11089|11080|2016-01-02 12:34:10|AAHistoryLovers|Re: June 10th or June 17th founding date?|
HOW FAST DID RAILROAD TRAINS GO IN 1935?

From: barney52278 (rowevan at centurylink.net)

I guess these calculation assume Dr Bob took a bullet train from NJ to Akron.  I am old enough to Remember when passenger train service was normal. Two to three days would have been more appropriate for the NJ/OH trip.

| 11090|11080|2016-01-02 12:45:18|Glenn Chesnut|Re: June 10th or June 17th founding date?|
HOW FAST DID RAILROAD TRAINS GO IN 1935?

Google Maps says that the journey by rail from Atlantic City, New Jersey to Akron, Ohio only takes 21 hours and 20 minutes nowadays, most of it on the Amtrak Capitol Limited (which is most definitely NOT a bullet train). The extra time is necessary because you have to go from Atlantic City to a bigger city like New York City or Philadelphia, then change trains to get to Ohio.

In 1935, there were many more passenger trains running, so you could probably have done it much more quickly.

It's only around 480 miles by automobile, which Google Maps estimates as taking only 7 hours or so to drive.

Your proposal that it took three days (72 hours) to travel 480 miles? That would imply an average speed of less than 7 miles per hour, which is not much faster than a brisk 5 mph walking speed.

But can somebody with access to old railroad schedules tell us how long it would actually have taken Dr. Bob to make the trip from Atlantic City back to the Akron vicinity in June 1935?

| 11091|11091|2016-01-02 12:51:17|Arthur S|Did the Actual "founding" of AA occur from May/June 1935 or Nov/Dec |
Did the Actual “founding” of AA occur from May/June 1935 or Nov/Dec 1934?

The June 10/17, 1935 dates cited as the founding of AA are, in my judgment, rather dubious. If you use a first-introduction date between Bill W and Dr Bob of May 12, 1935 as the start of AA then things get even more convoluted on who to consider AA’s co-founders. Was it Ebby T and Bill W in 1934 or Bill W and Dr Bob in 1935? As I delved more and more into AA history over the past 15 years, I’ve come to a personal conclusion that Bill W and the early AA pioneers were revisionist in marking June 10, 1935 as AA’s “birthday” and were also around 8 months off the mark.

Bill W always referred to Ebby T as his “sponsor” and chronicled Ebby’s Nov/Dec 1934 visits to his home and Towns Hospital as the central part of his finding sobriety. Roughly half of the pages of “Bill’s Story” describe those visits. Bill wrote that Ebby “… In a matter of fact way … told how two men had appeared in court, persuading the judge to suspend his commitment. They had told of a simple religious idea and a practical program of action. That was two months ago and the result was self-evident. It worked! He had come to pass his experience along to me if I cared to have it ...”

Bill later described what Ebby passed on to him in a May 1949 paper presented to the American Psychiatric Association titled “The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous.”  Bill wrote: “… The Twelve Steps … are little but an amplified and streamlined version of the principles enumerated by my friend of the kitchen table ...” Bill further noted: “… Ebby, my friend of the kitchen table … took little interest in … other alcoholics. This … may have caused his endless backslides later on … I had found that working with alcoholics had a huge bearing on my own sobriety ...” (note: the identification of Ebby has been eliminated from the current reprint of the paper contained in AAWS pamphlet P-6 “Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W”).

In “AA Comes of Age” (64) Bill gives a detailed description of what occurred in Towns Hospital in December 1934. He wrote: “… Ebby … brought me a copy of William James‘ book “The Varieties of Religious Experience.” It was … difficult reading … but I devoured it … Spiritual experiences, James thought, could … transform people. Some were sudden … others came … very gradually … But nearly all had the great common denominator of … Deflation at depth … that had happened to me … “ Bill further noted: “… Dr Carl Jung told an Oxford Group friend of Ebby's how hopeless his alcoholism was and Dr Silkworth passed the same sentence upon me … Ebby, also an alcoholic, handed me the identical dose. On Dr Silkworth's say-so alone ... I would never have completely accepted the verdict, but when Ebby came along and one alcoholic began to talk to another, that clinched it ...”

Bill finally wrote: “… I envisioned a chain reaction among alcoholics, one carrying this message and these principles to the next. More than I could ever want anything else, I now knew that I wanted to work with other alcoholics. As soon as I was discharged from the hospital, I associated myself with the Oxford Group. We worked at … Calvary Mission and also at Towns Hospital ...”

Bill’s discharge date was December 18, 1934. He and his wife Lois, Ebby and Shep C attended Oxford Group meetings at Calvary Hall in Calvary House. After the meetings, Bill and other OG alcoholics, including Rowland H and Ebby, met at Stewarts Cafeteria for fellowship. Alcoholic OG members also began meeting at Bill’s home (this seems like a “group” to me).

Ebby has an awkward place in AA history. In a way it’s a case that he’s there but treated like he’s not there and forgotten. Rowland Hazard, who couldn’t stay sober, is called by Bill W “… the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous ...” But Ebby doesn’t even rise to the level of link number 2 or 3 or 4.

Why is Bill W’s visit with Dr Bob in mid-1935 considered the founding of AA as opposed to Ebby’s visits with Bill in late 1934? Why is the July 4, 1935 hospital discharge date of Bill D, considered the founding of AA’s first group and not the hospital discharge date of Bill W on Dec 18, 1934? And why is Bill D considered AA #3 and Ernie G, who couldn’t stay sober, considered AA #4. Three members preceded them both - Ebby, Bill and Dr Bob in that order. Ebby doesn’t even get a token AA #1 or AA #2 in New York. Hank P, who couldn’t stay sober, and Fitz M are usually called AA #1 and #2 in NY.

Ebby certainly deserves a respected place in AA history. He was AA’s first sponsor and the first member to carry a message to a still-suffering alcoholic (Bill W). Ebby, in Bill’s own words, gave him a practical program of action that worked. Bill called it “Ebby's formula.” Today we call it the “Twelve Steps.”

With some apprehension, Lois W wrote in her biography “Lois Remembers” stating “… I feel disloyal in writing these notes about Ebby, but it is important that future generations of AA’s know why Ebby was never considered a founder of AA …“ She listed 4 reasons: [1] Bill wanted sobriety with his whole soul, Ebby appeared to want just enough to stay out of trouble. [2] Beyond his visit with Bill, Ebby seemed to do little about helping others. He never appeared to be an active member of AA. [3] After his first slip, harmful thoughts seemed to possess him. He appeared jealous of Bill and critical, even when sober, of both the Oxford Group and AA. [4] Ebby carried a message to Bill, but never followed up with the action to help AA grow in its infancy ...“

I find Lois’ 4-point rationalization troubling despite what a wonderful historian she was. In terms of whether or not Ebby should be considered a founder of AA, what he did for Bill W prior to Bill sobering up is far more compelling and relevant than what Ebby failed to do for himself after Bill W sobered up.

I think it is important to historically note that the Akron meeting between Bill W and Dr Bob in 1935 would never have happened were it not because of a New York meeting between Bill and Ebby in 1934.

That’s my 2-cents on AA founding dates.

Cheers and happy new year

Arthur

| 11092|11092|2016-01-02 14:00:08|kspillaert|A Plea for Information About Dorothy H-E|

Hello, I am the archivist for Brighton Area Intergroup UK. I have been researching the early history of the fellowship in my area and am very interested in Dorothy H-E who is regarded as having made the first British 12th-Step Call in the Spring of 1946.


See details here: http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/About-AA/Archives/Timeline/1945-~-1952


Dorothy was, it seems, an expatriate American and acted as the London contact for the NYC Alcoholic Foundation from January to October 1946, when she returned to the States. She entertained visiting North American members to tea in her London home and corresponded with early prospective British members.


In the archives of the AA General Service Board Great Britain Ltd in York there is a series of encouraging letters from the Foundation's secretary Bobbie B to Dorothy (which I take to be photocopies of the NYC file copies). I have seen only one of these: the 21st March '46 letter referring to the 12th-Step Call.


Dottie B hoped that Dorothy's various meetings would be the seed of the first English group (and she might indeed have been involved in the first formal AA meeting in England that we know happened some time in 1946 - any further details of which have gone unrecorded).


So, all in all, an important woman in early AA history.


Perhaps someone out there knows some more about her?


With very best wishes for a serene and sober New Year

Tom S

 

| 11093|11093|2016-01-02 15:06:04|AAHistoryLovers|Four years or six since Dr. Bob's last drink?|
From: paddymur (paddymur at yahoo.com)

On this same subject as to exact dates of our beginnings (June 10th or 17th) ... my Big Book is a second edition, seventh printing  On page 180 (Dr. Bob's Nightmare)  first paragraph, it says: "That was June 10th 1935 and that was my last drink. As I write nearly six years have passed."

I also have a First Edition; twelfth printing with the same wording. 

Six years????? I notice in the third editions it's changed to 'four years'. One more example of their inconsistency. Where did Dr. Bob get the 'six years' ?

Patrick Murphy
Cedar Rapids, Iowa

| 11094|11080|2016-01-02 15:12:04|AAHistoryLovers|Re: June 10th or June 17th founding date?|
From: cugjp1 (cugjp1 at yahoo.com)

I think it is an important part of AA history that AA was not founded until AA #2 (Dr bob) made amends. 

| 11095|11095|2016-01-02 15:12:18|AAHistoryLovers|June or May founding date? Lois' letter|
From: kochbrian2249 (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

All,

First of all, blessed holidays.  I am going to jump in on this subject.  Anniversaries are wonderful indeed.  The date January 15th, 2007 means a great deal to me as it is the specific date of my sobriety.  I live life one day at a time, and during the course of the year I am truly grateful to be sober that day, but as I draw near to that amazing miraculous date, I look forward to celebrating then.  Much the way we celebrate wedding anniversaries and birthdays on the actual date those events took place.  They are documented dates, and we honor those events on those dates.

Accuracy regarding history, and for us, the history of AA, is paramount to anyone who researches and studies the subject.  If at all possible the actual dates, events, persons involved, are to be accurate, as has been stated by many of my colleagues.  That said I wonder what actually defines the "birthdate" of our program.  As has been stated and chronicled numerous times, there was no "Alcoholics Anonymous"  until the Big Book was actually printed and released. Prior to that it was a band or group of drunks operating under the auspices of The Oxford Group. "The fledgling society, which had been nameless, now began to be called Alcoholics Anonymous, from the title of it's own book" -Big Book, 4th Edition, page xvii. So why not a date in 1939?  

To me, a date in May of 1935 rings more true, if an actual date can be determined.  In a letter to Lois, Bill wrote:

“I am writing this in the office of one of my new friends, Dr. Smith. He had my trouble and is getting to be a very ardent Grouper. I have been to his house for meals and the rest of the family is as nice as he is. I have witnessed at a number of meetings and have been taken to a number of people. Dr. Smith is helping me to change a Dr. McKay, once the most prominent surgeon in town, who developed into a terrific rake and drunk. He was rich, lost everything, wife committed suicide, he is ostracized and on the point of suicide himself. His change if accomplished would be a most powerful witness to the whole town as his case is so notorious.”

At this point Bill and Dr. Bob are both sober and attempting to help another alcoholic. Isn't that what AA truly is?  They were both sober and attempting to help another person.  I have seen a typed rendition of this letter, and I believe there is some reference to the date on the heading.  It may just say May 1935, and doesn't reveal the actual date the two men tried to help Dr. Roy Haymon McKay.  It obviously would have had to be between May 12th and the date of the letter (if it is known).

Again, my two cents as to what would be considered the actual anniversary of AA.

Blessings,

Brian K

| 11096|11096|2016-01-02 17:12:11|AAHistoryLovers|Symposium on A.A. History early bird registration|
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"In Their Own Words"; The Recovery of People of Color & LGBT in Early A.A.
June, 1945, Bill Wilson Leaves A.A. for a Real Job; Now What Happens?
Lois Wilson, Her Legacy at Stepping Stones
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Persistent Urban Legends in A.A.
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| 11097|11080|2016-01-04 10:28:31|James Bliss|Re: June 10th or June 17th founding date?|
There is an interesting site at http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track3/capitolltd194106.html which provides some train schedules.  They are a little difficult to go through but it appears the 'Capital Limited' would have been a primary train in a trip from Akron to Atlantic City in the late 1930s (curious that the line still exists on the Amtrak schedule but was much quicker - possibly fewer stops).  Although the trip would only get you to Plainfield, Elizabeth or Jersey City, NJ.  You would then have to take another train on the Atlantic City.

The schedule 6 would be the one to look at (right column of the schedule).  A traveler would get on the train in Akron at 11:29 PM and arrive in Jersey City at 1:17 PM (approximately 14 hours).  Perhaps there would be a train from Plainfield to Atlantic City to take about 30 minutes off of this first leg.

Then there would have to be a train from Jersey City, or another city in New Jersey to Atlantic City.  Assuming a quick transfer and then a straight trip to Atlantic City, that might have been accomplished in 3 hours or so (plus wait time for train).  Since trains were a primary means of transportation at that time, the trip from several major terminals in Jersey City to Atlantic City could be running several times a day, with a potential for an express.  But I could not find any schedules for those 'short run' trains.  Perhaps the route would have been Plainfield, Elizabeth or Jersey City to Camden/Philadelphia and then to Atlantic City.  There were several trains a day from Philadelphia to Atlantic City.

Overall the trip would come in close to the current trip which Glenn references below.  Possibly a little quicker, but not significantly.

There are some quicker trains but they do not stop in Akron (Cleveland maybe).  But it appears to be a rather tedious trip regardless, but definitely not 3 days.

It must have been an interesting experience to plan trips back then.  It was dangerous though.  My Grand Father was a train conductor and was killed in a train related incident on the job in the late 1920s.

Jim


On 1/2/2016 2:38 PM, Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
 
HOW FAST DID RAILROAD TRAINS GO IN 1935?

Google Maps says that the journey by rail from Atlantic City, New Jersey to Akron, Ohio only takes 21 hours and 20 minutes nowadays, most of it on the Amtrak Capitol Limited (which is most definitely NOT a bullet train). The extra time is necessary because you have to go from Atlantic City to a bigger city like New York City or Philadelphia, then change trains to get to Ohio.

In 1935, there were many more passenger trains running, so you could probably have done it much more quickly.

It's only around 480 miles by automobile, which Google Maps estimates as taking only 7 hours or so to drive.

Your proposal that it took three days (72 hours) to travel 480 miles? That would imply an average speed of less than 7 miles per hour, which is not much faster than a brisk 5 mph walking speed.

But can somebody with access to old railroad schedules tell us how long it would actually have taken Dr. Bob to make the trip from Atlantic City back to the Akron vicinity in June 1935?


| 11098|11095|2016-01-05 09:50:51|Arthur S|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter|

Brian, I don’t believe your posting holds up under scrutiny. Dr Bob was not drinking after mid-May 1935 but did not sober up (i.e. have his last drink) until mid-June 1935. It makes no difference whether or not if he was trying to help another alcoholic.

 

For that matter, in terms of attempting to help another alcoholic, Ebby did that with Bill W in Nov/Dec 1934 and became Bill’s sponsor well before Bill met Dr Bob. Ebby and Bill (both sober) actively participated in helping other alcoholics at the Calvary Rescue Mission and  Towns Hospital and in meetings held at Bill’s home (where Ebby also lived on and off at the time). This was almost 5 months prior to Bill first meeting Dr Bob.

 

Akron was directly affiliated with the Oxford Group up to October 1939. NY broke away in April 1937 (the month Ebby started drinking again)

 

Page xvii in the Big Book is revisionist in a number of its assertions (I didn’t get struck by lightning after typing that). Bill W and others used the term “Alcoholics Anonymous” well prior to publication of the Big Book in April 1939.

 

1938 - June (possibly April/May from GSO Archives) Bill W wrote to Dr Bob (edited): “… l have … dictated … two chapters of the proposed book … an introduction and … my own story … By the way, you might all be thinking up a good title. Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume ‘Alcoholics Anonymous’ … What would you think about the formation of a charitable corporation to be called … ‘Alcoholics Anonymous’? Money coming in from the book could be handled through it as well as any funds arising from contributions by corporations benefited by our work. …”

 

1938 - June 15, recollection of the first use of the term “Alcoholics Anonymous” by Lois W”( in “Lois Remembers”).

 

1938 - June 24, Frank Amos wrote to Albert L Scott: (edited): “After … securing … advice … including two writers of national reputation, they have decided to bring out a book … The idea is for the book not to bear the name of any author but to be by ‘Alcoholics Anonymous’ …” Hank P’s outline for the book gives it the title “Alcoholics Anonymous.”

 

1938 - July 15, in a letter to Messrs. Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation, Bill W invited them to his home on Clinton St for meetings of “Alcoholics Anonymous.”

 

1938 - July 18, Dr Esther L Richards of Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, stated in a letter that Bill W, at that time, was using the name “Alcoholics Anonymous” both as the working title of the book and the name of the Fellowship.

 

So what is accurate and what isn’t? There are quite a number of contradicting assertion in the written record of AA history and many stem from Bill W. I believe this was due solely to honest memory errors and not any attempt at all of deception.

 

Cheers

Arthur

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2016 5:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] June or May founding date? Lois' letter

 

 

From: kochbrian2249 <kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

 

All,

 

First of all, blessed holidays.  I am going to jump in on this subject.  Anniversaries are wonderful indeed.  The date January 15th, 2007 means a great deal to me as it is the specific date of my sobriety.  I live life one day at a time, and during the course of the year I am truly grateful to be sober that day, but as I draw near to that amazing miraculous date, I look forward to celebrating then.  Much the way we celebrate wedding anniversaries and birthdays on the actual date those events took place.  They are documented dates, and we honor those events on those dates.

 

Accuracy regarding history, and for us, the history of AA, is paramount to anyone who researches and studies the subject.  If at all possible the actual dates, events, persons involved, are to be accurate, as has been stated by many of my colleagues.  That said I wonder what actually defines the "birthdate" of our program.  As has been stated and chronicled numerous times, there was no "Alcoholics Anonymous"  until the Big Book was actually printed and released. Prior to that it was a band or group of drunks operating under the auspices of The Oxford Group. "The fledgling society, which had been nameless, now began to be called Alcoholics Anonymous, from the title of it's own book" -Big Book, 4th Edition, page xvii. So why not a date in 1939?  

 

To me, a date in May of 1935 rings more true, if an actual date can be determined.  In a letter to Lois, Bill wrote:

 

“I am writing this in the office of one of my new friends, Dr. Smith. He had my trouble and is getting to be a very ardent Grouper. I have been to his house for meals and the rest of the family is as nice as he is. I have witnessed at a number of meetings and have been taken to a number of people. Dr. Smith is helping me to change a Dr. McKay, once the most prominent surgeon in town, who developed into a terrific rake and drunk. He was rich, lost everything, wife committed suicide, he is ostracized and on the point of suicide himself. His change if accomplished would be a most powerful witness to the whole town as his case is so notorious.”

 

At this point Bill and Dr. Bob are both sober and attempting to help another alcoholic. Isn't that what AA truly is?  They were both sober and attempting to help another person.  I have seen a typed rendition of this letter, and I believe there is some reference to the date on the heading.  It may just say May 1935, and doesn't reveal the actual date the two men tried to help Dr. Roy Haymon McKay.  It obviously would have had to be between May 12th and the date of the letter (if it is known).

 

Again, my two cents as to what would be considered the actual anniversary of AA.

 

Blessings,

 

Brian K

 

| 11099|11095|2016-01-06 09:40:55|John Barton|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter|
Good Morning Arthur,


Hope you are well?


In you reposnse to Brian you indicate that NY broke with the Oxford group in April of 37 when Ebby startred drinking again. I'm clear on the Ebby date but not the break with the Oxford Group which most info to date seems to put the event in the August/September time period. I realize the existing info is a little sketchy but can you provide some background on your assertion of April as the time frame?


Warm Regards,


John B.
| 11100|11100|2016-01-07 09:59:47|Arthur S|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)|

Thank you John B for flagging my error. I impulsively added that April 1937 sentence right before I hit the send button (ooops!).

The info I have in my timeline document is:

1937 - April (LR-197 says May), Ebby T got drunk after two years and seven months sobriety. It began an on-again, off-again pattern of drinking and sobriety that would stay with Ebby. (EBBY 77, BW-FH 63, PIO 177)

1937 - August, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings and the NY AAs separated from the OG. This was the beginning of AA separating itself from outside affiliation and set the groundwork for what would later become Tradition Six. The Akron group remained affiliated with the OG for two more years. (LR 197, AACOA vii, 74-76)

Thanks again John - hope to see you in Sedona

Cheers

Arthur

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 6:32 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Arthur S ; Bill Schaberg
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] June or May founding date? Lois' letter

Good Morning Arthur,

Hope you are well?

In you reposnse to Brian you indicate that NY broke with the Oxford group in April of 37 when Ebby startred drinking again. I'm clear on the Ebby date but not the break with the Oxford Group which most info to date seems to put the event in the August/September time period. I realize the existing info is a little sketchy but can you provide some background on your assertion of April as the time frame?

Warm Regards,

John B.

| 11101|11101|2016-01-08 13:01:33|AAHistoryLovers|Chapter to Wives: written by Marie B?|
From: Vicki Edwards vicki2b (rnroadtrip at gmail.com)

I’m curious on the writing of the chapter to wives in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. It states in Sr. Ignacia pg 122 that this stirred up a controversy between Akron and New York as Akron stated that Marie B. (Walter B’s wife) wrote the chapter. The manuscript is supposedly in Akron.  I know her story is found in the 1st ed, but I’m pretty sure her story and the writing of the chapter to wives are entirely different pieces of work. Does anyone have some insight on the writing of the chapter to wives and the manuscript?
 
Vicki Edwards
Deltona, Florida

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

FROM THE MODERATOR:

Mary C. Darrah, Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, p. 128-129

===================================
Anne's work with early AA wives was so effective that in 1938 dur-
ing the preparation of the manuscript for Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill
Wilson wrote these words to Dr. Bob:

>> My own feeling is that Anne should do the one (chapter] por-
traying the wife of an alcoholic.14

Anne, however, declined the honor, possibly in deference to the
feelings of Bill's nonalcoholic wife, Lois. In fact, a comparison of the
Akron and New York records shows a discrepancy as to the actual au-
thorship of the chapter To Wives."

Akron records state that the chapter was written by Akron's
Marie B., wife of Walter B., who first joined the fellowship in Sep-
tember 1935. (Later, Walter relapsed and became the first officially
registered alcoholic patient whom Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia hospital-
ized at St. Thomas in August 1939.) However, of the chapter's actual
authorship Lois recalled:

>> Bill wrote it and I was mad. I wasn't so much mad as hurt. I
still don't know why Bill wrote it. I've never really gotten into
it—why he insisted upon writing it. I said to him, "Well, do
you want me to write it?" And he said no, he thought it should
be in the same style as the rest of the book.15

Bill found himself in a dilemma over the authorship of "To Wives"
for three reasons: his suggestion to Dr. Bob that Anne write the chap-
ter; his own wife's strong feelings that she should write it; and the sen-
sitive relationships between Akronites and New Yorkers that arose
during the writing of the book. He attempted to cover all the bases by
accepting Marie B.'s version. This he revised for the obvious reason
explained to Lois—that the finished book needed continuity in his
own literary style and form. His explanation seemed to solve AA's
problems and salved the hurt feelings at home.
===================================


| 11102|11100|2016-01-08 13:09:20|AAHistoryLovers|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)|
From: Shakey Mike Gwirtz =
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

 For the newer members, LR is "Lois Remembers" by Lois W.

It is not conference approved literature. It is Al-Anon literature. On page197 it says, "We stop going to Oxford Group meetings." I take that to mean what it says, that Bill and Lois W. stop going to meetings. Not that everyone at the N Y mother group stopped too. In LR OG 103 it says at the bottom of the page "But in the summer of 1937 Bill and I stopped going to OG meetings. "

In AACOA(AA Comes of Age), pg. vii says, (On the eighth comment down) as "1937, New York's AA's separate from Oxford Groups "(OG) Is there some document to substantiate this? 

In Lois Remembers, she says they left the OG and were "a nameless band of drunks." She then discussed Joe W and the nome for the Big Book .

If I remember what Nell Wing told us about Lois's diary ( which was left to Nell) and the book "Motorcycle Hobos" written by Ellie V. H.,Wife of Bill P., the diary was lent out and not freely returned. I remember something about the book being recalled and not for sale. Can someone elaborate on this that knows more than I.

Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz
NAAAW in San Fran this year. Hope to see you all there.


| 11103|11103|2016-01-08 13:12:49|AAHistoryLovers|How fast did railroads run in 1935?|
From: Shakey Mike Gwirtz =
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

HOW LONG WOULD IT HAVE TAKEN FOR DR. BOB TO GO FROM ATLANTIC CITY, NEW JERSEY TO AKRON, OHIO IN 1935?

http://www.american-rails.com/akronite.html

<>

The Akronite timetable as of 1956:

7:20 pm Akron, OH
7:30 pm Cuyahoga Falls, OH
....
9:17 pm Youngstown, OH
....
11:04 pm Pittsburgh, PA
....
6:15 am Philadelphia, PA
6:49 am Trenton, NJ
....
7:55 am New York, NY
____________

13 hours TOTAL

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

SPEED TRAINS OF NORTH AMERICA
quoted from
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r016.html

=================================
[The U.S. experienced] in the year 1935, the most remarkable wave of railway acceleration on record. Many different parts of the United States are affected by these vigorous speedings-up, and the indications are that they represent but the beginning of a speed programme which will become yet more revolutionary as time proceeds.

[American railways in 1935 however still tended to be slower than British railways.] Not only do the vast majority of American roads cross the railways on the level, but there are also innumerable places where the railways cross one another on the level instead of by over-bridge or under-bridge. Many of these crossings require reductions of speed to sixty or fifty miles an hour. The great freight yards outside American cities have often to be threaded by passenger trains at very low speeds. Even worse handicaps are presented by the lines through such cities as Syracuse, where the busy main line of the New York Central from New York to Chicago is carried up the main street for a mile, to the "depot," or station, with the trains travelling at no more than fifteen miles an hour, and the engines mournfully tolling their great bells to warn street traffic to keep clear. Millions of dollars are being expended by the New York Central Lines to remove this anachronism by raising the line to viaduct level.

THE "TWENTIETH CENTURY LIMITED" at speed, along the shores of the River Hudson, from which the standard "Hudson" (4-6-4) type locomotive at the head of the train takes its name. The time of this express has now been reduced to seventeen hours for the distance of 958.7 miles between New York and Chicago, and involves an average speed of 56.4 m.p.h. throughout, including all stops and speed restrictions. The weight of the train frequently exceeds 1,000 tons behind the tender.

For many years the two crack competing expresses between New York and Chicago have been the "Twentieth Century Limited" of the New York Central, and the "Broadway Limited" of the Pennsylvania, composed exclusively of luxurious Pullman cars. For the special amenities of these flyers, in addition to the fare and Pullman supplement, a "service charge" is made, which in 1935 was reduced from ten to seven and a half dollars.

Twenty hours was for many years the running time of the "Broadway" and the "Century," except during a brief period when a schedule of eighteen hours was tried. But it proved too exacting for the engines of the day, and after a disastrous accident to one of the trains it was abandoned. In 1932, however, the eighteen-hours schedule reappeared. In 1933 fifteen minutes were cut from it ; and in 1935 the bold step was taken of accelerating both the "Twentieth Century Limited" and the "Broadway Limited" to a seventeen-hours run. This means an overall speed, including every stop, of 56.4 miles per hour by the New York Central route, and of 53 miles per hour by the Pennsylvania, for a journey of nearly a thousand miles.
=================================


| 11104|11104|2016-01-09 12:06:14|lookwhosdunn|Joe and Charlie tapes|

Does anyone know if the Joe and Charlie big book tapes have been transcribed into a written version?  If the answer is yes, how are copies obtained.



Thank You

A brother in recovery,

John


| 11105|11080|2016-01-09 12:07:39|AAHistoryLovers|Re: June 10th or June 17th founding date?|
From jimincancun, John French, iveyjames1, 
Shakey Mike Gwirtz, and maureenlkerrigan1

.......................................................
From: (jimincancun at gmail.com)

What is the logic behind saying that AA was not founded until Dr. BOB made amends?

.......................................................
From: John French = johnf20878 
(johnff at gmail.com)

How is this for a comparison to the June 12/17 disagreement... Would it really matter if there were evidence that Jesus Christ had been born on another date than December 25th? Would that distinction per se in any way affect the spirit of celebration? Yes, there is evidence that seriously calls into question the exact date of the founding of AA, both in the facts use to determine it (e.g., the day Bob had his last drink, or the day Ebby did something) and in the exact day that Bob had his last drink, but there is good common sense justification to let things be as they are. Or maybe we should change Christmas to the last Sunday of December :-) 
John French

.......................................................
From: Janes from Dallas =  
(iveyjames1 at sbcglobal.net)

wrote "I think it is an important part of AA history that AA was not founded until AA #2 (Dr bob) made amends."
Here, Here!  I'll drink to that! wait.... lol
1. Admission, 2. Surrender, 3. Confession, 4. Restitution, 5. Continuance
"A.A. was founded" when the 2nd guy (Dr. Bob) worked the steps?
2 cents from Dallas. -- James

.......................................................
From: Shakey Mike Gwirtz 
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Doesn't it say that he was drunk when he got off the train? Then he stayed with his nurse and her husband a couple days while he sobered up? I seem to remember that. Can someone elaborate?

Btw, aren't trains faster now than in 1935? Less of them and high speed now ? Or am I mistaken here also?

I'm Trying to be rigorously honest a day at a time, in a rigorously honest program ?
YIS,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

.......................................................
From: (maureenlkerrigan1 at gmail.com)

I always loved what I understood was that AA based its founding date on when Dr. Bob had his last drink cause that's when it showed that  AA can work and how it works is one alcoholic helping another. That was June 10. http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/aa-timeline

| 11106|11100|2016-01-09 12:09:16|Arthur S|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)|

I think it reasonable to posit that most (if not all) the NY members departed from the OG when Bill and Lois stopped attending OG meetings at Calvary Hall. The total NY member population was not very large at this time. Bill was also having meetings at his home which included alcoholic OG members. In the spring of 1937, leaders of the OG in NYC ordered alcoholics staying at the Calvary Rescue Mission not to attend these meetings.

In AA Comes of Age Bill writes:

Pg 74 “… Until the middle of 1937 we in New York had been working alongside the Oxford Groups. But in the latter part of that year we most reluctantly parted company with these great friends.

Pg 76:” … It was not until later, and well after the A.A. book was published, that our Akron members withdrew from the Oxford Groups and finally from the home which had sheltered them so well.

Pg 160-161:” …This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling newcomers … In important matters there was still considerable disagreement between the Eastern and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were still active Oxford Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year before. In Akron and vicinity, they still talked about the Oxford Groups’ absolutes: absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. This dose was found to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we had abandoned the expressions …”

Pg 165: “… After we New Yorkers had left the Oxford Groups in 1937 we often described ourselves as a “nameless bunch of alcoholics.” From this phrase it was only a step to the idea of ‘Alcoholics Anonymous.’ This was its actual derivation ...”

The Diary of Two Motor Hobos was written by Lois W. Ellie van V edited it.

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2016 3:05 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)

 

 

From: Shakey Mike Gwirtz =

<Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

 

 For the newer members, LR is "Lois Remembers" by Lois W. Ellie van V edited it.

 

It is not conference approved literature. It is Al-Anon literature. On page197 it says, "We stop going to Oxford Group meetings." I take that to mean what it says, that Bill and Lois W. stop going to meetings. Not that everyone at the N Y mother group stopped too. In LR OG 103 it says at the bottom of the page "But in the summer of 1937 Bill and I stopped going to OG meetings. "

 

In AACOA(AA Comes of Age), pg. vii says, (On the eighth comment down) as "1937, New York's AA's separate from Oxford Groups "(OG) Is there some document to substantiate this? 

 

In Lois Remembers, she says they left the OG and were "a nameless band of drunks." She then discussed Joe W and the nome for the Big Book .

 

If I remember what Nell Wing told us about Lois's diary ( which was left to Nell) and the book "Motorcycle Hobos" written by Ellie V. H.,Wife of Bill P., the diary was lent out and not freely returned. I remember something about the book being recalled and not for sale. Can someone elaborate on this that knows more than I.

 

Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz

NAAAW in San Fran this year. Hope to see you all there.

 

 

| 11107|10921|2016-01-09 14:18:10|Jay Moore|Re: Jay D. Moore, AA and the Rockefeller Connection|

Hi all at History lovers

 

Just a follow up note that the Rockefeller book is now available in ebook format!

 

Also on Amazon but more expensive that Lulu

 

Jay Moore

 

Editor, El Farolito

505-503-1907

Service is what we do between meetings!

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 2:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jay D. Moore, AA and the Rockefeller Connection

 

 

I want to thank Glenn for posting this. The edition he was speaking about was produced for the NAAAW in October.

 

The final edition is now available at http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/AA_Rockefeller

 

The story covers the entire relationship between AA, John D Rockefeller Jr and his associates and AA. I detail the initial $5,000 contribution and the myth that Rockefeller turned down $50,000 because “Money will spoil this thing.” Also the myth that Dr Bob was sent $3,000 and paid off his mortgage.

 

The book covers the dinner including a full list of those who attended and those invited and who they were. Contributions are also listed. I cover the buy-back of the Works Publishing stock and the fact that without the Rockefellers it never happens.

 

The Rockefeller Associates were involved with AA into the 1960’s and their contribution is remarkable.

 

I researched the book through the Rockefeller Archives in NY and full access to the GSO Archives.

 

Jay Moore

Albuquerque, NM

 

 

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:22 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jay D. Moore, AA and the Rockefeller Connection

 

 

Sent to me by Indiana Area 22 archivist Bruce C. from Muncie, Indiana 

<brucec55@sbcglobal.net> (brucec55 at sbcglobal.net)

 

NEW BOOK BY Jay D. Moore, Alcoholics Anonymous and the Rockefeller Connection: How John D. Rockefeller, Jr. and His Associates Saved AA

 

"This is the story of the relationship between Alcoholics Anonymous, John D. Rockefeller, Jr. and his associates. Starting with an initial $5,000 donation, followed by the Rockefeller Dinner in 1941 that helped raise awareness of A.A. to the formation of the Alcoholic Foundation Rockefeller and his associates were critical to the survival and growth of early Alcoholics Anonymous. It becomes a remarkable story once the paths of first two, and then the three of them cross. It becomes the story of a movement that is one of the great phenomenon’s of the Twentieth Century. Anyone who believes that a small group of people cannot change the world need only consider the millions of lives transformed by the legacy of these three men."

 

 

 

image

 

 

 

 

 

Alcoholics Anonymous and the Rockefeller Connection by...

Buy Alcoholics Anonymous and the Rockefeller Connection by Jay D. Moore (Paperback) online at Lulu. Visit the Lulu Marketplace for product details, ratings, and rev...

Preview by Yahoo

 

 

 

 


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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
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| 11108|11104|2016-01-09 15:28:40|jimincancun|Re: Joe and Charlie tapes|
Google "Joe and Charlie transcripts" and you will several options. Here is one http://www.silkworth.net/gsowatch/jc/

I also have an android app with the text and audio. There 8s a free version with only part available and a pay version with the whole set transcribed and audio.

I use the $10 dollar downloaded tapes on an iPad for our BB study


Enviado desde mi Samsung Mobile de Telcel5555😀😀


-------- Original message --------
From: "lookwhosdunn@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date: 08/01/2016 5:50 PM (GMT-04:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Joe and Charlie tapes

 

Does anyone know if the Joe and Charlie big book tapes have been transcribed into a written version?  If the answer is yes, how are copies obtained.



Thank You

A brother in recovery,

John


| 11109|11101|2016-01-09 16:24:46|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Chapter to Wives: written by Marie B?|
From: (rdberryarchitect at sbcglobal.net)

What exactly did Mary Darrah mean when she said "He attempted to cover all the bases by accepting Marie B.'s version"? That Bill Wilson rewrote what Maria B had written in his"style"? 

Thanks

| 11110|11101|2016-01-09 16:25:11|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Chapter to Wives: written by Marie B?|
From: corafinch (corafinch at yahoo.com)

I'm confused. Is everything below the FROM THE MODERATOR line a quote from Mary Darrah? Has anyone on the list seen the Marie B. manuscript? It seems that Darrah only claimed "Akron records state" the chapter was written by Marie, not that Darrah had seen the manuscript itself.

If Lois knew that another wife wrote the chapter, it seems strange that she would have said Bill wrote it. She repeated that he did, three times in a row, and Lois certainly knew the difference between editing and writing.The possibility that Bill deceived her about its authorship doesn't make sense either.

Bill W. biographer Matthew Raphael had no idea of this, or we wouldn't have his memorable remark about Bill "writing in drag."

| 11111|11101|2016-01-09 16:25:58|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Chapter to Wives: written by Marie B?|
THE MARY DARRAH QUOTE:

Cora,

Everything below the following double line is a direct quote from pp. 128-129 of Mary C. Darrah's book, "Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous."

=========================
Anne's work with early AA wives was so effective that in 1938 during the preparation of the manuscript for Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill Wilson wrote these words to Dr. Bob:
 
          My own feeling is that Anne should do the one 
          (chapter] portraying the wife of an alcoholic.14
 
Anne, however, declined the honor, possibly in deference to the feelings of Bill's nonalcoholic wife, Lois. In fact, a comparison of the Akron and New York records shows a discrepancy as to the actual authorship of the chapter To Wives."
 
Akron records state that the chapter was written by Akron's Marie B., wife of Walter B., who first joined the fellowship in September 1935. (Later, Walter relapsed and became the first officially registered alcoholic patient whom Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia hospitalized at St. Thomas in August 1939.) However, of the chapter's actual authorship Lois recalled:
 
          Bill wrote it and I was mad. I wasn't so much mad as 
          hurt. I still don't know why Bill wrote it. I've never 
          really gotten into it -- why he insisted upon writing it. 
          I said to him, "Well, do you want me to write it?" 
          And he said no, he thought it should be in the same 
          style as the rest of the book.15
 
Bill found himself in a dilemma over the authorship of "To Wives" for three reasons: his suggestion to Dr. Bob that Anne write the chapter; his own wife's strong feelings that she should write it; and the sensitive relationships between Akronites and New Yorkers that arose during the writing of the book. He attempted to cover all the bases by accepting Marie B.'s version. This he revised for the obvious reason explained to Lois—that the finished book needed continuity in his own literary style and form. His explanation seemed to solve AA's problems and salved the hurt feelings at home.


| 11112|11101|2016-01-09 16:26:53|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Chapter to Wives: written by Marie B?|
NANCY OLSON'S ACCOUNT

Cora,

As we know, Marie Bray wrote "An Alcoholic's Wife" in the first edit. of the Big Book, and Walter Bray (her husband) wrote "The Back-Slider" in the first edition.

But I have never myself seen anything in the Akron archives (or anywhere else) which would count as a first draft of the chapter To Wives in Marie Bray's hand, or a written statement from any early source stating that Marie Bray wrote the first draft of the chapter To Wives. That doesn't mean that such a document doesn't exist, just that I have never seen any document of that sort.

Mary Darrah (in her Sister Ignatia book) does not indicate where this document could be examined. Was it in the Akron archives? Was it in Mary Darrah's personal collection? Was Mary Darrah looking at what was in fact a first draft of Marie Bray's story for the Big Book, and assuming that it was instead the first draft which Bill Wilson used (and rewrote) to produce the chapter "To Wives"?

I hope somebody from Akron can clear all this up.

THE EARLIEST MENTION I CAN FIND of this claim (or supposition) outside of Mary Darrah's book, comes in a message from Nancy Olson (the founder of the AAHistoryLovers) which appeared in 2002. (Everything below the double line is a direct quotation from Message 82 from Nancy Olson.)

=========================
Message 82. . . . . . . . . . . . BB Authors, 1st edition -- Marie Bray,
Cleveland, OH. "An Alcoholic''s Wife."
From: NMOlson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2002 5:18:00 PM

An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray, Cleveland, Ohio.

(p. 378 in 1st edition.)

Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider"). Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.

There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill wrote it.

She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking, and good fortune because we found a new way of living."

Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home and their son. When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had to give their problems to God.

She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live. When we live with God we want for nothing."
=========================


| 11113|11104|2016-01-09 17:15:57|Nancy Karvonen|Re: Joe and Charlie tapes|
Hi John,

I have a 147-page bound transcript of the Big Book Seminar from Sacramento, California, however, it doesn’t have any contact information.

Love in Service,

Nancy

=================
On Jan 8, 2016, at 1:50 PM, lookwhosdunn@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Does anyone know if the Joe and Charlie big book tapes have been transcribed into a written version?  If the answer is yes, how are copies obtained.



Thank You

A brother in recovery,

John




| 11114|11093|2016-01-09 17:23:59|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Four years or six since Dr. Bob's last drink?|
From Don Bennitt, Glenn Chesnut, Jeff aliasjb, and Mark_area56

.......................................................
From: Don Bennitt =  
(dbennitt at sbcglobal.net)

The second printing, 1941, they tried to make the history dates correspond with the printing date.....they soon gave up on that idea....
-- Don Bennitt, Panel 53, area 19 past delegate

.......................................................
From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)

What Don Bennitt says here is the correct answer. That was the conclusion that our best experts on the Big Book came to, when this problem was discussed several years ago, and we compared all the different editions and printings. Why the eventual return to "four years"? Because otherwise, every two or three years, when a new printing came out, six would have to be changed to eight years, and then that would have to be changed to eleven years, and then twelve years, etc., etc., etc.

At the time Dr. Bob's story was actually written, it was "nearly 4 years" since he had had his last drink. The obvious solution to the problem was simply to go back to that original wording. (The first printing of the first edition of the Big Book was published in April 1939, and Dr. Bob's last drink had been in June 1935, so he was just two months shy of four years of continuous sobriety.)

.......................................................
From: mark_area56 (mark at go-concepts.com)

Patrick,
Heaven only knows why some words were changed in the various editions and printings of our book, but I took the time look at the First Edition, First Printing and Dr. Bob wrote “…nearly four years…”.  I can only suspect that in the following printings and editions changes were made until we finally returned to Dr. Bob’s original words.
-- In service, Mark E. 62-56

.......................................................
From: Jeff = (aliasjb at gmail.com)

That is really quite interesting.  I am looking at the reproduction of the 1st printing of the 1st edition put out by the anonymous press (unaffiliated with AA, but I thought a reliable publisher) which reads on p. 192 "Nearly 4 years have passed..."  I wonder how they could have made such a mistake; or, was it written as 4 years and changed by the 12th printing.  We know that appendices were added between the various printings of the First Edition and that stories were removed for the Second Edition.  Were stories edited/removed before the 2nd Edition?  A mystery, indeed.
Jeff
(323) 447-3556

| 11115|11104|2016-01-09 17:43:22|Regina Seitz|Re: Joe and Charlie tapes|

One can buy it as a paperback on amazon.com.  (under$10)

Many greetings,
Regina

On Jan 9, 2016 20:16, "Nancy Karvonen nancyk72@sbcglobal.net [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi John,


I have a 147-page bound transcript of the Big Book Seminar from Sacramento, California, however, it doesn’t have any contact information.

Love in Service,

Nancy

=================
On Jan 8, 2016, at 1:50 PM, lookwhosdunn@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Does anyone know if the Joe and Charlie big book tapes have been transcribed into a written version?  If the answer is yes, how are copies obtained.



Thank You

A brother in recovery,

John




| 11116|11116|2016-01-09 17:47:40|Byron Bateman|Higher vs higher.|

Hi group,
 
My apologies for the awkward wording of my question, but I'm in hopes that someone in the AAHL group has an answer to a question that's been troubling me.
 
In the chapter "More About Alcoholism," the last two words on the last page are "Higher Power." In the Original Manuscript, and the first printing of the First Edition, the word "higher" is not capitalized, but in my Third Printing of the Second Edition, "Higher" is capitalized. I don't have any printings between these two issues, but I would like to know in which printing, and of which edition, the word Higher was first capitalized.
 
I know that whenever the word "Power" is used in the sense of a source of strength, it is capitalized, but I'm curious about the grammatical use of the word "higher vs Higher." on these pages. [(OM, p. 19.) (1st Edition, p. 55.) (2nd, 3rd,& 4th Editions, p. 43)]
 
Best regards,
 
Byron
| 11117|11117|2016-01-09 17:58:35|AAHistoryLovers|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction) etc.|
From Norm, Glenn Chesnut, Shakey Mike, and cugjp1

.......................................................
From: normtinman (normtinman at yahoo.com)

I have the book called "Two Motorcycle Hobos"--the note I remember reading here a few years ago was that Lois's estate sued the Author after Lois died and the printing  had to be stopped--I also believe it was being printed in Canada--when I read this I went searching for one and found one in Ottawa, and even though I live in Canada, had it couriered to southern FL my winter place--anything I say here is only what I remember from some time ago, and my memory is far from accurate.
-- Norm

.......................................................
From: Glenn Chesnut

Arthur S. had written (and this is the correct way of phrasing it): 

"The Diary of Two Motor Hobos was written by Lois W.
Ellie van V edited it."

Bill Wilson's wife Lois Wilson WROTE it. Ellie van V. did not WRITE it, she simply EDITED Lois' 131-page typed manuscript and prepared it for publication by Gratitude Press in Ottawa in Canada in 1998, see




.......................................................
From: Shakey Mike (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Correction in post: Ellie was the wife of Wally P., not the wife of Bill P.

.......................................................
From: cugjp1 (cugjp1 at yahoo.com)

That is the day we celebrate founding. Not the day Bill got sober, not the day he met Bob. (Bob drank after that.) But the day Bob started making amends. I think that is significant, because this is when Bob truly experienced sacrifice (at risk to all that was important to him) and solidified his sobriety with a true experience.


| 11118|11100|2016-01-11 11:55:30|Shakey1aa@aol.com|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)|
The step discussed happened in Cleveland with Clarence in order to allow Catholic AA's to get sober. 
    Perhaps John B can tell us if The NJ group was a neighborhood group of the NY Mother group or if it was either group 3 or 4 and if there is any documentation showing its departure from the O.G.
     Is there anything from Dr Sam on this separation in writing?
YIS
Shakey


Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 8, 2016, at 9:21 PM, Arthur S arthur.s@live.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I think it reasonable to posit that most (if not all) the NY members departed from the OG when Bill and Lois stopped attending OG meetings at Calvary Hall. The total NY member population was not very large at this time. Bill was also having meetings at his home which included alcoholic OG members. In the spring of 1937, leaders of the OG in NYC ordered alcoholics staying at the Calvary Rescue Mission not to attend these meetings.

In AA Comes of Age Bill writes:

Pg 74 “… Until the middle of 1937 we in New York had been working alongside the Oxford Groups. But in the latter part of that year we most reluctantly parted company with these great friends.

Pg 76:” … It was not until later, and well after the A.A. book was published, that our Akron members withdrew from the Oxford Groups and finally from the home which had sheltered them so well.

Pg 160-161:” …This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling newcomers … In important matters there was still considerable disagreement between the Eastern and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were still active Oxford Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year before. In Akron and vicinity, they still talked about the Oxford Groups’ absolutes: absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. This dose was found to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we had abandoned the expressions …”

Pg 165: “… After we New Yorkers had left the Oxford Groups in 1937 we often described ourselves as a “nameless bunch of alcoholics.” From this phrase it was only a step to the idea of ‘Alcoholics Anonymous.’ This was its actual derivation ...”

The Diary of Two Motor Hobos was written by Lois W. Ellie van V edited it.

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2016 3:05 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)

 

 

From: Shakey Mike Gwirtz =

<Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

 

 For the newer members, LR is "Lois Remembers" by Lois W. Ellie van V edited it.

 

It is not conference approved literature. It is Al-Anon literature. On page197 it says, "We stop going to Oxford Group meetings." I take that to mean what it says, that Bill and Lois W. stop going to meetings. Not that everyone at the N Y mother group stopped too. In LR OG 103 it says at the bottom of the page "But in the summer of 1937 Bill and I stopped going to OG meetings. "

 

In AACOA(AA Comes of Age), pg. vii says, (On the eighth comment down) as "1937, New York's AA's separate from Oxford Groups "(OG) Is there some document to substantiate this? 

 

In Lois Remembers, she says they left the OG and were "a nameless band of drunks." She then discussed Joe W and the nome for the Big Book .

 

If I remember what Nell Wing told us about Lois's diary ( which was left to Nell) and the book "Motorcycle Hobos" written by Ellie V. H.,Wife of Bill P., the diary was lent out and not freely returned. I remember something about the book being recalled and not for sale. Can someone elaborate on this that knows more than I.

 

Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz

NAAAW in San Fran this year. Hope to see you all there.

 

 

| 11119|11119|2016-01-13 10:02:21|mariajoseph ignatius|Link for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"|
Dear Friends,

Does anyone has the free download link in pdf format for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"

Regards.
Joseph.M
| 11120|11100|2016-01-13 10:02:38|Arthur S|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)|

What do you mean by “The step discussed happened in Cleveland with Clarence …” I hope you are not propagating the nonsense of the Cleveland Group claiming (erroneously) to be the first to use the name “Alcoholics Anonymous” for a group and/or meeting.

According AA Comes of Age pg 11, NJ AA didn’t materialize until 2 years after NY separated from the Oxford Group: “… I reminded Jerseyites at the Convention of early meetings in Upper Montclair and South Orange and in Monsey, New York, when Lois and I moved over there about the time the A.A. book came off the press in the spring of 1939, after the foreclosure of the Brooklyn ·home of her parents where we ·had been living … We attended New Jersey’s first A.A.- meeting, held in the· summer of 1939, at the Upper Montclair house-of Henry P., my partner in the now shaky book enterprise …”

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 2:16 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)

 

 

The step discussed happened in Cleveland with Clarence in order to allow Catholic AA's to get sober. 

    Perhaps John B can tell us if The NJ group was a neighborhood group of the NY Mother group or if it was either group 3 or 4 and if there is any documentation showing its departure from the O.G.

     Is there anything from Dr Sam on this separation in writing?

YIS

Shakey



Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 8, 2016, at 9:21 PM, Arthur S arthur.s@live.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I think it reasonable to posit that most (if not all) the NY members departed from the OG when Bill and Lois stopped attending OG meetings at Calvary Hall. The total NY member population was not very large at this time. Bill was also having meetings at his home which included alcoholic OG members. In the spring of 1937, leaders of the OG in NYC ordered alcoholics staying at the Calvary Rescue Mission not to attend these meetings.

In AA Comes of Age Bill writes:

Pg 74 “… Until the middle of 1937 we in New York had been working alongside the Oxford Groups. But in the latter part of that year we most reluctantly parted company with these great friends.

Pg 76:” … It was not until later, and well after the A.A. book was published, that our Akron members withdrew from the Oxford Groups and finally from the home which had sheltered them so well.

Pg 160-161:” …This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling newcomers … In important matters there was still considerable disagreement between the Eastern and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were still active Oxford Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year before. In Akron and vicinity, they still talked about the Oxford Groups’ absolutes: absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. This dose was found to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we had abandoned the expressions …”

Pg 165: “… After we New Yorkers had left the Oxford Groups in 1937 we often described ourselves as a “nameless bunch of alcoholics.” From this phrase it was only a step to the idea of ‘Alcoholics Anonymous.’ This was its actual derivation ...”

The Diary of Two Motor Hobos was written by Lois W. Ellie van V edited it.

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2016 3:05 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction)

 

 

From: Shakey Mike Gwirtz =

<Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

 

 For the newer members, LR is "Lois Remembers" by Lois W. Ellie van V edited it.

 

It is not conference approved literature. It is Al-Anon literature. On page197 it says, "We stop going to Oxford Group meetings." I take that to mean what it says, that Bill and Lois W. stop going to meetings. Not that everyone at the N Y mother group stopped too. In LR OG 103 it says at the bottom of the page "But in the summer of 1937 Bill and I stopped going to OG meetings. "

 

In AACOA(AA Comes of Age), pg. vii says, (On the eighth comment down) as "1937, New York's AA's separate from Oxford Groups "(OG) Is there some document to substantiate this? 

 

In Lois Remembers, she says they left the OG and were "a nameless band of drunks." She then discussed Joe W and the nome for the Big Book .

 

If I remember what Nell Wing told us about Lois's diary ( which was left to Nell) and the book "Motorcycle Hobos" written by Ellie V. H.,Wife of Bill P., the diary was lent out and not freely returned. I remember something about the book being recalled and not for sale. Can someone elaborate on this that knows more than I.

 

Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz

NAAAW in San Fran this year. Hope to see you all there.

 

 

| 11121|11121|2016-01-13 10:03:35|bigbookjoe|Dr. Tiebout and the Self Healing Ego|

I had found a recording by Dr. Tiebout at the 1960 Long Beach International. I believe that I found it on xa-speakers.org. My downloaded copy vanished during a system of power failures that destroyed two backup disks. 


There is no sign of such a talk on xa-speakers.org, and nothing on the 1960 convention, or Dr. Tiebout's participation.


Such things make me fear for my sanity, but that is a recurring issue for me.


In the talk the man talks about the dangers of a self-healing Ego that could lose all advances during a period of sobriety. The summation of his presentation was the need to be vigilant against such a self-healing restoring Ego to control in the alcoholic's life ... or ELSE. ANd now I have reason to cite the talk, which is hard to do when I cannot find it - anywhere.


I last heard it about three years ago and am wondering if anyone has a pointer to send me to another copy of the talk or - better stll - a transcript of the speech? 

| 11122|11093|2016-01-13 12:52:05|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Four years or six since Dr. Bob's last drink?|
From: Thom R. = thombone200x (thombone at gmail.com)

.......................................................
Question asked by Jeff = (aliasjb at gmail.com)
We know that appendices were added between the various printings of the First Edition and that stories were removed for the Second Edition.  Were stories edited/removed before the 2nd Edition?
.......................................................

THOM'S ANSWER:

Yes, they were. An example is "Lone Endeavor" which appeared only in the first printing of the first edition.

Many changes have been made throughout the years without attribution or documentation. None that I can find anyway. That doesn't mean there isn't any, I just haven't found it. But I have been looking.

I can't even find out why they gutted a bunch of 3rd edition stories in the 4th edition.  Or why they removed "a Wednesday" from Earl Treat's story. Or who made the boneheaded decision to remove Dick Stanley's story from the fourth edition, much less Clarence Snyder's.

I'm glad all these stories are still preserved in the Experience, Strength and Hope book but that book is not very widely read unfortunately. My sponsees read it though haha. Boy do they read it. ;)

Thom R

| 11123|11117|2016-01-13 12:52:58|Thom Bone|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction) etc.|

Do we know why this book was pulled in the first place and why Lois' estate was upset about it even if Lois herself wasn't when she was alive? I went ahead and found and ordered a like new copy and I'm going to carefully read through it when it gets here and see if I can find anything strange in it that is in conflict with anything else. If I do, I will report it to you all here. Also, if you have any questions about the book that I can answer from the book itself, feel free to ask and I will try to answer those questions after the book arrives.

Thom R.

On Jan 9, 2016 5:58 PM, "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

From Norm, Glenn Chesnut, Shakey Mike, and cugjp1

.......................................................
From: normtinman <normtinman@yahoo.com> (normtinman at yahoo.com)

I have the book called "Two Motorcycle Hobos"--the note I remember reading here a few years ago was that Lois's estate sued the Author after Lois died and the printing  had to be stopped--I also believe it was being printed in Canada--when I read this I went searching for one and found one in Ottawa, and even though I live in Canada, had it couriered to southern FL my winter place--anything I say here is only what I remember from some time ago, and my memory is far from accurate.
-- Norm

.......................................................
From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at global.net)

Arthur S. had written (and this is the correct way of phrasing it): 

"The Diary of Two Motor Hobos was written by Lois W.
Ellie van V edited it."

Bill Wilson's wife Lois Wilson WROTE it. Ellie van V. did not WRITE it, she simply EDITED Lois' 131-page typed manuscript and prepared it for publication by Gratitude Press in Ottawa in Canada in 1998, see


 
 
image
 
 
 
 
 
Diary of two motorcycle hobos: Lois. Wilson: Amazon.co...
rare old book of Lois and Bill Wilson. Quite entertaining! Brand new! Never been cracked open! A VERY RARE OUT OF PRINT, FIRST EDITION FIRST PRINTING, ...
Preview by Yahoo
 


.......................................................
From: Shakey Mike <Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Correction in post: Ellie was the wife of Wally P., not the wife of Bill P.

.......................................................
From: cugjp1 <cugjp1@yahoo.com> (cugjp1 at yahoo.com)

That is the day we celebrate founding. Not the day Bill got sober, not the day he met Bob. (Bob drank after that.) But the day Bob started making amends. I think that is significant, because this is when Bob truly experienced sacrifice (at risk to all that was important to him) and solidified his sobriety with a true experience.


| 11124|11119|2016-01-13 12:59:09|Tom Hickcox|Re: Link for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"|
Those books are copyrighted by Hazelden, so  I doubt you will find what you are looking for, but it would be nice if they are available.

Tommy H

On 1/12/16 10:48, mariajoseph ignatius joseph.7810@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
Dear Friends,

Does anyone has the free download link in pdf format for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"

Regards.
Joseph.M

| 11125|11121|2016-01-13 13:03:57|Michael Margetis|Re: Dr. Tiebout and the Self Healing Ego|
I don't think this could be the exact talk because it's from 1966, but the title is "Works on Ego" by Dr. Tiebout. Can't remember where or when I got it but here's a link if you care to download it. http://1drv.ms/22ZLcBY

Take care,
Mike Margetis
Brunswick Maryland



On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 7:42 AM, "bigbookjoe@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" wrote:


 
I had found a recording by Dr. Tiebout at the 1960 Long Beach International. I believe that I found it on xa-speakers.org. My downloaded copy vanished during a system of power failures that destroyed two backup disks. 

There is no sign of such a talk on xa-speakers.org, and nothing on the 1960 convention, or Dr. Tiebout's participation.

Such things make me fear for my sanity, but that is a recurring issue for me.

In the talk the man talks about the dangers of a self-healing Ego that could lose all advances during a period of sobriety. The summation of his presentation was the need to be vigilant against such a self-healing restoring Ego to control in the alcoholic's life ... or ELSE. ANd now I have reason to cite the talk, which is hard to do when I cannot find it - anywhere.

I last heard it about three years ago and am wondering if anyone has a pointer to send me to another copy of the talk or - better stll - a transcript of the speech? 


| 11126|11117|2016-01-13 13:09:39|AAHistoryLovers|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction) etc.|
From: bikergaryg (bikergaryg at aol.com)

Written by Lois Wilson
edited by Ellie van V. 1998
copyright held in Canada by : Gratitude Press Canada 
printed by,
Beauregard Printers, Ottawa, Canada 1998
Manufactured in Canada
Canadian Cataloguing in Publication Data
ISBN 0-9683560-0-1

please correct me if I am wrong on the following.
they were unable to get the book published in America so they went to Canada.
only 5000 was printed.
one of our members had the book on his web site and was forced to remove it.

this book does pop up now and then on E-bay.

Semper - Gratus

Gary

| 11127|11119|2016-01-13 13:10:29|Jim|Re: Link for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"|

Google says

The little red book
http://self-help-ebook.net/17247-the-little-red-book-aa-ed-webster.html

      Stools and bottles http://104.238.191.223/a/0894860275-Stools-Bottles-Character-Defects-Meditations.html

On Jan 13, 2016 4:59 PM, "Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Those books are copyrighted by Hazelden, so  I doubt you will find what you are looking for, but it would be nice if they are available.

Tommy H

On 1/12/16 10:48, mariajoseph ignatius joseph.7810@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
Dear Friends,

Does anyone has the free download link in pdf format for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"

Regards.
Joseph.M

| 11128|11128|2016-01-13 13:12:15|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Higher vs. higher|
From Gary = (bikergaryg at aol.com)

I checked a 2nd edition first and sixteen printing higher is not capitalized.
Looking around for my early 3rd editions.

.......................................................
Original message from: < byronbateman@hotmail.com> ( byronbateman at hotmail.com)

In the chapter "More About Alcoholism," the last two words on the last page are "Higher Power." In the Original Manuscript, and the first printing of the First Edition, the word "higher" is not capitalized, but in my Third Printing of the Second Edition, "Higher" is capitalized. I don't have any printings between these two issues, but I would like to know in which printing, and of which edition, the word Higher was first capitalized.
 
I know that whenever the word "Power" is used in the sense of a source of strength, it is capitalized, but I'm curious about the grammatical use of the word "higher vs Higher." on these pages. [(OM, p. 19.) (1st Edition, p. 55.) (2nd, 3rd,& 4th Editions, p. 43)]
.......................................................

| 11129|11104|2016-01-13 13:18:37|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Joe and Charlie tapes|
From happy2bsober, ukmikeb, and deitzbhair3

.......................................................
From: happy2bsober1997 (hish9 at @rogers.com)

Hazelden has put out a book called A Program for You ( a guides to the big books design for living) which is the complete Joe and Charlie seminar.
 -- Yours in love and Service Donny

.......................................................
From: ukmikeb@yahoo.co.uk (ukmikeb at yahoo.co.uk)

There is a new book out called "Need it want it do it" Joe and Charlie obtainable through Amazon if this helps. Regards, Mike B (UK)

.......................................................
From: (deitzbhair3 at aol.com)

You can go on the Kelly foundation web site and also get them.

| 11130|11130|2016-01-13 13:51:10|AAHistoryLovers|Question on Alcohol, Science, And Society|
From George Puhl = (cugjp1 at yahoo.com)

I am reading the Yale book Alcohol, Science, And Society. It mentions in this book that recordings were made of these lectures. Does anyone know if these recordings are available? 

George Puhl

| 11131|11119|2016-01-13 14:14:08|Thom Bone|Re: Link for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"|

Both of those links lead to nasty places. How about we just try to not breach copyright? "Demands rigorous honesty" and all that blah blah blah, you know? ;)

Thom R.

On Jan 13, 2016 1:10 PM, "Jim jimincancun@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Google says

The little red book
http://self-help-ebook.net/17247-the-little-red-book-aa-ed-webster.html

      Stools and bottles http://104.238.191.223/a/0894860275-Stools-Bottles-Character-Defects-Meditations.html

On Jan 13, 2016 4:59 PM, "Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Those books are copyrighted by Hazelden, so  I doubt you will find what you are looking for, but it would be nice if they are available.

Tommy H

On 1/12/16 10:48, mariajoseph ignatius joseph.7810@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
Dear Friends,

Does anyone has the free download link in pdf format for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"

Regards.
Joseph.M

| 11132|11121|2016-01-15 13:41:36|Thom Bone|Re: Dr. Tiebout and the Self Healing Ego|

(I'm sorry for the possible repeat post, hopefully Glenn will delete the first one and not approve it. Autocorrect got me and I accidentally pushed the send button before I could fix it. My apologies. Below is the corrected message.)

In the archive I'm linking to, I have enclosed his talks from both the 1955 St Louis International Convention and the 1960 International in Long Beach where he shared the stage with Bill. I hope this is what you're looking for because these are the only talks I know of where Dr. Tiebout spoke at an AA international convention.

http://thombone.com/stash/tiebout.zip

The archive is 37.82MB in size and you will need a tool that can unzip (unpack) a zip archive, which is native to pretty much every operating system so it shouldn't be a problem lol. The files inside are both mp3.

If you have any questions about the files themselves please email me directly to keep the bandwidth level here on the group low. :)

Thom R.

On Jan 13, 2016 1:04 PM, "Michael Margetis mfmargetis@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I don't think this could be the exact talk because it's from 1966, but the title is "Works on Ego" by Dr. Tiebout. Can't remember where or when I got it but here's a link if you care to download it. http://1drv.ms/22ZLcBY

Take care,
Mike Margetis
Brunswick Maryland



On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 7:42 AM, "bigbookjoe@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
I had found a recording by Dr. Tiebout at the 1960 Long Beach International. I believe that I found it on xa-speakers.org. My downloaded copy vanished during a system of power failures that destroyed two backup disks. 

There is no sign of such a talk on xa-speakers.org, and nothing on the 1960 convention, or Dr. Tiebout's participation.

Such things make me fear for my sanity, but that is a recurring issue for me.

In the talk the man talks about the dangers of a self-healing Ego that could lose all advances during a period of sobriety. The summation of his presentation was the need to be vigilant against such a self-healing restoring Ego to control in the alcoholic's life ... or ELSE. ANd now I have reason to cite the talk, which is hard to do when I cannot find it - anywhere.

I last heard it about three years ago and am wondering if anyone has a pointer to send me to another copy of the talk or - better stll - a transcript of the speech? 


| 11133|11121|2016-01-15 13:41:56|hdmozart|Re: Dr. Tiebout and the Self Healing Ego|
This might be the file you're looking for 0

01

 



I'm new to OneDrive - if you have trouble ownloading, let me know - 

Hope this helps,

Larry
| 11134|11119|2016-01-15 13:42:19|Rey Delupos|Re: Link for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"|


http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/9781616495695_sample_656362.pdf



Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016, Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Those books are copyrighted by Hazelden, so  I doubt you will find what you are looking for, but it would be nice if they are available.

Tommy H

On 1/12/16 10:48, mariajoseph ignatius joseph.7810@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] wrote:
Dear Friends,

Does anyone has the free download link in pdf format for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"

Regards.
Joseph.M

| 11135|11117|2016-01-15 13:43:40|Charles Knapp|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter(correction) etc.|

Hello everyone

 

For more info about the copyright dispute see this webpage:

 

http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/0/0/federal/federal-court-of-canada/2000/11/20/wing-v-velthuizen-2000-16609-fc.shtml

 

Trust me its not a porn site although it might look like it at first.

 

Nell Wing and The Stepping Stones Foundation, not the Lois Wilson’s estate, was suing for copyright infringements. Scroll though the document and it lays out what actually happen instead of what we thing might have happen.  To many times things get posted here before proper research is made. I can no longer relay on just my memory; I need cold hard facts to back up my memory.

 

Copyrights do not stop at the time of a persons death. In fact at the time of death it can legally be past on to someone else.  This court case explains it very well.  This is one reason the GSO Archives is so reluctant to just photocopy anything and sent it to you. The copyright laws are very specific as to who has the right to copy any document, photo or written work. Even if it is in your collection or archives - you do not have the copyright to that item unless it has been given to you.

 

Hope this helps to clear this up

 

Charles from Wisconsin

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: Thom Bone thombone@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 2:53 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter(correction) etc.

 

 

Do we know why this book was pulled in the first place and why Lois' estate was upset about it even if Lois herself wasn't when she was alive? I went ahead and found and ordered a like new copy and I'm going to carefully read through it when it gets here and see if I can find anything strange in it that is in conflict with anything else. If I do, I will report it to you all here. Also, if you have any questions about the book that I can answer from the book itself, feel free to ask and I will try to answer those questions after the book arrives.

Thom R.

On Jan 9, 2016 5:58 PM, "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

From Norm, Glenn Chesnut, Shakey Mike, and cugjp1

 

.......................................................

From: normtinman <normtinman@yahoo.com> (normtinman at yahoo.com)

 

I have the book called "Two Motorcycle Hobos"--the note I remember reading here a few years ago was that Lois's estate sued the Author after Lois died and the printing  had to be stopped--I also believe it was being printed in Canada--when I read this I went searching for one and found one in Ottawa, and even though I live in Canada, had it couriered to southern FL my winter place--anything I say here is only what I remember from some time ago, and my memory is far from accurate.

-- Norm

 

.......................................................

From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at global.net)

 

Arthur S. had written (and this is the correct way of phrasing it): 

 

"The Diary of Two Motor Hobos was written by Lois W.

Ellie van V edited it."

 

Bill Wilson's wife Lois Wilson WROTE it. Ellie van V. did not WRITE it, she simply EDITED Lois' 131-page typed manuscript and prepared it for publication by Gratitude Press in Ottawa in Canada in 1998, see

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Diary of two motorcycle hobos: Lois. Wilson: Amazon.co...

rare old book of Lois and Bill Wilson. Quite entertaining! Brand new! Never been cracked open! A VERY RARE OUT OF PRINT, FIRST EDITION FIRST PRINTING, ...

Preview by Yahoo

 

 

 

.......................................................

From: Shakey Mike <Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

 

Correction in post: Ellie was the wife of Wally P., not the wife of Bill P.

 

.......................................................

From: cugjp1 <cugjp1@yahoo.com> (cugjp1 at yahoo.com)

 

That is the day we celebrate founding. Not the day Bill got sober, not the day he met Bob. (Bob drank after that.) But the day Bob started making amends. I think that is significant, because this is when Bob truly experienced sacrifice (at risk to all that was important to him) and solidified his sobriety with a true experience.

 

 

 

| 11136|11119|2016-01-15 13:44:42|hdmozart|Re: Link for "Stools & Bottles" and "The Little Red Book"|
I have a version of The Little Red Book that's been on my hard drives for years - I have no idea from where I got them or which editions - FOREWORD TO 50TH ANNIVERSARY EDITION is at the top of the page - They are in three formats 

Microsoft Word

http://1drv.ms/1Zwbyfx

Text

http://1drv.ms/1ZwbZqb

Rich Text

http://1drv.ms/1ZwbQmK


I have another copy that is English side by side with Romanian (Also FOREWORD TO 50TH ANNIVERSARY EDITION) in Microsoft Word format - 

http://1drv.ms/230KTXr


The above links are my brand new OneDrive.Live - I am not sure how to use OneDrive - if anyone has problems, let me know and I'll post them somewhere else - 


Interestingly there is a The Little Red Book for Women in Google Books (eBook fee)

https://books.google.com/books?id=wU6URMkVo6oC


Also, Hindsfoot,org has acomparison of the 1946 & 1949 editions of The Little Red Book

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

Hope this helps

Larry

| 11137|11117|2016-01-15 13:45:36|hdmozart|Re: June or May founding date? Lois' letter (correction) etc.|
I have a copy in Rich Text, Word Document and HTML - I sure don't want to violate any copyright stuff - The file size is small enough to go through email - I don't want to mass distribute copies, but for legitimate research by an historian or two, I would be happy to email a copy - 

I did find a copy currently available here:

Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos

Here is the publishing information from the copies I have:

Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos


I am grateful to have a copy of Lois’ Motorcycle Diary.  This diary allows all of us the opportunity to see the loving relationship that Bill and Lois Wilson had.  Bill Wilson is the Co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous and Lois the Co-founder of Al-Anon.  I am sure everyone in the A.A. and Al-Anon community--and all who are interested in these Programs’ history, will enjoy this enchanting story. 

 

Lois’ text has remained “verbatim”.  Only some noticeable spelling errors and word omissions have been altered.  It has been typeset to closely resemble the original typed manuscript. 

 

All who read this may take great pleasure in following Bill W., and his wife Lois, on their motorcycle adventures in Eastern America in the late 1920's. 

 

Wouldn’t it be wonderful to recreate this journey!

 

Sincerely,

Ellie van V.


Gratitude Press Canada is not affiliated with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc., or with the General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous.  The publication of this book has not been authorized or endorsed by, and does not imply affiliation with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. or the General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous.


Published by:

Gratitude Press Canada

(no longer operating as such)

 

Ottawa, Ontario Canada K2B 7C6

Tel:  (613) 820‑8580/Fax: (613) 820‑5167

 

Printed by:

 Beauregard Printers, Ottawa, Canada 1998

Manufactured in Canada

Canadian Cataloguing in Publication Data

 

First Edition

First Printing

 

Wilson, Lois

Copyright © Ellie van V., 1998

All rights reserved

 

Publisher's note: This book is not a work of fiction.  Names, characters, places and incidents are either the product of the author's imagination or are used correctly.  Locations, persons, both living or dead, events, or locales are entirely the imaginative production of the author.

 

All rights reserved.  No part of this work covered by the copyright hereon may be reproduced or used in any form or by any means‑graphic, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, taping or scanning or information storage and retrieval systems without the prior written permission of the Publisher or, in case of photocopying or other reprographic copying.

 

This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re‑sold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser.  The original typed manuscript is 131 pages, 8½"x11".  The only editorial changes made are spelling errors or word omissions.  All other text is as written by the Author.

 

ISBN 0‑9683560‑0‑1

 


Hope this helps,

Larry 

| 11138|11138|2016-01-16 09:32:24|Christa Vinci|Re: Link for "Stools|
We ordered the Little Red from Akron Intergroup.  The staff were so delightful we ordered much other material as well.  Their selection includes many items we just couldn't find at our local Intergroup.

--
-Christa
| 11139|11139|2016-01-22 11:11:50|jimincancun|Grapevine Archives|

Good morning and thanks in advance for any help. I enjoy this group very much and appreciate the sharing of information.


The question is: Are the Grapevine Archives to be relied upon as the definitive and reliable texts for Grapevine Articles?


Point in question: Grapevine January 1946 Vol. 2 #8

1.- Article entitled: 

"A Suggestion

(A continuation of the series begun in the July, 1945, issue presenting basic A.A. principles for discussion).

In the years that lie ahead..."

http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=92939&tb=3cT1kYS9icm93c2VzZWFyY2hyZXN1bHQucGhwJnE9amFudWFyeStiaWxsK3cuJmhkcnNlYXJjaD1TZWFyY2g= 

2.- http://silkworth.net/grapevine/tradition_born.html

"A Tradition Born of Our Anonymity

By Bill W.

In the years that lie ahead..."

Even online photocopies of the printed text do not agree.

3.- http://silkworth.net/pdfGV44-8/Grapevine-Vol2-No8-Jan-1946.pdf

"A Tradition Born of Our Anonymity

By Hill

In the years that lie ahead..."

4.- aacultwatch: A Tradition Born of Our Anonymity, January, 1946, Bill W

ByBill

---------------------------------------------

And besides, there are very many other differences between the Grapevine Archive text "Suggestion" and the other versions--even between supposed copies of the printed version.

TIA for any information or clarification.

jim


 

| 11140|11140|2016-01-23 14:53:29|AAHistoryLovers|Marty Mann talk at 1980 AA International in New Orleans|
From: (From: CBudnick at healing-transitions.org)

I’m interested in knowing if Marty Mann’s talk at the 1980 International Convention in New Orleans was recorded.  The AA GSO Archives does not have a copy of it.
 
She spoke Saturday July 5th at 11:30 am on the topic of Women in A.A.
 
Thanks, Chris
 
___________________________________________
Chris Budnick, MSW, LCSW, LCAS, CCS
Vice President of Programs, Healing Transitions
(Formerly The Healing Place of Wake County)
1251 Goode Street, Raleigh, North Carolina 27603
919-821-1140 (Office) < > 919-838-9800 (Main number)

| 11141|11121|2016-01-23 14:58:04|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Dr. Tiebout and the Self Healing Ego|
From: Joe Adams (bigbookjoe at yahoo.com)

Thom, thank you. I did find the one I was looking for (which is this one) online earlier in the list. But I still appreciate the effort.

It was on recoveryaudio.prg but did not turn up on xa-speakers.org, which surprises me.

1966 recording is a different talk. 

Joe Adams, Author and Publisher

| 11142|11142|2016-01-23 15:35:24|AAHistoryLovers|What surgery did Dr. Bob perform the day of his last drink?|
From: (bernadette.john at sympatico.ca)

On page 357 of The Language of the Heart, Bill W. writes that Dr. Bob sobered up to perform surgery that infamous day of June 10, 1935. Bill states that he worried that a slip of the scalpel might 'take the life of the patient'. We know that Dr. Bob was a proctologist but he was also a skilled surgeon who had a wide range of aptitude to operate. (Dr.Bob and the Good Old Timers)

Does anyone know what type of surgery he performed that day?
 
Bernadette M.
King City Group
Ontario, Canada

| 11143|11142|2016-01-23 15:35:59|Glenn Chesnut|Re: What surgery did Dr. Bob perform the day of his last drink?|
I remember Ernie Kurtz saying -- I think it was in a public speech, and I think it might have been at the second National AA Archives Workshop, which was held in Akron in 1997 ....

that if someone had just taken a photo of that patient's anus back at the time, we could post the photo up in AA meeting rooms, etc., with the caption underneath ....

The Most Famous A**hole in History


(If I had said this

XX

(If
| 11144|11144|2016-01-23 15:36:54|Bill|Judge Dismisses AA in Wrongful Death Lawsuit|
| 11145|11145|2016-01-23 16:46:28|AAHistoryLovers|Evidence? AA's in WW II had fewer relapses than AA's who stayed home|
From: johnweisllc (JOHNWEISNYC at aol.com)

I attended a meeting the other night at which the chapter on Step 3 in the 12 + 12 was read. There was a question from a member as to the source behind the statement in the step that AA’s in the military had fewer alcoholic lapses and emotional binges than AA’s safe at home.

===================================
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, chapter on Step 3, towards the end: 
“When World War II broke out, this spiritual principle had its first major test. A.A.'s entered the services and were scattered all over the world. Would they be able to take discipline, stand up under fire, and endure the monotony and misery of war? Would the kind of dependence they had learned in A.A. carry them through? Well, it did. They had even fewer alcoholic lapses or emotional binges than A.A.'s safe at home did. They were just as capable of endurance and valor as any other soldiers.”
===================================
 
Can any of you tell me what that statement is based upon? Could it be anything beyond anecdotal?
 
Thanks!
 
John

| 11146|11140|2016-01-24 12:20:05|Mike Barns|Re: Marty Mann talk at 1980 AA International in New Orleans|
My company (AVW Audio Visual) recorded all the talks at the 1980 International. In 1986, we were going to clean out some of our old masters, and I talked to GSO to see if they wanted any of the tapes, and they said they had all they needed. So, in the years after that, I gave the tapes to various local groups until they were all gone.


Mike Barns
| 11147|11140|2016-01-24 15:55:50|toronto_joe_c|Re: Marty Mann talk at 1980 AA International in New Orleans|
Mike, do you or anyone know who (what company) recorded the Toronto 2005 Convention? Neither GSO nor Toronto Intergroup have a complete inventory of the speakers and panels and there's something I'm looking for from that year.

Best,

Joe C
| 11148|11148|2016-01-25 13:13:25|AAHistoryLovers|An increase in alcohol-related liver disease in the United Kingdom|
From: Laurie A. = jennylaurie1@hotmail.com (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

The Guardian newspaper is running a four week series on the National Health Service. Today there are three pages on the impact of alcohol on treatment, from A&E admissions to liver disease. 

 
 

 



.......................................................
WITH A COMMENT FROM THE MODERATOR:

Will there also be echoes in American society of this concern in the U.K. over the rise in liver damage and other physical damage caused by alcohol? Will Alcoholics Anonymous be affected, in either the U.K. or the U.S., by the slow change in attitude, towards drinking and its possible consequences, which now seems to be taking place?

The opinions and ideas expressed in The Guardian (called "The Manchester Guardian" back in Bill W's time) are important because is one of the three largest newspapers in the United Kingdom. In fact, it is the fifth most widely read newspaper in the world, with over 42.6 million readers daily.

So what we see here are some powerful shifts currently taking place in British thinking about alcoholism, where dropping by your local pub for a pint -- or two half-pints if one is a lady (for one must remain ladylike about it, mustn't one?) -- is part of the British way of life, and for many Britishers their principal or even sole social outlet.

| 11149|11149|2016-01-25 13:52:16|Maureen Kerrigan|Judge ourselves by intentions|

I could have sworn "we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions " was from the 12 x 12 but I and a few friends searched and searched both the 12 x 12 and the big book and can't find it. In fact, googling it's most often attributed to a completely non-AA source - Stephen Covey, author of "7 Habits of Highly Effective People."

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks  

| 11150|11149|2016-01-25 14:38:35|Jim|Re: Judge ourselves by intentions|

Not AA
Www.164andmore.com is good for looking up BB and 12 &12 stuff
ontributor
“We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior” – Stephen M.R. Covey

On Jan 25, 2016 4:52 PM, "Maureen Kerrigan maureenlkerrigan1@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I could have sworn "we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions " was from the 12 x 12 but I and a few friends searched and searched both the 12 x 12 and the big book and can't find it. In fact, googling it's most often attributed to a completely non-AA source - Stephen Covey, author of "7 Habits of Highly Effective People."

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks  

| 11151|11151|2016-01-25 15:28:19|AAHistoryLovers|1940s and 50s: links between early AA history and NA beginnings|
1940s and 50s: links between early AA history and NA beginnings

From: Chris Budnick = CBudnick@healing-transitions.org (CBudnick at healing-transitions.org)

.......................................................
[FROM THE MODERATOR: One could argue that this posting is about NA history, not AA history, but the need to develop recovery programs for addicts to substances like cocaine, heroin, and so on was more closely tied than many people realize to developments and concerns in the AA alcoholism treatment program during that period. The hospital, for example, where Bill Wilson got sober at the end of 1934 was run by a man (Charles B. Towns) whose concerns were originally far more with drug addiction than with alcoholism. So a little bit of knowledge about the early history of drug addiction recovery programs in the U.S. is not only useful but necessary to the understanding of the whole culture in which AA was born and developed.]
.......................................................

CHRIS BUDNICK WRITES: Boyd and I were interviewed about the early history of 12-step recovery for persons addicted to drugs other than alcohol.  The interview appears in a new podcast for people in recovery.  It is 1 hour and 17 minutes long.

It is accessible through iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/myrecoverycast/id1048828341?mt=2&i=360837871

And the website: http://www.myrecoverycast.com/cast/

Summary:

BOYD AND CHRIS - PART ONE

NA was founded in 1953 by a group of AA members in Southern California including Jimmy K., who so clearly played the principal service role for the next three decades that only he, among that founding group, has been singled out as the founder of the fellowship.  But what other people and organizations made a contribution to that founding?  That's what we have begun to cover here in our first history episode.

In this episode, we attempt to describe in some detail what might be called the primordial ooze out of which our fellowship emerged as a new life form. What were the conditions of that emergence, and what were the influences?  Of course there was Alcoholics Anonymous, the fellowship that created the very model that NA adopted and then adapted to its purpose.  There was a fellowship called Addicts Anonymous that was started in a federal narcotics hospital in Lexington, Kentucky in the mid 1940s, and there were some ties back to that group in Southern California in the early 1950s, which we will discuss in some detail. In 1949 a member was released from Lexington to New York, where he started a fellowship he decided to call Narcotics Anonymous. That is the first known use of the name. That group developed along some different lines than the Southern California group.  In 1952, an AA member in Los Angeles was approached by the LA County Sheriff to see if he might do something for addicts such as was being done by AA for Alcoholics. He wrote to Bill Wilson about this, and Bill both encouraged him and suggested he get in touch with the Addicts Anonymous group in Lexington. We quote some of that correspondence in this episode. He happened to know someone from his home group named Jimmy K at the time and asked him to help with the effort.

We explore this story in the form of the first of what we hope will be a number of interviews with Boyd and Chris, who have done and continue to do the exacting work of researching all of this trying to find the best documentary evidence of what actually happened.  They are frequently asked to present this material at conventions around the fellowship, including a major presentation at the World Convention in 2013 in Philadelphia.  So sit back for a trip back in time to try to piece together the anatomy of a miracle: the early emergence of Narcotics Anonymous, first as a small group barely surviving in Southern California. It might have been hard at the time to predict that this group would send out a wave of freedom from active addiction that would spread over most of the world as it has today, and you may be certain that it has its sights on the rest.  We will have more of that story in history episodes to come. We hope you enjoy this first one, a look at our origins.


| 11152|11149|2016-01-25 16:00:33|Tom Pasek|Re: Judge ourselves by intentions|
It is in the story from Dr. Paul O. In the 3rd edition it is on page 450 (Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict) and on page 418 in the 4th edition (Acceptance was the Answer) at the bottom of the first paragraph: “Before A.A., I judged myself by my intentions, while the world was judging me by my actions.”





BTW, both stories are the same, but the title was changed to reinforce our singleness of purpose.








Description: Free Sketch 3






Tom Pasek, CEO


Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC


7850 White Lane, Suite E-260


Bakersfield, California 93309


661.654.9116 (Phone)


253.390.8827 (Fax)


tom@shaggyd.com> tom@shaggyd.com


www.shaggyd.com





From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 2:11 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Judge ourselves by intentions








Not AA
Www.164andmore.com is good for looking up BB and 12 &12 stuff
ontributor
“We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior” – Stephen M.R. Covey


On Jan 25, 2016 4:52 PM, "Maureen Kerrigan maureenlkerrigan1@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





I could have sworn "we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions " was from the 12 x 12 but I and a few friends searched and searched both the 12 x 12 and the big book and can't find it. In fact, googling it's most often attributed to a completely non-AA source - Stephen Covey, author of "7 Habits of Highly Effective People."


Anyone have any thoughts?


Thanks










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
| 11153|11149|2016-01-25 16:00:48|DONALD BENNITT|Re: Judge ourselves by intentions|
3rd edition....DOCTOR, ALCOHOLIC ADDICT.....


On Monday, January 25, 2016 4:38 PM, "Jim jimincancun@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" wrote:


 
Not AA
http://www.164andmore.com/ is good for looking up BB and 12 &12 stuff
ontributor
“We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior” – Stephen M.R. Covey
On Jan 25, 2016 4:52 PM, "Maureen Kerrigan maureenlkerrigan1@gmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
I could have sworn "we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions " was from the 12 x 12 but I and a few friends searched and searched both the 12 x 12 and the big book and can't find it. In fact, googling it's most often attributed to a completely non-AA source - Stephen Covey, author of "7 Habits of Highly Effective People."
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks  


| 11154|11145|2016-01-26 10:44:28|chief_roger|Re: Evidence? AA's in WW II had fewer relapses than AA's who stayed |

Great question.  There were an estimated 12,986 AA members in 1945 and the AA Grapevine reported about 300 of them served in the Armed Services.  This included those who served in war overseas as well as those who trained and remained on the "home front".  So, about 2% of the AA population would have served in the military.  It would stand to reason that there were far fewer relapses among the 2% than the other 98%. It would be difficult to validate, even more difficult than tracking the first 100 or the 1st Edition authors and how they did in sobriety. These 12K were spread in over 500 groups as AA growth was expanding rapidly.

I would say it was anecdotal to make the point that the AA program works under any conditions.  I am always impressed by the patriotism and service of so many of our members during that era.


Roger


PS if this topic interests you and you can make it to the AA History Symposium in Sedona, I will be sharing on the subject of AA and the Military.

| 11155|11145|2016-01-27 10:26:43|cugjp1|Re: Evidence? AA's in WW II had fewer relapses than AA's who stayed |
Just a thought. I know the Cleveland Bulletin published and tracked letters to the person's they considered part of their area.(called news from camps) Obviously a small sample, but might be interesting to see if some numbers came out of that. I know Clarence did just fine.

I think I recall another serviceman donating a dollar to this effort to communicate to servicemen. (They were sending the bulletin to servicemen free). Cleveland forwarded the dollar to the Lorain Ave Group hospitalization fund, because the bulletin was considered a free service to those in the military. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "chief_roger@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date:01/26/2016 11:58 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Evidence? AA's in WW II had fewer relapses than AA's who stayed home

 

Great question.  There were an estimated 12,986 AA members in 1945 and the AA Grapevine reported about 300 of them served in the Armed Services.  This included those who served in war overseas as well as those who trained and remained on the "home front".  So, about 2% of the AA population would have served in the military.  It would stand to reason that there were far fewer relapses among the 2% than the other 98%. It would be difficult to validate, even more difficult than tracking the first 100 or the 1st Edition authors and how they did in sobriety. These 12K were spread in over 500 groups as AA growth was expanding rapidly.

I would say it was anecdotal to make the point that the AA program works under any conditions.  I am always impressed by the patriotism and service of so many of our members during that era.


Roger


PS if this topic interests you and you can make it to the AA History Symposium in Sedona, I will be sharing on the subject of AA and the Military.

| 11156|11145|2016-01-27 10:28:03|Gary Neidhardt|Re: Evidence? AA's in WW II had fewer relapses than AA's who stayed |
Below are the exact words that appeared in The Atlanta Constitution on May 31, 1944, which was one of seven newspaper articles in Atlanta papers that documented Bill Wilson's visits of May 29 and May 30. I can produce an image of the article on demand if you doubt my typing. I thought this was appropriate when I saw the 2% number above that claimed that 300 AAs were serving in the military from a Grapevine article written in 1945. Note Bill's number in mid-1944 was 1,000, and that he claimed the productive service of 8,000 "ex-drunks" would contribute $30,000,000 to the economy. This doesn't directly address relapses, but does address Bill's advocacy of AA. 

EX-DRUNKS AID WAR, SAYS 'BILL"
The Kiwanis Club propagates great citizenship but Alcoholics Anonymous creates it, is the way "Bill," co-founder of the organization for sobering and rehabilitating hopeless drunks, draws a parallel between the aims of the two groups.

"Both organizations attempt to help the less fortunate people," said "Bill," guest speaker at the Kiwanis Club luncheon yesterday at the Ansley, "but Alcoholics Anonymous is attempting with remarkable success to transform a hopeless, drunken dreg on society into a reasonable citizen. Thus we are able to say for perhaps the first time that the town drunk is bringing something to the community."

Listing what he termed the "byproducts" of Alcoholics Anonymous, "Bill" cited figures showing that 8,000 ex-drunks are in war industries, that over 1,000 A.A. members are in the armed forces, and that $30,000,000 will be the earning power for the next 12 months of a group of men and women who once earned "less than nothing."

"Bill" concluded his two-day visit with the loal A.A. group yesterday.

Gary Neidhardt
Area 16 Archives Chair
morningmael@yahoo.com


On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 1:44 PM, "chief_roger@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" wrote:


 
Great question.  There were an estimated 12,986 AA members in 1945 and the AA Grapevine reported about 300 of them served in the Armed Services.  This included those who served in war overseas as well as those who trained and remained on the "home front".  So, about 2% of the AA population would have served in the military.  It would stand to reason that there were far fewer relapses among the 2% than the other 98%. It would be difficult to validate, even more difficult than tracking the first 100 or the 1st Edition authors and how they did in sobriety. These 12K were spread in over 500 groups as AA growth was expanding rapidly.
I would say it was anecdotal to make the point that the AA program works under any conditions.  I am always impressed by the patriotism and service of so many of our members during that era.

Roger

PS if this topic interests you and you can make it to the AA History Symposium in Sedona, I will be sharing on the subject of AA and the Military.


| 11157|11140|2016-01-27 14:38:39|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Marty Mann talk at 1980 AA International in New Orleans|
From Shakey Mike, cbudnick, Mike Barns, and ookpik46

.......................................................
From: Shakey Mike = (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

What recording do you need from there?
I have them packed away someplace. 
My sponsor at the time, harry the wino , spoke at the pioneers of AA Mtg there.
 -- Mike

.......................................................
From: (cbudnick@nc.rr.com)

Thanks Mike, I emailed Michelle at the GSO and unfortunately they don't have a copy of this talk. Hopefully someone may see this and have a copy. Thanks, Chris

==========================
Chris is here responding to the e-mail from
Mike Barns = mikeb384@verizon.net  (mikeb384 at verizon.net) which said
My company (AVW Audio Visual) recorded all the talks at the 1980 International. In 1986, we were going to clean out some of our old masters, and I talked to GSO to see if they wanted any of the tapes, and they said they had all they needed. So, in the years after that, I gave the tapes to various local groups until they were all gone. Mike Barns
==========================

But we get a different answer in an e-mail from: 
ookpik46

That conference was recorded by SOUNDImages, Inc., 
16204 E. Dorado Pl., Centennial CO, 80015.  
www.soundimnages.net


| 11158|11158|2016-01-27 15:04:25|AAHistoryLovers|Talks from the 50th AA International in Montreal in 1985|
From: Gary = (gelavallee at yahoo.ca)

Hi, I'd love to know if anyone has copies from the 1985 - 50th International convention in Montreal, or how I can obtain them.  I was one month sober at the time so... my memory is a little cloudy !
 -- Regards, Gary

| 11159|11149|2016-01-27 16:08:49|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Judge ourselves by intentions|
From: bear8512100 (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)

So did Covey lift the meme from Dr. Paul?

| 11160|11149|2016-01-27 16:09:30|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Judge ourselves by intentions|
Interesting question. I'm not at all sure that Stephen R. Covey got his phrase from reading Dr. Paul O.'s story, because Covey does talk about judging MYSELF by my intentions, but it is OTHERS whom I am trying to judge by their behavior. That is a different kind of contrast. But at any rate, just by the dates, you're right, it would have to have been Covey borrowing the basic phrase from Dr. Paul O. if there was any borrowing going on.

See the story from Dr. Paul O.
In the 3rd edition (1976) it is on page 450 ("Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict") 
and in the 4th edition (2001) on page 418 ("Acceptance Was the Answer") 
at the bottom of the first paragraph: 
“Before A.A., I judged myself by my intentions, while the world was judging me by my actions.”

The Covey version of the phrase comes from a book published in 2006:
Stephen M.R. Covey [Stephen R. Covey's son] with Rebecca R. Merrill, and Stephen R. Covey, The Speed of Trust: The One Thing that Changes Everything (2006)
“We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior. This is why, as we’ll discuss later, one of the fastest ways to restore trust is to make and keep commitments—even very small commitments—to ourselves and to others.” 
________________________________________

Several people have referred to Stephen R. Covey's book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, which was published in 1989, but the quote is not from that book. The closest we get to this phrase in The Seven Habits book is in the following three lines:

"It simply makes no difference how good the rhetoric is or even how good the intentions are; if there is little or no trust, there is no foundation for permanent success."

"Unaware, we project our intentions on their behavior and call ourselves objective"

"We project our intentions on the behavior of others."

| 11161|11158|2016-01-27 16:38:30|Thom Bone|Re: Talks from the 50th AA International in Montreal in 1985|

I have sets of all known recordings from 1950, 1955, 1960, 1965, 1970, 1975 and 2015. I am looking for 1980-2010. I am willing to trade anything I have that you might want or pay the cost to obtain copies. I'm trying to get a complete archive, it's one of my pet projects lately.

Thank you.

Please let me know. I can be reached at thombone@gmail.com

Thom R.

On Jan 27, 2016 3:04 PM, "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

From: Gary = <gelavallee@yahoo.ca> (gelavallee at yahoo.ca)

Hi, I'd love to know if anyone has copies from the 1985 - 50th International convention in Montreal, or how I can obtain them.  I was one month sober at the time so... my memory is a little cloudy !
 -- Regards, Gary

| 11162|11158|2016-01-28 10:19:25|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Talks from the 50th AA International in Montreal in 1985|
Apropos, I attended a standing only fringe meeting of atheists/agnostics at the 1990 Seattle reunion. Was anyone else there?
Laurie A.
 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 23:03:25 +0000
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Talks from the 50th AA International in Montreal in 1985

 
From: Gary = (gelavallee at yahoo.ca)

Hi, I'd love to know if anyone has copies from the 1985 - 50th International convention in Montreal, or how I can obtain them.  I was one month sober at the time so... my memory is a little cloudy !
 -- Regards, Gary


| 11163|11163|2016-02-01 20:35:57|cpknapp|Seeking Early Group List|

Hello Group,

I am hoping someone in this group is willing help me and the Area 74 Archives Committee reconstruct some of their early AA history.  I am looking for copies or transcripts of any early groups list from the Alcoholic Foundation/GSO between the dates of 1940 to 1960 or even 1970.  I used to have several of these lists but with the last couple of moves I have lost or misplaced them.  I do have one dated December 31, 1941.  It was attached to an early AA Bulletin and  listed  Wisconsin groups in Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, and Racine.   It also listed an isolated AA member in Green Bay.  The next copy I have is dated February 1946 published by the Alcoholic Foundation. This was actually in the form of a little booklet.

That is what I have at the present time.  Before I write the Archives in New York I was hoping to track down as much as I can from other sources before writing them.  Any help will be  greatly appreciated.  Here is where you may contact me: CPKNAPP@YAHOO.COM

Thanking all of you in advance

Charles from Wisconsin


| 11164|9054|2016-02-07 15:39:19|morningmael|Re: Why not a state/province system instead of numbered Areas?|
Arthur S.,

Thank you so much for the definitive history of the first General Service Conference. I stumbled across a copy of the original pamphlet THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE dated November, 1950 in the archives at NABA, a local Atlanta AA clubhouse. The pamphlet runs 28 pages (32 if blanks & title page included) and is printed on just one side, is single spaced, and includes subheadings. The dimensions of the pamphlet are 4 x 8 1/2 with three heavy duty staples. The edges of the pamphlet are uneven and the margins of the print are inconsistent almost omitting typed space. 

Seperately, some time ago I was given a 27 page, type-written, double spaced manuscript on 8 1/2 x 11 inch paper that shares the identical title and date, but without the subheadings. While the wording between the two is very similar, the wording is close but not identical. (Section III., bullet A "With the Assistance of the Foundation Office" in the pamphlet. In the manuscript: "With Foundation help"). Might the manuscript precede the pamphlet?

A side question: the pamphlet itself seems rather primitive in how it was assembled. Had the pamphlet been printed in a typical manner on both sides of a page, only 16 physical pages would be required with 32 sides. However, 32 pieces of paper were required to assemble this pamphlet, thus the big staples. I'm wondering if there was some special reason for this? Secrecy? Or possibly done outside of Headquarters due to the controversy regarding the subject matter? The pamphlet itself appears constructed entirely by people unfamiliar with professional techniques.

Gary Neidhardt
Lilburn, GA
| 11165|9054|2016-02-07 23:43:42|Thom Bone|Re: Why not a state/province system instead of numbered Areas?|

You might have a copy machine copy of that pamphlet. I have an original that was verified by GSO as such and it is printed on both sides and assembled like a true booklet. It also doesn't have the edge problem you're describing. It sounds like you found a copy that someone made and hand assembled.

Thom R.

On Feb 7, 2016 3:39 PM, "morningmael@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Arthur S.,


Thank you so much for the definitive history of the first General Service Conference. I stumbled across a copy of the original pamphlet THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE dated November, 1950 in the archives at NABA, a local Atlanta AA clubhouse. The pamphlet runs 28 pages (32 if blanks & title page included) and is printed on just one side, is single spaced, and includes subheadings. The dimensions of the pamphlet are 4 x 8 1/2 with three heavy duty staples. The edges of the pamphlet are uneven and the margins of the print are inconsistent almost omitting typed space. 

Seperately, some time ago I was given a 27 page, type-written, double spaced manuscript on 8 1/2 x 11 inch paper that shares the identical title and date, but without the subheadings. While the wording between the two is very similar, the wording is close but not identical. (Section III., bullet A "With the Assistance of the Foundation Office" in the pamphlet. In the manuscript: "With Foundation help"). Might the manuscript precede the pamphlet?

A side question: the pamphlet itself seems rather primitive in how it was assembled. Had the pamphlet been printed in a typical manner on both sides of a page, only 16 physical pages would be required with 32 sides. However, 32 pieces of paper were required to assemble this pamphlet, thus the big staples. I'm wondering if there was some special reason for this? Secrecy? Or possibly done outside of Headquarters due to the controversy regarding the subject matter? The pamphlet itself appears constructed entirely by people unfamiliar with professional techniques.

Gary Neidhardt
Lilburn, GA
| 11166|11166|2016-02-08 21:13:16|jimincancun|AA History Lovers Symposium Schedule|

I hope someone--maybe the presenters--can help with the program schedule for the AA Symposium in March. I will be there but am concerned that I might miss some presentations due to my flight plans. The Mago website only shows the topics and presenters but not the actual schedule of times and days.


In any case I will be arriving early(march 2) but not sure about my plans for leaving on Sunday the 6th.

TIA


jimincancun 

| 11167|11166|2016-02-08 21:21:07|Glenn Chesnut|Re: AA History Lovers Symposium Schedule|
A Symposium on AA History
March 4-6, 2016
 
Sedona Mago Retreat Center
3500 East Bill Gray Road
Sedona, AZ 86336
 
 
FRIDAY, MARCH 4
 
5:30 – 6:30 pm            Dinner
 
7:00 – 7:15 pm            Welcome and Introductions — Jay Stinnett
 
7:15 – 8:00 pm            Agnostica: Bringing A.A. to the Unbeliever — Joe Chisolm
 
8:00 – 8:30 pm            Ernie Kurtz: A Reverence for History, video interview moderated by William Schaberg & Kevin Hanlon
 
8:30 – 9:30 pm            Open A.A. Meeting
 
 
SATURDAY, MARCH 5
 
6:00 – 7:00 am            Open A.A. Meeting with Oxford-Group-style Quiet Time [meditation]
 
7:00 – 8:00 am            Breakfast
 
8:00 – 8:15 am            An Overview of Our Day — Bill Schaberg
 
8:15 – 9:00 am            June, 1945: Bill Wilson Leaves A.A. for a Real Job — Now What Happens? — Kevin Hanlon (co-director of the documentary film: Bill W.)
 
9:00 – 9:45 am            “King” Charles Towns of New York City — Gary W. Neidhardt
 
9:45 – 10:15 am          Break
 
10:15– 11:00 am         A Candid View of the “Lady Lush”: Marty Mann — Dr. Beverly Allen
Professor, Syracuse University: Playwright [An Evening With Marty Mann:  First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous]; Script Writer [Lady Lush]; Author [Mrs. Marty Mann: First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous]
 
11:00– 12:00 noon      An Interview with Rt. Rev. Ward Ewing —Jay Stinnett & Ward Ewing
(non-alcoholic Chair of the General Service Board from 2002 to 2013; Chair Emeritus thereafter)
 
12:00 – 1:30 pm          Lunch
 
1:30 – 2:15 pm            From Psychic to Psychedelic: Bill Wilson at the Frontiers of Consciousness — Jay Stinnett
 
2:15 – 2:30 pm            Break
 
2:30 – 3:15 pm            “In Their Own Words”: The Recovery of People of Color & LGBTQ in Early A.A. — Jackie Bendzinski & Glenn Chesnut
 
3:15 – 3:30 pm            Break
 
3:30 – 4:15 pm            Lois Wilson, Her Legacy at Stepping Stones — Sally Corbett (Executive Director, Stepping Stones, Bedford, NY)
 
5:30 – 6:30 pm            Dinner
 
6:45 – 9:00 pm            A Night at the Movies: Bill W. (Directors cut extended version) followed by a Q&A Session with Directors Kevin Hanlon & Dan Carracino
 
9:00 – 10:00 pm          Open A.A. Meeting
 
 
SUNDAY, MARCH 6
 
6:00 – 7:00 am            Open A.A. Meeting with Oxford-Group-style Quiet Time [meditation]
 
7:00 – 8:00 am            Breakfast
 
8:00 – 8:15 am            An Overview of Our Day — Bill Schaberg
 
8:15 – 9:00 am            A New Pair of Goggles: The Spread of A.A. Internationally by the Armed Forces — Roger Wheatley
 
9:00– 9:45 am Persistent Urban Legends in A.A. — Dan Carracino (co-director of the documentary film: Bill W.)
 
9:45– 10:15 am           Break
 
10:15 – 11:00 am        A Virtual Tour of “Wilson House” in  Dorset, Vermont — Julie King (Executive Director, Wilson House)
 
11:00 – 11:30 am        OPEN FORUM: Suggestions for Future Symposiums — Moderators: Jay Stinnett & William Schaberg
 
12:00 – 1:00 pm          Lunch


| 11168|11168|2016-02-14 10:22:24|rstonebraker2000|Did Bill W. express regret for not thanking Frank Buchman|

I remember reading somewhere that  Bill Wilson regretted he never personally thanked Frank Buchman for the Oxford Group's contribution to AA.  Could anyone point me to where I might have read this?


Please send answer to: rstonebraker212@comcast.net 


Thank you!


Bob S. 




| 11169|11168|2016-02-15 16:14:55|Arthur S|Re: Did Bill W. express regret for not thanking Frank Buchman|

Pass It On  pg 387

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 12:02 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Did Bill W. express regret for not thanking Frank Buchman

 

 

I remember reading somewhere that  Bill Wilson regretted he never personally thanked Frank Buchman for the Oxford Group's contribution to AA.  Could anyone point me to where I might have read this?

 

Please send answer to: rstonebraker212@comcast.net 

 

Thank you!

 

Bob S. 

 

 

 

| 11170|11170|2016-02-20 12:31:23|AAHistoryLovers|Did Bill Wilson know about George Gurdjieff?|
From: nick675833 (nick.glenister at btinternet.com)

Hi All, just wondered if Bill W. would have come into contact with or attended any seminars held in New York by George Gurdjieff (1866 or 1877 - 1949).

| 11171|11171|2016-02-20 12:47:27|AAHistoryLovers|How did Dorothy meet Leonard Strong?|
From: rodwoodard@yahoo.com (rodwoodard at yahoo.com)

I did a search, but found nothing on this. Given the role Leonard played in paying for Bill's bills at Towns hospital and in arranging the meeting with Willard Richardson of the Rockefeller men, it would be very interesting to know how Dorothy's and Leonard's paths crossed. 

Thanks!  Rodney
_________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

I'm a little confused here. Dr. Leonard V. Strong, Jr. (1899-1989), an osteopathic physician, was married to Bill Wilson's sister Dorothy.

Are you asking when and where Leonard and Dorothy first met and he started courting her?

| 11172|11172|2016-02-20 12:49:19|AAHistoryLovers|Short and long form of the Twelve Traditions|
From: glendaralls@yahoo.com (glendaralls at yahoo.com)

I recently heard that it was the short-form of the Traditions that was approved in 1950 and that there is no record of "official" adoption of the long form. I have always understood that we should look to the long form when resolving questions; it would seem that perhaps I have understood incorrectly. Can anyone clarify this for me?

| 11173|11172|2016-02-20 12:58:11|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Short and long form of the Twelve Traditions|
See chapter 30 of my book on Father Dowling. This book can be downloaded and read on your computer at http://hindsfoot.org/kdow1.html

=========================
Glenn F. Chesnut, Father Ed Dowling: Bill Wilson's Sponsor 
(Bloomington, Indiana: iUniverse, 2015).
CHAPTER 30
"Ratifying of the Twelve Traditions
and Dr. Bob’s Death: 1950"

The Twelve Traditions: The year 1950 marked a decisive turning point in A.A. history. When the Twelve Traditions were approved on Sunday, July 30, 1950 at the First International A.A. Convention in Cleveland, A.A. was given a sort of Bill of Rights, along with a set of extremely effective strategies for avoiding the most deeply disruptive disputes. And along with this, the Twelve Traditions also erected a protective fence around the fellowship to help keep it from being drawn too deeply into outside affairs. Taken all together, the Twelve Traditions functioned to guarantee the members’ basic human rights, minimize internal conflicts, and keep the movement away from over-involvement with external material things. 

If we lay out a time table for the writing, approval, and final publication of the Traditions in final book form, we can see that this process extended over eight years, from 1945 to 1953:

.......................................................
August 1945 — the Grapevine carried Bill W.’s first Traditions essay.

April 1946 — the Grapevine carried Bill W.’s essay “Twelve Suggested Points for A.A. Tradition,” later known as the long form of the Traditions.

1947 — at the suggestion of Earl Treat (the founder of A.A. in Chicago), Bill W. began developing the short form of the Traditions.

November 1949 — the short form of the Traditions was published in the Grapevine. The wording of the traditions in this article, with two exceptions,*  was taken over verbatim in the book called the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions when it was published in 1953.

July 28-30, 1950 — the First International A.A. Convention met in Cleveland, Ohio. The crowd gathered in the Cleveland Auditorium Music Hall gave its unanimous approval to a partly paraphrased version of the Twelve Traditions which Bill Wilson read to them.

mid-May, 1952 — Bill Wilson had finished the basic draft of the part of his book on the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions which dealt with the traditions, and sent a copy to Father Dowling. 

mid-June, 1952 — Father Dowling had a retinal stroke and ended up in the hospital unable to read. Some of his friends tape recorded the twelve chapters, and his sister Anna also read him portions of the manuscript out loud, at places where he wanted to be sure he understood exactly what was being said.

1953 — the publication of Bill Wilson’s book on the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.
.......................................................

*The phrase “primary spiritual aim” in Tradition Six was changed to “primary purpose,” and the phrase “principles above personalities” in Tradition Twelve was changed to “principles before personalities.”
=========================

=========================
SHORT FORM:
1.    Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
2.    For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
3.    The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
4.    Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
5.    Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
6.    An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
7.    Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
8.    Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
9.    A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.
10.   Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
11.   Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.
12.   Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
=========================

=========================
LONG FORM:
Our A.A. experience has taught us that:
1.    Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.
2.    For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.
3.    Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
4.    With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.
5.    Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose—that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
6.    Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business. Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well outside A.A.—and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind itself to no one.
7.    The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money, and authority.
8.    Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our usual A.A. "12 Step" work is never to be paid for.
9.    Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating leadership is the best. The small group may elect its secretary, the large group its rotating committee, and the groups of a large metropolitan area their central or intergroup committee, which often employs a full-time secretary. The trustees of the General Service Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A. contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principal newspaper, the A.A. Grapevine. All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is the key to their usefulness.
10.   No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues—particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.
11.   Our relations with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends recommend us.
12.    And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the principle of anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.
=========================

=========================
 VERSION ACTUALLY APPROVED IN 1950:
(from Arthur Sheehan’s time line)

Sunday, July 30, 1950 — Contrary to popular belief, the short form of the Traditions was not approved at the 1950 Convention. What was approved by the attendees was quite different than both the long and short forms of the Traditions we know today. Following talks on the Traditions by 6 members, Bill was asked to sum up the Traditions for the attendees. He did so by paraphrasing a variation of the Traditions:

“That, touching all matters affecting AA unity, our common welfare should come first; that AA has no human authority - only God as he may speak in our Group Conscience; that our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern; that any alcoholic may become an AA member if he says so — we exclude no one; that every AA Group may manage its own affairs as it likes, provided surrounding groups are not harmed thereby; that we AAs have but a single aim, the carrying of our message to the alcoholic who still suffers; that in consequence we cannot finance, endorse or otherwise lend the name 'Alcoholics Anonymous' to any other enterprise, however worthy; that AA, as such, ought to remain poor, lest problems of property, management and money divert us from our sole aim; that we ought to be self-supporting, gladly paying our small expenses ourselves; that AA should remain forever non-professional, ordinary 12th Step work never to be paid for; that, as a Fellowship, we should never be organized but may nevertheless create responsible Service Boards or Committees to insure us better propagation and sponsorship and that these agencies may engage fulltime workers for special tasks; that our public relations ought to proceed upon the principle of attraction rather than promotion, it being better to let our friends recommend us; that personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and pictures ought to be strictly maintained as our best protection, against the temptations of power or personal ambition; and finally, that anonymity before the general public is the spiritual key to all our Traditions, ever reminding us we are always to place principles before personalities that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all."

Notably missing from what Bill recited were the principles embodied in Tradition Ten of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA name into public controversy. Nevertheless, the Traditions as recited by Bill were approved unanimously. (LOH 121, AACOA 43, PIO 338, UPBP)
=========================

| 11174|11174|2016-02-20 12:58:54|jeffbruce1964|The 164|
Page 1 in the first printing of the First Edition is the beginning of the Dr.'s Opinion, and Bill's Story begins on p.10.  "A Vision for You" ends on p. 179.  I have two questions:
  1. Is there any record of a discussion of why Bill (I presume it was Bill) decided to separate The Doctor's Opinion by changing the pagination?
  2. Was this done at the same time as the pagination in what we call the 164 was shrunk from 169 pages to 164 pages?


| 11175|11170|2016-02-21 09:56:33|Matt Dingle|Re: Did Bill Wilson know about George Gurdjieff?|
Nick,

Bill what have certainly known of the Gurdjeiff work through such associates as Gerald Heard, Aldous Huxley (both of which attended seminars given by Ouspensky in London), Tom Powers (who wrote about the 4 Way concepts and AA -- and who also knew Dr. Welch who was G's doctor) and from the book The Imprisoned Splendor by Raynor Johnson -- which, was one of Bill's favorite books (as per Tom Powers). Johnson's book has (I believe) a brief mention of the four states of consciousness as given by Gurdjeiff. Hope this helps. 
Matt
P.S. I would highly doubt that Wilson met Gurdjeiff directly -- particularly since Heard would have discouraged this.  

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 20, 2016, at 3:30 PM, AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers] <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

From: nick675833 <nick.glenister@btinternet.com> (nick.glenister at btinternet.com)

Hi All, just wondered if Bill W. would have come into contact with or attended any seminars held in New York by George Gurdjieff (1866 or 1877 - 1949).

| 11176|11176|2016-02-21 09:56:56|Tom Hickcox|Fwd: AA Atheists and Human Rights|

FWIW, an interesting article, I think.

T

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: AA Atheists and Human Rights
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:00:28 +0000
From: AA Agnostica
Reply-To: AA Agnostica
To: cometkazie1@cox.net


AA Atheists and Human Rights
View this email in your browser
Hi folks,

On May 31, 2011, two agnostic AA groups were booted out of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) Intergroup and off of the area AA meeting lists.

One of the founders of one of the groups booted out by the GTA Intergroup decided to challenge the Intergroup decision. He lodged a complaint with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. His argument was very simple: If AA is for everyone, if it is not religious, then it was a violation of the Human Rights Code to exclude his agnostic AA group.

To date, there have been two hearings on the subject.

The second hearing was on January 13. You can read the interim decision based upon that second hearing right here: AA Atheists and Human Rights.

Regards,

Roger.

A daily newspaper, the Toronto Sun, published an article online on Friday, February 19, and on Page 3 of its Saturday edition. The subtitle of the paper edition was: "Agnostic alcoholics booted from AA take organization to human rights tribunal".

You can read that here: Alcoholics Anonymous accused of discrimination.

| 11177|11177|2016-02-22 09:00:53|DALOZANO|Barry Leach and his Royalties for Living Sober|

Was Barry Leach ever awarded the royalties he requested from AAWS on Living Sober? 

| 11178|11178|2016-02-26 12:15:43|Glenn Chesnut|Toronto Agnostic altered version Twelve Steps|
An explanatory note from Glenn C., Moderator, AAHistoryLovers

AA TORONTO AGNOSTICS
http://www.aatorontoagnostics.com/

And one of their versions of the twelve steps, which they insist is an "interpretation" only
http://www.aatorontoagnostics.com/agnostic-12-steps.html

They argue on the AA Toronto Agnostics website that:

.......................................................
In accordance with Greater Toronto Area (GTA) Intergroup Procedures and Guidelines, "An AA group needs to adopt only the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions and 12 Concepts of AA, as adopted by the AA General Service Board, in order to be recognized as an AA group by GTA Intergroup," Toronto and area agnostic groups meet this standard.
.......................................................

And then they go on to say:

.......................................................
The following agnostic interpretation of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous is one of many. It may or may not be read at Toronto agnostic AA groups. It is posted here for information only. AA World Services and GTA Toronto Intergroup neither endorses nor oppose such an interpretation. To ensure there is no confusion, this interpretation of the Twelve Steps of AA IS NOT A.A. Conference Approved literature. A.A. World Service has neither reviewed nor approved this content and does not necessarily agree with the views expressed herein.

THE AGNOSTIC TWELVE STEPS
There are several agnostic versions of the 12 Steps.
This is one used by Beyond Belief in Toronto.

1.    We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable.

2.    Came to accept and to understand that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.

3.    Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the A.A. program.

4.    Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5.    Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.

6.    Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.

7.    Humbly sought to have our shortcomings removed.

8.    Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

9.    Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10.  Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11.  Sought through mindful inquiry and meditation to improve our spiritual awareness, seeking only for knowledge of our rightful path in life and the power to carry that out.

12.  Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
.......................................................

| 11179|11179|2016-02-26 12:16:02|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA Atheists and Human Rights|
From: Dringbloom  
(doris.ringbloom at gmail.com)

Yes, interesting but discouraging. The fact that the defense is arguing that a belief in God is required, defeats the core argument. Yes, obviously examples can and will be found in literature and historical precedence that a belief in God is NOT necessary. This is a false and unsupportable defense tactic.

The main defense is and must be the inherent unity of the 12 steps. Example after example, groups have taken the 12 steps, freely offered by AA, and changed the wording to become a DIFFERENT 12 step entity. Whether the change is in what we are powerless over (drugs, emotions, sex, gambling, etc., etc.) or, if the change is in what the solution is (Jesus Christ for Celebrate Recovery), the 12 steps can be used by other groups. Nowhere in history, other than the changes made by Bill Wilson, has the wording of the 12 steps been changed and included as part of AA.

The issue with the agnostics and atheists is not whether they can be a member of AA. Of course they can, as evidenced and supported by our literature and examples. The issue is whether ANYONE can change the wording of the 12 steps and still be called an AA group. If that is allowed, then the door is open for any and all words to be changed ... a slippery slope.

The argument is not about Human Rights, religion, atheism, exclusivity or definition of God. The argument is what is AA ... a fellowship of people who carry the message of THESE steps ... not some other steps.

=========================
REPLYING TO  Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
Tommy referred us to an article in AA Agnostica: On May 31, 2011, two agnostic AA groups were booted out of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) Intergroup and off of the area AA meeting lists. One of the founders of one of the groups booted out by the GTA Intergroup decided to challenge the Intergroup decision. He lodged a complaint with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. His argument was very simple: If AA is for everyone, if it is not religious, then it was a violation of the Human Rights Code to exclude his agnostic AA group.
To date, there have been two hearings on the subject. The second hearing was on January 13. You can read the interim decision based upon that second hearing right here:
"AA Atheists and Human Rights" by Roger C. (February 21, 2016)
http://aaagnostica.org/2016/02/21/aa-atheists-and-human-rights/
=========================

| 11180|11179|2016-02-26 12:16:57|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA Atheists and Human Rights|
From welch@a-1associates, aamax69kiss, and garkb
.......................................................

From: (welch at a-1associates.com)
Where in AA history does anyone have the right to exclude atheist groups? I’m not an atheist but if we exclude them, where do we stop?  A classic “Slippery slope!”
.......................................................
From: aamax69kiss (aamax at xmission.com)
Do they have a desire to stop drinking?  Why would they get kicked out?  Makes no sense to me.
.......................................................
From: garkb (gk at kitcarson.net)
Labeling a group as Atheist or Agnostic would be the same as labeling it Catholic, Hindu or Jewish or Muslim. In AA I think it would all be in poor taste, as would demanding that all have a Higher Power. -- G

=========================
REPLYING TO  Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
Tommy referred us to an article in AA Agnostica: On May 31, 2011, two agnostic AA groups were booted out of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) Intergroup and off of the area AA meeting lists. One of the founders of one of the groups booted out by the GTA Intergroup decided to challenge the Intergroup decision. He lodged a complaint with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. His argument was very simple: If AA is for everyone, if it is not religious, then it was a violation of the Human Rights Code to exclude his agnostic AA group.
To date, there have been two hearings on the subject. The second hearing was on January 13. You can read the interim decision based upon that second hearing right here:
"AA Atheists and Human Rights" by Roger C. (February 21, 2016)
http://aaagnostica.org/2016/02/21/aa-atheists-and-human-rights/
=========================

| 11181|11179|2016-02-26 12:17:07|Glenn Chesnut|Re: AA Atheists and Human Rights|
From: Jim S. = (james.scarpine at verizon.net)

Even more interesting is the fact that atheists are the first to scream "Tradition!" if a group calls itself Christian AA or Jewish AA.

Even more interesting is the following, an article in the Huffington Post on numerous groups which are now calling themselves "Atheist Churches" in London, England; in Calfornia (San Francisco, Los Angeles, and San Diego); in New York City; all large cosmopolitan cities, but also in places like Nashville, Tennessee; Strongsville, Ohio; and Charlotte, North Carolina; see

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/atheist-church/

.......................................................
From Glenn C. the moderator: there are also atheist churches in Oakland, California; Houston, Texas; Lake Charles, Louisiana; Seattle, Washington; Portland, Oregon; etc.
Also look at the Atheist/Agnostic wing of the Unitarian/Universalist Church in the United States: Joseph Walker, the father of the author of Twenty-Four Hours a Day, was a prominent Unitarian atheist and humanist, and that wing of the church is still very much alive and well today.

| 11182|11179|2016-02-26 12:19:26|AAHistoryLovers|Re: AA Atheists and Human Rights|
From greggo21286, rogerconner, and honest03060

.......................................................
From: (greggo21286 at yahoo.com)
I think the article begs the question. What was the rational for excluding these groups?
.......................................................
From: rogerconnor2000 (rmcusa37 at gmail.com)
The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. We may not know the whole Toronto story. -- Roger
.......................................................
From: (honest03060 at yahoo.com)
Why can't they start their own organization?

=========================
REPLYING TO  Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
Tommy referred us to an article in AA Agnostica: On May 31, 2011, two agnostic AA groups were booted out of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) Intergroup and off of the area AA meeting lists. One of the founders of one of the groups booted out by the GTA Intergroup decided to challenge the Intergroup decision. He lodged a complaint with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. His argument was very simple: If AA is for everyone, if it is not religious, then it was a violation of the Human Rights Code to exclude his agnostic AA group.
To date, there have been two hearings on the subject. The second hearing was on January 13. You can read the interim decision based upon that second hearing right here:
"AA Atheists and Human Rights" by Roger C. (February 21, 2016)
http://aaagnostica.org/2016/02/21/aa-atheists-and-human-rights/
=========================

| 11183|11183|2016-02-26 12:36:36|AAHistoryLovers|Stand in the way of someone else's growth|
From: tiggering1954 (rbfishing at panhandle.rr.com)

Greetings All … Trying to find quote about the two worst things we can do, stand in the way of someone else's spiritual growth or mine. Anybody know where this quote comes from or what the proper quote actually is? Is it from Dr. Bob?

.......................................................
From Glenn C., the moderator: it doesn't really sound to me like the way Dr. Bob talked. I can't think of any place where anyone remembered him being preoccupied with "standing in the way" of someone else's spiritual growth. It is listed as an AA saying however in several places on the internet, always with this wording:

"There are only two sins: To stand in the way of someone else's growth, or to stand in the way of your own."

SEE FOR EXAMPLE





| 11184|11184|2016-02-26 12:37:14|bernadette macleod|Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists|
As a member of one of the many groups who voted for the delisting of the agnostic/atheist groups from being included in our Greater Toronto AA Intergroup and our AA meeting lists, I, among others held firmly to the belief that AA's Steps, Traditions and Concepts are sacrosanct  
to our worldwide Alcoholics Anonymous. These groups insisted on changing it all to exclude the spiritual part of our program. They were encouraged to start their own groups and would be free to plagiarize our Steps, Traditions and Concepts as much as they wished.  But they could not call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous.
 
Bernadette m.
king city group
ontario canada
| 11185|11184|2016-02-26 13:26:59|cugjp1|Re: Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists|
I think this does raise an interesting question in regard to AA structure. Some of the activities taking place support Clarence S thinking when he challenged the GSO etc.. structure. If a governing body exists, it could becomes the inadvertent mechanism for destruction. This is part of the question. You have a legal matter being taken to the GSO. If groups are truly autonomous, shouldn't the discussion stay local to that group. Often the argument will then move to wether this affects AA as a whole, and then we move into opinion. If a group fights to be part of a meeting list aren't they volunterily associating with an entity (intergroup) that is not an AA group but a clearing house and doesnt the nature of that clearing house exclude it from the "actions" of GSO or any group? I know GSO states that group, dist, area, central or intergroup are all autonomous. Funds are atonomous, specific services are also atonomous. 


Just thoughts?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "bernadette macleod bernadette.john@sympatico.ca [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date:02/26/2016 2:34 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists

 

As a member of one of the many groups who voted for the delisting of the agnostic/atheist groups from being included in our Greater Toronto AA Intergroup and our AA meeting lists, I, among others held firmly to the belief that AA's Steps, Traditions and Concepts are sacrosanct  
to our worldwide Alcoholics Anonymous. These groups insisted on changing it all to exclude the spiritual part of our program. They were encouraged to start their own groups and would be free to plagiarize our Steps, Traditions and Concepts as much as they wished.  But they could not call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous.
 
Bernadette m.
king city group
ontario canada

| 11186|11183|2016-02-26 13:27:08|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Stand in the way of someone else's growth|
From: jimincancun (jimincancun at gmail.com)

Page 542 BB

| 11187|11171|2016-02-26 13:37:51|AAHistoryLovers|Re: How did Dorothy meet Leonard Strong?|
From: rodwoodard (rodwoodard at yahoo.com)

Bill Wilson and Dorothy were brother and sister (she was four years younger than Bill). Did the fact that Dorothy and Bill's mother had become an osteopathic physician have anything to do with the way that Dorothy met the osteopathic physician Leonard Strong and ended up marrying him? How in fact did Dorothy and Leonard meet and subsequently become married?

It seems more than just a coincidence that Bill Wilson had a mother and a brother-in-law who were both osteopathic physicians. What was the connection? 

Rod
| 11188|11188|2016-02-26 13:43:26|jeffbruce1964|Common AA vocabulary|
I understand that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.  I just don't understand what  "membership" means.  Indeed, I know many people who have attended AA meetings on a regular basis for months and whose lives are substantially improved for having spent time in meetings, but who do not see lifelong abstinence as a goal.  To say that they are not members must mean something, but what?

Tradition 9 states: "AA, as such, ought never be organized...."  How is that any different from "AA ought never be organized?"  Is there any discussion anywhere about what "as such" means?
| 11189|11177|2016-02-26 14:20:38|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Barry Leach and his Royalties for Living Sober|
THE QUESTION: Was Barry Leach ever awarded the royalties he requested from AAWS on Living Sober?

From lefthanded_ny, martin0858, and toronto_joe_c

.......................................................
From: lefthanded_ny (arthur.s at live.com)

No - he received a flat fee of $4,000 in 1974 (equivalent to about $19,000 today)
.......................................................
From: martinb0858 (martinb0858 at yahoo.com)

No he wasn't paid any royalties.
.......................................................
From: toronto_joe_c (omyword at yahoo.com)

I believe that the ruling was that he was a staff writer and that AAWS held the copywrite. Someone here might have the court details.  He wrote it on company time, so to speak. That book was my go-to during anxious early AA days. We still read it at my home group. -- Joe C., Toronto, Canada

| 11190|11183|2016-02-26 14:20:57|jimincancun|Re: Stand in the way of someone else's growth|
Sorry again. That is pg. 542 in the 3rd edition that I use. Hope to see some of you soon.



Enviado desde mi Samsung Mobile de Telcel5555😀😀


-------- Original message --------
From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date: 26/02/2016 4:24 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Stand in the way of someone else's growth

 

From: jimincancun (jimincancun at gmail.com)

Page 542 BB

| 11191|11184|2016-02-26 14:21:59|al Welch|Re: Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists|

Thanks for the info!

 

From: bernadette macleod bernadette.john@sympatico.ca [AAHistoryLovers] [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 3:34 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists

 




As a member of one of the many groups who voted for the delisting of the agnostic/atheist groups from being included in our Greater Toronto AA Intergroup and our AA meeting lists, I, among others held firmly to the belief that AA's Steps, Traditions and Concepts are sacrosanct  
to our worldwide Alcoholics Anonymous. These groups insisted on changing it all to exclude the spiritual part of our program. They were encouraged to start their own groups and would be free to plagiarize our Steps, Traditions and Concepts as much as they wished.  But they could not call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous.
 
Bernadette m.
king city group
ontario canada




| 11192|11179|2016-02-26 14:23:04|James Ivey|Re: AA Atheists and Human Rights|

I agree with this.  Being an AA group means following the AA steps, not the principles of the steps.

What’s wrong with customizing the steps however they like and calling themselves Agnostics Anonymous?


From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA Atheists and Human Rights

 

 

From: Dringbloom <doris.ringbloom@gmail.com

(doris.ringbloom at gmail.com)

 

Yes, interesting but discouraging. The fact that the defense is arguing that a belief in God is required, defeats the core argument. Yes, obviously examples can and will be found in literature and historical precedence that a belief in God is NOT necessary. This is a false and unsupportable defense tactic.

 

The main defense is and must be the inherent unity of the 12 steps. Example after example, groups have taken the 12 steps, freely offered by AA, and changed the wording to become a DIFFERENT 12 step entity. Whether the change is in what we are powerless over (drugs, emotions, sex, gambling, etc., etc.) or, if the change is in what the solution is (Jesus Christ for Celebrate Recovery), the 12 steps can be used by other groups. Nowhere in history, other than the changes made by Bill Wilson, has the wording of the 12 steps been changed and included as part of AA.

 

The issue with the agnostics and atheists is not whether they can be a member of AA. Of course they can, as evidenced and supported by our literature and examples. The issue is whether ANYONE can change the wording of the 12 steps and still be called an AA group. If that is allowed, then the door is open for any and all words to be changed ... a slippery slope.

 

The argument is not about Human Rights, religion, atheism, exclusivity or definition of God. The argument is what is AA ... a fellowship of people who carry the message of THESE steps ... not some other steps.

| 11193|11183|2016-02-26 19:15:47|Kim Rowe (mobile)|Re: Stand in the way of someone else's growth|
One Law and Two Sins

I have seen that there is only one law, the law of love, and there are only two sins; the first is to interfere with the growth of another human being, and the second is to interfere with one's own growth.

"He Who Loses His Life"
Alcoholics Anonymous
They Lost Nearly All
551 in 2nd edition, 541 in 3rd edition
E.B.R., "Bob," New York City


Sent via mobile phone


-------- Original message --------
From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
Date: 02/26/2016 1:34 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Stand in the way of someone else's growth

 

From: tiggering1954 (rbfishing at panhandle.rr.com)

Greetings All … Trying to find quote about the two worst things we can do, stand in the way of someone else's spiritual growth or mine. Anybody know where this quote comes from or what the proper quote actually is? Is it from Dr. Bob?

.......................................................
From Glenn C., the moderator: it doesn't really sound to me like the way Dr. Bob talked. I can't think of any place where anyone remembered him being preoccupied with "standing in the way" of someone else's spiritual growth. It is listed as an AA saying however in several places on the internet, always with this wording:

"There are only two sins: To stand in the way of someone else's growth, or to stand in the way of your own."

SEE FOR EXAMPLE





| 11194|11184|2016-02-26 19:18:40|Arthur S|Re: Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists|

If the Steps, Traditions and Concepts are sacrosanct to AA members in the Toronto area why don’t they practice them instead of taking dubious refuge behind them to rationalize a decision that goes completely against the grain of AA’s long-standing historic practices of inclusion. What happened to the notions of “patience, tolerance, kindness and love”?

 

Did all the groups serviced by the Greater Toronto AA Intergroup office have an opportunity to vote based on their group conscience decision and in writing? Was the decision to delist the groups settled by substantial unanimity (i.e. a 2/3  majority). Actually a decision of that severity and importance should have sustained a 3/4 majority.

 

Was the Intergroup Office aware that the AA Service Manual (approved by the General Service Conference of the US and Canada) and other literature defines an AA group as follows: The Long Form of Tradition 3 and a section of Warranty 6, Concept 12, aptly describe what an AA group is and it states in Tradition 3: (all capitalization emphasis mine)

 

Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence, we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or CONFORMITY. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.”

 

(And it says in Warranty 6): “… much attention has been drawn to the extraordinary liberties which the AA Traditions accord to the individual member and to his group: no penalties to be inflicted for non-conformity to AA principles;  no fees or dues to be levied - voluntary contributions only; no member to be expelled from AA - membership always to be the choice of the individual; each AA group to conduct its internal affairs as it wishes - it being merely requested to abstain from acts that might injure AA as a whole; and finally that any group of alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that, as a group, they have no other purpose or affiliation.”

 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 2:34 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists

 

As a member of one of the many groups who voted for the delisting of the agnostic/atheist groups from being included in our Greater Toronto AA Intergroup and our AA meeting lists, I, among others held firmly to the belief that AA's Steps, Traditions and Concepts are sacrosanct  
to our worldwide Alcoholics Anonymous. These groups insisted on changing it all to exclude the spiritual part of our program. They were encouraged to start their own groups and would be free to plagiarize our Steps, Traditions and Concepts as much as they wished.  But they could not call themselves Alcoholics Anonymous.
 
Bernadette m.
king city group
ontario canada

| 11195|11195|2016-02-26 19:19:45|Robert Stonebraker|Altering our Twelve Steps|

There exists a thought that AA can only be destroyed from the inside.  It seems to me that the agnostic movement of altering our 12-Steps to be Godless is dangerously destructive.  Consider the plight of a newcomer whose only hope is finding and using God, but then unfortunately being duped into the agnostic’s new-fangled 12-step process.    Why, even our Big Book would make little sense to him or her.

 

This is analogous to Clarence Snyder’s “light bulb allegory:”   

 

Step Two: Came to believe that a light bulb could restore me to sanity.

 

Step Three: Made a decision to turn my will and life to the care of a light bulb.

 

Step Five: Admitted to my light bulb, to myself, and to another human being the exact nature of my wrongs.

 

Step Six: Became entirely willing to have my light bulb remove my defects of character. . . . etc.

 

A new door may be open.  I hope it won’t.

 

Bob S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

| 11196|11177|2016-02-27 12:08:13|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Barry Leach and his Royalties for Living Sober|
THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTS

BROWN UNIVERSITY ARCHIVES

From: Martin B = martinb0858@yahoo.com (martinb0858 at yahoo.com)

Barry Leach, 'Living Sober' Royalties. Collection of pertinent documents.: 1982-83




| 11197|11177|2016-02-29 09:59:41|Martin B|Re: Barry Leach and his Royalties for Living Sober|
I appears that the link did not make it to the group.



| 11198|11198|2016-03-11 17:29:55|AAHistoryLovers|Symposium on AA History at Sedona|
The third Symposium on AA History was held this past weekend in Sedona, Arizona with a large and enthusiastic group of participants, dedicated AA historians all, meeting under blue skies in the middle of the sunny high desert region to the south of the Grand Canyon. BILL SCHABERG and JAY STINNETT presided.
 
The long line of presentations included:

# A detailed and evidence-based refutation of the story that Bill was a serial womanizer (together with the quite different and fully documented account of his relationship with Helen Wynn, who received 10% of Bill's royalties, including a video-taped interview with Helen's son).

# The story of how Bill actually formally resigned  from AA in 1945, a resignation that was initially accepted by the Board, but then delayed by Bill's desire to first establish a General Service Conference before he left.

# A detailed look at the life and career of Charles Towns (a major figure in U.S. history in the area of alcoholism treatment and in starting the outlawing of drugs and narcotics in the U.S.), who was the owner of the New York hospital where Bill W. got sober.

# Readings from a script based on the life of Marty Mann

# Ward Ewing (4 years as the Chair of the General Service Board) visited us and was interviewed about a number of topics.

# The history of AA’s evolving relationship with atheists and agnostics in the program, including the numerous attempts to produce an official AA pamphlet for atheists and agnostics, and what happened to these attempts.

# Stories of the early gay, lesbian and black leaders and teachers in AA, including Marty Mann (founder of the National Council on Alcoholism), Barry Leach (author of Living Sober), LeClair Bissell (famous psychiatrist and addictions treatment expert), Jimmy Miller (First Lady of Black AA), and Joe McQuany (of the Joe and Charlie tapes).

# A photographic account from the director of Stepping Stones: a look at Lois Wilson’s life, and the legacy she has left us at Stepping Stones.

# From the manager of Wilson House in East Dorset, Vermont: photographs and descriptions of Bill W.'s birthplace.

# The moving story of the way U.S. military personnel, through wartime and peace. spread AA meetings all over the U.S. and then all over the world.

# An account of Bill W.'s fascination with psychic phenomena (from ouija boards to the Rhine parapsychology experiments on extrasensory perception at Duke University), with the question of life after death, and with psychedelic drugs like LSD.

# The famous television recording of AA's great historian Ernie Kurtz talking about how to do good AA historical research.
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/morepix02.html

# A preview of the new revised director's cut of the television documentary "Bill W." was presented by Kevin Hanlon and Dan Carracino. We got to see all two hours of this masterly production, the best  and most historically accurate cinematic life of Bill Wilson yet produced, and talk to the two producers. If all goes well, people all over the U.S. will be able to see this film this coming Fall.
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/morepix03.html

It was also a wonderful opportunity for members of the AA History Lovers to get to meet and talk with one another in person.

Dates are now being arranged for the 2017 Symposium and an agenda is being planned, and will be announced here in the AAHistoryLovers within two or three months.

========================================
Many AAHL members are also strongly involved in the
NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOP which will be holding its

20th National A.A. Archives Workshop
September 8-11, 2016
Concord, California
(in the East Bay area around San Francisco)
http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/2016/index.htm
========================================

| 11199|11184|2016-03-11 18:51:41|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists|
A number of long messages on this topic from Peter N. (Vancouver BC), Bob K (gurubob65), honest03060, aamax69kiss, Jon S., conrad.gerry, gcb900 (Baileygc23), toronto_joe_c, luvwindnwater, barney52278 (rowevan), Dringbloom (doris.ringbloom), aliden2 (bxdennis), stevencalderbank52

May be downloaded as an MS Word .doc file at

See the section of this document dated March 11, 2016

| 11200|11184|2016-03-11 18:55:24|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Toronto AA and Agnostic/Atheists|
From: eze_kiel03 (jennylaurie1at hotmail.com)

(AND SEVERAL OTHER MEMBERS EXPRESSED THEIR SUPPORT FOR ARTHUR'S POSITION)

Well said Arthur, you speak my mind.

The Trustees and GSO must be absolutely thrilled to be dragged into this furore!

In 2000 I wrote to GSO in New York about a dispute among groups in Britain and received this (redacted) reply dated October 18, 2000: 

'I currently co-ordinate the Public Information assignment in the NY GSO and have become quite adept at quoting our Tenth Tradition to journalists who contact the office looking for AA's opinion on varied issues, some of which you mention in your letter. There was a recent TV program in the US which was highly critical of the AA program and generated anger and antagonism from many quarters in the AA Fellowship. The numerous requests for this AA office to react or defend Alcoholics Anonymous were met with a gentle reminder about the Tenth Tradition. 

We also pointed out Bill W.'s guidance in Concept 12, and I quote: "Let us suppose that AA does fall under sharp public attack or heavy ridicule; and let us take the particular case where such pronouncements happen to have little or no justification in fact. Almost without exception it can be confidently estimated that our best defense in these situations would be no defense whatsoever - namely complete silence at the public level." 

This public relations policy is one which we at this office heartily endorse. We also believe that it ought to serve as a thoughtful guide to all members of the Fellowship. Though a response to an outside criticism may of course be done on a personal level, the mere fact of offering an opinion as an AA member may lead to a public discussion where the line between the personal and the Fellowship opinion may become blurry in the public's mind.' Signed ....

'Beyond a Higher Power, as each of us may vision Him (sic), AA must never as a society, enter the field of dogma or theology. We can never become a religion in that sense, lest we kill our usefulness by getting bogged down in theological contention.' (Letter dated 1954 in As Bill Sees It, 116)

===============================
WRITTEN IN RESPONSE TO AAHL message no. 11194 from ARTHUR S.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/11194

If the Steps, Traditions and Concepts are sacrosanct to AA members in the Toronto area why don’t they practice them instead of taking dubious refuge behind them to rationalize a decision that goes completely against the grain of AA’s long-standing historic practices of inclusion. What happened to the notions of “patience, tolerance, kindness and love”?
 
Did all the groups serviced by the Greater Toronto AA Intergroup office have an opportunity to vote based on their group conscience decision and in writing? Was the decision to delist the groups settled by substantial unanimity (i.e. a 2/3  majority). Actually a decision of that severity and importance should have sustained a 3/4 majority.
 
Was the Intergroup Office aware that the AA Service Manual (approved by the General Service Conference of the US and Canada) and other literature defines an AA group as follows: The Long Form of Tradition 3 and a section of Warranty 6, Concept 12, aptly describe what an AA group is and it states in Tradition 3: (all capitalization emphasis mine)
 
“Our membership ought to INCLUDE ALL who suffer from alcoholism. Hence, WE MAY REFUSE NONE who wish to recover. NOR OUGHT AA MEMBERSHIP EVER DEPEND UPON money or CONFORMITY. ANY TWO OR THREE ALCOHOLICS GATHERED TOGETHER FOR SOBRIETY MAY CALL THEMSELVES AN AA GROUP, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.”
 
(And it says in Warranty 6): “… Much attention has been drawn to the EXTRAORDINARY LIBERTIES which the AA TRADITIONS accord to the individual member and to his group: NO PENALTIES TO BE INFLICTED FOR NON-CONFORMITY to AA principles;  no fees or dues to be levied - voluntary contributions only; NO MEMBER TO BE EXPELLED FROM AA - MEMBERSHIP ALWAYS TO BE THE CHOICE OF THE INDIVIDUAL; EACH AA GROUP TO CONDUCT ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS AS IT WISHES - it being merely requested to abstain from acts that might injure AA as a whole; and finally that ANY GROUP OF ALCOHOLICS GATHERED TOGETHER FOR SOBRIETY MAY CALL THEMSELVES AN AA GROUP provided that, as a group, they have no other purpose or affiliation.”

| 11201|11201|2016-03-12 12:03:14|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Common AA vocabulary: AA as such|
From Sue (suzsmiff) and dtswereme

.......................................................
From: suzsmiff (suzsmiff at yahoo.com)

Hi Jeff, Hope the following helps with the "as such" vocabulary. This is taken from  AAWS's "The Twelve Traditions Illustrated, A Distillation of A.A. Experience." With our groups, and especially our General Service Structure leads us to the spiritual principles. 12 Concepts. Chaos, a  state we're used to in 24/7 active alcoholism. However trying to carry out tasks as a Group, District, an Area, GSO, AAWS, AA Grapevine we need some organization, but it's more aligned with the spiritual vs corporate moguls after money, fame, and the like.

Somehow I think Bill's own Wall Street experience before the Great Crash of 1929, and with Rockefeller's saying whoa, hold on early on. Don't goof it up, we sure do not want anything diverting us from out primary purpose. Stick with some organization  AAs entrusts us to do let's say an Area like our Virginia 71 with over 2,400 groups to the spiritual bonds that connect all of us.     "The words “Let’s keep it simple” were the last Bill W. heard from his fellow founder of A.A., shortly before Dr. Bob’s death in 1950.

Aware that “it” mean our recovery program, Bill later wrote, “We need to distinguish sharply between spiritual simplicity and functional simplicity. …When we get into questions of action by groups, by areas, and by A.A. as a whole, we find that we must to some extent organize to carry the message—or else face chaos. And chaos is not simplicity.”

When Tradition Nine speaks of “A.A. as such,” it goes to the heart of the A.A. experience, to the “spiritual simplicity” of one alcoholic’s saying, silently perhaps, “Help!” and another alcoholic’s answering, “I know how you feel. We’re here to help you.” Such a relationship couldn’t be organized. Or could it?  A nonmember familiar with modern business procedures might examine the A.A. practice of sponsorship and see it as a haphazard operation. How about computerizing it? Then an A.A. behind an intergroup desk might say, “So you want help? First, you need the right sponsor. We have personality profiles of all our sponsors fed into our computer. We’ll match you up to the best one for you if you’ll just fill out this questionnaire. …Where are you going? Come back!” That would be an attempt to organize “A.A. as such.” (Please—nobody get any ideas!)

But in “action by groups,” we find that we do need some degree of organization. If everybody thinks somebody else is going to make the coffee, what’s the result? No coffee! To avoid such a disaster, one or more members agree." In Loving Service and Gratitude, Sue

.......................................................
From: dtswereme (dtswereme at yahoo.com)

Organized seems to imply that while the three New York entities must (to operate as 501C corporations)  be legally "organized," the fellowship (as I define it is: you, me and the drunk sitting next to you) is AA "as such."

.......................................................
The original message (February 26, 2016) was from 
(jeffbruce1964 at yahoo.com)

Tradition 9 states: "AA, as such, ought never be organized...."  How is that any different from "AA ought never be organized"?  Is there any discussion anywhere about what "as such" means? 

I understand that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.  I just don't understand what  "membership" means.  Indeed, I know many people who have attended AA meetings on a regular basis for months and whose lives are substantially improved for having spent time in meetings, but who do not see lifelong abstinence as a goal.  To say that they are not members must mean something, but what?

| 11202|11202|2016-03-12 13:02:20|happycycler9|Oxford Group concept of God?|

How did the Oxford Groups define God?  Was Ebby's statement to Bill W. ("Why don't you choose your own conception of God?") a reflection of Oxford Group's belief or did it come to him "out of the blue"?


| 11203|11203|2016-03-12 13:08:33|AAHistoryLovers|Who was the well-known transatlantic flier?|
From: Bob R. = rrecovery2002 (rriley9945 at aol.com)

While researching old newspapers for the Suffolk Intergroup (Long Island, NY) Archives, I came across this notice from the Long Island Traveler Mattituck Watchman (January 23, 1941): 

"There is a group called 'Alcoholics Anonymous' in New York, the moving spirit being a well-known transatlantic flier."  

I have heard Bill W called many things -- but never that, so they must be talking of someone else.  Any thoughts?
 
PS: If anyone is willing to share information from old United States AA Directories (pre-1970) or old New York Metropolitan meeting directories (pre-1965), it would be very helpful.

Thanks, Bob R

| 11204|11204|2016-03-12 13:11:32|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Atheist and agnostic groups: Jewish AA groups also?|
From: Shakey Mike = Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

I have never heard of Jewish AA. Are they located in the USA or Israel?

I know other AA's that would be interested in hearing about this. In my area, to the best of my knowledge, there is no secular AA. The long form of Tradition 10 comes to mind. 

YIS, Shakey Mike


| 11205|11204|2016-03-12 13:28:03|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Atheist and agnostic groups: Jewish AA groups also?|
Mike,

Oh yes, there are a vast number of books on Jewish interpretations of the twelve steps and how to use them in recovery from alcoholism and addiction, and there are many Jewish men and women in A.A. I have had a number of good Jewish friends in A.A., who worked impressively good and dedicated programs.

The only difference I have ever noticed is that Jews in A.A. are frequently suspicious of any idea of just sitting around and waiting for G-d's grace to do the work, and instead emphasize encouraging people to buckle down and use their will power to start doing the work that is necessary in order to get sober. But Roman Catholic teachers in A.A. (like Father Ralph Pfau and Ernie Kurtz) are apt to be similarly uncomfortable about people who talk about grace too much, while otherwise just sitting around on their thumbs and never lifting a hand to actually WORK their programs.

Just for myself, I try to avoid referring to Jesus when I am in A.A. circles (just as the Big Book does), because I have no desire to make Jewish A.A. members uncomfortable. That's just me now. But we already have enough problem with the references to G-d, so why make it any harder on ourselves? And if Moses our teacher said to do it, and the prophet Amos and the prophet Hosea, who am I to argue with that? One of my greatest teachers personally was a Roman Catholic deacon and psychotherapist who told me to deal with my problems by modeling myself on the behavior of the Jewish prophet Elisha and the great Jewish warrior chief Joshua, who did not fear the hordes of hostile forces surrounding them, but ventured forth into the struggle with full faith that G-d would never abandon nor forsake them.

Examples of important Jewish leaders and teachers in A.A. circles:

Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski is a Jewish rabbi and famous psychiatrist whose work specialized in the treatment of alcoholism and drug addiction. He was the founder and (until his retirement) the medical director of Gateway Rehabilitation Center in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He strongly supported A.A. in his own work with Jewish alcoholics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_J._Twerski

<>

In rabbinic Judaism, inside the human being are two basic impulses, the yetzer hatov (the good impulse) and the yetzer hara (the evil impulse). Rabbi Twerski explains why aloholics must stop drinking first, not insist on having someone prove to them in advance that the whole AA program can be logically proven to be correct:

"One does not enter into a discussion or argument with the yetzer hara. Whatever reasons you can propose for one position, the yetzer hara will give several logical reasons to the contrary ...."

SEE ALSO:

Twelve Jewish Steps to Recovery, by Rabbi Kerry M. Olitsky and Stuart A. Copans M.D., preface by Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski M.D. and Rabbi Sheldon Zimmerman.

http://www.amazon.com/Twelve-Jewish-Steps-Recovery-AddictionsDrugs/dp/1580234097


| 11206|11206|2016-03-12 13:38:26|AAHistoryLovers|Harry Anslinger and Bill W.|
From: mikerozza@ymail.com (mikerozza at ymail.com)

Is there any history of A.A. and Harry Anslinger ?

.......................................................
FROM THE MODERATOR:

Harry Anslinger and Charles Towns both played major political roles during the early twentieth century in getting the U.S. government to pass stringent laws against a number of mood-altering substances, including opium, heroin, morphine, cocaine, and marijuana. There had been no laws against the sale or possession of any kind of drugs in the U.S. prior to the early twentieth century. This is an important part of the societal context in which early AA developed.

See the article on Anslinger in wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

Harry Jacob Anslinger (May 20, 1892 – November 14, 1975) was United States government official who served as the first commissioner of the U.S. Treasury Department's Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN). He was a staunch supporter of prohibition and the criminalization of drugs, and played a pivotal role in cannabis prohibition. Anslinger held office an unprecedented 32 years in his role as commissioner until 1962. He then held office two years as U.S. Representative to the United Nations Narcotics Commission.

PROHIBITION PERIOD IN THE U.S. 1920 - 1933.

Prior to the end of alcohol prohibition, Anslinger had claimed that cannabis was not a problem, did not harm people, and “there is no more absurd fallacy” than the idea it makes people violent. His critics argue he shifted not due to objective evidence but due to the obsolescence of the Department of Prohibition he headed when alcohol prohibition ceased.

Of 30 leading scientists whose views he sought, 29 said cannabis did no harm. However, Anslinger chose to pursue only the views of the one who did. Anslinger sought and ultimately received, as head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, an increase of reports about smoking of marijuana in 1936 that continued to spread at an accelerated pace in 1937.

Before, smoking of marijuana had been relatively slight and confined to the Southwest, particularly along the Mexican border. The Bureau first prepared a legislative plan to seek from Congress a new law that would place marijuana and its distribution directly under federal control. Second, Anslinger ran a campaign against marijuana on radio and at major forums. His view was clear, ideological and judgemental:

“By the tons it is coming into this country — the deadly, dreadful poison that racks and tears not only the body, but the very heart and soul of every human being who once becomes a slave to it in any of its cruel and devastating forms.... Marihuana is a short cut to the insane asylum. Smoke marihuana cigarettes for a month and what was once your brain will be nothing but a storehouse of horrid specters. Hasheesh makes a murderer who kills for the love of killing out of the mildest mannered man who ever laughed at the idea that any habit could ever get him ....”

| 11207|11207|2016-03-12 13:43:38|AAHistoryLovers|Easy Does It: The Story of Mac, by Hugh Reilly|
From: Edward McGiveney = emcgjr1 (emcgjr1 at yahoo.com)

Looking for the real author of Easy Does It: The Story of Mac, by Hugh Reilly (pen name), published by P.J Kennedy & Sons, 1950. The forward is written by William D. Silkworth at the Knickerbocker Hospital in New York city.

Ed McGiveney (Gig Harbor, Washington)

.......................................................
FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:

If we use the little box at the very top of the message page

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages

and search for "Hugh Reilly" with quotation marks around it, we find that there has already been a lot of discussion about this question. It's best to begin by reading what these previous researchers found out:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4983

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4985

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4986

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4997

| 11208|11204|2016-03-12 17:35:11|Dudley Dobinson|Re: Atheist and agnostic groups: Jewish AA groups also?|
http://www.aa-israel.org/pages/meetingeng.htm

A simple google search gives a complete list of AA meetings in Israel. The link above includes meetings in hebrew and english. I hope this helps in your search. Dudley Birr,Ireland


 
From: Shakey Mike = Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

I have never heard of Jewish AA. Are they located in the USA or Israel?

I know other AA's that would be interested in hearing about this. In my area, to the best of my knowledge, there is no secular AA. The long form of Tradition 10 comes to mind. 

YIS, Shakey Mike


| 11209|4983|2016-03-14 17:45:16|emcgjr1|Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac|

Thanks Chris for your in depth write up on Easy Does It. I had obtained the book a while back and well it got my curiosity and I found many of your references in my own research. The only thing that sticks with me is Dr. Silkworth stepping out of character and that he wrote the forward to his own book left a unresolved question for me. So maybe we will never know a 100% but I too see that only those close to the circle at that time may he may be the source of a great book. I think if it were Bill he was not the kind of person that would keep things quiet.

So again thanks for the input and maybe in time this will be the answer. I too hate when things got lost about our history it leaves a whole in our quest.



VR

Ed McGiveney

Gig Harbor Wa

| 11210|11207|2016-03-14 17:45:29|emcgjr1|Re: Easy Does It: The Story of Mac, by Hugh Reilly|

Thanks and I had read all the references yet it is still  unresolved with a lot of good research and preponderance of evidence yet the Dr. wrote the Forward to his own book and may have been out of character that was a concern I had and in the end we may never know 100% the book is well done.


VR

Ed McGiveneny

Gig Harbor WA

| 11211|11207|2016-03-16 10:32:36|J. Lobdell|Re: Easy Does It: The Story of Mac, by Hugh Reilly|
per 1997 article suggest CET Charles E Towns not Colonel Edward Towns?
 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 21:42:49 +0000
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Easy Does It: The Story of Mac, by Hugh Reilly



From: Edward McGiveney = emcgjr1 (emcgjr1 at yahoo.com)

Looking for the real author of Easy Does It: The Story of Mac, by Hugh Reilly (pen name), published by P.J Kennedy & Sons, 1950. The forward is written by William D. Silkworth at the Knickerbocker Hospital in New York city.

Ed McGiveney (Gig Harbor, Washington)

.......................................................
FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:

If we use the little box at the very top of the message page

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages

and search for "Hugh Reilly" with quotation marks around it, we find that there has already been a lot of discussion about this question. It's best to begin by reading what these previous researchers found out:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4983

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4985

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4986

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/4997



| 11212|11212|2016-03-16 14:23:15|AAHistoryLovers|Stepping Stones Needs Our Help - A Quick Note Can Help|
Dear Friends Stepping Stones,
 
On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 8 p.m. a public hearing about the renewal of Stepping Stones’ Special Use Permit will be held. Stepping Stones hopes that you will consider showing your support by:
 
Attending the 3/17/16 hearing at 8 p.m. at the Bedford Town House, Court Room, 321 Bedford Road, Bedford Hills, NY 10507, in support of Stepping Stones. If you can attend the hearing on Thurs., please email info@steppingstones.org with your phone number and name so that I can tell you where we will meet ahead of time. Map showing Bedford Town House at:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/321+Bedford+Rd,+Bedford+Hills,+NY+10507/@41.2396659,-73.7017311,689m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c2b062171ed363:0x358c6307bda77f36!6m1!1e1 

Submitting a brief and courteous email of support by 3/16 to the Town of Bedford Town Board (see “how to” info below).
 
Sharing this email with friends who are supportive
 
Background and suggestions about emails of support follow.
 
BACKGROUND:
The historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson has welcomed visitors since the Wilsons moved to Bedford, NY in 1941. Bill W. wrote the book “The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions” and Lois co-founded Al-Anon Family Groups right at Stepping Stones.  In 1979 Lois Wilson established The Stepping Stones Foundation so that the property would remain available for generations to come. During her lifetime Stepping Stones was named to the NY State Register of Historic Places, it hosted an Annual Picnic and other events, and presented a seminar for leaders in the addiction field that laid the groundwork for educational and public awareness efforts that continue today. Lois served as Foundation President until her passing in 1988. The site has continued the mission that Lois set forth by welcoming a modest number of visitors annually. It received the honor of a National Historic Landmark designation in 2012 because of its importance in U.S. history. The site continues to operate with a low impact having only an average 7 tour visitors a day who come from around the world to learn about the lives and legacies of the Wilsons in the field of recovery from alcoholism. 
 
In 2015, concluding a process spanning several years, the Town Board of the Town of Bedford issued a one-year permit to the Stepping Stones. It included 49 operating conditions. That permit is up for renewal with the public hearing on 3/17/16. Stepping Stones hopes for a long-term permit of at least 10 years to be issued with no additional conditions.
 
Most similarly situated philanthropic organizations in Bedford are operating without permits or have permits that are renewable with the Planning Board. In a departure from that normal process, the Town is requiring Stepping Stones to renew with the Town Board. As Stepping Stones seeks a permit renewal, we ask the Town to please treat Stepping Stones just like the other philanthropic organizations and to issue a greater than 10-year permit with minimal conditions and to make that permit renewable with the Planning Board.
 
HOW TO SEND A SUPPORTIVE EMAIL BY WED. 3/17 at noon:
 
A sample email follows below
Start a brand new email (Do not include this note or forward this note in your new email.)
Address as follows (make up a subject that you like):
 
TO: supervisor@bedfordny.gov
 
CC: info@steppingstones.org
 
SUBJECT:  10-Year+ Permit for Stepping Stones
 
Write a short (a paragraph is fine), polite statement in your own words expressing your support to the Town Board for Stepping Stones to receive the same treatment as other groups by issuing it a longer than 10-year permit with minimal conditions and  renewal with the Planning Board.
Conclude with your name and address (Since this is an email that is part of the public record, it is advisable to exclude any affiliations with 12-Step organization for the sake of anonymity.)
 
Thank you for any help you can give Stepping Stones at this important time.
 
Sincerely,
The Stepping Stones Foundation
info@steppingstones.org
Office Tel. 914.232.4822
 
Sample Email of Support
 
March 14, 2016
 
Town of Bedford Town Board Members
c/o Town Supervisor Christopher Burdick
Via email: supervisor@bedfordny.gov
 
Dear Supervisor and Town Board Members:
 
I respectfully request that on March 17 the Town Board of the Town of Bedford issue Stepping Stones a Special Use Permit with a greater than 10-year term renewable through the Planning Board with minimal conditions.
 
Stepping Stones has proven worthy of a long-term permit because it has already complied with a steadily increasing list of conditions over the course of years. Stepping Stones complied during the phase when conditions were being drafted and redrafted. Stepping Stones continued to comply under the conditions of the Zoning Variance that was issued in Nov. 2013 by the Zoning Board. Stepping Stones once again continued to comply under the restrictions of the one-year Special Use Permit that was issued by the Town Board in March 2015. No other organization for the public good in Bedford has undergone a process as lengthy or involved as that of Stepping Stones, so I ask that you kindly consider concluding this process by issuing a permit of at least 10 years. Thank you.
 
Sincerely,


| 11213|11212|2016-03-16 14:23:31|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Stepping Stones Needs Our Help - A Quick Note Can Help|
On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Stepping Stones
wrote:
Dear Trustees,
 
Last week Stepping Stones was approached by the Journal News – the Lower Hudson Valley newspaper - regarding the Special Use Permit renewal letter submitted to the Town of Bedford by SSF. That letter can be found in the Board Meeting Packet that was sent to you via Priority Mail last Friday.
 
In consultation with attorney Whitney Singleton and John Koster, SSF responded to questions sent to us via email by the reporter. Later, Whitney responded to some follow up questions, and I provided a tour and photo opportunity.  The resulting story and video can be found at the following links. The print version ran on the first page of the paper on Sat.
 
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/bedford/2016/03/11/steppingstones-treated-unfairly/81519328/
 
http://www.lohud.com/videos/news/local/2016/03/11/81588946/
 
The Town Board’s Public Hearing regarding Stepping Stones’ renewal application is on Thursday, March 17 at 8 p.m. Prior to the hearing we will meet at Whitney’s office in Mt. Kisco at 7 p.m. His office and the hearing are near Metro North stations. If you can attend and/or if you can write a letter of support please see the details and suggestions below.
 
Sincerely,
Sally A. Corbett
Executive Director
Stepping Stones - Historic Home of Lois & Bill Wilson, 
co-founders of Al-Anon & AA respectively
62 Oak Road
Katonah, NY 10536
info@steppingstones.org
Office Tel. 914.232.4822

===================================
THE NEWSPAPER ARTICLE WHICH IS LINKED TO ABOVE:

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/bedford/2016/03/11/steppingstones-treated-unfairly/81519328/

KATONAH – Some visitors are moved to tears when they reach Stepping Stones, the longtime former home of Bill Wilson, a founder of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But Stepping Stones, a national historic landmark, is crying foul these days. It asserts that some town officials have discriminated against it, saddling it with a laborious and expensive permitting process and affecting its ability to carry out its mission.

In a strongly worded letter sent to the Bedford Town Board, Stepping Stones' lawyer, Whitney Singleton, argued that town officials allow other non-profits, such as the Caramoor Center for Music and the Arts, to operate with relative ease, often times — and unlike Stepping Stones — without even having to obtain special permits for their operations.

Singleton contends that he reviewed public records, under a Freedom-of-Information-Law request, and found that, of some 200 philanthropic uses that he believes would require a special permit under town regulations, only Stepping Stones, the Katonah Museum of Art and Westchester Land Trust have ever been required to get such permits. But while Stepping Stones has to renew its permit every year, the Westchester Land Trust does not, he said.

Singleton wrote that Caramoor has never been required to get a special permit for overall operations, though it was required to get one for a bathroom and storage area in its Venetian Theater. Meanwhile, he wrote, Stepping Stones is the only permit-holder under Town Board review while the others come under the town Planning Board.

“This is, by definition, discrimination in the most blatant and insidious form,” wrote Singleton, outlining “increasingly stringent conditions” and asking the town to end what he portrayed as “this ever-revolving door of municipal review."

The town's attorney, Joel H. Sachs, said every charitable organization is required to get a special permit from the Town Board or Planning Board, except for those that are grandfathered because they existed before the town adopted its zoning code. He said he didn't know how many such special-permit holders there were, but that he believes it's probably more than the figure in the letter.

The latest exchange comes as Stepping Stones moves to renew its permit and has asked the town to make it valid for 10 years. The Town Board is set to hold a public hearing Thursday but hasn't specified whether it would be for a one- or a 10-year permit.Separately, Stepping Stones is seeking Planning Board approval for a non-paved parking area.

If last year is a guide, the Town Board may hear plenty from all sides.

Last time around, Stepping Stones received support from 1,000 or more people from around the country. But several neighbors expressed concern over such things as traffic, the maximum number of people allowed for events, and the number of visitors that attend an annual picnic there.

Diane Briganti, a neighbor who lives across the street from Stepping Stones, questioned at a Town Board public hearing last year whether town officials had studied the safety of buses turning around in the area and expressed concern about property values.

"I actually do not care how many letters you received from people across the country,” Briganti told the board, according to a video of the hearing posted on the town's website. “How about the 11 families that live across from and next to the property that see it every day?”

Another neighbor said that, in past years, people who attended the picnic were in his driveway with coolers and there were cars and buses in the area making noise all day.

But representatives and supporters of Stepping Stones argued that the conditions were too restrictive. They said that for one-third of the year there are no visitors to the site. Stepping Stones has said it receives more than 2,000 visitors a year, but a large share of those only come to the annual picnic.

The board went on to approve a one-year permit, but with numerous conditions. Among them are that group visits and guided tours must be by reservation and only allowed Monday through Saturday at 1 p.m. Visitors for small events are capped at 50 a day. A maximum of three events of up to 100 people and another three of up to 200 people are allowed every year. The annual picnic is limited to 500 attendees. In addition, no vehicles longer than 28 feet or wider than 8.5 feet may be used to take visitors to the the site.

A blue sign on a nondescript driveway at 62 Oak Road directs visitors up the hill to Stepping Stones. Some visitors, the group's executive director said, tear up when they reach the  brown house with blue door, built in 1920 and, for many years, home to Bill and Lois Wilson, whom they believe saved them from addiction. Bill Wilson co-founded Alcoholics Anonymous, known for its 12-step program, while his wife co-founded Al-Anon, which helps families and friends of people struggling with alcohol abuse.

As a child, Lois, who was raised in a Brooklyn Heights townhouse, spent summers in Vermont, where she met Bill. He entered military service during World War I and was based in France. During the war, according to a biographical description at Stepping Stones, he began to drink heavily. Back in the United States, he became a stock market analyst, but drinking led to problems. Then the Great Depression hit and he could not find work. Lois and Bill tried to find ways to help him deal with alcoholism, but the drinking always held sway.

In 1934, a childhood friend told Bill Wilson he was sober with help from the religious organization the Oxford Group.

"He told Bill about the release from hopelessness that had come to him as a result of self-survey, restitution, outgoing helpfulness to others, and prayer," reads a description at the Stepping Stones visitor center. "In short, he was proposing the attitudes and principles that later developed into Alcoholics Anonymous' Twelve Steps to recovery."

Wilson met a doctor who was also battling alcoholism and they co-founded the recovery group that became AA.

At Stepping Stones, the second-floor room's walls are filled with framed photos of people whom they and AA helped.

There's a smaller building where Bill Wilson did his writing, which he called "the shack." Inside are his desk and a copy of a painting that shows two men in suits and ties attending to the bedside of another man. It's titled "Came to Believe," a phrase in Alcoholics Anonymous literature. And there's a visitors center that traces their lives: how the Wilsons met and how Bill Wilson helped create the philosophical tenants of Alcoholic Anonymous, including "Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How Many Thousands of Men and Women Have Recovered from Alcoholism," known as "The Big Book," which has been printed tens of millions of times in many languages.

In 1979, Lois Wilson established the Stepping Stones Foundation, and foundation representatives say they are carrying out her vision. Bill Wilson died in 1971 and his wife, in 1988.

The U.S. Department of the Interior designated Stepping Stones a national historic landmark in 2012.

Next month marks the 75th anniversary of the Wilsons' move to Katonah. The picnic, the 65th at the site, will be held June 4.

Sally Corbett, Stepping Stones' executive director, said the site draws people for whom a visit "is on their bucket list," along with history buffs, health professionals and people involved in recovery and in alcohol- and drug-abuse prevention.

She said some groups travel by bus to Bedford, where Stepping Stones arranges bus-parking in town lots, and visitors are then shuttled to the house.

"What you are experiencing now is what it's like the vast majority of the time here," Corbett told a visitor during a tour Thursday, as she stood outside the home, set amid a wooded aerie filled with the sound of warbling. "You hear more birds than people."
===================================

| 11214|11214|2016-03-16 15:57:27|Joshua Wolf Shenk|"just for today"|
Dear friends,

I’m posting here for the first time, though I’ve been reading and appreciating the list for some time. 

Is it known where the ideas of “one day at a time”/“just for today”/“just do the next right thing" first entered AA culture? From what I know of Bill Wilson’s faith in the early days, so infused by his own white light conversion, and a sense of immediate, dramatic change, it doesn’t seem like it would have come from him. 

Thanks,

Josh Shenk



-------
Joshua Wolf Shenk
Executive Director and Writer-in-Residence
The Beverly Rogers, Carol C. Harter Black Mountain Institute
www.blackmountaininstitute.org
| 11215|11215|2016-03-16 16:40:44|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Jewish AA groups|
This article is sent to us by PhilippeAA = mb11269@telenet.be (mb11269 at telenet.be)

http://www.kreizker.net/article-le-rabbin-abraham-twerski-et-sa-1-reunion-aa-en-1961-121317638.html

==================================
WITH A TELEVISED INTERVIEW WITH DR. TWERSKI -- fascinating and well worth listening to -- he talks about the decades long struggle to get more Jewish participation in and acceptance of the twelve step program. But every step of the twelve step program can be justified and defended from Torah. You don't have to say "God as we understood Him," you can say ha Shem* instead.
____________________________
*Orthodox Jews, out of respect for the word G-d, which should never be used carelessly or trivially, prefer to use some other phrase such as "ha Shem" ("the Name," meaning the Divine Name) or "the Holy One Blessed Be He" or some other phrase of that sort in ordinary conversation.
==================================

The web site quotes  from "Heritage - Florida Jewish News",  9 novembre 2012  

Twerski says synagogues “are finally opening their doors to 12 Step meetings.” With wry humor, he noted, “Even if a synagogue has an AA program, going is seen as a shandeh (disgrace). Jews are more likely to attend a meeting in a church where no one will recognize them.”

Twerski says AA program concepts are not “alien to Jewishness” and have great “compatibility” with Jewish theology. His interpretation of the “12 Steps” is an inherently Jewish one. Acknowledgement of a greater power that can restore health and wellbeing is a fundamental Talmudic belief. Recovery, according to Twerski, requires responsibility, and divine help will be forthcoming only when one does his share of the work.

He believes the treasury of Jewish tradition and learning has much to offer and that AA-style programs can be an invaluable ally for recovering Jews everywhere.

“As long as the brain is affected by chemicals, doctors can do nothing” 

................................................................

"Les synagogues ouvrent finalement leurs portes aux réunions en 12 étapes". Avec ironie, il note : "Même si une synagogue a une réunion AA, y aller est perçu comme une honte (shandeh, yidish) . Les juifs sont plus susceptibles d'assister à une réunion dans une église où l'on ne les reconnaît pas ".

Les concepts du programme des AA ne sont pas «étrangers à la judéité» et ont beaucoup de «compatibilité» avec la théologie juive. Son interprétation des «12 étapes» est intrinséquement juive. La reconnaissance d'une puissance supérieure qui peut restaurer santé et bien-être est une croyance talmudique fondamentale. Le rétablissement, selon Twerski, demande de la responsabilité, et l'aide divine ne viendra que quand on fait sa part du travail.

Il estime que le trésor de l'étude de la tradition juive a beaucoup à offrir et que les programmes AA peuvent être un allié précieux pour les Juifs en rétablissement partout.

"Tant que le cerveau est affecté par des substances chimiques, les médecins ne peuvent rien"


| 11216|11215|2016-03-16 16:40:55|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Jewish AA groups|
From: eze_kiel03 (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

The Jewish psychiatrist Max Glatt was a pioneer in the treatment of alcoholism in Britain beginning in the 1950s and 60s,  and a great friend of AA. 
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1396219/Max-Glatt.html

===============================
Max Meier Glatt was born into a Jewish family in Berlin on January 26 1912, the son of an insurance broker. As a young man he wanted to become a journalist, but didn't know how and chose medicine instead, gaining a doctorate in Neurological Medicine at Leipzig University in 1936.
He seemed destined for an academic career, and though he spent what he described as an "inordinate amount of time" going from one German university to another, looking for a professorship, the racial laws of the time made it almost impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment.
In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, Glatt tried to flee to Holland in a car full of fellow Jewish refugees, "mainly women, and one family with a little child". But the escape went wrong and they were apprehended near the border. "I jumped out of the car and ran away into the darkness," Glatt recalled, "but I felt I could not just abandon the women and children. So I returned to the car."
He was caught and imprisoned in Dachau. But he was soon deported to Britain where, after briefly settling at Sandwich, Kent, he was interned as an enemy alien on the Isle of Man, and subsequently transported aboard a prison ship to Australia. In 1942, however, he returned to Britain, intending to go back to Germany after the war. But when he discovered that both his parents had perished in Belsen, he decided to make his home in Britain. By this time, fearing that, as a German, he would be deported when English doctors returned from active service, he had drifted into psychiatry, an unpopular discipline at the time.
By the 1960s Glatt was working at St Bernard's Hospital in London, where his interest turned to drug addiction. As the casualties of the "swinging Sixties" poured into his wards, he lobbied the World Health Organisation to consider drug and alcohol addiction as similar problems.
===============================

===============================
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was among the first psychiatrists to recognise alcohol addiction as a disease, and played a leading role in developing treatment and rehabilitation services for alcoholics and drug addicts.
Until the 1950s, the government refused to recognise alcoholism as a disease requiring treatment like any other, and tended to stigmatise sufferers as social pariahs and moral defectives. The medical establishment had consigned policy-making to a Committee for Alcoholics and Vagrants - a title indicative of attitudes at the time; doctors had no idea of what to do with sufferers who came to them for help.
Glatt first came across alcoholics while working as a psychiatrist at Warlingham Park Hospital in Surrey. Many of his patients, he found, were highly intelligent people holding down important jobs; and, when they were not drinking, they displayed none of the "gutter" attributes society associated with drinkers ....
In 1952 Warlingham Park had set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism, which became the prototype for the health service. By the 1970s there were numerous NHS alcoholism units alongside the hundreds of Alcoholics Anonymous groups.
===============================

| 11217|11215|2016-03-16 16:41:09|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Jewish AA groups|
From: emcgjr1 (emcgjr1 at yahoo.com)

This a good start and yes they had groups but not in all 50 states and has been around for a while. I hope this sheds some light on the matter.

Jewish Alcoholics, Chemically Dependent Persons and Significant Others (JACS)

... at the Jewish Board of Family and Children’s Services, 135 West 50th St, New York, NY 10020.




| 11218|11215|2016-03-16 16:41:20|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Jewish AA groups|
From: Shakey Mike G. = (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Let me qualify: I know there are meetings in Israeli areas. I meant are there typically meetings that allow Jews only? Restrictive AA meetings like agnostic only, women only, or men only meetings, etc. 

YIS, Shakey Mike G
| 11219|11202|2016-03-16 16:41:22|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Oxford Group concept of God?|
From: jax760 (jax760 at yahoo.com)

The Oxford Group message (as it related to God) was about Jesus Christ. That was the message that Ebby carried to Bill. If you follow along in Bill's Story you'll read "To Christ I conceded the certainty of a great man...." Why would he have included that in his story if not for Ebby talking about "higher power" as in the teachings of the OG?

| 11220|11202|2016-03-16 16:41:39|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Oxford Group concept of God?|
See the article on the Hindsfoot site about "God As We Understood Him" at
http://www.hindsfoot.org/underst.html

.......................................................
ALSO SEE THE OLDER ARTICLE AT
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/aahistorylovers/conversations/messages/6931
where Glenn Chesnut refers to an article by Dick B. at:

============================================
DICK B.
http://www.aabibliography.com/dickbhtml/article25.html 

"'God as we understood Him' .... Where Did This Phrase Originate? .... the very probable, real source -- the Reverend Samuel Moor Shoemaker, Jr., Rector of Calvary Episcopal Church in New York .... Surrender As Much of Yourself As You Can to As Much of God As You Understand

So they prayed together, opening their minds to as much of God as he understood ... (Shoemaker, Children of the Second Birth, p. 47 ....)

So he said that he would surrender as much of himself as he could, to as much of Christ as he understood (Shoemaker, Children of the Second Birth, p. 25 .... See also, and compare In Memoriam Princeton, The Graduate Council, June 10, 1956, pp. 2-3; and Shoemaker, How to Become a Christian, p. 72).

The finding of God, moreover, is a progressive discovery; and there is so much more for all of us to learn about him. (Shoemaker, How to Find God, p. 1).

Begin honestly where you are. Horace Bushnell once said, Pray to the dim God, confessing the dimness for honesty's sake. I was with a man who prayed his first real prayer in these words: O God, if there be a God, help me now because I need it. God sent him help. He found faith. He found God. . . God will come through to you and make Himself known (Shoemaker, How to Find God, p. 6. See and compare: Alcoholics Anonymous, 3rd ed., p. 37: But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him. When we drew near to Him. He disclosed Himself to us! See also the Bible book so popular with the pioneers -- James: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you, James 4:8).

[A]ny honest person can begin the spiritual experiment by surrendering as much of himself as he can, to as much of Christ as he understands (Shoemaker, Extraordinary Living for Ordinary Men, p. 76 ....)

... said Sam in substance: You simply start where you are in your understanding. You surrender as much of yourself as you can. To as much of God as you understand. Then, added Sam, God will come through to you, make Himself known, and enable you to understand more. You will come to believe. You will find God, said Sam. God will make Himself known .... He will make known Himself -- God, our Creator!"
============================================

And also, Frank Buchman was definitely NOT an orthodox Lutheran. His ideas would never have held up to scrutiny by an orthodox Lutheran congregation that insisted on following the Augsburg Confession, Formula of Concord, and so on, let alone a super conservative Lutheran group like the Missouri Synod Lutherans.

The very fact that Frank was reading and associating with Episcopalians, and Congregationalists like Horace Bushnell, and even -- God forbid! -- METHODISTS !!! (who make orthodox Lutherans really ANGRY) -- was prima facie evidence that he was no longer preaching the true Gospel message. To a good orthodox Lutheran, the fact that Frank went around telling people without equivocation that "faith without works is dead" was just the sort of denial of the Gospel message that you would expect from someone who hung around with Episcopalians and -- in particular -- Methodists!

(Martin Luther himself said (rather famously) that "the epistle of James is a pile of straw and the book of Revelation doesn't reveal anything." He didn't like either of those two books of the New Testament, and believed that they led ordinary Christians astray.)

Also, if Ebby was preaching the message to Bill Wilson in Bill's kitchen in the way that the Oxford Group had taught him, he would not have been preaching like a frontier tent revivalist and haranguing Bill and telling him he had to get down on his knees and accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior right this minute or he would burn in the eternal fires of hell.

The OG was a rebellion (which started among the Protestant missionaries to countries like China and India) against that kind of frontier tent revivalist teaching. The OG way of carrying out life-changing (which was what they called it) was to use the 5 Cs:

1. Confidence -- the person carrying the message had to first gain the other person's confidence.

2. Confession -- the only way life-changers could do this was to begin by honestly telling the other person about all their own faults and failings.

3. Conviction -- the people whose lives you wanted to change, had to become convinced that their present spiritual condition was too miserable and horrible to endure any longer. They had to become WILLING TO CHANGE.
(How many Oxford Groupers did it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb had to really want to change.)

4. Conversion -- a real life changing event could only occur at that point. This was evidenced by a willingness, right on the spot, to go and make restitution to a small number of people at whom they had been holding major and obvious resentments.
(There was nothing in the Oxford Group even remotely like the AA fourth step's long written inventory and detailed spiritual self-diagnosis, nor the equally long and involved AA process of carrying out your eighth and ninth step amends.)

5. Continuance -- the life-changers had to remember that this was where the hard work began. The people whom you had been working on, had to be helped and encouraged in every possible way, to continue in this good new life which they had now chosen.

The Oxford Group developed out of late nineteenth and early twentieth century Protestant foreign missionary work in countries where the majority of the population were Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, or Confucianists. You cannot do effective missionary work among people who do not accept anything about Christianity at all -- who don't really even know anything much about genuine Christianity -- by insisting that they have to accept -- from the beginning and all in one fell swoop -- all of the hundreds of doctrines and dogmas that your particular form of Christianity adheres to. The reason why Frank Buchman and Sam Shoemaker were so effective at real life-changing was because they understood this.

Glenn C. (Fremont, California)
| 11221|11221|2016-03-16 16:41:55|AAHistoryLovers|Cebra Graves and Ebby Thacher|
From: Edward McGiveney = emcgjr1@yahoo.com (emcgjr1 at yahoo.com)

From back in 2006, some interesting material on Cebra Graves and Ebby Thacher:

In the form of a very detailed article on CEBRA GRAVES by the well-known AA historian Jared Lobdell:

http://library.brown.edu/collections/kirk/casq/CASQ_July06.pdf

which also appears as AAHistoryLovers message no. 5490 message 2 of 2

================================
BACKGROUND (from the moderator Glenn C): THE EVENTS OF 1934

In Bennington, Vermont, in 1934 Ebby Thacher was going to be sentenced to six months in Windsor Prison for repeated drunkenness. Three Oxford Groupers appeared at the court hearing -- Cebra Graves (an attorney who lived in Bennington, whose father was the judge), Shep Cornell (F. Shepard Cornell, a New Yorker who liked to spend his summers in Manchester, Vermont), and Rowland Hazzard III (who had tried to deal with his own alcoholism, upon the advice of the famous psychiatrist Carl Jung, by seeking a spiritual answer) -- and got the court to bind over Ebby to Rowland. Ebby was persuaded to become involved in the Oxford Group himself, and stopped drinking, and eventually carried the message to Bill Wilson, who in turn got sober and became the co-founder of AA.
================================

| 11222|11215|2016-03-17 09:10:36|Jonathan Stewart|Re: Jewish AA groups|
Glatt is a controversial figure.  When I was a less critical member of AA I thought he was a genius. Now I'm less sure.  It's possible his work was accepted in AA because it did so much to provide a patina of research authenticity over the William James thesis that alcoholics must reach some kind of rock bottom. It seemed to endorse AA's basic tenets. Today much of what Glatt proposed is no longer accepted in medicine. I'm at work so have little time to support this statement - sorry about that - but when I looked into it with a more open mind I was surprised at how thin his original data was. Jon S


From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2016, 23:01
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jewish AA groups

 
From: eze_kiel03 (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

The Jewish psychiatrist Max Glatt was a pioneer in the treatment of alcoholism in Britain beginning in the 1950s and 60s,  and a great friend of AA. 
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1396219/Max-Glatt.html

===============================
Max Meier Glatt was born into a Jewish family in Berlin on January 26 1912, the son of an insurance broker. As a young man he wanted to become a journalist, but didn't know how and chose medicine instead, gaining a doctorate in Neurological Medicine at Leipzig University in 1936.
He seemed destined for an academic career, and though he spent what he described as an "inordinate amount of time" going from one German university to another, looking for a professorship, the racial laws of the time made it almost impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment.
In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, Glatt tried to flee to Holland in a car full of fellow Jewish refugees, "mainly women, and one family with a little child". But the escape went wrong and they were apprehended near the border. "I jumped out of the car and ran away into the darkness," Glatt recalled, "but I felt I could not just abandon the women and children. So I returned to the car."
He was caught and imprisoned in Dachau. But he was soon deported to Britain where, after briefly settling at Sandwich, Kent, he was interned as an enemy alien on the Isle of Man, and subsequently transported aboard a prison ship to Australia. In 1942, however, he returned to Britain, intending to go back to Germany after the war. But when he discovered that both his parents had perished in Belsen, he decided to make his home in Britain. By this time, fearing that, as a German, he would be deported when English doctors returned from active service, he had drifted into psychiatry, an unpopular discipline at the time.
By the 1960s Glatt was working at St Bernard's Hospital in London, where his interest turned to drug addiction. As the casualties of the "swing ing Sixties" poured into his wards, he lobbied the World Health Organisation to consider drug and alcohol addiction as similar problems.
===============================

===============================
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was among the first psychiatrists to recognise alcohol addiction as a disease, and played a leading role in developing treatment and rehabilitation services for alcoholics and drug addicts.
Until the 1950s, the government refused to recognise alcoholism as a disease requiring treatment like any other, and tended to stigmatise sufferers as social pariahs and moral defectives. The medical establishment had consigned pol icy-making to a Committee for Alcoholics and Vagrants - a title indicative of attitudes at the time; doctors had no idea of what to do with sufferers who came to them for help.
Glatt first came across alcoholics while working as a psychiatrist at Warlingham Park Hospital in Surrey. Many of his patients, he found, were highly intelligent people holding down important jobs; and, when they were not drinking, they displayed none of the "gutter" attributes society associated with drinkers ....
In 1952 Warlingham Park had set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism, which became the prototype for the health service. By the 1970s there were numerous NHS alcoholism units alongside the hundreds of Alcoholics Anonymous groups.
===============================



| 11223|11223|2016-03-23 12:52:50|Glenn Chesnut|Re: Oxford Group? or Jimmy Burwell?|
.......................................................
#1. EBBY THACHER AND BILL WILSON

In the Big Book, on page 12, it describes Ebby's visit to Bill Wilson, where Bill at first rejects the idea of having to believe in a personal God whose presence he could feel at some kind of immediate intuitive level (like his experience of the sacred while standing inside Winchester Cathedral in 1918 and looking up at the light coming through the windows, see second photograph on Alcoholics Anonymous Archival and Historical Materials Part 2


and the two photographs on A.A. History Lovers



===============================
BIG BOOK p. 12

Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice.  The word God still aroused a certain antipathy.  When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified.  I didn't like the idea.  I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be.  I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way.

My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "WHY DON'T YOU CHOOSE YOUR OWN CONCEPTION OF GOD?"

That statement hit me hard.  It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years.  I stood in the sunlight at last.

IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF BEING WILLING TO BELIEVE IN A POWER GREATER THAN MYSELF.  NOTHING MORE WAS REQUIRED OF ME TO MAKE MY BEGINNING.  I saw that growth could start from that point.  Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it?  Of course I would!

Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want Him enough.  At long last I saw, I felt, I believed.  Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes.  A new world came into view.

The real significance of my experience in the Cathedral burst upon me.  For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted God.  There had been a humble willingness to have Him with me -- and He came.  But soon the sense of His presence had been blotted out by worldly clamors, mostly those within myself.  And so it had been ever since.  How blind I had been.
===============================

Also see Rudolf Otto on our ability to feel or intuit the sacred or holy


The two classic works among historians of religion and social anthropologists are:

Rudolf Otto, The Idea of the Holy: An Inquiry into the Non-Rational Factor in the Idea of the Divine and Its Relation to the Rational, 2nd ed., trans. John W. Harvey (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1950). The German original was entitled Das Heilige: Über das Irrationale in der Idee des göttlichen und sein Verhältnis zum Rationalen, 11th ed. (Stuttgart:
Friedrich Andreas Perthes, 1923).

The sacred or holy in German, Rudolf Otto said, was a matter of "feeling" or Gefühl, that it, it was an intuitive awareness or "hint of the infinite" what went far deeper than mere rational arguments and purely intellectual concepts -- this word Gefühl gets us past confusion over the often quite rationalistic connotations of the word geistlich in German, which is often used to translate the English word "spiritual," but in a way that can sometimes be very misleading to native German speakers.

To understand what Bill Wilson meant by a "fourth dimension" in which God dwelt, also see this book, which I had all my students over the years read in my courses on ancient Greek and Roman religion (Eliade's little book is a work whose observations in fact apply to all kinds of religion, both primitive and advanced, all around the earth, from all periods of history):

Mircea Eliade, The Sacred and the Profane: the Nature of Religion, trans. Willard R. Trask (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1959). 

.......................................................
#2. JIMMY BURWELL AND STEPS 3 + 11

Jimmy Burwell was indeed the one who insisted on adding the particular phrase "as we understood Him" to Steps 3 and 11. For Jimmy's whole story see





which says that:

' Jim Burwell's influence on Bill Wilson in the writing of the Big Book was described by Wilson himself in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age. Jim militantly opposed the usage of the word "God" in consistent adherence to his agnostic philosophy. A compromise was negotiated between Wilson and Burwell with the literary employment of such terms as "power greater than ourselves." '

.......................................................
#3. THE DEEPER BACKGROUND: SAM SHOEMAKER + THE OXFORD GROUP

But for the deeper background, we need to go back to some of the things that the Rev. Sam Shoemaker was teaching, in his role as head of the Oxford Group in the United States. See http://www.aabibliography.com/dickbhtml/article25.html

In various kinds of wording, the Rev. Shoemaker was advising atheists and skeptics to Surrender As Much of Yourself As You Can to As Much of God As You Understand.

This was likely the original source of the advice which Ebby gave to Bill Wilson, and in particular the special wording of the phrase which the early AA people decided to attach to Steps 3 and 11, which is pretty close to an exact quote from the Rev. Shoemaker in a couple of places.

____________________________

Original message from: DALOZANO (dalozano at yahoo.com)

On the phrase about God "as we understood Him." Why Oxford Group? I thought Jimmy Burwell said that, isn't that in the 12&12 or AA Comes of Age? 


| 11224|11223|2016-03-23 12:56:32|AAHistoryLovers|Oxford Group? or Jimmy Burwell?|
From: DALOZANO (dalozano at yahoo.com)

On the phrase about God "as we understood Him": 

Why Oxford Group? I thought Jimmy Burwell said that, isn't that in the 12&12 or AA Comes of Age? 

| 11225|11215|2016-03-23 13:35:30|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Jewish AA groups|
He was a pioneer; others built on his achievements. he helped countless alcoholics.  
 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:23:55 +0000
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jewish AA groups

 
Glatt is a controversial figure.  When I was a less critical member of AA I thought he was a genius. Now I'm less sure.  It's possible his work was accepted in AA because it did so much to provide a patina of research authenticity over the William James thesis that alcoholics must reach some kind of rock bottom. It seemed to endorse AA's basic tenets. Today much of what Glatt proposed is no longer accepted in medicine. I'm at work so have little time to support this statement - sorry about that - but when I looked into it with a more open mind I was surprised at how thin his original data was. Jon S


From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2016, 23:01
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jewish AA groups

 
From: eze_kiel03 (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

The Jewish psychiatrist Max Glatt was a pioneer in the treatment of alcoholism in Britain beginning in the 1950s and 60s,  and a great friend of AA. 
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1396219/Max-Glatt.html

===============================
Max Meier Glatt was born into a Jewish family in Berlin on January 26 1912, the son of an insurance broker. As a young man he wanted to become a journalist, but didn't know how and chose medicine instead, gaining a doctorate in Neurological Medicine at Leipzig University in 1936.
He seemed destined for an academic career, and though he spent what he described as an "inordinate amount of time" going from one German university to another, looking for a professorship, the racial laws of the time made it almost impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment.
In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, Glatt tried to flee to Holland in a car full of fellow Jewish refugees, "mainly women, and one family with a little child". But the escape went wrong and they were apprehended near the border. "I jumped out of the car and ran away into the darkness," Glatt recalled, "but I felt I could not just abandon the women and children. So I returned to the car."
He was caught and imprisoned in Dachau. But he was soon deported to Britain where, after briefly settling at Sandwich, Kent, he was interned as an enemy alien on the Isle of Man, and subsequently transported aboard a prison ship to Australia. In 1942, however, he returned to Britain, intending to go back to Germany after the war. But when he discovered that both his parents had perished in Belsen, he decided to make his home in Britain. By this time, fearing that, as a German, he would be deported when English doctors returned from active service, he had drifted into psychiatry, an unpopular discipline at the time.
By the 1960s Glatt was working at St Bernard's Hospital in London, where his interest turned to drug addiction. As the casualties of the "swing ing Sixties" poured into his wards, he lobbied the World Health Organisation to consider drug and alcohol addiction as similar problems.
===============================

===============================
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was among the first psychiatrists to recognise alcohol addiction as a disease, and played a leading role in developing treatment and rehabilitation services for alcoholics and drug addicts.
Until the 1950s, the government refused to recognise alcoholism as a disease requiring treatment like any other, and tended to stigmatise sufferers as social pariahs and moral defectives. The medical establishment had consigned pol icy-making to a Committee for Alcoholics and Vagrants - a title indicative of attitudes at the time; doctors had no idea of what to do with sufferers who came to them for help.
Glatt first came across alcoholics while working as a psychiatrist at Warlingham Park Hospital in Surrey. Many of his patients, he found, were highly intelligent people holding down important jobs; and, when they were not drinking, they displayed none of the "gutter" attributes society associated with drinkers ....
In 1952 Warlingham Park had set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism, which became the prototype for the health service. By the 1970s there were numerous NHS alcoholism units alongside the hundreds of Alcoholics Anonymous groups.
===============================




| 11226|11226|2016-03-23 13:58:54|AAHistoryLovers|Re: Jewish AA groups and E. M. Jellinek|
From: Jonathan Stewart = jonsleeper@btopenworld.com (jonsleeper at btopenworld.com)

Of course E. Morton Jellinek, whose work Glatt drew on, was also Jewish.

 -- JS
_______________________________

FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR:

Jellinek was born in New York City, where his parents were Hungarian Jewish immigrants, so there was a Jewish family background there. Not sure about whether he was a practicing Jew or religious in any way -- nothing in the literature which I have read says anything about it. Does anyone know?

See the excellent article on Jellinek at

http://www.roizen.com/ron/jellinek-pres.htm

written by the well known alcoholism researcher
Ron Roizen, Ph.D. 
Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences 
University of California, San Francisco 
Box 0612, Laurel Heights 
San Francisco, CA 94143-0612

| 11227|11215|2016-03-24 09:24:00|Jonathan Stewart|Re: Jewish AA groups|
I think I was too harsh on Max Glatt. I apologise and take that back. He got a very warm obituary in the Guardian. 




From: "Jenny or Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 March 2016, 17:14
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jewish AA groups

 
He was a pioneer; others built on his achievements. he helped countless alcoholics.  
 

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:23:55 +0000
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jewish AA groups

 
Glatt is a controversial figure.  When I was a less critical member of AA I thought he was a genius. Now I'm less sure.  It's possible his work was accepted in AA because it did so much to provide a patina of research authenticity over the William James thesis that alcoholics must reach some kind of rock bottom. It seemed to endorse AA's basic tenets. Today much of what Glatt proposed is no longer accepted in medicine. I'm at work so have little time to support this statement - sorry about that - but when I looked into it with a more open mind I was surprised at how thin his original data was. Jon S


From: "AAHistoryLovers hfbk628-aahl@yahoo.com [AAHistoryLovers]"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2016, 23:01
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jewish AA groups

 
From: eze_kiel03 (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

The Jewish psychiatrist Max Glatt was a pioneer in the treatment of alcoholism in Britain beginning in the 1950s and 60s,  and a great friend of AA. 
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1396219/Max-Glatt.html

===============================
Max Meier Glatt was born into a Jewish family in Berlin on January 26 1912, the son of an insurance broker. As a young man he wanted to become a journalist, but didn't know how and chose medicine instead, gaining a doctorate in Neurological Medicine at Leipzig University in 1936.
He seemed destined for an academic career, and though he spent what he described as an "inordinate a mount of time" going from one German university to another, looking for a professorship, the racial laws of the time made it almost impossible for Jews to gain a university appointment.
In 1938, after the Kristallnacht pogrom, Glatt tried to flee to Holland in a car full of fellow Jewish refugees, "mainly women, and one family with a little child". But the escape went wrong and they were apprehended near the border. "I jumped out of the car and ran away into the darkness," Glatt recalled, "but I felt I could not just abandon the women and children. So I returned to the car."
He was caught and imprisoned in Dachau. But he was soon deported to Britain where, after briefly settling at Sandwich, Kent, he was interned as an enemy alien on the Isle of Man, and subsequently transported aboard a prison ship to Australia. In 1942, however, he returned to Britain, intending to go back to Germany after the war. But when he discovered that both his parents had perished in Belsen, he decided to make his home in Britain. By this time, fearing that, as a German, he would be deported when English doctors returned from active service, he had drifted into psychiatry, an unpopular discipline at the time.
By the 1960s Glatt was working at St Bernard's Hospital in Lond on, where his interest turned to drug addiction. As the casualties of the "swing ing Sixties" poured into his wards, he lobbied the World Health Organisation to consider drug and alcohol addiction as similar problems.
===============================

===============================
Max Glatt, who has died aged 90, was among the first psychiatrists to recognise alcohol addiction as a disease, and played a leading role in developing treatment and rehabilitation services for alcoholics and drug addicts.
Until the 1950s, the government refused to recognise alcoholism as a disease requiring treatment like any other, and tended to stigmatise sufferers as social pariahs and moral defectives. The medical establishment had consigned pol icy-making to a Committee for Alcoholics and Vagrants - a title indicative of attitudes at the time; doctors had no idea of what to do with sufferers who came to them for help.
Glatt first came across alcoholics while working as a psychiatrist at Warlingham Park Hospital in Surrey. Many of his patients, he found, were highly intelligent people holding down important jobs; and, when they were not drinking, they displayed none of the "gutter" attributes society associated with drinkers ....
In 1952 Warlingham Park had set up the first NHS unit for the treatment of alcoholism, which became the prototype for the health service. By the 1970s there were numerous NHS alcoholism units alongside the hundreds of Alcoholics Anonymous groups.
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| 11228|11228|2016-03-29 09:26:49|shakey1aa|Roger B. Carries the A.A. message.|

     I have been looking at the early meeting lists of Philadelphia that were kept by Jimmy Burwell,who was if not AA"s 1st Archivist,at least it's 1st Historian, in  his "Scrapbook." I have, in just looking at the full names, addresses and phone numbers, came upon the name Roger B.(Bowman) who is listed in the 1st Meeting list(July,1940).

      He is listed as Roger A. Bowman 107 S.21st St. Phila, PA. with a phone number of LOC.9296. No one else has that address or phone number. In the Oct 1940 meeting list, He has moved to 427 S.40th St. Phila.Pa. phone number BAR.1414.

     He is not listed in the December,13,1940 letter to Dr.Stouffer by Dr. Dudley Saul. This  letter of P.G.H. (Phila. General Hospital) patients that got sober is notable because it's figures were used in the SEP (Saturday Evening Post ) Jack Alexander Article about A,A. I would therefore assume He did not come into A.A. through P.G.H.

     Roger is listed in the March 1941 Philadelphia A.A. Meeting list under "Metropolitan and New Jersey Members"as Roger Bowman residing at the Hotel Allisonia,13th and Market St.,Harrisburg, PA. He is at this same address in the April 1941 meeting list. No one else from Harrisburg is listed.

      I am looking for more info on this man who carried the message to Harrisburg.

      I have a copy of a pamphlet  dated June 30,1986 that gives Roger credit for being the first sober man in that area.The first Meeting in Harrisburg is listed as June 1.1941. It says He had a slip but continued in A.A. He is no longer listed as a Philadelphia member in the November 1941 and June 1942 meeting lists. They have only local members. They no longer listed Metropolitan members. At this point I believe the Mother Groups were now starting Neighborhood groups.

     In the "Memorandum to the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation", the end of 1941, Harrisburg is listed as contributing $10.00 to New York and the membership is 18.

The secretary is RW Walklis PO Box 588,5 N5th St. Harrisburg.

The 1986 history is called,"A Report of the Beginning and Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous in Harrisburg and its surrounding Communities."It inaccurately refers to GSO where it should be "Alcoholic Foundation.


Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila,PA.

NAAAW in San.Fran. Area this year.c u there?

"


| 11229|11215|2016-03-29 10:16:28|Jenny or Laurie Andrews|Re: Jewish AA groups|
Of course, he and Jellinek didn't get everything right but they were trail-blazers in the field. It's a bit like Silkworth's theory of an allergy to alcohol; not scientifically precise but perhaps a useful metaphor. I heard Glatt speak at an AA convention in the 1980s. I can only remember two things he said: 'I wish I could be an alcoholic for half and hour to know what it felt like'; and: 'I know hundreds of recovered alcoholics.' He took the view that we are not recovering till the day we die!

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 23:34:14 +0000
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Jewish AA groups

 
I think I was too harsh on Max Glatt. I apologise and take that back. He got a very warm obituary in the Guardian.