut, Cecilia, aa061035, and maxbott@yahoo.com

- - - -

From: abit4343@att.net

My father came into AA in 1943, in Cleveland Ohio. I came in in 1972. On talking to my mother, years after my father died, we were trying to remember his sponsor's name - we had a group roster from 1946. She told me -and she is a reliable source- that on Friday nights his sponsor and his wife would come over before the meeting. The sponsor, with my father and mother would go to the meeting. The sponsor's wife would babysit us kids. So yes wives did attend and it wasn't all that unusual. Even in the early 70's I remember where the wives had their own table at the meeting. It often meant good cakes and cookies were available.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp = cpknapp@yahoo.com

Hello,

I know of a couple examples of wives/husbands attending meeting in Southern California. The Riverside, California group started in 1945 and met in a m mber's home. The Area 09 Archives has the minutes from their first meetings and it clearly showed husband and wives attending these meetings. It was always "Mr & Mrs" with only a few single members listed in attendance.

The Cecil Hotel Meeting in Los Angles had a format of the first half of the meeting was open to all .... then they took a break and the last half of the meeting was for alcoholics only. Sybil C was told she would have to leave and go with the other wives because they didn't think women could be alcoholic. She broke down crying cause AA was the last hope for her. She always told this as part of her story

In Southern California, especially in the Long Beach area, they had "Family Meetings" where the whole family would attend the weekly meetings. In Long Beach this was started by a future Al-Anon member, Flossie L. She believed that the alcoholic would recover more quickly if the spouses knew what was going on at the meetings and had a part in their recovery. Later on in the 50's and 60's these turned into monthly meeting where one meeting a month was set aside for a "Family Meeting." The Long Beach Family Meetings eventually died out and not sure when this practice stopped.

From old meeting Southern California directories I found the following Family Groups. Keep in mind these are the date of the directory not the date the group started:
1947 29 Palms Family Group - 29 Palms
1947 Avalon Group - Catalina Island (held in the summer home of Al S. founder of AA in San Diego)
1947 Paramont Family Group - Paramont
1948 Westside Family Group - Riverside
1948 Westside Family Group - Los Angeles
1950 Victorville Group - Victorvile
1954 San Bernardino Family Group - San Bernardino
1960 Big Bear Family Group - Big Bear

Hope these examples help.

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: "J. Blair" = jblair@videotron.ca

In Montreal, wives did not attend group meetings as these were closed and they were really problem solving meetings.

However, in the mid 50's they started an all groups, open meeting on Saturday night and this became a real social event to mix and mingle with wives present.

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut = glennccc@sbcglobal.net

On most things like this, as far as my observations have reached, practices varied around the country. We maybe need to get out of the mindset that there was one precisely defined "correct" way of running an AA meeting that we can force people to use today.

When I put two books together about earliest AA in northwestern Indiana and southwestern Michigan (where AA began in February 1943), I found that the first meetings were house meetings. The spouses sat in the kitchen and the alcoholics sat in the living room when the actual meeting was in progress, but of course everybody in the kitchen could hear everybody in the living room. Somewhat peculiarly however, the first black alcoholics (like Jimmy Miller, Bill Hoover, and Brownie c. 1948-1950) were also made to sit in the kitchen instead of the living room.

After they had several house meetings in a city (such as South Bend or Elkhart) a new alcoholic was asked to choose one of these discussion meetings to attend each week, and was also asked to go to a large open speaker meeting held on one evening a week, where everybody (alcoholics and spouses) attended and sat together.

The house meetings weren't segregated sexually. From an early period, there were women alcoholics attending these AA meetings and sitting in the living room. Sometimes it was a husband-wife pair where both were alcoholics, sometimes it was a wife whose husband was also an alcoholic but refused to go to AA meetings, but often it was a single woman alcoholic.

This information is from oldtimers who had attended those meetings in the 1940's, plus tape recordings of other oldtimers (such as the secretary who sent out all the meeting notices in Elkhart, etc.) dsecribing what it was like when they first came in. They were all in agreement that this is the way it was done in this part of Indiana and Michigan (centering around South Bend and Elkhart). But that doesn't mean it was done the same way in New York or California or Texas during that period, or even in other parts of Indiana and Michigan.

See "The Factory Owner and the Convict" http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html
and "The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man" http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html

- - - -

From: Cecilia = cecearcher@juno.com

As I understand it from the book "Lois Remember" the wives were in the kitchen making and serving the coffee at the early AA meetings.

Cecilia

- - - -

From: aa061035@gmail.com

Al-Anon and Alateen Santa Barbara

http://www.alanonsantabarbara.info/More_About_Al-Anon/Fun_Facts_About_Al-Anon/A_Brief_History_of_Al-Anon.aspx

A Brief History of Al-Anon

Al-Anon is almost as old as Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Al-Anon was started by Lois W., wife of AA cofounder Bill W., and Anne B., a close friend of Lois'. In the formative years of AA, the wives and relatives of AA's realized that they too could improve their lives by applying the spiritual principles of AA.

While the AA's were attending their meetings, their loved ones often waited in their cars. Soon they started to come in from the cold and hold their own meetings to discuss their own common problems, while the AA's were at their meeting.

By 1948 a number of these family groups applied to the A.A. General Service Office to be listed in the A.A. Meeting Directory. Because of AA's singleness of purpose, these groups could not be included in the directory.

In 1951, Lois and Anne, created a Clearing House Committee to service 87 inquirers and to coordinate and serve them. Through this effort, 56 groups responded. They chose the name of their groups from the first syllables of "Alcoholics Anonymous" and they adopted the name Al-Anon Family Groups. They adopted the Twelve Steps of AA and later the Twelve Traditions, in the slightly modified form we know today.

Source: 2006-2009 Al-Anon/Alateen Service Manual

- - - -

From: maxbott@yahoo.com

I have the same problem. Depending on what one calls an old timer. They are now pretty much all gone with a few exceptions. And just because there are things in print, does not mean it's true. I remember printing things in my past that was far from true. I have been trying to develop relations with some of the older folks that can tie their recovery connections back to the old timers directly/personally and it's been helping. A few say it was always accepted that the wives was indeed allowed. That they was part of the problem and needed to be part of the solution. But then I have run into a couple older fellas who say otherwise. So, I think that this topic may be impossible to prove one way or the other.

Bill, Arago Oregon

 

 



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| 9794|9771|2014-02-06 11:22:17|brian koch|Re: Harry Brick. Is it Fred on page 39?|
Harry was an accountant, as his occupation is noted on his draft card, as found on ancestry dot com.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 5, 2014, at 8:23 PM, email@LaurenceHolbrook.com wrote:

From 'The Authors' edited by Fiona Dodd, 'Harry was probably an accountant. He is believe to be "Fred, a partner in a well known accounting firm" whose story is told on pages 39 through 43 of the Big Book.'


| 9795|9795|2014-02-08 10:57:07|jax760|"Peace of Mind"|

A question for Sally Brown,...was the above title the 1946 piece by Joshua Liebman?


And a question for the old-timers...........was Steinway Hall as quoted by Lois confused with Aeolian Hall? Lois Remembers "Steinway Hall", but Sally and the January  '45' Grapevine talks about Aeolian Hall (W42nd Street). No way they met at both so who "remembered" wrong?


All in the details.........


God Bless,


John B.

| 9796|9796|2014-02-11 10:53:50|Robert Stonebraker|Feb, 11, 1938 -- Clarence Snyder's DOS|

February 11, 1938.    This is the date that Clarence Snyder got ‘fixed’ by his sponsor, Dr. Bob (Actually God) at Akron City Hospital.  He was only 35 years old and considered perhaps ‘too young’ to make the program,   however, just after Valentines day he was visited by well dressed AAs on a daily basis.  When time to leave was near, he was approached by Dr. Bob to see if he was to continue with the drunks fellowship from the then-Oxford Group meetings.   The conversation went like this:

 

Dr. Bob:  “Young feller, do you believe in God?  Not a God, but God?”

Clarence:  “Well, what does that have to do with it?

DB:   “Young feller, this has everything to do with it.  Do you or do you not believe in God?”

Clarence: “Well, I guess I do.”

DB pointed his long finger and yelled:  “There’s no guessing about it.  Either you do or you don’t”

Clarence:  ”Yeah”   “I do believe in God”

DB:  “That’s fine.  Now we can get someplace.”  “Get down out of that bed” 

Clarence:  For what?”

DB:  You’re Gonna pray.”

Clarence:  “I don’t know anything about praying.”

DB:  “I don’t suppose that you do; but you get down there, and I will pray.   You can repeat it after me, and that will do for now.” 

 

Doc then took Clarence by the hand an “hauled” him out of that nice warm nest.  Clarence with his shorty hospital nightshirt and Dr. Bob with his bright Argyle socks . . .  it was a sight to behold!

 

Dr. Bob then prayed: “Jesus, this is Clarence Snyder.  He’s a drunk.  

Dr. Bob to Clarence: “Clarence!  This is Jesus.  Ask him to come into your life.  Ask Him to remove your drinking problem, and pray the He manage your life because you are unable to manage it yourself.”   

 

After they concluded Dr. Bob shook Clarence’s hand an said to him, “Young feller, you’re gonna be alright.”

 

Dr. Bob was right:  Clarence started the first AA meeting in Cleveland May 11, 1939, and it that soon grew to far surpass both Akron and NY with sober ‘rummies.’  Bill’s Wilson’s long time secretary, Nell Wing, claimed that Clarence might have been considered and AA Tri-founder if not for his antagonistic attitude toward Bill.  

 

Read Clarence’s biography in “HOW IT WORKED,” BY Mitchell K., or read the chapter “Sudden Growth in Cleveland,”   in “DR. BOB AND THE GOOD OLD TIMERS.”

 

Bob S.

 

PS—The excerpts are from, “HOW IT WORKED,” BY Mitchell K (pages 55-58)

 

 

 

 

 

| 9797|9791|2014-02-12 10:52:06|Janis Raley|Re: Old AA poster on what a dollar in the basket was worth|

We put them out every year.  I don’t remember AAWS or GSO doing it, but we have been publishing them since the 90’s.  The newest for 2014 is being printing right now.  If we can help just drop me a line.

Janis

 

Janis S. Raley

 

Executive Director

Dallas Intergroup Association

6162 E Mockingbird Lane, Suite 213

Dallas, TX 75214

www.aadallas.org

214-887-6699

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of CHRISTINA HURST
Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:11 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Old AA poster on what a dollar in the basket was worth

 

 

  I remember about 15-20 years ago General Service Office put out a poster that showed the cost of bread in 1935 to the cost today and the cost of a gallon of gas to the cost today. The point was to encourage more than one dollar being put into the 7th Tradition Basket since it has not changed much.

Does anyone have a picture of that poster I could get a copy of?

 

Thanks

Chris

| 9798|9768|2014-02-12 10:53:14|ljmesg|Re: First Protestant clergyman member of AA|
Where is the source that says Father Daugherty was the "First Protestant clergyman member of AA?" 

Is this an assumption or is there historical data to substantiate this?

Thank you,

Ben King


On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 7:27 PM, "kochbrian@hotmail.com" wrote:
 
I found out some information when i contacted the church in Rome, Georgia. The following came from the church secretary
 
Sam Daughtry was called in Sept. 1943, at a salary of $140/month.  Dr. Daughtry and his wife, Frances, were popular and respected and the church prospered under his ministry.  By February 1944, he had secured pledges of $4099 and paid off the mortgage on the church with enough left to buy a war bond to be used to reroof the church after the war.  A mortgage burning ceremony was held on Feb. 27, 1944. 
 
By 1946, the church was at last prospering: enough to raise the minister's salary to $3600/yr.  Dr. Daughtry was very active in AA's (that's how it is written in history so it might mean more than one chapter maybe?) and that organization was granted permission to use the church basement for meetings. 
 
The War Bond was used in 1947 to purchase an organ for the church.  Frances Daughtry was a fine organist and the choir began its tradition of excellent, vital participation in the worship service.  Dr. and Mrs. Daughtry gave a set of chimes to the church as memorials to their mothers.  The organ and chime were dedicated on Sunday, Dec. 28, with Dr. Robert Burns of  Peachtree Church, Atlanta, delivering the sermon. 
 
The Christian Evangelist carried an article in the Dec. 31, 1947 issue reporting that the church was prospering under Dr. Daughtry.  It is noted that the sanctuary had been painted, a new stove purchased, and the mortgage paid.  Dr. Daughtry resigned in 1949 to accept a position with a Presbyterian church effective November 20.
 
 
Further, i found Rev Daughtry's next calling to be at Sinking Spring Presbyterian Church, Abingdon VA. I am waiting on more information from them.....
 


| 9799|9799|2014-02-12 10:54:53|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|FW: Conference and Developments at the University of Chester|
You may already know about the upcoming conference but this message also includes the latest HPP newsletter as the third attachment.

Laurie A.




From: j.stoner@chester.ac.uk
To: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com
Subject: FW: Conference and Developments at the University of Chester
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 10:06:49 +0000






Hi Jenny & Laurie












Hope that you're keeping well.



























































As a supporter of the Higher Power Project, we thought that you�d be interested in details of our forthcoming conference and the formation of a new group at the University of Chester.

Conference/Workshop, 29th & 30th April 2014:-
"Recovery from Addiction: Bridging the Gap between Policy and Practice"

Please find attached an advance notice flier and details of the Conference & Workshop to be held at the University of Chester on 29th & 30th April, 2014.
We hope that you will be interested in attending the event yourself and would be grateful for any help that you can give us to promote the event through your networks.
Booking details are attached, if you have any queries please let me know or contact Tim Roberts on 07917-092757 or mailto:roberts.t@chester.ac.uk

CSARS Group

To date our work on recovery from addiction has been centred on the HPP research and associated knowledge transfer (see attached newsletter). However, our research interests and expertise cover other areas of recovery and new and exciting opportunities are arising. We are, for example, already developing and seeking funding for new research projects and engaged in training professionals and a Twelve Step Facilitation project.
The newly-formed CSARS Group (Chester Studies of Addiction, Recovery & Spirituality Group) will allow us to pursue these opportunities, often in partnership with co-workers from other institutions. If you would like to know more or have any suggestions on how we might work with you or your organisation then please contact me.

We hope to see you at the conference, if not before.

Best wishes,
John & Wendy

Prof John Stoner � Director, Projects (07967-095266)
Dr Wendy Dossett � Director, Research
CSARS Group
University of Chester



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9800|9800|2014-02-12 10:59:51|Chuck Parkhurst|Rockefeller dinner with invites and attendees|

Members

 

The link that was originally ported for this important event now produces an error message……anyone have a new link

 

In Service With Gratitude,

 

Chuck Parkhurst

 

  Note:   If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history, which includes my email address. It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world. Erasing the history also helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and prevents the spread of computer viruses.

 

 

| 9801|9795|2014-02-12 11:04:34|Sally Brown|Re: "Peace of Mind"|
In answer to both your Qs – Beats me, John. Years ago we gave all our MM  research resources, both printed and recorded, to the alcoholism archives at Brown Univ. And at this remove in time, neither Dave nor I remember our particular sources for a given question. However, Liebman was certainly the author of the book, “Peace of Mind.” Were the Grapevine archives any help in clarifying the authorship of the article?
 
Who wrote the article that mentioned Aeolian Hall? Is it possible the group may have met at one of the two halls, then shifted to the other?
 
Shalom -        Sally
 

Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv, BCC                                       coauthor with David R Brown

United Church of Christ                                                    A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann     
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain                                The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
Palo Alto VA Med Ctr, CA (Ret)                                      (Hazelden. Center City, MN. 2001.)

 

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310                                                         
Palo Alto, CA  94304
Phone:  650 325 5258

________________________________________________________________________________________________  

 

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 6:48 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Peace of Mind"
 
 

A question for Sally Brown,...was the above title the 1946 piece by Joshua Liebman?

 

And a question for the old-timers...........was Steinway Hall as quoted by Lois confused with Aeolian Hall? Lois Remembers "Steinway Hall", but Sally and the January  '45' Grapevine talks about Aeolian Hall (W42nd Street). No way they met at both so who "remembered" wrong?

 

All in the details.........

 

God Bless,

 

John B.

 
| 9802|9779|2014-02-12 11:06:10|Cindy Miller|Re: Searching for topics in AAHL messages in new Yahoo format|
DITTO!!!!!!


-cindy miller

On Jan 26, 2014, at 8:17 AM, ROGER WHEATLEY wrote:

If anyone has cracked the code on searching old posts easily, I would love to see a tutorial posted.

| 9803|9791|2014-02-12 13:00:41|Shakey Mike|Re: Old AA poster on what a dollar in the basket was worth|
In a past post, Cindy M. of Philadelphia asked the same question.
The poster was produced by an Intergroup I think in Atlanta. It was produced in the early 90�s
On the bottom right side it says,�This poster is unofficial. It has not been published by General Service.�
I remember a former office manager at SEPIA(SouthEastern Pa Intergroup Assn.) brought these back from an AA Office Managers convention
and they caused some controversy, With pictures of the items and a empty 7th tradition basket on the bottom ,

It reads�
AA is self supporting
through its own contributions�
Cola 1960 10cents� 1990 50 cents , coffee 1960 5 cents 1990 50 cents
cigarettes 1960 25 cents 1990 $2.00
Gasoline 1960 22 cents/gallon 1990 $1.10/gallon
A.A.Contributions 1960, 1970,1980,1990 all $1.00�
I skipped the costs of 1970 and 1980 from the above prices but the price of AA Contributions stays stagnant.

On the Bottom it reads�For those who can well afford it, would $2.00 be too much?
For those who cannot, the important
thing is to keep coming back"


There is a new updated poster, I think it said Baltimore Md. as where it was produced. I just saw it last week.
Unfortunately the buck at 7th tradition still exists but in a meeting I go to Shake and Bake an old-timer says
�I come to this meeting, It�s a two dollar meeting so I put two bucks in the basket� when he shares
I was told to always put a buck in for me and for the guy who can�t.
I hope there was no copyright violation.
YIS,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
CoChair 18th NAAAW -National AA Archives Convention-
outside Phila, PA in King of Prussia (near Valley Forge)

----------





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9804|9804|2014-02-12 15:05:42|Glenn Chesnut|Central Service Office representative|
From: VVPEACHY@aol.com

Anyone want to respond to this?

=====================================
Hello All ,

I would like to get a sense of how many office use the wording  Central Service Delegate (CSD) or  Central Service Representative (CSR).

Also does anyone know when the word delegate was first used in AA? I would be interested in learning that if anyone has some insight.

Thanks
Susan Cotton
Office Manager
R.I. Central Service
rics@rhodeisland-aa.org
401-438-8860
=====================================


| 9805|9800|2014-02-13 11:07:19|John French|Re: Rockefeller dinner with invites and attendees|
If you provide the actual web page URL, perhaps someone can retrieve it
at the WayBackMachine web page archive at
https://archive.org/web/

Then it is a matter of finding a new home for it.

John French
| 9806|9768|2014-02-14 10:38:49|Gary Neidhardt|Re: First Protestant clergyman member of AA|
Rev Sam Daughtry was at the start of the first sustained A.A. meeting in Atlanta, which dates from June 12, 1941 (Bill Wilson seems to credit Irving M. for founding A.A. in Atlanta in A.A. Comes of Age, p.25, but those meetings didn’t last and Bill's wording isn’t clear).   We have letters in the Georgia State Archives dated in  early April of 1941, immediately after the Jack Alexander article, written to New York asking for help for Rev. Sam written by his wife Frances. Ruth Hock did respond.  Rev. Sam's sobriety date was April 16, 1941.  Sam had stayed sober with the help of a Big Book borrowed by his loving wife, some previous reading of A.A. related pamphlets, and some sympathetic ministers that had defrocked him from the Presbyterian ministry back in 1933 for being a habitual drunk.  That A.A. sustained meeting in Atlanta was at the house of Steve M., who was a transfer from Washington D.C. and in the military at the time and a pigeon of John “Honey Fitz” Mayo (author of the Big Book Story Our Southern Friend).   There is a biography of Sam Daughtry available on Kindle from Amazon titled The Pulpit and the Bottle written in 1993 by his son Willard Daughtry and edited by Willard's daughter Anne from which these details can be verified.  (I cannot find any paper back or hardcover of this book for sale).
 
Rev. Sam started preaching again on Sunday, October 12, 1941 in a non-sectarian church in Atlanta called The Church of the Open Door.  Rev. Sam spoke to a packed house that included the Mayor of Atlanta.  By January of 1942, his sermons were being broadcast on a local radio station.  Quoting from The Pulpit and the Bottle: "With the slogan, 'You Can't Beat a Drunk When He's Sober,' the ex-drunks of the Atlanta chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous dedicated their new clubrooms on June 12th, 1942, the first anniversary of its founding.  Just one year before, four men held the first meeting in a basement in the Buckhead neighborhood, and now there were sixty active members."


Rev. Sam was ordained in the ministry of the Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church at the Peachtree Christian Church on November 7, 1942.  This gave Rev. Sam’s Church of the Open Door a denominational affiliation.  Many of its members entered the service and the church closed in March of 1943.  Through the efforts of Rev. Sam’s wife, who wrote Norman Vincent Peale on behalf of her husband without his knowledge, Norman Vincent Peale helped Rev. Sam become the minister of the First Christian Church of Rome, Georgia on October 1, 1943.

I cannot claim that Reverend Sam Daughtry was the first Protestant Minister in A.A.  I can, however, assert when Dr. Sam did get sober and document this: though he lost his ministry in 1933 due to alcoholism, he was preaching again by 1941 and was affiliated with a Protestant Denomination by 1942.  I'll turn the rest of the subject over to the very capable members of the A.A. History Lovers to determine if the assertion of Reverend Sam being the first Protestant minister sober in A. A. is true.  I have provided firm dates that should be helpful in making any determination along those lines.
 
Gary Neidhardt


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 1:53 PM, ljmesg wrote:
 
Where is the source that says Father Daugherty was the "First Protestant clergyman member of AA?" 

Is this an assumption or is there historical data to substantiate this?

Thank you,

Ben King


On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 7:27 PM, "kochbrian@hotmail.com" wrote:
 
I found out some information when i contacted the church in Rome, Georgia. The following came from the church secretary
 
Sam Daughtry was called in Sept. 1943, at a salary of $140/month.  Dr. Daughtry and his wife, Frances, were popular and respected and the church prospered under his ministry.  By February 1944, he had secured pledges of $4099 and paid off the mortgage on the church with enough left to buy a war bond to be used to reroof the church after the war.  A mortgage burning ceremony was held on Feb. 27, 1944. 
 
By 1946, the church was at last prospering: enough to raise the minister's salary to $3600/yr.  Dr. Daughtry was very active in AA's (that's how it is written in history so it might mean more than one chapter maybe?) and that organization was granted permission to use the church basement for meetings. 
 
The War Bond was used in 1947 to purchase an organ for the church.  Frances Daughtry was a fine organist and the choir began its tradition of excellent, vital participation in the worship service.  Dr. and Mrs. Daughtry gave a set of chimes to the church as memorials to their mothers.  The organ and chime were dedicated on Sunday, Dec. 28, with Dr. Robert Burns of  Peachtree Church, Atlanta, delivering the sermon. 
 
The Christian Evangelist carried an article in the Dec. 31, 1947 issue reporting that the church was prospering under Dr. Daughtry.  It is noted that the sanctuary had been painted, a new stove purchased, and the mortgage paid.  Dr. Daughtry resigned in 1949 to accept a position with a Presbyterian church effective November 20.
 
 
Further, i found Rev Daughtry's next calling to be at Sinking Spring Presbyterian Church, Abingdon VA. I am waiting on more information from them.....
 




| 9807|9779|2014-02-14 10:47:20|tomper87|Re: Searching for topics in AAHL messages in new Yahoo format|
Some of the problems with searching depend on the browser you use.
Firefox works OK.  Microsoft browser be sure to turn OFF "compatibility view"
under the Tools tab.
| 9808|9768|2014-02-15 10:27:27|Shakey Mike|Re: First Protestant clergyman member of AA|
Who is  John “honey Fitz” Mayo ?
Our Southern Friend and Jimmy B’s childhood and lifelong friend was John Henry Fitzhugh M. known as Fitz to AA and as Hugh to his family.
See my earlier posts on him.
I have never heard of “honey Fitz” Please document this for us.
I know that in a previous posting ,I commented on JPL or "John of Philadelphia”. He got  sober with Dr Dudley Saul before AA arrived in Philadelphia via James McCaleb B.
When AA and Jimmy B arrived in 1940 He was told by Dr Saul to try it. John’s father was pastor of his Church and John was a ruling elder;" the highest office layman can hold in our
Presbyterian system.”  This was early 1940.John went on to become a more popular circuit speaker than Bill W. He met Bill at the Philly Meetings because Bill stopped there often. In 1942 He moved to Wash.DC and made meetings regularly. He said he did not see Bill W. at Washington D.C.meetings.  John was  commissioned in the Naval Reserve. He then spent most of his time in Hawaii and had no contact with AA unless he returned to Philly on leave. On one of those occasions he spoke at the Philadelphia Banquet along with Marty M. He went to work (after the war) at the St. Luke’s and Childrens' Medical Center, as Business Manager and lay therapist, with Dr. Saul. They had a 17 bed  in patient facility for men. Women were  treated in the hospital.This evolved into the Saul Clinic,which was written about in the AA Grapevine. From 1957 to 1961 He was a  Trustee of General Service Board serving on the Policy Committee being Chair for three of those year's. John worked with the Presbyterian Church as well as the Episcopal Church developing programs on alcoholism. He  serve  on the pension board of the Presbyterian Church, and translated to french an article on the twelve Steps of AA. He also served as Director of the NCOA. He was before coming to AA a newspaper reporter.
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Co Chair 18th NAAAW outside Phila, PA.
See AANationalarchivesworkshop.com for more info



On Feb 13, 2014, at 8:38 PM, Gary Neidhardt <morningmael@yahoo.com> wrote:


Rev Sam Daughtry was at the start of the first sustained A.A. meeting in Atlanta, which dates from June 12, 1941 (Bill Wilson seems to credit Irving M. for founding A.A. in Atlanta in A.A. Comes of Age, p.25, but those meetings didn’t last and Bill's wording isn’t clear).   We have letters in the Georgia State Archives dated in  early April of 1941, immediately after the Jack Alexander article, written to New York asking for help for Rev. Sam written by his wife Frances. Ruth Hock did respond.  Rev. Sam's sobriety date was April 16, 1941.  Sam had stayed sober with the help of a Big Book borrowed by his loving wife, some previous reading of A.A. related pamphlets, and some sympathetic ministers that had defrocked him from the Presbyterian ministry back in 1933 for being a habitual drunk.  That A.A. sustained meeting in Atlanta was at the house of Steve M., who was a transfer from Washington D.C. and in the military at the time and a pigeon of John “Honey Fitz” Mayo (author of the Big Book Story Our Southern Friend).   There is a biography of Sam Daughtry available on Kindle from Amazon titled The Pulpit and the Bottle written in 1993 by his son Willard Daughtry and edited by Willard's daughter Anne from which these details can be verified.  (I cannot find any paper back or hardcover of this book for sale).
 
Rev. Sam started preaching again on Sunday, October 12, 1941 in a non-sectarian church in Atlanta called The Church of the Open Door.  Rev. Sam spoke to a packed house that included the Mayor of Atlanta.  By January of 1942, his sermons were being broadcast on a local radio station.  Quoting from The Pulpit and the Bottle: "With the slogan, 'You Can't Beat a Drunk When He's Sober,' the ex-drunks of the Atlanta chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous dedicated their new clubrooms on June 12th, 1942, the first anniversary of its founding.  Just one year before, four men held the first meeting in a basement in the Buckhead neighborhood, and now there were sixty active members."


Rev. Sam was ordained in the ministry of the Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church at the Peachtree Christian Church on November 7, 1942.  This gave Rev. Sam’s Church of the Open Door a denominational affiliation.  Many of its members entered the service and the church closed in March of 1943.  Through the efforts of Rev. Sam’s wife, who wrote Norman Vincent Peale on behalf of her husband without his knowledge, Norman Vincent Peale helped Rev. Sam become the minister of the First Christian Church of Rome, Georgia on October 1, 1943.

I cannot claim that Reverend Sam Daughtry was the first Protestant Minister in A.A.  I can, however, assert when Dr. Sam did get sober and document this: though he lost his ministry in 1933 due to alcoholism, he was preaching again by 1941 and was affiliated with a Protestant Denomination by 1942.  I'll turn the rest of the subject over to the very capable members of the A.A. History Lovers to determine if the assertion of Reverend Sam being the first Protestant minister sober in A. A. is true.  I have provided firm dates that should be helpful in making any determination along those lines.
 
Gary Neidhardt


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 1:53 PM, ljmesg <ljmesg@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Where is the source that says Father Daugherty was the "First Protestant clergyman member of AA?" 

Is this an assumption or is there historical data to substantiate this?

Thank you,

Ben King


On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 7:27 PM, "kochbrian@hotmail.com" <kochbrian@hotmail.com> wrote:
 
I found out some information when i contacted the church in Rome, Georgia. The following came from the church secretary
 
Sam Daughtry was called in Sept. 1943, at a salary of $140/month.  Dr. Daughtry and his wife, Frances, were popular and respected and the church prospered under his ministry.  By February 1944, he had secured pledges of $4099 and paid off the mortgage on the church with enough left to buy a war bond to be used to reroof the church after the war.  A mortgage burning ceremony was held on Feb. 27, 1944. 
 
By 1946, the church was at last prospering: enough to raise the minister's salary to $3600/yr.  Dr. Daughtry was very active in AA's (that's how it is written in history so it might mean more than one chapter maybe?) and that organization was granted permission to use the church basement for meetings. 
 
The War Bond was used in 1947 to purchase an organ for the church.  Frances Daughtry was a fine organist and the choir began its tradition of excellent, vital participation in the worship service.  Dr. and Mrs. Daughtry gave a set of chimes to the church as memorials to their mothers.  The organ and chime were dedicated on Sunday, Dec. 28, with Dr. Robert Burns of  Peachtree Church, Atlanta, delivering the sermon. 
 
The Christian Evangelist carried an article in the Dec. 31, 1947 issue reporting that the church was prospering under Dr. Daughtry.  It is noted that the sanctuary had been painted, a new stove purchased, and the mortgage paid.  Dr. Daughtry resigned in 1949 to accept a position with a Presbyterian church effective November 20.
 
 
Further, i found Rev Daughtry's next calling to be at Sinking Spring Presbyterian Church, Abingdon VA. I am waiting on more information from them.....
 






| 9809|9768|2014-02-15 10:28:31|brian koch|Re: First Protestant clergyman member of AA|
As found on pgs 25-26, when AA comes of age, "shortly after the beginning of AA in Atlanta, that shaky group was sparked by the appearance of Sam, a high powered Yankee preacher, temporarily minus frock and salary. Sam spoke with great effect from both the pulpit and AA platform. He created a sort of "Chautauqua" brand of AA which was mildly deprecated by some members but cheered by others. Sam has since passed away, but his work is remembered gratefully." 
Again, can it be 100% proven he was the first?  Not likely. It was just an assertion made by father pfau after all.  However, with the facts that have been gathered, it is as reasonable as saying father pfau was the first catholic priest.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2014, at 1:40 PM, "Gary Neidhardt" <morningmael@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Rev Sam Daughtry was at the start of the first sustained A.A. meeting in Atlanta, which dates from June 12, 1941 (Bill Wilson seems to credit Irving M. for founding A.A. in Atlanta in A.A. Comes of Age, p.25, but those meetings didn’t last and Bill's wording isn’t clear).   We have letters in the Georgia State Archives dated in  early April of 1941, immediately after the Jack Alexander article, written to New York asking for help for Rev. Sam written by his wife Frances. Ruth Hock did respond.  Rev. Sam's sobriety date was April 16, 1941.  Sam had stayed sober with the help of a Big Book borrowed by his loving wife, some previous reading of A.A. related pamphlets, and some sympathetic ministers that had defrocked him from the Presbyterian ministry back in 1933 for being a habitual drunk.  That A.A. sustained meeting in Atlanta was at the house of Steve M., who was a transfer from Washington D.C. and in the military at the time and a pigeon of John “Honey Fitz” Mayo (author of the Big Book Story Our Southern Friend).   There is a biography of Sam Daughtry available on Kindle from Amazon titled The Pulpit and the Bottle written in 1993 by his son Willard Daughtry and edited by Willard's daughter Anne from which these details can be verified.  (I cannot find any paper back or hardcover of this book for sale).
 
Rev. Sam started preaching again on Sunday, October 12, 1941 in a non-sectarian church in Atlanta called The Church of the Open Door.  Rev. Sam spoke to a packed house that included the Mayor of Atlanta.  By January of 1942, his sermons were being broadcast on a local radio station.  Quoting from The Pulpit and the Bottle: "With the slogan, 'You Can't Beat a Drunk When He's Sober,' the ex-drunks of the Atlanta chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous dedicated their new clubrooms on June 12th, 1942, the first anniversary of its founding.  Just one year before, four men held the first meeting in a basement in the Buckhead neighborhood, and now there were sixty active members."


Rev. Sam was ordained in the ministry of the Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church at the Peachtree Christian Church on November 7, 1942.  This gave Rev. Sam’s Church of the Open Door a denominational affiliation.  Many of its members entered the service and the church closed in March of 1943.  Through the efforts of Rev. Sam’s wife, who wrote Norman Vincent Peale on behalf of her husband without his knowledge, Norman Vincent Peale helped Rev. Sam become the minister of the First Christian Church of Rome, Georgia on October 1, 1943.

I cannot claim that Reverend Sam Daughtry was the first Protestant Minister in A.A.  I can, however, assert when Dr. Sam did get sober and document this: though he lost his ministry in 1933 due to alcoholism, he was preaching again by 1941 and was affiliated with a Protestant Denomination by 1942.  I'll turn the rest of the subject over to the very capable members of the A.A. History Lovers to determine if the assertion of Reverend Sam being the first Protestant minister sober in A. A. is true.  I have provided firm dates that should be helpful in making any determination along those lines.
 
Gary Neidhardt


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 1:53 PM, ljmesg <ljmesg@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Where is the source that says Father Daugherty was the "First Protestant clergyman member of AA?" 

Is this an assumption or is there historical data to substantiate this?

Thank you,

Ben King


On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 7:27 PM, "kochbrian@hotmail.com" <kochbrian@hotmail.com> wrote:
 
I found out some information when i contacted the church in Rome, Georgia. The following came from the church secretary
 
Sam Daughtry was called in Sept. 1943, at a salary of $140/month.  Dr. Daughtry and his wife, Frances, were popular and respected and the church prospered under his ministry.  By February 1944, he had secured pledges of $4099 and paid off the mortgage on the church with enough left to buy a war bond to be used to reroof the church after the war.  A mortgage burning ceremony was held on Feb. 27, 1944. 
 
By 1946, the church was at last prospering: enough to raise the minister's salary to $3600/yr.  Dr. Daughtry was very active in AA's (that's how it is written in history so it might mean more than one chapter maybe?) and that organization was granted permission to use the church basement for meetings. 
 
The War Bond was used in 1947 to purchase an organ for the church.  Frances Daughtry was a fine organist and the choir began its tradition of excellent, vital participation in the worship service.  Dr. and Mrs. Daughtry gave a set of chimes to the church as memorials to their mothers.  The organ and chime were dedicated on Sunday, Dec. 28, with Dr. Robert Burns of  Peachtree Church, Atlanta, delivering the sermon. 
 
The Christian Evangelist carried an article in the Dec. 31, 1947 issue reporting that the church was prospering under Dr. Daughtry.  It is noted that the sanctuary had been painted, a new stove purchased, and the mortgage paid.  Dr. Daughtry resigned in 1949 to accept a position with a Presbyterian church effective November 20.
 
 
Further, i found Rev Daughtry's next calling to be at Sinking Spring Presbyterian Church, Abingdon VA. I am waiting on more information from them.....
 




| 9810|9810|2014-02-16 12:02:27|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] First Protestant clergyman member of AA|
The Banquet Speech (Johnny L) given on the same program with Marty (and a Judge from the Midwest) was the 20th Anniversary of Philadelphia Intergroup in 1961; he spoke last as the longest sober. His talk was on the Twelve Steps and he quoted the Twelfth as “Having had a spiritual experience...” He did return to Philadelphia a couple of times during the War, and helped restore both Philadelphia and Harrisburg AA after the War. The Presbyterian Church Award for Social Service is named for him. He died in 1983 aged 80 out in the Southwest. His sobriety date was in the fall 1938, I’ve forgotten exactly when.  His AA colleague Yev G., one of the founders of AA in the Lehigh Valley of PA circa 1945, was also his colleague in drawing up the Episcopalian program in alcoholism.
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: Shakey Mike
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎February‎ ‎15‎, ‎2014 ‎1‎:‎27‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


Who is  John “honey Fitz” Mayo ?
Our Southern Friend and Jimmy B’s childhood and lifelong friend was John Henry Fitzhugh M. known as Fitz to AA and as Hugh to his family.
See my earlier posts on him.
I have never heard of “honey Fitz” Please document this for us.
I know that in a previous posting ,I commented on JPL or "John of Philadelphia”. He got  sober with Dr Dudley Saul before AA arrived in Philadelphia via James McCaleb B.
When AA and Jimmy B arrived in 1940 He was told by Dr Saul to try it. John’s father was pastor of his Church and John was a ruling elder;" the highest office layman can hold in our
Presbyterian system.”  This was early 1940.John went on to become a more popular circuit speaker than Bill W. He met Bill at the Philly Meetings because Bill stopped there often. In 1942 He moved to Wash.DC and made meetings regularly. He said he did not see Bill W. at Washington D.C.meetings.  John was  commissioned in the Naval Reserve. He then spent most of his time in Hawaii and had no contact with AA unless he returned to Philly on leave. On one of those occasions he spoke at the Philadelphia Banquet along with Marty M. He went to work (after the war) at the St. Luke’s and Childrens' Medical Center, as Business Manager and lay therapist, with Dr. Saul. They had a 17 bed  in patient facility for men. Women were  treated in the hospital.This evolved into the Saul Clinic,which was written about in the AA Grapevine. From 1957 to 1961 He was a  Trustee of General Service Board serving on the Policy Committee being Chair for three of those year's. John worked with the Presbyterian Church as well as the Episcopal Church developing programs on alcoholism. He  serve  on the pension board of the Presbyterian Church, and translated to french an article on the twelve Steps of AA. He also served as Director of the NCOA. He was before coming to AA a newspaper reporter.
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Co Chair 18th NAAAW outside Phila, PA.
See AANationalarchivesworkshop.com for more info



On Feb 13, 2014, at 8:38 PM, Gary Neidhardt <morningmael@yahoo.com> wrote:


Rev Sam Daughtry was at the start of the first sustained A.A. meeting in Atlanta, which dates from June 12, 1941 (Bill Wilson seems to credit Irving M. for founding A.A. in Atlanta in A.A. Comes of Age, p.25, but those meetings didn’t last and Bill's wording isn’t clear).   We have letters in the Georgia State Archives dated in  early April of 1941, immediately after the Jack Alexander article, written to New York asking for help for Rev. Sam written by his wife Frances. Ruth Hock did respond.  Rev. Sam's sobriety date was April 16, 1941.  Sam had stayed sober with the help of a Big Book borrowed by his loving wife, some previous reading of A.A. related pamphlets, and some sympathetic ministers that had defrocked him from the Presbyterian ministry back in 1933 for being a habitual drunk.  That A.A. sustained meeting in Atlanta was at the house of Steve M., who was a transfer from Washington D.C. and in the military at the time and a pigeon of John “Honey Fitz” Mayo (author of the Big Book Story Our Southern Friend).   There is a biography of Sam Daughtry available on Kindle from Amazon titled The Pulpit and the Bottle written in 1993 by his son Willard Daughtry and edited by Willard's daughter Anne from which these details can be verified.  (I cannot find any paper back or hardcover of this book for sale).
 
Rev. Sam started preaching again on Sunday, October 12, 1941 in a non-sectarian church in Atlanta called The Church of the Open Door.  Rev. Sam spoke to a packed house that included the Mayor of Atlanta.  By January of 1942, his sermons were being broadcast on a local radio station.  Quoting from The Pulpit and the Bottle: "With the slogan, 'You Can't Beat a Drunk When He's Sober,' the ex-drunks of the Atlanta chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous dedicated their new clubrooms on June 12th, 1942, the first anniversary of its founding.  Just one year before, four men held the first meeting in a basement in the Buckhead neighborhood, and now there were sixty active members."


Rev. Sam was ordained in the ministry of the Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church at the Peachtree Christian Church on November 7, 1942.  This gave Rev. Sam’s Church of the Open Door a denominational affiliation.  Many of its members entered the service and the church closed in March of 1943.  Through the efforts of Rev. Sam’s wife, who wrote Norman Vincent Peale on behalf of her husband without his knowledge, Norman Vincent Peale helped Rev. Sam become the minister of the First Christian Church of Rome, Georgia on October 1, 1943.

I cannot claim that Reverend Sam Daughtry was the first Protestant Minister in A.A.  I can, however, assert when Dr. Sam did get sober and document this: though he lost his ministry in 1933 due to alcoholism, he was preaching again by 1941 and was affiliated with a Protestant Denomination by 1942.  I'll turn the rest of the subject over to the very capable members of the A.A. History Lovers to determine if the assertion of Reverend Sam being the first Protestant minister sober in A. A. is true.  I have provided firm dates that should be helpful in making any determination along those lines.
 
Gary Neidhardt


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 1:53 PM, ljmesg <ljmesg@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Where is the source that says Father Daugherty was the "First Protestant clergyman member of AA?" 

Is this an assumption or is there historical data to substantiate this?

Thank you,

Ben King


On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 7:27 PM, "kochbrian@hotmail.com" <kochbrian@hotmail.com> wrote:
 
I found out some information when i contacted the church in Rome, Georgia. The following came from the church secretary
 
Sam Daughtry was called in Sept. 1943, at a salary of $140/month.  Dr. Daughtry and his wife, Frances, were popular and respected and the church prospered under his ministry.  By February 1944, he had secured pledges of $4099 and paid off the mortgage on the church with enough left to buy a war bond to be used to reroof the church after the war.  A mortgage burning ceremony was held on Feb. 27, 1944. 
 
By 1946, the church was at last prospering: enough to raise the minister's salary to $3600/yr.  Dr. Daughtry was very active in AA's (that's how it is written in history so it might mean more than one chapter maybe?) and that organization was granted permission to use the church basement for meetings. 
 
The War Bond was used in 1947 to purchase an organ for the church.  Frances Daughtry was a fine organist and the choir began its tradition of excellent, vital participation in the worship service.  Dr. and Mrs. Daughtry gave a set of chimes to the church as memorials to their mothers.  The organ and chime were dedicated on Sunday, Dec. 28, with Dr. Robert Burns of  Peachtree Church, Atlanta, delivering the sermon. 
 
The Christian Evangelist carried an article in the Dec. 31, 1947 issue reporting that the church was prospering under Dr. Daughtry.  It is noted that the sanctuary had been painted, a new stove purchased, and the mortgage paid.  Dr. Daughtry resigned in 1949 to accept a position with a Presbyterian church effective November 20.
 
 
Further, i found Rev Daughtry's next calling to be at Sinking Spring Presbyterian Church, Abingdon VA. I am waiting on more information from them.....
 
 


 
 



 



| 9811|9811|2014-02-16 12:02:57|Norm The Tinman|Dr Bob Letters|
Where can I find letters from Dr Bob to Bill--anyone please--  Norm Langille
| 9812|9804|2014-02-16 12:18:07|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Central Service Office representative|

From: rick tompkins

This is corrected by struck out text---I can’t be sure if the original Chicago Group had 10 Districts or decided 10 Groups per District. Most of the rest can be corroborated by Don Bennitt, but the question was all about  the word “Delegate” use.
 
_________________________________________________________
 
In early AA Service, the first use of perhaps the use of the word delegate, and its representative  focus, remains in effect through today in Chicago.
The Chicago Group set up its first Central Office in May 1941, and the small  number of ex-drunk newspaper people began to see that a bit of organization would help to carry the message of AA’s recovery. The city was mapped out into Districts, and beginning with 10 Groups in a District. Of course, the number of Groups increased rapidly and more Districts followed. There are almost 16 Districts today for an estimated 3,000 Groups and for many years (going back over 60 years), the idea of a District Delegate to represent a number of Groups took hold. The Central Office (the Metropolitan Rotating Committee) in the 1940s to the 1950s ‘guided’ the Chicago Group service meetings and each Delegate represented 13 Groups.
Sound like the General Service Conference to a certain degree? The GSC was modeled after the trial runs of Group representation and Service levels in Chicago AA---Bill W. visited here in 1948 specifically to observe and may have brought some thoughts on the development of the GSC, too, but he found the District Delegate idea was working well in Chicago.  
As far as I know, The District Delegates still represent 13 Groups. Today’s Chicago Area Service Office (GSC Delegate Area 19) keeps up the roster of GSRs and service volunteers while the Area welcomes District Delegates with a voice and vote. And like the whole Fellowship, every service member’s vote carries the same weight and importance. And like the real world, our Fellowship has leaders to help the Service mechanism work.
 
Hope this helps your perspective answer your question, Susan;, however no one here in Group service is called a Central Service Rep. but Chicago Area  19 Service accepts District Delegates.
There’s a bit of overall history in the pamphlet “The AA Group—Where It All Begins’ and it exhibits the resulting Area and Central Office/Intergroup Office structures.
Yours in fellowship,
Rick, Illinois
past Area 20 Historian

=====================================
Hello All ,
I would like to get a sense of how many office use the wording  Central Service Delegate (CSD) or  Central Service Representative (CSR).
Also does anyone know when the word delegate was first used in AA? I would be interested in learning that if anyone has some insight.
Thanks
Susan Cotton
Office Manager
R.I. Central Service
rics@rhodeisland-aa.org
401-438-8860
=====================================


| 9813|9804|2014-02-16 22:17:24|cpknapp|Re: Central Service Office representative|

Hello,

Central Offices in Southern California are about 50/50 with the use of the terms Central Service Representative  and Intergroup Representative.  The Los Angeles Central Office was founded in 1944.  Sometime, and I don’t have an exact date, they came up with the following plan.  I do know that they were using the term Delegate prior to the election of the 1st Delegate to the General Service Conference that was held in March 1951

The Los Angeles geographic area, serviced by the LA Central Office, is divided into “zones.” A.A. Groups within each zone elect a Central Service Representative (CSR)  All of the CSR within their zone meet once a month at a central location in their zone. The CSR within their zone elect a Delegate who is that zone’s representative at the monthly Central Service Committee meeting.  Concerns of the Groups are channeled through the Group’s  CSR then to the Zone Delegate then to the Central Service Committee. In turn news is passed from the Central Service Committee to the Zone Delegate to the CSR then back to the Groups.  Today there are 14 zones and they still use this system.

If I can get someone at the LA Central Office to return my cal I might be able to narrow down the date, but it’s safe to say sometime between 1944 and 1951 is when LA area was using the term Delegate.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin

| 9814|9811|2014-02-16 22:30:56|rick tompkins|Re: Dr Bob Letters|

Dr. Bob never wrote long letters, but any set of complete correspondence can be viewed at the AA Archives in the General Service Office.

You can view them only, with a specific, written intent and subsequent approval from the Archivist, Michelle Mirza.

Rick, Illinois

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm The Tinman
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 6:00 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

 

 

Where can I find letters from Dr Bob to Bill--anyone please--  Norm Langille

| 9815|9677|2014-02-17 10:59:00|kochbrian2249|Re: Question on BB Manuscript editing by Tom Uzzell|
Some insight on Tom Uzzell from his Granddaughter. It gives us more of a look into the man.  She is still scouring papers to see if he has anything in his personal correspondence regarding  his time spent with our Big Book.  All this because i was trying to find out where he was buried (probably cremated and scattered, but not 100% confirmed at this point)
"He was an avid photographer and won many national photograph contests. His camera was his constant companion and his family his favorite subjects. He was an interesting man and very few individuals can compare to him for a number of reasons. He rode a motorcycle, an imported German cycle. It was quiet and not like the American cycles we are accustomed to today. He competed in 3 different Olympics in 3 different categories (gymnastics, archery, and swimming), plus in his later years he played an incredible game of tennis. He served as an ambassador to Russia and claimed he taught the Russians how to swim the American Crawl. He made his living as a literary critic and his text books were still in use when I was in college. "The Narrative Technique" being one in particular that was used. To read it today is like having someone speak from the grave.  It has his personality."




---In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote:

What strikes me as odd is there is no mention of Uzzell in AA Comes of Age.
I have a digital copy of a January 5, 1939 letter from Hank P to Bill
regarding Uzzell - here's the text (edited and condensed):

"Dear Bill

I [Hank] am rushing off to you excerpts from a letter just received from Mr
Thomas H Uzzell ... In the publishing and literary world, I know there is no
one so well established and looked up to as Mr Uzzell. I have gone into
considerable length in regard to this because the following portion of his
letter has made me so enthusiastic.

He [Uzzell] says: 'I spent last evening with the manuscript. I knew, of
course, what the document was, but on reading additional chapters and
surveying the job as a whole, I found myself deeply moved, at times full of
amazement, almost incredulity, and during most of the reading I was
extremely sympathetic. My feeling at the moment is that you should
certainly hold on to the production and distribution of this volume, if you
can, for she ought to go far, wide and handsome, and net those concerned a
neat profit. You have here an extremely urgent problem, you have a
successful defiance of medicine, you have a religious story, you have a
deeply human story, and, lastly, you have a whole flock of happy endings, my
God! I don't know what else you could want for a good book. I believe in
it most emphatically.'

He further says, 'The whole book needs the final shaping of a professional
hand.' And then goes on at considerable length into mechanical details with
which I will not bother you. But it is interesting that he ends his letter
as follows: 'I understand better now the enthusiasm you revealed in your
talks with me about this work. I thought you were exaggerating somewhat but
now I have joined the choir invisible.'

If I [Hank] were you [Bill], I would be intensely proud of this opinion."
=======================

Uzzell went on to edit the manuscript during January to around mid-February
1939. The prepublication manuscript, resulting from his editing, consisted
of 166 pages (83 sheets). 400 copies were sent out for review. Hank P used a
copy to mark-up final editing changes to take to Cornwall Press. Neither the
review or mark-up copies contained all the stories that were to be
published. They both had 20 out of the 29 planned stories and one of them
was "Ace Full Seven Eleven" which was withdrawn." The manuscript page
margins were quite narrow (around 1/2 inch) on 3 edges. Consequently, a
manuscript page contained much more text and, on average, would probably
yield 2+ Big Book pages.

Claims that Uzzell pared the manuscript from 800/600 pages down to 400
pages, now seem to me as 800/600 apples being pared down to 400 oranges.
It's a certainty that Uzzell reduced the number of manuscript pages
initially given him, but the 400 number is the page count of the published
1st edition Big Book not the manuscript.

Given Mel B's role in Pass It On, perhaps he can enlighten us on the source
of the citation.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charley Bill
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:05 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Question on BB Manuscript editing by Tom
Uzzell

Robert, that is a very good question. It has me stumped because I cannot
find mention of Uzzell on page 204 of Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers nor is
he listed in the name index. I am curious, what edition are you using? Mine
is first edition, copyright 1980, 12th printing, 1995. I may need to update!
_____________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR, GLENN C:

I think Bob meant to say page 204 of PASS IT ON, the biography of Bill
Wilson. That's where you'll find the reference to Tom Uzzell.
_____________________________________

Robert Stonebraker wrote in Message 9677
http://health.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/9677

> I would like to ask at what point of the Big Book Manuscript writing did
Tom Uzzell cut the Big Book Manuscript from 800 to 400 pages (Page 204, Dr.
Bob and the Good Old Timers)?




------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links
| 9816|9779|2014-02-17 10:59:31|kochbrian2249|Re: Searching for topics in AAHL messages in new Yahoo format|
just to toss in my two cents, switching to Mozilla opened up my ability to search the group for topics etc. 
| 9817|9811|2014-02-17 11:00:03|Shakey Mike|Re: Dr Bob Letters|
The correct procedure , I believe, is a written application to review the letters. GSO Archives does not copy letters anymore.You get to review them and copy them by hand. It’s a long process. Your request letter to see the archival material is reviewed by the Trustees of the Archives Committee if GSO on a quarterly basis . You will then be notified.I am not sure that Michelle votes in this process but I will forward this to her and await her reply. also there may be Dr.Bob letters at Brown. Jared L would know about that.
YIS,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
CoChair 18th NAAAW -Oct 2014
www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com




On Feb 16, 2014, at 4:24 PM, rick tompkins <richardwtompkins@gmail.com> wrote:


Dr. Bob never wrote long letters, but any set of complete correspondence can be viewed at the AA Archives in the General Service Office.

You can view them only, with a specific, written intent and subsequent approval from the Archivist, Michelle Mirza.

Rick, Illinois

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm The Tinman
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 6:00 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

 

 

Where can I find letters from Dr Bob to Bill--anyone please--  Norm Langille



| 9818|9677|2014-02-27 11:00:00|Arthur|Re: Question on BB Manuscript editing by Tom Uzzell|

Brian

 

Please see if you can get a photograph - I’ve been scouring the net for quite some time and can’t find anything

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kochbrian@hotmail.com
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 6:44 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Question on BB Manuscript editing by Tom Uzzell

 

 

Some insight on Tom Uzzell from his Granddaughter. It gives us more of a look into the man.  She is still scouring papers to see if he has anything in his personal correspondence regarding  his time spent with our Big Book.  All this because i was trying to find out where he was buried (probably cremated and scattered, but not 100% confirmed at this point)
"He was an avid photographer and won many national photograph contests. His camera was his constant companion and his family his favorite subjects. He was an interesting man and very few individuals can compare to him for a number of reasons. He rode a motorcycle, an imported German cycle. It was quiet and not like the American cycles we are accustomed to today. He competed in 3 different Olympics in 3 different categories (gymnastics, archery, and swimming), plus in his later years he played an incredible game of tennis. He served as an ambassador to Russia and claimed he taught the Russians how to swim the American Crawl. He made his living as a literary critic and his text books were still in use when I was in college. "The Narrative Technique" being one in particular that was used. To read it today is like having someone speak from the grave.  It has his personality."



---In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, <arthur.s@...> wrote:

What strikes me as odd is there is no mention of Uzzell in AA Comes of Age.
I have a digital copy of a January 5, 1939 letter from Hank P to Bill
regarding Uzzell - here's the text (edited and condensed):

"Dear Bill

I [Hank] am rushing off to you excerpts from a letter just received from Mr
Thomas H Uzzell ... In the publishing and literary world, I know there is no
one so well established and looked up to as Mr Uzzell. I have gone into
considerable length in regard to this because the following portion of his
letter has made me so enthusiastic.

He [Uzzell] says: 'I spent last evening with the manuscript. I knew, of
course, what the document was, but on reading additional chapters and
surveying the job as a whole, I found myself deeply moved, at times full of
amazement, almost incredulity, and during most of the reading I was
extremely sympathetic. My feeling at the moment is that you should
certainly hold on to the production and distribution of this volume, if you
can, for she ought to go far, wide and handsome, and net those concerned a
neat profit. You have here an extremely urgent problem, you have a
successful defiance of medicine, you have a religious story, you have a
deeply human story, and, lastly, you have a whole flock of happy endings, my
God! I don't know what else you could want for a good book. I believe in
it most emphatically.'

He further says, 'The whole book needs the final shaping of a professional
hand.' And then goes on at considerable length into mechanical details with
which I will not bother you. But it is interesting that he ends his letter
as follows: 'I understand better now the enthusiasm you revealed in your
talks with me about this work. I thought you were exaggerating somewhat but
now I have joined the choir invisible.'

If I [Hank] were you [Bill], I would be intensely proud of this opinion."
=======================

Uzzell went on to edit the manuscript during January to around mid-February
1939. The prepublication manuscript, resulting from his editing, consisted
of 166 pages (83 sheets). 400 copies were sent out for review. Hank P used a
copy to mark-up final editing changes to take to Cornwall Press. Neither the
review or mark-up copies contained all the stories that were to be
published. They both had 20 out of the 29 planned stories and one of them
was "Ace Full Seven Eleven" which was withdrawn." The manuscript page
margins were quite narrow (around 1/2 inch) on 3 edges. Consequently, a
manuscript page contained much more text and, on average, would probably
yield 2+ Big Book pages.

Claims that Uzzell pared the manuscript from 800/600 pages down to 400
pages, now seem to me as 800/600 apples being pared down to 400 oranges.
It's a certainty that Uzzell reduced the number of manuscript pages
initially given him, but the 400 number is the page count of the published
1st edition Big Book not the manuscript.

Given Mel B's role in Pass It On, perhaps he can enlighten us on the source
of the citation.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charley Bill
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:05 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Question on BB Manuscript editing by Tom
Uzzell

Robert, that is a very good question. It has me stumped because I cannot
find mention of Uzzell on page 204 of Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers nor is
he listed in the name index. I am curious, what edition are you using? Mine
is first edition, copyright 1980, 12th printing, 1995. I may need to update!
_____________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR, GLENN C:

I think Bob meant to say page 204 of PASS IT ON, the biography of Bill
Wilson. That's where you'll find the reference to Tom Uzzell.
_____________________________________

Robert Stonebraker wrote in Message 9677
http://health.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/9677

> I would like to ask at what point of the Big Book Manuscript writing did

Tom Uzzell cut the Big Book Manuscript from 800 to 400 pages (Page 204, Dr.
Bob and the Good Old Timers)?




------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

| 9819|9811|2014-02-27 11:00:46|Norm The Tinman|Re: Dr Bob Letters|
Thanks Shakey Mike --  Norm


On Monday, February 17, 2014 2:00 PM, Shakey Mike wrote:
 
The correct procedure , I believe, is a written application to review the letters. GSO Archives does not copy letters anymore.You get to review them and copy them by hand. It’s a long process. Your request letter to see the archival material is reviewed by the Trustees of the Archives Committee if GSO on a quarterly basis . You will then be notified.I am not sure that Michelle votes in this process but I will forward this to her and await her reply. also there may be Dr.Bob letters at Brown. Jared L would know about that.
YIS,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
CoChair 18th NAAAW -Oct 2014




On Feb 16, 2014, at 4:24 PM, rick tompkins <richardwtompkins@gmail.com> wrote:


Dr. Bob never wrote long letters, but any set of complete correspondence can be viewed at the AA Archives in the General Service Office.
You can view them only, with a specific, written intent and subsequent approval from the Archivist, Michelle Mirza.
Rick, Illinois
 
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm The Tinman
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 6:00 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters
 
 
Where can I find letters from Dr Bob to Bill--anyone please--  Norm Langille




| 9820|9820|2014-02-27 11:10:06|ocean_view_77|correspondence between AA and NA early 50s|
  I'm wondering if anyone can give me information on correspondences' between Bill and either jimmy K from narcotics anonymous  in the early 50s. Also from  Danny Carlson, Rae Lopez or Dorothy Berry, who were involved in the movement of N.A. late 40s 50s 60s. Jay-clean87@aol.com
 

| 9821|9821|2014-02-27 11:10:25|honest03060|Old New York City Meeting Lists?|
Are copies of NYC meetings how far back they go and how can I get copies?

Thanks
SWJ
| 9822|9822|2014-02-27 11:17:39|Shakey1aa@aol.com|Fwd: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters|


Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Mirza, Michelle" <mirzam@aa.org>
Date: February 18, 2014 at 1:08:16 PM EST
To: Shakey Mike <shakey1aa@aol.com>
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

Dear Mike,

 

There are letters between Dr. Bob and Bill in the G.S.O. Archives . In order to consult the letters, please review the attached policy and fill and sign the accompanying application form. Let me know if there are any questions.

 

Sincerely,

 

Michelle Mirza

Archivist

 


From: Shakey Mike [mailto:shakey1aa@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 9:38 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Mirza, Michelle
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

 

The correct procedure , I believe, is a written application to review the letters. GSO Archives does not copy letters anymore.You get to review them and copy them by hand. It’s a long process. Your request letter to see the archival material is reviewed by the Trustees of the Archives Committee if GSO on a quarterly basis . You will then be notified.I am not sure that Michelle votes in this process but I will forward this to her and await her reply. also there may be Dr.Bob letters at Brown. Jared L would know about that.

YIS,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

CoChair 18th NAAAW -Oct 2014

 

 

 

 

On Feb 16, 2014, at 4:24 PM, rick tompkins <richardwtompkins@gmail.com> wrote:



 

Dr. Bob never wrote long letters, but any set of complete correspondence can be viewed at the AA Archives in the General Service Office.

You can view them only, with a specific, written intent and subsequent approval from the Archivist, Michelle Mirza .

Rick, Illinois

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm The Tinman
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 6:00 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

 

 

Where can I find letters from Dr Bob to Bill--anyone please--  Norm Langille

 

 

| 9823|9823|2014-02-27 11:42:58|Bill|Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|

Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA:

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us/alcoholics-anonymous-without-the-religion.html?_r=0&referrer

 

Alcoholics Anonymous, Without the Religion

For some, a typical A.A. meeting is an anguishing choice between sobriety and hypocrisy.

 

Three floors above a Manhattan street of loading docks and coffee shops, in a functional room of folding chairs and linoleum tile, a man who introduced himself as Vic began to speak. “Today is my 35th anniversary,” he said. The dozen people seated around him applauded, and several even whooped in support.

 

By most overt measures, this gathering two weeks ago was just another meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, one of its multitude of meetings worldwide. At the session’s end an hour later, however, as the participants clasped hands, instead of reciting the Lord’s Prayer in usual A.A. fashion, they said together, “Live and let live.”

 

This meeting, as the parting phrase suggests, is one of a growing number within A.A. that appeal to nonreligious people in recovery, who might variously describe themselves as agnostics, atheists, humanists or freethinkers. While such groups were rare even a decade ago, now they number about 150 nationally. A first-ever convention will be held in November in Santa Monica, Calif.

 

The boom in nonreligious A.A. represents another manifestation of a more visible and confident humanist movement in the United States, one that has featured public figures such as Bill Maher, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens. Yet this recent trend within A.A. also marks a departure from the organization’s traditional emphasis on religion.

 

“A.A. starts at its core with honesty,” said Dorothy, 39, who heads the steering committee for the We Agnostics and Freethinkers International A.A. Convention. “And how can you be honest in recovery if you’re not honest in your own beliefs? If you don’t believe in the God they’re praying to, that’s not honest practice.”

 

(A.A. members hold to a tradition of not being identified by full name. I sat in on a portion of one secular A.A. meeting with the advance consent of the attendees.)

 

Seven of A.A.’s famous 12 steps refer either to a deity — “God,” “Him” or “a Power greater than ourselves” — or to religious practices such as prayer. The ultimate goal of sobriety, as the final step states, is to achieve a “spiritual awakening.” Besides the Lord’s Prayer, the Serenity Prayer is a staple of A.A. meetings.

 

Many of A.A.’s foundational documents do simultaneously emphasize an open, inclusive, nonjudgmental attitude toward anyone seeking sobriety. The group’s basic text, “Alcoholics Anonymous,” notes that membership “should be an entirely personal affair which each one decides for himself in the light of past associations or his present choice.”

 

In practice, though, a religious tone became the norm within A.A. What it meant for alcoholics like Vic was an anguishing choice between sobriety and hypocrisy. To participate in a typical A.A. meeting felt to them like hiding, if not violating, deeply held secular beliefs.

 

Now 70 and working in the film industry, Vic began drinking on a Saturday night at age 15 when his parents left their New Jersey home long enough for him and several friends to drain a bottle of Southern Comfort. Not for the last time, his binge ended with projectile vomit.

 

It was also during Vic’s teenage years when he began to reject the Roman Catholicism of his upbringing. The first doubt came when a priest informed him that if he ate a hamburger on Friday, in defiance of the Catholic Church’s tradition of forgoing meat on that day, he would go to hell.

 

During all the subsequent decades of drinking, the closest Vic got to faith was what he puckishly calls his “foxhole prayer” — to make it through his hangover. Liquor led to cocaine, and one night in 1979, Vic’s dealer laid out something new, a few lines of heroin. Even through the ethereal haze, Vic was frightened enough to decide to go to A.A.

 

That first meeting, characteristically enough, took place in a church. “I was willing to try anything,” Vic recalled. “If they say to pray on your knees morning and night ...” For his first several years in A.A., he did regularly pray, trying to reacquire a faith he thought sobriety required. Even after accepting the fact he still did not believe God existed, he kept attending meetings, feeling privately isolated despite the camaraderie and common purpose.

 

Glenn, a painter living in Manhattan, had a similar experience to Vic’s. When he first went to an A.A. meeting 27 years ago, he found himself confronted by religious language and ritual that he considered anathema. Desperate to stop drinking, he tried to fit in.

 

“They had this fake-it-till-you-make-it attitude,” recalled Glenn, 72. “This feeling that the religion will catch up with you. It worked in the sense that I got sober. But I got weary of it. It felt mindless.”

 

After 10 years without alcohol, Glenn ordered a glass of wine and spent the next five years suffering from what he wryly diagnoses now as “the merlot flu.”

 

Soon after resuming A.A., though, he heard about a meeting designed for atheists. Though he found that group dogmatic in its own way — more concerned with criticizing religion than with reinforcing sobriety — he subsequently discovered a meeting for humanists and freethinkers.

 

In its “fellowship of concerned, loving people,” he said, he found a secular version of the “Higher Power” to which A.A. literature refers. Humanist A.A. groups also have drafted their own nontheistic versions of the 12 steps. Instead of needing divine assistance for recovery, for example, one step states that “we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.”

 

By now, Glenn has sponsored seven humanists into A.A. He regularly attends three secular A.A. meetings each week. Similarly, Vic goes to four nonreligious A.A. meetings weekly. Those seven meetings are among the 13 currently operating in New York, according to the website agnosticaanyc.org, which itself was formed only in 2002.

 

Deliberately or not, secular members like Vic and Glenn seem unable to resist a certain brand of wordplay. Speaking of nonreligious A.A.’s legitimacy, Vic put it, “We’re kosher.” As for the effect, Glenn said, “It’s heaven.”

| 9824|9824|2014-02-27 11:43:32|bent_christensen5|7th tradition small contribution from grategul guest|
Dear group

Somewhere I have seen Bill W. write something like this: "To hold a grateful guest from making a small contribution for the coffee is not in the spirit of seventh tradition . It is false pride, to show that we truly can handle ourselves."

Can someone please point me in the direction where I can find this?

Best regards
Bent
| 9825|9822|2014-02-27 11:45:48|Jesse James|Re: Dr Bob Letters|
I've had luck with this site, I think it was somewhere here on the Silkworth site that I had earlier found those letters. Here's the link:
http://www.silkworth.net/pdfDrBob/pdfDrBob.html
- Jesse
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tuesday, February 18, 2014, <Shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote:


Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Mirza, Michelle" <mirzam@aa.org>
Date: February 18, 2014 at 1:08:16 PM EST
To: Shakey Mike <shakey1aa@aol.com>
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

Dear Mike,

 

There are letters between Dr. Bob and Bill in the G.S.O. Archives. In order to consult the letters, please review the attached policy and fill and sign the accompanying application form. Let me know if there are any questions.

 

Sincerely,

 

Michelle Mirza

Archivist

 


From: Shakey Mike [mailto:shakey1aa@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 9:38 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Mirza, Michelle
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

 

The correct procedure , I believe, is a written application to review the letters. GSO Archives does not copy letters anymore.You get to review them and copy them by hand. It’s a long process. Your request letter to see the archival material is reviewed by the Trustees of the Archives Committee if GSO on a quarterly basis . You will then be notified.I am not sure that Michelle votes in this process but I will forward this to her and await her reply. also there may be Dr.Bob letters at Brown. Jared L would know about that.

YIS,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

CoChair 18th NAAAW -Oct 2014

 

 

 

 

On Feb 16, 2014, at 4:24 PM, rick tompkins <richardwtompkins@gmail.com> wrote:



 

Dr. Bob never wrote long letters, but any set of complete correspondence can be viewed at the AA Archives in the General Service Office.

You can view them only, with a specific, written intent and subsequent approval from the Archivist, Michelle Mirza.

Rick, Illinois

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm The Tinman
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 6:00 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob Letters

 

 

Where can I find letters from Dr Bob to Bill--anyone please--  Norm Langille

 

| 9826|9826|2014-02-27 11:48:05|Roger Connor|Questioning Numbers|
On p 17 of the BB .... "We, of ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, know thosands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill.  Nearly all have recovered.  They have solved the drink problem."

BB was published in 1939.  Thousands seems a stretch for membership that early.  Has BB been updated since first published?

"Nearly all have recovered," also seems exaggerrated.

Are these statements correct?

Thank you,

Roger Connor
| 9827|9727|2014-02-27 11:51:05|morningmael|Re: Four books -- Bill Wilson|

Glenn Chestnut documented in message 9343 the entire letter that Bill Wilson wrote Mel B. on July 2, 1956 that appears on pages 18-22 of Mel’s book “My Search For Bill W.”  So I’ll only include the last paragraph of that letter here, which I believe provides Bill Wilson’s own opinion regarding himself as a reader.  I added bolding for emphasis.

 

“Dr. Bob was made of better stuff. In his personal life, he always came much closer to spiritual achievement than I ever did. He seems never to have been victimized by awful conflicts. Though this is not for sure, because he was a real stoic. Unlike me, he was a fast reader of spiritual and psychic literature. He had a great library of it. By contrast, my own reading has been very sparse I have rather relied more on observation and conversation. I guess I’m still a shopper at the theological pie-counter, still wondering in many aspects what it’s all about. So, my friend, you know have the latest bulletin on my own state of grace. I do hope it helps reduce any overestimate that you may have had about me. And I do hope, for another thing – the really impossible – that someday the society will let me become just a plain member.”

 

I don't need to add anything to Bill Wilson's own words.

 

Gary Neidhardt

 

| 9828|9828|2014-02-27 11:51:49|Charles Knapp|Grapevine Covers|
I have a request................

Could someone who has the Sept and Oct 1948 AA Grapevines scan the covers and send me the pics?
I am work on a project about the GV history and would really appreciate including these images.
Sept 1948 is when the AA Grapevine when to the size it is today and would really like to be able to show that issue

Thanking everyone in advance...........

Charles from Wisconsin

Please send to:
cpknapp@yahoo.com
| 9829|9823|2014-02-27 13:17:21|xxpmds|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|
What makes you declare that these are not AA groups?
 
In a message dated 2/27/2014 11:43:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, barefootbill@optonline.net writes:
 

Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us/alcoholics-anonymous-without-the-religion.html?_r=0&referrer

Alcoholics Anonymous, Without the Religion

For some, a typical A.A. meeting is an anguishing choice between sobriety and hypocrisy.

Three floors above a Manhattan street of loading docks and coffee shops, in a functional room of folding chairs and linoleum tile, a man who introduced himself as Vic began to speak. “Today is my 35th anniversary,” he said. The dozen people seated around him applauded, and several even whooped in support.

By most overt measur es, this gathering two weeks ago was just another meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, one of its multitude of meetings worldwide. At the session’s end an hour later, however, as the participants clasped hands, instead of reciting the Lord’s Prayer in usual A.A. fashion, they said together, “Live and let live.”

This meeting, as the parting phrase suggests, is one of a growing number within A.A. that appeal to nonreligious people in recovery, who might variously describe themselves as agnostics, atheists, humanists or freethinkers. While such groups were rare even a decade ago, now they number about 150 nationally. A first-ever convention will be held in November in Santa Monica, Calif.

The boom in nonreligious A.A. represents another manifestation of a more visible and confident humanist movement in the United States, o ne that has featured public figures such as Bill Maher, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens. Yet this recent trend within A.A. also marks a departure from the organization’s traditional emphasis on religion.

“A.A. starts at its core with honesty,” said Dorothy, 39, who heads the steering committee for the We Agnostics and Freethinkers International A.A. Convention. “And how can you be honest in recovery if you’re not honest in your own beliefs? If you don’t believe in the God they’re praying to, that’s not honest practice.”

(A.A. members hold to a tradition of not being identified by full name. I sat in on a portion of one secular A.A. meeting with the advance consent of the attendees.)

Seven of A.A.’s f amous 12 steps refer either to a deity — “God,” “Him” or “a Power greater than ourselves” — or to religious practices such as prayer. The ultimate goal of sobriety, as the final step states, is to achieve a “spiritual awakening.” Besides the Lord’s Prayer, the Serenity Prayer is a staple of A.A. meetings.

Many of A.A.’s foundational documents do simultaneously emphasize an open, inclusive, nonjudgmental attitude toward anyone seeking sobriety. The group’s basic text, “Alcoholics Anonymous,” notes that membership “should be an entirely personal affair which each one decides for himself in the light of past associations or his present choice.”

In practice, though, a religious tone became the norm within A.A. What it meant for alcoholics like Vic was an anguishing choice between sobriety and hypocrisy. To participate in a typical A.A. meeting felt to them like hiding, if not violating, deeply held secular beliefs.

Now 70 and working in the film industry, Vic began drinking on a Saturday night at age 15 when his parents left their New Jersey home long enough for him and several friends to drain a bottle of Southern Comfort. Not for the last time, his binge ended with projectile vomit.

It was also during Vic’s teenage years when he began to reject the Roman Catholicism of his upbringing. The first doubt came when a priest informed him that if he ate a hamburger on Friday, in defiance of the Catholic Church’s tradition of forgoing meat on that day, he would go to hell.

During all the subsequent decad es of drinking, the closest Vic got to faith was what he puckishly calls his “foxhole prayer” — to make it through his hangover. Liquor led to cocaine, and one night in 1979, Vic’s dealer laid out something new, a few lines of heroin. Even through the ethereal haze, Vic was frightened enough to decide to go to A.A.

That first meeting, characteristically enough, took place in a church. “I was willing to try anything,” Vic recalled. “If they say to pray on your knees morning and night ...” For his first several years in A.A., he did regularly pray, trying to reacquire a faith he thought sobriety required. Even after accepting the fact he still did not believe God existed, he kept attending meetings, feeling privately isolated despite the camaraderie and common purpose.

Glenn, a painter living i n Manhattan, had a similar experience to Vic’s. When he first went to an A.A. meeting 27 years ago, he found himself confronted by religious language and ritual that he considered anathema. Desperate to stop drinking, he tried to fit in.

“They had this fake-it-till-you-make-it attitude,” recalled Glenn, 72. “This feeling that the religion will catch up with you. It worked in the sense that I got sober. But I got weary of it. It felt mindless.”

After 10 years without alcohol, Glenn ordered a glass of wine and spent the next five years suffering from what he wryly diagnoses now as “the merlot flu.”

Soon after resuming A.A., though, he heard about a meeting designed for atheists. Though he found that group dogmatic in its own way  212; more concerned with criticizing religion than with reinforcing sobriety — he subsequently discovered a meeting for humanists and freethinkers.

In its “fellowship of concerned, loving people,” he said, he found a secular version of the “Higher Power” to which A.A. literature refers. Humanist A.A. groups also have drafted their own nontheistic versions of the 12 steps. Instead of needing divine assistance for recovery, for example, one step states that “we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.”

By now, Glenn has sponsored seven humanists into A.A. He regularly attends three secular A.A. meetings each week. Similarly, Vic goes to four nonreligious A.A. meetings weekly. Those seven meetings are among the 13 currently operating in New York, according to the we bsite agnosticaanyc.org, which itself was formed only in 2002.

Deliberately or not, secular members like Vic and Glenn seem unable to resist a certain brand of wordplay. Speaking of nonreligious A.A.’s legitimacy, Vic put it, “We’re kosher.” As for the effect, Glenn said, “It’s heaven.”

| 9830|9823|2014-02-27 13:18:05|Tom Hickcox|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|
NOTE TO MODERATOR:  Don't feel that you need to use this.  You'll probably get better responses.  Edit if you want or trash it.  -T


On 2/26/2014 08:33, Bill wrote:


Tradition Three says, 3.—Our membership ought to include all who
suffer alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who
wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever
depend upon money or conformity. Any two or
three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may
call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a
group, they have no other affiliation.

(The only requirement for A.A. membership
is a desire to stop drinking.)


What, exactly, is your problem, Bill? 

There was a thread on the list within the last couple of years about a secular group in Toronto.  The search feature isn't working so I can't find it.  IIRC, the Third Tradition is in charge here.  The Steps are introduced as, "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a Program of Recovery."  "A" program, not "The" or "The A.A." program.

Tommy H in Ky.


| 9831|9831|2014-02-27 13:18:21|Glenn Chesnut|Megalomaniac with an inferiority complex|
From: RoySLev = royslev@verizon.net

I’ve been hearing for years around the Fellowship discussions of the personality of the alcoholic.  Many of these descriptions are found in our conference approved literature.  They include: “extreme example of self-will run riot,” “hypersensitive to the point of a serious handicap,” “defiant grandiosity” “emotionally immature” etc.

These descriptions (I haven’t quoted exactly) occur in our Big Book, our 12&12, in Dr Harry Tiebout’s writings, and other literature.

Around meetings I’ve often heard the slogan: “the alcoholic is like a megalomaniac with an inferiority complex.”  Does anyone know the origin of this psychological description?

Is it from some of Bill Wilson’s writings?  Or is it from outside the A.A. literature?

Thanks

Roy L.  a.k.a. “a miracle of mental health”  class of `78


| 9832|9826|2014-02-27 13:20:53|Jeff Bruce|Re: Questioning Numbers|
Roger--

While the Big Book may have been first published in 1939, the text has changed in quite a few places over the years.  The wording in the first edition is: "We of Alcoholics Anonymous know one hundred men who were just as hopeless as Bill."

Note also the disparity between the subtitle of your edition (probably "The story of how many thousands of men and women, etc") and the first sentence to the Forward to the First Edition published in your 2nd, 3rd, or 4th edition.


On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 10:04 PM, Roger Connor <rmcusa37@gmail.com> wrote:
 

On p 17 of the BB .... "We, of ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, know thosands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill.  Nearly all have recovered.  They have solved the drink problem."

BB was published in 1939.  Thousands seems a stretch for membership that early.  Has BB been updated since first published?

"Nearly all have recovered," also seems exaggerrated.

Are these statements correct?

Thank you,

Roger Connor


| 9833|9833|2014-03-03 16:05:26|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said|
From: Roy L. = royslev@yahoo.com (royslev at yahoo.com)

Did Dr. Bob and Rowland Hazard know one another, as Clancy I. has claimed?

Clancy I., who was a popular circuit-speaker, often repeated the tale of Rowland Hazard calling up Freud and Adler before "settling" on Dr. Jung. So I called up Clancy at his work number here in Los Angeles. When he returned my call, I asked him where he got this information.  He told me that "an old-timer I met in Akron who was a sponsee of Doctor Bob had told him about these calls Rowland made."  And that this long-timer had gotten this information from Doctor Bob.

I thanked Clancy for returning my call, but his citing of a mere word-of-mouth source renewed my doubts as to the veracity of this oft-repeated statement.  In effect, it's not reliable A.A. history, it's a "folk-tale" in my opinion.

To give Clancy's source the benefit of the doubt I sent in further emails to this group requesting knowledge as to the extent of Doctor Bob's contacts with Rowland, perhaps through Oxford Group activities.  Because for Clancy's source to have been true, Rowland would have had to have recounted this information to Doctor Bob, and Doctor Bob would have to have mentioned it to his sponsee, the Akron "old-timer" who passed it on to Clancy. Did Doctor Bob actually meet Rowland at all? This is what I wanted to know.

Unless we get further information as to the factual basis/reliability of this tale/allegation from this group, I tend to agree with the researchers who seem to believe this business about Freud and Adler is spurious.  Clancy's source is pure hearsay.

Regards,

Roy L. a.k.a. "a miracle of mental health" class of `78



| 9834|9824|2014-03-03 17:04:39|Tom Hickcox|Re: 7th tradition small contribution from grategul guest|
On 2/26/2014 10:24, bent_christensen5@yahoo.com wrote:
Dear group

Somewhere I have seen Bill W. write something like this: "To hold a grateful guest from making a small contribution for the coffee is not in the��spirit of��seventh tradition . It is false pride, to show that we truly can handle ourselves."

Can someone please point me in the direction where I can find this?

Read the pamphlet P-17,�� A.A. Tradition How It Developed by Bill W, p. 29.

"Of course, it can hardly be counted an excep���
tion to the principle of self���support if a non alcoholic
friend comes to a meeting and drops a dollar in
the hat."

Same meaning with different words.

Tommy H in Ky.


| 9835|9820|2014-03-03 17:09:27|ckbudnick|Re: correspondence between AA and NA early 50s|
Hey Jay,

I can't recall if I've sent you the following chronology, but it lists every communication we have been able to find about addicts by Bill W. We certainly hope other people can direct us to new sources related to this topic.

http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2013%20NA%20Chronology%20-%20Volume%20One%202nd%20Edition.pdf

Thanks,

Chris

---- eggcream@aol.com wrote:

=============
I'm wondering if anyone can give me information on correspondences' between Bill and either jimmy K from narcotics anonymous in the early 50s. Also from Danny Carlson, Rae Lopez or Dorothy Berry, who were involved in the movement of N.A. late 40s 50s 60s. Jay-clean87@aol.com mailto:Jay-clean87@aol.com
| 9836|9823|2014-03-03 17:10:54|Jay Pees|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|
" Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group provided that as a group the have no other affiliation."

Seems to me like the above, from our literature, should decide if hey are A.A. or not. 

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 27, 2014, at 2:56 PM, pmds@aol.com wrote:

 

What makes you declare that these are not AA groups?
 
In a message dated 2/27/2014 11:43:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, barefootbill@optonline.net writes:
 

Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us/alcoholics-anonymous-without-the-religion.html?_r=0&referrer

Alcoholics Anonymous, Without the Religion

For some, a typical A.A. meeting is an anguishing choice between sobriety and hypocrisy.

Three floors above a Manhattan street of loading docks and coffee shops, in a functional room of folding chairs and linoleum tile, a man who introduced himself as Vic began to speak. “Today is my 35th anniversary,” he said. The dozen people seated around him applauded, and several even whooped in support.

By most overt measur es, this gathering two weeks ago was just another meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, one of its multitude of meetings worldwide. At the session’s end an hour later, however, as the participants clasped hands, instead of reciting the Lord’s Prayer in usual A.A. fashion, they said together, “Live and let live.”

This meeting, as the parting phrase suggests, is one of a growing number within A.A. that appeal to nonreligious people in recovery, who might variously describe themselves as agnostics, atheists, humanists or freethinkers. While such groups were rare even a decade ago, now they number about 150 nationally. A first-ever convention will be held in November in Santa Monica, Calif.

The boom in nonreligious A.A. represents another manifestation of a more visible and confident humanist movement in the United States, o ne that has featured public figures such as Bill Maher, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens. Yet this recent trend within A.A. also marks a departure from the organization’s traditional emphasis on religion.

“A.A. starts at its core with honesty,” said Dorothy, 39, who heads the steering committee for the We Agnostics and Freethinkers International A.A. Convention. “And how can you be honest in recovery if you’re not honest in your own beliefs? If you don’t believe in the God they’re praying to, that’s not honest practice.”

(A.A. members hold to a tradition of not being identified by full name. I sat in on a portion of one secular A.A. meeting with the advance consent of the attendees.)

Seven of A.A.’s f amous 12 steps refer either to a deity — “God,” “Him” or “a Power greater than ourselves” — or to religious practices such as prayer. The ultimate goal of sobriety, as the final step states, is to achieve a “spiritual awakening.” Besides the Lord’s Prayer, the Serenity Prayer is a staple of A.A. meetings.

Many of A.A.’s foundational documents do simultaneously emphasize an open, inclusive, nonjudgmental attitude toward anyone seeking sobriety. The group’s basic text, “Alcoholics Anonymous,” notes that membership “should be an entirely personal affair which each one decides for himself in the light of past associations or his present choice.”

In practice, though, a religious tone became the norm within A.A. What it meant for alcoholics like Vic was an anguishing choice between sobriety and hypocrisy. To participate in a typical A.A. meeting felt to them like hiding, if not violating, deeply held secular beliefs.

Now 70 and working in the film industry, Vic began drinking on a Saturday night at age 15 when his parents left their New Jersey home long enough for him and several friends to drain a bottle of Southern Comfort. Not for the last time, his binge ended with projectile vomit.

It was also during Vic’s teenage years when he began to reject the Roman Catholicism of his upbringing. The first doubt came when a priest informed him that if he ate a hamburger on Friday, in defiance of the Catholic Church’s tradition of forgoing meat on that day, he would go to hell.

During all the subsequent decad es of drinking, the closest Vic got to faith was what he puckishly calls his “foxhole prayer” — to make it through his hangover. Liquor led to cocaine, and one night in 1979, Vic’s dealer laid out something new, a few lines of heroin. Even through the ethereal haze, Vic was frightened enough to decide to go to A.A.

That first meeting, characteristically enough, took place in a church. “I was willing to try anything,” Vic recalled. “If they say to pray on your knees morning and night ...” For his first several years in A.A., he did regularly pray, trying to reacquire a faith he thought sobriety required. Even after accepting the fact he still did not believe God existed, he kept attending meetings, feeling privately isolated despite the camaraderie and common purpose.

Glenn, a painter living i n Manhattan, had a similar experience to Vic’s. When he first went to an A.A. meeting 27 years ago, he found himself confronted by religious language and ritual that he considered anathema. Desperate to stop drinking, he tried to fit in.

“They had this fake-it-till-you-make-it attitude,” recalled Glenn, 72. “This feeling that the religion will catch up with you. It worked in the sense that I got sober. But I got weary of it. It felt mindless.”

After 10 years without alcohol, Glenn ordered a glass of wine and spent the next five years suffering from what he wryly diagnoses now as “the merlot flu.”

Soon after resuming A.A., though, he heard about a meeting designed for atheists. Though he found that group dogmatic in its own way  212; more concerned with criticizing religion than with reinforcing sobriety — he subsequently discovered a meeting for humanists and freethinkers.

In its “fellowship of concerned, loving people,” he said, he found a secular version of the “Higher Power” to which A.A. literature refers. Humanist A.A. groups also have drafted their own nontheistic versions of the 12 steps. Instead of needing divine assistance for recovery, for example, one step states that “we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.”

By now, Glenn has sponsored seven humanists into A.A. He regularly attends three secular A.A. meetings each week. Similarly, Vic goes to four nonreligious A.A. meetings weekly. Those seven meetings are among the 13 currently operating in New York, according to the we bsite agnosticaanyc.org, which itself was formed only in 2002.

Deliberately or not, secular members like Vic and Glenn seem unable to resist a certain brand of wordplay. Speaking of nonreligious A.A.’s legitimacy, Vic put it, “We’re kosher.” As for the effect, Glenn said, “It’s heaven.”

| 9837|9823|2014-03-03 17:15:22|StephenRyan|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|
I humble disagree with your point of view here. The steps are the Program !

The only problem as I see with atheist, agnostics, secular, freethinking groups are when they change the steps to suite their own beliefs. At that point they are no longer an AA group and need to become their fellowship such as NA, GA, OA, etc.

On the other hand, if they are using the steps, traditions, concepts as they are laid out in our Big Book, 12 & 12 and service manual, they can be any kind of specialized group they want to be, provided they are open to all that want to recover from alcoholism. 

Stephen R.
Florida




On Feb 27, 2014, at 3:51 PM, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> wrote:

 

NOTE TO MODERATOR:  Don't feel that you need to use this.  You'll probably get better responses.  Edit if you want or trash it.  -T


On 2/26/2014 08:33, Bill wrote:


Tradition Three says, 3.—Our membership ought to include all who
suffer alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who
wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever
depend upon money or conformity. Any two or
three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may
call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a
group, they have no other affiliation.

(The only requirement for A.A. membership
is a desire to stop drinking.)


What, exactly, is your problem, Bill? 

There was a thread on the list within the last couple of years about a secular group in Toronto.  The search feature isn't working so I can't find it.  IIRC, the Third Tradition is in charge here.  The Steps are introduced as, "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a Program of Recovery."  "A" program, not "The" or "The A.A." program.

Tommy H in Ky.


| 9838|9831|2014-03-04 09:08:50|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Megalomaniac with an inferiority complex|
From Jim B. and abdlomax

.......................................................

FROM: Jim B. = jim27422001 = jblair@videotron.ca (jblair at videotron.ca)

==================================================
Roy wrote: [I’ve been hearing for years around the Fellowship discussions of the personality of the alcoholic. Many of these descriptions are found in our conference approved literature. They include: "extreme example of self-will run riot," "hypersensitive to the point of a serious handicap," "defiant grandiosity" "emotionally immature" etc.]
==================================================

A bit of history. In 1940, Bill W., Marty M. and a few others set up a Board to run High Watch Farm in Kent, Connecticut and it was to operate as a "retreat" or "rest house" and they hired Ray C., "a lay psychologist" to manage the facility.

Ray established a "therapeutic" program and patients were charged 2$ a day and Ray’s private patients paid 30$ a day.

What happened is best covered in William White’s book Slaying the Dragon but in short the program soon evolved into seeking the why of alcoholism and they developed a profile of "the alcoholic personality."

Tensions developed around the shaping of the farm’s identity and the use of an A.A. Therapist at the farm. Also the mixing of "treatment" and "recovery." In September 1941, Ray C. resigned and the farm abandoned the integration of professionalized therapeutic services and focused instead on spiritual immersion in A.A. literature, stories, and rituals.

However, the myth of the "Alcoholic Personality" carried on and letters pro and con were published in the A.A. Grapevine.

In January 1947, Dr. Silkworth penned an article "Slips and Human Nature." The article covers 4 pages but the main points are as follows:

"In both professional and lay circles, there is a tendency to label everything that an alcoholic may do as "alcoholic behaviour." The truth is, it is simply human nature."

"It is very wrong to consider many of the personality traits observed in liquor addicts as peculiar to the alcoholics. Emotions and mental quirks are classified as symptoms of alcoholism simply because alcoholics have them, yet the same quirks can be found among non-alcoholics too. Actually they are symptoms of mankind."

He goes on to explain how people with heart disease and diabetes slip away from their programs and yet we don’t proclaim that they have a "diabetic personality" or "cardiac personality."

Hope this helps.

Jim B.

.......................................................

FROM: abdlomax = abd@lomaxdesign.com (abd at lomaxdesign.com)

How about "prone to self-descriptive hyperbole"?

I wasn't merely "stubborn," which would make me somewhat ordinary. I was "bull-headed, obstinately clinging to being right, tenaciously opinionated, believing that I was smarter than everyone else," and gee, I'm having difficulty stating it strongly enough.

*Anything* but being ordinary. Human. Like the rest of us humans.

Of course, I'm not an alcoholic, I had other favorite poisons, mostly behavioral, my Fellowship was a different 12-step program, but we do learn to describe ourselves in extrene terms, it's more entertaining, and entertainment is actually important.

We learn to speak in the programs, thus developing the capacity to connect with other human beings, and story-telling is a quintessential human behavior. It's not untruth, because these are all interpretations, not facts, they are based on complex comparisons. If they are useful, great. If not, we can learn to dump them.

Learning to speak, learning to listen, they go together.



| 9839|9833|2014-03-04 09:17:49|corafinch|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said|
One of several fishy things about that story is the phone calls.  People who wanted to get messages from North America to Europe quickly in the 1920s sent telegrams. Just in case, I googled "first transatlantic telephone call" and came up with "London to New York, March 7th, 1926." RH must have been in the top echelon of telecommunications if he made arrangements by phone and was in Zurich on April 6th, 1926. Although . . . maybe he went to Europe on spec and made the calls from Paris? Nothing is ever going to kill that story.
| 9840|9826|2014-03-04 09:31:36|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Questioning Numbers|
FROM: Tom Pasek = tp@bak.rr.com (tp at bak.rr.com)

We all often hear some variation of the phrase, "AA didn't work for me." Or, to quote from this thread, "'Nearly all have recovered' seems exaggerated."

For me I like to apply a bit of my perspective to the speaker as ask a question through an analogy. I happen to have a couple of allergies - pollen, dust, dogs, and the like. I take prescription pills and utilize an inhaler to mitigate their effects. If I didn't take the meds would it be legitimate for me to say that my doctor failed? I think not. By the same token, if an individual comes into the rooms of AA, but does not seriously take the steps and apply them to his or her life, did AA fail? Again, I think not.

Given that set of criteria for measuring whether "Nearly all have recovered" is exaggerated, again, I think not.

Description: Free Sketch 3

Tom Pasek, CEO
Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC, 7850 White Lane, Suite E-260, Bakersfield, California 93309
661.654.9116 (Phone) 253.390.8827 (Fax)
tom@shaggyd.com (tom at shaggyd.com)
www.shaggyd.com


| 9841|9823|2014-03-04 10:30:57|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|
From Peter N. (Vancouver), John Steele (HOW ABOUT THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE GODDESS?), Barefoot Bill, Laurie A. from Essex in England, Brian K., Ben G. (ljmesg), luvwindnwater, and Bailey GC

- - - -

FROM: Peter N. = r_peter2003 = fivequestionsguy@gmail.com (fivequestionsguy at gmail.com)

I'm not sure what all of this has to do with AA History, but if they are changing the wording of the Steps, then they obviously have some other affiliation.

Despite the fact that it is probably AA history in the making, I'm still not sure that all of this is an appropriate topic for our AAHistoryLovers group.  But here I go.  First, some background:

We change all that we touch.  When we are trying to create a better world, that is a good thing; when we are trying to duplicate what was successful in the past, it is not so good.  The Steps are messages and messages change in four ways.

First, the message changes in the retelling.  Remember the old childhood game of “whispers”?  It’s a game in which one person whispers a message to another, which is passed through a line of people until the last player announces the message to the entire group.  Errors typically accumulate in the retellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly from the one offered by the first.  An example of this is “Life must be lived as play” (a common paraphrase of a quote from Plato) ended up as “He bites snails”.

Second, the message changes in our memory.  Experiments conducted at Stanford and other universities show that our understanding and recall of even simple stories is severely diminished over time.  The experiments showed that even though intelligent, motivated college students had committed simple stories to memory, their retelling became more and more distorted over the ensuing months and years.

Third, meanings of the words themselves change.  Sometimes that change is subtle: in the 1930’s, a “suggestion” was a “proposal”, a “declaration of a plan”.  Nowadays, “suggest” means more like to “imply as a possibility”.  Sometimes the change is dramatic: in the 1930’s, “brainstorm” was a feverish sickness of the brain.  Today, it means something entirely different.

Finally, the message itself may not be properly understood.  An example of this is why they created Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, in the Big Book.  In 1941, when producing the 2nd printing, the authors changed one word in the Steps – from “spiritual experience” to “spiritual awakening” in Step 12.  They were so concerned about the implications of making even such a minor change that they felt it necessary to write a two-page essay explaining their reasons for the change.

==============================================
The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, [emphasis added] shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression [emphasis added] that these  personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals.  Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. [emphasis added].

==============================================

So what they are saying is that they felt they had to change the word because people were coming to erroneous conclusions reached by mistaken impressions from careless reading.

The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous were not meant to be interpreted or changed in any way.  They were meant to be a straightforward, careful delineation of a simple program that worked for the first 100 members of Alcoholics Anonymous.  The Steps were experiential, not theoretical.  The original members were not quite sure WHY they worked; they just knew from experience that they DID work.  Thus, it was important that they explain PRECISELY what they did.  To that end, they contemplated, discussed and argued over the exact wording until they had something they could all agree upon.  What they hammered out was the 200 words that describe the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.  EXACTLY two hundred words.  I don’t think that was happenstance.  I think that, over the years, we have accepted the opinions of too many so-called “experts” (both in and out of the Fellowship) and have lost our grasp of what the original members really meant.

Similarly, Tradition 3 rose out of the early members' EXPERIENCE.

So, historically, the "suggested" (i.e., proposed) program became the AA program.  If people want to change the wording of the program, then they obviously have some other affiliation and cannot, in good conscience, call themselves an AA Group. Individually, if they have a desire to stop drinking, they are more than welcome to attend an AA Group meeting.

Seems straightforward to me.

Peter N.
Vancouver, BC

- - - -

FROM: John Steele = johnny_moonowl = j.e.steele@live.com (j.e.steele at live.com)

Humm,
 
Interesting perspective. So if I choose the Goddess as my higher power, which the program gives me the "right" to do, and I change the steps to reflect that choice, then start a meeting for other people with the same belief, how is that not AA please? Is there any thing in the achieves about this quandary?
 
Thanks,
John E. Steele
j.e.steele@live.com
Class of '84

- - - -

FROM: Barefoot Bill = barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net)

At these groups' meetings they have an opening reading that drastically changes the wording of the 12 Steps eliminating all references to Higher Power or God. Any changes to the Steps is considered by GSO to have a major effect on AA as a whole (Tradition 4 - "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.").

Here in New Jersey their two meetings have been removed from the AA meeting list and they are lovingly being encouraged to start their own fellowship. Imagine a newcomer who has been to ten regular AA meetings and then shows up at an Agnostic Non-AA meeting and hears this version of the 12 Steps read by the leader as part of the opening:

=========================================
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe and accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives over to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
=========================================

I would imagine it would be very confusing for that newcomer. Perhaps attend one of their meetings and see for yourself. This is not a minor issue.

Just Love,

Barefoot Bill

- - - -

FROM: Laurie A. = eze_kiel03 = jennylaurie1@hotmail.com (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

'Nor ought AA membership depend on money nor conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group ... we can't force our beliefs or practices upon him... he may flout everything we stand for and still be  a member ... the most critical alcoholic may gather about himself a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new AA group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti our recovery program, even anti each other - these rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so'. (From Bill W's
article on Tradition Three, 'The Individual in Relation to AA as a Group', Grapevine, July 1946).

So AA 'can't force' a group to conform to the Conference-approved Steps and Traditions, or stop it using its own versions - or none at all! Equally, however, no group can demand admission to an intergroup, for example. The British AA directory 'Where to Find' lists groups on the understanding that they are non-restrictive.

- - - -

FROM: Brian K. = kochbrian2249 = kochbrian@hotmail.com (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

Respectfully I have to agree with the Third Tradition wording regarding any 2 or 3 alcoholics gathered together .... which has already been quoted  here.  I have been to meetings that do not display the steps, do not read the steps, and do not sell step-related literature.  A choice their group conscience seems to have made.  The steps, to me, are THE program of recovery associated with AA, but are not AA in its entirety.  I feel strongly about the steps, their inclusion in meetings, and their role as  the backbone of any reference to AA. However, that is my feeling.
 
I would be curious if anyone knows, from personal experience, if a group has been denied registration as a group by GSO when submitting their application? After reviewing the form for starting a new AA group, found on the GSO website, I see no questions regarding the format of the meeting, the type of meeting it is to be, the emphasis, if any, the group will place on the steps, etc.
 
After reviewing the application for a new group, it seems improbable / impossible that General Service could deny a new group membership. It does ask what nights it will be meeting, the location, the GSR information, and what language the new group would like to have literature be sent in.  The third tradition is spelled out in its long form on the top of the application.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Blessings,
 
Brian

- - - -

FROM: Ben G. = ljmesg@yahoo.com (ljmesg at yahoo.com)

This new group has taken the word God out of their literature. Can they still call themselves an AA group?

Hopefully AAWS will come out with a statement saying there is no affiliation with these people or this alternative movement.

Ben G.

- - - -

FROM: luvwindnwater = luvwindnwater@yahoo.com (luvwindnwater at yahoo.com)

Tradition 3: "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."

- - - -

FROM: BaileyGC = Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Father Dowling said, "We are agnostics." Also he said, "Who among us is not a phoney"? Bill W said, "There is freedom of thought and action." Bill  W also said, Certainly there is none that more jealously guards the members right to think, talk, and act as he wishes".
The steps are only suggested. The book is only suggested.


| 9842|9826|2014-03-04 10:31:42|Arthur|Re: Questioning Numbers|

You are right on the mark.

 

In his statements of AA success Bill W typically added the qualifier “Of Alcoholics who came to AA and really tried.” See the Foreword to the Second Edition for starters (1955).

 

See also

 

http://www.hindsfoot.org/lorarch.html

 

and

 

http://www.hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 11:28 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Questioning Numbers

 

 

FROM: Tom Pasek = tp@bak.rr.com (tp at bak.rr.com)

We all often hear some variation of the phrase, "AA didn't work for me." Or, to quote from this thread, "'Nearly all have recovered' seems exaggerated."

For me I like to apply a bit of my perspective to the speaker as ask a question through an analogy. I happen to have a couple of allergies - pollen, dust, dogs, and the like. I take prescription pills and utilize an inhaler to mitigate their effects. If I didn't take the meds would it be legitimate for me to say that my doctor failed? I think not. By the same token, if an individual comes into the rooms of AA, but does not seriously take the steps and apply them to his or her life, did AA fail? Again, I think not.

Given that set of criteria for measuring whether "Nearly all have recovered" is exaggerated, again, I think not.

Description: Free Sketch 3

Tom Pasek, CEO
Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC, 7850 White Lane, Suite E-260, Bakersfield, California 93309
661.654.9116 (Phone) 253.390.8827 (Fax)
tom@shaggyd.com (tom at shaggyd.com)
www.shaggyd.com

 

 

| 9843|9843|2014-03-04 10:32:00|aliasjb|Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|
Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.

Jeff B
Los Angeles
| 9844|9843|2014-03-04 11:33:26|Arthur|Re: Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|

Bill and Rowland both served on the Oxford Group’s “Businessmen’s Committee” along with T Henry Williams.

 

Rowland was also supposed to be a regular attendee of the gathering of alcoholic OG members at Stewart’s Cafeteria in the early, early days. There is also some debate, but no hard evidence that I’m aware of, that it was Rowland (not Ebby) who gave Bill a copy of William James’ “Varieties of Religious Experience” when Bill was in Towns Hospital (BB pg 28).

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aliasjb@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:27 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.

Jeff B
Los Angeles

| 9845|9843|2014-03-06 11:06:58|wkoeritzer|Re: Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|
Was this is Cleveland or NYC? I thought T Henry Williams lived in Cleveland?


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Arthur
Date: 03/04/2014 11:55 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson


 

Bill and Rowland both served on the Oxford Group’s “Businessmen’s Committee” along with T Henry Williams.

 

Rowland was also supposed to be a regular attendee of the gathering of alcoholic OG members at Stewart’s Cafeteria in the early, early days. There is also some debate, but no hard evidence that I’m aware of, that it was Rowland (not Ebby) who gave Bill a copy of William James’ “Varieties of Religious Experience” when Bill was in Towns Hospital (BB pg 28).

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aliasjb@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:27 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.

Jeff B
Los Angeles

| 9846|9823|2014-03-06 11:15:15|Arthur|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|

Peter N - your history of the Big Book and Steps is a bit revisionist (and editorial). You do not cite any sources for your assertions. Don’t want to come across as giving you a hard time but this is an AA history forum …

 

The first 100 members did not practice 12 Steps. They practiced word-of-mouth versions (plural) of 6 Steps. One version is in the Big Book story “He Sold Himself Short” (263 4th Ed) another is in “AA Comes of Age” (160) and “Pass It On” (197). The 12 Steps (written in December 1938) did not give AA the Big Book. The Big Book gave AA the 12 Steps in the period of early December 1938 and April 1939. There was much argument over their wording right up to the publication of the Big Book.

 

If you are familiar with the history of the Big Book the word “CONCISELY” would probably have been a better choice of words than “PRECISELY” to describe the book’s contents. That might sound like heresy but it is true (and I do love the Big Book and study it all year long at Big Book study meetings).

 

In terms of the number of words in the 12 Steps, you should check the book “Pass It On” (198-199) to see an estimate of the 1st draft of the 12 Steps. The prepublication manuscript also had a slightly different rendition than the 1st printing, 1st edition Big Book. The wording of Step 12 changed twice: in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition (1941) and 2nd printing of the 2nd edition (1955). The Spiritual Experience appendix was not added due to concerns over changing a word in Step 12. It was changed because too many members thought they had to have a spiritual experience similar to the one Bill W had in Towns Hospital. The appendix attempted to clear this up by misquoting William James re the “educational variety.” He never really said that but it was a reasonable paraphrasing of what he said.

 

Perhaps some citations from Bill W in “AA Comes of Age” might help clarify who is an AA member and what is an AA Group:

 

AACOA 102-103: … But as our fears subsided we finally said to ourselves, "Who are we to keep anybody out? To many a desperate drunk AA is the court of his last appeal. How can we slam the door on anybody who stands outside?" No, we must never do that. We must always take the risk, no matter who comes in. Maybe our public relations will be damaged because a few strange characters are among us. Of course our public relations are important, but is not the real character of this society still more important? Who of us dares to say, “No, you can't come in," thereby setting himself up as judge, jury, and perhaps executioner of his brother alcoholic? So the experience through the years, now distilled into Tradition Three, says, "You are an AA member if you say so. No matter what you have done, or still will do, you are an AA member as long as you say so."

 

AACOA 105: … For example, in its original "long form," Tradition Four (*) declares: "Any two or three gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation."· This means that these two or three Alcoholics could try for sobriety in any way they liked. They could disagree with any or all of AA's principles and still call themselves an AA group. (* an error by Bill - it should read Tradition Three instead of Four)

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 12:28 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA

 

 

From Peter N. (Vancouver), John Steele (HOW ABOUT THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE GODDESS?), Barefoot Bill, Laurie A. from Essex in England, Brian K., Ben G. (ljmesg), luvwindnwater, and Bailey GC

- - - -

FROM: Peter N. = r_peter2003 =
fivequestionsguy@gmail.com (fivequestionsguy at gmail.com)

I'm not sure what all of this has to do with AA History, but if they are changing the wording of the Steps, then they obviously have some other affiliation.

Despite the fact that it is probably AA history in the making, I'm still not sure that all of this is an appropriate topic for our AAHistoryLovers group.  But here I go.  First, some background:

We change all that we touch.  When we are trying to create a better world, that is a good thing; when we are trying to duplicate what was successful in the past, it is not so good.  The Steps are messages and messages change in four ways.

First, the message changes in the retelling.  Remember the old childhood game of “whispers”?  It’s a game in which one person whispers a message to another, which is passed through a line of people until the last player announces the message to the entire group.  Errors typically accumulate in the retellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly from the one offered by the first.  An example of this is “Life must be lived as play” (a common paraphrase of a quote from Plato) ended up as “He bites snails”.

Second, the message changes in our memory.  Experiments conducted at Stanford and other universities show that our understanding and recall of even simple stories is severely diminished over time.  The experiments showed that even though intelligent, motivated college students had committed simple stories to memory, their retelling became more and more distorted over the ensuing months and years.

Third, meanings of the words themselves change.  Sometimes that change is subtle: in the 1930’s, a “suggestion” was a “proposal”, a “declaration of a plan”.  Nowadays, “suggest” means more like to “imply as a possibility”.  Sometimes the change is dramatic: in the 1930’s, “brainstorm” was a feverish sickness of the brain.  Today, it means something entirely different.

Finally, the message itself may not be properly understood.  An example of this is why they created Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, in the Big Book.  In 1941, when producing the 2nd printing, the authors changed one word in the Steps – from “spiritual experience” to “spiritual awakening” in Step 12.  They were so concerned about the implications of making even such a minor change that they felt it necessary to write a two-page essay explaining their reasons for the change.

==============================================
The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, [emphasis added] shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression [emphasis added] that these  personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals.  Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. [emphasis added].

==============================================

So what they are saying is that they felt they had to change the word because people were coming to erroneous conclusions reached by mistaken impressions from careless reading.

The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous were not meant to be interpreted or changed in any way.  They were meant to be a straightforward, careful delineation of a simple program that worked for the first 100 members of Alcoholics Anonymous.  The Steps were experiential, not theoretical.  The original members were not quite sure WHY they worked; they just knew from experience that they DID work.  Thus, it was important that they explain PRECISELY what they did.  To that end, they contemplated, discussed and argued over the exact wording until they had something they could all agree upon.  What they hammered out was the 200 words that describe the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.  EXACTLY two hundred words.  I don’t think that was happenstance.  I think that, over the years, we have accepted the opinions of too many so-called “experts” (both in and out of the Fellowship) and have lost our grasp of what the original members really meant.

Similarly, Tradition 3 rose out of the early members' EXPERIENCE.

So, historically, the "suggested" (i.e., proposed) program became the AA program.  If people want to change the wording of the program, then they obviously have some other affiliation and cannot, in good conscience, call themselves an AA Group. Individually, if they have a desire to stop drinking, they are more than welcome to attend an AA Group meeting.

Seems straightforward to me.

Peter N.
Vancouver, BC

- - - -

FROM: John Steele = johnny_moonowl =
j.e.steele@live.com (j.e.steele at live.com)

Humm,
 
Interesting perspective. So if I choose the Goddess as my higher power, which the program gives me the "right" to do, and I change the steps to reflect that choice, then start a meeting for other people with the same belief, how is that not AA please? Is there any thing in the achieves about this quandary?
 
Thanks,
John E. Steele
j.e.steele@live.com
Class of '84

- - - -

FROM: Barefoot Bill =
barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net)

At these groups' meetings they have an opening reading that drastically changes the wording of the 12 Steps eliminating all references to Higher Power or God. Any changes to the Steps is considered by GSO to have a major effect on AA as a whole (Tradition 4 - "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.").

Here in New Jersey their two meetings have been removed from the AA meeting list and they are lovingly being encouraged to start their own fellowship. Imagine a newcomer who has been to ten regular AA meetings and then shows up at an Agnostic Non-AA meeting and hears this version of the 12 Steps read by the leader as part of the opening:

=========================================
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe and accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives over to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
=========================================

I would imagine it would be very confusing for that newcomer. Perhaps attend one of their meetings and see for yourself. This is not a minor issue.

Just Love,

Barefoot Bill

- - - -

FROM: Laurie A. = eze_kiel03 =
jennylaurie1@hotmail.com (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

'Nor ought AA membership depend on money nor conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group ... we can't force our beliefs or practices upon him... he may flout everything we stand for and still be  a member ... the most critical alcoholic may gather about himself a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new AA group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti our recovery program, even anti each other - these rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so'. (From Bill W's
article on Tradition Three, 'The Individual in Relation to AA as a Group', Grapevine, July 1946).

So AA 'can't force' a group to conform to the Conference-approved Steps and Traditions, or stop it using its own versions - or none at all! Equally, however, no group can demand admission to an intergroup, for example. The British AA directory 'Where to Find' lists groups on the understanding that they are non-restrictive.

- - - -

FROM: Brian K. = kochbrian2249 =
kochbrian@hotmail.com (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

Respectfully I have to agree with the Third Tradition wording regarding any 2 or 3 alcoholics gathered together .... which has already been quoted  here.  I have been to meetings that do not display the steps, do not read the steps, and do not sell step-related literature.  A choice their group conscience seems to have made.  The steps, to me, are THE program of recovery associated with AA, but are not AA in its entirety.  I feel strongly about the steps, their inclusion in meetings, and their role as  the backbone of any reference to AA. However, that is my feeling.
 
I would be curious if anyone knows, from personal experience, if a group has been denied registration as a group by GSO when submitting their application? After reviewing the form for starting a new AA group, found on the GSO website, I see no questions regarding the format of the meeting, the type of meeting it is to be, the emphasis, if any, the group will place on the steps, etc.
 
After reviewing the application for a new group, it seems improbable / impossible that General Service could deny a new group membership. It does ask what nights it will be meeting, the location, the GSR information, and what language the new group would like to have literature be sent in.  The third tradition is spelled out in its long form on the top of the application.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Blessings,
 
Brian

- - - -

FROM: Ben G. =
ljmesg@yahoo.com (ljmesg at yahoo.com)

This new group has taken the word God out of their literature. Can they still call themselves an AA group?

Hopefully AAWS will come out with a statement saying there is no affiliation with these people or this alternative movement.

Ben G.

- - - -

FROM: luvwindnwater =
luvwindnwater@yahoo.com (luvwindnwater at yahoo.com)

Tradition 3: "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."

- - - -

FROM: BaileyGC =
Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Father Dowling said, "We are agnostics." Also he said, "Who among us is not a phoney"? Bill W said, "There is freedom of thought and action." Bill  W also said, Certainly there is none that more jealously guards the members right to think, talk, and act as he wishes".
The steps are only suggested. The book is only suggested.

 

 

| 9847|9833|2014-03-06 11:59:38|Norm The Tinman|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said|

the first transatlantic cable came ashore in Newfoundland Canada in a place called Hearts Content, and forwarded on to US and other parts of North America--just saying


On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 9:29 AM, "corafinch@yahoo.com" wrote:
 
One of several fishy things about that story is the phone calls.  People who wanted to get messages from North America to Europe quickly in the 1920s sent telegrams. Just in case, I googled "first transatlantic telephone call" and came up with "London to New York, March 7th, 1926." RH must have been in the top echelon of telecommunications if he made arrangements by phone and was in Zurich on April 6th, 1926. Although . . . maybe he went to Europe on spec and made the calls from Paris? Nothing is ever going to kill that story.


| 9848|9833|2014-03-06 12:00:44|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said|
Norm,

The Newfoundland cable you are referring to was telegraph, not telephone.

The first transatlantic telegraph cable connected Valentia Island in Ireland to Heart's Content in Newfoundland. The first telegraph message was sent in 1858, but it only functioned for three weeks. Lasting telegraph connections were finally established over cables laid in 1865 and 1866.

The first transatlantic telephone calls (on the other hand) did not begin until 1926 / 1927 and were carried out by radio, not by undersea cables.

The first transatlantic underwater cable system that could carry telephone messages did not start being used until 1956.

And I think that Cora is right, that in the 1920's (and even much later on) upper-class society people like the Hazard family would have carried out things like contacting a man of Sigmund Freud's stature by writing him a letter.

Even as late as the 1960's, when I was at Oxford University, one wrote notes to people of Freud's stature. In that sort of elevated social context, it would have been considered quite rude for anyone other than a close family member to telephone someone like that, except in the case of a truly dire emergency.

Of course today, the world has changed . . . . . . in the 1960's in Oxford, even the ditchdiggers wore coats and ties. Students wore black academic gowns to attend class. When I was a child, my grandfather wore a coat and tie even when he went fishing. In the 1920's and 1930's, the posh wealthy elite like the Hazards would have made their initial contact with people like Freud and Adler by writing a letter -- and to be polite, one would have written the letter or note out long hand.

I remember one of my Oxford professors apologizing once for sending me a note which was typed instead of writing it out long hand. Of course, he typed it himself on an old beat up typewriter where the letters were all battered and fuzzy which (and I kid not) partially helped to make up for the social offense of sending me a typed note.

Or in other words, Oxford in the 1960s was a conservative place which still clung to the social conventions of the 1920s and 1930s.

Dial up Dr. Freud or Dr. Adler on your cell phone? I think not, not back in the 1920s and 1930s.

Glenn

____________________________________________________

Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said

normtinman

the first transatlantic cable came ashore in Newfoundland Canada in a place called Hearts Content, and forwarded on to US and other parts of North America--just saying

...........................................................................................

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 9:29 AM, "corafinch@yahoo.com" wrote:
One of several fishy things about that story is the phone calls.  People who wanted to get messages from North America to Europe quickly in the 1920s sent telegrams. Just in case, I googled "first transatlantic telephone call" and came up with "London to New York, March 7th, 1926." RH must have been in the top echelon of telecommunications if he made arrangements by phone and was in Zurich on April 6th, 1926. Although . . . maybe he went to Europe on spec and made the calls from Paris? Nothing is ever going to kill that story.


| 9849|9849|2014-03-06 12:15:29|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|
I believe there is a War-time letter at GSO where Bill indicates it was Shep who came with Ebby and brought Bill the James book. Dick B. has some stuff on Rowland in his Sam Shoemaker book[s], I think.  I don’t believe T. Harry was in NYC at all, so if he served on an OG Businessmen’s Committee it wouldn’t have been the NY one Bill and Rowland-III were active with -- right? There was btw more than one Stewart’s Cafeteria group (as there was more than one Stewart’s).
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: Arthur
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎4‎, ‎2014 ‎2‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


Bill and Rowland both served on the Oxford Group’s “Businessmen’s Committee” along with T Henry Williams.

 

Rowland was also supposed to be a regular attendee of the gathering of alcoholic OG members at Stewart’s Cafeteria in the early, early days. There is also some debate, but no hard evidence that I’m aware of, that it was Rowland (not Ebby) who gave Bill a copy of William James’ “Varieties of Religious Experience” when Bill was in Towns Hospital (BB pg 28).

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aliasjb@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:27 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.

Jeff B
Los Angeles



| 9850|9850|2014-03-06 12:31:09|AAHistoryLovers|History of AA in Columbus, Ohio|

From Bob = rrecovery2002 = rriley9945@aol.com (rriley9945 at aol.com)

One of my passions is researching lesser known twelve step fellowships. While doing so I stumbled upon an article from the May 12, 1960 issue of the Wilmington News-Journal in Wilmington, Ohio talking about the founder of A.A. in Columbus, Ohio. I would be happy to forward the article if this would be helpful.
 
Bob
________________________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

If you want to contact Bob, please
do NOT just hit the "REPLY" button.

That sends your message, not to Bob, but to the pending message board.

Send your request via your regular e-mail system to Bob's e-mail system at his home address, which is:

rriley9945@aol.com (rriley9945 at aol.com)


| 9851|9833|2014-03-06 12:32:23|kodom2545|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said|
Greetings,
I am not too sure how phones worked, but Rowland Hazard would have probably had the means to procure one if he needed one.

As far as his meetings with Dr. Jung, his 1919 and 1921 passports both include Switzerland, so perhaps he had more contacts there who could aid in a phone call in 1926.  Rowland was quite the traveler, to Europe, visiting in 1923, 1924, 1926, 1928 and 1929. (All primary source documented)  He also traveled to Bermuda several times.

As far as when he went to see Jung, wikipedia states:

"According to both Bluhm and Finch, these Hazard family documents clearly place Rowland in Jung's care for some months beginning in 1926 rather than 1930 or 1931."

There is documentation he went to Europe in both 1926 and 1931.  In 1931 he was traveling with his family, in 1926 it was just his wife. He arrived back in the United States from France on July 22, 1926.

Months earlier, on March 25th of 1926 he arrived back to New York from Bermuda and his name was written in as the very last entry in the passenger's list.  Did he get drunk and almost miss the ship?  Did this prompt him or his wife to seek help from Dr. Jung? One can only speculate.

I haven't been able to locate the outgoing travel documentation, only the arrivals in New York.  However, between March 25, 1926 and July 22, 1926, primary source documentation reveals that he traveled to Europe.

I would enclose Rowland's passports and the passenger lists I am referring to, but I am not sure if I can on this type of format.

Blessings,

Kyle O.
| 9852|9852|2014-03-06 12:33:37|benknutson86|Ed Webster speaker tapes?|
Being such a fan of his books (The Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, and Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities), I've also begun seeking out Ed Webster speaker tapes. So far I am aware of four recordings:

1) Speaking on the first step in 1960 as part of a Twelve Step panel at the third International Convention in Long Beach, CA. Ed's talk is about 10 minutes long. By an 'Oh, my God! Super cool!' coincidence, Richmond Walker speaks on the eleventh step in the same recording.

2) "Stools and Bottles" talk in Cleveland, OH - April 29th, 1963. This presentation is about 79 minutes. Ed also recounts how he came into AA, and a pretty funny story about the man who carried the message to him. Much of this story would later find it's way into "Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities."

3) "Stools and Bottles" talk in Chicago, IL - May 15th, 1965. This presentation is about 56 minutes long. Ed also speaks about how he came to write the Little Red Book. He also touches briefly on spending time with Dr. Bob during the Minnesota founder's day events.

and 4) Speaking on a panel of 25 speakers with 25 years or more of sobriety from sometime in 1970. This presentation is emceed  by Clarence Snyder. Ed is the last person to speak, and the recording actually cuts off about 4 minutes into his talk.

My question now is: Are there other recordings of Ed speaking? And, if so, are any of them available for download or on CD?
| 9853|9849|2014-03-06 13:17:50|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|
I don’t know where Bill first heard the story but Cebra G. gave Bill the (wrong) 1931 date, which he (mis)understood from Rowland. Cebra is also the connection between Rowland and Ebby. Also pretty much between Shep and Rowland and Bill. He was also the only one of the three messengers to Ebby who wound up sober in A.A. (though admittedly in France and his sobriety date wasn’t until 1954). Shep wasn’t an alcoholic, so far as I know, and Rowland never really got sober and never joined A.A. Btw Rowland-III was a State Senator in R.I. and a tournament tennis player, Cebra was a Broadway actor and a State Senator in Vermont, and Shep ran for Congress from NY from the district that later elected Adam Clayton Powell. Shep btw was a friend of my father and I’ve had dinner with him more than once, and Cebra’s son lived in the same college building I lived in for three overlapping years.  I have no connection with Rowland-III except drinking with his cousin Geoff-III (it’s a family nickname style) 
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: aliasjb@gmail.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎4‎, ‎2014 ‎1‎:‎32‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.

Jeff B
Los Angeles

| 9854|9852|2014-03-06 13:32:28|Bill Futral|Re: Ed Webster speaker tapes?|

Can I find the ones you mention and download? Would love to listen to them.

Have a great day unless you have made other plans.

Kind Regards,

Bill

Bill Futral
713.539.2842
bfutral@gmail.com
   

On Mar 6, 2014 2:33 PM, <benknutson86@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Being such a fan of his books (The Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, and Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities), I've also begun seeking out Ed Webster speaker tapes. So far I am aware of four recordings:

1) Speaking on the first step in 1960 as part of a Twelve Step panel at the third International Convention in Long Beach, CA. Ed's talk is about 10 minutes long. By an 'Oh, my God! Super cool!' coincidence, Richmond Walker speaks on the eleventh step in the same recording.

2) "Stools and Bottles" talk in Cleveland, OH - April 29th, 1963. This presentation is about 79 minutes. Ed also recounts how he came into AA, and a pretty funny story about the man who carried the message to him. Much of this story would later find it's way into "Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities."

3) "Stools and Bottles" talk in Chicago, IL - May 15th, 1965. This presentation is about 56 minutes long. Ed also speaks about how he came to write the Little Red Book. He also touches briefly on spending time with Dr. Bob during the Minnesota founder's day events.

and 4) Speaking on a panel of 25 speakers with 25 years or more of sobriety from sometime in 1970. This presentation is emceed  by Clarence Snyder. Ed is the last person to speak, and the recording actually cuts off about 4 minutes into his talk.

My question now is: Are there other recordings of Ed speaking? And, if so, are any of them available for download or on CD?

| 9855|9833|2014-03-06 13:35:17|corafinch|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said|
Kyle, I didn't know Rowland had been in Europe in 1929. That is fascinating. The Ancestry.com passenger lists are my only source, and they do not have that trip. Where did you find it?

There are letters clarifying what happened in Bermuda in 1926, and yes the episode was the last straw that sent him to Jung. He was there with his wife, his sister and her husband. Rowland was sent home early, in disgrace because of a drinking binge and also (here the letters are much less clear!) apparently, the revelation of infidelity. So it makes sense that he would have been added to the passenger list at the last minute. His cousin was sent instructions to pick him up at the boat and babysit him until he could be put on a train to the Stockbridge Institute for the Psychoneuroses in Massachusetts, where he had been a patient the previous summer. The cousin talked him, and his wife when she returned, into going to Jung instead.
Laura
| 9856|9823|2014-03-06 14:18:25|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|
From Mitchell K (How It Worked), Bob K (Ontario), Laurie A (England), Benny G (ljmesg), SWJ (honest 03060), and maxbott

- - - -

FROM: Mitchell K. = mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

I just had to comment on the following: "They were meant to be a straightforward, careful delineation of a simple program that worked for the first 100 members of Alcoholics Anonymous."

Can we find documentation where these so-called "first 100" members participated in this 12 Step simple program? Of course there were eventually 100 first members but where were those 12 Steps during the period they got sober? Some people seem to say that they want to "go through the steps" the way the founding members did. Where is the proof that of those who got sober from 1935 through just before the AA Basic Text was written that they went through "the steps" as that "12 Step simple program"?

Of course there are those who will bring up all the references to that "6 step program" written on a napkin by Bill in Texas. They will say Earl T. wrote about being taken through the so-called "then" 6 steps and other references. Yet, NO ONE ever mentions that any reference to this so-called six step program prior to the 1953 doesn't exist.

The AA Basic text says "here are the steps we took." Which is it? 6 Steps - 12 Steps - what? If the original members took 6 steps as Bill wrote on a napkin and Earl wrote in his story (written after 1953) how are "here are the steps we took" equal a "12 Step simple program"?

As far as changing the steps to suit certain agendas and certain bias - Any changes made which alter the steps from the original cannot be called Alcoholics Anonymous. Otherwise Narcotics Anonymous could call itself Alcoholics Anonymous as can Overeaters Anonymous etc. If someone chooses to call the god of their understanding "Goddess" or Gorf or Harold, that is their INDIVIDUAL choice. After all, the term God is a generally accepted term as some sort of Higher Power. "As we understand" opens the door to each individual member to interpret their own version.

I have seen so much hatred and denigration by so-called freethinkers against the "god-people" or "god-bound" people that their agenda is totally obvious. It isn't love and tolerance. It's the same agenda as any other anti-AA agenda. It's the same as those who shout that "we believe in choice" except when your choice doesn't fit into their choice interpretation. The same BS as the AA is only Christian or that "Being Clean means never having to say you are sober" or the secret agent bashing crowd. The same as some AA groups that say you can't join their group (cult) unless you go through the steps with one of their sponsors even if you have 30 years sobriety and were sponsored by some original member. The same as any so-called fundamentalist exclusionary philosophy demanding conformity to the Borg.

How about those groups which refuse to allow their members to "count time" if they are on certain medications and used as prescribed by their physician? I for one refuse to change my sobriety date after root canals or surgical procedures.

By radically changing the 12 Steps to fit your agenda or point of view is totally allowable. Of course you should not call yourselves Alcoholics Anonymous but Whatever Anonymous instead, saying you are using an adapted 12 Steps as all the other so-called 12 Step Fellowships have done.

I like diet pepsi cola. I also sometimes like diet coca cola. Must I demand that the pepsi cola company put at least 2 cans of diet coca cola in each 12 pack and still call the whole 12 pack "diet pepsi cola"? If it ain't all pepsi you can't call it pepsi. If I replace the cheese on a cheeseburger with a slice of tomato, can I still call it a cheeseburger?

If you want a cheeseburger, keep the cheese on it. If you want a burger with a slice of tomato on top, leave off the cheese. Just don't call the darn tomato slice burger a cheeseburger. Change is important but when I order a cheeseburger or go to a cheeseburger restaurant I expect to get a cheeseburger.

- - - -

FROM: bob k. in whitby, ontario = gurubob65@yahoo.ca (gurubob65 at yahoo.ca)

We seem to have ventured from history to politics. I would hope that we do not all elect to weigh in on the politics.

- - - -

FROM: Laurie A. = eze_kiel03 jennylaurie1@hotmail.com (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Every AA has the privilege of interpreting the program as he likes. As Bill Sees It, page 1949

... also, 'No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress.' That's all, guides to progress - not set in stone instructions.

'First there was the fire; then the words about the fire; then the arguments about the words about the fire.' (Richard Rohr).

- - - -

FROM: Benny G. = ljmesg@yahoo.com (ljmesg at yahoo.com)

Here is my take:

These movements are in the same category as Rational Recovery, Moderation Management, and the many others that have come and gone over the years dating back to the Washingtonians. Please look these other recovery movements up all "based" on our beloved AA.

The incorrect perception is that these GROUPS cannot affiliate with AA. The fact is that AA DOES NOT affiliate itself with a groups like this. It is in the preamble: "A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

AA will never be in any away affiliated with this movement so therefore the movement can call themselves anything they want but they will never be an AA Group.

You can also read the pamphlet: What Is An AA Group...It's a dandy!

You can also find out that there is no such thing as an "AA Club." Most "AA Club's" meetings are technically not even AA meetings. That is "fairly advanced" AA for another time:)

Soberingly Yours,

Benny G.

- - - -

FROM: SWJ = honest03060@yahoo.com (honest03060 at yahoo.com)

Tradition 4 precisely states (lol) "provided that as a group they have no other affiliation"
 
What I read in the article on the WSJ was in violation of this tradition as they call themselves "AA Atheist Group" -  therefore affiliation.  Also violates an action that might greatly affect AA as a whole but publicly drawing AA into the mainstream media and subjects of religion in a generic sense. And as a member of an neighboring AA group I feel I should have been consulted …. humph.

Four --

With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.

Also, in reading this article I find it a violation of Tradition 10

Ten --

No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues -- particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever. Atheism is a sectarian religion by precise terminology
 
Finally if we go back before the book here is an example of Dr. Bob taking Clarance thru the "program" as it was.

Dr. Bob:  "Young feller, do you believe in God?  Not a God, but God?"
Clarence:  "Well, what does that have to do with it?
DB:   "Young feller, this has everything to do with it.  Do you or do you not believe in God?"
Clarence: "Well, I guess I do."
DB pointed his long finger and yelled:  "There’s no guessing about it.  Either you do or you don’t"
Clarence:  "Yeah"   "I do believe in God"
DB:  "That’s fine.  Now we can get someplace."  "Get down out of that bed"
Clarence:  For what?"
DB:  You’re Gonna pray."
Clarence:  "I don’t know anything about praying."
DB:  "I don’t suppose that you do; but you get down there, and I will pray.   You can repeat it after me, and that will do for now."

Doc then took Clarence by the hand an "hauled" him out of that nice warm nest.  Clarence with his shorty hospital nightshirt and Dr. Bob with his bright Argyle socks . . .  it was a sight to behold!
 
Dr. Bob then prayed: "Jesus, this is Clarence Snyder.  He’s a drunk. 
Dr. Bob to Clarence: "Clarence!  This is Jesus.  Ask him to come into your life.  Ask Him to remove your drinking problem, and pray the He manage your life because you are unable to manage it yourself."  
 
After they concluded Dr. Bob shook Clarence’s hand an said to him, "Young feller, you’re gonna be alright."
 
Dr. Bob was right:  Clarence started the first AA meeting in Cleveland May 11, 1939, and it that soon grew to far surpass both Akron and NY with sober 'rummies.'
 
In service SWJ

- - - -

maxbott = maxbott@yahoo.com (maxbott at yahoo.com)

I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that while, yes, our AA is but "a" program.  There may be many others but this AA program that I choose to follow.

 I offer a solution that my sponsor once did, (he died 7 yrs ago with 56 yrs sobriety), This is the program for sobriety that we of AA offer.  If you do not like it – and you do have that right – you are very welcomed to go start your own Anonymous program.

I am reminded of "How it Works" -- "if" you want what we have.  There is a condition that must be addressed.


| 9857|9852|2014-03-06 17:43:22|benknutson86|Re: Ed Webster speaker tapes?|
The '63 and '65 tapes I got from the gentleman who runs www.historyofrecovery.com
The '63 tape can be purchased here: http://www.amazon.com/Webster-Minneapolis-Alcoholics-Anonymous-ClevelandOH/dp/B009RF6XS2/
He doesn't have the '65 tape listed for sale anywhere, but a person may be able to obtain it by contacting him through his web page.
----
The '60 panel with Ed and Richmond Walker can be purchased here: http://aaitems.com/twelve_steps_of_alcoholics___12_speakers_include_richmond_w__author_of_twenty_four_hours_a_day-details.aspx
----
The '70 panel was given to me by a friend. I'm not sure where he got it, but I'll ask.

In fellowship,
Ben
| 9858|9849|2014-03-06 18:28:11|Arthur|Re: Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|

Dick B in his book “The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous” (27-28) discusses James Newton and his role in the Oxford Group “business team.” I erroneously called it “business meeting.” Dick notes that T Henry Williams was an occasional participant and states that Bill W may briefly have been a member. Shep C was also involved. I made it sound too definite regarding Bill and should correct my assertion.

 

In Thomsen’s “Bill W” book he cites Bill as saying he “… could never recollect if it had been Ebby or Roland (sic) who gave him a copy of … Varieties …” The Stewarts Cafeteria where Bill, Ebby, Rowland, et al, met was supposed to be near Calvary Hall.

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Lobdell
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 11:04 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

I believe there is a War-time letter at GSO where Bill indicates it was Shep who came with Ebby and brought Bill the James book. Dick B. has some stuff on Rowland in his Sam Shoemaker book[s], I think.  I don’t believe T. Harry was in NYC at all, so if he served on an OG Businessmen’s Committee it wouldn’t have been the NY one Bill and Rowland-III were active with -- right? There was btw more than one Stewart’s Cafeteria group (as there was more than one Stewart’s).

 

Sent from Windows Mail

 

From: Arthur
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎4‎, ‎2014 ‎2‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
To: 
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

 

 

Bill and Rowland both served on the Oxford Group’s “Businessmen’s Committee” along with T Henry Williams.

 

Rowland was also supposed to be a regular attendee of the gathering of alcoholic OG members at Stewart’s Cafeteria in the early, early days. There is also some debate, but no hard evidence that I’m aware of, that it was Rowland (not Ebby) who gave Bill a copy of William James’ “Varieties of Religious Experience” when Bill was in Towns Hospital (BB pg 28).

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aliasjb@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:27 PM
To:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.

Jeff B
Los Angeles

 

| 9859|9843|2014-03-07 16:38:20|Arthur|Re: Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|

T Henry Williams (originally from Connecticut)  lived and worked in Akron. His house served as the location for Oxford Group meetings of the early mid-west AA members. The Cleveland members broke away in April 1939 and the Akron members broke away in October 1939.

 

T Henry (who was Chief Engineer for the National Rubber Machinery Co) lost his job as a consequence of the proxy fight that brought Bill W to Akron in May 1935.

 

T Henry’s participation in the Oxford Group “business team” was supposed to be “occasional.” And I can’t be certain that Bill W was definitely a member of the business team (mentioned in another AAHL email).

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wkoeritzer
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:06 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Was this is Cleveland or NYC? I thought T Henry Williams lived in Cleveland?

 

 

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone




-------- Original message --------
From: Arthur <arthur.s@live.com>
Date: 03/04/2014 11:55 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson


 

Bill and Rowland both served on the Oxford Group’s “Businessmen’s Committee” along with T Henry Williams.

 

Rowland was also supposed to be a regular attendee of the gathering of alcoholic OG members at Stewart’s Cafeteria in the early, early days. There is also some debate, but no hard evidence that I’m aware of, that it was Rowland (not Ebby) who gave Bill a copy of William James’ “Varieties of Religious Experience” when Bill was in Towns Hospital (BB pg 28).

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aliasjb@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:27 PM
To:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.

Jeff B
Los Angeles

| 9860|9860|2014-03-08 11:52:17|Glenn Chesnut|Arthur S., new edition of A Narrative Timeline|
The new revised updated version of the classic Narrative Timeline of AA History is now available. Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas) was showing it to people at the Sedona Mago Symposum on AA History two weeks ago (February 21-23, 2014) and has now made copies available on the Hindsfoot Foundation site.

(Copies are also available on Bill White's site, see under "Alcoholics Anonymous" at http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/recovery_mutual_aid_history/ ).

THERE ARE FOUR DOCUMENTS IN ALL WHICH ARE AVAILABLE ON THE HINDSFOOT SITE:
For all of them see http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

http://hindsfoot.org/aatimeline.pdf
Arthur S., A Narrative Timeline of AA History is one of the most important reference works which serious researchers into AA history need to have at hand while doing their work. In this 134-page document, Arthur gives not only an extended list of the dates and chronology of AA history, but also -- for each of these items -- careful page references to thirty of the top books on AA history and other sources which the researcher may utilize to learn more on each of these topics. In effect, it is a giant index to a huge collection of some of the best AA historical literature down through the years. And the reader can use the Adobe Acrobat search function to go quickly through the entire length of the document locating all the references to any particular person or topic.

http://hindsfoot.org/aatimeappend1.pdf
Arthur S., Counts of AA Groups and Members year by year, from 1935 to 2012, giving total number of groups and total number of members in the U.S., Canada, overses, in hospitals and prisons, loners and internationals, drawn from various AA official records and publications.

http://hindsfoot.org/aatimeappend2.pdf
Arthur S., Book Royalties Distributed year by year, from 1951 to 2012, from the sale of the Big Book, the Twelve and Twelve, AA Comes of Age, and As Bill Sees It.

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York), and Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana):  "Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation."  Adobe PDF file.  MS Word DOC file.  January 1, 2008.  Now generally accepted as the best and most accurate figures assembled to date, compiled and analyzed by three internationally recognized AA historians: one a computer scientist, one a historian at a major state university, and the third author highly skilled in preparing graphs and doing statistical analyses.
(The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. Of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year.)

http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html
Another valuable document: CHARLIE BISHOP, FIFTY BOOKS TRACING AA'S HISTORY.
Charlie Bishop, Jr., the Bishop of Books, a noted antiquarian book dealer and bibliographer, spent many years assembling a collection of 15,000 books, pamphlets, and other printed materials published by and about the A.A. movement, which became the nucleus of the world famous Chester H. Kirk Collection on Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous at Brown University. Here is Charlie's selection of what he believes to be the fifty best books to read for a good understanding of A.A. history. 




| 9861|9849|2014-03-09 12:15:11|corafinch|Re: Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|
I'm glad you cleared that up, Arthur, because I have a hard time finding things in Dick B. books. Rowland Hazard and Vic Kitchen were on the International Team, made up of New York and New Jersey men and by the looks an elite group. I don't think Bill was ever part of it. Dick tends to assemble lists of names from separate sources, so it is unclear whether those people were actually in the same place at the same time.

Do you think it is possible that Dick counted other references to "Bill W." as Bill Wilson? In the Sam Shoemaker book he only has only four mentions of "Bill Wilson" that he found in Shoemaker's diary, and they are non-specific other than the reference to his confirmation. Bill W. references can't be assumed to be Wilson. There was a Bill Wood in the NY/NJ OG (died in January 1936), also a Bill Whalen mentioned a few years earlier.
| 9862|9833|2014-03-09 12:16:06|kodom2545|Re: Why Rowland Hazard went to Carl Jung - what Clancy I. said|
Wow! Thanks Laura for filling in the details to the story! When I saw his name wrote in at the last minute, I figured it might have been something like that.

The source is the same as yours, except for the "Rowland Hazard" that traveled in 1929 (with other Hazards from Rhode Island) has his birthday listed as 1892, rather than the confirmed Rowland (1891).  I am wondering if it is an error on the part of the records keepers because the Rowland born in 1892 has a strikingly similar travel schedule as the confirmed "real" Rowland, traveling to Bermuda and Europe. 

I had ancestry on one tab, and was just writing down the dates in the post, I accidentally included 1929 to the travels we know for sure about.  However, as you can see, all the other dates are the confirmed "real" Rowland. :) 

I'm curious if some paperwork got mixed up somewhere or this is a different Rowland Hazard altogether, with a similar travel schedule. 

Blessings,

Kyle
| 9863|9843|2014-03-09 16:20:16|ron.fulkerson@comcast.net|Re: Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson|
Akron City Phone Directory 1934-35 lists: T.Henry Williams Chief Draftsman Natl. R.M. Co., 676 Palisades Drive
                                            1937-39 lists: T.Henry Williams Engr.(engineer) S.W.Harris,Inc. 676 Palisades Drive


From: "Arthur"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 7:43:13 PM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

T Henry Williams (originally from Connecticut)  lived and worked in Akron. His house served as the location for Oxford Group meetings of the early mid-west AA members. The Cleveland members broke away in April 1939 and the Akron members broke away in October 1939.

 

T Henry (who was Chief Engineer for the National Rubber Machinery Co) lost his job as a consequence of the proxy fight that brought Bill W to Akron in May 1935.

 

T Henry’s participation in the Oxford Group “business team” was supposed to be “occasional.” And I can’t be certain that Bill W was definitely a member of the business team (mentioned in another AAHL email).

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wkoeritzer
Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:06 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Was this is Cleveland or NYC? I thought T Henry Williams lived in Cleveland?

 

 

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone




-------- Original message --------
From: Arthur <arthur.s@live.com>
Date: 03/04/2014 11:55 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson



 

Bill and Rowland both served on the Oxford Group’s “Businessmen’s Committee” along with T Henry Williams.

 

Rowland was also supposed to be a regular attendee of the gathering of alcoholic OG members at Stewart’s Cafeteria in the early, early days. There is also some debate, but no hard evidence that I’m aware of, that it was Rowland (not Ebby) who gave Bill a copy of William James’ “Varieties of Religious Experience” when Bill was in Towns Hospital (BB pg 28).

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aliasjb@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:27 PM
To:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Roland Hazard and Bill Wilson

 

 

Where and when did Bill hear the story of Roland Hazard and Carl Jung?  Was Hazard a speaker at the New York Oxford group?  There is a clear relationship between Roland Hazard and Ebby, but no mention that I know of of Ebby's telling the story to Bill.


Jeff B
Los Angeles



| 9864|9864|2014-03-10 17:42:59|toronto_joe_c|de Tocqueville's Democracy in America and Bill Wilson|

The voice of the minority:

Who knows more about Bill Wilson’s relationship with the book Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville (1805 – 1859)? This work is in two volumes. I have Volume II from my library and Volume I is unavailable. In Concept V Wilson leans heavily on de Tocqueville’s observations and philosophy as far as what makes for a healthy society and what the relationship is between the majority and societies minorities. Wilson attributes his ideas about the dangers of an angry, hasty or apathetic majority and maybe his ideas about the dangers of both tyranny of the majority and tyranny of the minority.

I would like to get a broader context of de Tocqueville’s writing on this topic and I am curious about what literalness or artistic liberty Wilson exercised.

If anyone can point me to the chapter in question or any third-party account of Wilson’s interest in the book, I would be grateful. Does anyone have a copy of the chapter or essay to which Bill Wilson refers? Does anyone know about Wilson’s relationship to the book or if anyone else has written about it?

Recently we had a heated, more political than historical (as Bob K cautioned), discussion on minority rights and liberties pertaining to agnostic groups and their interpretation of our Twelve Steps without God. I am surprised no one referenced a clear example of Bill Wilson’s intent and feelings in this regard from AA Comes of Age - being as god-free AA Twelve Steps have been with us for over ½ a century, much to Wilson’s enjoyment and approval.


In the mid 1950s AA’s reach extended to alcoholics around the world. Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA, was quite clear about liberty for individual AA groups in his “Chapter on Unity” from A. A. Comes of Age. On page 81 he talks about Buddhists who said that they would like to be part of AA, but also would like to replace the word “god” with “good” so that the practice of the Steps would be compatible with their atheistic belief. In 1957, Bill Wilson writes:

“To some of us, the idea of substituting ‘good’ for ‘God’ in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of A.A.’s message. But here we must remember that A.A.’s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made A.A. available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written.” Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pg. 81


I don’t mean to re-kindle that heated discussion but it is an example of Wilson’s inclination toward tolerance and liberty for alcoholic minorities who otherwise feel excluded, if not for some form of accommodation.

If anyone can direct me accordingly in the de Tocqueville arena, I would appreciate it.

Many thanks,

 

Joe C.


| 9865|9865|2014-03-11 11:50:59|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] de Tocqueville's Democracy in America and Bill|
Bilol was referred to Tocqueville by Bern Smith and Bern’s assistant Mik3e Alexande5r loaned him his copy, but as was typical with Bill (I believe), he got more from the conversations with Mike (aqnd Bern)than from the text. The summary in George Wilson Pierson’s work on Tocqueville probably represents current6 (1960-62) informed understanding of Tocqueville; certainly when I asked Michael Alexander about Bill’s understanding of the book (and Michael’s), it sounded very much like Pierson in his lectures when I was an undergraduate just about that time (graduated inn 1961). As for the context of Democracy in America when written  and published (1835, 1840), read Pierson’s Tocqueville in America (a convenient if long summary).
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: omyword@yahoo.com
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎March‎ ‎10‎, ‎2014 ‎8‎:‎43‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


The voice of the minority:

Who knows more about Bill Wilson’s relationship with the book Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville (1805 – 1859)? This work is in two volumes. I have Volume II from my library and Volume I is unavailable. In Concept V Wilson leans heavily on de Tocqueville’s observations and philosophy as far as what makes for a healthy society and what the relationship is between the majority and societies minorities. Wilson attributes his ideas about the dangers of an angry, hasty or apathetic majority and maybe his ideas about the dangers of both tyranny of the majority and tyranny of the minority.

I would like to get a broader context of de Tocqueville’s writing on this topic and I am curious about what literalness or artistic liberty Wilson exercised.

If anyone can point me to the chapter in question or any third-party account of Wilson’s interest in the book, I would be grateful. Does anyone have a copy of the chapter or essay to which Bill Wilson refers? Does anyone know about Wilson’s relationship to the book or if anyone else has written about it?

Recently we had a heated, more political than historical (as Bob K cautioned), discussion on minority rights and liberties pertaining to agnostic groups and their interpretation of our Twelve Steps without God. I am surprised no one referenced a clear example of Bill Wilson’s intent and feelings in this regard from AA Comes of Age - being as god-free AA Twelve Steps have been with us for over ½ a century, much to Wilson’s enjoyment and approval.


In the mid 1950s AA’s reach extended to alcoholics around the world. Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA, was quite clear about liberty for individual AA groups in his “Chapter on Unity” from A. A. Comes of Age. On page 81 he talks about Buddhists who said that they would like to be part of AA, but also would like to replace the word “god” with “good” so that the practice of the Steps would be compatible with their atheistic belief. In 1957, Bill Wilson writes:

“To some of us, the idea of substituting ‘good’ for ‘God’ in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of A.A.’s message. But here we must remember that A.A.’s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made A.A. available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written.” Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pg. 81


I don’t mean to re-kindle that heated discussion but it is an example of Wilson’s inclination toward tolerance and liberty for alcoholic minorities who otherwise feel excluded, if not for some form of accommodation.

If anyone can direct me accordingly in the de Tocqueville arena, I would appreciate it.

Many thanks,

 

Joe C.




| 9866|9864|2014-03-11 11:57:04|James R|Re: de Tocqueville's Democracy in America and Bill Wilson|
De Tocqueville's work (both volumes) can be found online at

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/toc_indx.html

I think the chapter you are looking for is Volume I, Chapter XV, Unlimited Power of the Majority in the United States, and Its Consequences.

Jim C



From: "omyword@yahoo.com"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:21 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] de Tocqueville's Democracy in America and Bill Wilson

 
The voice of the minority:
Who knows more about Bill Wilson’s relationship with the book Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville (1805 – 1859)? This work is in two volumes. I have Volume II from my library and Volume I is unavailable. In Concept V Wilson leans heavily on de Tocqueville’s observations and philosophy as far as what makes for a healthy society and what the relationship is between the majority and societies minorities. Wilson attributes his ideas about the dangers of an angry, hasty or apathetic majority and maybe his ideas about the dangers of both tyranny of the majority and tyranny of the minority.
I would like to get a broader context of de Tocqueville’s writing on this topic and I am curious about what literalness or artistic liberty Wilson exercised.
If anyone can point me to the chapter in question or any third-party account of Wilson’s interest in the book, I would be grateful. Does anyone have a copy of the chapter or essay to which Bill Wilson refers? Does anyone know about Wilson’s relationship to the book or if anyone else has written about it?
Recently we had a heated, more political than historical (as Bob K cautioned), discussion on minority rights and liberties pertaining to agnostic groups and their interpretation of our Twelve Steps without God. I am surprised no one referenced a clear example of Bill Wilson’s intent and feelings in this regard from AA Comes of Age - being as god-free AA Twelve Steps have been with us for over ½ a century, much to Wilson’s enjoyment and approval.

In the mid 1950s AA’s reach extended to alcoholics around the world. Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA, was quite clear about liberty for individual AA groups in his “Chapter on Unity” from A. A. Comes of Age. On page 81 he talks about Buddhists who said that they would like to be part of AA, but also would like to replace the word “god” with “good” so that the practice of the Steps would be compatible with their atheistic belief. In 1957, Bill Wilson writes:

“To some of us, the idea of substituting ‘good’ for ‘God’ in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of A.A.’s message. But here we must remember that A.A.’s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made A.A. available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written.” Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pg. 81

I don’t mean to re-kindle that heated discussion but it is an example of Wilson’s inclination toward tolerance and liberty for alcoholic minorities who otherwise feel excluded, if not for some form of accommodation.
If anyone can direct me accordingly in the de Tocqueville arena, I would appreciate it.
Many thanks,
 
Joe C.



| 9867|9823|2014-03-11 12:15:45|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Non-AA Groups Still Referring to Themselves as AA|
From Mitchell K., ljmesg, toronto joe, John Steele, and Tom Pasek

- - - -

FROM: Mitchell K. = mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

"We seem to have ventured from history to politics. I would hope that we do not all elect to weigh in on the politics."

How many AA members know anything about the Order of the Sons of Temperance, The Oxford Group, The Washintonians etc? Most don't know about them because in the real world, they are just footnotes in largely unread history books. AA has a declaration of Responsibility in which it states that we want the hand of AA to always be there whenever anyone, anywhere reaches out.

I am sure that the members of the Sons of Temperance, Oxford Group and Washingtonians also stated a similar feeling of responsibility towards those who came after them.

One of the keys to history is the premise that we do not forget where we came from so that we may never be relegated to the status of a footnote in some obscure or largely unread textbook. Weighing in on the politics so-to-speak is part of maintaining that remembering where we came from.

If every AA member maintains his or her own, individual AA program why was there a need for the book outlining the experiences of what worked? Some people are now calling for the abolishment of anonymity because AA no longer needs it. Of course AA is no secret society and AA members shouldn't be stigmatized by membership. However, most forget because they chose not to delve into the politics of the AA Traditions that the purpose of anonymity is not so much for secrecy as it is the spiritual foundation of all of AA's Traditions making every member equal. No AA member is greater or less than another. No AA member is more of an alcoholic because they drank sterno than one who drank light beer. Anonymity says we are alcoholics if we say we are with no pre-conditions or conformity.

As far as we oppose no one? Try to read a non-Conference Approved piece of literature in many meetings and see the reaction. Most AA members are led to believe that Conference Approval means that AA disapproves of all other literature and that literature has no place in AA. I guess AA's founding members who got sober with all that non-Conference-Approved literature did it all wrong (that includes the First Edition of the AA Big Book).

Did we not oppose the Frames of Mind Company? Carry The Message, Inc? The folks in Germany, Mexico? Of course AA says it was protecting PROPERTY. AA seems to forget there money, power, property and prestige leads us to.

The politics, controversy etc IS part of AA's history and without looking at it and addressing it and promptly correcting the wrongs goes against what AA supposedly stands for. That is unless and when we were wrong promptly admitted it and taking an inventory is really not part of AA or only applicable to individual members and not to AA as a whole.

I guess if people enjoy the feeling of their heads being buried in the sand they won't mind if we ignore what is wrong with some things. History is filled with people who said ex post facto that they knew nothing of what was going on. They knew but chose to ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room because they didn't want to get involved with the politics. History books and footnotes are filled with these types of living with blinders on rose colored glasses.

- - - -

FROM: ljmesg = ljmesg@yahoo.com (ljmesg at yahoo.com)

The fact of the matter is that this "controversy" really has no historical answer. It is NOT a historical issue. Typical to any AA issue, people cut and paste sections of our writings out of context than misinterpret the information to form erroneous conclusions. The most famous example of this is in Tradition eleven where people always quote "this is a program of attraction rather than promotion." Of course the proper context for these words "IS AT THE LEVEL OF RADIO, PRESS AND FILMS." This is one of the most egregious misnomers in AA today. This "no god" group does not use AA conference approved literature. They use their own literature. How could anyone in their right mind consider them to be anyway affiliated with AA let alone be AA. It is not a cheeseburger! Again, to cite historical information and quotes is a waste of time here. If you keep it simple, the Higher Power will give you the answers. We need to quit overt thinking this. It is so non complex.

- - - -

FROM: toronto_joe_c = omyword@yahoo.com (omyword at yahoo.com)

Getting back to AA History for a moment, a story comes from  AA Comes of Age. In the mid 1950s AA's reach extended to alcoholics around the world.  Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA, was quite clear about liberty for individual AA groups in his "Chapter on Unity" from A. A. Comes of Age.  On page 81 he talks about Buddhists who said that they would like to be part of AA, but also would like to replace the word "god" with "good" so that the practice of the Steps would be compatible with their atheistic belief. In 1957, Bill Wilson writes:

"To some of us, the idea of substituting 'good' for 'God' in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of A.A.'s message. But here we must remember that A.A.'s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made A.A. available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written."

Bill W didn't "invited" these groups to start their own fellowship. He celebrated the imaginative adaptation of his Twelve Steps and encouraged us to embrace them as rights bearing equals in AA. I expect the next generation of AA will have the same loving, fearless and welcoming attitude as Bill W. That is, if our generation doesn't drop the ball out of our fearful, intolerant finger tips, first.

. . . . .

Our next generation of AA will understand that unity is quite the opposite to uniformity, that a language or interpretation that is unfamiliar to us in not automatically dangerous, intolerable or threatening. Agnostic groups and their liberal rituals will be as proud an example to them of our wide gateway, as LGBTQ meetings, women's groups, young peoples meetings and African Americans. All of these minorities were thought to threaten AA by people like us who loved our fellowship and wanted to protect it.

Bill W celebrated the artistic liberty of interpreting his Step in any way that might help one more drunk and he was proud if they wanted to call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous. The question is, will the next generation have a chance to see AA through without us lousing it up?

. . . . .

The next generation of AA will see agnostic AA and all it's liberal rituals and variations as a proud example of AA's wide gateway, in the same way we celebrate LGBTQ, women's groups, young people and African Americans. At one time many of us who love AA were afraid and threatened by each of these minority groups. What is unfamiliar is not automatically dangerous, threatening or  wrong. Nor should the familiar be granted sacred status. At least that's what Bill W told us.

- - - -

FROM: John Steele = johnny_moonowl = j.e.steele@live.com (j.e.steele at live.com)

"The AA Basic text says "here are the steps we took." Which is it? 6 Steps - 12 Steps - what? If the original members took 6 steps as Bill wrote on a napkin and Earl wrote in his story (written after 1953) how are "here are the steps we took" equal a "12 Step simple program"?"

I have always thought that the twelve steps were developed as a result of having taken inventory in what they did and were codified as part of the process of writing the book. I've always imagined that prior to having written them, the process was an oral tradition and not codified per se. Is this generalization of history wrong?
 
Inquiring minds want to know!
John E. Steele

- - - -

FROM: tompasek = tp@bak.rr.com (tp at bak.rr.com)

"God as we understand Him." The italicized portion of this phrase has served as the glue binding the various religious thoughts woven throughout our membership. Most importantly, our books refer to spirituality rather than religion. It can be argued that Buddhists are nontheistic, but not atheistic. Buddha said that gods exist, but he did not believe that they were necessarily wiser than the mortals.

To take the words from AA Comes of Age as a waiver from our commonly practiced principles is a real stretch, especially when addressed while looking at five of our Twelve Traditions in the long form:

Tradition Two: "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience." (Italics added)

Tradition Three: Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation." (I believe that this means that we cannot have an exclusively Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist… group, but certainly members of any faith are welcome to join us.)

Tradition Four: "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount." (A variation to one of our basic tenants as written in Steps Two and Three certainly rises to the level of consultation with "the trustees of the General Service Board.")

Tradition Five: "Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." (This may be the magic bullet for Buddhists [and similar belief systems]. If the alcoholic perceives the group as a "spiritual entity," then non-theists or atheists who can achieve that level of acceptance have met the requirement in Step Two, "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves…" [in this case the group] "…could restore us to sanity."

Tradition Ten: "No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever." (I believe that we are simply saying that if you want to find sobriety through the gift of AA, this is the prescription. However, if you want sobriety through some other path, that is fine, but it is not AA.)

Just my two cents worth.

Tom Pasek, CEO
Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC
7850 White Lane, Suite E-260
Bakersfield, California 93309
661.654.9116 (Phone)
tom@shaggyd.com



| 9868|9868|2014-03-11 15:14:15|AAHistoryLovers|75th Anniversary of the 1st ed. of The Big Book|
From: Bbsgsonj = bbsgsonj@aol.com (bbsgsonj at aol.com)

Northern New Jersey AA is throwing a great celebration from "the home of the Big Book." Speakers include AA Archivist Michelle Mirza, and other Archivists/Historians including John B., Bill S., and Mitchell K.

Event being recorded by Just Love Audio and Barefoot Bill. This is a once in a lifetime event and we cordially invite all our AA friends wherever they might be.
_________________________________________________

Northern New Jersey Intergroup Area 44 presents
A 75th Anniversary Celebration
of the First Edition of The Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous
Saturday evening, April 12, 2014
at the Raritan Valley Community College
Branchburg, New Jersey
from 5:00 to 9:00pm


Guest Speakers will include AA Historians, Archivists, past and present Area Delegates, and other Trusted Servants. A One-time event you won’t want to miss.

For more information email archives@nnjaa.org

5:30 – 5:35 pm
Opening Remarks
Debbie T., Planning Committee Chair
Lester G., Area 44 Chairperson
Jim S., Intergroup Chairperson

5:35 – 6:15 pm
PANEL: The Story of How the 75th Came to Be

The Start of the Idea - Lester G. & John B., Area 44 Archivists
Passing it Through the Archives Committee - Brenda D., Past Area 44 Archives Chair
Sending It On To GSO in NY - Wayne R., Past Delegate, Panel 61
Becoming a Conference Agenda Item - Billy N., Class B Trustee, GS Board
Informing the Area 44 Fellowship - Linda K-K., Current Delegate, Panel 63
The Printing of the Book - Greg T., Publishing Director, AAWS

6:15 – 6:45 pm
Bill W. – Primary Author and the Early Influences - John B., Associate Archivist

7:15 – 7:45
Archival Presentation & Recordings - Michelle Mirza, GSO Archivist

7:45 – 8:30 pm
The Book Project and How it Came to Pass - Bill S., A.A. Historian

8:30 – 8:45 pm
Meetings and a Fellowship called Alcoholics  Anonymous - Mitchell K., A.A. Historian

8:45 – 9:00 pm
Closing Remarks and Cutting of the Cake
Lester G., Area 44 Chairperson
Jim S., Intergroup Chairperson

http://www.nnjaa.org/events/images/BB_75th_Anniversary_Celebration.pdf





| 9869|9869|2014-03-14 20:25:26|Sue Smith|Bill W. quote "We need to preserve the richness of our heritage to e|
Greetings friends,

Anyone know precisely which source of AA literature or speech Bill W. was quoted to say, “We need to preserve the richness of our heritage to ensure the future" ?

Love & Service, 
Sue
| 9870|9870|2014-03-14 20:26:06|elginsv|Thomas E. Powers|
I just came across a book titled"First Questions on The Life Of The Spirit' by Thomas E. Powers(1959). A friend/Archivist confirmed affirmatively my question of is this 'the' Tom Powers? A couple of other questions might be, "What is the Layman's Movement Tom refers to?"I was struck by the fact that he didn't mention Alcoholics Anonymous, or membership, but he did say membership of the Layman's Movement was 1600 ( in 1941), about the same as AA would have been in 41'?                                ElginSteve
| 9871|9871|2014-03-15 10:10:44|AAHistoryLovers|New book on Frank Buchman by Philip Boobbyer|
From: Laurie A. = eze_kiel03 = jennylaurie1@hotmail.com (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Philip Boobbyer, The Spiritual Vision of Frank Buchman (Pennsylvania State University Press, 2013).

============================================
'Perhaps his most lasting influence is in Alcoholics Anonymous, which he played a key part in founding. He believed that life always needed moral discipline, and that everyone should have a daily "quiet time" in which they could examine , and feed, their conscience. For Buchman, our conscience is the primary stage on which we encounter the Holy Spirit. Although a committed Christian he was keen to avoid limiting God's word to formal religious or church circles. He recognised the work of the Holy Spirit in other religious traditions, in a way that anticipated some later writers ... Buchman was a complex figure, enigmatic and charismatic in equal measure. A follower remarked that life around him was a mixture of Christmas Day and Judgement Day ...'

(from the March 14 London Church Times review of The Spiritual Vision of Frank Buchman; by Philip Boobyer; Pennsylvania State University Press; 978-0-271-05980-8)
============================================

Philip Boobbyer is Senior Lecturer and Deputy Head in the School of History, at the University of Kent, at Canterbury in England.

CONTENTS OF THE BOOK
Chapter 1: Origins
Chapter 2: Guidance
Chapter 3: Personal Work
Chapter 4: Theological Questions
Chapter 5: Strategy and Organization
Chapter 6: Politics and Ideology

============================================
http://www.kent.ac.uk/history/staff/profiles/boobbyer.html
Philip Boobbyer read Modern Languages at Trinity College Cambridge (1982-86), before doing an MA in Russian Areas Studies at Georgetown University, Washington DC (1986-88), and a PhD in the Department of Government at the London School of Economics (1989-1992).

He is particularly interested in the history of ideas, and in religious and moral experience in historical context. His main research has been on 20th century Russian history, and his publications include S.L.Frank: The Life and Work of a Russian Philosopher 1870-1950 (Athens, Ohio, 1995; Moscow 2001) and Conscience, Dissent and Reform in Soviet Russia (London, 2005). In the last of these, he argued that an alternative moral and spiritual culture emerged in late Soviet Russia that contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union. He has also worked on aspects of 20th century religious history.

Dr Boobbyer teaches courses on European, Russian and Cold War history. He has an interactive approach to teaching in which students are encouraged to contribute to seminars as much as possible. He would be interested in supervising PhD students on Russian and European (including British) intellectual and religious history.

Outside the university, Boobbyer is involved in Initiatives of Change [the present name given to the Oxford Group movement]. He attends an Anglican church in Canterbury.
============================================


| 9872|9872|2014-03-15 10:15:22|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Thomas E. Powers|
Perhaps his son-in-law Matt Dingle (a member of this group) can tell us for sure.
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: artisanconcrete@yahoo.com
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎14‎, ‎2014 ‎11‎:‎26‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


I just came across a book titled"First Questions on The Life Of The Spirit' by Thomas E. Powers(1959). A friend/Archivist confirmed affirmatively my question of is this 'the' Tom Powers? A couple of other questions might be, "What is the Layman's Movement Tom refers to?"I was struck by the fact that he didn't mention Alcoholics Anonymous, or membership, but he did say membership of the Layman's Movement was 1600 ( in 1941), about the same as AA would have been in 41'?                                ElginSteve

| 9873|9872|2014-03-15 14:38:13|Matt Dingle|Re: Thomas E. Powers|
The Layman's Movement started in early1940s. You can find more about its history through Wainwright House, Rye NY. — the Layman's Movement retreat house. (J.C. Penny and J.D. Rockefeller were early supporters of Layman's Movement.) Eugene Exman joined in the 40s — the religious and spiritual circle that surrounded AA revolved around Exman: Peale, Fosdick, Heard, Huxley, Trueblood, The Ourslers, Tom Powers, etc. Many, if not all of the men just mentioned were members or guests at Wainwright House. 
Powers wrote First Questions for the Layman's Movement and although he only mentions AA a few times the entire book is filled with AA wisdom. In the introduction he wrote: "In my own search, many people and many groups have given me help, much of which I'm not in a position to acknowledge here. There's one group of spiritual pioneers on the earth at this time to whom I owe the most. They know who they are, and they know how much I owe." The one group of spiritual pioneers was AA, of course.   
I recommend purchasing the book — later entitled Invitation to a Great Experiment: http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/products2.htm or through used book sources.
Any other questions and you can contact me directly: (845)-887-6575.
Matt D.


On Saturday, March 15, 2014 1:15 PM, J. Lobdell wrote:
 
Perhaps his son-in-law Matt Dingle (a member of this group) can tell us for sure.
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: artisanconcrete@yahoo.com
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎14‎, ‎2014 ‎11‎:‎26‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


I just came across a book titled"First Questions on The Life Of The Spirit' by Thomas E. Powers(1959). A friend/Archivist confirmed affirmatively my question of is this 'the' Tom Powers? A couple of other questions might be, "What is the Layman's Movement Tom refers to?"I was struck by the fact that he didn't mention Alcoholics Anonymous, or membership, but he did say membership of the Layman's Movement was 1600 ( in 1941), about the same as AA would have been in 41'?                                ElginSteve



| 9874|9870|2014-03-15 14:38:54|corafinch|Re: Thomas E. Powers|
My edition is dated 1979, after the book was revised and re-titled Invitation To a Great Experiment. This one doesn't seem to contain the term "layman's group" but does discuss groups of people who used the book, under the original title First Questions on the Life of the Spirit, as a workbook for prayer/study meetings. Early in the book, Powers mentions AA several times as the spiritual fellowship of choice for those fortunate (his word) to be alcoholics. Powers' book must already have been in existence when the Great Experiment groups formed, so the "layman's group" couldn't have been them. If in your edition Powers does not say anything about AA by name, maybe he does mean AA when he says layman's group.

By the way, I've read a number of letters written by Tom Powers to a non-AA between 1963 and 1968. He certainly seemed to regard himself as a loyal AA at the time, and to have no other spiritual loyalties except the Episcopal Church.
| 9875|9870|2014-03-16 13:07:09|wkoeritzer|Re: Thomas E. Powers|
I have a copy of Chsrles Knippel thesis entitled " SAMUEL M SHOEMAKERS THEOLOGICAL INFLUENCE ON WILLIAM G WILSON YWELVE SYEP SPIRITUAL PROGRAM OF RECOVERY. could not find a copy to buy so got it from the library and copied it. 


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
| 9876|9870|2014-03-16 13:12:52|Matt Dingle|Re: Thomas E. Powers|
First Questions was published in 1959 by Harper. This edition mentions the Layman's Group. Actually, a survey went out to many of its members inquiring about what their first questions on the life of the spirit would be and Powers answers most of the them in the book.
The 1979 edition was through Doubleday and all mention of Layman's Movement were removed. By then there were several "first questions" groups — groups that formed around the study of the book. The lasted into the 80s, mostly in Kansas City.   
(In my opinion) Powers remained faithful to AA the rest of his life.
Matt


On Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:38 PM, "corafinch@yahoo.com" wrote:
 
My edition is dated 1979, after the book was revised and re-titled Invitation To a Great Experiment. This one doesn't seem to contain the term "layman's group" but does discuss groups of people who used the book, under the original title First Questions on the Life of the Spirit, as a workbook for prayer/study meetings. Early in the book, Powers mentions AA several times as the spiritual fellowship of choice for those fortunate (his word) to be alcoholics. Powers' book must already have been in existence when the Great Experiment groups formed, so the "layman's group" couldn't have been them. If in your edition Powers does not say anything about AA by name, maybe he does mean AA when he says layman's group.

By the way, I've read a number of letters written by Tom Powers to a non-AA between 1963 and 1968. He certainly seemed to regard himself as a loyal AA at the time, and to have no other spiritual loyalties except the Episcopal Church.


| 9877|9821|2014-03-16 19:04:26|rrecovery2002|Re: Old New York City Meeting Lists?|
Little slow in getting back to you. NYC meetings were listed in the  New York Metropolitan Area lists.
 
Here is a site where you can access copies of 5 of them. Have you found any others?
 
http://www.aaseny.org/archives/welcome.html        On the left there is something that says "Early meeting books"
 
 
Bob
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: honest03060
To: AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 2:10 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Old New York City Meeting Lists?

 
Are copies of NYC meetings how far back they go and how can I get copies?

Thanks
SWJ
| 9878|9870|2014-03-20 14:17:27|elginsv|Re: Thomas E. Powers|
Matt & Cora- Thank you so much for your informative replies. I hope I in no way was misconstrued to insinuate Tom P. had intentionally distanced himself from AA. The 1941 population of the Movement (1600) jumped out at me, the fellowship would have been approx. the same. Thanks-       ElginSV
| 9879|9879|2014-03-20 18:42:37|AAHistoryLovers|Has there been litigation over refusal to list atheistic meetings?|
From: Dave S. = PMDS@aol.com (PMDS at aol.com)

A few years ago there was a fair amount of publicity when the Toronto Intergroup refused to list agnostic/non believer meetings.  The same thing happened recently in Vancouver.  It is my understanding that there are somewhere between 100 and 150 such meetings that are listed by various Intergroups in various places.

I'm hearing that this refusal to list these types of meetings is becoming quite an issue.

I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about any litigation that has occurred as a result of an Intergroup's refusal to list meetings.

Dave S.


| 9880|9879|2014-03-21 11:14:24|LESLIE COLE|Re: Has there been litigation over refusal to list atheistic meeting|
Hello David:
 
If you wish to know more about this Canadian issue, the person who knows all the details is Roger C. who can be contacted on a website he monitors called AAAgnostica.com
 
That 'denial to list' is again being reviewed and Roger can tell you everything you want to know.
 
Best regards,
 
Les C
elsietwo@msn.com  (Personal ID)
 
 

 

From: hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 18:42:01 -0700
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Has there been litigation over refusal to list atheistic meetings?

 
From: Dave S. = PMDS@aol.com (PMDS at aol.com)

A few years ago there was a fair amount of publicity when the Toronto Intergroup refused to list agnostic/non believer meetings.  The same thing happened recently in Vancouver.  It is my understanding that there are somewhere between 100 and 150 such meetings that are listed by various Intergroups in various places.

I'm hearing that this refusal to list these types of meetings is becoming quite an issue.

I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about any litigation that has occurred as a result of an Intergroup's refusal to list meetings.

Dave S.



| 9881|9879|2014-03-24 11:26:58|grault|Re: Has there been litigation over refusal to list atheistic meeting|
It's AAAgnostica.org   (not ".com")
| 9882|9879|2014-03-28 17:06:21|club4492002|Re: Has there been litigation over refusal to list atheistic meeting|
 On a lighter note, back in he "80s, Seattle AAers were protesting the inclusion in the area meeting schedules of the "Bare Facts Group", a clothing optional meeting. As Intergroup Chairman at the time, I attended a meeting & reported back to the membership that it was a legitimate AA meeting that just happened to have a few persons attending sans clothing. Surprisingly enough, the fuss died down with only a few grumblings.
| 9883|9879|2014-03-29 15:15:30|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Has there been litigation over refusal to list atheistic meeting|
From: threeeyedtoad@gmail.com (threeeyedtoad at gmail.com)

For those interested, it appears the URL is http://aaagnostica.org/
 
 
| 9884|9884|2014-04-04 12:19:59|Tom Hickcox|Draft Traditions|
Was there a draft of the Traditions or are the articles in the early
GrapeVines as close as we can get?

Tommy in Danville, Ky
| 9885|9884|2014-04-06 14:27:19|J. Blair|Re: Draft Traditions|
Tommy wrote

Was there a draft of the Traditions or are the articles in the early
GrapeVines as close as we can get?

I've never seen anything earlier than Bill's responses to problems via
articles in the GV.
The articles later became the core ideas in the Traditions.
| 9886|7671|2014-04-06 14:27:52|hdmozart|Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress|
Jenny or Laurie,

I'm wondering if I 'mis-remembered' or heard a 'mis-quote' of this line from the BB:

""Outsiders are sometimes shocked when we burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past.", "The Family Afterward, ~pp 132

Either that or I heard it on a recorded talk - 

Larry Holbrook
| 9887|7671|2014-04-07 09:59:27|Tom Hickcox|Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress|
On 4/4/2014 18:03, email@LaurenceHolbrook.com wrote:
Jenny or Laurie,

I'm wondering if I 'mis-remembered' or heard a 'mis-quote' of this line from the BB:

""Outsiders are sometimes shocked��when we burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past.", "The Family Afterward, ~pp 132

Either that or I heard it on a recorded talk -��

Larry Holbrook



I found this in my notes on profanity:

Bill W. on Profanity

See also abusive language.�� Use only words found in BB.

Since the audience for the book [Big Book] is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully eliminated . . . Profanity, even when mild, rarely contributes as much as it detracts.�� It should be avoided.

���������� Bill Wilson, Guidelines for stories in Big Book, 2d Edition


Tommy in Danville, Ky.


| 9888|7671|2014-04-07 09:59:55|Aalogsdon|Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress|
The word profanity is not used in the big book.  It is discussed in EXPERIENCE STRENGTH AND HOPE as follows:  ".....profanity, even when mild rarely contributes
as much as it detracts.  It should be avoided."  Also in the April 1944 Central Bulletin is the following:  "We believe that obscene or off-color stories as well as foul language
are entirely out of place in our meetings which are opened and closed with a prayer.  It is scarcely believable that such incidents are customary  in any group and we feel sure that abuses will be corrected by the leaders of the offended and offending groups."

In DR. BOB and the good Oldtimers page 224 is written 
"And if he was sitting in a meeting and a man used bad language, Dr. Bob would say, 'You have a very good lead, 
young man, but it would be more effective if you cleaned it up a bit.'


-----Original Message-----
From: email
To: AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Sun, Apr 6, 2014 2:28 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress

 
Jenny or Laurie,

I'm wondering if I 'mis-remembered' or heard a 'mis-quote' of this line from the BB:

""Outsiders are sometimes shocked when we burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past.", "The Family Afterward, ~pp 132

Either that or I heard it on a recorded talk - 

Larry Holbrook
| 9889|7671|2014-04-08 10:36:44|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress|
The AA Structure Handbook for Great Britain, in a guideline about Members' Personal Conduct (pp82-5) suggests, 'Your group may wish to discuss and agree, at a group conscience meeting, upon a clear statement to display , for example, "Bad language often offends ... but its absence never does".' Patronising, sanctimonious nonsense. AA is not about bourgeois morality; it is about staying sober. Gratuitous swearing is offensive but colorful language in someone's natural speech patterns allows for spontaneity and lively sharing. Let's not 'get perfect by Thursday' (Tradition Three).  
 

From: aalogsdon@aol.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 19:58:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress

 
The word profanity is not used in the big book.  It is discussed in EXPERIENCE STRENGTH AND HOPE as follows:  ".....profanity, even when mild rarely contributes
as much as it detracts.  It should be avoided."  Also in the April 1944 Central Bulletin is the following:  "We believe that obscene or off-color stories as well as foul language
are entirely out of place in our meetings which are opened and closed with a prayer.  It is scarcely believable that such incidents are customary  in any group and we feel sure that abuses will be corrected by the leaders of the offended and offending groups."

In DR. BOB and the good Oldtimers page 224 is written 
"And if he was sitting in a meeting and a man used bad language, Dr. Bob would say, 'You have a very good lead, 
young man, but it would be more effective if you cleaned it up a bit.'


-----Original Message-----
From: email
To: AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Sun, Apr 6, 2014 2:28 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress

 
Jenny or Laurie,

I'm wondering if I 'mis-remembered' or heard a 'mis-quote' of this line from the BB:

""Outsiders are sometimes shocked when we burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past.", "The Family Afterward, ~pp 132

Either that or I heard it on a recorded talk - 

Larry Holbrook


| 9890|7671|2014-04-08 10:37:29|Page one-sixty-four|Re: Source of quote: profanity is not a sign of spiritual progress|
Nope; not from the big book. The word "profanity does not appear in the Big Book or the 12 and 12.  However, by sweet inference, we may deduce the principle is so.  I tell sponsees who have a real "sailor's mouth" they can use any word they can find in the Big Book. :)  Also, when people tell me they use profanity to relate to the newcomer, I tell them "What they are sending to the newcomer is that this sort of language is part of recovery; that this is what ________ years looks like.  You may relate to some, but who will you "turn off?" and is your "freedom" to speak how you wish really worth that?"
On Sunday, April 6, 2014 5:30 PM, Tom Hickcox wrote:
 
On 4/4/2014 18:03, email@LaurenceHolbrook.com wrote:
Jenny or Laurie,

I'm wondering if I 'mis-remembered' or heard a 'mis-quote' of this line from the BB:

""Outsiders are sometimes shocked��when we burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past.", "The Family Afterward, ~pp 132

Either that or I heard it on a recorded talk -��

Larry Holbrook



I found this in my notes on profanity:

Bill W. on Profanity

See also abusive language.�� Use only words found in BB.

Since the audience for the book [Big Book] is likely to be newcomers, anything from the point of view of content or style that might offend or alienate those who are not familiar with the program should be carefully eliminated . . . Profanity, even when mild, rarely contributes as much as it detracts.�� It should be avoided.

���������� Bill Wilson, Guidelines for stories in Big Book, 2d Edition


Tommy in Danville, Ky.




| 9891|9891|2014-04-09 14:12:41|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Readings|
What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?
| 9892|9892|2014-04-10 12:17:17|AAHistoryLovers|Original working manuscript of the Big Book once more up for sale|
April 2014: the original working manuscript of the Big Book is now once more up for sale.

From Jim M = silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com (silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com)

Ken R., the present owner, purchased it at Sotheby's in 2007 for just under a million dollars. He wanted to get it out to the world, so "The Book That Started It All" was published and made available thanks to Hazelden Publishing.

He has now decided to sell the manuscript. Asking price: $8,000,000. Also being offered with the sale is a second edition Big Book signed by Bill Wilson and four LP albums that originally sold with the manuscript at Sotheby's auction.

Ken R. has asked me to post it on my site, so for further information and details, please go to my index page:
http://www.silkworth.net/


===============================================

AAHL message no. 5131:

The Printer's Manuscript that Bill had kept was the actual annotated multilith that was taken to Cornwall Press in early February 1939. It contained all of the last-minute edits with handwritten notes and changes from Bill, Hank P., and a few others (how about some things from the book publisher, too? anything can be possible). This original copy has great provenance; one greatly historical item that was saved over the years.

Lois retained it after Bill died and gifted it (1980s?) to Barry L. as a token of her affection for his friendship. A few say that it was a collateral compensation for the low AAWS payment for his work on "Living Sober," or, more likely his efforts to help write "Lois Remembers."

Someone performed conservation on this manuscript at some point, too--- it may have been deacidified and encapsulated by Barry's family or immediately prior to the Sotheby's Auction House offering in 2004. Bill P. of Minnesota (rest his soul) was one AA archivist who verified its authenticity when it was placed on the auction block, and the sellers (Barry's heirs) accepted a telephoned bid from someone in California for 1.58 million dollars. So, it stayed in private hands.

In 2007, it returned to the auction block (Sotheby's) and sold for just under a million dollars. The buyers made a few online announcements of pending availability for excerpts, but I hadn't seen much more about its accessibility since the months after its last purchase.

It remains in private hands.

Rick, Illinois



| 9893|9891|2014-04-10 12:19:37|Robert Stonebraker|First readings of the 12 Steps at AA meetings|

 

 

Jenny or Laurie asked: 

 

What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?

 

This excerpt is from page 9 of, “How AA Came To Los Angeles.”  (Southern California Archives Committee, August 1, 1986.)

 

“He asked if anybody present would like to read a few pages.  Nobody volunteered.  So, Mort G. opened the book to Chapter 5 and started reading, Rarely have we seen a person fail who . . .” 

 

Now an excerpt from page 10:

 

She happened to be house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main Street.      Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J. Rented a large room on the Mezzanine for $5.00.  this was the first public meeting of AA.  It was on a Friday night at 8:00 pm in March of 1940.  It was open to all who wished to stop drinking. Ted Le Berthon a columnist on the Los Angeles Daily News, wrote about the meeting in his column.   And it was in the heart of skid row.

 

So this may answer your question, but who can be certain this was the very first reading of the Twelve Steps at an AA meeting?

 

Bob S., Richmond, IN       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This meeting took place in the C

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

| 9894|9892|2014-04-11 11:27:34|Joe Chisholm|Re: Original working manuscript of the Big Book once more up for sal|
I heard that Barry Leach (Do You Think You're Different?, Living Sober) was in possession of the original manuscript before his death and that his intentions were to gift it back to AA upon his death. He was a close friend to Lois wasn't he?

Can anyone speak to this? I think he spoke of the manuscript at his 1985 World Conference talk in Montreal, which I understand was one of his last recorded talks.

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:17:39 PM, AAHistoryLovers wrote:
 
April 2014: the original working manuscript of the Big Book is now once more up for sale.

From Jim M = silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com (silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com)

Ken R., the present owner, purchased it at Sotheby's in 2007 for just under a million dollars. He wanted to get it out to the world, so "The Book That Started It All" was published and made available thanks to Hazelden Publishing.

He has now decided to sell the manuscript. Asking price: $8,000,000. Also being offered with the sale is a second edition Big Book signed by Bill Wilson and four LP albums that originally sold with the manuscript at Sotheby's auction.

Ken R. has asked me to post it on my site, so for further information and details, please go to my index page:
http://www.silkworth.net/


===============================================

AAHL message no. 5131:

The Printer's Manuscript that Bill had kept was the actual annotated multilith that was taken to Cornwall Press in early February 1939. It contained all of the last-minute edits with handwritten notes and changes from Bill, Hank P., and a few others (how about some things from the book publisher, too? anything can be possible). This original copy has great provenance; one greatly historical item that was saved over the years.

Lois retained it after Bill died and gifted it (1980s?) to Barry L. as a token of her affection for his friendship. A few say that it was a collateral compensation for the low AAWS payment for his work on "Living Sober," or, more likely his efforts to help write "Lois Remembers."

Someone performed conservation on this manuscript at some point, too--- it may have been deacidified and encapsulated by Barry's family or immediately prior to the Sotheby's Auction House offering in 2004. Bill P. of Minnesota (rest his soul) was one AA archivist who verified its authenticity when it was placed on the auction block, and the sellers (Barry's heirs) accepted a telephoned bid from someone in California for 1.58 million dollars. So, it stayed in private hands.

In 2007, it returned to the auction block (Sotheby's) and sold for just under a million dollars. The buyers made a few online announcements of pending availability for excerpts, but I hadn't seen much more about its accessibility since the months after its last purchase.

It remains in private hands.

Rick, Illinois





| 9895|9868|2014-04-11 11:28:04|royslev|Re: 75th Anniversary of the 1st ed. of The Big Book|

Happy Birthday Big Book! You came on to the Fellowship (which was later named after you) on April 10th 1939 and, as far as I know, have stayed sober ever since!


So congratulations on your 75th A.A. Anniversary!


And, by the way, my heartfelt thanks, because you saved my life when the opinions of other human powers let me down.


Roy L.  a.k.a. "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

| 9896|9892|2014-04-11 11:28:36|johnlawlee|Re: Original working manuscript of the Big Book once more up for sal|

There's little evidence the copy is a "manuscript", let alone the "Printer's Manuscript".  It's a "working copy", which may or may not have been delivered to Cornwall Press.  That's why Sotheby's didn't advertise the copy as a manuscript. That would have been fraud.   In Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age (169-70), Bill indicates that Henry Parkhurst transferred all the corrections in his clear handwriting to one of the mimeographs, and that copy was delivered to the printer. Even Hazelden doesn't represent the copy as the Printer's Copy. The reproduction published by Hazelden contains many alterations which DIDN'T make their way into the First Printing.   The Printer's Copy, like the printing plates, have been lost. 

John Lee

Pittsburgh

| 9897|9892|2014-04-11 11:29:04|Jim M.|Re: Original working manuscript of the Big Book once more up for sal|
I exchanged emails with Ken R., the owner of the Original Working Manuscript. He notified me that he would be going to the vault where it is kept for preservation and security reasons. I asked that he take digital photos of various parts of the Original Working Manuscript he owns and then send them to me so that I can add those photo’s to this page: http://silkworth.net/KenR/index.html or possibly creating a new page for the photo’s.



I will keep you up to date about the digital photos of the Manuscript as well as where they are posted on silkworth.net. I, personally, am looking forward to seeing the photos of the Manuscript.



Enjoying this great weather here in the midlands of North Carolina . . .





Yours in service,

Warmest regards,

Jim M.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 9898|9891|2014-04-12 11:20:37|John Barton|Re: First readings of the 12 Steps at AA meetings|
The first "public meeting" of AA (not in a member's home) took place in September of 1939 when the NY group rented a room in Steinway Hall. The second public meeting took place when the NJ Group rented space in the South Orange Community Center in October 1939. Perhaps the excerpt should read "first public meeting of AA in Los Angeles" so as to not confuse or put forth information which might be later misquoted or misapplied. (Source....Lois Remembers, and Lois' Diary)

What it was like and what REALLY happened.....

John B
On Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:19 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote:
 
 
 
Jenny or Laurie asked: 
 
What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?
 
This excerpt is from page 9 of, “How AA Came To Los Angeles.”  (Southern California Archives Committee, August 1, 1986.)
 
“He asked if anybody present would like to read a few pages.  Nobody volunteered.  So, Mort G. opened the book to Chapter 5 and started reading, Rarely have we seen a person fail who . . .” 
 
Now an excerpt from page 10:
 
She happened to be house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main Street.      Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J. Rented a large room on the Mezzanine for $5.00.  this was the first public meeting of AA.  It was on a Friday night at 8:00 pm in March of 1940.  It was open to all who wished to stop drinking. Ted Le Berthon a columnist on the Los Angeles Daily News, wrote about the meeting in his column.   And it was in the heart of skid row.
 
So this may answer your question, but who can be certain this was the very first reading of the Twelve Steps at an AA meeting?
 
Bob S., Richmond, IN       
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This meeting took place in the C
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


| 9899|9891|2014-04-12 12:03:29|John Barton|Re: First readings of the 12 Steps at AA meetings|
The first "public meeting" of AA (not in a member's home) took place in September of 1939 when the NY group rented a room in Steinway Hall. The second public meeting took place when the NJ Group rented space in the South Orange Community Center in October 1939. Perhaps the excerpt should read "first public meeting of AA in Los Angeles" so as to not confuse or put forth information which might be later misquoted or misapplied. (Source....Lois Remembers)

What it was like and what REALLY happened.....

John B
On Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:19 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote:
 
 
 
Jenny or Laurie asked: 
 
What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?
 
This excerpt is from page 9 of, “How AA Came To Los Angeles.”  (Southern California Archives Committee, August 1, 1986.)
 
“He asked if anybody present would like to read a few pages.  Nobody volunteered.  So, Mort G. opened the book to Chapter 5 and started reading, Rarely have we seen a person fail who . . .” 
 
Now an excerpt from page 10:
 
She happened to be house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main Street.      Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J. Rented a large room on the Mezzanine for $5.00.  this was the first public meeting of AA.  It was on a Friday night at 8:00 pm in March of 1940.  It was open to all who wished to stop drinking. Ted Le Berthon a columnist on the Los Angeles Daily News, wrote about the meeting in his column.   And it was in the heart of skid row.
 
So this may answer your question, but who can be certain this was the very first reading of the Twelve Steps at an AA meeting?
 
Bob S., Richmond, IN       
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This meeting took place in the C
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


| 9900|9900|2014-04-12 12:10:35|AAHistoryLovers|4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer|
From: Barbted1@aol.com (Barbted1 at aol.com)

I am curious about the Big Book story which emphasizes Acceptance. Clearly the title of the story and page numbers have changed ... and the title has been altered from the original "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" to "Acceptance was the Answer," but I am a interested in the true story of how close this story came to being dropped. There is a local member who insists it was by only a few votes this story lived to see another edition.

The Acceptance paragraph changed my life, and I believe each word in our book is divinely inspired ... Is there any source to get the true, unfiltered, unbiased, complete story about this beautiful, inspirational passage, and the discussion about its inclusion in the 4th edition? I just find it so odd, if acceptance is the answer .... how it could have even been considered to get the boot?

Thanks.


| 9901|9891|2014-04-13 11:40:19|Steve Osborne|Re: First readings of the 12 Steps at AA meetings|
The question was 
"What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?"  
The answer that was provided Bob S is correct based on my research.
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 11, 2014, at 3:46 PM, John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

The first "public meeting" of AA (not in a member's home) took place in September of 1939 when the NY group rented a room in Steinway Hall. The second public meeting took place when the NJ Group rented space in the South Orange Community Center in October 1939. Perhaps the excerpt should read "first public meeting of AA in Los Angeles" so as to not confuse or put forth information which might be later misquoted or misapplied. (Source....Lois Remembers, and Lois' Diary)

What it was like and what REALLY happened.....

John B
On Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:19 PM, Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@comcast.net> wrote:
 
 
 
Jenny or Laurie asked: 
 
What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?
 
This excerpt is from page 9 of, “How AA Came To Los Angeles.”  (Southern California Archives Committee, August 1, 1986.)
 
“He asked if anybody present would like to read a few pages.  Nobody volunteered.  So, Mort G. opened the book to Chapter 5 and started reading, Rarely have we seen a person fail who . . .” 
 
Now an excerpt from page 10:
 
She happened to be house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main Street.      Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J. Rented a large room on the Mezzanine for $5.00.  this was the first public meeting of AA.  It was on a Friday night at 8:00 pm in March of 1940.  It was open to all who wished to stop drinking. Ted Le Berthon a columnist on the Los Angeles Daily News, wrote about the meeting in his column.   And it was in the heart of skid row.
 
So this may answer your question, but who can be certain this was the very first reading of the Twelve Steps at an AA meeting?
 
Bob S., Richmond, IN       
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This meeting took place in the C
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


| 9902|9891|2014-04-13 11:41:22|Charles Knapp|Re: First readings of the 12 Steps at AA meetings|
As long as we are correcting facts....................the first public  meeting in L.A. was held in April 1940 not March.  I base this on the fact that Mort Joseph's letter to New York was dated March 21, 1940 and Ruth Hock's reply was dated March 26, 1940.  It would take  a small miracle for Mort to do the things he claimed he did in just a couple days to pull of a Friday March 29, 1940 date.

Copies of both letters can be found in the GSO Archives and in the LA  Central Office archives. Wally P. also talks about this in his book "But, For The Grace Of God" stating on page 114.

I have said before the whole story about this founding moment in AA history in LA is clouded in controversy.  This just one more fact that doesn't add up in the story of how AA came to LA.

Charles from Wisconsin



From: John Barton
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] First readings of the 12 Steps at AA meetings

 
The first "public meeting" of AA (not in a member's home) took place in September of 1939 when the NY group rented a room in Steinway Hall. The second public meeting took place when the NJ Group rented space in the South Orange Community Center in October 1939. Perhaps the excerpt should read "first public meeting of AA in Los Angeles" so as to not confuse or put forth information which might be later misquoted or misapplied. (Source....Lois Remembers, and Lois' Diary)

What it was like and what REALLY happened.....

John B
On Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:19 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote:
 
 
 
Jenny or Laurie asked: 
 
What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?
 
This excerpt is from page 9 of, “How AA Came To Los Angeles.”  (Southern California Archives Committee, August 1, 1986.)
 
“He asked if anybody present would like to read a few pages.  Nobody volunteered.  So, Mort G. opened the book to Chapter 5 and started reading, Rarely have we seen a person fail who . . .” 
 
Now an excerpt from page 10:
 
She happened to be house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main Street.      Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J. Rented a large room on the Mezzanine for $5.00.  this was the first public meeting of AA.  It was on a Friday night at 8:00 pm in March of 1940.  It was open to all who wished to stop drinking. Ted Le Berthon a columnist on the Los Angeles Daily News, wrote about the meeting in his column.   And it was in the heart of skid row.
 
So this may answer your question, but who can be certain this was the very first reading of the Twelve Steps at an AA meeting?
 
Bob S., Richmond, IN       
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This meeting took place in the C
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




| 9903|9900|2014-04-13 11:42:15|wkoeritzer|Re: 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer|
The Doctor involved in the Acceptance is considered just a drug addict by some. AA seems as a whole to be less tolerate of dually addicted or at lesst of talking about it IMHO. The title change speak for itself. I love that story. The doctor that wrote also wrote that he hated that his story caused disunity. He is dead now. Great question



Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: AAHistoryLovers
Date: 04/12/2014 1:10 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer


 

From: Barbted1@aol.com (Barbted1 at aol.com)

I am curious about the Big Book story which emphasizes Acceptance. Clearly the title of the story and page numbers have changed ... and the title has been altered from the original "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" to "Acceptance was the Answer," but I am a interested in the true story of how close this story came to being dropped. There is a local member who insists it was by only a few votes this story lived to see another edition.

The Acceptance paragraph changed my life, and I believe each word in our book is divinely inspired ... Is there any source to get the true, unfiltered, unbiased, complete story about this beautiful, inspirational passage, and the discussion about its inclusion in the 4th edition? I just find it so odd, if acceptance is the answer .... how it could have even been considered to get the boot?

Thanks.


| 9904|9891|2014-04-13 18:36:38|Stephen Gentile|Re: First readings of the 12 Steps at AA meetings|
Greetings History Lovers,

The question is First Recored Instances of the Steps AND Traditions being read at the start of the meeting. I do not see a valid answer as of yet. 
The original Question should be answered with a meeting after The Traditions were first published in the April 1946 AA Grapevine under the title Twelve Points to Assure Our Future (AA 12+12) and were formally adopted at AA's First International Convention in 1950.

Thanks for all the other information though.

Steve G in NJ 

On Apr 13, 2014, at 2:40 PM, "Steve Osborne" <steveo4660@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

The question was 
"What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?"  
The answer that was provided Bob S is correct based on my research.
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 11, 2014, at 3:46 PM, John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

The first "public meeting" of AA (not in a member's home) took place in September of 1939 when the NY group rented a room in Steinway Hall. The second public meeting took place when the NJ Group rented space in the South Orange Community Center in October 1939. Perhaps the excerpt should read "first public meeting of AA in Los Angeles" so as to not confuse or put forth information which might be later misquoted or misapplied. (Source....Lois Remembers, and Lois' Diary)

What it was like and what REALLY happened.....

John B
On Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:19 PM, Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@comcast.net> wrote:
 
 
 
Jenny or Laurie asked: 
 
What are the first recorded instances of the Steps and Traditions being read at the start of  AA meetings, given that the Steps were not widely available till the 1940s and the Traditions until the 1950s?
 
This excerpt is from page 9 of, “How AA Came To Los Angeles.”  (Southern California Archives Committee, August 1, 1986.)
 
“He asked if anybody present would like to read a few pages.  Nobody volunteered.  So, Mort G. opened the book to Chapter 5 and started reading, Rarely have we seen a person fail who . . .” 
 
Now an excerpt from page 10:
 
She happened to be house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main Street.      Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J. Rented a large room on the Mezzanine for $5.00.  this was the first public meeting of AA.  It was on a Friday night at 8:00 pm in March of 1940.  It was open to all who wished to stop drinking. Ted Le Berthon a columnist on the Los Angeles Daily News, wrote about the meeting in his column.   And it was in the heart of skid row.
 
So this may answer your question, but who can be certain this was the very first reading of the Twelve Steps at an AA meeting?
 
Bob S., Richmond, IN       
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This meeting took place in the C
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


| 9905|9905|2014-04-21 09:14:24|irishkenj|Bill W. and The Catholic Total Abstinence Union|
A friend and I visited the archives at St. Charles Borromeo Seminary here in Philadelphia yesterday to look at material collected about Monsignor John W. Keogh who was long-time president of The Catholic Total Abstinence Union. In two letters we found from 1955 & 1958, Msgr. Keogh mentions a 5 hour meeting with Bill Wilson in his rectory. In the letter from 1958 he writes, "I had the opportunity to meet the early Buchmanites and the AA, and Bill Wilson, founder of AA whom often I have met, who once spent five hours interviewing us in my rectory". 

In the 12 boxes of archives we went through there were no details on the 5 hour "interview" or other meetings with Bill. I'm wondering if anyone here has come across any correspondence between Bill W. and Msgr. Keogh or any documents that might have more information about their relationship or discussions.

Thanks! Ken 
| 9906|9906|2014-04-21 09:14:40|Chuck Parkhurst|Mel B Celebrates his 63rd anniversary today|

Many thanks Mel for what you have contributed to Alcoholics Anonymous and for

staying sober for 63 years, one day at a time.

In Service With Gratitude

 

Chuck Parkhurst

 

 

| 9907|9907|2014-04-21 09:14:58|kochbrian2249|Some of Our Early NY Pioneers.|

Greetings all,


I am hoping to find some more information on Horace Popsy Maher, Harold Sears, and Ray Campbell.  Middle names, approx. ages when early members, family members/wives names, occupations etc.  I am attempting to locate their final resting places and any more information would be helpful. 


Brian

kochbrian@hotmail.com


| 9908|9906|2014-04-23 15:19:23|Roger Connor|Re: Mel B Celebrates his 63rd anniversary today|
Mel B and another fellow did a series of tapes on AA History.  Anybody know where I can get them?
Roger


On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Chuck Parkhurst <ineedpage63@cox.net> wrote:
 

Many thanks Mel for what you have contributed to Alcoholics Anonymous and for

staying sober for 63 years, one day at a time.

In Service With Gratitude

 

Chuck Parkhurst

 

 


| 9909|9909|2014-04-23 15:21:34|schaberg43|The Second Sedona Symposium on AA History|

We are planning to hold next year’s “Symposium on AA History” in Sedona, AZ, from February 27th to March 1st (Friday evening through Sunday noon).

 

In order to have the widest and deepest representation on our agenda, we would like to invite any AA historian who has been engaged in primary research and who would like to make a presentation on their findings at this gathering to send us a brief outline of their proposed topic (title and perhaps six bullet points) for consideration.

 

For your presentation to be considered for the 2015 agenda, it must be sent to jaaystinnett@gmail.com before Friday, May 30, 2014.

 

Thank you and we look forward to seeing many of you next February in Sedona!

| 9910|9910|2014-04-23 15:23:22|AAHistoryLovers|Recordings now available: Sedona Mago Symposium|
The recordings of the talks at the 2014 Sedona Mago Symposium on AA History are now available at

http://sedonarecoveryseries.org/

They are available at $4.99 each, or $19.99 for all nine.

This contribution will be used to help defray some of the expenses of next year's 2015 symposium.

============================================
001 Uncovering Rowland Hazard
by Cora Finch

"Uncovering the True Story of Rowland Hazard and Dr. Jung." The date when Rowland Hazard actually went for psychoanalysis with the psychiatrist Carl Jung in Switzerland (the Hazard family correspondence points to 1926 instead of 1931), and an attempt to work out more of what happened in the years afterwards.

============================================
002 Whatever happened to the Oxford Group
by Jay Stinnett

The century-long history of the Oxford Group. How it began (the Keswick Convention in 1908 and what followed), and how the OG transformed itself into Moral Re-Armament in 1938, and into Initiatives of Change in 2001. The positive role it played in helping to heal Europe after World War II, and in the eventual creation of today's European Economic Community.

============================================
003 What did they really say
by Mike Fitzpatrick from Phoenix, Arizona

His audio archive is possibly the world’s largest collection of recordings of the Twelve Step pioneers and their legacy over the decades.

============================================
004 What were those two early AA meetings like:
Early AA Meetings in New York and Akron, a Snapshot from May of 1938
by Gail Lacroix and Bill Schaberg

Glenn Chesnut also spoke in this panel discussion, but his talk did not record properly. A short printed transcript of his talk can be read online however -- "AA and Oxford Group Meetings in Akron & Cleveland: 1938-1942" -- at http://hindsfoot.org/akronmeet.doc

A longer and more detailed version of that talk can also be read online -- Glenn F. Chesnut, "A.A. Meetings in Akron and Cleveland 1938-1942: a combination of elements drawn from the Oxford Group, frontier revivalism, Emmet Fox, and the Upper Room" -- at http://hindsfoot.org/akronmeet2.doc

============================================
005 In from the cold
by Glenn Chesnut

In from the Cold: Bill Wilson's Meeting with Father Ed Dowling. What Father Ed talked about when he met Bill W. for the first time at the AA clubhouse at 334-1/2 West 24th St. in New York City in December of 1940. The issue of pain and suffering: instead of the approach seen in Matt Talbot's program of deliberate self-punishment, or in Emmet Fox's New Thought ideas, Father Dowling presented Bill W. with the very different view given in the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola (this was the work upon which both Father Dowling's and Sister Ignatia's spirituality was based). The two Battle Standards (Las Dos Banderas) in the spiritual war described in the Spiritual Exercises: Pride vs. Humility.

Also the concept of humility in the Christ Hymn in Philippians 2:3-11, and Matthew 5:6 in the Sermon on the Mount ("blessed are those who hunger") which stressed humility rather than perfectionism. The way we receive divine guidance in Father Dowling's Jesuit spirituality is through our inner feelings and emotions: "consolations" vs. "desolations."

============================================
006 The New York Atheist
by William Schaberg

"Jim Burwell -- The New York Atheist, Our Most Unreliable AA Historian." Bill is currently writing a work called "The Big Book: The Creation of Alcoholics Anonymous." Bill is known to many as the author of one of the essays at the beginning of the printed version of the original manuscript "The Book that Started It All."

============================================
007 The Akron Pamphlets
by Gail La Croix

"The Akron Pamphlets: Ohio's Response to the Big Book." Gail started the AA Archives in Akron, helped secure Dr. Bob's house for AA, and set up the first National AA Archives Workshop in Akron in 1996.

============================================
008 Show me the money
by Kevin Hanlon

"Show Me The Money! Tall Tales About Bill Wilson and A.A. Finances." Kevin Hanlon from New York City and Dan Carracino from Laguna Beach, California were the director/producers of the wonderful feature-length documentary film Bill W.

============================================
009 Archival treasures
by Sally Corbett and Paul Cleary

Sally Corbett is Executive Director at the Stepping Stones Foundation and is in charge of their archives. She did a B.A. in Political Science with a minor in Art History at the State University of New York at Albany.

Paul Cleary is a Past Trustee, and was Chairman of the Archives Committee. He is working on a book on young people in AA. He is a therapist -- LCSW and MSW -- from San Diego.

============================================

The  Sedona Mago AA History Symposium was held on February 21-23, 2014 at Sedona, Arizona (which is located in the high desert about halfway between the Grand Canyon and Phoenix). For some photos of the conference center see:

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/sedona2014.html


| 9911|9911|2014-04-23 15:24:54|Chuck Parkhurst|FW: Correction Mel B's anniversary|

Glenn…….typo…..he had 64 years on 4/15/14

 

From: Chuck Parkhurst [mailto:ineedpage63@cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:49 AM
To: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: Correction Mel B's anniversary

 

Members,

 

I shortchanged Mel.  Mel actually had 64 years

on 4/15/14.  His contributions to our fellowship

and it’s preservations are too numerous to count.

 

In Service With Gratitude

 

Chuck Parkhurst

 

 

 

| 9912|9906|2014-04-24 05:00:01|Bill|Re: Mel B Celebrates his 63rd anniversary today|

It’s an AA history CD set by Mel B. & George T.  Just go to www.justloveaudio.com & search under “Mel”.  Thanks & God bless.

 

                                Just Love,

                                Barefoot Bill

 

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Connor
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:58 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Mel B Celebrates his 63rd anniversary today

 

 

Mel B and another fellow did a series of tapes on AA History.  Anybody know where I can get them?

Roger

 

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Chuck Parkhurst <ineedpage63@cox.net> wrote:

 

Many thanks Mel for what you have contributed to Alcoholics Anonymous and for

staying sober for 63 years, one day at a time.

In Service With Gratitude

 

Chuck Parkhurst

| 9913|9900|2014-04-24 06:30:31|Arthur|Re: 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer|

Dr Paul O’s story was originally titled “Bronze Moccasins” when first printed in the in the May 1975 Grapevine. A Grapevine Editor (Paula C - not Dr Paul) changed the title of the story when it was incorporated into the 3rd edition Big Book. An interview with him was published in the July 1995 Grapevine. It is very interesting. A portion of the Q/A is listed below:

 

“GV: Do you think that your story might help those who are dually addicted?

 

Dr. Paul: I think it does. I think the story makes clear the truth that an alcoholic can also be an addict, and indeed that an alcoholic has a constitutional right to have as many problems as he wants! But I also think that if you're not an alcoholic, being an addict doesn't make you one. The way I see it, an alcoholic is a person who can't drink and who can't use drugs, and an addict is a person who can't use drugs and can't drink. But that doesn't mean that every AA meeting has to be open to a discussion of drugs if it doesn't want to. Every meeting has the right to say it doesn't want drugs discussed. People who want to discuss drugs have other places where they can go to talk about that. And AA is very open to giving the Steps and Traditions to other groups who want to use them. I know this from my own experience, because I wrote to the General Service Office and got permission to start Pills Anonymous and Chemical Dependency Anonymous. I did that when I was working in the field of chemical dependency. We started groups but I didn't go to them because I get everything I need from AA. I don't have any trouble staying away from talking about drugs, and I never introduce myself as an alcoholic/addict.

 

I'm annoyed — or maybe irritated is a better word — by the people who keep insisting that AA should broaden to include drugs and addictions other than alcohol. In fact I hear it said that AA should change its name to Addicts Anonymous. I find that a very narrow-minded view based on people's personal opinions and not on good sense. History tells us that the Washingtonians spread themselves so thin they evaporated. Jim B. says the greatest thing that ever happened in AA was the publication of the Big Book, because it put in writing what the program was and made it available all over the world. So wherever you go it's the same program. I don't see how you could change the program unless you changed the book and I can't see that happening.

 

GV: It's a question of singleness of purpose?

 

Dr. Paul: That singleness of purpose thing is so significant. It seems to be working; why would we change it? I can't think of any change that would be an improvement.”

 

Cheers

Arthur

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wkoeritzer
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:03 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer

 

 

The Doctor involved in the Acceptance is considered just a drug addict by some. AA seems as a whole to be less tolerate of dually addicted or at lesst of talking about it IMHO. The title change speak for itself. I love that story. The doctor that wrote also wrote that he hated that his story caused disunity. He is dead now. Great question

 

 

 

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone




-------- Original message --------
From: AAHistoryLovers <hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com>
Date: 04/12/2014 1:10 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer


 

From: Barbted1@aol.com (Barbted1 at aol.com)

I am curious about the Big Book story which emphasizes Acceptance. Clearly the title of the story and page numbers have changed ... and the title has been altered from the original "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" to "Acceptance was the Answer," but I am a interested in the true story of how close this story came to being dropped. There is a local member who insists it was by only a few votes this story lived to see another edition.

The Acceptance paragraph changed my life, and I believe each word in our book is divinely inspired ... Is there any source to get the true, unfiltered, unbiased, complete story about this beautiful, inspirational passage, and the discussion about its inclusion in the 4th edition? I just find it so odd, if acceptance is the answer .... how it could have even been considered to get the boot?

Thanks.

 

 

| 9914|9900|2014-04-24 06:31:17|grault|Re: 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer|
It's my favorite story in the BB also!   I head Dr. Paul O. speak several times.  He once said, in response to a question from the audience, that (as is the case with most magazines, newspapers, etc) he had not chosen or supplied the "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" title for his story, that someone who apparently was an editor did it.
My understanding is that the title was changed simply because so many addicts were pointing to the title as justification for their extensive or frequent discussion of their drug addiction.

Continued protection of A.A.'s "singleness of purpose" is important.  The idea is based on protecting "identification."  Many alcoholics simply don't "identify," or feel part of the essential common grouping, with drug addicts, sex addicts, overeaters, and the myriad other forms of addiction.  (Treatment centers, and now many uninformed A.A. members, speak of the "disease of addiction," but for our purposes that's really akin to telling the National Organization for Women (N.O.W.) that it's really the "National Organization for Humans.")

A.A. membership is limited to those having a desire to stop "drinking" (Trd. 3 short form), meaning, at the time it was created, that A.A. should be open to "all who suffer from alcoholism." (Trd. 3 long form). Being a drug addict or a sex addict etc does not qualify (or disqualify) anyone for A.A. membership.  See the A.A. pamphlet "Problems Other than Alcohol."

So if the original title of the story was misleading people on an important point of A.A., I understand why it was changed.
| 9915|9915|2014-04-24 06:32:28|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Some of Our Early NY Pioneers.|
I believe “Popsy” is Horace Rudolph Maher, b. April 17 or 19, 1894, either in Roanoke VA or in WV, d. August 1972, buried at Long Island National Cemetery in Farmingdale, as a Sergeant in WW1.
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: kochbrian@hotmail.com
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎April‎ ‎21‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎14‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


Greetings all,


I am hoping to find some more information on Horace Popsy Maher, Harold Sears, and Ray Campbell.  Middle names, approx. ages when early members, family members/wives names, occupations etc.  I am attempting to locate their final resting places and any more information would be helpful. 


Brian

kochbrian@hotmail.com




| 9916|9915|2014-04-24 06:33:32|J. Lobdell|Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Some of Our Early NY Pioneers.|
Harold Wellesley Sears was b. October 23 1896 and was employed by the U S Navy in 1942 in NYC: the signature on his Draft Card seems to match that in the first BB sold -- as does Horace Maher’s signature (matching his in the first BB sold). Maher was b. in Bluefield WV. I have no idea when Harold Sears died or where. He had a son Richard W. Sears in 1929, who may have been the one who died in Broadalbin, Fulton Co., NY in 2011?
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
From: kochbrian@hotmail.com
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎April‎ ‎21‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎14‎ ‎PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
 


Greetings all,


I am hoping to find some more information on Horace Popsy Maher, Harold Sears, and Ray Campbell.  Middle names, approx. ages when early members, family members/wives names, occupations etc.  I am attempting to locate their final resting places and any more information would be helpful. 


Brian

kochbrian@hotmail.com




| 9917|9900|2014-04-24 06:53:06|John Moore|Re: 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer|
​Barefootsworld has text of an interview with the late Dr Paul O from the Grapevine July 1995, but at that time the title of the story in BB had not been changed.  His story first published in the GV was entitled  "Bronzed Moccasins".  Dr Paul got sober same approx time and place as I did, So Calif  1971.  He had 27 years sober at time of this interview which puts it at about 1998.  It is an interesting interview to read.

John M
Burlington VT

"the Grapevine published it with the title "Bronzed Mocassins" and an illustration of a pair of bronze mocassins. Eventually it was put in the Big Book, but the title was changed, and my guess is that they wanted to show that an alcoholic could be a professional and be an addict, but that wouldn't make him not an alcoholic. It worked well but maybe it overshot the mark, and now one of the most uncomfortable things for me is when people run up to me at a meeting and tell me how glad they are the story is in the book. They say they've been fighting with their home group because their home group won't let them talk about drugs.

So they show their group the story and they say, "By God, now you'll have to let me talk about drugs." And I really hate to see the story as a divisive thing. I don't think we came to AA to fight each other"

<http://www.barefootsworld.net/aadrpaul1995.html>

| 9918|9900|2014-04-24 06:53:47|Bob M|Re: 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer|

Let us remember that the motion to create the 1st edition of the Big Book passed by only one vote. The committee voting on which stories to maintain was not mammoth and so even a “few votes” would be a substantial win that is even if your “local member” has his facts right.

 

“Acceptance was the Answer” is the third title for this work. It appeared in the AA Grapevine as “Bronzed Moccasins.” The problem with the interim title in my locale seemed to be that it was read as “Alcoholic-Addict” rather than “Alcoholic, Addict” and this was a source of disunity.

 

I like his story but also like to contrast the acceptance part with Bill W.’s “What Is Acceptance” AA Grapevine article which states in part “It is always worthwhile the consider how grossly that good word acceptance can be misused. It can be warped to justify nearly every brand of weakness, nonsense, and folly.” Maybe you can then understand why the story I most miss is “The Professor and the Paradox” which was removed from the 3rd edition.

 

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:10 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 4th ed. Big Book - Acceptance Was the Answer

 

 

From: Barbted1@aol.com (Barbted1 at aol.com)

I am curious about the Big Book story which emphasizes Acceptance. Clearly the title of the story and page numbers have changed .... and the title has been altered from the original "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" to "Acceptance was the Answer," but I am a interested in the true story of how close this story came to being dropped. There is a local member who insists it was by only a few votes this story lived to see another edition.

The Acceptance paragraph changed my life, and I believe each word in our book is divinely inspired ... Is there any source to get the true, unfiltered, unbiased, complete story about this beautiful, inspirational passage, and the discussion about its inclusion in the 4th edition? I just find it so odd, if acceptance is the answer .... how it could have even been considered to get the boot?

Thanks.

 

 




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| 9919|9892|2014-04-24 06:54:07|ckbudnick|Re: Original working manuscript of the Big Book once more up for sal|
There is correspondence between Barry and the GSO in the collection at Brown University. Barry is making his case for royalties from Living Sober and the GSO is not in agreement. I speculate that this may have contributed to his decision not to give it to the GSO.

Chris Budnick
Raleigh, NC


---- Joe Chisholm <omyword@yahoo.com> wrote:

=============
I heard that Barry Leach (Do You Think You're Different?, Living Sober) was in possession of the original manuscript before his death and that his intentions were to gift it back to AA upon his death. He was a close friend to Lois wasn't he?

Can anyone speak to this? I think he spoke of the manuscript at his 1985 World Conference talk in Montreal, which I understand was one of his last recorded talks.


On Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:17:39 PM, AAHistoryLovers <hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
April 2014: the original working manuscript of the Big Book is now once more up for sale.

From Jim M = silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com (silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com)

Ken R., the present owner, purchased it at Sotheby's in 2007 for just under a million dollars. He wanted to get it out to the world, so "The Book That Started It All" was published and made available thanks to Hazelden Publishing.

He has now decided to sell the manuscript. Asking price: $8,000,000. Also being offered with the sale is a second edition Big Book signed by Bill Wilson and four LP albums that originally sold with the manuscript at Sotheby's auction.

Ken R. has asked me to post it on my site, so for further information and details, please go to my index
page:
http://www.silkworth.net/


===============================================

AAHL message no. 5131:

The Printer's Manuscript that Bill had kept was the actual annotated multilith that was taken to Cornwall Press in early February 1939. It contained all of the last-minute edits with handwritten notes and changes from Bill, Hank P., and a few others (how about some things from the book publisher, too? anything can be possible). This original copy has great provenance; one greatly historical item that was saved over the years.

Lois retained it after Bill died and gifted it (1980s?) to Barry L. as a token of her affection for his friendship. A few say that it was a collateral compensation for the low AAWS payment for his work on "Living Sober," or, more likely his efforts to help write "Lois Remembers."

Someone performed conservation on this manuscript at some point, too--- it may have been deacidified and
encapsulated by Barry's family or immediately prior to the Sotheby's Auction House offering in 2004. Bill P. of Minnesota (rest his soul) was one AA archivist who verified its authenticity when it was placed on the auction block, and the sellers (Barry's heirs) accepted a telephoned bid from someone in Californ