10468|10399|2015-01-01 16:27:38|AAHistoryLovers|Re: The oldest of the oldtimers|
From: jax760 (jax760 at yahoo.com)

Steve M from New Jersey has 56 years.


| 10469|10409|2015-01-01 17:03:28|AAHistoryLovers|Re: 90 in 90 question|
From Robert S. and Bob S.
.......................................................
From: robertspringer805
(robertspringer805 at yahoo.com)

The website http://www.e-aa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=9840 talks about a Grapevine article from January 1959 called 90 - Day Trial http://www.aagrapevine.org/node/9120 I don't have a subscription but maybe it will help someone who does. -- Robert S.
.......................................................
From: Bob S. = rstonebraker212@comcast.net
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

30 meetings in 30 days: I began my sobriety in 1975 in Santa Monica, CA.  In those days the slogan was 30 meetings in 30 days.  I came across the slogan,”90 meetings in 90 days” several years later when I moved to Indiana.  -- Bob S.

| 10470|10455|2015-01-01 17:25:01|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Going on a jag|
From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net (ron.fulkerson at comcast.net)

According to the Manchester Journal newspaper, the official opening of the airfield was set for July 4th, 1928. Reporting in June, 1928: "The first plane to have the honor of landing on the new field was driven by W.C. Billings, head of the Boston Airport."

.......................................................
Original message #10455
Big Book p. 9 -- Ebby, newly sober, contacts Bill, who remembers one of the drunken sprees he and Ebby once went on -- "There was that time we had chartered an airplane to complete a jag!"

That is,"chartered an airplane" in January 1929, to fly from Albany, New York, to the grand opening of the new airport by the Equinox House at Manchester, Vermont.

Arthur S., Narrative Timeline of AA History, says:
1929 - January, on a trip to Manchester, VT, Bill called Ebby T in Albany, NY. After an all-night drinking spree, they chartered a flight with Flyers Inc in Albany to be the first flight to Manchester. They landed quite drunk (the pilot Ted B____, as well) and disgraced themselves. (EBBY 39-41, PIO 83-84, BW-40 121, NW 20, LR 76-77, LOH 367, BW-RT 183).


| 10471|10449|2015-01-01 18:11:44|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA Without the God?|
From: bear8512100
(murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)

Any Kindred spirits who form a group can call itself an AA group. No problem. If a groups puts up an edited copy of the 12 steps , they have hung a lie, if edited they aren't "the 12 steps." Then an autonomous INTERGROUP says we can't put that group in our meeting list. Is INTERGROUP against the traditions! Is the edited 12 step group against traditions if they post unauthorized edited list? 

What was really being said about the Toronto case:

=================================
Two Toronto secular groups [were] delisted by their Intergroup for posting their revised 12 Steps online. Step 6, for example, had been changed from "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character" to "Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character." An AA member who was on hand for the Intergroup decision told the Toronto Star that the altered 12 Steps of the agnostic group "are not our 12 Steps. They've changed them to their own personal needs. They should never have been listed in the first place."
=================================

I'm confused. And Carl A says "I think the World Service Manual says you cannot edit the 12 steps and be considered an AA group?" Also who exactly wrote that 1946 Grapevine article quoted in the post?

Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh
Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100


| 10472|10097|2015-01-01 18:12:00|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Courtenay Baylor was a Mason; financial problems|
From: baylor_gs (baylor_gs at yahoo.com)

Hi,  I can clear a few things up for you.  I am one of Courtenay's only 2 grandsons.  He and Edith had only one child, Sidney Hedges Baylor.  The Obit misprinted that he was from Newton at the time of his father's death.  Sidney and Alice had only one child before Alice passed away from TB.  Her name is Edith Ann Baylor, currently going by Edith B. Cummings.  Many in the family have been alcoholics but there is nothing in our family records that clearly state that it was one of Courtenay's reasons for joining up with Dr. Worcester.  The family has always had strong ties in the Episcopal church and working in local social services.

Sidney Hedges Baylor was his name and they lived in Newton.  Edith A is my mother.  There was no loss of communication within the family.  It just kinda faded as Sidney and my mom were only children.

.......................................................
In response to Message 10085:

It was suggested to me that a full posting of the Courtenay Baylor obit that I found in the 31 May 1947 Boston Globe would be appropriate.  So here it is:

Courtenay Baylor

Was Founder of The Craigie Foundation

Courtenay Baylor, 76, well known in the Emmanuel Movement for many years, died yesterday at his home, 63 Avon Hill St, Cambridge.

Mr. Baylor was closely associated with the late Dr. Elwood Worcester at Emmanuel Church on Newbury St, in what became widely known as the Emmanuel Movement.  His interest in it began in 1912, and, when Dr. Worchester retired, Mr. Baylor formed the Craigie Foundation, a charitable organization chartered under the laws of Massachusetts. at 176 Marlboro St, to carry on the work.

It was sustained by contributions of interested persons until 1929, after which, when the support fell off because of the economic depression of 1929-1933, Mr. Baylor began to sustain the work from fees for  his private cases and was able to maintain the free clinical work of the Craigie Foundation until 1939.

For the next decade he carried on his private case work until, in 1944, he was invited by the vestry and clergy of Emmanuel to return to that church in his former capacity, but still maintained his private office at the Hotel Myles Standish.

Mr. Baylor was born Nov 3, 1870, at Marion.  His family had come out of the South after the Civil War.  His father, while in the Confederate Army, having been a member of the Georgia Peace Party, ran the blockade with a price on his head to communicate with Charles Sumner and interview President Lincoln.

Courtenay Baylor called himself a counselor in personal relations, but those who knew his unique qualities and his immense and varied abilities described him as a one-man team of parson, lawyer and doctor.  His preparation for this highly skilled profession had been unconsciously thorough.  Denied a college education by family reverses and responsibilities, after he was graduated from Cheshire Academy in Cheshire Conn., he went to work at the age of 18 in Boston for the Wainwright Manufacturing Company as an office boy.

His next move was into the real estate business, then as a traveling salesman for N.P. Page & Co. of Boston, who sold plate glass.  At the age of 24 he was general agent for the re-entry of the Phoenix Mutual Life Insurance Company into Massachusetts in 1894. In 1902 he became vice-president and agency director of the Louisiana National Life Insurance Company at New Orleans.  During the next ten years he had some experience in banking and personal interests in mining and irrigation in Colorado and Arizona.

This varied experience as a man of affairs he carried into his religious work where it was a unique equipment for one who, whatever he might call himself, was at heart a religious mystic.  His extraordinary achievements might fill a volume, quite as profitably as Dr. Worchester's autobiography.

Mr. Baylor was a trustee of Cheshire Academy, a member of the St. Botolph Club, Boston, and the Essex County Club in Manchester, and was also a Mason.

He leaves a son, Sidney H. Newton, and a granddaughter, Edith. Funeral services will be held Monday at 12:30 at Emmanuel Church, Newbury St. Burial will be at Mt. Auburn.

(Mt Auburn website has an interactive grave map that allows a person to search by name and the map indicates the exact grave location. Bigelow Chapel Columbarium, Column 3) 

.......................................................
And to Message 10097:

From: kochbrian@hotmail.com (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

Cora,
From ancestry dot com I found his Mason's membership card. It has a notation that his membership was suspended Jan 9, 1906, and was never noted as reinstated. This falls in the window you mentioned.* His obit did mention him being a Mason. No reason for suspension given, but we may be able I hazard a general guess.
Brian

- - - -

From: corafinch (corafinch at yahoo.com)

A correction is due here. I never had any evidence that Baylor was an alcoholic, only that he had come to Elwood Worcester's attention when Baylor requested help with his own problems. In 1912 Baylor became head of social work services at Emmanuel Church, and some years after that became known for his success with alcoholics.

One thing is known about Baylor's problems. In 1902 he became the primary architect of a securities scheme that ended in disaster. He interested several other people, at least two of whom had good reputations in securities and banking, in the Shenandoah Irrigation and Land Company in Colorado. They formed a second company, Provident Securities and Banking, invested almost entirely in Shenandoah.  Long story short, four years later the only issue was whether the scheme had been ridiculously speculative or outright fraudulent. The DA intimated that there might be criminal charges but apparently none were brought. The company went into receivership and the investors recovered a little bit of their money.

I wondered about Courtenay Hazard's sense of financial responsibility after noticing that he was characterized somewhat negatively in the Hazard family papers. Rowland Hazard's brother Pierre, who was paying Baylor out of family money in 1933-4, wrote to Baylor with  some concerns about the large amount of money he was charging (Baylor was initially working full-time for the Hazards, then half-time) and the amount of time that he was away on trips.

======================================
*See Cora Finch, message 10091:

So glad you found this [obituary]! It is difficult to find information on Courtenay Baylor.

I was going over the census records a while back, and it looked as though there was some disaster in Baylor's life between  1900 and 1910. I assumed it had something to do with alcohol. In 1900, Baylor and his wife were living in Cambridge, MA and had a 3 year old son, Sidney H. Baylor. In 1910, they were in Providence, RI (the only census that finds them anywhere but the Boston area), in a boarding house, and Sidney had disappeared. There is no further record of a Sidney Baylor at all, so I wondered if he had died or was being raised in another family.

The obituary clears that up. There is again a hint that things went downhill after 1902, when he "had some experience in banking and personal interest in mining and irrigation in Colorado and Arizona."   Sidney is mentioned as Baylor's son, but with a different last name. Most likely he was adopted out during the difficult times, but remained in touch with his parents.
======================================


| 10473|10473|2015-01-01 18:12:16|Jeff Bruce|Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose|

On pages 122-123 of the 12x12, Bill writes of a group of “eminent psychologists and doctors” who made this finding after “exhaustive study.”  Do we have a record of that study or of the names of the doctors who made this finding?  Where else are there references to this study or analyses of it?


--
 Jeff
(323) 463-6603
| 10474|10474|2015-01-01 18:19:51|robert stonebraker|The first landing at Equinox Airport|

The first  landing at Equinox Airport:  There is a full page in the following link which includes the newspaper article mentioned below—it is located in the Appendix pages:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/102806363/preaa.pdf

 

Bob S.

 

===================================================

 

From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net (ron.fulkerson at comcast.net)

According to the Manchester Journal newspaper, the official opening of the airfield was set for July 4th, 1928. Reporting in June, 1928: "The first plane to have the honor of landing on the new field was driven by W.C. Billings, head of the Boston Airport."

 

| 10475|10475|2015-01-01 21:08:47|honest03060|Who sponsored the first women NY, Akron and Cleveland?|

Have not found any clear documents so I ask the group.  Who sponsored the first women in AA in NY, Akron and Cleveland?

Thanks and Happy and Healthy New Year

SWJ,

| 10476|10473|2015-01-02 10:37:40|J. Blair|Re: Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose|
 
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose
 


On pages 122-123 of the 12x12, Bill writes of a group of “eminent psychologists and doctors” who made this finding after “exhaustive study.”  Do we have a record of that study or of the names of the doctors who made this finding?  Where else are there references to this study or analyses of it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“ Some years ago the doctors began to look at Alcoholics Anonymous and they got about thirty of us together and they said to themselves "Well, now that these fellows are in A.A., and they won't lie so badly, and maybe for the first time we'll get a good look at what the interior of a drunk is like." So a number of us were examined at great length by psychiatrists, and all sorts of tests taken, and the object of this particular inquiry was to see whether alcoholics as a class differed from other people, and if they did, just why and how much.

A number of us were invited to attend the conclave, and a number of learned papers were read, and finally one of these physicians (a very noted one - the meeting took place at the New York Academy of Medicine) began to sum up what he thought the conclusion which they had arrived at was this: that the alcoholic is emotionally on the childish side. That the alcoholic is a person who is more sensitive emotionally than the average person. And then, they ascribed another quality to us - they used the word "grandiosity," they were grandiose (meaning by that that as a type we were what you might call "All of nothing people.") Someone once described it by saying all alcoholics hanker for the moon when perhaps the stars would have done just as well. As a class, we're like that, said the doctors.” (Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947)


From Transcript of talk by Bill W., Memphis, Tenn., Sept.18-20, 1947
| 10477|10473|2015-01-02 10:38:41|Gerry Winkelman C. E. F.|Re: Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose|
Yale institute for alcoholic studies. Dr Jelinek. Famous study, of which Searcy W of Texas was one of the researchers that worked for him. Searcy died a couple years ago, But did extensive writing about his experiences. He gave me copies of his books when I visited him in Texas about 8 years ago. I'm sure many copies of those books exist.
In the spirit of Love and Service, Gerry Winkelman .

Sent from my Samsung smartphone on AT&T

"Jeff Bruce aliasjb@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>On pages 122-123 of the 12x12, Bill writes of a group of “eminent
>psychologists and doctors” who made this finding after “exhaustive study.” Do
>we have a record of that study or of the names of the doctors who made this
>finding? Where else are there references to this study or analyses of it?
>
>
>--
> Jeff
>(323) 463-6603
| 10478|10475|2015-01-04 16:16:51|royslev|Re: Who sponsored the first women NY, Akron and Cleveland?|

All I have to contribute on this is Clarence Snyder's recorded talks about his sponsoring some of the first women in A.A.  He's got a great tale about a girl named Margeret who would "do anything, and I mean anything for a drink!" 


Of course, Clarence claimed a lot of firsts in A.A. some of which were probably merited.

| 10479|10458|2015-01-04 16:25:51|AAHistoryLovers|Re: I am an alcoholic|
From richardwtompkins and walkwithpurpose

.......................................................
From: (richardwtompkins at gmail.com)

Seems that I've found Bill W introducing himself to a group with "and I'm a rum hound." Or was it just in a movie? Makes sense to me. And late 1940s and early 1950s for our Sister? When was she transferred to a Cleveland hospital?
.......................................................
From: (walkwithpurpose10 at yahoo.com)

Tom O. (North Carolina) told me it started in a prison in California in the 1960s. And, that neither Dr. Bob nor Bill introduced themselves that way. Any recordings of either fellow seems to confirm this.
.......................................................

| 10480|10334|2015-01-04 16:32:34|suddenturtle|Re: U.S. court decision that AA is religious|
Thank you CrescentDave for noting my authorship ( Linda R ) of the article on the Courts, AA and Religion that you quoted.

Some in this thread have commented that the courts did not rule  AA to be a religion or a Big R denomination.  That is correct. 

The courts never examined AA World Services, which is the legal entity that is AA.   

Instead what the courts looked at was specific professional rehab programs and meetings in the local community (both AA and NA) facilitated by volunteers who taught the 12 Steps to attendees.   

The courts determined that the 12 Steps were religious in nature and that ordering people to attend rehabs and meetings that used and taught the 12 Steps was prohibited to government agencies and entities, unless a nonreligious program was also offered at the same time.  Ordering someone who is under the court's jurisdiction to choose to attend a religious program (12 Step) or go to jail was ruled to be unconstitutional.   The government must not get involved in preferring one religious program over another and and must not prefer, establish or favor a religious program over a nonreligion program.  This is the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution - the Establishment Clause.    

Although anecdotally the AA members in my location will say that meeting attendees may select a non-supernatural higher power such as the Doorknob or a Rock or the AA Group or the Sun......... the Big Book itself - the 12 Step program of the Big Book ---- does not suggest these types of higher powers as the solution for the alcoholic of the "hopeless variety." .  Instead, the Big Book suggests God as we understood Him to be the Power of the 12 Steps.  The literature (the Big Book and the 12 & 12 )  is a major part of what the courts examined.  

There is now a pretty long history of court cases involving the 12 Step program.   The U.S. courts said this about the 12 Step program:

“Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.”
— Wisconsin’s Federal 7th Circuit Court , Grandberg v. Ashland County, 1984.

“Thus, while it is of course true that the primary objective of A.A. is to enable its adherents to achieve sobriety, its doctrine unmistakably urges that the path to staying sober and to becoming “happily and usefully whole,” is by wholeheartedly embracing traditional theistic belief. These expressions and practices constitute, as a matter of law, religious exercise.”
— The New York Court of Appeals, Griffin v. Coughlin, 1996.

“A straightforward reading of the twelve steps shows clearly that the steps are based on the monotheistic idea of a single God or Supreme Being. True, that God might be known as Allah to some, or YHWH to others, or the Holy Trinity to still others, but the twelve steps consistently refer to “God, as we understood Him [italics for Him added by the court].”
- U. S. Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit, Kerr v. Farrey (1996).

“This was therefore not a case (again, on the present record) where the only religious note was struck by the insertion of the words “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, or other incidental references that the courts have upheld. Because that is true, the program runs afoul of the prohibition against the state’s favoring religion in general over non-religion.”
- U. S. Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit, Kerr v. Farrey (1996).


Sincerely, 
LInda R. 
 
| 10481|10481|2015-01-04 17:19:22|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA without God|
From schaberg, jon markle, aliasjb, Dan C., Toronto Joe C., grault, R. Peter N.

.......................................................
From: schaberg43
(bill at athenararebooks.com)
Several things about this controversy fly in the face of my understanding of Bill Wilson's life-long efforts to make A.A. as inclusive as possible. He was interested in getting people sober... not in doctrinal correctness. Period.
While there are a host of primary documents that amply support this contention, I would refer those who insist on the inviolate nature of the 12 Steps to page 81 of Bill's book, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age:
"We took A.A.'s Twelve Steps over to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province. We showed them to the priest at the head of it. After he had finished looking over the Twelve Steps, the monk said, 'Why, these are fine! Since we as Buddhists don't understand God just as you do, it might be slightly more acceptable if you inserted the word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say in these Steps that it is God as you understand Him. That clears up the point for us. Yes, A.A.'s Twelve Steps will certainly be accepted by the Buddhists around here.' "
To some of us, the idea of substituting "good" for "God" in the Twelve Steps may seem like a watering down of A.A.'s message. But here we must remember that A.A.'s Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them as they stand is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made A.A. available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written. But changes in them seldom last; the original version usually wins out. What has proved so true here in America will probably prove true in many a far-off land. Alcoholics may be led to believe in God, but none can be forced.   [underlining and bold added]
.......................................................
From: (jon.markle at mac.com)
I think, it's been my experience, that individual Intergroup offices may do anything they wish.  They may and many do, print a directory of all 12-Step meetings in a given area, as is the case in many smaller communities.  And they do, many times, share the lease or rent out space to other 12-Step groups (such as Al-anon, NA, CA, OA, etc) for shared office space and/or meetings.  I don't think World Services has any governance over local Intergroups.  Or if they do, it cannot be, or is not, enforced. -- Jon Markle, Raleigh (9.9.82)
.......................................................
From: aliasjb@gmail.com (aliasjb at gmail.com)
My own feeling on the matter of modifying either long standing tradition of literature is that an AA meeting should not.  There is no reason that the members of the group, either individually or as a whole, should not change things for their own use, but it should be made clear to anyone new that the meeting deviates from AA as normally and traditionally practiced.  I believe that, although we have no responsibility to accept or practice everything which is traditional to AA, we do have a responsibility to be clear about what AA says and what it does not say.  This includes accurate quotations.
Here's an example which I found astonishing.  A couple of months ago there was someone new to a meeting I attend regularly, and that person was to close out the meeting with the Lord's Prayer, something not in the Big Book, but traditionally a part of AA.  She began, "Our Father........or Mother.......or Transgender parent.....hallowed be, etc."  If this were a regular practice at our meeting, I would believe it appropriate for our central office to remove us from the local directory but that it would not be appropriate to insist that we call ourselves something other than an AA fellowship.
.......................................................
From: Dan C. = daniel_cllhn
(Dan.Panama at gmail.com)
What Tradition would that be that says altered steps preclude a group from being listed? None! Actually Bill said they do not need to be exact!  The steps are suggested steps. Too many control issues with people. -- Dan C (4/14/88)
.......................................................
From: toronto_joe_c
(omyword at yahoo.com)
Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups | Toronto Star
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/06/03/does_religion_belong_at_aa_fight_over_god_splits_toronto_aa_groups.html
The dispute started when Beyond Belief posted an adapted version of AA's hallowed "Twelve Steps" on the Toronto website. They removed the word "God"
This is an interesting question.
Are the Twelve Steps suggested or sacred? If a member or a group suggests an interpretation of our Twelve Steps has a sacred tenet of A.A. membership or group status been violated? Can a group's rights and status be revoked for blasphemy or any real or perceived violation of A.A.'s traditions?
I am not surveying opinions on the matter. I am sure we all have one (or two). I am asking about our history.
In the 1950s, Bill W. himself calmed the same literalist (mentality) as those who removed Toronto groups from their Greater Toronto Area directory. Before many of us were born, Buddhist groups adopted a secular version of AA's Steps. His Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1957) states:
"To some of us, the idea of substituting 'good' for 'God' in the Twelve Steps will seem like a watering down of AA's message. But here we must remember that AA's Steps are suggestions only. A belief in them, as they stand, is not at all a requirement for membership among us. This liberty has made AA available to thousands who never would have tried at all had we insisted on the Twelve Steps just as written." pg. 81 A.A. Comes of Age
Around the same time as AACA was being written, Bern Smith Class A Trustee wrote what is now Appendix E of our A.A. World Service Manual, "Bylaws of the General Service Board, Inc." In here, reads a turgid passage:
"The General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous … claims no proprietary right in the recovery program, for these Twelve Steps, as all spiritual truths, may now be regarded as available to all mankind. However, because the Steps have proven to constitute an effective spiritual basis for life which, if followed, arrests the disease of alcoholism, the General Service Board asserts the negative right of preserving, so far as it may be within its power to do, any modifications, alterations, or extension of these Twelve Steps, except at the instance of the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous." pg. S-111 A.A. World Service Manual.
Are these two ideas contradictory or complementary? Are the bylaws protection for the groups and members of A.A. from the General Service Board (preventing the board or conference from becoming 'the seat of perilous wealth or power')? Or are these bylaws a mandate by which GSO (or Intergroups or any other service bodies) can scrutinize group status or individual membership status?
I can tell you one thing about the vote in Toronto. The person quoted in on the front page of the Toronto Star article who voted the two groups out, had the impression, or was led to believe, that the bylaws passage, quoted from the Service Manual was a mandate, if not a duty, for Intergroup to stand in judgment of the group and maintain A.A. uniformity. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/06/03/does_religion_belong_at_aa_fight_over_god_splits_toronto_aa_groups.html
You can tell by the quoted member's tone he/she was sure that nonconformity is un-AA. Is non-conformity un-AA? Does unity demand uniformity? Is it good stewardship for Intergroups to put any group up against the court of popular opinion if another group and/or member finds what someone else's groups does, as part of their rituals, offensive?
Again, this isn't an op-ed, it's a question about our history. Can anyone shed some light on A.A. Comes of Age (page 81) the Bylaws and the intent and purpose of the above mentioned statement from the Bylaws?
Is there anything else in our history that suggests rights as a group or member are not inherent and if they are not, what are the conditions on which they are to be revoked?
.......................................................
From: grault (GRault at yahoo.com)
I've always thought the Intergroup(s) actions were ill considered, bigoted and themselves contrary to the Traditions.  I doubt that the World Services Manual or any other "official" AA literature has said the Steps can not be edited.  If I'm wrong I'd like to be referred to the document itself.  The Steps are not copyrighted.  In any event, the Agnostic or WAFT ("We Agnostics and Freethinkers") have never, to my knowledge, claimed that their versions are the "A.A. Steps." Rather, they are simply a rewritten and altered phraseology more closely reflecting the beliefs of that particular group. (How often have women's groups and others referred to God as "She"?) 
(Incidentally thee 1946 article and quote were written by Bill Wilson.)
.......................................................
From: R. Peter N. = r_peter2003
(fivequestionsguy at gmail.com)
I am not confused by the InterGroups' actions.
Any two or more ALCOHOLICS gathered together may CALL themselves an AA Group.  It means that and nothing more.  It doesn't necessarily follow that other AA Groups have to RECOGNIZE them as an AA Group.  Nor are other groups duty-bound to PROMOTE them as an AA Group.  It just means that other AA Groups shouldn't send hordes of lawyers to sue their butts off for CALLING themselves an AA Group.
I am, however, perplexed by the aaagnostics' actions.
Why, on earth, would they WISH to call themselves an AA Group?  On page 39, the Basic Text states, "But the actual or potential alcoholic, with hardly an exception, will be absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge."  Furthermore, on page 45, the Text states, "Well, that's exactly what this book is about.  Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem." [Note the capitalization of "Power" - its an euphemism for "God".]
Finally, Tradition 1 states, "Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends on AA unity."   Yet the agnostics' flaunt unity when Page S100 of the AA Service Manual states, "But no change in Article 12 of the Charter of in the Twelve Traditions of AA or in the Twelve Steps of AA may be made with less than the written consent of of three-quarters of the AA Groups, as described in the Resolution adopted by the 1955 Conference and Convention."  Clearly, by some sort of twisted logic, the aaagnostics wish to CALL themselves AA, but wish to remain OUTSIDE of AA unity.  Therefore, they are an outside entity - the same as treatment centres, wellness wheels, alcohol and drug counsellors, etc.  Accordingly, as per Tradition 10, "The Alcoholics Anonymous groups shall oppose no one.  Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever."  If the various InterGroups were to list the aaagostics' meetings it would be the equivalent of listing the after-care meetings of treatment centres and that would be expressing, (tacitly at the very least), some sort of view.
R. Peter N., Vancouver, BC
.......................................................

| 10482|10473|2015-01-04 17:43:38|Martin B|Re: Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose|
THE EGO FACTORS
IN SURRENDER IN ALCOHOLISM
Harry M. Tiebout, M.D.

| 10483|10483|2015-01-04 17:57:03|AAHistoryLovers|Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"|
Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"

From: martinb0858@yahoo.com (martinb0858@yahoo.com)

Does anyone know the reasoning behind The Little Red Book changing from

"An Interpretation of Alcoholics Anonymous Program of the The Twelve Steps"  MCMXLVII [=1947]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jpyzzm0v7e2d713/1962%20Red%20Book.jpg?dl=0

to

"An Orthodox Interpretation of Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program" 1964
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nix2li3jg7wcnuh/1964%20Red%20Book.jpg?dl=0

There is no reference to it in Damian McElrath's book


FROM THE MODERATOR: but please do look at Tommy H.'s

| 10484|10399|2015-01-04 18:07:43|Joseph HerronJr.|Re: The oldest of the oldtimers|
George S. from Devore, CA. will be celebrating 58 years of Sobriety
on January 10th, 2015.

Joseph H.

| 10485|10485|2015-01-04 18:08:12|AAHistoryLovers|Sick as your secrets|
From: (royslev at yahoo.com)

Re: the fellowship slogan: "you are only as sick as your secrets" there is much "spiritual legitimacy" to this phrase.

Jay S. a contributing member on the A.A. History Panel at the last International at San Antonio along with Big Book archivist Art S. and others turned me on to Sam Shoemaker's book "Twice Born Ministers" first published in 1923 sixteen years before the Big Book.

Jay who got interested in Oxford Group influences on A.A. got me to read this book republilshed by Tuchy Palmieri.

This book was dedicated to Frank Buchman founder of the O.G. and Shoemaker was at that time his "number two man" as a prominent O.G. "leader" if such a term could be used.  Let's just say he was a prominent O.G. supporter among the legitmate clergy.

Twice Born is the collected stories of ordained ministers who were revitalized ("born again" we might say today) through contract with Buchman and his teachings of building a personal relationship with God rather than one with an institutional church.

In one story, "Joculator Domini" pg 91 of Palmieri's 2009 reprint paperback edition we find the following realization by the author after abiding by Buchman's teachings:"I discovered four things which needed putting right in my life:

1. There was one person who had wronged me who I would not forgive.

2. There was a restitution which I would not make.

3. There was a doubtful pleasure which I would not give up.

4. There was a sin in the long past which I would not confess."

If you look in our Big Book chapters 5 and 6 you will see that this process is exactly what our text recommends as to "removing the obstacles" which block us from God, HP, etc.  That is we must get rid of (have "cast out") resentments (who I would not forgive).  We must make amends (restitution) "regardless of personal consequences." We must desist in harming others, especially in a financial way, and a sexual way (doubtful pleasures)  "or we are sure to drink....this is not a theory these are facts out of our experience."

Finally, and to the point of the slogan under discussion about "sick as our secrets:" BB 73:0  "But they only though they hmbled themselves.  But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else ALL (italics in Big Book) their life story."  The "sin" (starndard O.G. nomenclature) that needed confessing.

From what I have learned of our founders from reading books by Glenn C., Ernie Kurtz, listening to seminars by Jay S., and reading A.A. conference approved history I think Dr. Bob and Bill would have been 100% behind the fellowship slogan "you're only as sick as your secrets."Remember the boys who wrote our Big Book got their spiritual instruction from men like Buchman and Sam Shomaker.

Also, check out Bill W.'s 1951 Dallas talks where he tells the story of Ebby Thacher's "12 Step Call" (of course there weren't any "steps" yet) on Bill in his brownstone on Clinton Street in Brooklyn.

Delivered in Bill's own Vermont twang, he tells the story of Ebby's message to him and its effect on him culminating in his "white light" experience as a patient at Towne's Hospital.

One of the spiritual principles ("steps") of the word-of-mouth program as delivered by O.G. member Ebby to Bill was "you have to make a confession."  These are Bill's words.  This was a big part of O.G. practice and what the early A.A. members where doing before we had the benefit of our book, codifying the message in more precise terms.

In short anybody who can read the Big Book would know that Bill and Bob would support the slogan "you're only as sick as your secrets."

Try this:  BB 73:2  "Coming to his senses, he is revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers.  These memories are a nightmare.  He termbles to think someone might have observed him.  As fast as he can he pushes these memories far inside himself.  He hopes they will never see the light of day ("a sin I would not confess") He is under constant fear and tension---that makes for more drinking."Now, I don't think you have to let at all the secrets to the fellowship at meeting level, but that's exactly what sponsors and a 5th step are for.

I hope this helps.

Roy L.  a.k.a. "a miracle of mental health" class of `78  home email:  royslev@verizon.net

.......................................................   
In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

In his book, The New Group Therapy, Orval Hobart Mowrer (who never used his first name and generally wrote as O. H. Mowrer) said that the phrase was a distillation of his thinking as it developed over the years. Early in his career he was inspired by Harry Stack Sullivan and later by the "reality therapy" of William Glasser. Mowrer's methods were notoriously confrontational, resembling in some ways the popular "gestalt therapy" of the time.There is an interesting coincidence associated with the phrase about sins and secrets. Mowrer said that the inspiration came to him after reading the novel Miraculous Obsession by Lloyd C. Douglas. To me, Mowrer's concept does not seem particularly close to the Douglas one, which was a development of ideas found in the Gospels. However, Mowrer saw it all as one broad insight.

Lloyd C. Douglas was an early admirer of Frank Buchman, going back to the days when both men worked in collegiate ministry. Douglas wrote an article about Buchman around 1914, for a YMCA publication. He also hosted an Oxford Group event in the early 1930s, when he was a minister in Canada. Although supportive, he probably was not a member of the Oxford Group.

So the sins and secrets phrase has a nice provenance. It is also associated with the most confrontational branch of rehab philosophy. The legacy of O. H. Mowrer is strongest in substance abuse treatment programs for criminal offenders, but is also found in other old-school, high-confrontation, low-empathy environments. This may have something to do with Ernie's assessment. The concepts themselves are not altogether bad but they have developed some seamy associations.--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "last_town" wrote:
>
> I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's contention that the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been anathema to the founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery." There is an earlier discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is attributed to Maurer [should be spelled Mowrer], but only a brief mention and it's from 2007.

For the entire text of THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ see
http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

For chapt. 9. "Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey," see
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf


| 10486|10483|2015-01-05 18:01:45|Tom Hickcox|Re: Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"|
On 1/4/2015 20:56, AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"

From: martinb0858@yahoo.com (martinb0858@yahoo.com)

Does anyone know the reasoning behind The Little Red Book changing from

"An Interpretation of Alcoholics Anonymous Program of the The Twelve Steps"  MCMXLVII [=1947]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jpyzzm0v7e2d713/1962%20Red%20Book.jpg?dl=0

to

"An Orthodox Interpretation of Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program" 1964
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nix2li3jg7wcnuh/1964%20Red%20Book.jpg?dl=0

There is no reference to it in Damian McElrath's book


FROM THE MODERATOR: but please do look at Tommy H.'s


The books I am referring to here at the Coll-Webb printings.

The original title of the Little Red Book, as given on the half-title page (I'm not sure that is the right description.), is "The Twelve Steps."  It changed to "The Little Red Book" with the MCMXLIX/1949 printing also dubbed "5th Printing."

The first time the word "orthodox" appears on the full-title page is in the 18th Printing in 1964.  I believe Hazelden had the book then, so they are responsible for that.  All the small format Little Red Books use the word.

Tommy H


| 10487|10485|2015-01-06 09:31:21|John Barton|Re: Sick as your secrets|
This thought, "only as sick as your secrets" can also be found in one of Sam's books though worded slightly differently.. Don't ask me to quote which one as I'd have to back track though at least 5 or 6 I've recently read....they were all first printings so I didn't mark up with highlighting. I will tell you this....the vast majority and I do mean vast....of what we do, say and think in AA has come from Sam Shoemaker. One need only read his 21 or so books to see the AA program Chapter and verse.At this point I am only missing two of his published works and still have about seven to read. With each book I see more of the AA program all of which Sam was practicing and preaching long before Bill came on the scene.
 
BTW - for a great read check out Sam's  "How You Can Help Other People" - recently available as a reprint.
 
God Bless
 
John B


From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2015 9:07 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sick as your secrets

 
From: (royslev at yahoo.com)

Re: the fellowship slogan: "you are only as sick as your secrets" there is much "spiritual legitimacy" to this phrase.

Jay S. a contributing member on the A.A. History Panel at the last International at San Antonio along with Big Book archivist Art S. and others turned me on to Sam Shoemaker's book "Twice Born Ministers" first published in 1923 sixteen years before the Big Book.

Jay who got interested in Oxford Group influences on A.A. got me to read this book republilshed by Tuchy Palmieri.

This book was dedicated to Frank Buchman founder of the O.G. and Shoemaker was at that time his "number two man" as a prominent O.G. "leader" if such a term could be used.  Let's just say he was a prominent O.G. supporter among the legitmate clergy.

Twice Born is the collected stories of ordained ministers who were revitalized ("born again" we might say today) through contract with Buchman and his teachings of building a personal relationship with God rather than one with an institutional church.

In one story, "Joculator Domini" pg 91 of Palmieri's 2009 reprint paperback edition we find the following realization by the author after abiding by Buchman's teachings:"I discovered four things which needed putting right in my life:

1. There was one person who had wronged me who I would not forgive.

2. There was a restitution which I would not make.

3. There was a doubtful pleasure which I would not give up.

4. There was a sin in the long past which I would not confess."

If you look in our Big Book chapters 5 and 6 you will see that this process is exactly what our text recommends as to "removing the obstacles" which block us from God, HP, etc.  That is we must get rid of (have "cast out") resentments (who I would not forgive).  We must make amends (restitution) "regardless of personal consequences." We must desist in harming others, especially in a financial way, and a sexual way (doubtful pleasures)  "or we are sure to drink....this is not a theory these are facts out of our experience."

Finally, and to the point of the slogan under discussion about "sick as our secrets:" BB 73:0  "But they only though they hmbled themselves.  But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else ALL (italics in Big Book) their life story."  The "sin" (starndard O.G. nomenclature) that needed confessing.

From what I have learned of our founders from reading books by Glenn C., Ernie Kurtz, listening to seminars by Jay S., and reading A.A. conference approved history I think Dr. Bob and Bill would have been 100% behind the fellowship slogan "you're only as sick as your secrets."Remember the boys who wrote our Big Book got their spiritual instruction from men like Buchman and Sam Shomaker.

Also, check out Bill W.'s 1951 Dallas talks where he tells the story of Ebby Thacher's "12 Step Call" (of course there weren't any "steps" yet) on Bill in his brownstone on Clinton Street in Brooklyn.

Delivered in Bill's own Vermont twang, he tells the story of Ebby's message to him and its effect on him culminating in his "white light" experience as a patient at Towne's Hospital.

One of the spiritual principles ("steps") of the word-of-mouth program as delivered by O.G. member Ebby to Bill was "you have to make a confession."  These are Bill's words.  This was a big part of O.G. practice and what the early A.A. members where doing before we had the benefit of our book, codifying the message in more precise terms.

In short anybody who can read the Big Book would know that Bill and Bob would support the slogan "you're only as sick as your secrets."

Try this:  BB 73:2  "Coming to his senses, he is revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers.  These memories are a nightmare.  He termbles to think someone might have observed him.  As fast as he can he pushes these memories far inside himself.  He hopes they will never see the light of day ("a sin I would not confess") He is under constant fear and tension---that makes for more drinking."Now, I don't think you have to let at all the secrets to the fellowship at meeting level, but that's exactly what sponsors and a 5th step are for.

I hope this helps.

Roy L.  a.k.a. "a miracle of mental health" class of `78  home email:  royslev@verizon.net

.......................................................   
In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

In his book, The New Group Therapy, Orval Hobart Mowrer (who never used his first name and generally wrote as O. H. Mowrer) said that the phrase was a distillation of his thinking as it developed over the years. Early in his career he was inspired by Harry Stack Sullivan and later by the "reality therapy" of William Glasser. Mowrer's methods were notoriously confrontational, resembling in some ways the popular "gestalt therapy" of the time.There is an interesting coincidence associated with the phrase about sins and secrets. Mowrer said that the inspiration came to him after reading the novel Miraculous Obsession by Lloyd C. Douglas. To me, Mowrer's concept does not seem particularly close to the Douglas one, which was a development of ideas found in the Gospels. However, Mowrer saw it all as one broad insight.

Lloyd C. Douglas was an early admirer of Frank Buchman, going back to the days when both men worked in collegiate ministry. Douglas wrote an article about Buchman around 1914, for a YMCA publication. He also hosted an Oxford Group event in the early 1930s, when he was a minister in Canada. Although supportive, he probably was not a member of the Oxford Group.

So the sins and secrets phrase has a nice provenance. It is also associated with the most confrontational branch of rehab philosophy. The legacy of O. H. Mowrer is strongest in substance abuse treatment programs for criminal offenders, but is also found in other old-school, high-confrontation, low-empathy environments. This may have something to do with Ernie's assessment. The concepts themselves are not altogether bad but they have developed some seamy associations.--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "last_town" wrote:
>
> I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's contention that the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been anathema to the founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery." There is an earlier discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is attributed to Maurer [should be spelled Mowrer], but only a brief mention and it's from 2007.

For the entire text of THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ see
http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

For chapt. 9. "Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey," see
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf




| 10488|10483|2015-01-06 10:30:15|James Bliss|Re: Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"|
I do not know the answer to your question.  But, I believe Hazeldon took over in 1968 - 1969 when they first sold out the older books which existed and then sold them with their names (removing the date of printing at that time).  The older books actually had a stamp on them which had Coll Web still on them and the stamp indicated Hazelden.  I have one with the stamp and one which is apparently one of the initial Hazelden printings which has rounded corners and is a smaller format.

I will check my older books for the 'Orthodox Interpretation' and post when that first appeared (I only have a few older Little Red Books).

Jim

On 1/5/2015 12:16 PM, Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
 

On 1/4/2015 20:56, AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"

From: martinb0858@yahoo.com (martinb0858@yahoo.com)

Does anyone know the reasoning behind The Little Red Book changing from

"An Interpretation of Alcoholics Anonymous Program of the The Twelve Steps"  MCMXLVII [=1947]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jpyzzm0v7e2d713/1962%20Red%20Book.jpg?dl=0

to

"An Orthodox Interpretation of Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program" 1964
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nix2li3jg7wcnuh/1964%20Red%20Book.jpg?dl=0

There is no reference to it in Damian McElrath's book


FROM THE MODERATOR: but please do look at Tommy H.'s


The books I am referring to here at the Coll-Webb printings.

The original title of the Little Red Book, as given on the half-title page (I'm not sure that is the right description.), is "The Twelve Steps."  It changed to "The Little Red Book" with the MCMXLIX/1949 printing also dubbed "5th Printing."

The first time the word "orthodox" appears on the full-title page is in the 18th Printing in 1964.  I believe Hazelden had the book then, so they are responsible for that.  All the small format Little Red Books use the word.

Tommy H



| 10489|10485|2015-01-06 10:31:14|Amber Kim Williams|Re: Sam Shoemaker|

I have read about Sam Shoemaker.  I believe that We Agnostics was written or greatly influenced by him. The writing has a different tone.  BB is perennial spiritual writing.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"John Barton jax760@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date:Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:31 AM
Subject:Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Sick as your secrets

 

This thought, "only as sick as your secrets" can also be found in one of Sam's books though worded slightly differently.. Don't ask me to quote which one as I'd have to back track though at least 5 or 6 I've recently read....they were all first printings so I didn't mark up with highlighting. I will tell you this....the vast majority and I do mean vast....of what we do, say and think in AA has come from Sam Shoemaker. One need only read his 21 or so books to see the AA program Chapter and verse.At this point I am only missing two of his published works and still have about seven to read. With each book I see more of the AA program all of which Sam was practicing and preaching long before Bill came on the scene.
 
BTW - for a great read check out Sam's  "How You Can Help Other People" - recently available as a reprint.
 
God Bless
 
John B


From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2015 9:07 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sick as your secrets

 
From: (royslev at yahoo.com)

Re: the fellowship slogan: "you are only as sick as your secrets" there is much "spiritual legitimacy" to this phrase.

Jay S. a contributing member on the A.A. History Panel at the last International at San Antonio along with Big Book archivist Art S. and others turned me on to Sam Shoemaker's book "Twice Born Ministers" first published in 1923 sixteen years before the Big Book.

Jay who got interested in Oxford Group influences on A.A. got me to read this book republilshed by Tuchy Palmieri.

This book was dedicated to Frank Buchman founder of the O.G. and Shoemaker was at that time his "number two man" as a prominent O.G. "leader" if such a term could be used.  Let's just say he was a prominent O.G. supporter among the legitmate clergy.

Twice Born is the collected stories of ordained ministers who were revitalized ("born again" we might say today) through contract with Buchman and his teachings of building a personal relationship with God rather than one with an institutional church.

In one story, "Joculator Domini" pg 91 of Palmieri's 2009 reprint paperback edition we find the following realization by the author after abiding by Buchman's teachings:"I discovered four things which needed putting right in my life:

1. There was one person who had wronged me who I would not forgive.

2. There was a restitution which I would not make.

3. There was a doubtful pleasure which I would not give up.

4. There was a sin in the long past which I would not confess."

If you look in our Big Book chapters 5 and 6 you will see that this process is exactly what our text recommends as to "removing the obstacles" which block us from God, HP, etc.  That is we must get rid of (have "cast out") resentments (who I would not forgive).  We must make amends (restitution) "regardless of personal consequences." We must desist in harming others, especially in a financial way, and a sexual way (doubtful pleasures)  "or we are sure to drink....this is not a theory these are facts out of our experience."

Finally, and to the point of the slogan under discussion about "sick as our secrets:" BB 73:0  "But they only though they hmbled themselves.  But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else ALL (italics in Big Book) their life story."  The "sin" (starndard O.G. nomenclature) that needed confessing.

From what I have learned of our founders from reading books by Glenn C., Ernie Kurtz, listening to seminars by Jay S., and reading A.A. conference approved history I think Dr. Bob and Bill would have been 100% behind the fellowship slogan "you're only as sick as your secrets."Remember the boys who wrote our Big Book got their spiritual instruction from men like Buchman and Sam Shomaker.

Also, check out Bill W.'s 1951 Dallas talks where he tells the story of Ebby Thacher's "12 Step Call" (of course there weren't any "steps" yet) on Bill in his brownstone on Clinton Street in Brooklyn.

Delivered in Bill's own Vermont twang, he tells the story of Ebby's message to him and its effect on him culminating in his "white light" experience as a patient at Towne's Hospital.

One of the spiritual principles ("steps") of the word-of-mouth program as delivered by O.G. member Ebby to Bill was "you have to make a confession."  These are Bill's words.  This was a big part of O.G. practice and what the early A.A. members where doing before we had the benefit of our book, codifying the message in more precise terms.

In short anybody who can read the Big Book would know that Bill and Bob would support the slogan "you're only as sick as your secrets."

Try this:  BB 73:2  "Coming to his senses, he is revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers.  These memories are a nightmare.  He termbles to think someone might have observed him.  As fast as he can he pushes these memories far inside himself.  He hopes they will never see the light of day ("a sin I would not confess") He is under constant fear and tension---that makes for more drinking."Now, I don't think you have to let at all the secrets to the fellowship at meeting level, but that's exactly what sponsors and a 5th step are for.

I hope this helps.

Roy L.  a.k.a. "a miracle of mental health" class of `78  home email:  royslev@verizon.net

.......................................................   
In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

In his book, The New Group Therapy, Orval Hobart Mowrer (who never used his first name and generally wrote as O. H. Mowrer) said that the phrase was a distillation of his thinking as it developed over the years. Early in his career he was inspired by Harry Stack Sullivan and later by the "reality therapy" of William Glasser. Mowrer's methods were notoriously confrontational, resembling in some ways the popular "gestalt therapy" of the time.There is an interesting coincidence associated with the phrase about sins and secrets. Mowrer said that the inspiration came to him after reading the novel Miraculous Obsession by Lloyd C. Douglas. To me, Mowrer's concept does not seem particularly close to the Douglas one, which was a development of ideas found in the Gospels. However, Mowrer saw it all as one broad insight.

Lloyd C. Douglas was an early admirer of Frank Buchman, going back to the days when both men worked in collegiate ministry. Douglas wrote an article about Buchman around 1914, for a YMCA publication. He also hosted an Oxford Group event in the early 1930s, when he was a minister in Canada. Although supportive, he probably was not a member of the Oxford Group.

So the sins and secrets phrase has a nice provenance. It is also associated with the most confrontational branch of rehab philosophy. The legacy of O. H. Mowrer is strongest in substance abuse treatment programs for criminal offenders, but is also found in other old-school, high-confrontation, low-empathy environments. This may have something to do with Ernie's assessment. The concepts themselves are not altogether bad but they have developed some seamy associations.--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "last_town" wrote:
>
> I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's contention that the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been anathema to the founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery." There is an earlier discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is attributed to Maurer [should be spelled Mowrer], but only a brief mention and it's from 2007.

For the entire text of THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ see
http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

For chapt. 9. "Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey," see
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf




| 10490|10483|2015-01-08 08:25:25|Martin B|Re: Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"|
Hazelden took control of The Little Red Book June 28, 1967.  page 74 The Story Behind the Little Red Book.

The 1986 Second Edition published by Hazelden the word Orthodox was removed.

It would be interesting to find the "smoking gun" that caused such a dramatic change.

| 10491|10473|2015-01-08 08:25:57|khemex@comcast.net|Re: Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose|
In re-reading this excellent article by Harry Tiebout, I find that he used terms like "Immaturity", "omnipotence", "the big E ego" etc. and describes the alcoholic as "king baby", but does not use the terms "childishly immature", " Emotionally oversensitive", or "grandiose" in a complete phrase.  Logic tells me that this wasn't the source since the 12 and 12 where this phrase is used was copyrighted in 1952 and Harry Tiebout's " The Ego Factors In Surrender In Alcoholism wasn't published until 1954.

I'm in the process of re-reading the masterful case study done by the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies from 1948 (Dr. E.M. Jellinek) to see if I can find this phrase!  I'll let you know what I find!

In Love and Service,

Gerry Winkelman


From: "Martin B martinb0858@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2015 9:25:17 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose

 


THE EGO FACTORS
IN SURRENDER IN ALCOHOLISM
Harry M. Tiebout, M.D.



| 10492|10492|2015-01-14 17:27:41|gurubob65|DOROTHY AND HER SISTERS|
I am seeking information on the various sisters of Dorothy S., Clarence’s first wife and their relationship to AA, Hank P., Sylvia K., etc.

Thanks

bob k in whitby

Sent from Windows Mail

| 10493|10493|2015-01-14 18:03:59|AAHistoryLovers|The Unchanging Friend|
From: John B. = jax760@yahoo.com
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Have any of the sleuths of AAHL found any more info on this "a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee)."? This is from the recommended reading list of  the Akron Manual...the only piece I have yet to find and read. Any help would be appreciated.

Regards, John B.
| 10494|10493|2015-01-14 18:04:14|AAHistoryLovers|Re: The Unchanging Friend|
John, neither Mel Barger nor I were able to find any copies of this publication.

For what I have been able to find out, see Glenn F. Chesnut, Father Ed Dowling: Bill Wilson's Sponsor, pages 269-270, the close-to-final draft posted at
either http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.pdf
or http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

    In the 1940’s, A.A. instead embarked on an ever-increasing involvement with the Roman Catholic Church: The reading list in the 1942 Akron Manual excluded all of the older Oxford Group works which some A.A.’s had read during the later 1930’s. But it did have one recommended set of publications that seems to have represented an overture to Roman Catholics: a reference to a series called The Unchanging Friend which was published by a Roman Catholic press, the Bruce Publishing Co. in Milwaukee. This publishing firm, which was founded in 1891 by William George Bruce (1856-1949), operated for seventy-seven years until it was bought in 1968 by Crowell Collier and Macmillan. During some of that period it was the largest Roman Catholic publisher in the world, publishing two thousand books as well as magazines, journals and pamphlets. And the highest levels of Catholicism in turn gave great public honors to Bruce for his service to the Church: he was made a Knight of St. Gregory in 1920 by Pope Benedict XV, an award given to laypeople for extraordinary services to the Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church, and he received the Laetare Medal in 1947 from the University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana, which was possibly the best known Catholic university in America. [See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_George_Bruce.]

    And then past that point, we can see A.A. progressively being pulled deeper and deeper into the Roman Catholic orbit during the 1940’s and 50’s. Sister Ignatia’s alcoholism treatment ward at St. Thomas Hospital, located just across the hall from the balcony entrance to the hospital’s Catholic chapel, had a profound influence on all the many alcoholics who passed through there. And as of 1940, as we have just seen, a Jesuit priest (Father Ed) began serving as the spiritual director and moral guide for Bill Wilson, one of the co-founders.

    In 1943, Father Ralph Pfau, a diocesan priest in Indianapolis became the first alcoholic Roman Catholic priest to get sober in A.A., and became over the course of the next twenty-some years one of the four most-published A.A. authors. The well-known American mystery writer Austin Ripley got sober in 1942, and attempted to start the first treatment center at Hazelden in 1947,  which he intended at that point to be used exclusively for the treatment of alcoholic Roman Catholic priests. 

    In 1947, Bill W. took instruction in the Catholic faith from the Venerable Fulton J. Sheen, professor at the Catholic University of America and host of the nationally broadcast radio program, the Catholic Hour. In 1952, Father Ed and another Jesuit priest (Father John C. Ford, S.J., America’s most famous Catholic moral theologian of that time) were allowed to vet the manuscript, before it was printed, of the A.A. movement’s second most important book, the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.

    The twenty-year-long association between Father Dowling and Bill Wilson was an important part of this story of A.A.’s mid-century love affair with the Catholic Church.
___________________________________

To see the reading list to which John is referring, see the end of the Akron Manual:
http://hindsfoot.org/AkrMan2.html

| 10495|10481|2015-01-14 18:12:35|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA without God|
From: Larry H = hdmozart
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)
.......................................................
Maybe it's too simple, but this statement by Bill W settled the issue for me. It's in the

AA Grapevine July 1946, Vol 3 No 2, "Anarchy Melts"
[reprinted in Language of the Heart pp 32 - The Individual in Relation to AA as a Group]

"In fact, our Tradition carries the principle of independence for the individual to such an apparently fantastic length that, so long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most anti-social, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous Group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti-our Recovery Program, even anti-each other--these rampant individuals are still an A.A. Group if they think so!"

Bill didn't leave any wiggle room.
.......................................................
Remember the hand written comment in the Original Manuscript: "We have said constantly the trouble with organized religion is that they try to dogmatically pour people into molds. So why should we give specific instructions in the book such as saying do this and do that? You can obscure many alcoholics"
.......................................................
Also see the remarks in AA Grapevine July 1965, vol 22, no 2
"Responsibility Is Our Theme in AA's Thirtieth Year"
[reprinted in Language of the Heart, pp 328]

"It is an historical fact that practically all groupings of men and women tend to become more dogmatic; their beliefs and practices harden and sometimes freeze. This is a natural and almost inevitable process. All people must, of course, rally to the call of their convictions, and we of AA are no exception. Moreover, all people should have the right to voice their convictions. This is good principle and good dogma. But dogma also has its liabilities. Simply because we have convictions that work well for us, it becomes very easy to assume that we have all the truth. Whenever this brand of arrogance develops, we are certain to become aggressive; we demand agreement with us; we play God. This isn't good dogma; it's very bad dogma. It could be especially destructive for us of AA to indulge in this sort of thing."

"Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. We have people of nearly every race, culture and religion. In AA we are supposed to be bound together in the kinship of a common suffering. Consequently, the full individual liberty to practice any creed or principle or therapy whatever should be a first consideration for us all. Let us not, therefore, pressure anyone with our individual or even our collective views. Let us instead accord each other the respect and love that is due to every human being as he tries to make his way toward the light. Let us always try to be inclusive rather than exclusive; let us remember that each alcoholic among us is a member of AA, so long as he or she so declares."
.......................................................
Again, Bill seems to have pretty much covered the issue - I dunno about an Intergroup delisting or refusing to list groups it deems not to be an "AA Group" - I thought (yeah, an opinion, we all got one) that Intergroups, Central Service Offices, etc., were to serve the groups, not regulate or control them - Bill would admonish them to "try to be inclusive rather than exclusive." 

Trying to be helpful, Larry H

| 10496|10481|2015-01-14 18:12:39|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA without God|
From: (suddenturtle at yahoo.com)

What about if there are two alcoholics who are NOT alcoholics of the "hopeless variety."  These two alcoholics are NOT powerless and don't need to work the 12 Steps and pray to the Power of the 12 Steps.

Can these two alcoholics who are NOT 12 Steppers form an AA group?

In 1975 AA World Services started to publish the AA Conference Approved book Living Sober. Can they hold meetings that study the Living Sober text instead of the Big Book? What does AA history tell us about the  Living Sober textbook?

| 10497|10497|2015-01-16 13:08:39|JohnGaltLives|"The Multilith Manuscript"--Question About A Copy|
I recently acquired a ringbound copy of the pre-publication "multilith" edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous".  It is bound in plain cardstock and has a frontispiece illustration of "Where It All Began--Dr. Bob's House" and the address.  The title page states that it is "from a copy of the original manuscript".  It appears as if it may be a high quality plain paper photocopy but I cannot be sure.

It appears to be relatively recent in origin--paper is bright white, etc. (the paper is not watermarked so far as I can see)  This is not the Hazelden book containing facsimiles of the original manuscript with handwritten corrections, etc.  It is also certainly not the text of the Big Book as eventually published in 1939--there were a lot of changes between this version and what we now know as "the first 164 pages". 

My question: does anyone have any idea when this version may have been published or by whom?  It bears no markings to indicate that it was issued by AA, though the page with Dr. Bob's house on it suggests that it may have come from the store there.  I assume I do not have a rarity, but I've certainly never seen a copy like this before, and new or old, perhaps it's the closest thing I will ever have to a 1st Edition Big Book.  A welcome addition to my AA collection one way or the other.  But if anyone can provide any details at all, I would most appreciate it!

I may be a 12-Stepper, but that has yet to stop me from asking questions!

Dave M.


| 10498|10483|2015-01-16 13:52:48|Tom Hickcox|Re: Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"|
On 1/7/2015 20:07, Martin B martinb0858@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
Hazelden took control of The Little Red Book June 28, 1967.  page 74 The Story Behind the Little Red Book.

The 1986 Second Edition published by Hazelden the word Orthodox was removed.

It would be interesting to find the "smoking gun" that caused such a dramatic change.

Good info, thanks for posting it.

Does the 1986 Second Edition have a 1986 copyright?  I don't have many of the later printings.

Tommy H


| 10499|10434|2015-01-16 13:59:17|hdmozart|Re: Bill W.'s Brawl With A Taxi Driver|
I found this one little tidbit from "Bill W. and Mr. Wilson: The Legend and Life of A.A.'s Cofounder" by Mathew I. Raphael - it is contained in 'Notes to Chapter 3' on pp 183 -

11. This is one of the details contested by Rumbarger, who finds it improbable that Wilson would have been dismissed, as he claimed, "as the result of a brawl with a taxi driver" (AA, p. 4). "A more likely explanation," Rumbarger supposes, "can be found in the circumstances of the Depression. With very little demand for speculative stocks, Standard and Poor simply reduced its overhead and discharged the now redundant Bill W--a circumstance more than likely to have produced a fight or some such altercation from someone of Bill W's temperament" ("The 'Story' of Bill W," p. 767). This alternative "explanation," however, is a tissue of unfounded speculation, lacking even the possibly questionable authority of Wilsons own recollections.

The article cited is from "Contemporary Drug Problems", Winter 1993, pp 759-782 - The "story" of Bill W: ideology, culture, and the discovery of the modern alcoholic

By John J Rumbarger

John J Rumbarger (705 E St., SE, Washington, DC 20003) is a historian and the author of Profits, Power and Prohibition: Alcohol Reform and the Industrializing of America 1800-1930 (1989)
| 10500|10473|2015-01-16 14:42:32|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose|



From Cora Finch and suddenturtle

.......................................................

From: corafinch@yahoo.com (corafinch at yahoo.com)

True, 12 and 12 was published earlier than Tiebout's Ego Factors article. But Teibout gives a 1937 article by Sandor Rado as a partial source for those ideas. I'm not sure if the reference to the Rado article appears in Ego Factors or another of his articles on the same topic, but there are articles in the Quarterly Journal going back to the mid-1940s indicating that Tiebout's thinking was similar then. Bill W. was in close contact with him during those years.

On the other hand, Tiebout gets credit for pointing out that those personality factors develop during and as a result of the progression of alcoholism. Not all psychiatrists were as kind. Tiebout's position was that before getting roped in, the alcoholic was a different person, and that person would emerge again if the factors keeping the drinking going were interrupted. He vacillated on this point in his later writings, but early on it was his view, and he never said he had been wrong about it.

I don't think that what Bill meant by "study" was along the lines of surveys such as Jellenik's. He was reflecting what psychiatrists and other experts said. Some of what they said was truly bizarre, and in spite of Tiebout's commonsense wisdom he was not immune.

.......................................................

From: suddenturtle@yahoo.com (suddenturtle at yahoo.com)

Harry Tiebout MD wrote a paper that was published for the January 1944 issue of American Journal of Psychiatry.  It was about Alcoholics Anonymous.  Dr. Tiebout also read this paper first at the ninety-ninth annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association, Detroit Michigan, May 10-13, 1943.

The paper was  entitled "Therapeutic Mechanism of Alcoholics Anonymous"and  is reprinted in the AA Conference Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age.

Dr. Tiebout received one of the original copies of the Big Book in 1939 and had connections with Bill Wilson and other AA members dating from that year.  Dr. Tiebout served as Bill Wilson's psychiatrist for a period of time. 
 
Reading through Dr. Tiebout's paper it becomes clear that Dr. Tiebout thought that the low bottom alcoholics of the "hopeless variety" who first came into AA in the 1930's  suffered from narcissism and a host of personality defects, including extreme self centeredness and ego mania. .  Dr. Tiebout observed that most of these low bottom hopeless alcoholics thought they were God.  Dr. Tiebout thought that the low bottom alcoholic of the "hopeless variety" must have their ego smashed and stop believing that they were God.  Dr. Tiebout thought the Power of the 12 Step program of the Big Book (enabling a belief in God the Father - God as we understood Him)  provided the mechanism to smash the ego of the egocentric, self centered alcoholic of the "hopeless variety"  who thought they were God.  The Power of the 12 Steps of the Big Book helped the alcoholic of the hopeless variety to stop playing God and embrace humility.



| 10501|10473|2015-01-16 14:57:35|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Alcoholics are childish, emotionally sensitive, and grandiose|
From Cora Finch and suddenturtle

.......................................................

From: corafinch@yahoo.com (corafinch at yahoo.com)

True, 12 and 12 was published earlier than Tiebout's Ego Factors article. But Teibout gives a 1937 article by Sandor Rado as a partial source for those ideas. I'm not sure if the reference to the Rado article appears in Ego Factors or another of his articles on the same topic, but there are articles in the Quarterly Journal going back to the mid-1940s indicating that Tiebout's thinking was similar then. Bill W. was in close contact with him during those years.

On the other hand, Tiebout gets credit for pointing out that those personality factors develop during and as a result of the progression of alcoholism. Not all psychiatrists were as kind. Tiebout's position was that before getting roped in, the alcoholic was a different person, and that person would emerge again if the factors keeping the drinking going were interrupted. He vacillated on this point in his later writings, but early on it was his view, and he never said he had been wrong about it.

I don't think that what Bill meant by "study" was along the lines of surveys such as Jellenik's. He was reflecting what psychiatrists and other experts said. Some of what they said was truly bizarre, and in spite of Tiebout's commonsense wisdom he was not immune.

.......................................................

From: suddenturtle@yahoo.com (suddenturtle at yahoo.com)

Harry Tiebout MD wrote a paper that was published for the January 1944 issue of American Journal of Psychiatry.  It was about Alcoholics Anonymous.  Dr. Tiebout also read this paper first at the ninety-ninth annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association, Detroit Michigan, May 10-13, 1943.

The paper was  entitled "Therapeutic Mechanism of Alcoholics Anonymous"and  is reprinted in the AA Conference Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age.

Dr. Tiebout received one of the original copies of the Big Book in 1939 and had connections with Bill Wilson and other AA members dating from that year.  Dr. Tiebout served as Bill Wilson's psychiatrist for a period of time. 
 
Reading through Dr. Tiebout's paper it becomes clear that Dr. Tiebout thought that the low bottom alcoholics of the "hopeless variety" who first came into AA in the 1930's  suffered from narcissism and a host of personality defects, including extreme self centeredness and ego mania. .  Dr. Tiebout observed that most of these low bottom hopeless alcoholics thought they were God.  Dr. Tiebout thought that the low bottom alcoholic of the "hopeless variety" must have their ego smashed and stop believing that they were God.  Dr. Tiebout thought the Power of the 12 Step program of the Big Book (enabling a belief in God the Father - God as we understood Him)  provided the mechanism to smash the ego of the egocentric, self centered alcoholic of the "hopeless variety"  who thought they were God.  The Power of the 12 Steps of the Big Book helped the alcoholic of the hopeless variety to stop playing God and embrace humility.

| 10502|10481|2015-01-16 15:06:13|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA without God|
From Mike B. (Birmingham, England), jax760, and Barefoot Bill
.......................................................
From: Mike B. (Birmingham) = ukmikeb@yahoo.co.uk 
(ukmikeb at yahoo.co.uk)
We have living sober meetings in the UK and they work very well.
Mike B, Birmingham, England
.......................................................
From: jax760@yahoo.com (jax760 at yahoo.com)
I think the issue is less about whether or not they can call themselves an AA Group but more about can they post the altered twelve steps on the wall or publish in some fashion and still call themselves an AA group. Not necessarily pro or con but what if every group altered the steps as they saw fit and then had printed on window shades? If you list a meeting with Intergroup a newcomer should find AA's twelve steps on the wall (if "steps" are hung on the wall) or is it ok for any or every group to post their own version and still be listed in the meeting book? Our common welfare comes first...personal recovery depends on AA unity?
.......................................................
From: barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net)
Obviously, personal belief and changing the AA Program of Recovery are two completely different things.  There has always been and probably always will be people in AA who at first had issues with the God thing.  What has always worked best is to adapt ourselves to the Program, not try to get the Program to adapt itself to us.  But that is not why these groups have been appropriately removed from Intergroup meeting lists.  They are being removed because they are displaying an alternate version of the 12 Steps that removes all references to God.  This is obviously against the 12 Traditions (Tradition 4 specifically) because, in a very major way, it affects other groups and AA as a whole.  AA has rightfully taken an important stand on NOT changing our Program of Recovery otherwise known as the 12 Steps.

Also, about the sentence in the 1946 Grapevine article by Bill W., in 1946 there were no official 12 Traditions yet.  This article is just the opinion of one AA member, just like all other Grapevine articles, lacking Conference approval.  Also, back in those days, an example of the pre-Tradition silliness going on is that some places served beer at their AA meetings because they didn't think beer was "alcohol".  I can only imagine if that practice continued that there would probably be no AA today.

I still say that these Atheist groups (as they originally called themselves) should be encouraged to start their own fellowship instead of this constant search for AA loopholes.  Meetings that display changed versions of the 12 Steps, removing all references to God, automatically disqualifies them as an AA meeting and also removes the most important transformational element that has saved my life and the lives of millions for 85 years.  The directions for the 12 Steps as originally found in the Big Book of AA is the most effective way for the most amount of people who have the malady called alcoholism.  When something works so well, there is no reason to change it.  I have NEVER met ANYONE EVER who didn't get amazing results from AA's three part Program of Recovery: (1) working the 12 Steps as if our life depends on it (and continued work with the 12 Steps as a way of life), (2) continuing to go to AA meetings and interacting with other AA members outside of meetings, and (3) continuing to be of service to others, expecting nothing in return.  Like it says in Bill's Story, "I was soon to be catapulted into what I like to call the fourth dimension of existence. I was to know happiness, peace, and usefulness, in a way of life that is incredibly more wonderful as time passes."  When this promise wasn't my experience it was only because I had moved away from some aspect of the three-part Program.  Take it easy and God bless. Just Love, Barefoot Bill

| 10503|10481|2015-01-16 15:44:35|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA without God|
From normtinman and Larry H. (hdmozart)
_______________________________________

From: normtinman@yahoo.com (normtinman at yahoo.com)

Thank God for Bill's foresight -- those 2 articles straightened that issue out for me also -- thank you, Larry.
_______________________________________


Message 10495 from Larry H = hdmozart
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

.......................................................
Maybe it's too simple, but this statement by Bill W settled the issue for me. It's in the

AA Grapevine July 1946, Vol 3 No 2, "Anarchy Melts"
[reprinted in Language of the Heart pp 32 - The Individual in Relation to AA as a Group]

"In fact, our Tradition [talking about the long form of Tradition Three, first published in the Grapevine there in 1946] carries the principle of independence for the individual to such an apparently fantastic length that, so long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most anti-social, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous Group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti-our Recovery Program, even anti-each other--these rampant individuals are still an A.A. Group if they think so!"

Bill didn't leave any wiggle room.
.......................................................
Also see the remarks in AA Grapevine July 1965, vol 22, no 2
"Responsibility Is Our Theme in AA's Thirtieth Year"
[reprinted in Language of the Heart, pp 328]

"It is an historical fact that practically all groupings of men and women tend to become more dogmatic; their beliefs and practices harden and sometimes freeze. This is a natural and almost inevitable process. All people must, of course, rally to the call of their convictions, and we of AA are no exception. Moreover, all people should have the right to voice their convictions. This is good principle and good dogma. But dogma also has its liabilities. Simply because we have convictions that work well for us, it becomes very easy to assume that we have all the truth. Whenever this brand of arrogance develops, we are certain to become aggressive; we demand agreement with us; we play God. This isn't good dogma; it's very bad dogma. It could be especially destructive for us of AA to indulge in this sort of thing."

"Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. We have people of nearly every race, culture and religion. In AA we are supposed to be bound together in the kinship of a common suffering. Consequently, the full individual liberty to practice any creed or principle or therapy whatever should be a first consideration for us all. Let us not, therefore, pressure anyone with our individual or even our collective views. Let us instead accord each other the respect and love that is due to every human being as he tries to make his way toward the light. Let us always try to be inclusive rather than exclusive; let us remember that each alcoholic among us is a member of AA, so long as he or she so declares."
.......................................................

| 10504|10504|2015-01-20 17:31:17|Glenn Chesnut|Very sad news: Ernie Kurtz died last night|
On Jan 20, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Bill White wrote:

I wanted to let all of you know that Ernie died at his home last night after battling pancreatic cancer these past months .... My heart is heavy this morning.  I will miss him dearly.

William L. White, MA
Emeritus Senior Research Consultant
Chestnut Health Systems
Punta Gorda, Florida

.......................................................

From Glenn Chesnut, Moderator of the AAHistoryLovers

Trained as a Catholic priest in the old days, when everybody had to know Latin, Ernie's last words to me were:

"Oremus pro invicem as we used to say."

That means "let us pray for one another." And that was Ernie, wanting to make sure we knew -- in spite of the fact that he was the one who was on hospice care and waiting for the end -- that he was praying back the other way for you and me too.

I still remember meeting him for the first time, when he kindly invited me to have dinner with him at the Akron National Archives Workshop in 1997. That was over seventeen years ago -- such a long time ago!

I am so grateful to God for being allowed to walk together with him for all those seventeen years since. It's been a great journey.

He was one of the kindest, most honest, most caring, most generous men I have ever been privileged to know. He was unfailingly and steadfastly dependable through whatever came his and my way.

I know that the angels will place a starry crown on his head, and that the souls of the just will welcome him with hymns of praise.

I hope he understood all the gratitude I had for all that he had done for me -- and for the rest of us too. We wouldn't have had an AAHistoryLovers group, for example, if he hadn't been there supporting it from the very beginning.

But I am still going through an incredible amount of grief. I will miss him so much.

Glenn

.......................................................

FOUR VIDEOS put together by Bill White
Introduction by Bill White from Reflections by Ernest Kurtz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBsStARfbOg

Reflections - Ernie Kurtz - Chapter 1: The Early History of Alcoholics Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghzITT_0Yuk

Reflections - Ernie Kurtz - Chapter 2: Spirituality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLnLeEDO0Hg

Reflections - Ernie Kurtz - Chapter 3: Shame & Mentoring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtvOdbRy61Q

A VIDEO OF ERNIE prepared by Kevin Hanlon, Dan Carracino, and Bill Schaberg, of
some of Ernie Kurtz's thoughts on researching and writing history.
See the third video on this website, made on October 22, 2013 for showing at the Sedona Mago AA History Symposium Feb. 21-23, 2014:

http://www.page124.com/

SOME PHOTOS:

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/morepix02.html


| 10505|10505|2015-01-21 18:38:01|Onawa La Belle|Traditions applied to personal life|
Hi all,


Does anyone know where I can find a document about practicing the 12 traditions in daily life? I am interested in the principles behind the traditions, and how they can improve our lives when we live by them, not just how they keep AA from falling apart. I am going through the traditions this year with a group of women and the plan is to look at them as they apply to AA (as a whole and the home group), to relationships, and to our daily lives. I have resources for the first two but am having trouble finding something that is simple and well-written for the last one. Any suggestions?


Best,
O
| 10506|10506|2015-01-21 19:00:52|jscinca@aol.com|calvary evangel/shoemaker|
Is anyone aware of an archive of Rev. Shoemakers writing in The Calvary Evangel?

Blessings

Scott C
El Paso Texas
| 10507|10505|2015-01-22 10:37:55|xxpmds|Re: Traditions applied to personal life|
In the March 1955 Grapevine there is an article entitled "Whisper of Humility" which was written by Dr. Earle M., author of Physician Heal Thyself, in the big book.  The article talks of using the 12 Traditions by individuals as an additional 12 steps.
 
In a message dated 1/21/2015 6:38:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com writes:
 



Hi all,

Does anyone know where I can find a document about practicing the 12 traditions in daily life? I am interested in the principles behind the traditions, and how they can improve our lives when we live by them, not just how they keep AA from falling apart. I am going through the traditions this year with a group of women and the plan is to look at them as they apply to AA (as a whole and the home group), to relationships, and to our daily lives. I have resources for the first two but am having trouble finding something that is simple and well-written for the last one. Any suggestions?

Best,
O

| 10508|10505|2015-01-22 10:38:28|kaseysno1fan|Re: Traditions applied to personal life|
I printed the check list for the traditions and change the wording to pertain to my job, home, outsides, etc life
| 10509|10505|2015-01-22 10:38:37|Frederick INGS|Re: Traditions applied to personal life|

Peggy n Dick Martin from Nebraska do 12 Traditions and Relationships/marriage. Ya may be able to find a recording of their workshop talk

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"Onawa La Belle onawalabelle@icloud.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date:Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 9:38 PM
Subject:[AAHistoryLovers] Traditions applied to personal life

 



Hi all,

Does anyone know where I can find a document about practicing the 12 traditions in daily life? I am interested in the principles behind the traditions, and how they can improve our lives when we live by them, not just how they keep AA from falling apart. I am going through the traditions this year with a group of women and the plan is to look at them as they apply to AA (as a whole and the home group), to relationships, and to our daily lives. I have resources for the first two but am having trouble finding something that is simple and well-written for the last one. Any suggestions?

Best,
O

| 10510|10505|2015-01-22 10:39:07|Dani S|Re: Traditions applied to personal life|

I don't know of any that are AA conference-approved, but 1212and12.org has a sort of workbook of shares and inventory questions on each tradition and concept, focusing largely on how we work them in our daily lives; I believe it's used (maybe created) by an AA meeting in the Los Angeles area and perhaps others as well.

- Dani

On Jan 21, 2015 6:38 PM, "Onawa La Belle onawalabelle@icloud.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 



Hi all,

Does anyone know where I can find a document about practicing the 12 traditions in daily life? I am interested in the principles behind the traditions, and how they can improve our lives when we live by them, not just how they keep AA from falling apart. I am going through the traditions this year with a group of women and the plan is to look at them as they apply to AA (as a whole and the home group), to relationships, and to our daily lives. I have resources for the first two but am having trouble finding something that is simple and well-written for the last one. Any suggestions?

Best,
O

| 10511|10511|2015-01-22 16:43:39|AAHistoryLovers|Ernie: Requiescat in pace|
From bear, Rick (Ottawa), Baileygc, tampabayjohn, and Clyde G.
.......................................................
From: bear8512100
Ernie
Requiescat in pace.
See you at the Big Meetin' Downrange,
bear
.......................................................
From: Rick (Ottawa, Ontario) = rickclowater@yahoo.ca
(rickclowater at yahoo.ca)
So sad to hear, he was an influential person in my quest of AA history. Thoughts and prayers to family and friends.
Rick, Uptown Group, Ottawa, Ontario (Canada)
.......................................................
From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
I am saddened to hear of the passing of Ernie.
.......................................................
From: tampabayjohn
(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)
So sorry to lose a wonderful historian of Alcoholics Anonymous!
John Moore
.......................................................
From Clyde G. = cloydg449@yahoo.com
(cloydg449 at yahoo.com)
My condolences Glenn, I know u & Ernie were close friends, my prayers r w/u as well as everyone n da AA community.  In love & service, Clyde G.
.......................................................


| 10512|10512|2015-01-22 16:45:47|AAHistoryLovers|Videos of Ernie Kurtz speaking|
There are five different videos online of Ernie Kurtz speaking, plus some photographs.

.......................................................
A VIDEO OF ERNIE prepared by Bill Schaberg, Kevin Hanlon, and Dan Carracino of some of Ernie Kurtz's thoughts on researching and writing history

(made on October 22, 2013 and shown at the SEDONA MAGO AA HISTORY SYMPOSIUM on Feb. 21-23, 2014)

See the third video on this website:
http://www.page124.com/

or go to Vimeo:  http://vimeo.com/91456549

.......................................................

There are also FOUR VIDEOS put together by Bill White:

Introduction by Bill White from Reflections by Ernest Kurtz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBsStARfbOg

Reflections - Ernie Kurtz - Chapter 1: The Early History of Alcoholics Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghzITT_0Yuk

Reflections - Ernie Kurtz - Chapter 2: Spirituality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLnLeEDO0Hg

Reflections - Ernie Kurtz - Chapter 3: Shame & Mentoring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtvOdbRy61Q

.......................................................

And there are SOME PHOTOS of Ernie at:
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/morepix02.html


| 10513|10513|2015-01-23 16:30:49|AAHistoryLovers|AA in the Military|
Roger W. put together a beautifully thorough account of the early days of AA in the military, which he gave as a talk at the 18th National AA Archives Workshop in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania (Oct. 9-12, 2014). It is a wonderful example of good historical research on a very important topic -- SEE BELOW for more about that.

A recording of the talk may be obtained from
http://www.justloveaudio.com/ (phone 973 506-4162).

Glenn C. also participated, by means of a video presentation on William E. Swegan, who put together the first officially sanctioned alcoholism treatment programs in the U.S. military. The audio of Glenn C's talk did not copy well onto the JustLoveAudio CD disks, SO A COPY HAS BEEN PUT ONLINE AT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRvuVXl3y0g&feature=youtu.be

(With other recordings of Glenn C. from Castanea Recordings at
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/audindex.html )


This topic -- AA in the Military -- will need to be discussed in any full multivolume account of AA history:

IT IS AN IMPORTANT TOPIC IN ITSELF: when the United States was drawn into the Second World War, it was the first time the AA program was put to the full test. Yes, it had been seen that the niceties of behaving according to the twelve steps could work in the comparatively stress free life of peacetime U.S.A., but could it work with alcoholics who were huddled in trenches, being shot at and bombed, and faced with death surrounding them on every side? And the answer was that yes it could and it did, and even fewer of the alcoholics in AA went back to drinking in the military than in civilian life.

The twelve steps form a program which works for people who have not yet truly lost it all, but it seems especially made for people who have suffered real horror and real trauma of the worst kinds: war, PTSD, rape, incest, physical abuse, prison, slums where crime and violence are everywhere, situations where they suffered as victims of satanic cults or child molestation, and on and on through a nightmare world. AA in the Military was the first place where the program proved its ability to handle even the dark places where everyone else was too scared to enter.

Furthermore, the first AA group established in many countries of the world was an English-language group for American military personnel stationed there. But from that first little beachhead, additional groups would then start to be formed, for the people who lived in that country, and using the native language of the land. So AA in the Military is part of the foundation of the story of the Spread of AA to the Rest of the World.

Roger W. has created a really good piece of work.

| 10514|10514|2015-01-25 12:03:21|Thomas B.|Query about Bill Wilson/Nell Wing Draft Manuscript about Spiritualit|
Hello,

New member here. Got sober in NYC in October, 1972.

In the 80s and 90s, I was privileged to know Nell Wing, visiting her apartment in Stuyvesant Town several times. She had 35 or so legal size boxes in her apartment, which she said were copies of Bill Wilson's memoranda, correspondence, writing projects, etc. ,Included, she told me, was a draft manuscript that she and Bill had worked on over the years concerning generic spirituality from all the world wisdom traditions. As I recall, she said it described the evolution of Bill's spiritual beliefs from 1935 through the latter years of his life. Much of what has been published indicates that Bill was most eclectic and all-inclusive in his spiritual beliefs, being most gratified, for example, when Buddhists could readily adopt the suggested 12-steps simply by substituting "good" for God. Nell told me that she herself was a follower of the Greek philosopher Epicurus.

I visited the AA Archives this summer, but could find nothing regarding this manuscript. The current AA Archivist, Michelle Mizra suggested that it might be at Stepping Stones. Yesterday, I had a long conversation with Sally Corbett, Executive Director of Stepping Stone, but she also could find no reference to it.

Does anyone here know anything about this manuscript? 
| 10515|10515|2015-01-25 13:13:09|AAHistoryLovers|The Power of Fellowship (1) Johann Hari|
The Power of Fellowship (1) Johann Hari

The psychosocial study of alcoholism and recovery

This article was just put on the Huffington Post Politics Blog five days ago. We may be hearing more about it on the internet and in newspaper and magazine articles in the days ahead -- or from newcomers sent to the program, who want to argue about it.

At one level, it is not really new information -- see the next posted message here in the AAHistoryLovers -- but was observed in AA circles going back to the very beginning, that is, the observation that one of the strongest curative forces at work in the program is THE POWER OF FELLOWSHIP.

.......................................................
Johann Hari, "The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered,
and It Is Not What You Think"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Posted Jan. 20, 2015

It is now one hundred years since drugs were first banned -- and all through this long century of waging war on drugs, we have been told a story about addiction by our teachers and by our governments. This story is so deeply ingrained in our minds that we take it for granted. It seems obvious. It seems manifestly true. Until I set off three and a half years ago on a 30,000-mile journey for my new book, Chasing The Scream: The First And Last Days of the War on Drugs, to figure out what is really driving the drug war, I believed it too. But what I learned on the road is that almost everything we have been told about addiction is wrong -- and there is a very different story waiting for us, if only we are ready to hear it.

If we truly absorb this new story, we will have to change a lot more than the drug war. We will have to change ourselves.

I learned it from an extraordinary mixture of people I met on my travels. From the surviving friends of Billie Holiday, who helped me to learn how the founder of the war on drugs stalked and helped to kill her. From a Jewish doctor who was smuggled out of the Budapest ghetto as a baby, only to unlock the secrets of addiction as a grown man. From a transsexual crack dealer in Brooklyn who was conceived when his mother, a crack-addict, was raped by his father, an NYPD officer. From a man who was kept at the bottom of a well for two years by a torturing dictatorship, only to emerge to be elected President of Uruguay and to begin the last days of the war on drugs.

I had a quite personal reason to set out for these answers. One of my earliest memories as a kid is trying to wake up one of my relatives, and not being able to. Ever since then, I have been turning over the essential mystery of addiction in my mind -- what causes some people to become fixated on a drug or a behavior until they can't stop? How do we help those people to come back to us? As I got older, another of my close relatives developed a cocaine addiction, and I fell into a relationship with a heroin addict. I guess addiction felt like home to me.

If you had asked me what causes drug addiction at the start, I would have looked at you as if you were an idiot, and said: "Drugs. Duh." It's not difficult to grasp. I thought I had seen it in my own life. We can all explain it. Imagine if you and I and the next twenty people to pass us on the street take a really potent drug for twenty days. There are strong chemical hooks in these drugs, so if we stopped on day twenty-one, our bodies would need the chemical. We would have a ferocious craving. We would be addicted. That's what addiction means.

One of the ways this theory was first established is through rat experiments -- ones that were injected into the American psyche in the 1980s, in a famous advert by the Partnership for a Drug-Free America. You may remember it. The experiment is simple. Put a rat in a cage, alone, with two water bottles. One is just water. The other is water laced with heroin or cocaine. Almost every time you run this experiment, the rat will become obsessed with the drugged water, and keep coming back for more and more, until it kills itself.

The advert explains: "Only one drug is so addictive, nine out of ten laboratory rats will use it. And use it. And use it. Until dead. It's called cocaine. And it can do the same thing to you."

But in the 1970s, a professor of Psychology in Vancouver called Bruce Alexander noticed something odd about this experiment. The rat is put in the cage all alone. It has nothing to do but take the drugs. What would happen, he wondered, if we tried this differently? So Professor Alexander built Rat Park. It is a lush cage where the rats would have colored balls and the best rat-food and tunnels to scamper down and plenty of friends: everything a rat about town could want. What, Alexander wanted to know, will happen then?

In Rat Park, all the rats obviously tried both water bottles, because they didn't know what was in them. But what happened next was startling.

The rats with good lives didn't like the drugged water. They mostly shunned it, consuming less than a quarter of the drugs the isolated rats used. None of them died. While all the rats who were alone and unhappy became heavy users, none of the rats who had a happy environment did.

At first, I thought this was merely a quirk of rats, until I discovered that there was -- at the same time as the Rat Park experiment -- a helpful human equivalent taking place. It was called the Vietnam War. Time magazine reported using heroin was "as common as chewing gum" among U.S. soldiers, and there is solid evidence to back this up: some 20 percent of U.S. soldiers had become addicted to heroin there, according to a study published in the Archives of General Psychiatry. Many people were understandably terrified; they believed a huge number of addicts were about to head home when the war ended.

But in fact some 95 percent of the addicted soldiers -- according to the same study -- simply stopped. Very few had rehab. They shifted from a terrifying cage back to a pleasant one, so didn't want the drug any more.

Professor Alexander argues this discovery is a profound challenge both to the right-wing view that addiction is a moral failing caused by too much hedonistic partying, and the liberal view that addiction is a disease taking place in a chemically hijacked brain. In fact, he argues, addiction is an adaptation. It's not you. It's your cage.

After the first phase of Rat Park, Professor Alexander then took this test further. He reran the early experiments, where the rats were left alone, and became compulsive users of the drug. He let them use for fifty-seven days -- if anything can hook you, it's that. Then he took them out of isolation, and placed them in Rat Park. He wanted to know, if you fall into that state of addiction, is your brain hijacked, so you can't recover? Do the drugs take you over? What happened is -- again -- striking. The rats seemed to have a few twitches of withdrawal, but they soon stopped their heavy use, and went back to having a normal life. The good cage saved them. (The full references to all the studies I am discussing are in the book.)

When I first learned about this, I was puzzled. How can this be? This new theory is such a radical assault on what we have been told that it felt like it could not be true. But the more scientists I interviewed, and the more I looked at their studies, the more I discovered things that don't seem to make sense -- unless you take account of this new approach.

Here's one example of an experiment that is happening all around you, and may well happen to you one day. If you get run over today and you break your hip, you will probably be given diamorphine, the medical name for heroin. In the hospital around you, there will be plenty of people also given heroin for long periods, for pain relief. The heroin you will get from the doctor will have a much higher purity and potency than the heroin being used by street-addicts, who have to buy from criminals who adulterate it. So if the old theory of addiction is right -- it's the drugs that cause it; they make your body need them -- then it's obvious what should happen. Loads of people should leave the hospital and try to score smack on the streets to meet their habit.

But here's the strange thing: It virtually never happens. As the Canadian doctor Gabor Mate was the first to explain to me, medical users just stop, despite months of use. The same drug, used for the same length of time, turns street-users into desperate addicts and leaves medical patients unaffected.

If you still believe -- as I used to -- that addiction is caused by chemical hooks, this makes no sense. But if you believe Bruce Alexander's theory, the picture falls into place. The street-addict is like the rats in the first cage, isolated, alone, with only one source of solace to turn to. The medical patient is like the rats in the second cage. She is going home to a life where she is surrounded by the people she loves. The drug is the same, but the environment is different.

This gives us an insight that goes much deeper than the need to understand addicts. Professor Peter Cohen argues that human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It's how we get our satisfaction. If we can't connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find -- the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about 'addiction' altogether, and instead call it 'bonding.' A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn't bond as fully with anything else.

So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection.

When I learned all this, I found it slowly persuading me, but I still couldn't shake off a nagging doubt. Are these scientists saying chemical hooks make no difference? It was explained to me -- you can become addicted to gambling, and nobody thinks you inject a pack of cards into your veins. You can have all the addiction, and none of the chemical hooks. I went to a Gamblers' Anonymous meeting in Las Vegas (with the permission of everyone present, who knew I was there to observe) and they were as plainly addicted as the cocaine and heroin addicts I have known in my life. Yet there are no chemical hooks on a craps table.

But still, surely, I asked, there is some role for the chemicals? It turns out there is an experiment which gives us the answer to this in quite precise terms, which I learned about in Richard DeGrandpre's book The Cult of Pharmacology.

Everyone agrees cigarette smoking is one of the most addictive processes around. The chemical hooks in tobacco come from a drug inside it called nicotine. So when nicotine patches were developed in the early 1990s, there was a huge surge of optimism -- cigarette smokers could get all of their chemical hooks, without the other filthy (and deadly) effects of cigarette smoking. They would be freed.

But the Office of the Surgeon General has found that just 17.7 percent of cigarette smokers are able to stop using nicotine patches. That's not nothing. If the chemicals drive 17.7 percent of addiction, as this shows, that's still millions of lives ruined globally. But what it reveals again is that the story we have been taught about The Cause of Addiction lying with chemical hooks is, in fact, real, but only a minor part of a much bigger picture.

This has huge implications for the one-hundred-year-old war on drugs. This massive war -- which, as I saw, kills people from the malls of Mexico to the streets of Liverpool -- is based on the claim that we need to physically eradicate a whole array of chemicals because they hijack people's brains and cause addiction. But if drugs aren't the driver of addiction -- if, in fact, it is disconnection that drives addiction -- then this makes no sense.

Ironically, the war on drugs actually increases all those larger drivers of addiction. For example, I went to a prison in Arizona -- 'Tent City' -- where inmates are detained in tiny stone isolation cages ('The Hole') for weeks and weeks on end to punish them for drug use. It is as close to a human recreation of the cages that guaranteed deadly addiction in rats as I can imagine. And when those prisoners get out, they will be unemployable because of their criminal record -- guaranteeing they with be cut off ever more. I watched this playing out in the human stories I met across the world.

There is an alternative. You can build a system that is designed to help drug addicts to reconnect with the world -- and so leave behind their addictions.

This isn't theoretical. It is happening. I have seen it. Nearly fifteen years ago, Portugal had one of the worst drug problems in Europe, with 1 percent of the population addicted to heroin. They had tried a drug war, and the problem just kept getting worse. So they decided to do something radically different. They resolved to decriminalize all drugs, and transfer all the money they used to spend on arresting and jailing drug addicts, and spend it instead on reconnecting them -- to their own feelings, and to the wider society. The most crucial step is to get them secure housing, and subsidized jobs so they have a purpose in life, and something to get out of bed for. I watched as they are helped, in warm and welcoming clinics, to learn how to reconnect with their feelings, after years of trauma and stunning them into silence with drugs.

One example I learned about was a group of addicts who were given a loan to set up a removals firm. Suddenly, they were a group, all bonded to each other, and to the society, and responsible for each other's care.

The results of all this are now in. An independent study by the British Journal of Criminology found that since total decriminalization, addiction has fallen, and injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. I'll repeat that: injecting drug use is down by 50 percent. Decriminalization has been such a manifest success that very few people in Portugal want to go back to the old system. The main campaigner against the decriminalization back in 2000 was Joao Figueira, the country's top drug cop. He offered all the dire warnings that we would expect from the Daily Mail or Fox News. But when we sat together in Lisbon, he told me that everything he predicted had not come to pass -- and he now hopes the whole world will follow Portugal's example.

This isn't only relevant to the addicts I love. It is relevant to all of us, because it forces us to think differently about ourselves. Human beings are bonding animals. We need to connect and love. The wisest sentence of the twentieth century was E.M. Forster's -- "only connect." But we have created an environment and a culture that cut us off from connection, or offer only the parody of it offered by the Internet. The rise of addiction is a symptom of a deeper sickness in the way we live -- constantly directing our gaze towards the next shiny object we should buy, rather than the human beings all around us.

The writer George Monbiot has called this "the age of loneliness." We have created human societies where it is easier for people to become cut off from all human connections than ever before. Bruce Alexander -- the creator of Rat Park -- told me that for too long, we have talked exclusively about individual recovery from addiction. We need now to talk about social recovery -- how we all recover, together, from the sickness of isolation that is sinking on us like a thick fog.

But this new evidence isn't just a challenge to us politically. It doesn't just force us to change our minds. It forces us to change our hearts.

Loving an addict is really hard. When I looked at the addicts I love, it was always tempting to follow the tough love advice doled out by reality shows like Intervention -- tell the addict to shape up, or cut them off. Their message is that an addict who won't stop should be shunned. It's the logic of the drug war, imported into our private lives. But in fact, I learned, that will only deepen their addiction -- and you may lose them altogether. I came home determined to tie the addicts in my life closer to me than ever -- to let them know I love them unconditionally, whether they stop, or whether they can't.

When I returned from my long journey, I looked at my ex-boyfriend, in withdrawal, trembling on my spare bed, and I thought about him differently. For a century now, we have been singing war songs about addicts. It occurred to me as I wiped his brow, we should have been singing love songs to them all along.

The full story of Johann Hari's journey -- told through the stories of the people he met -- can be read in Chasing The Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs, published by Bloomsbury. The book has been praised by everyone from Elton John to Glenn Greenwald to Naomi Klein. You can buy it at all good bookstores and read more at www.chasingthescream.com.
.......................................................


| 10516|10516|2015-01-25 13:13:35|Glenn Chesnut|The Power of Fellowship (2) Jim Burwell and Annette Smith|
The Power of Fellowship (2) Jim Burwell and Annette Smith

The psychosocial study of alcoholism and recovery

One important thing observed in AA circles going back to the very beginning, was that one of the strongest curative forces at work in the program was THE POWER OF FELLOWSHIP.

.......................................................
"Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist," by Glenn Chesnut

http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html

The A.A. Fellowship itself became atheist Jimmy Burwell's Higher Power for his first two years in the program (1938-1940).

In the years since then, this technique has been used by generations of atheists and agnostics who came into the program

.......................................................
Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works (2007).

In recent years, possibly the best sociological analysis ever produced of how AA works at that level, was written by a woman who worked extensively with alcoholics for many years in San Diego, and approached the problem of how AA works from the viewpoint of a sociologist who did not believe in God, but wanted what she regarded as a more scientific explanation.

Dr. Smith showed how developing a real sense of membership in the AA fellowship and a sense of inclusion in the group, would work (in good sociological fashion) to start changing the person's values and goals at the most basic level. But you had to come to really identify with the group, you could not just be like a "tourist" passing through and looking at a distance at all the curious natives and their quaint ideas and customs. Smith talks with expertise about the different stages the newcomer passes through, in moving from "tourist" to someone who feels like he or she truly belongs.

Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works (2007).

With an introduction by Ernie Kurtz's wife Linda Farris Kurtz, DPA, Professor Emeritus, Eastern Michigan University School of Social Work, author of Self-Help and Support Groups: A Handbook for Practitioners.

http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html

"Using qualitative field study, including participant observation and unstructured interviewing, this work focuses on Alcoholics Anonymous as a social world. The social organization of A.A. is linked to social world constructs, and aspects of A.A. social life, both formal and informal, are described. It is suggested that success in A.A. is dependent on integration into the social world, and that there are variations in the interactional processes by which this is achieved."

"Data is presented to illustrate that integration into the social world leads to the A.A. conversion, a transformation of self-identity in which the alcoholic accepts at the deepest level of being that he or she is alcoholic and that recovery depends on the acceptance of A.A. values and practice of A.A. principles. A typology of A.A. social world participants is established which is informed by high or low levels of affiliative needs and group dependency, group- versus individual-focused social world participation, and affective versus cognitive conversion experiences."
.......................................................


| 10517|10505|2015-01-25 13:23:51|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Traditions applied to personal life|
From bear, joetconroy, Peter N., freestudent

.......................................................
From: bear8512100 (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)

Houston Al-Anon has one worked up for "Traditions As A guide for Healthy Relationships."

Best regards, J.Barry Murtaugh Court Maroon, Ltd. 773-851-2100

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015, kaseysno1fan@yahoo.com wrote: I printed the check list for the traditions and change the wording to pertain to my job, home, outsides, etc life.
.......................................................
From: joetconroy (joetconroy at yahoo.com)

From my own experience, I have found Dr. Paul's book, "There's More to Quitting Drinking Than Quitting Drinking" a real useful tool for your purpose.
.......................................................
From: Peter N. = r_peter2003
(fivequestionsguy at gmail.com)

There are several excellent articles at JustLoveAudio.com.  Click on Resources, then click on 12 Traditions.

Enjoy! Peter N.
.......................................................
From: freestudent89cv (cvinci at pohankaofsalisbury.com)

Onawa, I’ve used these packets with just a few of the girls I’ve worked with. When we tried to do it with a group of girls, it went south, VERY quickly. Could’ve been the people rather than the material? At any rate, the few I’ve gone thru this with found it helpful. Maybe the rest just wouldn’t relinquish their ‘significant others’ to His Power. I frequently encounter girls who won’t believe their marriage or relationships fall under the category of ‘all my affairs’. I don’t try to convince these who ‘scarcely need comforting’. When their relationships go down the drain, the principles become more attractive.

My husband and I both practice some of these ideas and share with each other about it. We do NOT use these as manuals for our marriage or study material for head-shrinking each other; just additional material to enhance our connection to God and one other. God’s the final judge, we are NOT. My husband and I are both recovered long-timers in AA, have extensive drug histories & work with members of the same sex in AA out of respect for our marriage and preserving its sanctity.

He used it with one of his guys; it didn’t go over too well. The guy wasn’t convinced his sex relations were any of God’s business. He’s no longer with us.

These came from justloveaudio resources, and an Alanon friend? (not sure)

Christa Vinci

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 to AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Traditions applied to personal life
Hi all, Does anyone know where I can find a document about practicing the 12 traditions in daily life? I am interested in the principles behind the traditions, and how they can improve our lives when we live by them, not just how they keep AA from falling apart. I am going through the traditions this year with a group of women and the plan is to look at them as they apply to AA (as a whole and the home group), to relationships, and to our daily lives. I have resources for the first two but am having trouble finding something that is simple and well-written for the last one. Any suggestions? Best, O

.......................................................



| 10518|10518|2015-01-25 13:52:32|AAHistoryLovers|Ernest Kurtz Obituary|
Published in the Ann Arbor News from Jan. 22 to Jan. 25, 2015

http://obits.mlive.com/obituaries/annarbor/obituary.aspx?pid=173939349

Kurtz, Ernest 9/9/1935 - 1/19/2015

Age 79, died Monday January 19 of pancreatic cancer at his home in Ann Arbor, MI.

He was the author of Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous (1979), The Spirituality of Imperfection (1992) and Experiencing Spirituality (2014) with Katherine Ketcham, Shame and Guilt: Characteristics of the Dependency Cycle (1981), 90 Meetings in 90 Days (1984), A.A.: The Story (1988), and The Collected Ernie Kurtz (1999), as well as a multitude of monographs and articles on the intellectual significance of A.A., recovery, and spirituality.

His collected papers are available at http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/ernie kurtz/

Ernest Kurtz was born in Rochester, NY, the son of Edward and Josephine Kurzejewski. He entered St. Bernard's Seminary and College where he earned a BA in philosophy and then entered the priesthood in 1961 and served as a priest in Our Lady of Good Counsel parish in Rochester, New York from 1961 to 1966.

He entered Harvard University in 1966, where he earned Ph.D. in the History of American Civilization in 1978.

He is survived by his wife of thirty-four years, Linda Farris Kurtz of Ann Arbor, and his sister, Mary Ann Kurtz Allen of Concord, MA.

Not God was originally a Harvard doctoral dissertation completed in 1978 and then published as a book by Hazelden in Center City, MN. The book has been read by scores of recovering people and their families as well as researchers and scholars over the years and is still in print. His research in the A.A. Archives was unprecedented and informed much of the A.A. story he told, but in addition, Kurtz' analysis of the source of A.A.'s ideas, the origins of the "big book," its development in the Great Depression directed attention to the fellowship's historical significance in the larger context of American history. Kurtz' analysis of A.A.'s spirituality helped many members appreciate A.A.'s understanding of a higher power and the Twelve Steps and to see how they differed from formal religion.

Kurtz left the priesthood in the late 1970s and took his first post-Ph.D. teaching position at the University of Georgia in 1979. He taught for many years at the Rutgers University Summer Schools on Alcohol Studies and at the School of Social Service Administration Summer Institutes. He taught briefly at Loyola University of Chicago before becoming Director of Research and Education at Guest House in Lake Orion, Michigan. He later moved to Ann Arbor where he consulted at the Center for Self-help Research and with researchers in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Michigan.

He will be remembered for his lectures and workshop presentations throughout the United States and the rest of the world, and later for his mentorship to many new scholars in the field and for his contributions to the AA History Lovers webgroup.

His work continued up until four days before his death.

A memorial service is scheduled for April 22, 2015 1 PM at Dawn Farm on Stoney Creek Road in Ypsilanti. Donations in his honor can go to Dawn Farm at https://www.dawnfarm.org/donate-now/

| 10519|10514|2015-01-26 11:31:13|Gary Govier|Re: Query about Bill Wilson/Nell Wing Draft Manuscript about Spiritu|
Nell wing's Nephew Bill-W  might have that answer. I know the nursing home Nell stayed at did not have room for storage. last time I spoke with Shakey mike he was in contact with Bill. I live close to Bill but have not seen him in about 5 years.
 
Bikergaryg@aol.com


-----Original Message-----
From: 'Thomas B.' b.thomas528@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]
To: AAHistoryLovers
Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 3:03 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Query about Bill Wilson/Nell Wing Draft Manuscript about Spirituality . . .

 
Hello,

New member here. Got sober in NYC in October, 1972.

In the 80s and 90s, I was privileged to know Nell Wing, visiting her apartment in Stuyvesant Town several times. She had 35 or so legal size boxes in her apartment, which she said were copies of Bill Wilson's memoranda, correspondence, writing projects, etc. ,Included, she told me, was a draft manuscript that she and Bill had worked on over the years concerning generic spirituality from all the world wisdom traditions. As I recall, she said it described the evolution of Bill's spiritual beliefs from 1935 through the latter years of his life. Much of what has been published indicates that Bill was most eclectic and all-inclusive in his spiritual beliefs, being most gratified, for example, when Buddhists could readily adopt the suggested 12-steps simply by substituting "good" for God. Nell told me that she herself was a follower of the Greek philosopher Epicurus.

I visited the AA Archives this summer, but could find nothing regarding this manuscript. The current AA Archivist, Michelle Mizra suggested that it might be at Stepping Stones. Y esterday, I had a long conversation with Sally Corbett, Executive Director of Stepping Stone, but she also could find no reference to it.

Does anyone here know anything about this manuscript? 
| 10520|10320|2015-01-26 11:33:20|john wikelius|Re: John Wikelius, Distilled Factoids|
Grapevine book reprinted through December 2015
 

From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:50 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] John Wikelius, Distilled Factoids

 
In 2007, John Wikelius (Enterprise, Alabama) published three books:

Distilled Factoids - about AA books with cover art, printing, date.

Alcoholism - Alanon literature, listing of movies with alcohol theme, magazine articles about alcoholism.

Grapevine cover art from first cover through 2007.

=====================================
For more information, please SEND YOUR E-MAIL DIRECTLY TO:

John Wikelius = (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

(If you just hit the "Respond" button, your e-mail will go to the AAHistoryLovers pending message board instead of going to John.)
=====================================

Volume 4 is not yet in print, John says, because it is very expensive to print - catalog of magazines about temperance, prohibition, alcoholism, AA, etc.  (spin off from the volume 2). He is up to 577 pages with 6 cover art, title, date listed.  Long time - research.

Volume 5 deals with AA pamphlets showing the cover art changes over the years (also incomplete).

John is a long time active member of the AAHistoryLovers. A couple of years ago he had a display in the local library on Prohibition - theme "In the still of the night."





| 10521|10504|2015-01-26 12:21:10|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Very sad news: Ernie Kurtz died last night|
From: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net)

Thank you, Bill and Glenn, for letting us know about Ernie’s death. Pancreatic ca is such a terrible affliction. I trust his hospice care was able to control the awful pain. My heart goes out to Linda.

His contributions to the history of AA are a true touchstone for those of us who came after AA's founding. Dave and I feel so privileged to have had Ernie's guidance and support when we were researching and writing the Marty Mann bio 15 years ago.

Please let us know about further developments.

Shalom - Sally and David Brown

http://hindsfoot.org/swegmarty.html

| 10522|10504|2015-01-26 12:33:45|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Very sad news: Ernie Kurtz died last night|
From cindyfromphilly, thombone, notusuallyright

****************************************
From: cindyfromphilly (cm53 at earthlink.net)

<>

That was the first place I met him, too .... he signed a copy of his book for me .... I'd had it for a few years, and it was pretty beat-up, he joked that it  looked "well-read" ..... it was.

R.I.P.,  Rest in Power

 - Cindy
****************************************
From: thombone200x (thombone at gmail.com)

Re: Ernie: Requiescat in pace

The Archivist community will be forever changed. R.I.P. Ernie!
****************************************
From: notusuallyright (notusuallyright at yahoo.com)

I was very sad to read your post about Ernie Kurtz..I was also surprised he didn't have his own Wikipedia article.
****************************************

| 10523|10504|2015-01-26 18:37:40|trysh travis|Re: Very sad news: Ernie Kurtz died last night|
We have a short In Memoriam post up at Points blog, and Bill White will be writing something more substantive on Ernie's life and work next month. Trysh Travis

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 3:17 PM, AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

From: rev.sally@att.net <rev.sally@att.net> (rev.sally at att.net)

Thank you, Bill and Glenn, for letting us know about Ernie’s death. Pancreatic ca is such a terrible affliction. I trust his hospice care was able to control the awful pain. My heart goes out to Linda.

His contributions to the history of AA are a true touchstone for those of us who came after AA's founding. Dave and I feel so privileged to have had Ernie's guidance and support when we were researching and writing the Marty Mann bio 15 years ago.

Please let us know about further developments.

Shalom - Sally and David Brown



| 10524|10524|2015-02-01 12:21:38|AAHistoryLovers|Noon Tues. Feb. 3 deadline - Stepping Stones support letter|



Noon Tues. Feb. 3 deadline - Stepping Stones support letter

Please Take a Minute By Feb. 3 to Email in
Support of Stepping Stones - Sally Corbett


The deadline was extended to submit a cordial, short email of support (sample below) by noon on Feb. 3, 2015 for Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson.

Please encourage the Board of the Town of Bedford, NY to approve this important historic site’s Special Use Permit.

The goal is for the site to remain accessible as it was during the Wilsons' time and as they intended it to be for generations to come. Please send a polite, personal (anonymity breaks not suggested) email of support to supervisor@bedfordny.gov and copy Stepping Stones info@steppingstones.org

SAMPLE EMAIL BELOW – Copy into new email, edit introduction to personalize, put your name or first name and last initial and location at the end, and submit.


****************************************
Email Subject: Support for Stepping Stones Permit

Town Board
c/o Town Supervisor Chris Burdick
Town of Bedford
321 Bedford Rd.
Bedford Hills, NY 10507
Via email to: supervisor@bedfordny.gov
CC: info@steppingstones.org

Dear Supervisor:

I am writing in support of Stepping Stones’ Special Use Permit application and encourage the Town to approve it without additional encumbrances or delay so the National Historic Landmark can move forward with normal operations. People who come to Stepping Stones learn about a remarkable aspect of American and world history. The Wilsons’ story is an incredible one of generosity, perseverance and hope. Visitors walk away inspired by a deeper understanding about recovery from alcoholism.

Since 1941 Stepping Stones has become a special place for millions of people worldwide. In 2012 it was designated a National Historic Landmark by the federal government. Since Lois Wilson's death 26 years ago, the Stepping Stones Foundation has continued to welcome visitors carrying on the Wilsons’ tradition. It was Bill and Lois Wilson’s wish that the property remain available for visitors as it was in their day. The Foundation takes great care to be good neighbors. Stepping Stone willingly modified its operations based on a considerable list of conditions proposed by citizen appointed to your Town of Bedford Planning and Zoning boards.

I hope the unique, inspiring experience of visiting the Wilson's home will continue to be available for generations to come. I respectfully request that you help ensure Stepping Stones’ future by issuing the Special Use Permit. Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

****************************************


From Sally to everybody in the AA History Lovers internet group:

I am spending my full time right now working on this matter, which is a local issue, but is vitally important to maintaining access to Stepping Stones for AA members from all over the world. Writing an e-mail to the Bedford Hills Town Board -- or if you've already written one, writing another one -- would be a big help to us here at this crucial point.

Sincerely,

Sally A. Corbett

Executive Director
Stepping Stones - Historic Home of Lois & Bill Wilson,
co-founders of Al-Anon & AA respectively
62 Oak Road
Katonah, NY 10536
info@steppingstones.org
Office Tel. 914.232.4822
Mobile Tel. for time-sensitive matters 678-428-9279
Website http://www.steppingstones.org/
Join us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BillWHome




| 10525|10525|2015-02-01 17:38:17|AAHistoryLovers|Step Up for Stepping Stones - Tues. Feb. 3|
Update & Opportunity to Support Stepping Stones

From the Stepping Stones Foundation
(info at steppingstones.org)

Dear Friends:

Thank you to everyone who has voiced their personal support for Stepping Stones by sending letters and emails to the Town of Bedford. On Tues. Feb. 3, 2015 at 8:45 p.m. the Town Board of Town of Bedford will hold what is likely to be its final public hearing and possibly a vote regarding Stepping Stones' application for a special use permit required of philanthropic organizations located in certain areas.

For background regarding our application, please click here to see a letter from Thursday from the Stepping Stones Board of Trustees to the Town of Bedford:

https://files.ctctcdn.com/a7aa3add001/b483147e-7328-4b9d-a7eb-e262ad58273f.pdf

There are still two ways to show support by Tues. Feb. 3 (see below). Many thanks for your enthusiasm for Stepping Stones.

Very truly yours,

The Stepping Stones Foundation

info@steppingstones.org

TWO WAYS TO SHOW SUPPORT

1) If you live in the region and would like to attend Tuesday night's 8:45 p.m. hearing in Bedford, NY, please email info@steppingstones.org for directions to the Town court room.

2) If you haven't, please consider sending a brief, cordial email of support to the Town.

Click here for sample email to copy into new email, personalize, fill in blanks and send:

https://files.ctctcdn.com/a7aa3add001/ca55e9ee-0a2a-498c-bd72-ae96aa0007bd.pdf


| 10526|10526|2015-02-01 17:53:36|AAHistoryLovers|Letter to the Town of Bedford Town Board|
Letter to the Town of Bedford Town Board
from the Board of Trustees of the Stepping Stones Foundation


https://files.ctctcdn.com/a7aa3add001/b483147e-7328-4b9d-a7eb-e262ad58273f.pdf

January 29, 2015

Hon. Christopher Burdick and
Members of the Town Board
Town Hall
321 Bedford Road
Bedford Hills, NY 10507

Dear Supervisor Burdick and Members of the Board:

We, the Trustees of The Stepping Stones Foundation, submit the following in support of The Stepping Stones Foundation’s application to the Town of Bedford for a “Special Use Permit.”

As members of the Stepping Stones Board of Trustees we serve the Foundation in a volunteer capacity. No trustee receives monetary compensation from the Foundation. Our stated commitment, as individuals and as a Board of Trustees, is to uphold the mission of the Foundation as articulated by Lois Wilson in 1979 when the Foundation was established (headed by Lois Wilson). That mission is to preserve the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson, co-founders respectively of Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon Family Groups, and to commemorate their achievements in the field of recovery from alcoholism. The Wilsons moved to the property in 1941 and Lois co-founded Al-Anon Family Groups Clearinghouse at Stepping Stones in 1951. As President, Lois led the Stepping Stones Foundation’s activities—seminar, visits, archiving, etc.—on the property since the Foundation’s establishment in 1979. The Foundation has continued since Lois’ death in 1988 to maintain the Wilson home, its contents and archives, as well as offering guided tours and educational programming.

As the Town Board is aware from the volume of letters received over the last four years from Stepping Stones supporters near and far, the significance and importance of this National Historic Landmark extends around the world. Millions of people have been affected by the life work of Bill and Lois Wilson, work that is explained and honored at the Stepping Stones site. Because the special use permit application process has extended for a number of years—pre-dating some Town Board members’ tenure—we present in this letter a history of the Foundation’s experience with this process. Importantly, we seek to correct aspects of the history of the Stepping Stones’ property and of the procedural stance of our Special Use Permit application that have been distorted by opponents of our operation. Stepping Stones has followed the process outlined by the Town Board and at each step of the way has provided studies with historical references, data and factual evidence to support the record.

This letter serves to review the Foundation’s role in the process and to correct and clarify, for the record, distortions or incorrect assertions that have arisen.

Historic Use of Stepping Stones

Opponents of the Special Use Permit inaccurately claim that prior to Lois Wilson’s death in 1988, the property was used only as a single family home. The facts, supported by significant written and photographic documentation, demonstrate that Stepping Stones was a focus for Bill and Lois Wilsons’ work throughout their lives, and that since 1941, the property has been continually used as a gathering place for people interested in and connected to that work.

In 1941 Bill and Lois Wilson moved to the Bedford property that they named Stepping Stones. They accessed their property from Cherry Street, via a deeded right of way (neither Oak nor Woodfield roads existed). From the beginning, Stepping Stones was more than just the home of this illustrious couple. It was a hub of activity as Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) emerged from its infancy to become the worldwide fellowship that it is today. From 1941 until Bill and Lois’ respective deaths in 1971 and 1988, the couple’s open house policy brought thousands of visitors to Stepping Stones along with many conferences, meetings and picnics. Stepping Stones has records and archives documenting the continuous use of the property in this manner from 1941 through to today. These records are reconfirmed by anecdotes and recollections of historians, biographers, other neighbors, and family members of the Wilsons who have testified, as well as written letters and affidavits in support of our application.

History of the Stepping Stones Foundation

Opponents of the Special Use Permit assert that the Foundation changed the use of the property after Lois’ death in 1988. The historic record clearly shows evidence to the contrary.

In 1972, over 40 years ago, and some years before the Stepping Stones Foundation was in fact established by Lois Wilson in 1979, Lois wrote a document entitled “Disposal of Stepping Stones.” In it she stated her intention of donating her property for the benefit of the members of A.A. and for the members of the A.A. General Service Conference to use… [and] where members [of A.A. and Al-Anon], could come, individually or in groups, for study or meditation,…or, Lois continued, to entrust the property to a ‘Trust’ or Foundation for that same purpose. The latter was the path Lois eventually chose.

Lois Wilson in 1979, 36 years ago, and some nine years before her death in 1988, established the Stepping Stones Foundation. From 1979 to1988, Lois herself ran the Foundation. It was Lois Wilson, not the current Board, who determined the Foundation’s objectives and purposes. The Foundation itself long preceded the arrival in the neighborhood of the neighbors now opposed to the special use permit. While it was not until after Lois’s death in 1988 that the Foundation actually took possession of title to the property, the Foundation itself was already active on site under Lois’ leadership through the 1980s.

For example, an alcoholism treatment conference was convened by Lois in 1984, an event which Lois called one of the high points of her life. A second conference, convened after her death, was held in 1993, attended by, amongst others, Senator Harold Hughes, who was instrumental in advancing the Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment and Rehabilitation Act, commonly referred to as the Hughes Act. The “Stepping Stones Accords” on recovery, resulted from the conference held by the Foundation.

The Stepping Stones Foundation has been active on the grounds at Stepping Stones for a long, long time.

Origins of Stepping Stones’ Mission

Opponents to the Special Use Permit claim that the Foundation has changed Stepping Stones into something that it was never intended to be. The record is clear that the Wilsons took great pains to ensure Stepping Stones’ continuation and future.

The late Mike Alexander served as attorney to both Bill and Lois Wilson. He drew up the testamentary documents that governed their estates. In addition to those documents, Mike repeatedly stated that Lois’ intent was to maintain Stepping Stones as it then existed. That effort has governed the Foundation’s mission since its inception. There was assuredly no talk of diminishing the actual level of activity on the site. In fact, in personal correspondence housed in the Stepping Stones archives, Lois wrote that she hoped the site would be even more actively used in the years ahead.

The Stepping Stones Board is solely dedicated to be of service by advancing the purposes Lois Wilson articulated in creating The Stepping Stones Foundation. The current Board of Trustees has not revised or changed the Foundation’s mission or activities from Lois Wilson’s wishes.

Stepping Stones’ Board members receive no payment for their services and each follows a strict Conflict of Interest policy that precludes any Board member from even indirectly profiting from Board service. Attacks directed against Stepping Stones’ Trustees are therefore misdirected. Not one Trustee serves for personal gain. We speak solely on behalf of the intended beneficiaries of Lois’ estate, and only on their behalf. We have a legal and a moral obligation to do so.

Voluntary Compliance with Proposed Conditions (or Protocols)

During the course of Stepping Stones’ application process, the Planning and Zoning Boards developed conditions on Foundation operation that they viewed as sufficient to satisfy Town regulations as well as those they heard from those opposed to the application. The Foundation freely agreed to begin implementation of these conditions, even though we are aware that some of the visitation limits imposed represent usage below what is reflected in the historic record (e.g., reports show that annual picnics have exceeded 600). We do not view the limits in the conditions as objectives to be obtained, but merely as reflections of usage in recent years with a small, reasonable cushion.

The Planning and Zoning Boards developed the operating conditions based on recent (last few years) records of tour visit activity at the site, as well as studies of actual current usage such as the level of automobile trips in and out of the property that are fewer than the average single family household. This appropriately evidence-based approach is documented and should not be arbitrarily circumscribed. The conditions adopted by the Planning Board and the Zoning Board of Appeals are an attempt to address minor issues of a few neighbors without diminishing the overall visitation opportunities that the intended beneficiaries of Lois’ legacy would have to visit this National Historic Landmark. While under no obligation to adopt the conditions at the time they were developed by the Planning and Zoning Boards, Stepping Stones voluntarily agreed to alter some operating protocols that had been in place for decades as part of our continuing efforts to be good neighbors. From the Spring of 2013 through the present Stepping Stones has acted in good faith following the Planning and Zoning Board conditions.

After Assiduously Following Town Processes, Late-Stage Changes Arise

We are dismayed that the Town Board has apparently determined to set aside the spirit of the recommendations of both the Planning Board and the Zoning Board of Appeals (ZBA) by refusing to base key operating conditions of a Special Use Permit for Stepping Stones on those developed and approved by the Town Board’s own appointed citizen volunteer boards for zoning and planning. These conditions were developed and approved based on factual evidence and site visits, not on anecdotes, emotion and hyperbole.

The Town Board’s additional decision to disregard its own prior actions concerns us. When acting as Lead Agency on SEQRA, the Town Board issued a “negative declaration” of environmental impact, citing the very same conditions it now chooses to substantially alter.

This most recent Town Board action makes it clear that recently proposed changes to the operating conditions have not been based on the facts in evidence in this application. It appears that the Town Board has based its latest changes on the unsubstantiated claims of a small group who do not wish to coexist with a National Historic Landmark that celebrates the undeniably great accomplishments of a Bedford couple who changed the face of alcoholism and drug addiction treatment and recovery worldwide.

When Stepping Stones first applied for this special use permit, then-Supervisor Lee Roberts, Town Attorney Joel Sachs and Director of Planning Jeffrey Osterman laid out for Stepping Stones’ representatives the procedure to follow. In those meetings and in subsequent open meetings of the Town Board it was determined that before the Town Board would take up the application, Stepping Stones must follow an unusually long and circuitous path directed by the Board – a path that no other philanthropic organization in Bedford has been required to follow. It was also at that time that the Town Board, on the advice of Town Attorney Sachs, designated itself Lead Agency in the SEQRA action.

In the interest of cooperation, The Stepping Stones Board reluctantly agreed to this time-consuming and expensive legal route. This process eventually caused us to appear numerous times before the Planning Board and the ZBA over a period of about four years. The reasoning, we were told, was that with this extended process all interested parties would be heard and the Boards would have the opportunity to do their jobs. We were told that if we were successful in gaining the approval of the Planning Board, and after obtaining a zoning variance from the ZBA, the Town Board would act affirmatively on the Planning Board’s recommendation and either issue or deny a permit. The Planning Board recommended issuing a permit with conditions, conditions Stepping Stones has voluntarily put in place even though some experts believe they are not legally in effect. Now, more than two years later, the Town Board is considering a resolution which would ignore the recommendations of the Planning Board, sidestep the conditions of the Zoning Board of Appeals, and violate the Town Board’s own earlier determination of significance under SEQRA despite a great deal of time, energy and expense that has already been expended over the years by its citizen boards, the applicant, and others. In contrast, the few similar applications ever to appear before Bedford Town Boards were handled through a more streamlined process in mere months.

The Planning Board members, Zoning Board of Appeals and Town staff went to great lengths to give the application a fair hearing. The entire Planning Board participated in at least two site visits as well as additional site visits by individual members. No less than eight (8) Planning Board meetings were held. At almost every one of these meetings, residents were given unlimited time to voice their concerns.

As part of this process, Stepping Stones commissioned a traffic study, which was reviewed and accepted by the Town’s independent traffic expert. The conclusion of the traffic study was that Stepping Stones tour guests generate fewer automobile trips than a single family home; certainly much less traffic than the multiple single family homes that could be built on the eight-plus-acre site. The study was updated in November 2014 and continues to show that the site’s visitors still generate less than half the number of trips of an average single family home.

Among the small number of neighbors opposing the permit application (11 households out of approximately 90 total neighborhood households) are residents who have stated that they would rather have 10 or more houses on the site (as allowed under current zoning ordinances) than Stepping Stones. This seems totally inconsistent with the position that the traffic impact of the site is the main problem. Stepping Stones typically has no visitors at all on more than 100 days each year. Traffic would be far greater with a housing development, so traffic issues alone do not seem to be what motivates this small group to stand against this National Historic Landmark’s continued low-key operation.

Nonetheless, the Planning Board continued its review and proposed an operating protocol in late 2011. For the next several months, the Planning Board listened to comments from both Stepping Stones and residents and issued a final set of conditions on September 11, 2012. Through the acceptance of those conditions, Stepping Stones agreed to cap annual attendance, to cap its annual picnic (now entering its 64th year) and to greatly limit the number of group visits at lower than some levels seen in recent years.

In the Planning Board’s report to the Town Board on September 11, 2012, they said in part:

“The Planning Board has engaged in a series of discussions regarding the operation of this use with representatives of Stepping Stones and members of the neighborhood...in the Planning Board’s opinion, these recommended operating guidelines contain elements of all of the above documents and reflect the current use of the Stepping Stones property. These Guidelines provide for continuing operation of the Stepping Stones property and include modifications to mitigate the impacts this use currently has on the surrounding neighborhood.

The Planning Board recommends approval of the proposed Special Use Permit in accordance with these guidelines. With the implementation of these guidelines, the proposed operation will not have a negative effect on the property as defined by the New York State Environmental Quality Review Act (SEQRA) and that the Town Board should issue a negative Declaration under SEQRA for this proposal.”

In fact, the Town Board agreed with the Planning Board’s recommendation and on January 22, 2013 issued a legal finding under State Law, which said in part:

“The Town Board of the Town of Bedford as lead agency has determined that the proposed action described below will not have a significant impact.”

With that part of the process resolved, and at the Town Board’s direction, Stepping Stones applied for a variance, filed in 2011, to the Zoning Board of Appeals for relief from the requirement that a philanthropic or eleemosynary use property have frontage on a County or State road. As noted earlier, in 1941, when the Wilsons moved into Stepping Stones, they accessed their property from Cherry Street, via a deeded right of way. Historic records and papers document the Wilsons’ original address as “Cherry St., Bedford Hills.” In 1947, the Town asked Lois Wilson to relinquish her rights to her access road, to allow the Town to create Woodfield Road and subsequently Oak Road so that a developer could build a tract of raised ranch houses on the property. Lois agreed. Ironically, these are the very houses whose residents now question Stepping Stones’ right to operate the way it has for over seventy years.

Hearing All Voices and Opponents’ Failed Legal Challenge

Opponents of the Special Use Permit assert that they have not had sufficient opportunity to voice their concerns. The record is clear that the Town-prescribed special process, a process that has now extended almost half a decade, provided unprecedented opportunity for public comment.

The ZBA, Bedford’s appointed volunteer citizen board, took extraordinary measures to allow all of the parties to be heard. After a three-year process before the ZBA, with appearances of the neighbors (at the time represented by counsel) and Stepping Stones, the ZBA approved the application and issued the variance. The ZBA considered and based the approval, in part, upon the Planning Board’s findings and recommendations and on the Town Board SEQRA finding of “no significant impacts” in their determination.

After this unprecedented, exhaustive process, Stepping Stones, with the Planning Board’s approval, the ZBA variance, and the “negative declaration’ under SEQRA in hand, asked the Town Board to take up the application. As the Board prepared to consider the Special Use Permit, select neighbors decided to challenge

the Town ZBA, the Town Board and the Town Building Inspector, and the Stepping Stones Foundation in State Supreme Court with an Article 78 proceeding that sought to overturn the ZBA variance.

This small group’s suit was flawed on almost all legal and factual levels. Again, Stepping Stones was unreasonably subjected to outrageously false statements by the petitioners. Nevertheless, Stepping Stones— at its own expense— defended the Town, the Zoning Board of Appeals and the Town Building Inspector as the Town joined Stepping Stones’ Motion to Dismiss. The judge rejected the opposing party’s demand for a show cause order. Ultimately, Stepping Stones Notice of Motion to Dismiss, and the undeniable facts in the case, caused the petitioners to withdraw their suit with prejudice, barring them from bringing this action before the Court again.

Request that Permit Be Granted

Now, after more than four years of exhaustive work by Stepping Stones, the Planning Board and the Zoning Board of Appeals, as well as having to deal with a baseless lawsuit filed and discontinued by certain neighbors, Stepping Stones finds itself in a position where the Town Board, has—without any new evidence or any change in circumstances—decided to entertain new and further conditions many of which are improper. The conditions and protocols developed, using documentary and historic information and approved by the Planning and Zoning Boards, more than ameliorate the slight concerns of a few while respecting the historic mission and international significance of this National Historic Landmark. No further conditions are appropriate.

The Stepping Stones Foundation is the lawful owner of this wonderful historic resource, and, as such, also has property rights to preserve and defend. The time and money the Foundation has been forced to expend in this extended approval process has, in each instance, been necessarily drained from funds that would otherwise be available for historic preservation. Nonetheless, the Stepping Stones’ Board is fully prepared to pursue any necessary remedy, to ensure that the Foundation’s legal property rights are secured for the benefit of this generation and those to come.

We ask that the Special Use Permit be granted with those prior limits in mind and in accordance with the protocols already adopted, which, as the Planning Board stated in its recommendation of September 11, 2012, “reflect the current use of Stepping Stones property.”

Respectfully Submitted,

John C. Koster, Pres.
Don Harrell, VP
Jane Tolar, Sect.
Ashton S. McFadden, Treas.
Matthew J. Gruber
James F. Moogan
Joan A. Ramsey
John H. Schultz
Walter Stuart

Submitted on Jan. 29, 2015 by Sally Corbett, Executive Director, The Stepping Stones Foundation, as authorized by and on behalf of the Board of Trustees of the Stepping Stones Foundation

| 10527|10527|2015-02-02 15:06:12|AAHistoryLovers|Stepping Stones: a plea to pass on copies of Sally Corbett's request|
Al Welch in Baltimore is sending a copy of Sally Corbett's request for e-mails of support for Stepping Stones to everybody on his mailing list. Sally Corbett's letter is at:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/10524

Al Welch is also sending around copies of the letter from the Stepping Stones Foundation, the letter which asks as many people as possible to either send e-mails or (even better) SHOW UP IN PERSON on Tuesday night at 8:45 p.m. for the hearing in the Bedford NY town court room:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/10524

COULD WE ASK OTHER PEOPLE WITH WEBSITES AND EXTENSIVE MAILING LISTS TO DO THE SAME?


Al's website in Baltimore is the one with:
The Biographies of the Authors of the Stories in the Big Book at
http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm
Also see the treasure troves of information about AA history which Al has gathered at:
http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/
http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/HistoryPage.htm
http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Info.htm


| 10528|10516|2015-02-02 17:04:19|AAHistoryLovers|Re: The Power of Fellowship (2) Jim Burwell and Annette Smith|
From: Barry M = bear8512100
(murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)

Community is large part of getting and staying sober: Ernie Kurtz identified these as general qualities of genuine 12 Step programs that work:

*Language-vocabulary of Twelve Steps
*Humor
*Story style sharing of experience strength & hope
*Twelve Traditions
*Community

Kurtz, E. (1996). Spirituality and recovery: The historical journey. In The Collected Ernie Kurtz (1999). Wheeling, West Virginia: The Bishop of Books, pp. 109-144.

Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile


| 10529|10281|2015-02-02 17:08:38|J.BARRY Murtaugh|Re: 1935 nickel with a buffalo on one side and Indian head on the ot|
The attendees at the Usual Suspects Retreat in April at Camp Garner TN get a 1935 nickel on last day.
To help remember the call Bill Made to Tunks from the Mayflower Hotel lobby phone next to the bar.

I carry it with me right next to this years Anniversary Coin-with Bill and Bob/XXXV/Unity Service Love and
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." on the other side.

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Russ Hillard russhillard@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

All -

A friend traveling in India attended an AA meeting in Katmandu.  This is her AA birthday month and after celebrating AA birthdays in the usual way a member also gave her a 1935 nickel with a buffalo on one side and Indian head on the other side.  It had been given to him years earlier by his sponsor to commemorate his one year birthday.  She was told that such a coin is mentioned somewhere in AA literature - possibly the big book.

Anyone know anything about that?

Russ
 




--
Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh

Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100
| 10530|10513|2015-02-02 17:09:32|chief_roger|Re: AA in the Military|

Glenn - thank you. It is incredibly flattering to be praised by great historians.One of the biggest challenges in preparing for this particular talk was distilling the information down to fit the time and be interesting to the audience. Based on feedback, that worked out well.

It is my pleasure and passion to continue reading and researching AA in the military as well as alcoholism treatment as it has evolved in the military institutions. If there is anyone who has any verifiable information, personal experience in military substance abuse treatment, AA membership, or related topics (or know someone willing to share), I would be most interested in hearing from you.

Roger W.

| 10531|10531|2015-02-03 18:50:36|AAHistoryLovers|Recovery Spirituality by Ernest Kurtz and William L. White|
From: Bill White (bwhite at chestnut.org)

This is the last paper Ernie and I authored.  The final edits were submitted four days before he died.  It was published online today.

"Recovery Spirituality" by Ernest Kurtz and William L. White
(published 27 January 2015)

http://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/6/1/58

Abstract: There is growing interest in Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) and other secular, spiritual, and religious frameworks of long-term addiction recovery. The present paper explores the varieties of spiritual experience within A.A., with particular reference to the growth of a wing of recovery spirituality promoted within A.A. It is suggested that the essence of secular spirituality is reflected in the experience of beyond (horizontal and vertical transcendence) and between (connection and mutuality) and in six facets of spirituality (Release, Gratitude, Humility, Tolerance, Forgiveness, and a Sense of Being-at-home) shared across religious, spiritual, and secular pathways of addiction recovery. The growing varieties of A.A. spirituality (spanning the “Christianizers” and “Seculizers”) reflect A.A.’s adaptation to the larger diversification of religious experience and the growing secularization of spirituality across the cultural contexts within which A.A. is nested.

Published in the online journal "Religions"
(Editorial Office: Klybeckstrasse 64, 4057 Basel, Switzerland)
http://www.mdpi.com/journal/religions


| 10532|10281|2015-02-03 18:57:10|hdmozart|Re: 1935 nickel with a buffalo on one side and Indian head on the ot|
I couldn't find any reference to a 'special' nickel of any kind in our 'standard' literature - THese are all the references I could find -

------------------------
How It Worked, THe Story of Clarence H Snyder

pp20: They had the nerve to charge thirty cents when everybody else was charging a nickel.

pp30: Over the preceding few days, Clarence had managed to save a small amount of change in nickels and dimes.

pp34: Clarence discovered the automat. He related, "The automat was a place with lots of little square windows, walls of ‘em with different foods behind each window. You put in your nickel or dime through this little slot and turned the knob. The window popped open, and you took out your food. One window for soup, one for sandwiches, one for beans etc."

pp45: Clarence was "on the bum" for about a month and a half in East Cleveland. Ever wary of the Mad Butcher, and of what were known as the Nickel Plate Railroad Police. These police were, in reality, just a group of "paid goons," as Clarence called them.

pp210: And Tunks, in turn, gave Bill Henrietta’s number. Through that phone call, which was supposedly made with Bill’s last nickel, a meeting was set up at Henrietta’s home, the Gate house of Stan Hywet Hall, her husband’s family estate.

------------------------
Personal Stories: Our Southern Friend

"Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be seen. 

------------------------
Living Sober

At the end of "29 Going to A.A. meetings"
That nickel for "expenses" 
That makes you feel you matter, 
That dollar for the coffee shop 
For after-meeting chatter. 


------------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous COmes of Age

pp62: Walking up Clinton Street to the subway, I fished six cents out of my pocket. A nickel would get me to the hospital. But hadn't I forgotten something? Here I was on my way to be cured. Typical alcoholic that I was, I figured I might as well be comfortable until the hospital took over. So I stepped into a grocery store where I had a slim credit. I remember explaining to the clerk that I was an alcoholic on my way to be cured. Could I have four bottles of beer on the cuff?


------------------------
Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers

pp146: They’d say, ‘Put a nickel in that telephone and call before you take a drink. If they don’t answer, call somebody else.’ ”

pp151: “Then there was that little nickel book The Upper Room,” she recalled.

pp172: In an era of hard times and nickel magazines, an article by Jack
Alexander spread the A.A. message nationwide.


------------------------
Pass It On

pp93: . With subway fare of two nickels from my wife but no lunch coins, I ambled daily up and down Wall Street, looking for anything.

pp96: As a result of spending all the paper currency, he had accumulated a pocketful of nickels, dimes, and quarters. This was serious, being early in the afternoon, so we took a cab to Brooklyn and stopped at Loeser's department store. There, Bill's ever-devoted wife, Lois, was holding down a job, the same as my weary 

pp96: "It was a little awkward paying off the cabby in nickels, dimes, and quarters, and after dropping several on the sidewalk, Bill dumped a shower of coins into the taxi and orated something about it being more blessed to receive than to give.

pp247: Out in Toledo, Ohio, a new member named Garth M. was given a twodollar roll of nickels by the group and sent on a tour of magazine outlets until he had bought 40 copies.

------------------------
A Pre A.A. History Book, Bob S.

Bill Meets Henrietta
Reverend Tunks provided Bill with numbers of ten Oxford Group members to which Bill risked his then-precious nickels to no avail, save one contact, Norman Sheppard, who knew about Hen-rietta Seiberling‘s efforts to help a doctor get off the hooch.

Hope this helps,
Larry 
| 10533|10533|2015-02-03 19:04:22|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Ernie Kurtz died|
From Mike B. (Irving, Texas), Bernadette (Toronto, Canada), and john_gamblers_releif

****************************************
From: Mike B. (Irving, Texas)
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

I first met Ernie when he gave a talk in Dallas sometime in early 1993 and I was able to visit with him for a while afterwards. During that conversation, he mentioned that he was researching for a possible book about the history of AA central offices and asked about Dallas and the north Texas area. I suggested that he might talk with an old friend, Search Whaley, and soon the two of them were connected. Ernie was very kind in exchanging letters with me during the next few months and I have kept those letters and treasure them. Once, during our conversations, I mentioned to Ernie that I had a book called “Ninety Meetings on Ninety Days” written by an Ernie K., and wondered if that might be him. His reply was “ I prefer to remain ambiguous.” How classic Ernie Kurtz!

Mike Barns Irving, TX 3-21-84
****************************************
From: bernadette.john@sympatico.ca (bernadette.john at sympatico.ca)

As a very devoted member of AAHistoryLovers from Canada, I can say that although I did not know Ernie, I felt he was my friend. And a friend to all of us who stay connected here on this site through our love of AA history. May he rest in peace.

bernadette
king city group, Toronto, Canada
****************************************
From: john_gamblers_releif
(john6528 at comcast.net)

Incredible loss. So sad.

Gess
****************************************

| 10534|10534|2015-02-07 11:43:03|AAHistoryLovers|Physical restraints on Bill W. at Towns?|
From: Gary N. (Lilburn, Georgia) =
(morningmael at yahoo.com)

 Charles Towns was very proud of his claim that using physical restraints showed "medical ignorance and cowardice when it is done." (Modern Hospital, January, 1917).

Is it just me, or do I seem to remember, that Bill W. was shown in films to be physically restrained? As he was treated only at Towns Hospital for his alcoholism, the scenes had to be portrayed there, if my memory is accurate.

Of course, much could have changed at Towns Hospital in the 17 years since Towns wrote what he did, including Silkworth becoming medical director at Towns Hospital.

But does anybody have any written evidence that physical restraints were or were not used there?

| 10535|10535|2015-02-07 13:35:19|AAHistoryLovers|Dr. Earle Marsh interview on video|
From: Dave S. = PMDS@aol.com (PMDS at aol.com)

I did a video interview with Earle in June 2002.  Editing was done and we had a final product by December.  He died January 13, 2003.  We just got the interview up on YouTube.  If you go there and type in Dr. Earle Marsh you'll find it.

DR. EARLE MARSH

Interviews - Discoveries - Part I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ionUOFgthM

Discoveries - Part II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPIJdHIiGbQ

Discoveries - Part III
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JuXn3ZjcB8

Published on Jan 12, 2015

Dr. Earle Marsh is the author of the "Physician Heal Thyself" story in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous as well as a book by the same title. He got sober June 15, 1953 and died on January 13, 2003. A sponsee of Earle's, Dave S., with the help of several others, took time during the last year of Earle's live to sit down and interview Earle in order to document some of the more wonderful/memorable of Earle's stories about AA, about life, about recovery and, I believe unintentionally, about himself. I met Earle when I was a few months sober and was immediately struck by the fact that this old man had gotten sober two days before I was born -- he had not had a drink for my entire (then 48 years of) life. While I only knew him for 14 months before he died, I can honestly say that were it not for Earle, I would probably not have been able to stay in what I initially thought was the "cult" of AA. Turns out AA isn't a cult (because I'm here!) and it was due to the influence of this man, that I came to know some of the essential freedom that can be found within this weird organization called AA.

I'm publishing this video here on YouTube twelve years to the day after his death. I miss him greatly. But then again, I have a sense he's as close to me now as he was then. Maybe more.

Mike L.


| 10536|10536|2015-02-07 13:53:33|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Dr. Earle March interview on video|
Interesting comments on what Earle Marsh learned from the great Hindu religious teacher Krishnamurti:

He learned to live in the now, learned to live in this given second (7:5 minute mark).

This latter Vedanta Hindu idea was also greatly stressed by Richmond Walker, the author of Twenty-Four Hours a Day. It helped Rich to overcome the totally antireligious influence of his father, the prominent American atheist Joseph Walker (of the Humanist Manifesto). I learn to enter the higher divine presence when I (first) quit thinking about myself, and (second) ALSO quit trying to picture what a personified "God" would look like, and quit trying to form complicated intellectual theories about the highest divine reality.

He discovered the ego-less state (around the 19 minute mark).

These comments by Dr. March are in the third section of the YouTube interview:
Discoveries - Part III
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JuXn3ZjcB8


| 10537|10537|2015-02-10 16:38:05|mfmargetis|Calvary Rescue Mission|

Hi all,


Have been searching for any photo(s) of the Calvary Rescue Mission with no results. Can anyone here help?


Thanks!


Mike Margetis

Brunswick, Maryland

mfmargetis@yahoo.com

| 10538|10538|2015-02-10 17:00:22|AAHistoryLovers|In memory of Ernie Kurtz|
From Jay Stinnett (Sedona, Arizona), Dale M., arsphd, Les Cole, Scott C. (El Paso, Texas), and Dave in Utah

****************************************
From Jay Stinnett (Sedona, Arizona) =
jay@sedonamagoretreat.org (jay at sedonamagoretreat.org)

Ernest Kurtz has Graduated: Our good friend and mentor, Ernest Kurtz, has passed beyond our sight and hearing last Sunday. Ernie had the interest and the vision to study the movement Alcoholics Anonymous long before treatment and recovery were part of the social lexicon of the 20th century. His book, “Not God,” is on the shelf of every serious student of how this uniquely American phenomena impacted the world.

Ernie had a generosity of spirit and inquisitiveness that bordered on delight whenever he was approached with a new piece of information. He treated AA historical research as a breathing organism to be nurtured, rather than a mythology to be engraved. He always reminded us that two independent sources were required for information be treated as factual.

To see Ernie at his best, our friends Dan, Kevin and Bill captured his legacy statement last year on video: http://www.page124.com

Bill Wilson had a lovely way of describing the passing of loved ones. This is a small excerpt from a letter of June, 1956, to  Mrs. Francis D.

“So death is a test, and a funeral service is or ought to be a graduation exercise. Both for the one risen, and the one left behind. Easier said then done, but Francis that’s our assignment isn’t it .... So in actuality there is no real parting; for the moment, one who has taken the high road or for the other that remains on the low road. But all roads presently join the one to God and there we shall see all those who have gone on before .... Devotedly Yours, Bill”

If you were encouraged by Ernie's books, follow his direction.  This next week, discover the history of your home group and write it down for future generations.  It is the best possible send-off we can give our friend.

In Love & Service,
Jay Stinnett

(928) 202-2672 cell
jay@sedonamagoretreat.org
Global Retreat Coordinator
Sedona Mago Taoist Retreat Center in Arizona
"Where the sacred meets the scared,
where the dreamers dreams are dared"
 -- Peter Gabriel
http://player.vimeo.com/video/31458360?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0
****************************************
From: Dale M. = kyyank@aol.com (kyyank at aol.com)

Rest in Peace Ernie, the gentleman historian.  Always more supportive and helpful in my work than any. -- Dale Mitchel
****************************************
From: (arsphd at yahoo.com)

Condolences to us all on Ernie's passing. He will be sorely missed by so many. But he lives on in all his brilliant works !
****************************************
From: Les Cole = (elsietwo at msn.com)

His influence upon AA will live forever.
****************************************
From: Scott C. (El Paso, Texas)
(jscinca at aol.com)

New to the AA History Lovers Group, and as a reader of his books, I am sorry for your loss. A lovely thing, the humility shown us all in his "bio" on the Experiencing Spirituality book jacket...

> He holds the position of Adjunct Assistant
> Research Scientist ("than which rank there is
> no lower") in the Department of Psychiatry at the
> University Of Michigan School of Medicine.

I don't even know the man but that speaks of genuine life and humor. God's Speed to your friend.
****************************************
From: Dave in Utah = dmcity7
(dave.morrison at utah.edu)

Thanks, Bill, for forwarding the link to your and Ernie’s article. I never met the man in person, but have also thought of him as a close friend through his writings. A great loss. -- Dave in UT
****************************************

| 10539|10539|2015-02-10 17:03:17|AAHistoryLovers|One of Ernie Kurtz's final messages|
From: Laurie A., Maldon, Essex UK
jennylaurie1@hotmail.com (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Hi Glenn,
In fact Ernie wrote to me on December 16 (see below). Humbling that even while dying he was pursuing his latest 'hobby' - collecting material about sponsorship.
Til the day breaks and the shadows flee away,
God bless,
Laurie

****************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014
From: kurtzern@umich.edu
To: jennylaurie1@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: How it seems to me

Laurie,

The problem is, can you imagine the current worldwide crop of alkies agreeing on any changes to the Book? Can you imagine them agreeing on _anything_? It is not only my current immersion with the AAAgnostica people, where I am in deep and real contact with those who disagree most strongly with the book as it now is, that reinforces the reality that any attempt to revise the book would result in a splintering that would leave 19th century Protestantism seeming unified. Have you read the Fellas's take on the "Primary Purpose" and "Back to Basics" groups? What about aacultwatch.uk itself?

There is the old and valid _faute de mieux_ argument: bad as the first 164 pages are, can you imagine how much worse all the revision attempts would seem to vast, vast numbers? I think, as some of that piece you sent reminds, that far better would be efforts to more highlight the stories. In some of the Ath-Ag groups, in fact, they read from _Living Sober_ or one of the fairly many unbeliever stories that have appeared in the AAGV. (They have gathered them but cannot publicize that for copyright reasons -- and with the current crop of delegates, it is unlikely that the AAGV will be able to publish it.)

Another current hobby, which I invite you to join, is collecting all the material on sponsorship that I can find. Never forget: alcoholism is not contagious, but recovery is. What we realistically need is not a new or revised book but able and open and genuinely sober sponsors. Remember the lesson of liberal education: every classic work requires a good teacher. That is how I view the Big Book and AA today.

ernie

(Your further thoughts will be appreciated.)
****************************************

| 10540|10281|2015-02-11 15:07:04|AAHistoryLovers|Re: 1935 nickel with a buffalo on one side and Indian head on the ot|
From: jackstrw0619@yahoo.com (jackstrw0619 at yahoo.com)

Any idea how the organizers of the Usual Suspects Retreat acquire these coins? Do they buy replicas?  If so, how would I go about acquiring such coins?

Just seems like a great addition to our retreat out here in Chicagoland. Thanks!

Tom
| 10541|10537|2015-02-11 16:05:29|ron.fulkerson@comcast.net|Re: Calvary Rescue Mission|
Mike, A great book on the missions of NYC is "Jerry McAuley and his mission" by Arthur Bonner, but no picture of the CRM.


From: "mfmargetis@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2015 5:33:42 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Calvary Rescue Mission

 

Hi all,


Have been searching for any photo(s) of the Calvary Rescue Mission with no results. Can anyone here help?


Thanks!


Mike Margetis

Brunswick, Maryland

mfmargetis@yahoo.com


| 10542|10537|2015-02-11 20:54:54|Shakey1aa@aol.com|Re: Calvary Rescue Mission|
I think I may have found one
Give me a day
Ty
Shakey

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 11, 2015, at 6:27 AM, ron.fulkerson@comcast.net [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Mike, A great book on the missions of NYC is "Jerry McAuley and his mission" by Arthur Bonner, but no picture of the CRM.


From: "mfmargetis@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2015 5:33:42 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Calvary Rescue Mission

 

Hi all,


Have been searching for any photo(s) of the Calvary Rescue Mission with no results. Can anyone here help?


Thanks!


Mike Margetis

Brunswick, Maryland

mfmargetis@yahoo.com


| 10543|10281|2015-02-11 20:55:56|J.BARRY Murtaugh|Re: 1935 nickel with a buffalo on one side and Indian head on the ot|
Tom,
The nickels they had out are authentic US coinage.
EBay has common circulated coins for about a $1.00.
Your local coin dealer could get you a deal too if you purchased a lot of them at one time.
Some buffalo nickels  are very rare and expensive but the street circulated Denver mint units go for under $1.
There is an offered lot of 11 nickels in protective sleeves like they hand out at Usual Suspects for $1.25 ea.on Ebay.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:06 PM, AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

From: jackstrw0619@yahoo.com (jackstrw0619 at yahoo.com)

Any idea how the organizers of the Usual Suspects Retreat acquire these coins? Do they buy replicas?  If so, how would I go about acquiring such coins?

Just seems like a great addition to our retreat out here in Chicagoland. Thanks!

Tom




--
Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh

Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100
| 10544|10544|2015-02-13 17:47:20|Tom Hickcox|Wilson's CAC Service in WW1|
We know that Wilson was commissioned as a lieutenant in the Coast
Artillery Corps (CAC) in WW1 and that he served in Europe with the AEF.


It is apparent that his unit wasn't manning Coast Artillery
installations, e.g., defending the coast of France.


I have it in my mind that artillery above a certain caliber in WW1 was
manned by the CAC, the larger guns, I believe.


I also know that the CAC had anti-aircraft units.


Can someone provide me with references to the type of guns Wilson's unit
had?


BTW, I was an Field Artillery lieutenant in the sixties. We manned 105s.


Tommy H
Danville, Ky
| 10545|10545|2015-02-13 17:47:40|J.BARRY Murtaugh|Another Ernie Kurtz memory this time from Chicago days.|
From my pal Leo M. who is and has been a stalwart with Fr. Mac and the
Haymarket Center in Chicago for many years. He and Ernie were close during
Ernie's time at Loyola University here.


--
Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh


Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 10546|10544|2015-02-14 22:41:16|Rick Benchoff|Re: Wilson's CAC Service in WW1|
Bill Wilson was in the 66th U.S. Coast Artillery Corps. Here's a website dedicated to the CAC of the WWI era that disembarked to Europe as part of the AEF.

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cacunithistories/defeating_the_hun.htm

Rick Benchoff
Hagerstown, Maryland 

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:03 PM, Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

We know that Wilson was commissioned as a lieutenant in the Coast
Artillery Corps (CAC) in WW1 and that he served in Europe with the AEF.

It is apparent that his unit wasn't manning Coast Artillery
installations, e.g., defending the coast of France.

I have it in my mind that artillery above a certain caliber in WW1 was
manned by the CAC, the larger guns, I believe.

I also know that the CAC had anti-aircraft units.

Can someone provide me with references to the type of guns Wilson's unit
had?

BTW, I was an Field Artillery lieutenant in the sixties. We manned 105s.

Tommy H
Danville, Ky

| 10547|10544|2015-02-14 22:47:59|garylock7008|Re: Wilson's CAC Service in WW1|
My understanding that knowing the history of AA in the end will help the suffering alcoholic - as this is our primary purpose - I am not sure how knowing the caliber of the gun Bill Wilson's  unit used will help us - help the suffering alcoholic - just saying - Gary

From Gary's iPhone 5 with rule62 in effect

On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:03 PM, Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

We know that Wilson was commissioned as a lieutenant in the Coast
Artillery Corps (CAC) in WW1 and that he served in Europe with the AEF.

It is apparent that his unit wasn't manning Coast Artillery
installations, e.g., defending the coast of France.

I have it in my mind that artillery above a certain caliber in WW1 was
manned by the CAC, the larger guns, I believe.

I also know that the CAC had anti-aircraft units.

Can someone provide me with references to the type of guns Wilson's unit
had?

BTW, I was an Field Artillery lieutenant in the sixties. We manned 105s.

Tommy H
Danville, Ky

| 10548|10548|2015-02-16 13:58:21|AAHistoryLovers|Updates from the Stepping Stones Foundation|
Updates from the Stepping Stones Foundation

****************************************
From: Sally Corbett at Stepping Stones
(info at steppingstones.org)
Feb. 13, 2015

Our sincere appreciation goes to more than 1,000 friends who reached out to the Town of Bedford Town Board to share their personal support of Stepping Stones' Special Use Permit application. The last public hearing regarding the application was Feb. 3. We are grateful for the enthusiasm shown by those who attended hearings, testified, submitted supportive letters and emails, phoned and visited Town officials, and offered prayers and encouragement.

On Feb. 24 the Town Board will present and vote on a Special Use Permit resolution with operating conditions for Stepping Stones. For information about live streaming of that meeting, please email info@steppingstones.org for details. The Foundation will advise you as soon as possible regarding any outcomes from the Town meeting.

We will email friends in the region in March regarding ticketing for Lois Wilson's Annual Family Groups Picnic. The picnic is scheduled for Sat. June 6, 2015 at noon. Those interested in volunteering for the picnic may email office@steppingstones.org today!

Again, many thanks for your help and support of Stepping Stones.

Sally A. Corbett, Executive Director
Stepping Stones - Historic Home of Lois & Bill Wilson,
co-founders of Al-Anon & AA respectively
62 Oak Road, Katonah, NY 10536
info@steppingstones.org
Office Tel. 914.232.4822
Mobile Tel. for time-sensitive matters 678-428-9279
Website http://www.steppingstones.org/
Join us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/BillWHome
****************************************

FROM THE MODERATOR:
I am told that the directors of Stepping Stones "will have to review the actual wording of the resolution and conditions once they are presented by the Town Board on Feb. 24.  Hopefully it will provide the flexibility that we [in A.A.] would like. We will be able to say more after we see the document on Feb. 24."


| 10549|10549|2015-02-19 16:41:12|robert stonebraker|Thacher summer homes in Manchester, VT|

Ebby Throckmorton Thacher’s father, George Hornell Thacher II, provided his family with summer dwellings in Manchester, VT, from the late 1800 into the 1930s.  The exact locations and appearance of these summer homes has remained a personal curiosity.    Happily, the information in the link below came my way in recent months.   Ebby, in one of his talks, refers the these properties as “cottages” as was the popular trend of the upper class of that day  in describing their sometimes outlandishly large homes.  This word distinguishes “summer homes” from their main “manor house” where many servants, etc.,  were a greater necessity.

 

One disturbing fact is that Ebby during one of his talks* indicates that he was living directly across the street from the Burnham’s (Lois’ parents) which would place the location on the east side of Main Street.  Did Ebby misspeak? . . . or perhaps there is more yet to be revealed—history is that way!   Anyway, here is the link:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/102806363/Thachersh.pdf

 

 

Bob S.

·         Bill & Dr. Bob Speak,  AA cofounder’s Tell Their Stories, by Michael Fitzpatrick Page 16, 2nd full paragraph. 

 

 

rstonebraker212@comcast.net

 

| 10550|10550|2015-02-19 18:13:02|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Token of appreciation: looking up things in the AAHistoryLovers|
From: luvwindnwater@yahoo.com (luvwindnwater at yahoo.com)

In new sobriety (still, hit two years next month), when at a book study the question was asked what was the memento Bill's comrades gave to him, I eagerly assigned myself to find out. Through this site, AAHistoryLovers I was given the answer(s) And was thrilled to inform my group the following week.

Not only did that task help keep me sober a few more days, but sober long enough to find out about my "side of the street."

| 10552|10550|2015-02-19 18:19:04|AAHistoryLovers|Token of appreciation: looking up things in the AAHistoryLovers|
From: (jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com)

The Token of Appreciation given to Bill when he left the military:

Does anyone know what this token of appreciation consisted of?

____________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

If you go to this page, it will tell you how to search through the AAHistoryLovers messages.

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahistoryloversphotos01.html

When you then go to the page which it links to:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AAHistoryLovers/info

You can type in the words: Bill W's special token of appreciation

Messages to look at in particular:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AAHistoryLovers/conversations/messages/9937

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AAHistoryLovers/conversations/messages/9931

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator
AAHistoryLovers

| 10553|10544|2015-02-19 18:35:52|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Wilson's CAC Service in WW1|
From John Galt, iouaa, and wkoeritzer

****************************************
From: JohnGaltLives (johngaltredux at msn.com)

The 66th had 8" American Howitzers according to the web site.  I did not see anything on where they were stationed or what if any engagements they participated in.

Have to agree that artillery calibers have little to do with AA but it is important to be aware of the backgrounds of the founders.  Bill W. refers to his military service in "Alcoholics Anonymous" and it was certainly an influence on him.
****************************************
From: iouaa (philip.thompson80 at sky.com)

You never know that what is irrelevant to one person can help another--even the person helped does not, and will not, realize without the benfit of hindsight.
regards Phil
****************************************
From: (wkoeritzer at yahoo.com)

Never know when some detail makes some writ or action clearer.
****************************************

| 10554|10554|2015-02-19 18:39:09|AAHistoryLovers|When did Bill W. visit Winchester Cathedral?|
From: iouaa (philip.thompson80 at sky.com)

An unanswered question I have asked on this forum before: With his unit stuck there due to disease elsewhere, about what date did Bill W. visit the grave at Winchester cathederal?

regards Phil
__________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

My regular source of dependable dates, Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Narrative Timeline of AA History, gives us a terminus post quem of some point after the sea voyage which began on July 18, 1918:

"1918 - July 18, Bill sailed from Boston to NY Harbor on the British ship Lancashire. On the voyage to England, an officer shared brandy with him. Detained in London, Bill visited the Winchester Cathedral and experienced a "tremendous sense of presence." He read an epitaph on the headstone of a Hampshire Grenadier (Thomas Thetcher) later to be cited in the Big Book chapter “Bill’s Story.” (BW-RT 102-108, PIO 59-60, RAA 146)"

Can anybody give us a tighter date on this?

| 10555|10555|2015-02-20 17:18:42|AAHistoryLovers|Stepping Stones no longer on Feb. 24 agenda|
Stepping Stones is no longer on the Feb. 24 agenda for the Town of Bedford Town Board meeting

From: Stepping Stones (info at steppingstones.org)

Dear Friends,

Late today we learned that our Special Use Permit matter is no longer on the agenda for the Feb. 24 Town of Bedford Town Board meeting. It is postponed possibly until March.

Those who requested information on how to live stream the Town Board meetings, please go to the following webpage a few minutes before the meeting (once we know the date) and follow instructions:

http://bedfordny.granicus.com/ViewPublisher.php?view_id=2

Thank you for your support.

Sincerely,
Sally A. Corbett
Executive Director
Stepping Stones - Historic Home of Lois & Bill Wilson,
co-founders of Al-Anon & AA respectively
62 Oak Road
Katonah, NY 10536

| 10556|10544|2015-02-21 17:34:39|hdmozart|Re: Wilson's CAC Service in WW1|
Might this link prove helpful:

http://cdsg.org/old/reprint%20PDFs/CACreg1.pdf

pp40: 66th Coast Artillery (AA) Regiment

Constituted 1918 as 66th Arty, CAC, and organized at Ft. Adams 3-1-18 from personnel in CD Narragansett Bay. Departed Ft. Adams 7-18-18 and sailed from the Boston POE later in the month. Regiment (less Btry C) arrived in Le Havre 8-10-18. Btry C arrived Cherbourg 8-19-18. Assigned to Services of Supply and moved to Limoges (Haute-Vienne) where the 1st Bn remained until the Armistice. The 2nd and 3rd Bns moved to La Courtine (Crouse) on 11-6-18 and 11-10-18 respectively where they also remained until the Armistice. The regiment remained in France until shipped back to the U.S. 3-8-19 and demobilized at Cp. Upton, NY, 3-20-19.

The 66th Art, CAC, reconstituted 1-22-26, inactive in the RA, and allotted to the Panama Department. Reconstituted 8-10-32 and consolidated with 66th CA (AA) Regt. Withdrawn from the Panama Department and allotted to Puerto Rican Department 1-19-40.

1st Bn activated 2-1-40 at Cp. Buchanan, San Juan, PR, with personnel from 1st Bn, 69th CA (AA) Regt, which was inactivated. The 1st Bn moved to Borinquen Field, PR, 5-24-40 to 5-27-40 and conducted AA target practices. HHB, 66th CA (AA) Regt, activated 3-8-42. Reorganized 4-10-42; 3rd Bn redesignated 2nd Bn and new 3rd Bn activated 8-25-42. Regiment inactivated at Ft. Brooke, San Juan, 11-6-43 and HHB redesignated 135th AAA Gp; 1st Bn redesignated  66th AAA (Gun) Bn; 2nd Bn redesignated 910th AAA (AW) Bn; and 3rd Bn redesignated 293rd AAA (SL) Bn. 
| 10557|10557|2015-02-24 19:09:53|AAHistoryLovers|Roger W. - AA history and the military|
See http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html - a little over half way down the page

A.A. in the Military
and Military Alcoholism Treatment Programs


Roger W., "A New Pair of Goggles: AA History through a Military Lens and some Military History through an AA lens"

http://hindsfoot.org/military.doc

The text of a talk given at the 18th National A.A. Archives Workshop at King of Prussia, Pennsylvania (Oct. 9-12, 2014). The most complete and thorough study ever put together of this important area of A.A. history serves as a beautiful example of good historical research.
_____________________________________________


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRvuVXl3y0g

"Glenn Chesnut on Sgt. Bill Swegan" A video on William E. Swegan, born June 29, 1918, sober July 5, 1948, died August 17, 2008, 90 years old, sober 60 years. The incredible story of a man whose experience intersected many well known AA characters during the late 1940's and early 1950's was told in the autobiography of Sgt Bill S. His co-author Glenn Chesnut could not travel to the Fall 2014 King of Prussia workshop but sent his best and told this part of the story in a video which was shown at the workshop.

| 10558|10558|2015-03-04 13:35:54|robert stonebraker|Hazard Family residence in Peace Dale, RI|

I am hoping to locate a picture of the Hazard Family residence in Peace Dale, RI, named, “Oakwoods,” which burned down some years ago.  It was doubtless very large because they jokily named their cousin Leonard Bacon’s residence, “Acorns,” because it was smaller—Leonard’s “Acorns” house had 10 bedrooms!

 

Any help would be appreciated.  Please send picture to:

 

rstonebraker212@comcast.net

 

Thanks.

 

Bob S.

 

| 10559|10483|2015-03-04 13:38:07|aabookdude|Re: Why does Little Red Book change to "Orthodox Interpretation"|
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the "why" of the subtitle change is the same as it is for any other of the numerous and extensive revisions that were made to the Red Book over the 21 years it was overseen by Webster. That is to say, that it was just an attempt to clarify or explain in greater detail.

I think an additional reason is suggested by the definition of the word "orthodox" itself, which is:

"conforming to what is generally or tradionally accepted as right or true; established and approved."

As is generally known, both Ed's home group and his little book were very much in the tradition and style of Akron or Cleveland A.A. ideology. By the time Ed made this subtitle change, Dr. Bob (and his support of Webster's work) had been gone for 14 years. Bill W. had in that time become increasingly vocal about his dislike for the Red Book, owing to the fact that it had become something like an accepted A.A. textbook. The New York A.A. approach was becoming increasingly prevalent in both new and established groups. As newer generations came through the rooms, some aspects of the "old way" were lost or replaced.

It seems logical to assume that, by including the word "orthodox," Ed was effectively saying, "This is a trustworthy source for solid, tried and true information about the fundamentals."

It is interesting to note that, dating back to at least 1957, the dust jacket for the Red Book contained a blurb, which read in part: "Dr. Bob, co-founder, endorsed the book as 'most helpful.'" This, I think, is another solid example of Ed saying, "You can take this book seriously."

Just to contribute further to the subtitle confusion, I would add that on the dust jacket of both the "Interpretation" and the "Orthodox Interpretation," the book is subtitled "A Suggested Outline for Reference and Study of the Working Mechanics of The Twelve Steps."

All subtitles were dropped in 1986 when Hazelden undertook their most recent revision.
| 10560|10560|2015-03-06 12:24:00|aabookdude|The Little Red Book - deleted material.|

For the sake of individual study, and for historical interest, I think it is helpful to know what material has been cut from The Little Red Book by Hazelden in the course of their 48 year ownership of the book. There seem to be two distinct Hazelden revisions; one from 1970 and the more well known of the two undertaken in 1986. Over the span of a couple posts, I'm going to transcribe the material Hazelden cut, and note the revision during which it was cut.


But before we get into all that, it is important to remember that many of the most dramatic deletions and alterations were conducted by Ed Webster between 1946 and 1967. Indeed, even the earliest know mimeographed copy (from before the material was ever hardbound) bears the qualifier: "revised 6-5-45".


The period of greatest upheaval in the text occurred in the late 1940s to mid 1950s. Some of the more interesting cuts Ed made include the following material cut in 1950 from the chapter on Step Twelve:


"Anyone who, having been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous long enough to complete eleven steps, without a spiritual experience is either dishonest with himself or has completely missed the purpose of this program. He should discuss his case with some older understanding member who can aid him in surmounting his difficulties."


"Sponsorship has to with human life and happiness--is too serious a business to be trusted in the hands of any but a qualified member. Success in handling the new member is always a probelm, even under the best circumstances. We therefore feel that in justice to the new member it is imperative he be handled by an experienced sponsor."


Another good example is the following revision made to a passage from the chapter on Step Ten. In 1946, it read:


"Check yourself thoroughly. Don't make a farce of your life. You owe it to God, yourself and your family to make real headway. You must THINK SOBER and LIVE SOBER."


By 1967, the year of Ed's final revision, the same passage read:


"We do not make a farce of our lives when we employ our inventories. We should check ourselves thoroughly to make real headway. We owe it to God, to ourselves and our families. We must think sober to live sober."


The message is the same, but the verbiage has been softened.


In other cases, his revisions drastically alter the meaning of the text. Take, for instance, the following passage taken from a list of why some people fail in A.A.:


1946: "Some failed because they were dope addicts--they drank, yes--but alcohol was not their basic problem."


1967: "Self-administered sedation causes failure. Its use prevents the personality change so necessary to recovery from alcoholism."


At the same time (and with the same apparent energy and persistence) as he was cutting material, Ed was also expanded the book. In 47 the text that would later make up the "Drugs" portion of Step One and the "Mental Drunkenness" portion of Step Two were added. In a different 47 revision, extensive footnotes referencing the Big Book were added. In 48, the earliest version of the "Aids to Contented Sobriety" section was added, though it was greatly expanded and revised in both 49 and 50. In 50, the chapter summaries and appendices were added, and (surprise, surprise) those too were greatly reorganized and revised throughout the 50s as well.


By 1960, the book had reached relative homeostasis. At any rate, revisions from 1960 to 1967 can be measured in words rather than pages. In my next post, I'm going to document the more dramatic changes Hazelden made in 1970, which amounts to about four pages worth of excised material. To transcribe the material, I'll be using the final Ed Webster revision which Hazelden would have purchased the rights to in 1967.


| 10561|10561|2015-03-06 12:25:51|aabookdude|The Little Red Book - 1967 and 1970|

The final printing of the Red Book in its original 4.5 x 6.5 size was its stated twenty-fifth in 1970. At this point, The Story Behind the Little Red Book tells us, "In 1970, [...] Hazelden undertook another printing of the book under it's own copyright." This was the smaller, pocket size format still in use for hardcover today. McElrath's book goes on to explain how Hazelden neglected, for a time, to fulfill it's royalty contract with Webster, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.


The point is, any copy of the Red Book that is the same dimensions as a hardcover copy of Twenty-Four Hours a Day is a Hazelden revision. Rounded corner or square, this is true. The earliest printings of this version only indicated a 1957 Coll-Webb copyright date, and for that reason it is often mistakenly bought and sold as a 1957 printing. In the early 80s, the copyright page was updated to a 1970 Hazelden copyright. A true Coll-Webb 57 is in the larger format, doesn't include "Orthodox" in its subtitle, and doesn't have the appendices.


In the 1970 Edition, actual textual changes are few. By and large, this version is accurate and true to Webster's final revision. Mostly, only outright cuts were made. A good example of some of the minor copyediting that did occur sparingly throughout is as follows:


1967: "Our realization of God's help in the past impresses us with the fact that it can be utilized to even better use in the future."


1970: "Our realization of God's help in the past impresses us with the fact that it can be utilized even better in the future."


In other areas, mainly the "Introduction," small cuts were made to existing paragraphs. In the very first sentence of that chapter, we can note that the book is no longer "humbly offered;" it is simply "offered."


Other good examples of this are:


1967: "For those who qualify as real alcoholics and are willing to accept the A.A. program as a means of recovery from alcoholism, [...] ."


1970: "For those who are willing to accept the A.A. program as a means of recovery from alcoholism [...] ."


----


1967: "The A.A. program is designed for uncontrolled drinkers who sincerely desire permanent sobriety and are willing to go to any lengths to get it. But it invariably fails alcoholics who merely seek knowledge to control their drinking. Men or women interested in temporary sobriety or in controlling their drinking are not ready for this program.* [* See chapter 3, paragraph 10, in the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous.']"


1970: "The A.A. program is designed for uncontrolled drinkers who sincerely desire sobriety and are willing to go to any lengths to get it. But it invariably fails alcoholics who merely seek knowledge to control their drinking." [end of paragraph]


----


A large cut was made in the "Drugs" section of Step One. The following text was a third paragraph in the 1967 Edition:


"By drugs we mean bromides, chloral hydrate, paraldehyde, barbiturates, tranquilizers, opiates and benzedrine. We know from experience the unsatisfactory record of A.A. members who continue willfully to use them. We know that these drugs change our mental processes. They prevent honesty and realism. Our 24-hour program of A.A. living demands Faith in a Power Greater than Ourselves rather than drugs. It is wise to seek God's help for our problems and to entirely eliminate all self-sedation."


----


By far the largest cut of all came out of the "Introduction." It is comprised of what was nearly four full pages in the 1967 Edition. It is interesting to note that this section, while revised several times, was included in some form or another in all Coll-Webb printings of the book.


Note: the following section would appear between the paragraphs beginning "Daily sobriety" and "For those who are willing" in either a 1970 or 1986 revision.

--------

The Twelve Steps are not a hit-and-miss program. We should not treat them so. They may be our last port of call. A.A. members seldom fail to gain contented sobriety who admit their alcoholism and conscientiously follow the A.A. Way of Life.

It is true certain members have not succeeded. A few of the reasons for their failures are listed.

1. Those who see in alcoholism a moral problem rather than a fatal illness.

2. Some had suffered advanced brain injury from alcohol. (Deterioration.)

3. Self-administered sedation causes failure. Its use prevents the personality change so necessary to recovery from alcoholism.

4. Some were forced into the movement; they lacked sincerity, so did not last.

5. Some were heavy drinkers, but were not real alcoholics.

6. Occasionally there has been an atheist who is unwilling to accept the spiritual concept of A.A. (See Appendix 2 of original Big Book or pages 569 and 570, second edition.)

7. The alcoholic who is "constitutionally dishonest" has little chance.* He cannot be honest with himself. [*Read paragraph 1, chapter 5, in the Big Book.]

8. Some sought our help to appease their wives, their employers, or a judge; others to avoid impending evils that prolonged drinking develops. Theirs was a temporary problem. We have nothing to offer such people until they definitely qualify themselves as alcoholics and desire to stop drinking.

9. Those with relatively short alcoholic histories, to whom drinking is more an inconvenience than a matter of life or death.

10. Those who accept only part of the Twelve-Step Program, who will not try to live it in its entirety. Those who wish to place a distorted selfish interpretation on all of the steps for purposes of their own convenience.

11. Those who are psychotic.

Members falling under any of the groups listed, with the possible exception of group 9, have little chance of recovery until they see in alcoholism a fatal illness, and are vitally interested in getting well.

Members shown under go up 9 can recover if they are alcoholic. But not "on the basis of self-knowledge" alone. Having suffered but little damage they must be open-minded to profit from the bitter experiences of others. Their recovery demands admitting utter defeat. It requires serious, daily 12 Step treatment of their alcoholic illness.* [*Read paragraphs 28-29, chapter 3, in Big Book.]

Some people reason that although they are not alcoholic, alcoholism could be avoided by belonging to an A.A. group. This is questionable for it is not until the alcoholic has severely punished himself and his family that he gives serious thought to the arresting of his alcoholism. Even then he must prove to himself that he "can't take it." We must pound our heads for a long time against the rough wall of alcoholism before we are convinced.** [*See page 24, lines 10-11, "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions."] [aabookdude's note: These references to the 12&12 won't match modern printings. You need to get one from the 70s or earlier for it to line up correctly.]

--------


There are at least three or four other instances of minor changes in the 1970 revision. Being mostly single word drops, I won't take the time to list them here. In my next post, I'll be looking at major deletions that took place during the much maligned 86 revision.





| 10562|10562|2015-03-06 12:27:05|aabookdude|The Little Red Book - the 1986 revision|

In certain respects, the 1986 revision presents the most difficult challenges to a person hoping to catalog textual differences in the various Editions of The Little Red Book. It is hard to find a single paragraph in the book that did not undergo at least some punctuation changes at that time. Conversely, very little was changed so much that it doesn't convey at least the same basic message as Webster's wording did.


Still another hurdle to clear is that so many A.A. history buffs seem to genuinely dislike or at least distrust this version.  Also, it is still unknown (so far as I am aware) just who was in charge of revising the book. Was it a Hazelden staffer, a professional editor; was this person even an alcoholic? We're they at all familiar with the A.A. program? But, setting these controversial issues aside, I'm going to go out on a limb here and actually say a few words in defense of the 86 revision.


The first point to consider is consistency. The current version has been in print, entirely unchanged, for 29 years. That's eight years longer than the full span of time the book was in Webster's hands. During its first 14 years of publication, no more than two would go by without his somehow altering the text, sometimes dramtically. He produced such an array of versions, that I like to sum it up this way:


Imagine, if you will, that you're at a Red Book study meeting in 1955. There are six other members attending. You have all brought your personal copies of the book, purchased at the time you got sober, roughly a year apart from one another. The odds are that none of you will have the same material in your copies, and even if you do, it won't be on the same page.


Nowadays, members getting sober decades apart have the same Red Book as point of reference, down to the very page and paragraph numbers. As the Big Book has evidenced, there's something to be said for that.


Another thing to consider is this: Ed's writing was clunky, or at very least cumbersome, at times. I personally enjoy it, but a) dude was not a professional writer, and b) dude was born in 1892. Growing up, he would have read his share of extremely tiresome and wordy books written by people who couldn't agree on spelling or grammar. I'm not trying to knock Ed here, but let's take an example.


Ed's wording: "Knowledge of the need of this step is based on the past experience of A.A. members, some of whom have demonstrated the ability to forget that they Have Not Been Cured of Alcoholism."


1986 wording: "We know this Step is needed, because of the past experiences of AA members who forgot they have not been cured of alcoholism."


Does this alteration in any way harm the delivery of Ed's general message? No. At least, I don't think so. Does it clean up sentence structure and do away with some weird capitalizations and italics? Clearly it does.


And so it is with most of the revisions in this Edition. One thing that can be said in favor of whoever undertook the work is that they almost never inject themselves into the text. That is to say that while there were extensive changes made, there is almost no "new material." About their only insertion into the book is the article on anger in Step Four. There, somebody, presumably the editor, has almost entirely rewritten Ed's interpretation. The resulting text has a much more "pop psychology" feel to it, very much in the same tone as other Hazeen books from the 80s.


We are taken from: 

Ed: "There is no single instance covered in the Twelve Steps where anger offers any benefit."


To:

1986: "Anger in itself is a legitimate feeling, but it can be misused by indulging in it or by dumping it unfairly on others."


Nearly the entire article is rewritten to read, I'm sorry to say it, like a group therapy or treatment leaders guidebook. I'll transcribe the older version if anyone expresses interest, but it's too lengthy for me to undertake unprovoked.


The actual large chunks of text removed are few, coming only out the articles on Steps Eleven and Twelve.


--------

In Step Eleven:


1967:

Criticism, even when in order, should be of a constructive nature. When offered it should be of cooperative intent, not the result of resentment or envy.

The older members make moves or advocate policies that are generally sound and wise as they base them on understanding of past experiences. The newer man may question them and through lack of understanding talked a fixed stand against their adoption.

We are, therefore, cautioned against questioning the acts of any member until we know his motive, until we know he is wrong. If he is right we could easily be questioning the will of God. Our purpose is to conform to it, Never to Oppose It.


1986:

Sometimes criticism of someone's actions is in order; if so, it can be of a constructive nature and not the result of resentment or envy. Our purpose is to conform to the will of God, never to Oppose it.

--------


In the 1967 (and 70) versions of the article on Step Twelve, this section appeared in the "Sponsorship" subdivision, immediately following the section entitled "Locating Perspective Members."


QUALIFICATIONS OF THE NEWCOMER

Since the Big Book says that "our only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking," the casual sponsor is apt to overlook a preliminary requirement of the prospective member.

This qualification is identified in the second and third lines of Step Twelve. It states, "We tried to carry this message to other alcoholics." Such is the purpose of sponsorship. It is attained when we bring receptive alcoholics into A.A. and work with them and their families until they recover sufficiently to stand upon their own feet.

Demands on the prospect are few--three in all, to be exact. They are definite, however, if he hopes to recover from alcoholism in A.A. It is imperative that the prospect:

1. Be an alcoholic.

2. Wants to quit drinking.

3. Calls A.A. for help

Abhorrent as the word must is to an alcoholic, successful sponsors require these qualifications of a newcomer. Thus they conserve time and effort and avoid involving A.A. in embarrassing situations.

This is but the start of the project's requirements, for once in A.A. he will have to make an all-out effort to live the program to achieve lasting sobriety and to develop his spiritual qualities for future sponsorship.

--------


In summary, it is pretty easy to understand why Hazelden made the cuts they did. It was mostly the hardcore "take it or leave it" stuff that was removed in both 70 and 86. I suppose it could be argued that the excised passages conflict with any number of the Traditions, which is not something I care to get into now.

I will say, at least, that the deleted passages don't jibe with the touchier-feelier A.A. that began to take root in the 1970s. They're rougher around the edges, and not necessarily as palatable or easy to digest. It is important to remember also that Hazelden is in the treatment business, and as such are more easily swayed by the changing "chemical dependency" winds than, say, A.A.W.S., Inc. would be. Still and all, the Red Book is pretty hardcore, even in its current state. Really, though, I suppose it is up to each of us to judge for ourselves the validity of Hazelden's various decisions... and, for that matter, Ed Webster's.





| 10563|10563|2015-03-06 12:27:39|aabookdude|Little Red Book paragraph comparison.|

Just because I'm on a roll with these Red Book topics, I thought it might be fun to compare the same paragraph over the course of several revisions. This exercise should give us a pretty good idea of the sorts of changes that were made to the book over a broader range of its history. So far as I am aware, the paragraph(s) below can be found in very printing of the book, in some form or another. I'd be curious, if anyone could help fill in the gaps in my list, to see this section represented in some printings from the mid to late '50s.


1946 (First Edition):

Permanent sobriety is the aim of the A.A. philosophy, but that in itself is not enough, for with it we must become contented, happy, responsible people.


1947 (misprinted title version):

Permanent sobriety is the aim of the A.A. philosophy, but that in itself is not enough. In addition, we become contented, happy, responsible people.


1949 [as recorded from a 50th Anniversary reprint]:

Permanent sobriety is the aim of the A.A. philosophy, but that in itself is not enough.

In addition, we become contented, happy, responsible people. [two paragraphs]


1951:

Permanent sobriety is the aim of the A.A. philosophy, but that in itself is not enough. We should become humble and appreciative; contented, happy and responsible.


1967 (Twenty-first printing, Ed's final revision):

Daily sobriety is the simple aim of A.A. But plain sobriety is not enough. We must acquire honesty, humility, appreciation and kill self-centeredness to keep sober.


The 1970 Hazelden revision is the same as Ed's '67. The '86 Hazelden differs only in that it adds a comma after "appreciation."






| 10564|10564|2015-03-06 15:13:41|timothybradley91|Henry Schwering|
Any idea, according to Henrietta S, why Bill W didn't allow Henry Schwering into convention?

Any details appreciated. 

Thanks!


Tim Bradley
917.361.7343
| 10565|10561|2015-03-06 15:15:11|Tom Hickcox|Re: The Little Red Book - 1967 and 1970|
On 3/5/2015 00:33, aabookdude@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:


The point is, any copy of the Red Book that is the same dimensions as a hardcover copy of Twenty-Four Hours a Day is a Hazelden revision. Rounded corner or square, this is true. The earliest printings of this version only indicated a 1957 Coll-Webb copyright date, and for that reason it is often mistakenly bought and sold as a 1957 printing. In the early 80s, the copyright page was updated to a 1970 Hazelden copyright. A true Coll-Webb 57 is in the larger format, doesn't include "Orthodox" in its subtitle, and doesn't have the appendices.



Thanks for doing all this work and sharing it with us.

It is remarkable, is written well, and shows a lot of attention to detail.  It gives me a headache thinking of doing it.

I have identified seven different versions based on the covers of the initial smaller format LRBs with a 1957 copyright.  These and the large format editions have been the focus of my interests in the book.

As far as you know, are the texts of these seven identical?

I can provide a tabulation of the differences in these seven editions.  Send me a request b/c.

When are you going to do the same thing for the 24 Hour book?  ;)

Tommy H
Danville, Ky
| 10566|10566|2015-03-06 15:37:04|Glenn Chesnut|Recollections - tributes - Ernie Kurtz memorial service|
Ernie Kurtz Memorial Service
Wednesday, April 22, 2015

From Bill White:

Dear Friends,

Linda Kurtz has informed me that a memorial service for Ernie Kurtz is set for 1:00 PM on April 22, 2015 at Dawn Farm – Ypsilanti, Michigan, 6633 Stony Creek Road, Ypsilanti, MI 48197 (734) 485-8725.

(Dawn Farm is the local addiction treatment program that Ernie had long supported.)

Some people who will not be able to travel the long distance to attend this service have asked if it would be possible to provide a short remembrance or tribute to Ernie that could be shared with Ernie’s family, read at the service, or posted later.

Such recollections and tributes can be emailed to Ernie’s wife, Linda Kurtz, at  lkurtz@emich.edu (lkurtz at emich.edu).

Appreciatively,

Bill

From the moderator: Ypsilanti, Michigan is a town of 19,000, to the west of Detroit, just off the I-94 Interstate that connects Detroit and Chicago. Ypsilanti is only 20 miles from the Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport. For more about Dawn Farm, see http://www.dawnfarm.org/programs/residential-treatment/

| 10567|10558|2015-03-07 12:36:00|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Hazard Family residence in Peace Dale, RI|
jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) sent us a photo of the Hazard Family residence in Peace Dale, Rhode Island.

Caroline Hazard, Oakwoods, 1908 postcard.

It is posted on the AA History Lovers photo page (down at the bottom) at:
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahistoryloversphotos01.html
_____________________________________________

Original message from: Bob S. (Richmond, Indiana)
rstonebraker212@comcast.net (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

I am hoping to locate a picture of the Hazard Family residence in Peace Dale, Rhode Island, named, "Oakwoods," which burned down some years ago.  It was doubtless very large because they jokily named their cousin Leonard Bacon's residence, "Acorns," because it was smaller -- Leonard's "Acorns" house had 10 bedrooms!

| 10568|10562|2015-03-08 12:25:17|Dorothy T|Re: The Little Red Book - the 1986 revision|
Many thanks  aabookdude for sharing so much info on The Little Red Book... which I've read with great interest. You mentioned you might transcribe the original article about anger. I'm sure it's a lot of work but I'd be very grateful!

Peace,
Dorothy


On Mar 5, 2015, at 1:30 AM, aabookdude@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

In certain respects, the 1986 revision presents the most difficult challenges to a person hoping to catalog textual differences in the various Editions of The Little Red Book. It is hard to find a single paragraph in the book that did not undergo at least some punctuation changes at that time. Conversely, very little was changed so much that it doesn't convey at least the same basic message as Webster's wording did.


Still another hurdle to clear is that so many A.A. history buffs seem to genuinely dislike or at least distrust this version.  Also, it is still unknown (so far as I am aware) just who was in charge of revising the book. Was it a Hazelden staffer, a professional editor; was this person even an alcoholic? We're they at all familiar with the A.A. program? But, setting these controversial issues aside, I'm going to go out on a limb here and actually say a few words in defense of the 86 revision.


The first point to consider is consistency. The current version has been in print, entirely unchanged, for 29 years. That's eight years longer than the full span of time the book was in Webster's hands. During its first 14 years of publication, no more than two would go by without his somehow altering the text, sometimes dramtically. He produced such an array of versions, that I like to sum it up this way:


Imagine, if you will, that you're at a Red Book study meeting in 1955. There are six other members attending. You have all brought your personal copies of the book, purchased at the time you got sober, roughly a year apart from one another. The odds are that none of you will have the same material in your copies, and even if you do, it won't be on the same page.


Nowadays, members getting sober decades apart have the same Red Book as point of reference, down to the very page and paragraph numbers. As the Big Book has evidenced, there's something to be said for that.


Another thing to consider is this: Ed's writing was clunky, or at very least cumbersome, at times. I personally enjoy it, but a) dude was not a professional writer, and b) dude was born in 1892. Growing up, he would have read his share of extremely tiresome and wordy books written by people who couldn't agree on spelling or grammar. I'm not trying to knock Ed here, but let's take an example.


Ed's wording: "Knowledge of the need of this step is based on the past experience of A.A. members, some of whom have demonstrated the ability to forget that they Have Not Been Cured of Alcoholism."


1986 wording: "We know this Step is needed, because of the past experiences of AA members who forgot they have not been cured of alcoholism."


Does this alteration in any way harm the delivery of Ed's general message? No. At least, I don't think so. Does it clean up sentence structure and do away with some weird capitalizations and italics? Clearly it does.


And so it is with most of the revisions in this Edition. One thing that can be said in favor of whoever undertook the work is that they almost never inject themselves into the text. That is to say that while there were extensive changes made, there is almost no "new material." About their only insertion into the book is the article on anger in Step Four. There, somebody, presumably the editor, has almost entirely rewritten Ed's interpretation. The resulting text has a much more "pop psychology" feel to it, very much in the same tone as other Hazeen books from the 80s.


We are taken from: 

Ed: "There is no single instance covered in the Twelve Steps where anger offers any benefit."


To:

1986: "Anger in itself is a legitimate feeling, but it can be misused by indulging in it or by dumping it unfairly on others."


Nearly the entire article is rewritten to read, I'm sorry to say it, like a group therapy or treatment leaders guidebook. I'll transcribe the older version if anyone expresses interest, but it's too lengthy for me to undertake unprovoked.


The actual large chunks of text removed are few, coming only out the articles on Steps Eleven and Twelve.


--------

In Step Eleven:


1967:

Criticism, even when in order, should be of a constructive nature. When offered it should be of cooperative intent, not the result of resentment or envy.

The older members make moves or advocate policies that are generally sound and wise as they base them on understanding of past experiences. The newer man may question them and through lack of understanding talked a fixed stand against their adoption.

We are, therefore, cautioned against questioning the acts of any member until we know his motive, until we know he is wrong. If he is right we could easily be questioning the will of God. Our purpose is to conform to it, Never to Oppose It.


1986:

Sometimes criticism of someone's actions is in order; if so, it can be of a constructive nature and not the result of resentment or envy. Our purpose is to conform to the will of God, never to Oppose it.

--------


In the 1967 (and 70) versions of the article on Step Twelve, this section appeared in the "Sponsorship" subdivision, immediately following the section entitled "Locating Perspective Members."


QUALIFICATIONS OF THE NEWCOMER

Since the Big Book says that "our only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking," the casual sponsor is apt to overlook a preliminary requirement of the prospective member.

This qualification is identified in the second and third lines of Step Twelve. It states, "We tried to carry this message to other alcoholics." Such is the purpose of sponsorship. It is attained when we bring receptive alcoholics into A.A. and work with them and their families until they recover sufficiently to stand upon their own feet.

Demands on the prospect are few--three in all, to be exact. They are definite, however, if he hopes to recover from alcoholism in A.A. It is imperative that the prospect:

1. Be an alcoholic.

2. Wants to quit drinking.

3. Calls A.A. for help

Abhorrent as the word must is to an alcoholic, successful sponsors require these qualifications of a newcomer. Thus they conserve time and effort and avoid involving A.A. in embarrassing situations.

This is but the start of the project's requirements, for once in A.A. he will have to make an all-out effort to live the program to achieve lasting sobriety and to develop his spiritual qualities for future sponsorship.

--------


In summary, it is pretty easy to understand why Hazelden made the cuts they did. It was mostly the hardcore "take it or leave it" stuff that was removed in both 70 and 86. I suppose it could be argued that the excised passages conflict with any number of the Traditions, which is not something I care to get into now.

I will say, at least, that the deleted passages don't jibe with the touchier-feelier A.A. that began to take root in the 1970s. They're rougher around the edges, and not necessarily as palatable or easy to digest. It is important to remember also that Hazelden is in the treatment business, and as such are more easily swayed by the changing "chemical dependency" winds than, say, A.A.W.S., Inc. would be. Still and all, the Red Book is pretty hardcore, even in its current state. Really, though, I suppose it is up to each of us to judge for ourselves the validity of Hazelden's various decisions... and, for that matter, Ed Webster's.





| 10569|10569|2015-03-09 12:23:06|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|FW: 2015 RECOVERY FROM ADDICTION CONFERENCE, UNIVERSITY OF CHESTER, |
From: j.stoner@chester.ac.uk
To: troberts@chester.ac.uk
Subject: FW: 2015 RECOVERY FROM ADDICTION CONFERENCE, UNIVERSITY OF CHESTER, Monday 2nd & Tuesday 3rd November 2015
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 15:18:54 +0000
















ADVANCE NOTICE & BOOKING:
2015 RECOVERY FROM ADDICTION CONFERENCE















UNIVERSITY OF CHESTER, Monday 2nd & Tuesday 3rd November 2015








Hi
As a supporter of our work at Chester, we thought that you might be interested in advance notice of our conference on 2&3 November 2015. The structure of the conference
will be similar to that in previous years and we have attracted a wide range of prominent speakers:
Day 1: Conference
Speakers will examine a range of specific different religious/spiritual traditions, as well as addressing general issues. Alongside the teachings of some of these traditions, consideration
is given to the �secular� spirituality of the 12 Step Programs of Alcoholics Anonymous and the other Mutual Aid programmes.
Contributors will include:
Prof Chris Cook (co-editor, Durham University),
Dr Wendy Dossett (co-editor, University of Chester)
Dr Mansur Ali:
Cardiff University. Drug addiction in Islamic history and theology.
Dr Paramabandhu Groves: Camden and Islington NHS Trust. Buddhist approaches to addiction recovery.
Dr James Holt: University of Chester. A Latter-day Saint approach to addiction.
Dr Harshad Keval: Canterbury Christchurch University: Sikh spirituality and recovery from addiction.
Professor Kate Loewenthal: University of London: Royal Holloway. Alcohol and substance misuse in Judaism.
Dr Suzanne Owen: University of Chester. Native American recovery programmes.


Public Lecture (Evening)

�Scientific & Social Aspects of Recovery � the Roles of Mutual Aid and Community Initiatives�
Prof John F. Kelly,
Harvard Medical School & President of the Society of Addiction Psychology

of the American Psychological Association.

Day 2: Practitioners� Seminar


Speakers will examine current areas of academic, policy and practice activity around recovery methodology evidence-base, stigma and inequality, ABCD, the Fifth Wave, the self-narrative
and the life-journey in recovery. There will also be contributions on the use of new PHE tools and examples of successful projects aiming to help improve engagement with Mutual Aid and community-based recovery initiatives.
Contributions from prominent workers in the field will include:
Prof John Kelly:
Harvard Medical School. A theoretical framework for understanding addiction recovery and how mutual-aid/recovery support services are using these explanatory theories


Mark Gilman:
Public health England. Can Recovery Go Up as Funding Goes Down?
Tony Mercer:
Public Health England. Promoting mutual-aid through evidence, intelligence and professional development.
Prof Gabriel Segal:
King�s College London. A scientific explanation of a spiritual solution: why 12-step recovery works.
Alistair Sinclair:
UK Recovery Federation, Responding to the Age of Dislocation, will ABCD and the Fifth Wave connect us?
Prof David Best: Sheffield Hallam University, Stigma, exclusion and access to community capital: realising a therapeutic landscape of
recovery

Further details and booking arrangements are attached. If you have any queries please contact
Tim Roberts: troberts@chester.ac.uk
Tel:
07917-092757

Best
wishes,
John
Prof
John Stoner
CSARS
Group
University
of Chester












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 10570|10562|2015-03-17 15:43:15|aabookdude|Re: The Little Red Book - the 1986 revision|
Below is the "Anger" article as it appeared as early 1967 through the 1986 Hazelden revision.. For what it's worth, I would add that this part of the Red Book was changed very little from '46 to '67. I recommend that everyone interested in the history of Ed's book pick up a copy of The Little Red Book: The Original 1946 Edition from Amazon.

--------
 
There is no single instance covered in the Twelve Steps where anger offers any benefit. We are led to believe, however, that it is a sort of mental poison that has the power to induce confused thinking and that under its sway we are more than apt to eventually resume the use of alcohol.
 
Anger is antagonistic to our philosophy. It overrides reason. Rehabilitation of an alcoholic "marks time" and progress stops so long as anger dominates. Various degrees of anger ranging from indignation to fury indicate diversified hazards to the member who makes his mind and actions subject to this strong emotion.
 
The following quotation from our A.A. Book clearly predicts impending danger to those of us who allow ourselves to become bitterly provoked: "If we were to live we had to be free from anger. The grouch and the brainstorm were not for us. They may be the dubious luxury of normal men, but for the alcoholic these things are poison."
 
A simple analysis of this emotion should curb our further indulgences. In it the impulse to injure either friend or enemy is always present. When fully aroused the end use of this impulse is to kill.
 
The alcoholic is only human. He will be subject to all human impulses and often faced by conditions that arouse him, but he need not be ignorant of the treacherous nature of anger or the insidious inroads its impulses can make upon his recovery.
 
In compiling our inventories let us keep in mind the fact that we are alcoholics, that we are sick physically, mentally, and spiritually; that we have been unable to recover from our illness through our own efforts, but that thousands of alcoholics before us have effected their recovery by exchanging their alcoholic personalities for the happy, sober personalities brought about by the A.A. way of living. With this in mind, we call upon a Power Greater than Ourselves to help guide us in making a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves as one of the steps necessary for our inventory.

--------

Thanks to Larry H. for his help with the transcription.

| 10571|10561|2015-03-17 15:43:32|aabookdude|Re: The Little Red Book - 1967 and 1970|
Thanks for your kind words, Tommy. I likely would not have even become interested in the a red Book were it not for the knowledgeable and thorough posts you made about it some years back.

To (sort of) answer your question: Yes. So far as I know, all printings of Hazelden's pocket sized "Orthodox" Red Book contain the same text. At one point, I had about 13 or 14 distinct, identifiable printings of that version (with either a '57 or '70 copyright), and they all appeared textually identical. I noted that even typos were reprinted exactly for the entire duration. That said, I will add that I never went through each copy I had line by line, so I'm not 100% sure.


---In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

On 3/5/2015 00:33, aabookdude@... [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:


The point is, any copy of the Red Book that is the same dimensions as a hardcover copy of Twenty-Four Hours a Day is a Hazelden revision. Rounded corner or square, this is true. The earliest printings of this version only indicated a 1957 Coll-Webb copyright date, and for that reason it is often mistakenly bought and sold as a 1957 printing. In the early 80s, the copyright page was updated to a 1970 Hazelden copyright. A true Coll-Webb 57 is in the larger format, doesn't include "Orthodox" in its subtitle, and doesn't have the appendices.



Thanks for doing all this work and sharing it with us.

It is remarkable, is written well, and shows a lot of attention to detail.  It gives me a headache thinking of doing it.

I have identified seven different versions based on the covers of the initial smaller format LRBs with a 1957 copyright.  These and the large format editions have been the focus of my interests in the book.

As far as you know, are the texts of these seven identical?

I can provide a tabulation of the differences in these seven editions.  Send me a request b/c.

When are you going to do the same thing for the 24 Hour book?  ;)

Tommy H
Danville, Ky
| 10572|10572|2015-03-17 15:44:32|Your, Jeff|Edison's test|
I recall reading some time back on this board that Bill W. sat for the exam that Thomas Edison used to pre-qualify applicants to work in his laboratories.  I just ran across the test and its answers at

​As mentioned in prior posts # 6805, 10135

--

Jeff
Jeffrey A. Your,

​P57/A54

216.397.4244 work      216.397.1803 fax      216.496.7594 cell 

 

| 10573|8666|2015-03-18 11:16:16|Tom Hickcox|Re: Inside the Working Manuscript of Twenty-Four Hours a Day|
On 9/19/2012 16:52, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> Instead, during the period when AA was growing and expanding with incredible speed, AA members were primarily reading and studying the Big Book, Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount, James Allen's As a Man Thinketh, The Upper Room, the little pamphlet called the Detroit or Washington D.C. pamphlet (also called the Tablemate or Table Leader's Guide), Ed Webster's Little Red Book, Ralph Pfau's Golden Books
> (written under the pen name of Father John Doe), eventually Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions -- AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day.
>
> The point where AA membership ceased to grow was when increasing numbers of AA groups and intergroups in very recent years began forbidding their members from reading ALL of the preceding works except for the Big Book and the 12 and 12. What you have presented in most AA groups in the US and Canada today is no longer real old time AA.


Can someone give me an approximate publication date for the Washington
Pamphlet?


I've seen two dates for the original Akron Manual, 1940 and 1942. Are
these reasonable dates?


Tommy H
Danville, Ky
| 10574|10574|2015-03-18 11:16:46|Barry Murtaugh|Drop the Rock book|
A long timer came up to me tonight at Realtime meeting and asked seriously about the book "Drop the Rock" being "AA approved"
He said he heard that the process was underway and on agenda for GSC.
Sounds more than a little odd to me.
More AA gossip and special interest group cheerleading most likely.
I told him it was next to impossible any more to get anything except translations through to Conference Approved status. ( BTW he personally worked on the Croatian translation of the Big Book)
Anyone out there have insights?


Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile


Sent from my iPad
| 10575|10574|2015-03-18 14:37:04|Greg Hughes|Re: Drop the Rock book|
Yes, I have insights and no, it's not on the conference agenda. The following are what the literature committee will be doing at Conference this year.

A.     Consider the revised draft pamphlet "Inside A.A.: Understanding the Fellowship and
Its Service Agencies" with the new title "Inside A.A.: Understanding the Fellowship and
Its Services."
B.      Consider the revised draft pamphlet "Your A.A. General Service Office."
C.      Consider updating the pamphlet "A.A. and the Gay/Lesbian Alcoholic."
D.      Consider developing literature for the alcoholic with mental health issues.
E.      Consider producing a book combining Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions with the
Twelve Concepts for World Service.
F.       Consider updating the pamphlet "A.A. for the Woman."
G.      Review the full text of "The A.A.W.S., Inc. Policy on Publication of Literature."

Greg Hughes
Baton Rouge, LA
(504) 388-2477


From: "Barry Murtaugh murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 10:19 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Drop the Rock book

 
A long timer came up to me tonight at Realtime meeting and asked seriously about the book "Drop the Rock" being "AA approved"
He said he heard that the process was underway and on agenda for GSC.
Sounds more than a little odd to me.
More AA gossip and special interest group cheerleading most likely.
I told him it was next to impossible any more to get anything except translations through to Conference Approved status. ( BTW he personally worked on the Croatian translation of the Big Book)
Anyone out there have insights?

Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile

Sent from my iPad


| 10576|10576|2015-03-18 14:37:28|robert stonebraker|Request|

I am hoping to find a picture of the Albany, NY, home where Ebby Thacher lived during the early 1900s.  A hopeful thanks.

 

Bob S.

 

rstonebraker212@comcast.net

 

| 10577|10577|2015-03-18 14:39:23|Glenn Chesnut|The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy|
THE SERENITY PRAYER and its ancient Greek and Roman philosophical background:

On the way back along the muddy dirt road from the Sedona Mago AA History Symposium on March 1st, Bill S. and I discussed the Serenity Prayer. I made the comment in quotation marks below, about what people would have thought had they seen the Serenity Prayer carved on a stone wall in ancient Athens, and Bill asked me if I could put this down in writing. My attempt is the first selection below. The other is a class handout which I distributed to my Roman history class at Indiana University seventeen years ago, which helps give a bit more detail.
_________________________________

The Serenity Prayer and the Philosophers of the Painted Porch: Serenity and Courage in Ancient Greco-Roman Stoic Philosophy, by Glenn F. Chesnut (March 2015).
http://hindsfoot.org/serenity1.doc

"If we translated the Serenity Prayer into classical Greek and used a time machine to travel back two thousand years and carve it on the wall of a building in ancient Athens, the people who passed by would glance at it and assume it had been carved there by an ancient Stoic philosopher, one of that small band of extraordinarily courageous people called the Philosophers of the Stoa, that is, the Philosophers of the Painted Porch: 'Zeus, grant me the apatheia to accept ta ouk eph' hêmin, the andreia to change ta eph' hêmin, and the sophia to know the difference.'"
_________________________________

Epictetus: the Diatribai or Discourses, by Glenn F. Chesnut.
http://hindsfoot.org/serenity2.doc

Handout for his Roman history students, March 1998, with detailed notes on their reading selections in Epictetus' Discourses. Gives more detail about the way the twelve steps can be interpreted (fourth step and so on) in Stoic philosophical terms, and the Stoic understanding of the higher Power (the Logos) as the laws of nature and the natural moral law (based on reason, logic, and the observation of human societies around the world).

| 10578|10577|2015-03-18 15:54:19|Tom Hickcox|Re: The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy|
On 3/18/2015 17:35, Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
"If we translated the Serenity Prayer into classical Greek and used a time machine to travel back two thousand years and carve it on the wall of a building in ancient Athens, the people who passed by would glance at it and assume it had been carved there by an ancient Stoic philosopher, one of that small band of extraordinarily courageous people called the Philosophers of the Stoa, that is, the Philosophers of the Painted Porch: 'Zeus, grant me the apatheia to accept ta ouk eph' hêmin, the andreia to change ta eph' hêmin, and the sophia to know the difference.'"

Elisabeth Sifton, Reinhold Niebuhr's daughter, says in her book "The Serenity Prayer" that there is an error in the prayer as we now hear it in A.A. meetings.  Somehow, the phrase "Change the things we should" in the original has become "Change the things we can."  This says we should change anything we can, regardless of the moral or spiritual implications.

Makes sense to me.

Tommy H
Danville, Ky

| 10579|10579|2015-03-18 15:55:28|garylock7008|How to generate Interest in archives|
Hi AA History Lovers Group - I have an excellent opportunity to get AA members interested in Archives and AA History. We are having an archives workshop (free) in Hamilton Ontario, Canada eh! on April 25th 2015 - being held at the Perkin Centre 1429 Main Street @10:00 am - my topic is "how to get newcomers interest in archives" - I am hoping members of this group can recall what/when/where they came to believe in AA archives - I will use the responses to formulate a 35-40 minute presentation for all who attend. You can email me direct: garylock7008@yahoo.ca
Looking forward to some interesting takes on our passion - thanking all in advance.
Gary


From Gary's iPhone 5 with rule62 in effect
| 10580|10579|2015-03-19 10:05:59|Thom Bone|Re: How to generate Interest in archives|

I became interested for one main reason and many smaller others. I will give you the main one first: I realized through archives research and continuous study that the early members were just as human as we are and made many if not more of the same mistakes so common in AA today. Yet, AA doesn't collapse. The fact that somehow, in some way, this deal has survived almost in spite of ourselves is, to me, tangible proof of a Higher Power at work. AA seemingly grows in spite of us, not merely because of us. It proves to me that the Group Conscience is real. Archives study increases the width and depth of my conscious contact with this concept. And? It is just plain fascinating besides. :)

I am currently doing an ongoing beginners workshop in Seattle right now with almost 30 people in it. It meets twice a week on opposite sides of town on Mondays and Fridays, the Friday workshop being a repeat of whatever we got to cover on Monday. Then on the following Monday, the course advances. I am basing it off of how Cleveland and other cities did group sponsorship when AA was exploding in growth in the early 1940s (using direct sponsorship, group sponsorship, sharing partners, group "confession" and more. Part of the course gives people a chance to experience all of these approaches and more). That being said, I also acknowledge Wally P's excellent "Back to Basics" interpretation and it is wonderful and well researched (I certainly cannot find anything inaccurate in his book), but what I am doing is far less rigid in that it is more of a "best of" what many groups were doing in that era. We are doing this in order to experience some of these almost lost techniques; my intense archives research in depth over the years makes all of this and much more possible.

In short, if it wasn't for an intense interest on my part in archives research, I know in my heart of hearts that my own ability to 12 Step and carry the AA message would be far more limited. Not less useful perhaps because this is a simple program and all, just far less dynamic. The more I learn, the more that I can share; the more that I "got", the more that I can "transmit." And besides, obsessing on this stuff is far better for me than obsessing on a drink! LOL! ;)

Archives research is a huge part of my 23 years of sobriety so far because I have found that intense and deep sharing (such as these workshops I am doing or even my regular sponsorship or even my targeted work with low bottoms, institutions, etc.) of what I learn is definitely keeping me sober. I love archives research, I am in love with it and sharing what I find in our common historical records fills me with joy.

Why WOULDN'T I do it? ;)

Sincerely,

Thom R.
thombone@gmail.com

On Mar 18, 2015 3:55 PM, "garylock7008@yahoo.ca [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi AA History Lovers Group - I have an excellent opportunity to get AA members interested in Archives and AA History. We are having an archives workshop (free) in Hamilton Ontario, Canada eh! on April 25th 2015 - being held at the Perkin Centre 1429 Main Street @10:00 am - my topic is "how to get newcomers interest in archives" - I am hoping members of this group can recall what/when/where they came to believe in AA archives - I will use the responses to formulate a 35-40 minute presentation for all who attend. You can email me direct: garylock7008@yahoo.ca
Looking forward to some interesting takes on our passion - thanking all in advance.
Gary

From Gary's iPhone 5 with rule62 in effect

| 10581|10579|2015-03-19 10:06:50|Boris Artemenko|Re: How to generate Interest in archives|

I am involved with the research of the history of AA in Brazil (in which I had an accidental share, lol). This involvement has extended into the present after 30 years of my service in some way to AA. And I would definitely be interested. But I will not be able to participate in person due to my responsibilities to portuguese-language online AA community. How can this be resolved? For me its easy enough if I can participate online in some way...
 
Boris Artemenko
São Paulo, Brazil
 
----- Original Message -----
From: garylock7008@yahoo.ca [AAHistoryLovers]
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 7:39 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] How to generate Interest in archives

 

Hi AA History Lovers Group - I have an excellent opportunity to get AA members interested in Archives and AA History. We are having an archives workshop (free) in Hamilton Ontario, Canada eh! on April 25th 2015 - being held at the Perkin Centre 1429 Main Street @10:00 am - my topic is "how to get newcomers interest in archives" - I am hoping members of this group can recall what/when/where they came to believe in AA archives - I will use the responses to formulate a 35-40 minute presentation for all who attend. You can email me direct: garylock7008@yahoo.ca
Looking forward to some interesting takes on our passion - thanking all in advance.
Gary

From Gary's iPhone 5 with rule62 in effect

| 10582|8666|2015-03-19 10:07:48|John Barton|Re: Inside the Working Manuscript of Twenty-Four Hours a Day|
We had previously dated the Akron Pamphlet as no earlier than 1942 based on the suggested reading on the last page. Abundant Living by E. Stanley Jones was only first published in 1942. BTW just finished reading "The Self You Have To Live With" by Winfred Rhoades....absolutely marvelous New Thought reading!
 

From: "Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Inside the Working Manuscript of Twenty-Four Hours a Day

 
On 9/19/2012 16:52, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> Instead, during the period when AA was growing and expanding with incredible speed, AA members were primarily reading and studying the Big Book, Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount, James Allen's As a Man Thinketh, The Upper Room, the little pamphlet called the Detroit or Washington D.C. pamphlet (also called the Tablemate or Table Leader's Guide), Ed Webster's Little Red Book, Ralph Pfau's Golden Books
> (written under the pen name of Father John Doe), eventually Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions -- AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day.
>
> The point where AA membership ceased to grow was when increasing numbers of AA groups and intergroups in very recent years began forbidding their members from reading ALL of the preceding works except for the Big Book and the 12 and 12. What you have presented in most AA groups in the US and Canada today is no longer real old time AA.

Can someone give me an approximate publication date for the Washington
Pamphlet?

I've seen two dates for the original Akron Manual, 1940 and 1942. Are
these reasonable dates?

Tommy H
Danville, Ky



| 10583|10583|2015-03-19 10:08:05|john wikelius|Alcoholic Antiquities|
All are invited to attend a display at
The Wiregrass Club, Level Plains, Alabama
Dale County Road #1
May 16, 2015
1-3 PM

Display table contents:
Alcoholics Anonymous - Awards & Recognition
Alcoholics Anonymous - Grapevine
Alcoholics Anonymous - Literature
Bill Wilson
Emanuel Movement
Father John Doe
John Barleycorn
Movies - alcoholism
Oxford Group
Prohibition - artifacts
Prohibition - Magazines
Ten Nights In A Barroom

No fee - giveaway a second edition
All welcome, bring a newcomer
John Wikelius  (334) 389-3231 justjohn1431946@yahoo.com
| 10584|10577|2015-03-19 10:13:56|Charles Knapp|Re: The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy|
Hello

FYI:  That change before AA started using it.  In the July 1950 Grapevine is a photocopy of the original newspaper clipping and it says "courage to change things I can."

Charles from Wisconsin


From: "Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy

 
On 3/18/2015 17:35, Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
"If we translated the Serenity Prayer into classical Greek and used a time machine to travel back two thousand years and carve it on the wall of a building in ancient Athens, the people who passed by would glance at it and assume it had been carved there by an ancient Stoic philosopher, one of that small band of extraordinarily courageous people called the Philosophers of the Stoa, that is, the Philosophers of the Painted Porch: 'Zeus, grant me the apatheia to accept ta ouk eph' hêmin, the andreia to change ta eph' hêmin, and the sophia to know the difference.'"

Elisabeth Sifton, Reinhold Niebuhr's daughter, says in her book "The Serenity Prayer" that there is an error in the prayer as we now hear it in A.A. meetings.  Somehow, the phrase "Change the things we should" in the original has become "Change the things we can."  This says we should change anything we can, regardless of the moral or spiritual implications.

Makes sense to me.

Tommy H
Danville, Ky



| 10585|8666|2015-03-19 10:33:00|tomper87|Re: Inside the Working Manuscript of Twenty-Four Hours a Day|
According to:
http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/EARLY%20%20PAMPHLETS/DC%20Pamphlet.htm

it was Sept. 1944 for the Washington pamphlet.

 

| 10586|10577|2015-03-19 18:04:27|JohnGaltLives|Re: The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy|
For some years I have had another version in my possession.  It appears on a small framed motto that I bought at an estate sale in Northern Minnesota:

"Almighty father...
Give us strength to accept,
With serenity, the things that
cannot be changed....Give us
courage to change the things that
can and should be changed
....and give us wisdom to
distinguish one from the other"

---Attributed To Henry Sloane Coffin

I have never encountered this version of the text anywhere else and thought I would throw it out there just for entertainment purposes.  I presume the attribution is wrong.  The line breaks are as they appear on the print.  It certainly does not resemble Reinhold Neihbur's  version other than the general sentiment.
| 10587|10587|2015-03-19 18:04:48|jscinca@aol.com|grapevine April 1975|
Can anyone verify who wrote this piece tilted Why We Were Chosen?...purportedly from the Grapevine, April 1975.

I have a copy of this and no author is provided..and I am not certain if it is correct or complete.. thanks



God in His wisdom selected this group of men and women to be the purveyors of His goodness. In selecting them, thorough whom to bring about this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the mighty, the famous, or the brilliant; He went to the humble, so called weakling of the world. 

Well might He have said to us:

"Unto your weak and feeble hands, I have entrusted a power beyond estimate. To you has been given that which has been denied the most learned of your fellows. Not to scientists or statesmen, not to wives or mothers, not even too My priests or ministers, have I given this gift of healing other alcoholics which I entrust you.

"It must be used unselfishly; it carries with it grave responsibility. No day can be too long; no demands upon your time can be too urgent; no case be too pitiful; no task too hard; no restricted its application to  no race, no creed, and no denomination. Personal criticism you must expect; lack of appreciation will be common; ridicule will be your lot; your motives will be misjudged. You must be prepared for adversity, for what men call adversity is the ladder you must use to ascend the rungs toward spiritual perfection , and, remember -- in the exercise of this power, I shall not exact of you beyond your capabilities.

" You are not selected because of your exceptional talents, and be careful, always, if success attends your efforts, not to ascribe to personal superiority that to which you can lay claim only by virtue of My gift. If I had wanted learned men to accomplish this mission, the power would have been entrusted to the physician and the scientist. If I had wanted eloquent men, there would have been many anxious for the assignment, for talk is the easiest used of all talents with which I have endowed mankind. If I had wanted scholarly men, the world is filled with better qualified men than you, who would be available. You were selected because you have been the outcast of the world and your long experience as drunkards has make or should make you humbly alert to the cries of distress that come from the lonely hearts of alcoholics everywhere.

Keep in mind the admission you made on the day of your profession in A.A.; namely that you are powerless and that it was only with your willingness to turn your life and will unto My keeping that relief came to you.


Scott Chambers
El Paso TX


 
| 10588|10579|2015-03-19 18:05:43|Richard H|Re: How to generate Interest in archives|
Gary,

I became interested in AA History in the living room of my sponsor, Charlie. The doors to his home were always open to AA's....as they are to this day. I loved listening to the stories of events, places, divine intervention and the people helping one another. I am now currently in my 14th year as the Area 73 (West Virginia) Archivist. I encourage newcomers and long timers alike to look into our Archives and History with gratitude to the paths cleared by those who came before. I am basically a storyteller that focuses on bringing our history and passion to life and that has resonated with members in my "talks". Keeping it fun, accessible to all and simple has worked for me. I have always viewed Alcoholics Anonymous History as a living...growing thing.

Wishing you every success on your upcoming workshop....I would love to hear how it turns out.

ps...Area 73...Charleston, WV in particular.....is the Home of Rule 62! 

Much Love 2 U,
Richard 
 

From: "garylock7008@yahoo.ca [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 6:39 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] How to generate Interest in archives

 
Hi AA History Lovers Group - I have an excellent opportunity to get AA members interested in Archives and AA History. We are having an archives workshop (free) in Hamilton Ontario, Canada eh! on April 25th 2015 - being held at the Perkin Centre 1429 Main Street @10:00 am - my topic is "how to get newcomers interest in archives" - I am hoping members of this group can recall what/when/where they came to believe in AA archives - I will use the responses to formulate a 35-40 minute presentation for all who attend. You can email me direct: garylock7008@yahoo.ca
Looking forward to some interesting takes on our passion - thanking all in advance.
Gary

From Gary's iPhone 5 with rule62 in effect


| 10589|10583|2015-03-19 21:14:42|justjohn1431946|Alcoholic Antiquities|

May 21, 2015 I will host a display of items most embers have never seen or even heard about.  Here are the different table subjects:


Alcoholics Anonymous Awards & recognitions

Alcoholics Anonymous - Grapevines

Alcoholics Anonymous - Literature

Bill Wilson

Emanuel Movement

Father John Doe

John Barleycorn

Movies - alcoholism

Oxford Group

Prohibition - artifacts

Prohibition - Magazines

Ten Nights in a Barroom


display will be at   The Wiregrass Club, Level Plains, Alabama

Dale County Road #1

1-3 PM

Drawing for a second edition


Be amazed and bring a newcomer.


John Wikelius  (334)-389-3231  justjohn1431946@yahoo.com

| 10590|10577|2015-03-20 12:13:23|John Barton|Re: The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy|
Just for the record...Reinhold Neihbur's Version is as follows:

"God give us grace to accept with serenity the things which cannot be changed courage to change the things that should be changed and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.........."

Neihbur's daughter Elisabeth and I discussed at length the prayer and it's many meanings. But I love the implication that not every thing that can be changed - should be changed. The version we say in AA is quite "egoic" as compared to the original which is, in my opinion, quite beautiful and has a much deeper spiritual meaning then the short version. You see, as written it is a prayer for grace..

God Bless,

John B
 

From: "johngaltredux@msn.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy

 
For some years I have had another version in my possession.  It appears on a small framed motto that I bought at an estate sale in Northern Minnesota:

"Almighty father...
Give us strength to accept,
With serenity, the things that
cannot be changed....Give us
courage to change the things that
can and should be changed
....and give us wisdom to
distinguish one from the other"

---Attributed To Henry Sloane Coffin

I have never encountered this version of the text anywhere else and thought I would throw it out there just for entertainment purposes.  I presume the attribution is wrong.  The line breaks are as they appear on the print.  It certainly does not resemble Reinhold Neihbur's  version other than the general sentiment.


| 10591|10577|2015-03-20 12:14:08|hdmozart|Re: The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy|
I am no expert, but this article by Fred Shapiro, editor of “The Yale Book of Quotations”, seems well researched and documented - 

COMMENTARY: How I discovered I was wrong about the origin of the Serenity Prayer - Religion News Service

 

As previously mentioned, there have been earlier, very similar versions - Niebuhr faced accusations that he was not the prayer’s author. A magazine article in 1950 quoted him as saying: “Of course, it may have been spooking around for years, even centuries, but I don’t think so. I honestly do believe that I wrote it myself.”

Serenity Prayer Skeptic Now Credits Niebuhr

 




| 10592|10587|2015-03-20 12:14:52|cpknapp|Re: grapevine April 1975|

Try Google....hundreds of answers.

 

Charles from Wisconsin 

 

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone.

------ Original Message ------
From : jscinca@aol.com [AAHistoryLovers]
Subject : [AAHistoryLovers] grapevine April 1975

 

Can anyone verify who wrote this piece tilted Why We Were Chosen?...purportedly from the Grapevine, April 1975.


I have a copy of this and no author is provided..and I am not certain if it is correct or complete.. thanks



God in His wisdom selected this group of men and women to be the purveyors of His goodness. In selecting them, thorough whom to bring about this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the mighty, the famous, or the brilliant; He went to the humble, so called weakling of the world. 

Well might He have said to us:

| 10593|10587|2015-03-20 12:15:05|Craig Keith|Re: grapevine April 1975|
It is my understanding that the "Why We Were Chosen" quote is an excerpt from an Address by Judge John T. at the 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group on October 5, 1943 .
Best regards,
Craig Keith
Wimberley, TX

On 3/19/2015 1:38 PM, jscinca@aol.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
 

Can anyone verify who wrote this piece tilted Why We Were Chosen?...purportedly from the Grapevine, April 1975.


I have a copy of this and no author is provided..and I am not certain if it is correct or complete.. thanks



God in His wisdom selected this group of men and women to be the purveyors of His goodness. In selecting them, thorough whom to bring about this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the mighty, the famous, or the brilliant; He went to the humble, so called weakling of the world. 

Well might He have said to us:

"Unto your weak and feeble hands, I have entrusted a power beyond estimate. To you has been given that which has been denied the most learned of your fellows. Not to scientists or statesmen, not to wives or mothers, not even too My priests or ministers, have I given this gift of healing other alcoholics which I entrust you.

"It must be used unselfishly; it carries with it grave responsibility. No day can be too long; no demands upon your time can be too urgent; no case be too pitiful; no task too hard; no restricted its application to  no race, no creed, and no denomination. Personal criticism you must expect; lack of appreciation will be common; ridicule will be your lot; your motives will be misjudged. You must be prepared for adversity, for what men call adversity is the ladder you must use to ascend the rungs toward spiritual perfection , and, remember -- in the exercise of this power, I shall not exact of you beyond your capabilities.

" You are not selected because of your exceptional talents, and be careful, always, if success attends your efforts, not to ascribe to personal superiority that to which you can lay claim only by virtue of My gift. If I had wanted learned men to accomplish this mission, the power would have been entrusted to the physician and the scientist. If I had wanted eloquent men, there would have been many anxious for the assignment, for talk is the easiest used of all talents with which I have endowed mankind. If I had wanted scholarly men, the world is filled with better qualified men than you, who would be available. You were selected because you have been the outcast of the world and your long experience as drunkards has make or should make you humbly alert to the cries of distress that come from the lonely hearts of alcoholics everywhere.

Keep in mind the admission you made on the day of your profession in A.A.; namely that you are powerless and that it was only with your willingness to turn your life and will unto My keeping that relief came to you.


Scott Chambers
El Paso TX


 

| 10594|10579|2015-03-20 12:16:14|bobhickey674|Re: How to generate Interest in archives|
Gary, as a local Archivist I would be interested in your presentation. We started the Intergroup Archives 1/14 and it has been slow getting people to attend the meetings and to help out. we have a core group of 4 people. we cover four districts and only one of them has a district archivist. so any feedback would help. Thanks Bob Hickey
| 10595|10587|2015-03-20 12:17:09|hdmozart|Re: grapevine April 1975|
Address by Judge John T., 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group October 5, 1943

Why We Were Chosen, Address by Judge John T., 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group October 5, 1943

 



FWIW, I don't think there is one statement about WHY we were chosen - I think the Title should have been "Who Was Chosen" -
| 10596|10583|2015-03-20 12:18:04|bobhickey674|Re: Alcoholic Antiquities|
John, do you have pictures of the display items? they would be interesting to talk about at our Archives Committee meeting. Thanks Bob Hickey
| 10597|10597|2015-03-20 16:39:25|AAHistoryLovers|Jackie B's new play in Atlanta July 1-3, 2015|
JACKIE B., OUR EXPERIENCE HAS TAUGHT US

At the Sedona Mago AA History Symposium last month, Peter M. (San Francisco) announced that Jackie B.'s new play, "Our Experience Has Taught Us," will be performed in Atlanta, Georgia on July 1-3 at the Rialto Center for the Arts while the 2015 AA International is going on.

"With a sweeping cast of characters that includes Bill and Lois W., Dr. Bob and Anne S., Clarence S., Marty Mann, Cleveland Indian's catcher Rollie Hemsley and the starlet Lillian Roth, 'Our Experience Has Taught Us' dramatizes the experiences of the early A.A. groups in Ohio, New York and California. Powerful and entertaining, this play brings to life the often comical and sometimes tragic experiences that led to the adoption of the Twelve Traditions. 'Our Experience Has Taught Us' is an unforgettable journey into our group histories, celebrating the precious unity of Alcoholics Anonymous." -- from the flyer for the performance

"Jackie B. is one of the best A.A. historians of the new generation and a master storyteller. Her play had the people in the audience laughing, crying, standing on their feet and applauding, and being totally pulled into the vivid tales which she spun." -- from Glenn Chesnut's foreword to the printed edition of the play

For more information see:



http://www.recoveryplaysofjackieb.org/shows/




| 10598|10583|2015-03-20 16:54:06|john wikelius|Re: Alcoholic Antiquities|
i will have.  right nnow the pictures are to get displays set.  send address


From: "bobhickey674@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 1:17 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Alcoholic Antiquities

 
John, do you have pictures of the display items? they would be interesting to talk about at our Archives Committee meeting. Thanks Bob Hickey


| 10599|10597|2015-03-21 11:04:21|Thom Bone|Re: Jackie B's new play in Atlanta July 1-3, 2015|
I would only hope that these get recorded and are available on DVD, etc.

I looked around and couldn't find any info about that. Does anyone know anything please? I may just work them in to some of my workshops. They might be a fun segue into certain things.

Of course I'd rather see them live but that may not be possible.

Thom R.

On 20 March 2015 at 16:34, AAHistoryLovers glennccc@sbcglobal.net [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

JACKIE B., OUR EXPERIENCE HAS TAUGHT US

At the Sedona Mago AA History Symposium last month, Peter M. (San Francisco) announced that Jackie B.'s new play, "Our Experience Has Taught Us," will be performed in Atlanta, Georgia on July 1-3 at the Rialto Center for the Arts while the 2015 AA International is going on.

"With a sweeping cast of characters that includes Bill and Lois W., Dr. Bob and Anne S., Clarence S., Marty Mann, Cleveland Indian's catcher Rollie Hemsley and the starlet Lillian Roth, 'Our Experience Has Taught Us' dramatizes the experiences of the early A.A. groups in Ohio, New York and California. Powerful and entertaining, this play brings to life the often comical and sometimes tragic experiences that led to the adoption of the Twelve Traditions. 'Our Experience Has Taught Us' is an unforgettable journey into our group histories, celebrating the precious unity of Alcoholics Anonymous." -- from the flyer for the performance

"Jackie B. is one of the best A.A. historians of the new generation and a master storyteller. Her play had the people in the audience laughing, crying, standing on their feet and applauding, and being totally pulled into the vivid tales which she spun." -- from Glenn Chesnut's foreword to the printed edition of the play

For more information see:



http://www.recoveryplaysofjackieb.org/shows/

 
 
image
 
 
 
 
 
The Recovery Plays of Jackie B.
  The Recovery Plays of Jackie B. Jackie Bendzinski, San Francisco, The Recovery Plays of Jackie B., "In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous," "Our Exp...
Preview by Yahoo
 

 
 
image
 
 
 
 
 
The Recovery Plays of Jackie B
don't miss Our Experience Has Taught Us in atlanta!
Preview by Yahoo
 





--
---Thom Bone
| 10600|10597|2015-03-21 12:49:51|Barry Murtaugh|Re: Jackie B's new play in Atlanta July 1-3, 2015|
She also does workshops.
I'll send contact info.
Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 21, 2015, at 5:05 AM, Thom Bone thombone@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I would only hope that these get recorded and are available on DVD, etc.

I looked around and couldn't find any info about that. Does anyone know anything please? I may just work them in to some of my workshops. They might be a fun segue into certain things.

Of course I'd rather see them live but that may not be possible.

Thom R.

On 20 March 2015 at 16:34, AAHistoryLovers glennccc@sbcglobal.net [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

JACKIE B., OUR EXPERIENCE HAS TAUGHT US

At the Sedona Mago AA History Symposium last month, Peter M. (San Francisco) announced that Jackie B.'s new play, "Our Experience Has Taught Us," will be performed in Atlanta, Georgia on July 1-3 at the Rialto Center for the Arts while the 2015 AA International is going on.

"With a sweeping cast of characters that includes Bill and Lois W., Dr. Bob and Anne S., Clarence S., Marty Mann, Cleveland Indian's catcher Rollie Hemsley and the starlet Lillian Roth, 'Our Experience Has Taught Us' dramatizes the experiences of the early A.A. groups in Ohio, New York and California. Powerful and entertaining, this play brings to life the often comical and sometimes tragic experiences that led to the adoption of the Twelve Traditions. 'Our Experience Has Taught Us' is an unforgettable journey into our group histories, celebrating the precious unity of Alcoholics Anonymous." -- from the flyer for the performance

"Jackie B. is one of the best A.A. historians of the new generation and a master storyteller. Her play had the people in the audience laughing, crying, standing on their feet and applauding, and being totally pulled into the vivid tales which she spun." -- from Glenn Chesnut's foreword to the printed edition of the play

For more information see:



http://www.recoveryplaysofjackieb.org/shows/

 
 
image
 
 
 
 
 
The Recovery Plays of Jackie B.
  The Recovery Plays of Jackie B. Jackie Bendzinski, San Francisco, The Recovery Plays of Jackie B., "In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous," "Our Exp...
Preview by Yahoo
 

 
 
image
 
 
 
 
 
The Recovery Plays of Jackie B
don't miss Our Experience Has Taught Us in atlanta!
Preview by Yahoo
 





--
---Thom Bone

| 10601|10601|2015-03-22 10:50:42|club4492002|Number of AA members since 1935?|
I know there are currently about 2 million members that AAWS knows about. Anyone ever come up with a ballpark figure of those who have gotten sober for good since 1935?


| 10602|10577|2015-03-22 14:09:12|corafinch|Re: The Serenity Prayer and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy|
The people who were using prayers with similar phrases through the years seem to have been connected with Reinhold Niebuhr. Harry Emerson Fosdick wrote the hymn "God of Grace and God of Glory," with its refrain "Grant us wisdom, grant us courage/ For the facing of this hour." He was an associate of Niebuhr's at Union and a family friend. William Sloane Coffin was Fosdick's successor at Riverside Church. Even Mildred Pinkerton, who quoted a version beginning with "God grant us courage to change . . ." in 1936, had been a YMCA secretary in Detroit earlier in her career. Niebuhr was a pastor in Detroit during the same period, and spoke frequently at YMCA-sponsored events.

There are also early writings of Niebuhr that resemble the prayer. His book "Does Civilization Need Religion: A Study in the Social Resources and Limitations of Religion in Modern Life" includes a chapter "Transcending and Transforming the World" about the two different functions of religion and why we often focus on one when the situation calls for the other. It could pass as a commentary of the prayer--except that the final version of the prayer did not yet exist when he wrote it.

As the Harry Emerson Fosdick hymn implies, often the emphasis was more on courage than serenity, if only because it has always been so easy for religious people to take the easy way out when difficult action needs to be taken. The transcendent function of religion (serenity) was important but maybe not discussed as often in the days of such deadly external threats. I see no reason to doubt that the various versions go back in some way to Reinhold Niebuhr.


---In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

For some years I have had another version in my possession.  It appears on a small framed motto that I bought at an estate sale in Northern Minnesota:

"Almighty father...
Give us strength to accept,
With serenity, the things that
cannot be changed....Give us
courage to change the things that
can and should be changed
....and give us wisdom to
distinguish one from the other"

---Attributed To Henry Sloane Coffin

I have never encountered this version of the text anywhere else and thought I would throw it out there just for entertainment purposes.  I presume the attribution is wrong.  The line breaks are as they appear on the print.  It certainly does not resemble Reinhold Neihbur's  version other than the general sentiment.
| 10603|10603|2015-03-26 19:26:46|aoday7|Twenty Four Hour Club NYC|

Hello, I'm looking for anyone who has information about an AA club that was active in New York City  (Madison Ave at 26th Street) in the 1950s called the Twenty Four Hour Club. The only reference I can find about it is here:


http://www.barefootsworld.net/aathe24hourclub.html

"Ten minutes later, a taxi pulled up to the side entrance of the old Madison Square Hotel. Lionel and the A.A. man got out and entered the hotel, by-passing a bar, off the foyer, that was filled with glum-looking drinkers. They climbed a short flight of stairs and walked into a little hole-in-the-wall known as the Twenty-Four-Hour Club, in the midst of one of its Saturday night shindigs."

I have letters and information that my grandfather worked at or was involved in some way with this place and would love to find out more about it. 


| 10604|10603|2015-03-27 10:48:52|Cindy Miller|Re: Twenty Four Hour Club NYC|
...the history and lore of  Clubhouses in the US would make a great subject! I am doing research  on a clubhouse in Philly-4021 Clubhouse ( founded 1946) and it's not easy...so many records were deemed "unimportant" and disposed of...

I have heard of the 24-Hour Club...Good Luck!


Cindy Miller




On Mar 26, 2015, at 6:10 PM, aoday7@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:

 

Hello, I'm looking for anyone who has information about an AA club that was active in New York City  (Madison Ave at 26th Street) in the 1950s called the Twenty Four Hour Club. The only reference I can find about it is here:



"Ten minutes later, a taxi pulled up to the side entrance of the old Madison Square Hotel. Lionel and the A.A. man got out and entered the hotel, by-passing a bar, off the foyer, that was filled with glum-looking drinkers. They climbed a short flight of stairs and walked into a little hole-in-the-wall known as the Twenty-Four-Hour Club, in the midst of one of its Saturday night shindigs."


I have letters and information that my grandfather worked at or was involved in some way with this place and would love to find out more about it. 




| 10605|10603|2015-03-30 12:09:07|Cindy Miller|Re: Twenty Four Hour Club NYC|
...so i was researching old Grapevines and the September 1955 issue has a 3-page article (with photos) on the 24-Hour Club. (p. 31) 

As a reaction to all the "hassles" that had occured at earlier NYC clubhouses, a decision was made not to mix recovery and fellowshipping-thus, there was no 12-Step work done, no AA meetings--no official connection to AA at all. Also no card-playing and no gambling. Dues were $3/mo. It featured full counter service (meals)

It was purely a safe place of respite. the article highlighted the fact that many famous NY entertainers, singers, musicians came and performed....



Cindy Miller
Philadelphia




On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Cindy Miller cm53@earthlink.net [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:

 

...the history and lore of  Clubhouses in the US would make a great subject! I am doing research  on a clubhouse in Philly-4021 Clubhouse ( founded 1946) and it's not easy...so many records were deemed "unimportant" and disposed of...


I have heard of the 24-Hour Club...Good Luck!


Cindy Miller




On Mar 26, 2015, at 6:10 PM, aoday7@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:

 

Hello, I'm looking for anyone who has information about an AA club that was active in New York City  (Madison Ave at 26th Street) in the 1950s called the Twenty Four Hour Club. The only reference I can find about it is here:



"Ten minutes later, a taxi pulled up to the side entrance of the old Madison Square Hotel. Lionel and the A.A. man got out and entered the hotel, by-passing a bar, off the foyer, that was filled with glum-looking drinkers. They climbed a short flight of stairs and walked into a little hole-in-the-wall known as the Twenty-Four-Hour Club, in the midst of one of its Saturday night shindigs."


I have letters and information that my grandfather worked at or was involved in some way with this place and would love to find out more about it. 






| 10606|10603|2015-03-31 11:21:29|aoday7|Re: Twenty Four Hour Club NYC|
Interestingly I found an old AA meeting book that shows that 24 Hour Club did host meetings...wonder why the discrepancy...

http://www.aaseny.org/archives/meetinglist/11_15_1958_nyi.pdf

| 10607|10607|2015-04-03 08:57:07|Tom Hickcox|Preamble|
The Preamble is copyrighted by the A.A. Grapevine.


Has it attained "Conference Approved" status or is it a "Meeting Aid"?


Tommy H
| 10608|10608|2015-04-03 08:57:10|russhillard|"Unto Thine Ownself be True"|

Am interested in learning when the motto "Unto Thine Ownself be True" became part of the design of AA birthday medallions. 


Russ H

russhillard@yahoo.com

| 10609|10601|2015-04-03 08:57:24|kevinharveybarratt|Re: Number of AA members since 1935?|
Check out the paper: Has A.A. Lost It's Edge, 
By:
 Arthur S, Arlington, TX,
Tom E, Wappingers Falls, NY
Glenn C, South Bend, IN T

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

| 10610|10610|2015-04-03 08:57:50|wrdjock|Bernard Smith's Law Firm|

I've been doing some research on Bernard Smith. Michelle Mirza, the AA Archivist, let me know that his law firm at the time he became a Trustee was Smith & Steibel.  I determined that Steibel was actually Leonard H. Steibel. The firm maintained offices at 460 Park Avenue New York, NY on the 22nd floor.


Later, Michael Alexander joined the firm and on January 13, 1975 the firm was renamed to Smith, Steibel, Alexander and Saskor, P.C. I haven't found out who Saskor was yet.  The designation "P.C." stands for "Professional Corporation" and is a special legal status applied to corporations of licensed professionals like doctors, lawyers and public accountants. In, 1998, the firm merged with Holland & Knight which was the 12th largest law firm in the US at the time.


I'm looking for additional information on both Bernard Smith and Michael Alexander so any information that you can provide woud be helpful.


Jeff Bernknopf

wrdjock@gmail.com


| 10611|10608|2015-04-04 12:25:54|cugjp1|Re: "Unto Thine Ownself be True"|
Interesting question. If I recall correctly  I read this quote from Shakespeare in the book "What is the Oxford Group?"(from 1933), in the chapter on absolute honesty. Maybe a hold over from Oxford group? I am just now reading many books on the Oxford group, if I run across another reference I will mention. 

George P

District #6 Illinois Archivist


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "russhillard@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date:04/01/2015 11:47 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Unto Thine Ownself be True"

 

Am interested in learning when the motto "Unto Thine Ownself be True" became part of the design of AA birthday medallions. 


Russ H

russhillard@yahoo.com

| 10612|10608|2015-04-04 12:26:35|Tom Hickcox|Re: "Unto Thine Ownself be True"|
On 4/1/2015 12:47, russhillard@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:

Am interested in learning when the motto "Unto Thine Ownself be True" became part of the design of AA birthday medallions. 


I made this note  11/25/12

"Arizona Jack H. tells me he talked with the person who designed the chip recently, a Robt. Wilson.

"He designed the chip ~1970 and put the quote on it because it sounded good/right.  No connection to A.A. or his recovery."

I would note my chips have said "To" not "Unto".

Tommy H

| 10613|10607|2015-04-04 12:27:01|Arthur|Re: Preamble|

Hey Tommy

 

The AA Preable has been an item of business at 6 General Service Conferences - it is most definitely Conference-approved - never heard of the term “Meeting Aid” - are you thinking of the term “Service Piece”?

 

The Preamble first appeared in the June 1947 Grapevine. Written by Tom Y, the Grapevine’s first editor (and Class B Trustee in 1949). It was based on the Foreword to the First edition Big Book. Today, it is a common reading at the beginning of many AA meetings. That is how, over time, it came to be called the “AA Preamble.”

 

Conference advisory actions:

 

1958 - approved removing the word “honest” from the term “honest desire to stop drinking” in the AA Preamble. AA legend sometimes erroneously states that the word “honest” was removed from Tradition Three based on the very poor wording of the advisory action. Neither the long nor the short form of Tradition Three ever contained the word “honest.” The term “honest desire to stop drinking” is from the Foreword to the First Edition Big Book. The advisory action also led to changing the wording of the Preamble from “AA has no dues or fees” to “There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions.” (Best of the Grapevine Volume 1, 274-275).

 

1966 - failed advisory action - the wording of "there are no dues or fees for AA membership" was left unchanged in the AA Preamble.

 

1967 - failed advisory action - rejected a proposal to reverse AA Preamble clauses to read "We are self-supporting through our own contributions; there are no dues or fees for AA membership."

 

1971 - some consideration be given to reversing the clauses in the preamble to read as follows “We are self-supporting through our own contributions; there are no dues or fees for AA membership.”

 

1987 - failed advisory action - no changes or additions be made to the AA Preamble.

 

1992 - the Preamble, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions be added to all CPC pamphlets when reprinted, to provide consistent and uniform information.

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:08 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Preamble

 

 

The Preamble is copyrighted by the A.A. Grapevine.

Has it attained "Conference Approved" status or is it a "Meeting Aid"?

Tommy H

| 10614|10607|2015-04-04 12:27:45|Charles Knapp|Re: Preamble|
Hello

Here is some information that might be helpful. I never really could find where it was conference approved but my  resources are limited.  Might be a question for the GSO Archives.

From: ADVISORY ACTIONS OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 1951 - 2001
 
Advisory Actions relevant to the
CONFERENCE LITERATURE COMMITTEE
1958 - The Conference recognize the original use of the word "honest" before "desire to stop drinking" and its deletion from the Traditions as part of the evolution of the A.A. movement. Any change to be left to the discretion of A.A. Publishing, Inc.
 
Advisory Actions relevant to the
CONFERENCE LITERATURE COMMITTEE
1961 - The Committee considered the recommendation transmitted by two committeemen in South Florida to delete the words: "There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership" from the A.A. "preamble." After voicing its opinion that these words are of vital importance to the newcomer and in describing the Fellowship to the non-alcoholic, the Committee referred the recommendation to the Policy Committee.
 
Advisory Actions relevant to the
CONFERENCE COMMITTEE ON CONFERENCE POLICY AND ADMISSIONS
1961-The Conference Literature Committee's recommendation that the sentence, "There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership" be retained in the description of A.A. in Conference-approved literature be approved.
 
Advisory Actions relevant to the
CONFERENCE GRAPEVINE COMMITTEE
1966 - The sentence "There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership" be retained in the Preamble. (Floor action)
 
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE
1967 - Some consideration be given to reversing the clauses in the preamble to read as follows: "We are self-supporting through our own contributions; there are no dues or fees for A.A. membership."
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
1958 Final Conference Report - Ask It Basket  Questions and Answers Section page 20
 
Question #9. In the third Tradition, why is the word "honest” omitted from the phrase "honest desire to stop drinking"?
 
Discussion of this topic: centered on the fact that as A.A. has matured, it: has been increasingly recognized that it is nearly impossible to determine what constitutes an "honest'" desire to stop drinking, as opposed to other forms in which the desire might be expressed. It was also noted char: some who may be interested in the program might be confused by the phrase 'honest desire.'' Thus, as part of the evolution of A.A., the descriptive adjective has been dropped.
 
Question #10. Why not change the wording of the so-called "Grapevine description" of the movement so that this conforms with the third Tradition in omitting the word "honest"?
 
This is being done in new editions of A.A. literature. Both Question 9 and Question 10 were referred to the Literature Committee for consideration.
 
 
1958 Final Conference Report -REPORT OF CONFERENCE LITERATURE COMMITTEE page 24
 
Item 4. Recognized the original use of the word "honest" before "desire to stop drinking" and its deletion from the Traditions as part of the evolution of the A.A. movement. Any change to be left to the discretion of A.A. Publishing, Inc.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: Markings Vol 28 No 2 Summer 2008:
 
The Preamble first appeared in the Grapevine in June 1947, and was written by Tom Y., the Grapevine editor at that time. The aim was to offer a concise definition of A.A. Shortly thereafter, the Preamble began appearing in each monthly issue of the Grapevine, and later on in much of our A.A. Conference-approved literature.
 
It came to be called the preamble because it is so often read at the opening of A.A. meetings.
 
The original version of the Preamble contained the wording, “an honest desire to stop drinking.” However, since the adoption of the short form of the Traditions in 1950, the Third Tradition has always read, “The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking “and this form was used by Bill in writing the book, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.
 
In 1958 the expression “honest desire” was discussed at great length at the General Service Conference. It was felt that it was impossible to determine what constitutes an “honest” desire to stop drinking, thus the word was dropped. The version of the Preamble without the word “honest” first appeared in the September 1958 issue of the Grapevine

Hope This Helps

Charles from Wisconsin


From: "Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:08 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Preamble

 
The Preamble is copyrighted by the A.A. Grapevine.

Has it attained "Conference Approved" status or is it a "Meeting Aid"?

Tommy H


| 10615|10608|2015-04-04 12:28:05|Arthur|Re: "Unto Thine Ownself be True"|

I believe it is “to thine own self …” not “unto thine ownself …” and is from Shakespeare’s Hamlet.

 

Its origin on medallions is likely obscure - but someone somewhere will claim to be first.

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 11:48 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Unto Thine Ownself be True"

Am interested in learning when the motto "Unto Thine Ownself be True" became part of the design of AA birthday medallions. 

Russ H

russhillard@yahoo.com,_.___

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| 10616|10607|2015-04-04 18:32:52|Honest03060|Re: Preamble|
Since it appears in the forward to the first edition to the Big Book. I would not consider Tom Y as author. That smacks of plaugerism. 
I would only give credit to Grapevine for presenting it for trademark as adapted from the original text in the forward to the first edition.  
MHO
SWJohn
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Arthur arthur.s@live.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hey Tommy

 

The AA Preable has been an item of business at 6 General Service Conferences - it is most definitely Conference-approved - never heard of the term “Meeting Aid” - are you thinking of the term “Service Piece”?

 

The Preamble first appeared in the June 1947 Grapevine. Written by Tom Y, the Grapevine’s first editor (and Class B Trustee in 1949). It was based on the Foreword to the First edition Big Book. Today, it is a common reading at the beginning of many AA meetings. That is how, over time, it came to be called the “AA Preamble.”

 

Conference advisory actions:

 

1958 - approved removing the word “honest” from the term “honest desire to stop drinking” in the AA Preamble. AA legend sometimes erroneously states that the word “honest” was removed from Tradition Three based on the very poor wording of the advisory action. Neither the long nor the short form of Tradition Three ever contained the word “honest.” The term “honest desire to stop drinking” is from the Foreword to the First Edition Big Book. The advisory action also led to changing the wording of the Preamble from “AA has no dues or fees” to “There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions.” (Best of the Grapevine Volume 1, 274-275).

 

1966 - failed advisory action - the wording of "there are no dues or fees for AA membership" was left unchanged in the AA Preamble.

 

1967 - failed advisory action - rejected a proposal to reverse AA Preamble clauses to read "We are self-supporting through our own contributions; there are no dues or fees for AA membership."

 

1971 - some consideration be given to reversing the clauses in the preamble to read as follows “We are self-supporting through our own contributions; there are no dues or fees for AA membership.”

 

1987 - failed advisory action - no changes or additions be made to the AA Preamble.

 

1992 - the Preamble, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions be added to all CPC pamphlets when reprinted, to provide consistent and uniform information.

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:08 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Preamble

 

 

The Preamble is copyrighted by the A.A. Grapevine.

Has it attained "Conference Approved" status or is it a "Meeting Aid"?

Tommy H

| 10617|10603|2015-04-04 18:33:34|Thomas B.|Re: Twenty Four Hour Club NYC|
I received the gift of sobriety in October of 1972. My first home group was the Midnight Meeting that met six nights a week at the 24-Hour Club then located on the second floor of 156 W. 23rd Street, halfway between 3rd and Lexington Avenues on the south side of the street. 

Sometime in '73 or '74, the Midnight Meeting moved to the basement of Moravian Church on Lexington Avenue where it met for the next several years. I don't know what happened to the 24-Hour Club after we left.

Thomas Brinson
Seaside, Oregon



On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:21 AM, "aoday7@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" wrote:


 
Interestingly I found an old AA meeting book that shows that 24 Hour Club did host meetings...wonder why the discrepancy...




| 10618|10607|2015-04-05 12:16:30|Jeff Bruce|Re: Preamble|

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Honest03060 honest03060@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Since it appears in the forward to the first edition to the Big Book. I would not consider Tom Y as author. That smacks of plaugerism. 
I would only give credit to Grapevine for presenting it for trademark as adapted from the original text in the forward to the first edition.  
MHO
SWJohn
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Arthur arthur.s@live.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hey Tommy

 

The AA Preable has been an item of business at 6 General Service Conferences - it is most definitely Conference-approved - never heard of the term “Meeting Aid” - are you thinking of the term “Service Piece”?

 

The Preamble first appeared in the June 1947 Grapevine. Written by Tom Y, the Grapevine’s first editor (and Class B Trustee in 1949). It was based on the Foreword to the First edition Big Book. Today, it is a common reading at the beginning of many AA meetings. That is how, over time, it came to be called the “AA Preamble.”

 

Conference advisory actions:

 

1958 - approved removing the word “honest” from the term “honest desire to stop drinking” in the AA Preamble. AA legend sometimes erroneously states that the word “honest” was removed from Tradition Three based on the very poor wording of the advisory action. Neither the long nor the short form of Tradition Three ever contained the word “honest.” The term “honest desire to stop drinking” is from the Foreword to the First Edition Big Book. The advisory action also led to changing the wording of the Preamble from “AA has no dues or fees” to “There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions.” (Best of the Grapevine Volume 1, 274-275).

 

1966 - failed advisory action - the wording of "there are no dues or fees for AA membership" was left unchanged in the AA Preamble.

 

1967 - failed advisory action - rejected a proposal to reverse AA Preamble clauses to read "We are self-supporting through our own contributions; there are no dues or fees for AA membership."

 

1971 - some consideration be given to reversing the clauses in the preamble to read as follows “We are self-supporting through our own contributions; there are no dues or fees for AA membership.”

 

1987 - failed advisory action - no changes or additions be made to the AA Preamble.

 

1992 - the Preamble, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions be added to all CPC pamphlets when reprinted, to provide consistent and uniform information.

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:08 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Preamble

 

 

The Preamble is copyrighted by the A.A. Grapevine.

Has it attained "Conference Approved" status or is it a "Meeting Aid"?

Tommy H




--
 Jeff
(323) 463-6603
| 10619|10619|2015-04-08 17:41:06|AAHistoryLovers|April 22 - Ernie Kurtz Memorial Service|
TWO WEEKS FROM NOW  -  KURTZ MEMORIAL SERVICE

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 1:00 pm, a memorial service for Ernie Kurtz will be held at Dawn Farm in Ypsilanti, Michigan: 6633 Stony Creek Road, Ypsilanti, Michigan 48197. The farm's telephone number is (734) 485-8725.


(Dawn Farm is the local addiction treatment program that Ernie long supported. For more about its program, see http://www.dawnfarm.org/programs/residential-treatment/ )

Bill White says that some people who will not be able to travel the long distance to attend this service are instead going to provide a short remembrance or tribute to Ernie that could be shared with Ernie’s family, read at the service, or posted later.

Such recollections and tributes can be emailed to Ernie’s wife, Linda Kurtz, at  lkurtz@emich.edu (lkurtz at emich.edu).

Ypsilanti is a town to the west of Detroit, just off the I-94 Interstate that connects Detroit and Chicago. Ypsilanti is only 20 miles from the Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport.

Ernie's wife, Linda Farris Kurtz, has her own webpage at lindafarriskurtz

Dr. Linda Kurtz was Professor at Eastern Michigan University for fifteen years, until her retirement in 2004, and has also taught at the Indiana University School of Social Work, the University of Chicago School of Social Service Administration, and the University of Georgia. See Linda Farris Kurtz

See the page she wrote, "In Memory of Ernie Kurtz," at In Memory of Ernie Kurtz

Her book "recovery Groups" has just been published by Oxford University Press, see Recovery Groups

Earlier (in 1997) she published "Self-Help and Support Groups: A Handbook for Practitioners," see http://lindafarriskurtz.com/self-help-and-support-groups/


 
 
 
 



| 10620|10620|2015-04-10 10:25:30|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Unto Thine Ownself be True|
From J. Lobdell, iveyjames, Jeff aliasjb, and cugjp1

****************************************
From: jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

I don't have an answer to the question but research indicates the quotation came into AA from Fitz M -- his son has told me it was his grandfather (Fitz’s father-in-law)'s favorite quotation (not only favorite from Shakespeare). Fitz died in '43, his father-in-law in '39, fwiw.
****************************************
From: iveyjames1@sbcglobal.net (iveyjames1 at sbcglobal.net)

Yes, it is from Hamlet – spoken by Polonius the father of Laertes and Ophelia.
 
What is kind of funny is that Polonius is usually played as a parady of the pompous pseudo-intellectual, full of sententious platitudes.
 
This famous line (along with a couple others) is spoken to his son Laertes as he is about to board a boat to Paris. Polonius gives Laertes his final bit of fatherly advice - but it's meant as a joke; Shakespeare is poking fun at self-impressed windbags.
 
Take what you want and leave the rest ;o)
 
James

****************************************
From: aliasjb@gmail.com (aliasjb at gmail.com)

The language comes from a speech where a man is giving advice to his son (Hamlet's best buddy), who is going away to college in France.  The speech is generally known as Polonius' advice to Laertes and includes other known sayings such as "neither a borrower nor a lender be" and "give every man thy ear but few thy voice."

-- Jeff (323) 463-6603

Give thy thoughts no tongue,
Nor any unproportion'd thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar.
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledged comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel; but being in,
Bear't that the opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thy ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are of a most select and generous, chief in that.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.


****************************************
Also from: cugjp1@yahoo.com (cugjp1 at yahoo.com)

****************************************

| 10621|10621|2015-04-11 13:07:32|J.BARRY Murtaugh|Fwd: NYTimes: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Challenge of Evidence-Bas|
Here's a report that appears to support our experience that the "Really Try"-AA thing works.
But we knew that already.
No naltrexone required.
bear
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Barry Murtaugh <murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 6:52 PM
Subject: NYTimes: Alcoholics Anonymous and the Challenge of Evidence-Based Medicine
To: Barry Murtaugh <murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com>


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/07/upshot/alcoholics-anonymous-and-the-challenge-of-evidence-based-medicine.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share

Separating treatment from selection effects is a longstanding problem in social and medical science. Here’s a look at why.


Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile

Sent from my iPad



--
Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh

Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100
| 10622|10622|2015-04-11 13:12:09|AAHistoryLovers|AA: America's Gift to the World on BBC Radio 4|
Recording of a radio presentation by novelist Alison L. Kennedy, on British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) Radio 4

"AA: America's Gift to the World"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pmrv0

You can hear Bill Wilson's voice talking about the early days of the program -- also a good many comments and explanations from Gail L. from Akron, Ohio (who does a marvelously good job of speaking to the British audience) -- also the voices of many British members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen, talking about how they found the 12-step program.

Sent to us by Laurie Andrews = jennylaurie1@hotmail.com (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com). He lives in a lovely part of the U.K., in Maldon, Essex, about forty miles east of London, right next to a river basin leading down to the English Channel.


| 10623|10623|2015-04-11 14:09:13|AAHistoryLovers|People going to the Ernie Kurtz memorial service|
To Glenn Chesnut from Al Welch from the West Baltimore AA history site (one of the top AA history websites online - a gold mine of good and extremely accurate information):

"Will you be attending?  If so, please say a prayer for Ernie from me.  Like you, he enriched my sobriety. I just wish I could attend the service.  Ernie sent me an inscribed copy of 'Not God' which is one of my prized possessions."




The West Baltimore Group of Alcoholics Anonymous 

****************************************
From Glenn Chesnut to Al Welch:

"Yes, I'm going to be flying in to the Detroit airport late in the evening on Tues., April 21, and renting a car and staying at a motel near Ypsilanti until late in the afternoon of Thurs., April 23."

****************************************

Charlie Bishop, Jr. (the Bishop of Books) tells me that he and a friend will be driving up from West Virginia.

****************************************

Barry Murtaugh (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com) says:

See ya' there. Coming over from Chicago with Leo M. and Father Bill C.

Leo says we are part of the regular rummies squad.

Best Regards, Barry Murtaugh (773.851.2100 mobile phone)

****************************************
On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 1:00 pm, a memorial service for Ernie Kurtz will be held at Dawn Farm in Ypsilanti, Michigan: 6633 Stony Creek Road, Ypsilanti, Michigan 48197. The farm's telephone number is (734) 485-8725.
****************************************






| 10624|10624|2015-04-11 14:12:10|AAHistoryLovers|A Tribute to Ernie Kurtz|
A tribute to Ernie Kurtz from Laurie Andrews in the U.K.
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)
who says, "I think Ernie would have liked this."

WE ARE PEOPLE WHO NORMALLY WOULD NOT MIX

'We are people who normally would not mix' (Big Book, chapter two). I used to share at meetings that I worked in a heavy drinking job, I was a journalist. I stopped saying it when I heard a man say, 'I work in a heavy drinking trade, I'm an undertaker'! I realised then that alcoholics tend to work in heavy drinking jobs. I didn't have half a pint of bitter or gin and tonic to relax after a hard day, and then catch the train home to wife and family. Once in the pub I was there till closing time.

'We are people who normally would not mix'.  My first AA sponsor was a self-employed building plasterer who left school at 15. My second sponsor was a milkman. My current sponsor is a retired surgeon. One of my dearest AA friends is a Catholic priest, I'm a Quaker and an agnostic; I have a precious memory of saying the Serenity prayer with him while crossing the Sea of Galilee on a boat full of pilgrims to the Holy Land, though my understanding of the word God was nothing like his.

'We are people who normally would not mix.' Oh, I'd have mixed with you all right in some sordid bar where I hoped to find understanding companionship and approval. Momentarily I did, but it was the camaraderie of the condemned.  In AA we learn that we have to hang together – or hang separately; that we live under a suspended death sentence, with only a daily reprieve from a fatal condition. That is the incentive and discipline which bind us together.

'We are people who normally would not mix.' In Al-Anon they say, 'You might not like us all, but you will come to love us each in a very special way.' There's a story about an AA member washed up alone on a tiny desert island. Years later he is spotted from a passing liner and a lifeboat is sent to rescue him. One of the sailors greets him and says, 'Why have you built those two huts on either end of your island?' The AA member, pointing, said, 'That one is my home group – and the other one is the meeting I don't go to'!  In a letter now in the AA archives co-founder Bill W. wrote, 'AA will always have its traditionalists, fundamentalists and its relativists ...' people who normally would not mix.  In a GRAPEVINE article he said, 'So long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety the most unmoral, the most anti-social, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce that a new AA group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti-our recovery program, even anti-each other – these rampant individuals are still an AA group if they think so.'

'We are people who normally would not mix.' The long form of our Third Tradition states, 'Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.' (My emphasis) WHERE TO FIND, our directory of AA groups in England, Scotland, Wales and continental Europe, lists women's groups, lesbian and gay groups, Big Book Study groups, Step and Tradition groups, topic discussion groups, agnostic and atheist groups, meditation groups and others. But there is a vital proviso on thecontents page which notes, 'All groups in this directory are listed on the understanding that they are non-restrictive.'  No group can turn away anyone with a drink problem - or insist on any conditions for attending, such as telling anewcomer they must find God, get a sponsor or practise the Steps. AA's many resources are freely available for anyone to use – but there are no instructions, no 'you musts'.  There's room for us all in AA; the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

'We are people who normally would not mix.' The book SHARE AND SHARE ALIKE, which the SHARE team produced to mark the British Fellowship's 60th anniversary in 2007, and which is available from GSO at York, includes contributions from men and women, young and old, a blind man, gay members, religious believers – including a Muslim, and an atheist. It's called the fellowship of the Spirit. Of course I have my share of problems, heartaches and disappointments. I'm not excused life's 'slings and arrows' just because I'm sober. Happy, joyous and free 24/7/365? What an infantile delusion! As an active alcoholic I knew loneliness such as few do. In AA I found release from care, boredom and worry; my imagination was fired and life did mean something at last. I've enjoyed the most satisfactory years of my existence and made lifelong friends, in a fellowship who have escaped disaster together.

ANONYMOUS



| 10625|10622|2015-04-14 11:22:13|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA: America's Gift to the World on BBC Radio 4|
Apr 11 from Glenn C = glennccc@sbcglobal.net

Laurie Andrews ... lives ... in Maldon, Essex, about forty miles east of London, right next to a river basin leading down to the English Channel.

****************************************

Apr 12 from Laurie A = eze_kiel03

Leading down to the North Sea actually!

****************************************

Apr 14 from Glenn C = glennccc@sbcglobal.net

Oops, sorry. A bit mistaken on where it quit being called the Channel and began being called the North Sea.

Fair warning to all. If I should ever offer to take someone on a small boat over to France, tell them to avoid me totally, they're apt to end up in Rotterdam or someplace like that instead of Calais.

| 10626|10626|2015-04-14 11:22:26|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Food for thought ...|
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11531005/Britain-one-of-the-worlds-least-religious-countries-says-poll.html
| 10627|10623|2015-04-14 11:26:10|AAHistoryLovers|Re: People going to the Ernie Kurtz memorial service|
From: toronto_joe_c (omyword at yahoo.com)

See some of you there; Roger C and Joe C are driving down from Toronto on the 21st.


| 10628|10628|2015-04-20 14:12:41|schaberg43|First Appearence of "Co-Founder"|

Can anyone tell me the earliest appearance of the word "co-founder" in print in relation to Bill or to Dr. Bob (i.e magazines, Grapevines, contemporary correspondence or other written records)?


Thanks,


Old Bill

| 10629|10628|2015-04-20 20:16:20|timothybradley91|Re: First Appearence of "Co-Founder"|
Anyone have a picture of Dr. Dan Craske of Chicago they would share?

Thanks!


Tim Bradley
917.361.7343
| 10630|10630|2015-04-24 15:59:30|robert stonebraker|George H. Thacher II residence|

I would appreciate a photo, or even the street address,  of the George H. Thacher II (Ebby’s father) residence in Albany, NY.    I have photos of two mansions owned by  Ebby’s great uncle, John Boyd Thacher (1847—1909), to share with interested members.

 

 

 

 

Robert Stonebraker

212 SW 18th Street

Richmond, IN  47374

(765) 935-0130

 

rstonebraker212@comcast.net

 

| 10631|10631|2015-04-24 16:00:38|hannahclarkmccarthy|Eileen Garrett|

Does anybody have any tips on researching Eileen Garrett, the mystic Bill W. had some contact with? Her foundation has a library but I'm having trouble getting in touch with them. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

| 10632|10632|2015-04-24 16:10:57|martinb0858|A quick start guide for research the early AA History in your area|
I have just finished to a basic history of the start of AA in my District (Area 21 District 12 East Central Illinois) for our local newsletter and wanted to share the steps that I have found that worked for those that may share an interest in doing something similar.

First search the Grapevine Archives for dates that meetings started in our towns.  A basic abstract level search can be done without a subscription, for more detail a 30 day subscription is $4.00 and would go to a good cause (seeking out AA History)!!!  http://da.aagrapevine.org/?q=da/

Then contact GSO archives with a list of cities. If they have the first correspondence on file they will send a transcript (NOT a copy) of the correspondence.  archives@aa.org

 In parallel to this I went to online newspaper archives (not all cities or newspapers are available) and did searches on "Alcoholics Anonymous" (quotes are important to insure an exact match). Alcoholics and Anonymous for the date range of the start of the group. Then I widened this search to include all of the 40's, then the 50's and finally the 60's.    I have since also located the local Microfilm Library of local newspapers and now that I have more specific dates will start researching there as well

I have just finished a four month series of articles for the Districts Newsletter which was received very warmly by all.

Anyone that is interested in finding out what can be gleaned fairly quickly from this process can review the simple articles at.    It would be the 2015 issues.   I'll apologize up front I am not a journalist.

Newsletter Archive - East Central Illinois District 12 Alcoholics Anonymous

 


It is a surprising easy and quick process.   My biggest obstacle was figuring out the process.

Good Luck in you quest! It is an amazing journey!

Martin B.
Newsletter Chair Area 21 District 12 
| 10633|10631|2015-04-25 11:34:38|JohnGaltLives|Re: Eileen Garrett|
Am not an expert on Eileen Garrett but I do recall a book she was a major part of: "The Airmen Who Would Not Die" by John G. Fuller.  Rather sensationalistic, but it tells the supposedly true story of how Eileen Garrett supposedly received messages from several military flyers who died in the crash of a dirigible.  Quite sure that Bill W. does not figure in it, but as I recall it was an interesting read.
| 10634|10631|2015-04-25 11:36:16|shakey1aa|Re: Eileen Garrett|
Google her name and mystic
A lot of stuff shows up. 
Then do a search with the church of Latter Day Saints. They have the largest free data base on ancestry. 
His
Shakey Mike G.
Phila.PA
AAHL's will I See you in Atlanta in July?
Maybe we could all meet up sat morning outside GSO Archives displays like 5 years ago. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 24, 2015, at 8:21 AM, hannahclarkmccarthy@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Does anybody have any tips on researching Eileen Garrett, the mystic Bill W. had some contact with? Her foundation has a library but I'm having trouble getting in touch with them. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

| 10635|10630|2015-04-26 11:35:14|Arthur|Re: George H. Thacher II residence|

I thought I had sent you this

 

The street address was 111 Washington Ave

 

Also John Boyd was Ebby’s uncle - not great uncle

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 12:03 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] George H. Thacher II residence

 

 

I would appreciate a photo, or even the street address,  of the George H. Thacher II (Ebby’s father) residence in Albany, NY.    I have photos of two mansions owned by  Ebby’s great uncle, John Boyd Thacher (1847—1909), to share with interested members.

 

 

 

 

Robert Stonebraker

212 SW 18th Street

Richmond, IN  47374

(765) 935-0130

 

rstonebraker212@comcast.net

 

| 10636|10636|2015-05-01 13:25:07|AAHistoryLovers|Has sobriety date always meant since continuous sobriety?|
From: W. Brewster B. = mec569@yahoo.com (mec569 at yahoo.com)

I took my last drink on June 9, 1993. I had gone to meetings from February 23, 1981 to July 31, 1990 but was only able to stay dry for short periods of time. During those periods, though, I had sponsors, did twelve-step work, and attempted to do the steps without writing them down.

Got sober through a thorough sponsorship with a man's help who used Dr. Bob and Clarence S.'s methods ( a little red pamphlet ), the Big Book, and lots of prayer.
Dr. Bob's sobriety date is the birth of our fellowship.

Have there always been differences of opinion on sobriety dates (their importance or not) or am I imagining things?

Treatment Centers seem to not place that much importance on continuous sobriety.

Just curious,

W. Brewster B.
559-732-6096


| 10637|10637|2015-05-01 13:32:01|martinb0858|Sam Shoemaker's Children of the Second Birth|
I was recently given the honor of photographing this book for archival purposes for the owner.
The book is no longer under any copyright restrictions have I have been given permission to post the book's link for others to enjoy.

This book is very unique in that it has a signed dedication from Rev Shoemaker and has numerous notes in the columns of the text that shed a rare glimpse into the First Century Christian Movement by someone that was watching it all unfold.

Having the opportunity to hold and work with this specific copy for hours I can vouch that it has spiritual qualities that make one think that they are at the Cavalry Mission, Rectory or Church listening first hand as the text unfolds.   This might just be the book collector in me, regardless there are some books that speak more than just the words in the text.

http://fourabsolutes.info/Shoemaker

Martin B  Champaign, IL



| 10638|10638|2015-05-01 15:09:22|AAHistoryLovers|The Science of 12 Step Recovery|
From: jdfoct87@yahoo.com (jdfoct87 at yahoo.com)

Since the early 1990's the 12 Step Model of Recovery has come under heavy attack, with critics of AA and NA cherry picking, and filtering out any empirical evidence related the efficacy of 12 Step programs.

But the recently published book by Joseph Nowinski, Ph.D., If You Work It, It Works! (Hazelden, February 2015) has compiled some of the more favorable research results and has placed them into any easily understandable form:

http://www.lastdoor.org/science-behind-12-step-recovery/


| 10639|10638|2015-05-03 11:30:03|toronto_joe_c|Re: The Science of 12 Step Recovery|
http://rebelliondogspublishing.com/rebellious-radio/blog/is-there-science-behind-the-12-steps-joe-nowinski-s-new-book

I interviewed Joe too. He's a positive foil to the Lance Dodes's of the world. His book makes years of research and journal reporting very accessible to the everyday reader. It's a great reference book.
| 10640|10640|2015-05-08 12:55:09|lark_west|Quiet Time?|

Hello tribe,


Does anyone know the background of the Quiet Time at the beginning of a meeting?


Grateful ...

for you and this most remarkable Way!

~ Lark ~

Chicagoland

| 10641|10641|2015-05-08 12:56:54|ken baratko|"Martian" Ken B's History TImeLine of AA in Houston, TX from 1940-19|
Hi Fellow AA History Lovers.

    The Houston IG building basically doubled in size.
 
     I made a motion in Dec 2013 at IG delegate's meeting to made a timeline of how AA came to Houston in ~1940...and have it pur on the wall.  This project took just a little over a year to do.  There were about 6 people involved.

     2 months ago I finished the project and put all the work together on what looks like a horizontal linear spider web showing how all things eminated from previous items.

     In short, Houston AA started with Clarence Snyder in Cleveland Ohio sending a man named Larry Joule to Houston on a bus in Jan 1940.  He was given a BigBook to read and went to Houston because of his health.  It is said that on the train he had a spiritual experience, and upon arriving in Houston eventually wrote a series of 6 articles in the "old" Houston Post.
      
           ref: http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/houston_press1940.html

     Due to WWII, the process of AA expanding was slow, and about starting in 1950, there was a dramatic increase of groups.

     Feel free to ask any questions...

"Martian" Ken...now living in Cleveland, OH
| 10642|10642|2015-05-08 13:01:07|luvwindnwater|1935 Buffalo Nickel|
What is the significance of a 1935 buffalo nickel being given at anniversaries?
 I get the 1935 part. Thanks, Michael C.


| 10643|10643|2015-05-11 13:37:18|Glenn Chesnut|Give your historical sources: Ernie Kurtz, Nancy Olson, Glenn Chesnu|
1. ERNIE KURTZ

William L. White wrote an article entitled: "Ernest Kurtz Profile, The Historian as Storyteller and Healer."

http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/ernie_kurtz/

In this article, he told how Ernie had taught him over and over (1) to give your historical sources and (2) to learn to tell the difference between statements of historical fact and what was just guesswork and opinion and passing on urban legends.

Bill White said:

=========================
Through these years, Ernie Kurtz communicated a number of crucial lessons to me about researching and writing history. He repeatedly challenged:

1.    Tell the story chronologically (do not confuse your reader).
2.    Tell the story in context (let your reader know what else is going on around the event you are profiling).
3.    Present the historical evidence (sources)—all the evidence.
4.    Separate statements of fact from conjecture and opinion.
5.    Tell the story from multiple perspectives.
6.    Localize and personalize the story.
7.    Stay connected to your readers—keep them wanting to turn the page to find out what happens next.
=========================

2. NANCY OLSON

Between 2000 and 2005, a set of guidelines was slowly worked out for the AAHistoryLovers, and they were finally set down in writing in 2005. They have worked so well, that they have never been changed since. Four of these guidelines are relevant to this topic.

You need to remember that my beloved friend Nancy had in fact spent the 1970's barking orders at numerous U.S. senators and congressional aides, and that some of this at times rubbed off on the way she laid out guidelines or told other people what to do. So her e-mails to members of the AAHistoryLovers were sometimes quite brusk, and brooked no nonsense from the other person. On some occasions she actually signed her e-mails and memos as "Nancy Rex." And some of that flavor can be seen in these guidelines, which are mostly in Nancy's phrasing. Nevertheless, what she said is right, so we need to stop bristling and listen to what she told us!

Nos. 2 and 15 state rather bluntly that the AAHL is NOT a chat room or discussion group; it is a place for posting historical facts.

No. 3 tells the members to STATE THEIR HISTORICAL SOURCES. That means documents and hard evidence. The AAHL is NOT the place to air MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION, no matter how strongly I feel on the subject.

And when an "oldtimer" tells me that "this is what people told me when I first came in," we must remember that whenever the AAHL members try to verify statements of that sort, 98% of the time, they turn out to be total guff, or vague and distorted urban legends.

No. 16 reminds us that the best professional historians in the world sometimes draw different conclusions from the same data. If I disagree with another member of the group, and the historical sources themselves either contradict one another or leave ambivalent what the actual historical facts might have been, then after we have each been given an opportunity to state our case, we stop arguing and agree to disagree.

The full list of guidelines can be read in Glenn F. Chesnut, The History of the AA History Lovers
http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/History%20of%20AA%20History%20Lovers%20Glenn%20Chestnut.pdf

These are however four of the most important guidelines:

=========================
GUIDELINES
AAHistoryLovers
(founded March 2000)

2.  We are not a chat room: please do not use the list to comment on other people's posts.  Comment on the post ONLY if your message has additional history on the subject.

3.  Personal opinions are to be avoided:  no personal opinions, or posts based just on rumor or vague memory of what someone told you will be posted.  To the extent possible please list the sources for any information you send.

15.  "We are not a chat room" also means that this is not a forum for debating current hot topics such as whether it is a violation of the U.S. Constitution for courts to require people to attend A.A. meetings, or whether the A.A. delegates to New York ought to vote to do such and such at next year's session.  There are A.A. chat groups which exist for debating this sort of issue.  The AAHistoryLovers however is a group which is concerned solely with historical questions.

16.  Also, absolutely no attacks on other members of the group which cast personal aspersions on the other member, or attempt to continually "hound" some other member of the group over some issue.  Disagreements over facts or interpretations should be stated politely and calmly, and if the two members still fail to agree after an interchange of opinions, it should be left at that.  Disputes should not be run into the ground, with repeated messages and counter-messages going over the same ground over and over again.
=========================

3. GLENN CHESNUT

GIVING THE SOURCES OF OUR HISTORICAL INFORMATION

Glenn F. Chesnut, in The History of the AA History Lovers

http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/History%20of%20AA%20History%20Lovers%20Glenn%20Chestnut.pdf

explained why, historically, the discovery of the importance of giving your historical sources, and distinguishing between historical fact and personal opinion, was at the heart of the development, two centuries ago, of THE MODERN HISTORICAL METHOD.

Glenn wrote there:

=========================
Why was there all of the emphasis, in this new approach to writing history, upon giving the sources of our information? What was at stake here was THE PRINCIPLE OF VERIFIABILITY. History-writing soon falls into mere legend mongering and the ignorant passing on of malicious rumors and gossip when no means are provided for the readers to check the original sources and see if the historian's claims can be verified.

The rise of modern scientific historiography dates back to the work of the historian Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886), who was dismayed when he looked at the histories of the Protestant Reformation which were currently being written, as he attempted to work out the story as it had actually happened (wie es eigentlich gewesen). Whether Protestant or Catholic, all they did for the most part was to repeat unfounded legends about their own side, and unbelievable malicious nonsense about the other side. Von Ranke insisted that THE PRINCIPLE OF VERIFIABILITY meant that good historians had to go back to the original documents of the Reformation period, including government archives and files of personal correspondence and any other written evidence that could be found from the period itself, so they could make use of genuinely firsthand accounts of what had taken place.

Likewise, attempting to write any kind of objective and scientific AA history was pointless until we devised our own version of the principle of verifiability.

During the crucial period of the AA History Lovers' formation, Nancy Olson, Ernie Kurtz and Glenn Chesnut were in continual contact by phone and e-mail, discussing how to handle each new issue which arose. Ernie and Glenn were professional historians, trained at Harvard and Oxford Universities respectively, and although Nancy had no formal graduate education, she had been trained by a very famous scholar (Mortimer Adler) in the history of ideas at the University of Chicago, another great world-class university.

After Nancy died, Glenn went back through all the e-mails which the three of them had exchanged, and prepared a summary of all of their major conclusions, which he sent on to Ernie. He made only three or four slight verbal changes, and Glenn then kept a copy of this for reference from that point on.
=========================

TO ADD TO WHAT WAS SAID THERE

Some of these AAHL guidelines emphasized the principle of verifiability, while others attempted to keep the group from degenerating into idle chatter and endless opinionated arguments, or emphasized the importance of politeness and respect towards others.

To explain why this is so important, we need to remember that there are already dozens of AA discussion groups and chat groups on the internet. In these groups, the members share little "sermonettes" back and forth, explaining how they live and work the program in their daily life today, and what they personally feel is the most important part of the program. Many of these messages are stimulating and inspiring.

But there is only really one group on the internet which is quite like the AAHistoryLovers. People go there, not to hear sermonettes, no matter how wise and profoundly spiritual these messages are, but to try to find the most accurate information they can about what early AA was like in its Golden Age, back in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, and 60s. But the AAHL has over 2,800 members, and unfortunately, if every member started trying to post little sermons and accounts of their own feelings and personal beliefs, the message system would quickly be swamped with hundreds and hundreds of these, and finally the real AA historians would give up and leave the group, because they wanted a place where they could find out what really happened back seventy or eighty years ago.


| 10644|10636|2015-05-11 13:38:55|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Has sobriety date always meant since continuous sobriety?|
In the earliest AA membership lists, there are occasions apparently when a person's sobriety date indicates the first time that person quit drinking, even if we know that the person had a relapse later on, before that person came back and got permanently sober. For example, a list where Dr Bob's date of sobriety was listed as May of 1934.

========================================
SOURCE:

AAHL message 8061:Names of the First One Hundred
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/8061

From: John Barton
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011
Subject: Names of the First One Hundred

Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in The Golden Road) ....
========================================

But Alcoholics Anonymous, from its beginning, insisted that the only way a hard core chronic alcoholic could achieve a reasonably happy life was to abstain totally from alcohol, and not have periodic drinking sprees.

========================================
NO REPEATERS ALLOWED
in Sister Ignatia's alcoholism ward at St. Thomas Hospital

William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism, chapt. 16, "Kent State University and Sister Ignatia."

In 1951, Bill Swegan was able to observe first hand the alcoholism treatment program which Sister Ignatia had sat up at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, and Bill described her policy of not allowing people back into the alcoholism ward who had been there before, but had slipped and gone back to drinking:

"In 1951, with Dr. Bob gone, Sister Ignatia was using the A.A. sponsors as her prescreening personnel. As she explained it in her article in the hospital journal* which she wrote in that year:
 
'Those of us who have anything to do with admitting these patients would do well to have the humility to rely upon the judgment of the sponsor. Let him decide when the patient is ready for the program. We do not accept repeaters! Sponsors know this, hence they are very careful to qualify the person before bringing him into the hospital. Above all, he must have a sincere desire to stop drinking. Wives, relatives, friends, and well-meaning employers may try to high-pressure the alcoholic into accepting the program.'
 
"In other words, those doing the prescreening have to evaluate how much the alcoholic wants to recover, not how much other people want him or her to recover. And above all, she insisted in her article, experience had shown that in treatment centers where the majority of the patients were repeaters, an overall atmosphere of pessimism and discouragement was created, where even a sincere and highly motivated person who was going into treatment for the first time would often fail."


*Sister M. Ignatia, C.S.A., “The Care of Alcoholics: St. Thomas Hospital and A.A. Started a Movement which Swept the Country,” Hospital Progress (the journal of the Catholic Hospital), October 1951. See also Mary C. Darrah, Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous (Chicago: Loyola University Press, 1992), 104-8.
========================================

As for what modern treatment centers sometimes teach, you may have seen the influence at times of two modern anti-AA movements. You should go to Google and Google for:

alcoholism harm reduction

alcoholism moderation management

But this whole issue concerns non-AA and anti-AA movements, and is outside the purview of the AAHistoryLovers. You will need to find someplace else on the internet to discuss these theories.

.................................................................................
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

AAHL message 10636

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/10636

From: W. Brewster B. = mec569@yahoo.com (mec569 at yahoo.com)

Have there always been differences of opinion on sobriety dates (their importance or not) or am I imagining things?
Treatment Centers seem to not place that much importance on continuous sobriety.
Just curious,

W. Brewster B.


| 10645|10628|2015-05-11 18:02:19|schaberg43|Re: First Appearence of "Co-Founder"|

OK... after three weeks, I have received only one (offline) response to this request. Hmmmm...


Perhaps it will help to say that this one response identified a December 1947 Grapevine article that uses the term "co-founder" in relation to Dr. Bob Smith.


I have also noticed that in the long June 1945 Grapevine article on the 10th anniversary party in Cleveland, that neither Wilson nor Smith is identified as "co-founders" and I think it unlikely that they would not have used that term if it was current at that time.


This would seem to place the first use of this term in December of 1947 or sometime shortly before that - UNLESS someone can turn up an earlier reference for me.


Anyone?


Old Bill

| 10646|10636|2015-05-11 18:03:16|Bob K|Re: Has sobriety date always meant since continuous sobriety?|
I think it's fairly clear that the early folks were not above a little fudging of the Amos list to impress the rich folks. "Galbraith, Ernest" is listed as 31 "months dry." This goes even beyond counting introduction date as sobriety date, and disregarding a slip or two. The "SEVEN MONTH SLIP" guy clearly did not have 31 months dry, even cumulatively.

bob k in whitby
 

From: "Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 4:23 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Has sobriety date always meant since continuous sobriety?

 
In the earliest AA membership lists, there are occasions apparently when a person's sobriety date indicates the first time that person quit drinking, even if we know that the person had a relapse later on, before that person came back and got permanently sober. For example, a list where Dr Bob's date of sobriety was listed as May of 1934.

========================================
SOURCE:

AAHL message 8061:Names of the First One Hundred
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/8061

From: John Barton
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011
Subject: Names of the First One Hundred

Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in The Golden Road) ....
========================================

But Alcoholics Anonymous, from its beginning, insisted that the only way a hard core chronic alcoholic could achieve a reasonably happy life was to abstain totally from alcohol, and not have periodic drinking sprees.

========================================
NO REPEATERS ALLOWED
in Sister Ignatia's alcoholism ward at St. Thomas Hospital

William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism, chapt. 16, "Kent State University and Sister Ignatia."

In 1951, Bill Swegan was able to observe first hand the alcoholism treatment program which Sister Ignatia had sat up at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, and Bill described her policy of not allowing people back into the alcoholism ward who had been there before, but had slipped and gone back to drinking:

"In 1951, with Dr. Bob gone, Sister Ignatia was using the A.A. sponsors as her prescreening personnel. As she explained it in her article in the hospital journal* which she wrote in that year:
 
'Those of us who have anything to do with admitting these patients would do well to have the humility to rely upon the judgment of the sponsor. Let him decide when the patient is ready for the program. We do not accept repeaters! Sponsors know this, hence they are very careful to qualify the person before bringing him into the hospital. Above all, he must have a sincere desire to stop drinking. Wives, relatives, friends, and well-meaning employers may try to high-pressure the alcoholic into accepting the program.'
 
"In other words, those doing the prescreening have to evaluate how much the alcoholic wants to recover, not how much other people want him or her to recover. And above all, she insisted in her article, experience had shown that in treatment centers where the majority of the patients were repeaters, an overall atmosphere of pessimism and discouragement was created, where even a sincere and highly motivated person who was going into treatment for the first time would often fail."


*Sister M. Ignatia, C.S.A., “The Care of Alcoholics: St. Thomas Hospital and A.A. Started a Movement which Swept the Country,” Hospital Progress (the journal of the Catholic Hospital), October 1951. See also Mary C. Darrah, Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous (Chicago: Loyola University Press, 1992), 104-8.
========================================

As for what modern treatment centers sometimes teach, you may have seen the influence at times of two modern anti-AA movements. You should go to Google and Google for:

alcoholism harm reduction

alcoholism moderation management

But this whole issue concerns non-AA and anti-AA movements, and is outside the purview of the AAHistoryLovers. You will need to find someplace else on the internet to discuss these theories.

.................................................................................
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

AAHL message 10636

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/10636

From: W. Brewster B. = mec569@yahoo.com (mec569 at yahoo.com)

Have there always been differences of opinion on sobriety dates (their importance or not) or am I imagining things?
Treatment Centers seem to not place that much importance on continuous sobriety.
Just curious,

W. Brewster B.




| 10647|10647|2015-05-11 18:04:17|J.BARRY Murtaugh|Fwd: [Indyfourthdimension] Exactly eighty Mother's Day's ago|
Is everyone still in agreement of the date?
bear
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 'robert stonebraker' rstonebraker212@comcast.net [Indyfourthdimension] <Indyfourthdimension@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:52 PM
Subject: [Indyfourthdimension] Exactly eighty Mother's Day's ago
To: robert stonebraker <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>


 

Exactly eighty Mother’s Day’s ago, Bill Wilson had a five-hour conversation with Dr. Bob Smith.   It is our duty to continue that discussion!

 

Bob S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




--
Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh

Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100
| 10648|10601|2015-05-11 18:04:49|club4492002|Re: Number of AA members since 1935?|
This is a great article that I have lost myself in several times, in the sense that I go in and come out somewhat dazed an indeterminate time later. But I still don't see how to determine the total # of alkys who have gotten sober since 1935 and either died sober or are still with us. I'm guessing it's in excess of 20 million using New york's figures which I have always considered to count only half of active AAs, if that. I'ld love to have a figure like that to throw back in the faces of AA haters. 
| 10649|10647|2015-05-12 15:48:15|Norm The Tinman|Re: Fwd: [Indyfourthdimension] Exactly eighty Mother's Day's ago|
I believe the date says the 12th for mothers day that year on the list of monthly Historical dates--enjoy the day all   Norm



On Monday, May 11, 2015 10:04 PM, "'J.BARRY Murtaugh' murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" wrote:


 
Is everyone still in agreement of the date?
bear
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 'robert stonebraker' rstonebraker212@comcast.net [Indyfourthdimension] <Indyfourthdimension@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:52 PM
Subject: [Indyfourthdimension] Exactly eighty Mother's Day's ago
To: robert stonebraker <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>


 
Exactly eighty Mother’s Day’s ago, Bill Wilson had a five-hour conversation with Dr. Bob Smith.   It is our duty to continue that discussion!
 
Bob S.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



--
Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh

Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100


| 10650|10642|2015-05-12 17:17:08|Glenn Chesnut|1935 Buffalo Nickel|
1935:
(a) Because that was the year that Bill W. and Dr. Bob met in Akron, Ohio, and formed A.A.
(b) They met because Bill W. was putting into practice the fundamental principle, when you start feeling the urge to drink, find another alcoholic to talk to, over the telephone if not in person.

NICKEL:
Because telephone calls on the pay phone of Mayflower Hotel in Akron cost a nickel each.

BUFFALO:
Because when I googled for 1935 nickels, it appears that the only kind of nickel which the U.S. was minting in 1935 was the Buffalo Nickel. It appears that the Jefferson Nickel did not start being minted until slightly later. I hope however that we have a coin expert in the group who has a catalogue of U.S. coinage, and can verify this.

Nickels do not wear out easily. If you have a 1935 nickel in your possession, there is in fact a chance that this could have been the very nickel that Bill W. used on that day, to make the phone call that eventually put him into contact with Dr. Bob. It's not impossible!


| 10651|10642|2015-05-12 17:17:33|AAHistoryLovers|1935 Buffalo Nickel|
From Richard H., bear8512100, and mangobreath

..............................................................................................................
Richard H. (area73archives at yahoo.com)

Five months sober, Bill Wilson went to Akron, OH, on a business venture. The deal fell through and he walked into the Mayflower Hotel and he wanted a drink. He stood in the hotel lobby, entranced by the sounds of the bar across the hall. Suddenly he became convinced that by helping another alcoholic, he could save himself. He walked over to the phone booth and through a series of desperate calls, each costing a nickel, he found Dr. Bob Smith, a skeptical drunk whose wife persuaded him to give Bill Wilson 15 minutes .... their meeting lasted hours ..... and the seeds of Alcoholic Anonymous were planted.

Bill wrote, "Because of our kinship in suffering, our channels of contact have always been charged with the language of the heart."

I have been giving out these 1935 Buffalo Nickels with a photograph of the Mayflower Hotel Pay phone as our connection with what had taken place 80 years ago and also as a reminder that we need each other and if you are in dire straits....pick up the phone and speak to another alcoholic!

Much Love 2 U,
Richard H.
Area 73 (West Virginia) Archivist

..............................................................................................................

bear8512100 (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)

I have a couple of these 1935 Buffalo nickels as tokens from an AA retreat I've gone to in Tennessee.

bear

- - - -

From Silkworth.net

When Bill Wilson, an Oxford Group member from New York, had come to Akron in 1935, he had phoned Dr. Walter Tunks, a minister affiliated with the Oxford Group. And Tunks, in turn, gave Bill Henrietta's number. Through that phone call, which was supposedly made with Bill's last nickel, a meeting was set up at Henrietta's home, the Gate house of Stan Hywet Hall, her husband's family estate.

- - - -

From Yahoo History Lovers Group

I read that Henrietta Seiberling said in a letter that Bill Wilson's account of his calling her from the Mayflower was a fabrication on his part. Does anyone know what really happened that night of May 11th, 1935? -- Paddy Mur

- - - -

A LETTER FROM HENRIETTA CITED BY MITCHELL K.

Mitchell K. said that Henrietta Seiberling had accused Bill Wilson of lying in his account of how he first phoned her:
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch3.htm

Much of the story relating to the phone calls at the Mayflower has been labeled as false by one of the people who would have known about what actually transpired there.

Henrietta Seiberling, the person who arranged the meeting between Bill and Dr. Bob wrote to an early AA member telling him her side of the story. In that undated (ca. Early 1950's) letter, Henrietta wrote the following about what Bill had written in the RHS Memorial Grapevine issue.

"His accounts in the "Memoriam" Grapevine were made up - Telephone conversations, etc - Everything phony ..."

- - - -

WHAT BILL W. WROTE IN THE 1951 GRAPEVINE:

Dr. Bob Memorial Edition of the AA Grapevine (1951)
Message #1637

It was a Saturday in May, 1935. An ill-starred business venture had brought me to Akron where it immediately collapsed leaving me in a precarious state of sobriety. That afternoon I paced the lobby of Akron's Mayflower Hotel. As I peered at the gathering crowd in the bar, I became desperately frightened of a slip. It was the first severe temptation since my New York friend had laid before me what were to become the basic principles of AA, in November 1934. For the next six months I had felt utterly secure in my sobriety. But now there was no security; I felt alone, helpless. In the months before I had worked hard with other alcoholics. Or, rather, I had preached at them in a somewhat cocksure fashion. In my false assurance I felt I couldn't fall. But this time it was different. Something had to be done at once.

Glancing at a Church Directory at the far end of the lobby, I selected the name of a clergyman at random. Over the phone I told him of my need to work with another alcoholic. Though I'd had no previous success with any of them I suddenly realized how such work had kept me free from desire. The clergyman gave me a list of ten names. Some of these people, he was sure, would refer me a case in need of help. Almost running to my room, I seized the phone. But my enthusiasm soon ebbed. Not a person in the first nine called could, or would, suggest anything to meet my urgency.

One uncalled name still stood at the end of my list - Henrietta S. Somehow I couldn't muster courage to lift the phone. But after one more look into the bar downstairs something said to me, "You'd better." To my astonishment a warm Southern voice floated in over the wire. Declaring herself no alcoholic, Henrietta nonetheless insisted that she understood. Would I come to her home at once?

Because she had been enabled to face and transcend other calamities, she certainly did understand mine. She was to become a vital link to those fantastic events which were presently to gather around the birth and development of our AA society. Of all names the obliging Rector had given me, she was the only one who cared enough. I would here like to record our timeless gratitude.

Straightway she pictured the plight of Dr. Bob and Anne. Suiting action to her word, she called their house. As Anne answered, Henrietta described me as a sobered alcoholic from New York who, she felt sure, could help Bob. The good doctor had seemingly exhausted all medical and spiritual remedies for his condition. Then Anne replied, "What you say, Henrietta, is terribly interesting. But I am afraid we can't do anything now. Being Mother's Day, my dear boy has just brought in a fine potted plant. The pot is on the table but, alas, Bob is on the floor. Could we try to make it tomorrow?"

Henrietta instantly issued a dinner invitation for the following day.
At five o'clock next afternoon, Anne and Dr. Bob stood at Henrietta's door. She discreetly whisked Bob and me off to the library.

- - - -

WHAT HENRIETTA SAID IN THE TAPE RECORDING
which was played at the 1971 Founders Day in Akron, Ohio

Message #138
Henrietta Sieberling on A.A.'s beginnings, supplied by Congressman John Seiberling
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138

Transcript Of Remarks by Henrietta B. Seiberling:

Bill, when he was in a hotel in Akron and down to a few dollars and owed his bill after his business venture fell through, looked at the cocktail room and was tempted and thought, "Well, I'll just go in there and get drunk and forget it all, and that will be the end of it." Instead, having been sober five months in the Oxford Group, he said a prayer. He got the guidance to look in a ministers directory, and a strange thing happened.

He just looked in there, and he put his finger on one name: Tunks. And that was no coincidence, because Dr. Tunks was Mr. Harvey Firestone's minister, and Mr. Firestone had brought 60 of the Oxford Group people down there for 10 days out of gratitude for helping his son, who drank too much. His son had quit for a year and a half or so. Out of the act of gratitude of this one father, this whole chain started.

So Bill called Dr. Tunks, and Dr. Tunks gave him a list of names. One of them was Norman Sheppard, who was a close friend of mine and knew what I was trying to do for Bob. Norman said, "I have to go to New York tonight but you can call Henrietta Seiberling." When he told the story, Bill shortened it by just saying that he called Dr. Tunks, but I did not know Dr. Tunks. Bill said that he had his last nickel, and he thought, "Well, I'll call her."

So I, who was desperate to help bob in something I didn't know much about, was ready. Bill called, and I will never forget what he said: "I'm from the Oxford Group and I'm a Rum Hound." Those were his words. I thought, "This is really manna from Heaven." And I said, "You come right out here." And my thought was to put those two men together. Bill, looking back, thought he was out to help someone else. Actually, he was out to get help for himself, no thought of helping anyone else, because he was desperate. But that is the way that God helps us if we let God direct our lives. And so he came out to my house, and he stayed for dinner. And I told him to come to church with me next morning and I would get Bob, which I did.

Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile

..............................................................................................................


(mangobreath692001 at yahoo.com)

This is my first post here and would like to thank all of you for this tremendous amount of history and research.

As for the 1935 Buffalo nickel question, my question to you is, "Have you researched the question before you asked?" I did a Google search and had several answers in under 10 minutes. I personally feel it is an insult to every researcher to come and drop a question bomb without doing any research yourself.

Okay, I will step away and watch, read and learn. Thank you!!!!


| 10652|10652|2015-05-13 11:50:04|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Quiet Time|
From: bear8512100

Try this for a start:  Dick B. at silkworth.net

"A Look at 'Meditation' in Early AA: The Names They Gave It"

by Dick B.

http://silkworth.net/dickb/meditation.html

- - - -

Also lots of refs in " 'Quiet Time Guidance' and 'Step Work Timing' passages in A.A. World Services, Inc. Conference-approved books, 'Pass It On', 'Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers', 'Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age', 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions', and the basic text of 'Alcoholics Anonymous' " at this website:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=AA%20Quiet%20Time%20Big%20Book&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CBAQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Femotionalsobrietyandfood.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F04%2Fquiettimeguidanceandstepworktimingpassages_12052012.pdf&ei=J0lNVYLuAszaoASP1IDQCw&usg=AFQjCNHI3jRru8qtxXGqDGFswMOxPPaV0g

Best Regards
Barry Murtaugh
773.851.2100 mobile

 
| 10653|10640|2015-05-13 11:51:17|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Quiet Time?|
Begin by simply googling for:

Oxford Group Quiet Time

********************************************

Also see the wikipedia article on the Oxford Group at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group

Guidance

The central practice to the Oxford/MRA members was guidance, which was usually sought in the "quiet time" of early morning using pen and paper. The grouper would normally read the Bible or other spiritual literature, then take time in quiet with pen and paper, seeking God's direction for the day ahead, trying to find God's perspective on whatever issues were on the listener's mind. He or she would test their thoughts against the standards of absolute honesty, purity, unselfishness and love, and normally check with a colleague.

Guidance was also sought collectively from groupers when they formed teams. They would take time in quiet, each individual writing his or her sense of God's direction on the matter in question. They would then check with each other, seeking consensus on the action to take.

Some church leaders criticised this practice. Others supported it. The Oxford theologian, Dr B H Streeter, Provost of Queen's College, made it the subject of the Warburton Lectures, given at Oxford University in 1933-5. These lectures were published under the title The God Who Speaks. Throughout the ages, he wrote, men and women have sought God's will in quiet and listening. The Oxford Group was following a long tradition.

Sometimes groupers were banal in their descriptions of guidance. However, innumerable examples can be given of groupers discovering creative initiatives through times of quiet seeking God's direction, as can be seen in books about the Oxford Group such as A J Russell's book, 'For Sinners Only', which went through 17 editions in two years, or Garth Lean's 'Frank Buchman - a life'
********************************************


********************************************
Glenn F. Chesnut, book on "Father Ed Dowling: Bill Wilson's Sponsor," Chap. 23.
Pre-publication copy available online at:
EITHER http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.pdf
OR http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

In both Akron and New York, the early A.A. members began by trying to work their spiritual programs while attending meetings of the Oxford Group, which had already come to the awareness that many of our most important moral decisions could not be made by simply following a mechanical set of dogmatic rules.

The Oxford Group had developed a technique for going to God for guidance whenever we needed to make decisions of this sort. After first having a Quiet Time, where we tried to turn our minds off and simply sit without thinking about anything, we took a pencil and a piece of paper, and starting writing down all the thoughts which appeared in our minds. This was called automatic writing, and was one of the methods used by mediums and spiritualists to try to come into contact with the spirit world. [Note 393]

.... The most important source of Oxford Group teaching here was F. B. Meyer’s book, The Secret of Guidance.  Meyer (1847-1929) was a liberal English Baptist preacher who had a B.A. from the University of London. He was deeply opposed to the new Protestant Fundamentalist movement: they were violent, divisive people, as far as he was concerned, who placed entirely too much emphasis on doctrines and dogmas.

And although a Baptist, there was notable Quaker influence in his background, which was one possible reason for his interest in learning to listen for God’s voice and influence inside our minds. One of his grandmothers was a Quaker, and he was also influenced by an American woman named Hannah Pearsall Smith who had Quaker roots.

Meyer’s great importance was that, between 1887 and 1928, he addressed twenty-six Keswick Conventions, and was a major spokesman for the Keswick Holiness movement, which combined evangelical theology with elements drawn from Roman Catholic mystical theology (especially St. John of the Cross and Johann Tauler). The Keswick Convention is a very important religious gathering which has been held annually ever since 1875 in the small resort town by that name, which is located in the beautiful Lake District on the northwest coast of England (about two hours north of Liverpool and Manchester, and two hours south of Glasgow). It was at the Keswick Convention of 1908 that Frank Buchman had the religious experience which gave birth to the Oxford Group.

Although the early A.A. members in Akron originally participated in the automatic writing sessions at the Oxford Group meeting there, by the time the Big Book had been published they had decided to simplify their techniques for obtaining guidance. We see no statements in that book about them taking out pencil and paper and automatically writing down every idea that popped into their minds. Instead we see on pages 86-88 of the Big Book the simple suggestions:

=============================
In thinking about our day we may face indecision. We may not be able to determine which course to take.  Here we ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or a decision. We relax and take it easy.  We don’t struggle. We are often surprised how the right answers come after we have tried this for a while. What used to be the hunch or the occasional inspiration gradually becomes a working part of the mind.

Being still inexperienced and having just made conscious contact with God, it is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times. We might pay for this presumption in all sorts of absurd actions and ideas. Nevertheless, we find that our thinking will, as time passes, be more and more on the plane of inspiration. We come to rely upon it ....

As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves many times each day “Thy will be done.”
=============================

********************************************


********************************************
Bill Wilson's use of automatic writing and ouija boards

Glenn F. Chesnut, book on "Father Ed Dowling: Bill Wilson's Sponsor," Chapter 31.
Pre-publication copy available online at:
EITHER http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.pdf
OR http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

Contains a long quotation from Susan Cheever, My Name Is Bill: Bill Wilson — His Life and the Creation of Alcoholics Anonymous (New York: Washington Square Press, 2004), p. 204:

=============================
Sometimes the Wilsons used a Ouija board .... Lois and Bill, or two or three of the other participants, rested their fingers lightly on the board, closed their eyes, and allowed the unconscious pressure from their fingers to move the triangular marker across the smooth surface. Sometimes it stopped on Yes or No; at other times it spelled out what seemed to be words.

On evenings when they decided to use the table instead of the Ouija board, they gathered around it, each person with their fingers resting lightly on the table’s sharp edge. They dimmed the lights. Bill’s voice would often ask the questions. “Are there any spirits in the room?” he would ask. “Are there any spirits who have a message for us?” ....

Then the people seated around the table would hear a soft, hesitant tap. Sometimes, if Bill had asked a direct question, the taps meant yes or no: one for yes and two for no. At other times the spirits had a longer message. If it tapped once, that meant the letter A, twice for the letter B and so on. In an evening the table might tap out a phrase or two. According to both Bill and Lois, on more than one occasion they succeeded in levitating the table a few inches off the floor.

At other times the Wilsons and their guests experimented with automatic writing. Bill Wilson was very good at this. He would set a pen down on a piece of paper, close his eyes and wait for the spirit to guide his hand. On some evenings Bill would relax his long frame out on the living room couch in front of the big stone fireplace and wait in a state of half-dreaming, half-consciousness, the smoke curling up from his cigarette. Lying there, he would receive messages, sometimes whole, as when he heard the Reverend Dwight Moody warning him against the past, and sometimes they would come to him letter by letter [and he would spell out the words, one by one, in a quiet voice].
=============================

********************************************


********************************************
Automatic writing

Glenn F. Chesnut, book on "Father Ed Dowling: Bill Wilson's Sponsor," Chapter 32.
Pre-publication copy available online at:
EITHER http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.pdf
OR http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

Hélène Smith, the popularizer of automatic writing: In the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, this psychic from the French-speaking part of Switzerland became famous for her use of automatic writing to communicate with the spirit world. [Note 503]  She was called “the Muse of Automatic Writing” by the Surrealist movement in painting and literature, that is, people like Salvador Dalí, Max Ernst, Man Ray, Hans Arp, and Joan Miró, who believed that they were bringing the images they painted and described directly up out of the subconscious.

=============================
As a side note, one can see a much more sophisticated version of this attempt to draw images directly out of the unconscious in The Red Book, written and illustrated during that same general period, c. 1914-1930, by the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung. He believed that this sort of imagery drawn from the unconscious did in fact put us in some kind of contact with God and the divine world, via the collective unconscious and its archetypes.
=============================

The most famous proponents of automatic writing within the A.A. tradition, we remember, were the people of the Oxford Group, including those who attended the Oxford Group meeting at T. Henry and Clarace Williams’ home in Akron, Ohio, where Dr. Bob and the other early Akron A.A. members were still involved in automatic writing as late as 1938 and afterward.

At any rate, Hélène Smith (1861-1929, real name Catherine-Elise Müller) began to show abilities as a medium in 1892. At the beginning of her career, she began by doing simple things like producing rapping sounds and table-tipping during séances, and later on began going into trances where she could do various things but claimed she could re-member nothing afterwards. During one period of her life, she claimed that she was visiting a civilization on the planet Mars while she was in her trance states. She would use automatic writing to write out messages in what she said was the Martian language, using a form of writing which she claimed was the Martian alphabet. The problem with this was, that when the “Martian” message was translated by her, it followed the syntax and grammar of a small child speaking French, with what seemed to be a made-up word replacing what would have been the French word in each instance. And the “Martian alphabet”  corresponded letter for letter with the Roman alphabet, simply using a different made-up symbol to stand for each sound. All told, her “Martian language” seemed less like an unconscious imaginary invention arising during a genuine trance state, and much more like an elaborately devised, laboriously practiced, and carefully organized fraud.
********************************************


********************************************
How early AA meetings were conducted: 1938-1942

Glenn Chesnut, AA and Oxford Group meetings in Akron and Cleveland: 1938-1942  A short description of how the earliest AA meetings were conducted in these two cities, drawn from Mitchell K.'s How It Worked (containing Clarence Snyder's accounts of early AA life), J.D. Holmes' reminiscences in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers and in his memoirs in the New York Archives (there are copies of these memoirs also in various Indiana state AA archives), and in the 1942 Akron Manual. This talk was given by Glenn Chesnut as part of a panel discussion at the Sedona Mago AA History Symposium in Sedona, Arizona, February 21-23, 2014.

http://hindsfoot.org/akronmeet.doc

Glenn F. Chesnut, AA meetings in Akron and Cleveland in 1938-1942: their use of Oxford Group practices, Emmet Fox, and The Upper Room  A longer description of how AA meetings were held during that period, with more detailed acounts of what they drew from Emmet Fox's writings and from the daily meditations in The Upper Room.

http://hindsfoot.org/akronmeet2.doc
********************************************

NOTE 393.
It has also long been believed that highly spiritually attuned people called dowsers can obtain contact with the spiritual realm by using different kinds of devices, such as a small pendulum swinging on a string held in their fingertips. It has also long been believed — for thousands of years in fact — that people who are now called channelers can use various methods for coming in contact with spirit guides from the higher realm who are able to speak directly in and through the channeler.

NOTE 503.
Augustin Poulain, S.J., The Graces of Interior Prayer: A Treatise on Mystical Theology. Translated from the 6th edition by Leonora L. Yorke Smith. London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., 1921. Pages 299-300.


| 10654|10628|2015-05-13 11:52:16|ckbudnick|Re: First Appearence of "Co-Founder"|
Hey Bill,


In the program for the Twelfth Anniversary of the forming of Alcoholics Anonymous, June 14th and 15th, 1947 at the Masonic Auditorium, Cleveland, OH, it states: "Two years ago, on June 10th, the Cleveland Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous were privileged to be hosts at the celebration of the 10th Anniversary of the forming of A.A. Visitors from almost every state in the Union attended the meeting and were thrilled as well as heartened to greater devotion to the cause of alleviating our common suffering upon hearing Bill. W. and Doc S., co-founders, give their humble utterances of A.A. philosophy."


Chris B.
Raleigh, NC




---- "bill@athenararebooks.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


=============
OK... after three weeks, I have received only one (offline) response to this request. Hmmmm...



Perhaps it will help to say that this one response identified a December 1947 Grapevine article that uses the term "co-founder" in relation to Dr. Bob Smith.



I have also noticed that in the long June 1945 Grapevine article on the 10th anniversary party in Cleveland, that neither Wilson nor Smith is identified as "co-founders" and I think it unlikely that they would not have used that term if it was current at that time.



This would seem to place the first use of this term in December of 1947 or sometime shortly before that - UNLESS someone can turn up an earlier reference for me.



Anyone?



Old Bill
| 10655|10647|2015-05-13 11:52:45|Chuck Parkhurst|Re: Fwd: [Indyfourthdimension] Exactly eighty Mother's Day's ago|

Enlightened Members

 

Can anyone shed ANY specific details or anecdotes of what Bill and Bob discussed on that important day?  Five hours is a long time to talk, even for a couple of drunks.

 

In Service With Gratitude

 

Chuck Parkhurst

 

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 7:19 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Fwd: [Indyfourthdimension] Exactly eighty Mother's Day's ago

 




I believe the date says the 12th for mothers day that year on the list of monthly Historical dates--enjoy the day all   Norm

 

 

On Monday, May 11, 2015 10:04 PM, "'J.BARRY Murtaugh' murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

Is everyone still in agreement of the date?

bear

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 'robert stonebraker' rstonebraker212@comcast.net [Indyfourthdimension] <Indyfourthdimension@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:52 PM
Subject: [Indyfourthdimension] Exactly eighty Mother's Day's ago
To: robert stonebraker <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>

 

Exactly eighty Mother’s Day’s ago, Bill Wilson had a five-hour conversation with Dr. Bob Smith.   It is our duty to continue that discussion!

 

Bob S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




--

Best Regards,
J.Barry Murtaugh

Court Maroon, Ltd.
773-851-2100

 




| 10656|10642|2015-05-13 11:53:22|gcb900|Re: 1935 Buffalo Nickel|
Jefferson nickel was mined in he fall of 1938.
 
 
In a message dated 5/12/2015 8:17:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

1935:
(a) Because that was the year that Bill W. and Dr. Bob met in Akron, Ohio, and formed A.A.
(b) They met because Bill W. was putting into practice the fundamental principle, when you start feeling the urge to drink, find another alcoholic to talk to, over the telephone if not in person.

NICKEL:
Because telephone calls on the pay phone of Mayflower Hotel in Akron cost a nickel each.

BUFFALO:
Because when I googled for 1935 nickels, it appears that the only kind of nickel which the U.S. was minting in 1935 was the Buffalo Nickel. It appears that the Jefferson Nickel did not start being minted until slightly later. I hope however that we have a coin expert in the group who has a catalogue of U.S. coinage, and can verify this.

Nickels do not wear out easily. If you have a 1935 nickel in your possession, there is in fact a chance that this could have been the very nickel that Bill W. used on that day, to make the phone call that eventually put him into contact with Dr. Bob. It's not impossible!


| 10657|10643|2015-05-13 17:16:34|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Give your historical sources: Ernie Kurtz, Nancy Olson, Glenn Ch|
Historical facts, sources, evidence... As a first year undergraduate I learned the difference between primary and secondary sources.

A classic example of a widely quoted secondary source is the claim attributed to Aldous Huxley that Bill Wilson was the greatest social architect of the 20th century - but there's no record that he actually said or wrote it. 

| 10658|10642|2015-05-13 17:23:33|AAHistoryLovers|1935 Buffalo Nickel|
From: (luvwindnwater at yahoo.com) 

Thank you Glenn and all others.....I am very fond of reading AA history.

And to Richard H. I love the idea of accompanying the 1935 nickel with a photograph of the Mayflower Hotel Pay phone.

And Mango I did Google and Googled some more, first ........ I just Googled again and all that came up was this post ..... (Ha! that's funny) .... I did not mean to insult you.


| 10659|10636|2015-05-13 17:28:04|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Has sobriety date always meant since continuous sobriety?|
From: eze_kiel03 (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

The foreword to the second edition of the Big Book (1955) notes that 'public acceptance of AA grew by leaps and bounds' (for two main reasons): first, 'The large number of recoveries ... of alcoholics who came to AA and really tried 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder those who stayed on with AA showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few AA meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these - about two out of three  - began to return as time passed.'

Did those who had relapses regard their first AA meeting as their sobriety date? And did those who stayed with AA and  'showed improvement' refute the notion that alcoholism is a progressive condition? I knew a man in early recovery whose AA nickname was Slipper Ron because although he had been attending AA meetings for 20 years he never completed a year sober before drinking again. He used to share that that pattern of drinking probably saved his life because he was physically abstinent for such long periods that his health did not suffer greatly and he was at much less risk of e.g. being killed in a road accident.


| 10660|10660|2015-05-18 13:25:27|Glenn Chesnut|Quiet Time vs. moment of silence|
From Glenn Chesnut, tompasek, Rick T., Scott Chambers, RedHedd

.......................................................
From Glenn Chesnut = (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

QUIET  TIME:
Quieting the mind to put yourself into a trance state or semi-trance state, so you can use pencil and paper to write down all the messages which Jesus will start sending you inside your mind.

Google for: Oxford Group Quiet Time

Also see the wikipedia article on "Mediumship," section 3.8 "Channeling."  Famous channelers include J. Z. Knight, who channels the spirit of Ramtha, a 30 thousand-year-old man. Jane Roberts is a channeler for Seth, Esther Hicks for Abraham, Darryl Anka for Bashar, and Lee Carroll for Kryon. You can check all these out on You Tube, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7PbZ6f7QPU

For more information about the Oxford Group, A.A., and Quiet Time, see:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/10653

A  MOMENT  OF  SILENCE:

It was commonplace in numerous Protestant religious denominations for the pastor to say "let us have a moment of silent prayer" before the group read a standard liturgical prayer in unison (e.g. the Lord's Prayer), or the pastor spoke a long extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes the pastor or leader would tell the congregation what to pray for ("for Jane Jones, who is in the hospital" or -- in AA -- "for the alcoholic who still suffers").

Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Disciples of Christ, etc.

Most early AA people had one of those Protestant denominations in their childhood religious background, so they would automatically and unthinkingly introduce these moments of silence into the ritual for AA meetings. It doesn't take any complicated explanation -- it's not from reading Sam Shoemaker, or anything like that. They were used to this practice in the church services they attended as children, and just assumed that this was part of what went on in a spiritual gathering.

IT  IS  IMPORTANT  NOT  TO  CONFUSE  THESE  TWO -- Quiet Time and moment of silent prayer -- they are two totally different things.

.......................................................
From: tompasek (tp at bak.rr.com), Rick T., Scott Chambers

In California (and most meetings that I have been to outside of California) the common opening includes something to the effect of “…and may we have a moment of silence for those who are still suffering followed by the Serenity Prayer.” Is this the same thing? Description: Free Sketch 3 Tom Pasek, CEO Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC 7850 White Lane, Suite E-260 Bakersfield, California 93309 661.654.9116 (Phone) 253.390.8827 (Fax) tom@shaggyd.com www.shaggyd.com

.......................................................
From: Rick T., Illinois = (richardwtompkins at gmail.com)

Hi group, and my good friend Lark,

The quiet time may have been implemented first in Chicago meetings.

Chicago AA’s “Set Up Group” committee who worked the logistics of the Open meetings of the early 1940s stated the practice to specifically begin meetings with a quiet time, rather than a spoken prayer.

The transcript of the February 1951 Chicago Group electing a Delegate began with Earl T. opening the session and requesting a quiet time “as customary here.”

If the quiet time that replaced a spoken prayer was started somewhere else, it’s entirely possible!

Rick T, Illinois
.......................................................

From: Scott Chambers = (jscinca@aol.com)

Not certain but Sam Shoemaker makes specific mention of listening to God and why its good to start meetings with silence...pg 263-264 AA Comes Of Age ... as you know Sam Shoemaker was a vital part of our program of recovery..big influence on Bill Wilson. Scott Chambers, El Paso Texas

FROM THE MODERATOR:
No, the page reference is AA Comes of Age pp. 265-266, which says:
"Real prayer is not telling God what we want. It is putting ourselves at His disposal so that He can tell us what He wants .... That's why it is so important for us to listen as well as talk when we pray. That's why it is good to begin these meetings with silence. Oftentimes we come feverishly and willfully, and we have just got to quiet down before God can do anything for us."

What the Rev. Shoemaker was talking about here was one Protestant clergyman's rationale for a standard Protestant practice. This kind of moment of silence was not specific to the Oxford Group, and did not involve putting yourself into a trance state so that you could channel Jesus.

.......................................................
From: RedHedd@att.net (RedHedd at att.net)

Our experience has taught us .... it's just a smart way to quiet the mind and prepare oneself to receive the message.  Not sure where or when it started, but I am so grateful for the brilliance, simplicity and common sense of our forefathers.

What I don't appreciate is when a secretary states "let's open the meeting with a moment of silence" and then immediately jumps into the opening prayer with no moment at all.  Please give us that moment or two or three.  It helps me to quiet my mind and prepare my vessel to receive

.......................................................

Original message no. 10640: Quiet Time?
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/10640
From lark_west (lark at wildwestway.org)

Does anyone know the background of the Quiet Time at the beginning of a meeting?



| 10661|10661|2015-05-18 14:08:24|AAHistoryLovers|Big Book divine in nature|
From: (mikerozza at ymail.com)

I don't know if this is so.. Anyone who has information on it I would be very grateful to learn.. I may be wrong in what I understand or listen to.. But I have herd that before the big book was published the original manuscript was passed around to spiritual leaders and different organizations in religious sects to determine whether or not it was God inspired and written Divinely??? I would love to know the back story to this as well as which leaders and sects so called "graded" this and how it is graded?????


| 10662|10661|2015-05-18 14:24:12|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Big Book divine in nature|
THE  WHOLE  BIG  BOOK:

See Pass It On, Chapter 11, pp. 193-206, for the entire story of how the Big Book was written:

pp. 197-199 twelve steps (by automatic writing)
pp. 200 multilithed copies (400 of them)
p. 201 Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick, a Protestant pastor, gave the book his endorsement.
p. 201 It then received approval from the Catholic Committee on Publications of the New York Roman Catholic Archdiocese.

Please note that neither Fosdick nor the Committee on Publications was saying that the Big Book was "divine in nature"  or "inspired by God just like the Bible or the Koran," or "infallible."

Fosdick and the Committee were saying that the Big Book was HARMLESS, which is a totally different kind of statement. That is, they were saying that reading the Big Book wouldn't harm any Christian's faith.

.......................................................

THE  TWELVE  STEPS:

are quiet different. Both Father Ed Dowling (the Roman Catholic priest who was Bill W's sponsor from 1940 to 1960) and the Rev. Sam Shoemaker (the Episcopalian pastor who worked with Bill W. when he was first getting sober in 1934 to 1937), believed that Bill W. was divinely inspired when he wrote the twelve steps by what was basically the Oxford Group method of automatic writing.

See Glenn F. Chesnut, book on Father Ed Dowling: Bill Wilson's Sponsor.
Pre-publication copy available online at:
EITHER  http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.pdf
OR  http://hindsfoot.org/dowtext.doc

Chapter 29 of Glenn's book:
"Father Dowling believed that the way in which Bill Wilson had been given the twelve steps, which just popped into his mind and flowed forth from his pen in a few minutes time, showed that they had to be divinely inspired. [note 453] God intervened and put those words in his head ...."

Chapter 32 of Glenn's book:
"It seems that, at one level, Father Dowling wanted to be sure that Bill Wilson was taking some of his own spiritual experiences with deadly seriousness. In Bill’s extraordinary vision of the divine light at Towns Hospital in 1934, he was given a special mission by God, and Father Ed wanted Bill to understand that as the most important thing in his entire life, the task for which he must, if necessary, sacrifice everything else. Father Ed also believed that the way Bill received the twelve steps -- appearing in his mind over the course of just a few minutes time, in perfect order, without any great conscious effort on his part -- was a clear indication that the steps were a divine revelation inspired directly by God. As Father Ed said in a speech to the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism:

=================================
'To a priest who asked Bill how long it took him to write those twelve steps he said that it took twenty minutes.  If it were twenty weeks, you could suspect improvisation.  Twenty minutes sounds reasonable under the theory of divine help.' [note 498]
=================================

    (Just as a side note, the Rev. Sam Shoemaker held the same opinion, and likened the way Bill Wilson received the twelve steps to the way in which he believed that Moses must have received the Ten Commandments. [note 499])
    But Father Dowling also clearly wanted Bill to read all the accounts which Poulain gave of fraud and self-deception on the part of people who claimed to be mediums, psychics, and the receivers of special divine revelation, even within the Church itself.
    So for example, one could NOT count on the one hundred percent accuracy of factual statements made in the revelations and visions even of quite saintly people: the mistakes were still there, even if they clearly involved no deliberate and conscious fraud."

_______________________________________________
Note 453: In Edward Dowling, “Catholic Asceticism and the Twelve Steps,”* Father Ed commented: “To a priest who asked Bill how long it took him to write those twelve steps he said that it took twenty minutes.  If it were twenty weeks, you could suspect improvisation.  Twenty minutes sounds reasonable under the theory of divine help.” See also Fitzgerald, Soul of Sponsorship 67-68 and note 122.

=================================
*Edward Dowling, S.J., “Catholic Asceticism and the Twelve Steps.” National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism, Blue Book (1953). Dowling’s article is available online in AAHistoryLovers message no. 346, “Religion & AA – N.C.C.A. ‘Blue Book’ an anthology,” at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AAHistoryLovers/conversations/topics/346. Also as AAHistoryLovers message no. 1322, ‘Rel. & AA. - The "Blue Book", 1953,’ at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/1322. And also at http://www.silkworth.net/religion_clergy/01038.html.
=================================

Note 498: As Father Dowling put it his talk on Catholic asceticism, “To a priest who asked Bill how long it took him to write those twelve steps he said that it took twenty minutes.  If it were twenty weeks, you could suspect improvisation.  Twenty minutes sounds reasonable under the theory of divine help.” See Edward Dowling, “Catholic Asceticism”; see also Fitzgerald, Soul of Sponsorship 67-68 and note 122.

Note 499: From the Wikipedia online article on Sam Shoemaker (Samuel Moor Shoemaker III) as accessed on August 3, 2014: “Rev. Shoemaker ... addressed an A.A. group in Charlotte, North Carolina, June 17, 1962 saying: ‘To set the record straight, that there has gotten going in A.A., a kind of rumor, that I had a lot to do with the 12 steps. I didn’t have any more to do with those 12 steps other than that book had, those twelve steps, I believe came to Bill by himself, I think he told me they came to him in about 40 minutes and I think it’s one of the great instances of direct inspiration that I know in human history, inspiration which doesn’t only bring material straight down outta heaven, but brings rather I think from God the ability to interpret human experience in such a way that you distill it down into transmissible principles, I compare it to Moses going up on a mountain and bringing down Ten tables of the Law, I don’t think that’s the first time Moses ever thought about righteousness, but I’m glad he went up there and got those ten and brought ’em down and gave ’em to us.’”

| 10663|10663|2015-05-18 14:24:43|dolfansteve72|Lemon Tree|
Does anyone know the significance of the Lemon Tree in AA ?
I belong to a history group in Tampa that Sandy B. started. I remember Sandy telling me why the Lemon Tree name was chosen for the group but cannot remember the the story any longer. Now the group members are asking me, so I'm looking for help ! Thank you in advance, Stephen
| 10664|10664|2015-05-18 15:14:42|AAHistoryLovers|Format and scope of AA Meetings 1935-39 in Akron and NY|
From: (recoveredalky at gmail.com)

Hi fellow AAHistoryLovers
This is "martian" Ken in Cleveland, Ohio

I am trying to determine the format of AA meetings as they started in 1935 and ran thru ~1939

What I now know is as follows...
-Anne had morning meditation with Bill & Bob but that was not part of meeting
-Meetings in Akron were once a week
-They were held on Wed even at some persons place
-~1940, the meeting on Wed moved to the King's School
-Have no information on what and where Bill's meetings he had when he went back to NY.   I know he started Club 24...Do we know anything about NY meetings...did they just go to Oxford meetings, just like Akron did.
-Read something that said that all supposed AA meeting during the early time were held at Oxford Group, i.e, there was no formal AA meeting per se ... they went to Oxford meeting.
-I have also read that during this early time, "members" did not say they were alcoholic, they just said their name.

We know meetings changed in about mid 39 because that was when the BB was published...I wonder what was the format of these first 1939 meetings with the BB.s

Any additional insight will be appreciated

| 10665|10664|2015-05-18 15:20:32|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Format and scope of AA Meetings 1935-39 in Akron and NY|
AKRON:

Glenn Chesnut, AA and Oxford Group meetings in Akron and Cleveland: 1938-1942  A short description of how the earliest AA meetings were conducted in these two cities, drawn from Mitchell K.'s How It Worked (containing Clarence Snyder's accounts of early AA life), J.D. Holmes' reminiscences in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers and in his memoirs in the New York Archives (there are copies of these memoirs also in various Indiana state AA archives), and in the 1942 Akron Manual. This talk was given by Glenn Chesnut as part of a panel discussion at the Sedona Mago AA History Symposium in Sedona, Arizona, February 21-23, 2014:

http://hindsfoot.org/akronmeet.doc

Glenn F. Chesnut, AA meetings in Akron and Cleveland in 1938-1942: their use of Oxford Group practices, Emmet Fox, and The Upper Room  A longer description of how AA meetings were held during that period, with more detailed accounts of what they drew from Emmet Fox's writings and from the daily meditations in The Upper Room:

http://hindsfoot.org/akronmeet2.doc

Please note that the weekly meeting at T. Henry and Clarace Williams' house was NOT an A.A.  meeting. It was an Oxford group meeting, and many of the people present were not alcoholics.

But from 1935 to 1939, the alcoholics were expected to show up at least once a day, either in the morning or evening at Dr. Bob's house, or during the day at Dr. Bob's office, to talk about how they were doing.

The morning gathering every day at Dr. Bob and Anne's house centered on reading aloud the meditation for the day from The Upper Room and then discussing its spiritual message, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/protlib.html

Akron AA finally broke with the Oxford Group and quit going once a week to the non-alcoholic Oxford Group meeting at the Williams' house, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.doc

OR:  http://hindsfoot.org/aacaths.pdf

Please read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers for more information.

.......................................................

NEW YORK:

Bill and Lois Wilson also began by taking the alcoholics they were working with once a week to the non-alcoholic Oxford Group meeting in New York City. Then they would work throughout the week with these recovering alcoholics in their own home.

Not much different from Akron, in terms of the basic pattern.

But in 1937, Bill and Lois and the alcoholics they were working with were basically just kicked out of the New York City Oxford Group meeting.

Please read Pass It On for more information.

 
| 10666|10666|2015-05-20 13:46:00|cugjp1|Richard Peabody|
Can someone tell me who pointed Bill to the "Common Sense of Drinking"? Was it Rowland? Silky? Ebby? Could he have read that book before he went into the hospital? Do we know if Ebby read it before he talked to Bill?

George P



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
| 10667|10661|2015-05-20 13:50:24|suddenturtle|Re: Big Book divine in nature|

Bill Wilson may provide some answers in the book Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (AACA), which he authored.

 

In AACA Bill says that by early 1938 some of the fellowship felt the need for a book and the decision was made to produce a book. Bill was to be the author of the book and by the fall of 1938 Bill had completed writing four chapters with the titles "Bill's Story" "There is a Solution" "More About Alcoholism" and "We Agnostics." In AACA, on page 159, Bill says:

 

"It was now realized that we had enough background and window-dressing material and that at this point we would have to tell how our program for recovery from alcoholism really worked. The backbone of the book would have to be fitted in right here." 

 

On pages 160-161 of AACA, Bill describes how he wrote the 12 Steps. Bill says that on one afternoon in fall 1938: 

 

"I lay in bed at 182 Clinton Street with pencil in hand and with a tablet of scratch paper on my knee. I could not get my mind on the job, much less put my heart into it. But here was one of those things that had to be done. Slowly my mind came into some kind of focus. Since Ebby's visit to me in the fall of 1934 we had gradually evolved what we called "the word-of-mouth program." Most of the basic ideas had come from the Oxford Groups, Williams James, and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent procedure which comprised six steps." 

 

Bill says that after reflecting on these developments between the fall of 1934 and the fall of 1938, he decided he wanted to write more than 6 steps, and didn't really want to document the 6 step program that the fellowship was actually using at the time.

 

"Finally I started to write. I set out to draft more than six steps; how many I did not know. I relaxed and asked for guidance. With a speed that was astonishing, considering my jangling emotions, I completed the first draft. It took perhaps half an hour." 

 

Bill seems to be claiming that the 12 Steps were divinely inspired (i.e. "guidance" in the Oxford Groups practices of the time was listening for God’s voice) and God led him to write the 12 Step program. Bill says:

 

"When I reached a stopping point, I numbered the new steps. They added up to twelve. Somehow this number seemed significant. Without any special rhyme or reason I connected them with the twelve apostles.”

 

Surprise, surprise.  12 steps, 12 apostles. I think a point can be made that Bill was intentionally looking for the religious symbolism of the number 12  when he decided on writing a new 12 Step program, instead of documenting the original 6 Step program that the two fellowship groups in New York and Akron were actually using between 1934 and 1938. 


In subsequent years, Bill intentionally cultivated and promoted the idea that the 12 Steps were divinely inspired by God's "guidance" to Bill on that fall day in 1938.

 

Another factor at play in the time period of 1938 and 1939 is that the early members did not understand alcoholism (addiction to alcohol) and what was really keeping them sobe